Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

Quote

“Then we have another episode coming up later in the season, Episode 19, that’s extremely Cas-heavy in an even different way.”

http://tvline.com/2016/12/19/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-castiel-episode-10-11-19/

So we know they've at least broken story thru EP19.  

[catrox14]

Getting Cas backstory....scares me. It's a thing that happens before they kill off a character. Plus he has the "and" credit and now I'm even more paranoid for Cas :(

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Getting Cas backstory....scares me. It's a thing that happens before they kill off a character. Plus he has the "and" credit and now I'm even more paranoid for Cas :(

I don't think they'll kill off Cas while they still need him to pad the eps while we're J2-light.  But I've been wrong before, so, fingers crossed?

[Morrigan2575]

IMO, the only reason they'd get rid of Castiel or Crowley (at this point) would be budget cuts, the actors demanding too much money during negotiations, or the actors wanting out.

Other than that, Misha/Mark are necessary to give the J's their negotiated lighter schedules. I don't see that changing any time soon. They've been doing this for 12 years now, at this point the actors probably make a bigger fuss about their schedules than raises during negotiations.

Also, the show doesn't really have any long-term recurring characters left that could carry an independent story, like Cas/Crowley. 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not worried about them killing Cass now--I was back in S10--but I don't see any signs of it now. I'm betting the Cass-centric episodes are both about giving Jared and Jensen some time off while also responding to criticism that Cass has had nothing to do for years now. It could be an attempt to "write" a wrong? ;)

Also, the "and" credit just says to me they either wanted to give Misha a more visible credit or Misha negotiated for it. My understanding is "with" or "and" before your name in the credits is supposed to be a more desired. David Hewitt had it on the entire run of Stargate: Atlantis and, as I recall, he negotiated for it to give his name a better presence in the titles. Seems to me a sign Misha isn't going anywhere more than anything.

[Demented Daisy]

Awww.

[DittyDotDot]

Start a twitter campaign NOW!! ;)

[SueB]

I love Jim, I love Bobby. But I'm also feeling "crammed" this season.  I don't feel the Lucifer story is properly put to bed. I want more Mary story.  And then there's the 'Big Bad' BMoL.  Plus I DO feel like its about time we had a Cas-centric arc.  He's been adrift.  

So, if Bobby shows up in S13 vice S12, I'm okay with it.  And I won't complain if he shows up in S12, but I'm not sure how much focus he could get.  

[DittyDotDot]

Bobby hasn't gotten any focus since S7. I'm thinking a one-off--like Safe House or Inside Man--and there's lots of those still to come. I actually think he could fit into a Mary-centric episode nicely, though. 

ETA: To be honest, Bobby could fit really well into a Cass-centric episode too. I mean, Bobby's in Heaven and Cass will probably need to return to Heaven at some point... .

Edited December 20, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Bobby hasn't gotten any focus since S7. I'm thinking a one-off--like Safe House or Inside Man--and there's lots of those still to come. I actually think he could fit into a Mary-centric episode nicely, though. 

 

Fair point.  I would actually like to see Mary get a hold of Bobby's journal and read bits of it, with Jim Beaver providing some scenes.  Like revisiting the boys from Bobby's POV to give Mary insight.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Fair point.  I would actually like to see Mary get a hold of Bobby's journal and read bits of it, with Jim Beaver providing some scenes.  Like revisiting the boys from Bobby's POV to give Mary insight.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Bobby would be the best character to give Mary insight on Sam and Dean since he watched them grow into the men they became. I also think it would be interesting for her to see them through Bobby's eyes.

ETA: They could do a Safe House-ish episode where Mary is investigating something that ties back to a case Bobby worked with Sam, Dean and John?

Edited December 20, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

http://tvline.com/2016/12/19/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-castiel-episode-10-11-19/

So we know they've at least broken story thru EP19.  

So, now we have 3 Cas centric episodes? *sigh* remember when this show was about Sam and Dean?

