Spoilers With Speculation

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I did a "shot by shot" of the "2 in 1" promo.  I slowed it down to .25 speed and played it on my HD 24 in screen.  I'll list the shots w/ my commentary in italics

Thank you for taking the time to dissect all of that! <3

[SueB]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

I think it is Bobby. The longer I look at that picture, the more convinced I am. 

I really hope so to be honest.  And Boy oh Boy -- Bobby could chew on Mary for a while.  Be my guest. 

12 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Are you sure of this Sue? I trust your judgment but I thought one was Sam's.

Well it does look similar to Sams but the setting seems too old.  Maybe it's Mary's crib before it's Sam's?  

[Mick Lady]

The more I read you guys, the more I'm convinced it's Bobby. But how, (and why) would that happen?

But I do agree, I'd love to see Bobby rip into Mary!

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

I really hope so to be honest.  And Boy oh Boy -- Bobby could chew on Mary for a while.  Be my guest. 

Well it does look similar to Sams but the setting seems too old.  Maybe it's Mary's crib before it's Sam's?  

Given the continuity on this show, I never know.

I, for one, (and Mick too) can't wait for next week! I'm such a sucker for this show. At this point, nothing could make me stop watching! 

Although, I'd like to think the writers read here and say "Oh my Chuck! Mick Lady has stopped watching the show! We must change the script! Call in the Guys, ASAP!"

Edited May 13, 2017 by Mick Lady

[rue721]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Well it does look similar to Sams but the setting seems too old.

The layout of the house looks like the Winchesters' in Lawrence, so I think it probably is Sam's crib. The living room's furniture looks like it was arranged like it was when Azazel showed up, and that looks like their old staircase. Obviously, Sam's crib wasn't really in the living room, though, which makes me think it's a dreamscape of their old house.

I don't think that Cas is seeing Dean at the end. His tone of voice seems too exasperated for him to be talking to Dean IMO. I think it's probably someone he knows pretty well but who he doesn't feel like bothering with currently. TBH right now I think John is the best bet, but it could really be anyone on the fringes of the show (including Lucifer or Crowley).

The guy with the kufiya is definitely not Sam or Dean IMO because of the paunch. Could be Crowley. Bobby is the dark horse candidate there IMO.

And by the way, that promo is fucking awesome. Just had to mention that. :)

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I think it is Bobby. The longer I look at that picture, the more convinced I am. 

When Jim B. first took to twitter and tweeted how he was worried this would be the first season he wasn't on Supernatural.   Shortly after Jim Michaels tweeted that they were writing something for him and then the tweet mysteriously disappeared. 

The reason I think its Mary in the physical confrontation with Ketch is because, Ketch looks surprised.  Like he couldn't believe that Mary would turn on him.  He wouldn't look like that if Dean was attacking him. 

I wonder if Dean's leg gets broken by Ketch and that is what finally brings Mary around.

Dean's face where he is all cut up reminded me instantly of Dean during Thinman.  The eyes seem like they have no life in them,

Edited May 13, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ok let me see if I can decipher the plot from these photos:

So a betrayed and scorned Lady Toni and the Winchesters escape, steal back Mary (against her will), take her back to the bunker where Lady T helps Dean get into Mary's mind to unbrainwash her. A pissed Ketch breaks back into the bunker where they have another showdown.

But then Jodi's all like "surprise Bitch, it's season finale time!" But Sam's all "not yet; let me and my hair walk all suave-like through this sexily-lit hallway first. But then you and other hunter come in behind me. Trust me, it will be more intimidating for the BMoL." And then they kill NotUmbridge offscreen because really who cares.

So then Mary's A-OK again and she's like "boys, we should talk". Dean's all "why", to which Mary replies "because it's a 2-hour season finale. Sam, stop giving me the puppy-dog eyes, you know we have to pad for time and wait for Lucifer's phone call".

Lucy calls, prompting Cas to go "....shit, I'm in this series, aren't I?" and contact the Winchesters. The 3 Amigos go out to meet Lucifer, clearly unimpressed with his new outfit. But he's Lucifer; he doesn't care. So he proudly displays it for them anyway. But later Cas is like "damn... that outfit was hot!" and re-thinks his decision to always wear that same old trenchcoat (this will officially be the cliffhanger, btw)

Meanwhile Mary is on Kelly-sitting duty because wimins bonding over babies amirite guys?

