Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wouldn't you think if you were trying to convince someone (especially Dean) that you would be *more* absolute instead of less?  Telling him it *would* happen in no uncertain terms?  She didn't soften any other part of the message--that the war would go on without him, that he had no say in whatever would happen to Sam or John from that point on?  

MO she was guiding him to the conclusion of his own accord that "Probably" and "maybe" really meant "will happen". 

Ahh, that's right. Thanks @DittyDotDot. Wasn't there a situation when ghosts were being controlled by witches or demons? I have a vague recollection but I can't remember the specifics. Or am I just confused?

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ahh, that's right. Thanks @DittyDotDot. Wasn't there a situation when ghosts were being controlled by witches or demons? I have a vague recollection but I can't remember the specifics.

I can't think of any off the top of my head. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though. Most witches get their power from demons, but I don't remember demons controlling ghosts...hmm.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not bothered with the idea that Mary has been in Heaven for the last 30+ years.  The Winchesters (even by marriage) are special to and have been manipulated by God and the angels for decades -- maybe even centuries or Millenia.  

So, yeah, were rules bent for John and Mary?  Entirely believable to me.

IMO, Ash's comment in Dark Side of the Moon was never intended to be a plot point or big mystery.  I always considered it a throwaway line to explain why Sam and Dean couldn't see John or Mary in Heaven, because of course they would ask Ash to go get them.  But maybe the show couldn't get Samantha Smith or Jeffrey Dean Morgan, so TPTB had to come up with something.  I thought that if it was supposed to actually mean something, the show would have brought it up again. 

And I don't count much of season 1 as canon, other than the basic story.  I mean, look at the Reaper in Faith!  Have we seen another Reaper like that?  To me, they were still working out the kinks in their story and were using traditional lore for all of their monsters/ghosts/demons/whatnot.  But, in later seasons, they needed to move beyond those traditional stories, which kind of negates what they said earlier.  Which I didn't have a problem with because Sam and Dean were working off of John's limited knowledge.  I accept the idea that the lore evolves as Sam and Dean learn more.

But mileage varies.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

I'm not bothered with the idea that Mary has been in Heaven for the last 30+ years.

How do you explain her ghost still being in Kansas 11 years ago, though? If her soul was in Heaven, it couldn't be also stuck in the veil, IMO. That's what's being questioned. Even though my own personal view is she shouldn't have been in Heaven--simply because I'm twisted and kinda think you shouldn't get a do over on these things--but I don't think it's inconceivable she would be granted a place in Heaven and been hidden away there...but only after she sacrificed herself to save Sam and Dean in S1. 

However, it is kinda interesting Amara thought she was doing Dean a favor by resurrecting his mother, but she certainly wasn't doing Mary any favors if she plucked her from Heaven to put her back on Earth to suffer more. Which, of course means, she really didn't do Dean any favors either. Those damn deities, they screw up more than they help, don't they? ;)

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

And I don't count much of season 1 as canon, other than the basic story.  I mean, look at the Reaper in Faith!  Have we seen another Reaper like that?

Yep, we saw them just like that in S5, Abandon All Hope. There were hundreds of them, in fact. But even if we didn't, that would line up with what we learned of reapers later because it was stated they can appear in any form they choose. Tessa just chose to appear to Dean in the form of a "pretty girl". In fact, one could argue, they're true form could be the creepy old guy in a suit.

While they were still figuring things out in S1, Mary being a ghost in S1 is actually kind of an important detail, IMO. I consider that cannon, for sure. 

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

How do you explain her ghost still being in Kansas 11 years ago, though?

Because, like I said, I have no problems with Heaven making exceptions for the Winchesters.  I'm okay with the idea that a poltergeist attacked the former Winchester home and Mary was allowed to defend it and the people in it.  Did someone say that Mary's ghost had been in the home since her death?  (Genuine question, no snark.)

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yep, we saw them just like that in S5, Abandon All Hope. There were hundreds of them, in fact.

I remember a bunch of Reapers in suits, but their faces weren't desiccated and zombie-like (which is what I was referring to):

.

So, IMO, the Reapers were originally considered monsters like demons and ghosts and vampires, etc., but the show's lore about them was changed to fit the story they wanted to tell in In My Time of Dying and later episodes.  

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

While they were still figuring things out in S1, Mary being a ghost in S1 is actually kind of an important detail, IMO. I consider that cannon, for sure.