The writers keep telling us that the show is always better when it's about the boys and yet this season is looking to be taking a very Sam and Dean light direction, which is kind of upsetting to me. Sam and Dean are the main reason I (and I'm sure, many others) watch, and I was hoping that this year with Mary's return we'll get the focus back to them! and its not that I hate Cas, I actually like him and think his character has added a lot to the show but I like him in small doses and I like that his storylines are connected to Sam and Dean's storyline. Him having independent storylines is not very appealing to me, in fact, I'm pretty sure I'll be totally bored with it. 

 

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think they'll kill off Cas while they still need him to pad the eps while we're J2-light.  But I've been wrong before, so, fingers crossed?

Can't they use other characters to "pad episodes" though? They have Mary now and the BMoL. Both, in my opinion, have proven to be very interesting.

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, goldy said:

So, now we have 3 Cas centric episodes? *sigh* remember when this show was about Sam and Dean?

The writers keep telling us that the show is always better when it's about the boys and yet this season is looking to be taking a very Sam and Dean light direction, which is kind of upsetting to me. Sam and Dean are the main reason I (and I'm sure, many others) watch, and I was hoping that this year with Mary's return we'll get the focus back to them! and its not that I hate Cas, I actually like him and think his character has added a lot to the show but I like him in small doses and I like that his storylines are connected to Sam and Dean's storyline. Him having independent storylines is not very appealing to me, in fact, I'm pretty sure I'll be totally bored with it. 

 

Can't they use other characters to "pad episodes" though? They have Mary now and the BMoL. Both, in my opinion, have proven to be very interesting.

Mary and the BMoL are distinct storylines, specifically relating to the boys, like the Leviathan and Eve, and I'm pretty sure they're self-limiting, and will have some resolution by the end of the season, whereas Cas (and Crowley, and now Rowena) are characters that have been integrated into the existing storylines.   My interpretation of "padding" is to have a "normal" episode (with the leads still the major focus) but having other characters take up screentime to give the others time off.  The storyline is still focusing on the main characters, but they're not necessarily on screen. 

I think the show is trying to make Cas, Crowley and Rowena into a (secondary) ensemble cast, where each character can have his own story (instead of everything being centered around the boys); but IMO it hasn't worked very well. First, they'd have to retcon the entire premise of the show (because it *has* been set up with two specific leads, not as an ensemble, and that's what the audience expects/wants); but mostly  because the others aren't fully-rounded characters with (interesting) lives of their own *outside* of the Winchester connection, so their standalone stories feel like there's something missing when Sam and Dean aren't around.  To be an actual ensemble cast, I think characters would have to be of equal importance, not be perceived as hero-support.  The standalone eps with Rufus and Bobby worked well, even without the boys, because they were good characters.  Cas, Crowley and even Rowena are only interesting when they're interacting with the boys. JMO.

Edited December 20, 2016 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

I don`t mind 3 Cas-episodes. When the baby news broke, I fully expected an even more limited schedule in the second half or two thirds actually of the Season.

However, I would like at least one Dean-episode. That was never a problem in Seasons past but it has totally become one for me now. Just one - good - episode please. I know, the de-aging one might fit the bill but that sounds so much like humiliation porn, I`m not looking forward to it. So, one episode that isn`t goofy humour then, a dramatic ep please. I`m sure Jensen could do the work for one focus ep, even now. So on that account this bums me out greatly.

And a Cas backstory episode? That makes me weary in terms of retconning stuff. But it could potentially be interesting. ,    

[Diane]

http://tvline.com/2016/12/20/the-big-bang-theory-season-10-spoilers-sheldon-amy-ask-ausiello/

Question: Any word on whether Jim Beaver will be making an appearance on Supernatural this season? It just wouldn’t seem right to not have Bobby at least make one appearance. —Jane
Ausiello: There are “no plans as of right now,” but some other familiar faces will be back this season, executive producer Andrew Dabb tells TVLine. Among them: deaf hunter Eileen Leahy, teen wannabe hunter Claire Novak and Sheriff Donna Hanscum. “Obviously, as we’re building up the British hunters, we’re also building up, or in some cases re-establishing, our American hunters,” the EP says. “It’s a really cool opportunity to bring in people like that, some of whom we’ve seen pretty recently, and some of whom we haven’t seen for quite a while.”