51 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

- Sam, Dean and I think Lucifer show up at the Lake House -- I'm struggling with the two different cribs (one in a 60's living room, one in nephilim baby's bedroom... neither are Sams')

Maybe it's Dean's crib and Mary and John are living in a house with older decor?

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

I really hope so to be honest.  And Boy oh Boy -- Bobby could chew on Mary for a while.  Be my guest. 

I would love for it to be Bobby. A confrontation between him and Mary would be awesome!

[catrox14]

Oh, if it's Bobby then maybe that place is Heaven's Prison  Camp. Maybe that is where Bobby and other Heaven  scofflaws are sent to work or something. Or you have to do something to earn your way back into Heaven.  Or it's a punishment that if you can't enjoy Heaven, and you escape then you don't really deserve Hell but you don't deserve peace either. Hmmm

Edited May 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Jonesy]

Some are speculating Cas sees Gabriel at end of the preview--I would love that!  Too hard to say though.

[CluelessDrifter]

9 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Some are speculating Cas sees Gabriel at end of the preview--I would love that!  Too hard to say though.

I was wondering if it could be Gabriel too, just because of his tone and the familiar kind of way he says it.

[catrox14]

I'd be down for it being Benny too. I could see him saying it that way for Benny.  Not particularly fond IMO but knowing who it is.

[ZennyKenny]

52 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I would love for it to be Bobby. A confrontation between him and Mary would be awesome!

Mary: "Yeah, but Bobby-"

Bobby: "Do I sound like I'm done Princess?"

 

OH GOD SOMEONE WRITE A FANFIC OF THIS NOW!!!

[flyinghigh]

2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Ok let me see if I can decipher the plot from these photos:

So a betrayed and scorned Lady Toni and the Winchesters escape, steal back Mary (against her will), take her back to the bunker where Lady T helps Dean get into Mary's mind to unbrainwash her. A pissed Ketch breaks back into the bunker where they have another showdown.

But then Jodi's all like "surprise Bitch, it's season finale time!" But Sam's all "not yet; let me and my hair walk all suave-like through this sexily-lit hallway first. But then you and other hunter come in behind me. Trust me, it will be more intimidating for the BMoL." And then they kill NotUmbridge offscreen because really who cares.

So then Mary's A-OK again and she's like "boys, we should talk". Dean's all "why", to which Mary replies "because it's a 2-hour season finale. Sam, stop giving me the puppy-dog eyes, you know we have to pad for time and wait for Lucifer's phone call".

Lucy calls, prompting Cas to go "....shit, I'm in this series, aren't I?" and contact the Winchesters. The 3 Amigos go out to meet Lucifer, clearly unimpressed with his new outfit. But he's Lucifer; he doesn't care. So he proudly displays it for them anyway. But later Cas is like "damn... that outfit was hot!" and re-thinks his decision to always wear that same old trenchcoat (this will officially be the cliffhanger, btw)

Meanwhile Mary is on Kelly-sitting duty because wimins bonding over babies amirite guys?

Thank you!! Perfect !!

Needed to smile so much after 1221.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Note: I have not watched this week's ep yet (traveling, don't have time) so this may well be a moot point, but:

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's a problem though. They introduce the topic, show Sam being mind raped, and then drop it forever. I don't think Sam has to go into all the detail about but IMO, they should have him at least acknowledge it happened. I would appreciate one minor exchange between Dean and Sam where Sam says..something like "She did things to me. Made me feel things about her that I did not feel nor want to feel.".  Dean looks at Sam knowingly, thinking about how Amara controlled him, and says, "I get it, Sam. If you want to talk, you know where I am".  Just a simple thing that acknowledges what she did to him and that it's not being ignored by the narrative.

I'd be okay with that. 

2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

But Sam's all "not yet; let me and my hair walk all suave-like through this sexily-lit hallway first.

I'm okay with that too.  ;)

[Mick Lady]

58 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Some are speculating Cas sees Gabriel at end of the preview--I would love that!  Too hard to say though.

I love Gabriel, but don't want him to betray Cas! Maybe he's saving him?

[nightwing877]

12 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

After watching today's episode, I think so too.  But whether it will be one of the brothers, I am not sure. Earlier, I thought she will be given some sort of redemption arc and will be taken to season 13. Not after today's episode. I think somewhere she crossed a line - killing that hunter in the manner she did or threatening her sons - IMO - she would die before the season ends

Yeah I had hoped she was going to get redemption for season 13. Don't think so after what she did. 