I don't dispute that Mary was a ghost in Home, but I think that their idea of what a ghost is changed over the course of the show and I don't hold TPTB to the rules they established in S1, when they were still trying to figure out the rules.  And vice versa -- once they changed the lore to fit the new story, I don't necessarily apply it to earlier stories.  And, of course, there are always exceptions.  I'm not sure I consider any of the canon in the show "hard and fast".  Especially with a show that has gone on as long as this one.  

Besides, as I have stated many, many times, TPTB are not infallible.  They make mistakes.  It happens.  I'm not going to get worked up over it, that's all.

[pixelcat]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wasn't there a situation when ghosts were being controlled by witches or demons? I have a vague recollection but I can't remember the specifics. Or am I just confused?

In the psychic town of Lilydale episode, he was controlling the ghost by having her bones, but he wasn't a witch or demon.  It's the only ghost-being-controlled episode I can think of.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

In the psychic town of Lilydale episode, he was controlling the ghost by having her bones, but he wasn't a witch or demon.  It's the only ghost-being-controlled episode I can think of.

Besides, as he pointed out (and the ghost agreed), she *enjoyed* killing people.  He freed her to do what she was happy to do, just chose her victims for her.

Maybe Catrox was thinking of LARP and the Real Girl where the fairy was being controlled by the witch (wizard?) against her will? (Though I think it was the book he had that bound her, not his particular powers.)  

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Because, like I said, I have no problems with Heaven making exceptions for the Winchesters.  I'm okay with the idea that a poltergeist attacked the former Winchester home and Mary was allowed to defend it and the people in it.  Did someone say that Mary's ghost had been in the home since her death?

So, you're saying Mary got a reprieve from Heaven to go protect them in S1, but never again? I'm sorry that's too convenient and hand-wavy for me, but if it works for you... . 

No, it wasn't specifically said she was in the home since her death, but that's the way ghosts usually work on this show, even in S1. And, the little girl said she'd seen the fiery figure, who turned out to be Mary, a few times in the house. 

TBH, I don't think it's even something to be worried about yet, but just addressing many of the theories brought forward here. As I said, I just figured Misha misspoke. I seem to recall Misha saying he hadn't seen many episodes from before he joined the show and watched a couple of Manners' episodes for the first time to prepare for his directorial stint a couple years ago. Plus, I don't think the actors really dissect and remember these things the way the fans do. I'm guessing the show is going to say Mary was plucked from Heaven, and Misha just assumed she'd been there since her death because he's probably unaware of Mary being a ghost in S1.

But I do think it could be more interesting if they do address the issue and draw back on their own history rather than making a new history or just ignoring it altogether. That's the benefit of having a show with a 12-year history to draw from, IMO. 

54 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

So, IMO, the Reapers were originally considered monsters like demons and ghosts and vampires, etc., but the show's lore about them was changed to fit the story they wanted to tell in In My Time of Dying and later episodes.  

IMO, In My Time Of Dying didn't contradict what was said in S1 just expanded what was known of reapers at that time. I don't call that going against canon, myself, that's building mythology. I do think making reapers angels did go against canon in S8, though. IMO, it contradicted them being their own monster, as was established all the way back in S1 and, had been consistent up until that point. 

35 minutes ago, pixelcat said:

In the psychic town of Lilydale episode, he was controlling the ghost by having her bones, but he wasn't a witch or demon.  It's the only ghost-being-controlled episode I can think of.

Except he wasn't truly controlling her, she was a willing participant even though he did use a spell to manifest the ghost originally. But, now that you mention it, Hollywood Babylon had ghosts being controlled by a spell, too. The guy wasn't a witch either, per se, but he was controlling them and forcing them to do his biding. Perhaps one of those times are what you were thinking of @catrox14?

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[pixelcat]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, now that you mention it, Hollywood Babylon had ghosts being controlled by a spell, too. The guy wasn't a witch either, per se, but he was controlling them and forcing them to do his biding.

Ah you are right, that's what happens when your mind is stuck in Season 7!  He reminded me of the preacher's wife in "Faith", controlling via an amulet.

[Partly]

On 10/9/2016 at 3:39 PM, Demented Daisy said:

A foundry is a type of factory.

More than that a foundry is the most basic of factories -- it the is place where metal is created and castings are made.  It is, in many ways, a place of the creation of the building blocks of all things metal.  It also is a place where things are melted down and recreated, made into something new.

"Foundry" is a very good name; it has a lot of metaphorical punch.

[Demented Daisy]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, you're saying Mary got a reprieve from Heaven to go protect them in S1, but never again? I'm sorry that's too convenient and hand-wavy for me, but if it works for you... . 