Question: Can the show give us any scoop on Supernatural Episode 11, which is rumored to have a de-aged Dean? —Kim
Ausiello: Dean’s not physically de-aging, but rather “trapped in a Memento-type loop, where he’s kind of losing his memory a little bit,” Dabb previews. “For him, as someone who struggles with all the baggage from years and years of doing a very, very difficult job, it almost becomes freeing, in a way. So you’re going to see a Dean that is a lot more fun and childlike. Jensen [Ackles] does a great job. Then it becomes a much more tragic story as he starts to forget Sam — and himself.”

[SueB]

I'm really looking forward to EP11.  I'm certain Dean gets recovered at the end, which is even MORE tragic to some extent.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Sigh.  I really, REALLY don't want to see HMSS (especially Lady ToniteImighthavetokillher) end up being any kind of allies.  As others on here have stated, I'd rather see the American hunters rally together (at least briefly) to kick them out of the US and expose a weakness in their own organization, which they think so superior. 

[MysteryGuest]

The board is really distorted for me today...hmmm.  Anyway, commenting on a few things.  I'd love to have Bobby back at any time.  He was one of my favorite characters and I loved his relationship with Sam and Dean.  For me, it hasn't been the same since they killed him off.  Donna's return I'm happy about, as I like her, but I could do without more Claire for a while.

Multiple Cas-centric episodes doesn't really interest me.  I agree that he's best in small doses, and when he's with Sam or Dean.  The first few episodes of season 10 that had multiple long scenes of Cas wandering around with Hannah were extremely boring to me.  I watch for Sam and Dean, so the less time they're actually on screen, the less I enjoy the show.

[catrox14]

I'm find with Cas-centric episodes as long as it ties into the current season. I've never really cared that much about Cas' life as a Warrior Angel before he came into the Winchesters orbit. For me the show is better with Cas in it as a supporting character for the boys. I grew to dislike Bobby immensely but seeing him once a season is fine since it would be to inform Sam and Dean's stories.  The show is a two-hander and IMO all the characters should exist to support Sam and Dean's stories.

[Morrigan2575]

Ohhh 11 sounds good.

I don't have a problem with Cas centric episodes. I just want them to tie into the main story somehow. I found the Angel storylines to be a mixed bag, I liked them early on in small doses. However, they got boring after awhile and I hated them taking away from the MoW.

I'd love another Bobby episode like they did last year? Where we had Rufus and Bobby investing a case and Sam/Dean investing the same case 20 years later. 

[companionenvy]

I'm interested in the Cas episodes if they actually give him something interesting to do. Also looking forward to the return of Eileen and Claire (I wonder if Claire will factor into one of the Cas epsiodes). Donna I'm kind of meh about (unpopular opinion, I know, especially given that I've just admitted to liking Claire)!

I think I'm going to skip episode 11 and only watch if people on the boards assure me it isn't as painful and/or cringeworthy as it sounds like it is going to be. I have low tolerance for embarrassment, and am terrified of the idea of myself or a loved one losing their memory, so whether they play it for laughs or pure tragedy, I'm probably better off giving it a mis. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by companionenvy

[Demented Daisy]

Quote

"Then it becomes a much more tragic story as he starts to forget Sam — and himself.”

I'm not sure I can handle this.  I've had multiple family members with various stages of memory loss, the worst being my grandfather with Alzheimer's, and it's painful.  For everyone.  I'm not sure that TPTB are skilled enough for this kind of story.  They've been painting with some broad strokes this year, not always successfully.  I fear they could step on some toes -- inadvertently, of course.  If you've never been through it (and this goes for any kind of story that tackles a true-to-life issue), it can be difficult to convey the raw emotion involved.

But I'll do my best to keep an open mind.  I haven't skipped an episode yet, why start now?

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I'm not sure I can handle this.  I've had multiple family members with various stages of memory loss, the worst being my grandfather with Alzheimer's, and it's painful.  For everyone.  I'm not sure that TPTB are skilled enough for this kind of story.  They've been painting with some broad strokes this year, not always successfully.  I fear they could step on some toes -- inadvertently, of course.  If you've never been through it (and this goes for any kind of story that tackles a true-to-life issue), it can be difficult to convey the raw emotion involved.

But I'll do my best to keep an open mind.  I haven't skipped an episode yet, why start now?