7 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

This picture shows what I was thinking the difference was. And I'm with you. It bothers me when they shoot in a way that it magnifies the height difference between any of them that dramatically. If Jensen is on an elevated spot, you would think they would move everybody a couple feet onto level ground.

Video kind of answers the question. Mary dies this season. Goodbye Mary.

Yeah like we didn't expect this. Lucifer will kill her in the final, and expect Mary and the brothers mend fences at the start of 12.23, and Mary saying she is going to stay now and hang around and get to know them better etc. all leading to her death later in the final. 

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, nightwing877 said:

Yeah I had hoped she was going to get redemption for season 13. Don't think so after what she did. 

Yeah like we didn't expect this. Lucifer will kill her in the final, and expect Mary and the brothers mend fences at the start of 12.23, and Mary saying she is going to stay now and hang around and get to know them better etc. all leading to her death later in the final. 

Sounds about as original as these guys can be.

[SueB]

I like Gabriel as an option as well. 

[Wayward Son]

Urgh, I hope it's not awful Benny! He ties Jo for the title of Least Favourite Character on the Show Ever

[mertensia]

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

).

The guy with the kufiya is definitely not Sam or Dean IMO because of the paunch. Could be Crowley. Bobby is the dark horse candidate there IMO.

 

It's Yasser Arafat.

[Aeryn13]

I would love for it to be Benny but there is really no way I see that happening.

Bobby, yes, that`s a lot more likely. I guess I didn`t think of him because I find the idea anticlimactic and lame. Why did he turn into the lonesome warriror? What is he gonna bring to this final fight? That gun? His randomely popping up Gary Stu powers? Sam and Mary are already there so that is getting really overcrowded.

And I can never see Bobby laying into Mary. If anyone gets a "boohoo princess" speech, it won`t be her. It will be someone who names has four letters and starts with a D.   

If it`s an ally figure, it makes sense why Dean seems to use the same gun later on.  

As for the fight in the bunker, you can`t see who Ketch is fighting. Just Lady Deadeyes behind him, Ketch bloodied and with a knife and then sailing through the air. Since Dean is in a vulnerable position aka in the spell, Ketch probably is about to stab him, Mary "wakes" up and then tosses him through the air. This is the most likely scenario for this show.

I`d much rather see Dean in the action than sitting in a chair, trying to reach Mary some more. I feel like he has been doing that all over the Season. Hopefully he is at least involved in planning and getting the other hunters together, if not in the actually exciting set pieces. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

Just not feelin' it for these pics or even the promo and this even though the promo is good. Apathy has set in again. FutureDean being the mystery person would help to soothe/cure that, but Dabb is still the showrunner so it's far more likely that, yes, it's Bobby.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Bobby, yes, that`s a lot more likely. I guess I didn`t think of him because I find the idea anticlimactic and lame. Why did he turn into the lonesome warriror? What is he gonna bring to this final fight? That gun? His randomely popping up Gary Stu powers? Sam and Mary are already there so that is getting really overcrowded.

 I'm so over Bobby. I hope it's not him for these reasons also, but I'd bet the ranch that this is where Dabb would go with him if he's being brought back.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

It's Yasser Arafat.

Bingo. (j/k)

Added a 25.5  I missed Cas kissing Kelly's forehead.  Thanks to someone on Tumblr for pointing that out.

[SueB]

So I re-looked at the crib and living room.  I think it is Sammy's crib & the Winchester living room.  There are differences but I'll chalk that up to dream-scape (and 12 years of production difference).  The picture below is a collage of the one from the preview- upper left - and three from the pilot.

Edited May 13, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 Why did he turn into the lonesome warriror? What is he gonna bring to this final fight?

This just tripped my memory.

Cain. I'm going with it being Cain. It makes perfect sense. We don't know where he went after Dean killed him. There was some kind of thunder. Never saw his cold dead body. All those people lying about dead. Cain has a reason to keep killing.  Cas' "You." , would fit with seeing Cain because everyone thought he was dead. Robert Berens may have killed Cain but he also loves the character and loved writing for Tim Omundson.

I am moving Cain to the top of the list.

Edited May 13, 2017 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I would love for it to be Benny but there is really no way I see that happening.

I would also; I really liked Benny!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Cain. I'm going with it being Cain.