I'm saying it's possible that Mary was given the opportunity to protect the people in the home, yes.  

That's the thing about a show called Supernatural -- pretty much anything is possible.  ;-)

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

IMO, In My Time Of Dying didn't contradict what was said in S1 just expanded what was known of reapers at that time. I don't call that going against canon, myself, that's building mythology.

My point, from the beginning, was that the Reapers in later episodes didn't look like the Reaper in Faith, which was one reason why I don't hold TPTB to the S1 canon.  They evolved the lore to fit the story they wanted to tell:

3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

And I don't count much of season 1 as canon, other than the basic story.  I mean, look at the Reaper in Faith!  Have we seen another Reaper like that?  To me, they were still working out the kinks in their story and were using traditional lore for all of their monsters/ghosts/demons/whatnot.  But, in later seasons, they needed to move beyond those traditional stories, which kind of negates what they said earlier.  Which I didn't have a problem with because Sam and Dean were working off of John's limited knowledge.  I accept the idea that the lore evolves as Sam and Dean learn more.

So, what I said is pretty much what you said -- they were building the mythology of the Reapers.  Same with ghosts, including Mary.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

My point, from the beginning, was that the Reapers in later episodes didn't look like the Reaper in Faith

In the episode in Season 5? with the ghost town or something where all the reapers were waiting for Death, I believe they all did look like the one in Faith but they established in In my time of Dying that Reapers would chose a different, more pleasing, shape to talk to their "charges". Of course since then they retconned the shit out of Reaper lore by turning them into dime-a-dozen angels and having some work for Crowley. Only not when it was convenient for Crowley to find a way to Purgatory.

At this point, I believe they retconned and bullshitted any and all lore they ever introduced in the first place. The only thing that still stands is Dean and Sam being the biological children of John and Mary Winchester. Some years back I wondered if they were gonna pull a surprise adoption story out of their hats but they haven`t. But supernatural lore is now, shall we say, fluid. 

[Demented Daisy]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In the episode in Season 5? with the ghost town or something where all the reapers were waiting for Death, I believe they all did look like the one in Faith

 

 

All "older" gentlemen in dark suits, but none have the make up effects used in Faith.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

Ah okay, thanks, for some reason I remembered them as being the same. Oh well, it just means "lore" really is whatever the respective writer currently needs or wants for an episode and whatever comes before or after be damned. Some of it couldn`t be helped with 12 years but it`s not like they are even trying anyhow. 

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, you're saying Mary got a reprieve from Heaven to go protect them in S1, but never again? I'm sorry that's too convenient and hand-wavy for me, but if it works for you... . 

No, it wasn't specifically said she was in the home since her death, but that's the way ghosts usually work on this show, even in S1. And, the little girl said she'd seen the fiery figure, who turned out to be Mary, a few times in the house.

Mary didn't act like a regular ghost even in Home, though. I mean how she just sort of blew herself up and took this other unknown spirit with her. (Where did THAT spirit go? Purgatory?). Other than Mary, I don't think we've ever seen a ghost vanquish itself before, right?

Also, literally every single ghost other than Mary, including Bobby and including that murdered priest in Houses of the Holy, has been bloodthirsty. So I think that Mary stands out in terms of that part of her behavior, too.

I don't really think we were necessarily meant to read into that, but it does make it easier for them to twist the mythology a bit now, and claim now that she was acting differently from other ghosts because $plot-reasons.

Also, I don't think that ghost!Mary saving Sam and Dean has anything to do with whether Mary then went to Heaven. It seems like Heaven is sort of the default option for human souls, unless the soul specifically pledged/sold itself to a demon or some demon dragged that specific soul down to Hell. In this show, I think Hell is basically like prison, and Heaven is like...I dunno, the regular world outside prison ;)

Personally, I think that saying she was in Purgatory makes the most practical/meta sense for the show, because it would explain her hunting skills, her aging, and take away the question of whether Amara bringing her back to earth was cruel. But who knows what direction the show will go in.

I think that Misha saying she was in Heaven likely means that she was in heaven at SOME point. I don't think that he is likely to have pulled that *completely* out of his ass. I mean, it's possible that he did, but I think it's more likely he got that idea from someone/somewhere. But even if Mary has been in Heaven in some capacity, how long would she have been there, under what circumstances, etc? I dunno.

I have no idea what Mary's reaction to being brought back to earth is going to be, but I wonder if she will want to look for John? If I were her, that's what my #1 priority would be.