When I saw that description, I immediately thought of the Stargate Atlantis episode The Shrine since I recently saw that episode again. As always, it will probably depend on how well they walk the line. I think it could be a very compelling episode, but I think it'll come down to who writes it in the end. I'm still hoping it's a Berens episode. Which, if they stay in the same rotation, it should be.

[Aeryn13]

Buffy`s "Tabula Rasa" was pretty funny though that had all the characters forgetting who they are. SGA`s "The Shrine" might be a more apt comparism. However, SPN most often goes for slapstick and very cheap, humiliating jokes. And that is so not my kind of humour. I hope the episode turns better than that but I brace myself.

Again, that wouldn`t be such a big deal if I hadn`t been waiting for a Dean-centric ep for ages now. Now there is probably only one and the chances are high that I can`t even enjoy it. That sucks. And if they do Stargate Atlantis, I would prefer "Sateda". Much easier not to fuck up. 

[rue721]

On 12/20/2016 at 3:08 PM, Diane said:

Ausiello: Dean’s not physically de-aging, but rather “trapped in a Memento-type loop, where he’s kind of losing his memory a little bit,” Dabb previews. “For him, as someone who struggles with all the baggage from years and years of doing a very, very difficult job, it almost becomes freeing, in a way. So you’re going to see a Dean that is a lot more fun and childlike. Jensen [Ackles] does a great job. Then it becomes a much more tragic story as he starts to forget Sam — and himself.”

I'm with Demented Daisy. It's an interesting storyline for them to tackle. But I have a feeling that I'm going to find it difficult to watch.

[goldy]

Supernatural- First Blood Extended Trailer:

[catrox14]

So I bet that scene of the boys trying to escape was really a failed attempt. I will give them all the credit if they escape at the end and they become fugitives again.

I am curious about why the Secret Service guy was all "Sam and Dean Winchester tried to kill the President",  to the guy that seemed to know who they were. I really do wonder if they are Men of Letters or if the boys fed history with the FBI comes back. Maybe they are still on the FBI most wanted list even after Henriksen and Charlie's hacking.

[SueB]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So I bet that scene of the boys trying to escape was really a failed attempt. I will give them all the credit if they escape at the end and they become fugitives again.

I am curious about why the Secret Service guy was all "Sam and Dean Winchester tried to kill the President",  to the guy that seemed to know who they were. I really do wonder if they are Men of Letters or if the boys fed history with the FBI comes back. Maybe they are still on the FBI most wanted list even after Henriksen and Charlie's hacking.

 

Because LOTUS sent his out to assassinate them.  Cas wiped the memories of their confrontation but not, apparently, this guy's orders.  And he sees the two with an unconscious President.  BUT YOU CAN'T JUST ASSASSINATE PEOPLE (including prisoners).  

So, if Sam and Dean escape ... and have evidence of the attempted assassination ... they may have leverage.  That's a big IF.  If they get free, I doubt they have time to stop and get camera data. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I am curious about why the Secret Service guy was all "Sam and Dean Winchester tried to kill the President",  to the guy that seemed to know who they were. I really do wonder if they are Men of Letters or if the boys fed history with the FBI comes back. Maybe they are still on the FBI most wanted list even after Henriksen and Charlie's hacking.

It had to be a setup (either MoL or Lucifer) because, aside from Henriksen and Charlie's hacking, both boys/Leviathans were killed in Slash Fiction, and even Dick Roman thought bringing them back again would be too suspicious to the Feds.  So the SS not going "huh? Where did they come from and *why* would they want to assassinate the Pres?" seems too pat to me.  Unless the writers think we won't question.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

It had to be a setup (either MoL or Lucifer) because, aside from Henriksen and Charlie's hacking, both boys/Leviathans were killed in Slash Fiction, and even Dick Roman thought bringing them back again would be too suspicious to the Feds.  So the SS not going "huh? Where did they come from and *why* would they want to assassinate the Pres?" seems too pat to me.  Unless the writers think we won't question.  

 

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

Because LOTUS sent his out to assassinate them.  Cas wiped the memories of their confrontation but not, apparently, this guy's orders.  And he sees the two with an unconscious President.  BUT YOU CAN'T JUST ASSASSINATE PEOPLE (including prisoners).  