I don`t think so. Would the timing work out with shooting even? I was very saddened to hear about Tim Omundson`s recent health problems.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think so. Would the timing work out with shooting even? I was very saddened to hear about Tim Omundson`s recent health problems.

Filming wrapped April 27 if Misha's tweet of him being the last man standing indicates he was the last one to wrap shooting. 

Omundson was tweeting that week. He could have filmed his scenes anytime during the last two episodes.

Edited May 13, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

14 hours ago, SueB said:

But Jim Beaver is either trolling us hard or that is not Bobby

I think it's Bobby. Jim is a past master at hiding his appearances in the show and has in the past gone to some lengths to hide it. When they wrapped this year he tweeted Dabb saying 'sorry I couldn't make an appearance this year. Maybe s13'. I smell a rat. 

I think this could be The Empty and Bobby may have been sent there after he rebelled in heaven. Then D&S get sent there at end of s12. The vfx team have just confirmed that ep 23 has has more effects than any other ep to date which implies another world/dimension.

[Geordiegirl1967]

14 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I am really getting very very tired of them sidelining Dean

Why would Dean saving Mary be 'sidelining' him? If they do separate (I hope they don't. I want to see them fighting together) why assume Sam's mission is the key one and Dean's is unimportant? Personally I'll be irritated (and have been all season) at any implication that Mary has a stronger bond within Dean. There is no reason for that. Sam is just as much her son and neither of them really know the adult Mary. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why would Dean saving Mary be 'sidelining' him? If they do separate (I hope they don't. I want to see them fighting together) why assume Sam's mission is the key one and Dean's is unimportant? Personally I'll be irritated (and have been all season) at any implication that Mary has a stronger bond within Dean. There is no reason for that. Sam is just as much her son and neither of them really know the adult Mary. 

I wonder if they don't deal with Mary together and then split up after--Dean goes to help Cass and Sam goes to help Jodi and the other hunters?

However, it could just be that Dean is involved in the raid, but whatever his part in it is they're trying to keep a lid on so they didn't release any photos? 

Personally, I don't really care either way as long as they tell an engaging story.

Edited May 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Geordiegirl1967]

On 13/05/2017 at 2:15 AM, DeeDee79 said:

I would love for it to be Bobby. A confrontation between him and Mary would be awesome!

Totally agree. I'd swap all of Lucifer, Crowley, Mary and Cas to get Bobby back. I'm a big Jodie / Bobby shipper. It's the only romantic relationship I've ever cared about on the show. And wouldn't it be good for someone in this show to get some comfort / love? Bobby could be a father figure / trainer / joint protector (with Jodie) to Claire and Alex while still providing that role for Dean & Sam. Also I've been thinking they'd like to kill off Mary, but feel like that would be too much for S&D to take. But if in her sacrificing herself she gives them Bobby back it would at least be tempered for them. 

I'm all for it. My prediction; Dean, Sam & Mary are dumped into the Empty, possibly by Lucifer but maybe by Death who I still fully expect to see again. Bobby is there. Start of next season is 'escape from the Empty'. Maybe Mary lasts til then. Maybe not. Either way Dean, Sam and Bobby make it out  

Cas meanwhile stays with Kelly / Lucifer jnr (who I suspect won't be the evil thing we're expecting) and who will protect his mum and Cas from Lucifer.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Bingo. (j/k)

Added a 25.5  I missed Cas kissing Kelly's forehead.  Thanks to someone on Tumblr for pointing that out.

The whole head kiss thing makes me suspect even more that this is the end for Cas. I know kisses on the head like that can be platonic, but Cas isn't the type to show affection in that manner, so it can be considered very unusual behaviour for him! I suspect they're going to make him and Kelly a thing. They've fallen for eachother while he's played protector to baby, the baby is going to be good, and they'll write Cas out by having him go off to raise Lucifer Jr with Kelly as a new family. 

If they go that route they'll have given Cas a happy ending in hopes of decreasing the anger of his fans, and they have left open the possibility of him returning one day.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If they do separate (I hope they don't. I want to see them fighting together) why assume Sam's mission is the key one and Dean's is unimportant?

One is the showdown with the BMOL and what Dabb touted as being "generals" to the American hunters and the other is sitting in a chair and emo-ing at a character I really don`t care about. Dean gave and gave and gave with Mary all Season without getting much of anything back, how novel to see him give some more. If the character had had an action-packed Season, the emo stuff might be a nice change of pace but I`m wholly uninterested in any "save Mary" mission as well as seeing more on how she is such a super-hunter. 