ETA:

Oh wait, isn't Samuel Campbell's soul stuck in Hell now? If so, then getting him out would actually be my #1 priority. Can't let your dad just languish in Hell! Then priority #2 would be finding John ;)

Edited October 11, 2016 by rue721

[Partly]

38 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

All "older" gentlemen in dark suits, but none have the make up effects used in Faith.

It could just be that binding a Reaper affects the appearance of the reaper.  Binding it to a human's will and wishes creates a stress and strain that changes how a reaper looks.  I also though that by having Death look the way he did made a good explanation why reapers look (super)naturally the way they do -- they want to look like Death.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, literally every single ghost other than Mary, including Bobby and including that murdered priest in Houses of the Holy, has been bloodthirsty. So I think that Mary stands out in terms of that part of her behavior, too.

Actually not literally. There have been a few who were not at all bloodthirsty--as mentioned up thread, Molly in Roadkill and the ghosts in the mansion in Of Grave Importance. I believe we probably see more bloodthirsty ghosts simply because the bloodthirsty ones are ones causing problems and drawing attention to themselves. But, why wouldn't there be just as many friendly ghosts out there who aren't causing anyone any problems? 

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Mary didn't act like a regular ghost even in Home, though. I mean how she just sort of blew herself up and took this other unknown spirit with her. (Where did THAT spirit go? Purgatory?). Other than Mary, I don't think we've ever seen a ghost vanquish itself before, right?

Well, it all depends on your perspective, I guess. IMO, she did act like a regular ghost and her "vanquishing" herself was just what happens when they burn their bones. She just burned herself out rather than someone doing it for her.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, it all depends on your perspective, I guess. IMO, she did act like a regular ghost and her "vanquishing" herself was just what happens when they burn their bones. She just burned herself out rather than someone doing it for her.

OK, but I'm referring specifically to the fact that she managed to burn herself out.

Even if ghosts on the show theoretically always have the capacity to do that (like maybe in theory Bobby had the capacity to burn his flask and vanquish himself that way), in practice, ghosts on the show don't do that. In practice, they need somebody to actually burn the object that's tying them to the earth.

Mary's bones were already burnt (as well as all her stuff and her home), so if she were a regular ghost, it had to have been some other object tying her here. I would have guessed that the "object" would have been her sons, sort of like that ghost-kidney story. Everything else that was hers was gone. The show could have gone in a different direction there and had the confrontation be about how Sam and Dean couldn't "kill" ghost!Mary without killing at least some part of themselves that was tying her to them. That would have been in keeping with how they handled ghost lore before and since. But the show didn't do that, it just had her sort of...I dunno, become a gust of wind and carry the other spirit away somewhere. That's way out of the norm for how ghosts behave on this show. I think ghost!Mary was handled differently because it was a Very Special Episode about a Very Special Ghost, their mother. Not because they were trying to tweak the lore, really. But nevertheless, they tweaked the lore.

I don't have an issue with that in terms of canon. It's OK imo if some things are weird or inexplicable or inconsistent, it's *supernatural* ffs. My point is that I think that her out-of-the-norm behavior as a ghost gives the show some wiggle room in terms of explaining what was up with Mary in the afterlife. Since her ghost behavior was weird, I think there's some space for a plausible retcon. Like that she hadn't actually been stuck as a ghost in Lawrence, KS since 1983, or that that was something LIKE a ghost but not actually her ghost (like it was some avatar or echo of her or something), or whatever.

Do I think that it was meant to actually be her ghost in Home back in S1? Yes. Do I think that the show needs to go far into the weeds now, explaining how her current backstory/afterlife fits in with conventional ghost lore? No, not really. Usually, I'm all for the show using its own history to deepen the storylines/characters. But in this case, I think that it'll just shift the focus to lore nitpicking and actually hamstring the story, so I personally am fine with a handwave instead. YMMV.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Mary's bones were already burnt (as well as all her stuff and her home), so if she were a regular ghost, it had to have been some other object tying her here. I would have guessed that the "object" would have been her sons, sort of like that ghost-kidney story. Everything else that was hers was gone

The family pictures were in the house which the mom in Home gave back to Sam and Dean. Those would be the objects that tied her to the house. IMO she burned herself up in desperation to save her boys, kind of like being able to lift a car with a burst of adrenaline.

Edited October 11, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

All "older" gentlemen in dark suits, but none have the make up effects used in Faith.