I don't think I explained myself well.  I'm not talking about the SS guy's reaction. I'm talking about his boss' reaction. I thought he was kind of non-chalant/annoyed/disappointed. I would have expected more along the lines of "Who are these guys?" and along with what @ahrtee was saying like "why would these guys want to kill the President?".  I just got a strong vibe from the SS guy that he was reporting names as if the SS Boss already knew them but if SS guy was the only one that remembers the accusation from LOTUS why would SS Boss react like he knew them.

If actual!POTUS has no memory of anything he wouldnt have any memory of Dean and Sam nor would he have a memory of an alleged plot to assassinate him, so POTUS should be able to just say, no I never said that etc. Maybe if it's being played straight the SS agent is really going against the actual!POTUS. It's just strange IMO

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I am curious about why the Secret Service guy was all "Sam and Dean Winchester tried to kill the President",  to the guy that seemed to know who they were.

Lucifer told the Secret Service that the Winchesters wanted to assassinate him (the President)...because they were crazy and believed him to be Satan. I would guess the Secret Service guy passed on this information. I mean, he has people he has to answer to and who give him orders. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Unless the writers think we won't question.  

Since the Carver years, I tend to think that's the case, yeah.

[goldy]

Supernatural Stars Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles on Men of Letters Battle – Plus: EP Debunks Arrest Theory

http://linkis.com/tvline.com/2016/12/2/KJLcA

When Supernatural returns with new episodes on Jan. 26 (The CW, 8/7c), Dean and Sam will have been behind bars for six weeks — but don’t blame the British Men of Letters for their imprisonment.

Shutting down fan speculation that the group was secretly responsible for the Winchesters’ arrest, executive producer Andrew Dabb reveals that “it was really the government that grabbed them. It was really the Secret Service.”

However, “the Men of Letters, like Mary [and] Castiel, are going to have a very specific reaction” to the hunters’ predicament as they take a more active interest in them — for better or worse.

“We’re going to see that storyline get fleshed out in the second half of the season,” star Jensen Ackles previewed during TVLine’s visit to the show’s Vancouver set. “There are going to be some recruitment attempts, some disagreements about methods of hunting, and that will certainly boil to a point.”

Although the Brits’ way of doing things, not to mention their handy weapons, have proven to be successful recently, “I think we’ll find out in the future that maybe their methods aren’t the best way,” Ackles adds

For co-star Jared Padalecki, the storyline is “reminiscent of Season 6 when Sam was soulless and kind of behaved much the same way the British Men of Letters are behaving now, at least in their hunting tactics,” the actor says. “It’s fun to revisit that: Would you kill two people to save three? Would you kill 10 to save 12? You’re still killing 10 people. Would you try to find the middle ground?”

That dilemma will play “a big part” in the upcoming episodes as the brothers “see both the good and the bad” side of the British Men of Letters, Dabb previews. “Because the truth is, even if you disagree with their methods – and Sam and Dean certainly will in some cases – they get results. So that becomes the bigger punch [in the second half of the season]: Do the ends justify the means? And if so, what means are our guys willing to tolerate?”

[Demented Daisy]

Dammit, I want my good guys to be good and my bad guys to be bad.  I'm tired of the show blurring the line between the two.  Besides, this is not exactly new for Sam and Dean.  How many times have they asked themselves if they should work with demons/witches/vampires/angels/etc.?  Not to mention hunters like Gordon.

C'mon, show.  Please do better.  

[DittyDotDot]

Why is Dabb shutting down fan speculation? Granted, I never thought the British MoL had the boys, but isn't the point--and fun--of doing a cliffhanger is the fans spending the hiatus speculating and talking about the show? Silly, silly, silly.

However, I figured the British MoL would not be allies by the end of the season. Just because they have fancy weapons doesn't mean they do good things with those weapons.

Edited December 27, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Although the Brits’ way of doing things, not to mention their handy weapons, have proven to be successful recently, “I think we’ll find out in the future that maybe their methods aren’t the best way,” Ackles adds

Well, there has to be a catch, otherwise, you have just introduced some fancy super-Mary-Sues in your 12th Season of a show who completely surplant and invalidate the protagonists so far. Any writer who thinks that would be a good call should be made to eat their own scripts, before filming. 