Not to mention, this is probably the resolution to the Mary stuff this Season. Since she is currently victimized by the BMOL that is likely supposed to wipe the slate clean in terms of her Season-long horribleness and all is forgiven now. She doesn`t get called on anything, she doesn`t have to apologizes or face some hard truths. Doesn`t work for me. Why does this show suck so much at redemption tales? 

I would say Dean has a better chance of being involved in the action in the Finale so right now that seems like the more appealing episode. Even if they bring back Bobby, a character I was very happy to see go in Season 7.  

If Cas went off with stupid Kelly and the Spawn, that would be such a cheesy and lame route for the character. Not unlikely though.

[Geordiegirl1967]

48 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The whole head kiss thing makes me suspect even more that this is the end for Cas.

I doubt Cas will be written out. However he has apparently said to fans at his Australia m&g that he was tempted to cancel jib to avoid all the emotion from the finale. We've had emotional finales before, and jib is always just after it aired, yet it's never bothered him before. It did just make me wonder. It's possible he wants to leave to pursue politics. Hope not but he is very motivated since the election.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I doubt Cas will be written out. However he has apparently said to fans at his Australia m&g that he was tempted to cancel jib to avoid all the emotion from the finale. We've had emotional finales before, and jib is always just after it aired, yet it's never bothered him before. It did just make me wonder. It's possible he wants to leave to pursue politics. Hope not but he is very motivated since the election.

I hadn't heard about Misha saying that to fans at the Australia M&G. It is definitely an unusual statement! Thanks for sharing :)

Edited May 13, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

They've fallen for eachother while he's played protector to baby, the baby is going to be good, and they'll write Cas out by having him go off to raise Lucifer Jr with Kelly as a new family. 

If they go that route they'll have given Cas a happy ending in hopes of decreasing the anger of his fans, and they have left open the possibility of him returning one day.

My fear in this "happy ending" is if Satan, Jr., turns out evil, then does that mean Cas did a poor job raising him, or that he was destined to be evil because Satan's Spawn?  I don't think that will turn out well for Cas.

My take is that Mary will be around when Satan, Jr is born and Lucifer gets the bright idea to escape with her and Satan, Jr to that other dimension.  Then Cas asks Dean and Sam to go with him to save Mary and Satan, Jr.  That's when they encounter Mystery Figure, who is there to help them rather than hurt them.

I love Cas. And I don't want him to die, and still, I think I might rather he die than be made a fool again by partaking in the raising of Satan, Jr. if he turns out evil like Dear Old Dadifer.

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Totally agree. I'd swap all of Lucifer, Crowley, Mary and Cas to get Bobby back. I'm a big Jodie / Bobby shipper. It's the only romantic relationship I've ever cared about on the show. And wouldn't it be good for someone in this show to get some comfort / love? Bobby could be a father figure / trainer / joint protector (with Jodie) to Claire and Alex while still providing that role for Dean & Sam. Also I've been thinking they're like to kill off Mary, but feeling like that would be too much for S&D to take. But if in her sacrificing herself she gives them Bobby back it would at least be tempered for them. 

I'm all for it. My prediction; Dean, Sam & Mary are dumped into the Empty, possibly by Lucifer but maybe by Death who I still fully expect to see again. Bobby is there. Start of next season is 'escape from the Empty'. Maybe Mary lasts til then. Maybe not. Either way Dean, Sam and Bobby make it out  

Cas meanwhile stays with Kelly / Lucifer jnr (who I suspect won't be the evil thing we're expecting) and who will protect his mum and Cas from Lucifer.

Love these ideas! I REALLY want to see the Empty, and I hate that they had all those foreboding warnings and just completely dropped that storyline when they unceremoniously killed Billie.

[7kstar]

16 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I AM REALLY UNHAPPY that ANOTHER ICONIC Dean moment is being used with another character no matter who it is. Just screw them for that.

Iconic Dean moment?  Hardly.

Raised Hand of Survival

IA it's an Iconic Dean moment but it is also been done before.  So careful show...I know how you love to rinse and repeat but it may do more harm than good.

So the show is doing it's usual pushing way too much in the final.  Hopefully I'll enjoy it and not want to smash my TV.  :)  I just wish the show would go out strong and not limp along until they finally shoot it dead. 

Since they love "give them what they want but not as they want it"  Bringing Bobby back would be easy to keep silent, I'm not sure they could with JMD. 