The reaper in Faith was bound by the wife of the preacher and I've always assumed it made a difference in how he manifested visually as well as his actions. Kinda like being bound meant a part of his life force was being held apart from him hence the withered look. But then again it's been said that reapers could choose their forms so maybe he just wanted to look extra creepy, either way works for me, what doesn't work for me is season 8 and beyond reaper retconning. Bah!

ETA: Or what Partly posted that I missed. Sorry.

Edited October 11, 2016 by trxr4kids
I can't read and post and talk to my adult kids all at once

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

It could just be that binding a Reaper affects the appearance of the reaper.  Binding it to a human's will and wishes creates a stress and strain that changes how a reaper looks.

 

22 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

The reaper in Faith was bound by the wife of the preacher and I've always assumed it made a difference in how he manifested visually as well as his actions. Kinda like being bound meant a part of his life force was being held apart from him hence the withered look.

Death was bound and it didn't affect his appearance.  *shrug*  Personally, I don't care why all Reapers don't look alike.  I only mentioned the fact that the later Reapers don't look like the Reaper in Faith to illustrate my point that stories evolve over time.

[goldy]

[Binns]

8 minutes ago, goldy said:

Just came here to post this! I'm starting to get more excited about Mary. I was leery after the finale. I dig that she's so tough. 

 

Is it me or is captured Sam smoking hot? 

[goldy]

5 minutes ago, Binns said:

Just came here to post this! I'm starting to get more excited about Mary. I was leery after the finale. I dig that she's so tough. 

 

Is it me or is captured Sam smoking hot? 

For me, the only reason I even came back for S12 is Mary. I was very excited for the boys to get their mother back and I'm loving what I see so far. 

I always felt that "hurt Sam" and "protective Dean" are very attractive. 

[SueB]

I LOVE Mary's little "No."  I know we've seen that Sam Smith can act through the various incarnations of "Mary" over the years, but I love how both obvious, simple, and yet meaningful her little "No." is.  She's NOT okay, nor should she be.

I also love how CALM Dean is with Mary.  He gets the freakout.  He puts his OWN freakout on hold because he's worried (immediately) about keeping her calm.  Not because she can really hurt him.  But because he wants to avoid doing anything that hurts her. 

Also, I freaking LOVE LOVE that Sam says he's been tortured by the Devil himself, what can SHE do?  Of course Dean made it clear that Hell pain and Earth pain are different.  But I love that he said it anyway.  Keep to the bravado Sammy. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Even if ghosts on the show theoretically always have the capacity to do that (like maybe in theory Bobby had the capacity to burn his flask and vanquish himself that way), in practice, ghosts on the show don't do that. In practice, they need somebody to actually burn the object that's tying them to the earth.

Isn't that a matter of motivation, though? I mean, It's ghost suicide. So, yeah, I believe they all have the ability to do it, it's just not done frequently because they don't want to die...again. ;)

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Mary's bones were already burnt (as well as all her stuff and her home), so if she were a regular ghost, it had to have been some other object tying her here.

It doesn't have to be an object that ties a ghost to a place, sometimes it can be something emotional. It's certainly easier to get rid of the ghost if it is DNA or something physical though. Getting them to let go of their emotional ties is much harder.

[Aeryn13]

I hope Mary is not just super-hunter, super-competent, super-tough 24/7 just to show how much of a "badass" she is. Especially at the expense of other characters. I`m pretty sure that is exactly how it`s gonna go down though because the writers are incapable of anything other than zero sum. Well, why not ruin another character like that, The more, the merrier.

Also, I find it kind of disturbing that it suddenly became "Amara gave this gift to the brothers". No, she didn`t, she meant it for Dean. I get that it affects Sam just as much but they are still distinct characters, not an amorphous mass. 

Eh, I hope the Premiere is a lot better than the spoilers and promos indicate. So far, it looks pretty meh.

[goldy]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

I hope Mary is not just super-hunter, super-competent, super-tough 24/7 just to show how much of a "badass" she is. Especially at the expense of other characters. I`m pretty sure that is exactly how it`s gonna go down though because the writers are incapable of anything other than zero sum. Well, why not ruin another character like that, The more, the merrier.

I actually saw an interesting article today on EW that addresses some of your concerns about the Mary character.

here's the link: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/11/supernatural-mary-winchester-season-12

and some highlights:

• Speaking to how Mary will affect the show, Dabb says: “At the heart, the dynamic of the show is unchanged in that it’s always going to be about the brothers, it’s always going to be about the family they’ve put together, and Mary doesn’t so much upset that as complement it. When she comes in, it’s family through another lens. She is their origin myth, her death led to everything, so when she comes back, the boys having a mother again which they really haven’t had.”
• We never want to shift the focus of the show off Sam and Dean, so by bringing Mary in, it’s more along the lines of: How does she affect Sam? How does she affect Dean? She and Castiel form a really interesting friendship and we think she’s a nice pivot point around which we can spin our characters.”