Quote

Dammit, I want my good guys to be good and my bad guys to be bad.  I'm tired of the show blurring the line between the two. 

I think they go by the adage that writing "the grey area" is considered more sophisticated, deeper and more edgy. Unfortunately, writers have stopped to ask themselves the question of "does my story call for that?" Some stories absolutely call for a more simplistic good vs. evil. And if that is written well, there is nothing childish or simple about it. And if a story does benefit from muddying the waters a bit (lot), that also needs to be written really well. Which means, if you can`t do it, stay with good vs. evil.

I have always felt that as a general rule SPN as a show benefits more from good vs. evil because the protagonists are in effect killers of monsters and entities. If everyone of those has a sob story, it kills the rooteability of the protagonists instead. And likewise if the majority of people in the same profession as the protagonists suck worse than monsters, it invalidates the job as well. That doesn`t mean no monsters can ever be good or grey or no hunters ever evil but use that construct sparingly and thus more effectively.

I thought they were going for a Watcher`s Council from Buffy approach here with the BritMOL. But the thing is while the WC where equally as smug, they were pretty incompetent overall. The BritMOL apparently know everything and can do everything and have the coolest gadgets ever. Meanwhile the Winchesters are so inept they get taken in like buffoons. That goes too far in either direction. It`s carricature writing over the board. Some more. 

[Demented Daisy]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they go by the adage that writing "the grey area" is considered more sophisticated, deeper and more edgy. Unfortunately, writers have stopped to ask themselves the question of "does my story call for that?" Some stories absolutely call for a more simplistic good vs. evil. And if that is written well, there is nothing childish or simple about it. And if a story does benefit from muddying the waters a bit (lot), that also needs to be written really well. Which means, if you can`t do it, stay with good vs. evil.

That would make a difference if the show hadn't done it over and over and over again.  From the moment John sold his soul to save Dean's life, they've questioned who they should work with, to what extremes they will go.  It's tired and redundant at this point.

I thought the BMoL would be not unlike the Ministry of Magic, controlling who can do magic and punishing those who are too young/inexperienced.  (Except, of course, the BMoL would be controlling and punishing hunters.)

You know what might have made an interesting story?  Trying to figure out why Abbadon killed all the American MoL, but left the Brits alone.  Perhaps the Winchesters should be looking into whether the BMoL are the only ones left....

[companionenvy]

I think the show can have grey areas in regard to monsters without invalidating what the Winchesters are doing.

In pretty much every case, the Winchesters find monsters because they've been killing people. There are rare cases, like the one earlier this season with the psychic girl, where the "monster" -- or person with supernatural abilities -- turns out to be either innocent or unaware of what they've been doing, in which case the Winchesters let them go. Evidently, the MoL takes a hard-line zero tolerance policy toward supernatural beings, so people like the psychic girl, Jesse the anti-Christ, Garth and his wife, Kate the werewolf -- and perhaps even more benign beings, including prophets, and psychics like Pamela and Missouri -- would be fair game. But since Sam and Dean have never gone after people in that category, and wouldn't even be likely to have encountered most of the friendlier supernatural creatures, it isn't as if a reassessment of methods is going to retroactively suggest that the Winchesters have been the monsters all along.

I am, however, going to be deeply disappointed if there isn't some serious evil behind the BMOL (as opposed to ruthlessness of methods), simply because if there isn't, then there is zero logic behind the fact that they've sat out events that threatened a worldwide apocalypse. 

[catrox14]

Dabb shutting down that spec is strange. Could it be a foiler? I mean for me, unless the BMoL are doing nefarious things and are shady they are uninteresting to me.  We already know that Cuthbert made the deadly Werther Box and hwe was clearly the enemy to Dean. As others have said, they ignored all the big things.

There is no reason why the Secret Service would put the boys in a black site. They are not the CIA.