The question I'm not sure I want answered is who is causing Dean and Sam tears and sadness.  Who died that will either cause the fandom to explode or be a whimper that only some would care about...I'm kind of tired of who shall we kill this year.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wonder if they don't deal with Mary together and then split up after--Dean goes to help Cass and Sam goes to help Jodi and the other hunters?

However, it could just be that Dean is involved in the raid, but whatever his part in it is they're trying to keep a lid on so they didn't release any photos? 

Personally, I don't really care either way as long as they tell an engaging story.

Me too.  

And 'sidelined' is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm far more interested in Dean engaging with Mary. Dean is always in the role of leader and Dean taking out the BMoL is well within his wheel house.   Sure, they've got weapons and it is always fun to see Dean make kick-ass moves, but if I was to choose the story I'm most interested in, it's the Mary/Dean relationship.  

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Love these ideas! I REALLY want to see the Empty, and I hate that they had all those foreboding warnings and just completely dropped that storyline when they unceremoniously killed Billie.

I struggle with it being the Empty only because I've always imagined it being a place of solitary confinement, with someone not being allowed a minute of feeling anything but what is in their own head for an eternity.  But I could be wrong.

If it is The Empty and it's not solitary confinement yet no one comes back from that, why can't they come back?  I'm thinking, perhaps the Mystery Figure is the Guardian of the Empty whose mission is to make sure no one gets out by killing them over and over and over, to the end of time and the universe. If it were to be Cain as the Guardian of the Empty, he's fulfilling his eternal bloodlust and fulfilling Death's goal that what's dead should stay dead. And maybe even Amara and God can't change that.  Like this is Death's dominion and even God and Amara can't alter that.

I can even see a case where anyone who had the Mark of Cain and killed another person whilst bearing it, would become the next Guardian of the Empty upon their death. Sam would not qualify since he never killed anyone whilst having it.

Hmmmm.....I feel a fic coming on

Edited May 13, 2017 by catrox14

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I don't really care either way as long as they tell an engaging story.

This IA.  My upset is that they've done such a poor job with Mary and it shouldn't have sucked.

You can go against the fans, but do it in a way that involves depth and show us the conflict.  This show always has so MUCH potential with ideas that should be down right engaging, but then they don't use the wealth of the show's history to make it inspiring or engaging. 

They rush the important parts and drag out the blah stuff.  I guess when I watch this season again, I'll see how the first few eps paved the direction, but I just wished I felt excited...

[rue721]

I think Cain is a very good guess for the guy in the kufiya!

Although, I will side-eye "The Empty" being a desert apparently filled with guys in quasi-military gear and kufiyas killing each other. That's a little...you know what I mean? (That said, it does remind me a little of the Phantom Zone, except way more culturally insensitive).

Not to mention, that would mean "The Empty" isn't at all empty -- is in fact FULL of people and shit going on -- which I kind of find hilarious, kind of find disappointing.

Also, it was awful to hear about Tim's stroke...it's possible he was able to play Cain in the days directly beforehand, but even if so, I'm not sure if they would leave that in (maybe they would reshoot and replace Cain with another character), since he's unlikely to get well again fast enough to rejoin production when S13 starts shooting. Although maybe Cain scenes were also what they were shooting for S13 a few weeks ago, and they got them all done while they (hypothetically) had Tim on set?

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

And 'sidelined' is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm far more interested in Dean engaging with Mary. Dean is always in the role of leader and Dean taking out the BMoL is well within his wheel house.   Sure, they've got weapons and it is always fun to see Dean make kick-ass moves, but if I was to choose the story I'm most interested in, it's the Mary/Dean relationship.

I think Jensen has done well with what IMO has been a miniscule amount of Mary stuff written for Dean but even if 12.22 or 12.23, was an entire episode devoted to Dean and Mary with nothing else happening,  it wouldn't really make up for what I have been unsatisfied with this season with Dean. That said 12.22 is not going to be devoted only to Dean/Mary so FOR ME, I am highly skeptical it will give me much to chew on or will make up for what I think has been lacking with Dean this season. JMO and YMMV.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm not sure if they would leave that in (maybe they would reshoot and replace Cain with another character), since he's unlikely to get well again fast enough to rejoin production when S13 starts shooting.

It really depends on the type of stroke he suffered, and the degree to which he was affected by it and in what ways. It's different for everyone. He could recover relatively quickly, a few months, with speech and occupational therapy to help him recover if that is even necessary.

I don't think they would bother recasting anyone else in that role if Tim was unable to continue in the role. I think they would just kill him off permanently, no coming back.  

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It really depends on the type of stroke he suffered, and the degree to which he was affected by it and in what ways. It's different for everyone. He could recover relatively quickly, a few months, with speech and occupational therapy to help him recover if that is even necessary.

I believe it was reported as a mild stroke. There's a Psych holiday movie in the works that is supposed to be adjusted to accommodate Tim's recovery. It sounds like he's going to be working in the near future.

But, like you said, it really does depend on the level of stroke and how quickly he received treatment. My mother had a mild stroke couple years ago and if you didn't know her you wouldn't have known she had one a week after. She tired easy, was having memory issues and things like looking at computer screens and riding in cars would make her nauseous, but she was functional and recovered fairly quickly. Her sister had one the year before and is still recovering. 

Anyway, so many possibilities for who that is, makes me wonder if it's not someone we've met previously? I always wonder if someone is yanking my chain though. ;)

Edited May 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think they would bother recasting anyone else in that role if Tim was unable to continue in the role. I think they would just kill him off permanently, no coming back.  

Oh, I don't mean a recast, I mean using a different character instead.

Like if they initially wrote for Cain, and shot scenes with Tim, but then Tim had his stroke and made the possibility of him being able to work in the early days of S13 less likely, they might have decided to keep the overall storyline but swapped out Cain for Bobby, and reshot with Jim Beaver (for example).

That said, there are other options...if they did shoot with Tim, but Tim turns out not to be ready/willing to work when they start production for S13 in a few months, they could also try using some "movie magic" to use a stand-in for him -- like they did for Lex on Smallville in S8, after the actor who played Lex had already left the show.

Or, like you said, maybe he will be ready and happy to work at that point and the whole question is moot. That just seems risky for production to count on. Although, given Tim's specific circumstances, maybe not it's not really all that risky...

In any case, I hope he does get well soon.

ETA:

The main reason I think Cain is very likely is that that does seem to be The Empty, and I would think Cain is the character most likely to be in The Empty (since he was carrying the Mark, and that's where Death wanted to send Dean when he had the Mark).

But I'm thinking it WILL be like the Phantom Zone and we're liable to "meet" lots of new characters and even some acquainted characters there. Like it would be fun if Gordon were there. I always wondered why he wasn't in Purgatory, but maybe he was too rough for Purgatory and Death decided to send him to Supermax, aka The Empty ;)

They might also just rip off Smallville wholesale and have characters "leak" out of the Empty and into the world, and become S13's new Big Bads. Wouldn't shock me if they went in that direction TBH.

Edited May 13, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

If it is Cain, I think it would be more likely they'd hope for the best, but have a backup plan to write around it if need be in the future. Actors become unavailable all the time, I'd bet the show is prepared to handle that if they needed to. It'd be very costly to reshoot the sequences with a different actor and there's also the cost of hiring another actor.

Edited May 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, like you said, it really does depend on the level of stroke and how quickly he received treatment. My mother had a mild stroke couple years ago and if you didn't know her you wouldn't have known she had one a week after. She tired easy, was having memory issues and things like looking at computer screens and riding in cars would make her nauseous, but she was functional and recovered fairly quickly. Her sister had one the year before and is still recovering. 

My mom had a hemorraghic stroke back a few years ago, which is the most destructive kind. She managed to get more of her speech back in a shorter time than expected resumed a living similarly to before the stroke, with the major change of no longer being able to drive and subsequently, unable to live alone for safety reason, but in her case vascular dementia complicated matters. She suffered two more strokes before she passed away two years ago.

[Geordiegirl1967]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, like you said, it really does depend on the level of stroke and how quickly he received treatment. My mother had a mild stroke couple years ago and if you didn't know her you wouldn't have known she had one a week after.

Rob also had a stroke at a convention a couple of years ago and he recovered very quickly. You wouldn't even know now. I hope that is the case with Tim.

That said I don't want him to be the mystery man. 

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She suffered two more strokes before she passed away two years ago.

Sorry to hear that.

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Like it would be fun if Gordon were there.

As Sterling K Brown is now one of the hottest and most in demand actors working in TV at the moment (with This is Us and the OJ Simpson Story under his belt) I highly doubt he'll be back to SPN any time soon. Though I do like to think we gave him his big break