The Secret Service in addition to prtotection, does investigate financial crimes like credit card fraud and computer hacking, so it's possible let they would be interrogated about those thing, BUT how would they know given the last real police officer had them declared dead officially in Slash Fiction and between Victor, Frank and Charlie I think they're tracks are well hidden. Not too mention the bunker didn't allow them to be tracked when they were hacking from the bunker. The Service should have confiscated the Impala too right? So they will see the devils trap, Holy Oil, salt bullets,  the grenade launcher, fake IDs, knives, etc which definitely would be a problem and incriminating but that is not real evidence other than LuciferOTUS allegations told to the agent in charge. I still say there is a reason for the exchange of looks between the agent and Sam.

So, why the black site rendition?  IMO has to be for a reason other than a dedicated Secret Service agent. My latest spec is that Lucifer is possessing someone in  the Service maybe even the lead agent who insists on putting them in a black site.

I still cannot buy that the boys were that stupid to get captured. They wouldn't have stayed in that room  when they already knew they were being watched so I still hold out hope its a ploy.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You know what might have made an interesting story?  Trying to figure out why Abbadon killed all the American MoL, but left the Brits alone.  Perhaps the Winchesters should be looking into whether the BMoL are the only ones left....

I think the reason is supposed to be "they are so super-duper-amazingly competent at everything". With the American MOL they actually created some nice enough balance by saying they had some vast knowledge and cool toys (Henry Winchester immediately whipped out some cool spell-work) but their arrogance, especially towards hunters, was their undoing. That said arrogance was actually wrong. Whereas apparently Brit!MOL are so super-suave, they only ever have need of some dumb hunter-drones for clean-up jobs and their arrogance is not at all misplaced.

It`s been a third of a Season now and while we haven`t seen a lot of the BritMOL yet, I`m already over the point where I needed to see them epically fail and fall right on their smug faces. Nope, the end of ep 2 was not that. They can regroup and come back stronger later but I just find no joy in basically a TV or movie representation of a boss battle from a video game.    

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I think the show can have grey areas in regard to monsters without invalidating what the Winchesters are doing.

In pretty much every case, the Winchesters find monsters because they've been killing people. 

Yes but if you have the majority of such episodes have a "twist" where actually the monster is the innocent victims, hunter-dom looks ridiculous. I think a good old good vs. evil story now WOULD be fresh blood for the show. I really enjoyed the Yellow Eyed Demon as the Big Bad. Never had the slightest need to grey him up.  

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I still cannot buy that the boys were that stupid to get captured. 

I do. It`s how the show operates. They always do crap like that and then go "um...why is that a problem for people? we seriously never envisioned anyone would question that too much". 

Well, MY question would be how you could write that just for plot convenience and never look beyond it. How dumb do these writers (and those on other shows) think people are? Like seriously? What`s the yardstick, the IQ of a zucchini? I expect such stupidity from certain characters in horror/slasher films, they are there to run into dark alley and not to a well-lit public market when they flee from the monster. I do not expect the Winchester brother to display the same set of survival skills. Yup, wait around next to the unconscious POTUS, nothing bad will happen, I`m sure.

[goldy]

Supernatural Spoiler Photos: “First Blood” 

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoiler-photos-first-blood-2017/134478/

 

 

ETA

 

Also this pic from "tvline"

 

 

And this:

 

Supernatural Photos: Cas and Mary Search for Locked-Up Sam and Dean

http://tvline.com/2016/12/30/supernatural-season-12-episode-9-spoilers-photos-dean-sam-imprisonment/

Supernatural brothers Sam and Dean find themselves being carted off in cuffs in the first photos from the CW drama’s Thursday, Jan. 26 episode (now airing at 8/7c), but at least they’ve got some loved ones looking for them on the outside.

“We’re going to be building in about a six-week time jump,” executive producer Andrew Dabb reveals. “We’ll see how Sam and Dean act in that period of isolation, but also how the rest of the world reacts, as well — specifically Cas and Mary and some other players.”

No strangers to outrunning the authorities or getting arrested, the Winchesters’ latest run-in with the law is “a different kind of predicament than they’ve ever had before,” Dabb says. “The people that have them” — the government, not the British of Men of Letters — “think they’re real, legitimate criminals, albeit kind of terrorists more than your common thief or anything like that. Sam and Dean [are] facing something where it’s not like they can do what they normally do.”.

That means not being able to say, “‘The monster’s real. And by the way, the monster’s going to come and get you, and you have to be on our side,’ which is something they pulled with law enforcement in the past,” the EP notes.

Edited December 30, 2016 by goldy

[catrox14]

Um...and why exactly can't they say that monsters/Lucifer is real this time? That literally makes no sense. They can say it and the feds might not believe them but they sure as hell better be trying to at least explain the shit. Cause that quote makes it seem like they aren't going to even try.

Hell, they would be better off telling things and then being whisked off to a mental health facility which they can most likely break out of. Honestly, I'm far more interested in tidbits about 12.11 than 12.09. 

 

ETA: Also, there is no evidence that Sam and Dean are actually terrorists thus far unless the feds have a full dossier on them or Lucifer is manipulating this more than is being let on.

It seems to  me if President Jeff who was religious as we saw doesn't remember what happened to him, but Agent Rick tells him that the evidence is his allegations that the boys think Prez Jeff is Satan, wouldn't Prez Jeff's deep religious self think this might be hinky? I mean maybe he would want to talk to them or some such?

Edited December 30, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I'm confused. Can't Castiel hear prayers anymore? Sam and Dean may not be able to tell him where they are, but shouldn't Cas be able to tell if they pray to him?

And I agree, @catrox14, it would make more sense if Sam and Dean tried to explain the supernatural causes of what happened.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm confused. Can't Castiel hear prayers anymore? Sam and Dean may not be able to tell him where they are, but shouldn't Cas be able to tell if they pray to him?

I don't get what they are doing with Cas' abilities. We were told in s10 that someone doesn't even have to pray and Cas will sense their need ( which WAT?). So surely Cas will sense Dean's internal plea for help. 

How much better would it have been for them to have been taken by the BMoL who are in cahoots with the feds and that the boys are put into a dark site that is actually warded against supernatural things, you know like the bunker was..so Cas couldn't sense Dean's prayers.  Also, come on, Chuck and Amara should be able to bust them out, if they gave a shit. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm confused. Can't Castiel hear prayers anymore? Sam and Dean may not be able to tell him where they are, but shouldn't Cas be able to tell if they pray to him?

It's been so inconsistent over the years as to how angels, and Cass in particular, can find them. If they still have those sigils carved into their ribs, Cass won't be able to locate them, even if he can hear their prayers. 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, come on, Chuck and Amara should be able to bust them out, if they gave a shit. LOL

He's God and, well, not his problem... .

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, Cas used to always come when they called him, but evidently, that doesn't happen anymore.  As with Dean and Sam's hunting skills, Cas' angel powers come and go based on the whims of the writers.

[catrox14]

Cas said that he heard all of Dean's prayers in s6 but didn't answer on purpose. My head!canon then was that Cas somehow made the sigils to exclude all angels but him. Then in s9 Dean prayed to all the angels and they all heard and Ezekiel/Gadreel  came to his aid.  Cas couldn't because he was human.  Seems to me either Dean's prayer negated the warding effect or the sigils are gone. I could fanwank that Dean's time in Purgatory caused the sigils to be deactivated, and during Sam's time in the Cage, Lucifer deactivated the sigils. But that's entirely head!canon.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

He's God and, well, not his problem... .

 Dean saved Chuck and the entire universe from Amara. You'd think he'd be a little more....grateful. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, you'd think that, wouldn't you. But, what one thinks isn't necessarily so, when it comes to this show. Plus, I don't want God to step in and fix everything for them; they might get flabby without the exercise! ;)

[SueB]

15 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm confused. Can't Castiel hear prayers anymore? Sam and Dean may not be able to tell him where they are, but shouldn't Cas be able to tell if they pray to him?

And I agree, @catrox14, it would make more sense if Sam and Dean tried to explain the supernatural causes of what happened.

 

He can hear Dean's prayers (and Sam's).  That was evident in S6.. "I heard you but I had no news to tell you."  It's just that if Dean doesn't know where they are at, it won't help.  He could say they traveled for 6 hours.  And that provides a HUGE search radius. Heck, 2 hrs is impossible without wings.  

Everything seems to point at it being regular Joe's who have them... no one using mojo.  If that's true than I'd say Cas should mention he hears them.