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, goldy said:

I actually saw an interesting article today on EW that addresses some of your concerns about the Mary character.

here's the link: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/11/supernatural-mary-winchester-season-12

and some highlights:

• Speaking to how Mary will affect the show, Dabb says: “At the heart, the dynamic of the show is unchanged in that it’s always going to be about the brothers, it’s always going to be about the family they’ve put together, and Mary doesn’t so much upset that as complement it. When she comes in, it’s family through another lens. She is their origin myth, her death led to everything, so when she comes back, the boys having a mother again which they really haven’t had.”
• We never want to shift the focus of the show off Sam and Dean, so by bringing Mary in, it’s more along the lines of: How does she affect Sam? How does she affect Dean? She and Castiel form a really interesting friendship and we think she’s a nice pivot point around which we can spin our characters.”

Sounds promising to me.

[Aeryn13]

They always say that. And, granted, it`s probably always the truth on some level because that`s what the writers always come back to. Since I`m not invested in the brother bond at all - this show`s depiction of family is actually horrific to me - that was never my concern. My concern is that Mary is gonna add a "Sue" to her name like Charlie did. And Dean and Sam will be made to look extra-incompetent next to her so she can shine. From the promos, I`d say that`s the route they are gonna go.

[catrox14]

Soooo, in the finale Amara says to Dean, "You (meaning Dean) gave me what I needed the most. I'd like to do the same for you". And boom Mary is put in Dean's path, literally.  Given the connection between Dean and Amara, and her looking at his picture with Mary and being in his head, and controlling him and helping him and what not, that she did it for Dean. 

And now, Jensen is saying, after a long talk with the Darkness, she gives them BOTH what they need. That it was a gift to both Sam and Dean. I see you, writers. I see it. And I am not the least surprised. 

I'm calling it now. This will an exploration for Sam because he never got that crust cut off his PB&J.  Whatever Dean's mindframe etc about Mary will be secondary to Sam and Mary because Dean at least had 4 years and Sam had none. I don't begrudge Sam having that opportunity. I begrudge the obvious shift since the finale and/or that Amara didn't really mean only Dean which is  what was sold in the finale

Edited October 11, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Soooo, in the finale Amara says to Dean, "You (meaning Dean) gave me what I needed the most. I'd like to do the same for you". And boom Mary is put in Dean's path, literally.  Given the connection between Dean and Amara, and her looking at his picture with Mary and being in his head, and controlling him and helping him and what not, that she did it for Dean. 

And now, Jensen is saying, after a long talk with the Darkness, she gives them BOTH what they need. That it was a gift to both Sam and Dean. I see you, writers. I see it. And I am not the least surprised. 

I'm calling it now. This will an exploration for Sam because he never got that crust cut off his PB&J.  Whatever Dean's mindframe etc about Mary will be secondary to Sam and Mary because Dean at least had 4 years and Sam had none. I don't begrudge Sam having that opportunity. I begrudge the obvious shift since the finale and/or that Amara didn't really mean only Dean which is  what was sold in the finale

This was clearly Jared and Jensen speaking responding to "what happens to Sam and Dean this year" question versus a scripted promo.  Scripted is really evident.  This was more interview like.  So, I think you should take your concerns up with Jensen Ackles vs the writers.  This is CLASSIC Jensen IMO.  Unless it's a story line solely about Dean, he's going to make it about the brothers.  He's very protective of Jared IMO and the bigger story (at the start of the season) is the way Mary interacts with the boys.  So if he only talked about Mary and Dean (which is what the film clips portrayed), then it would look like Mary is ONLY a Dean story.  It's not likely to be that way. Yes, Amara gave her to Dean.  She didn't know Sam at all.  But if Jensen spins it as both, that tracks with his past behavior.  He always spins it for the total show, not just his character, unless he can't avoid it. 

In short, they weren't reading from cue cards.  And I'd be shocked if they got a note to only say both brothers when talking about Mary.  I don't see the writers (or EP's) controlling them that tightly )see EW photo shoot... if ever you would think they would get involved, it would be an EW photo shoot, not some minor CW_SPN snippet).

[goldy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since I`m not invested in the brother bond at all - this show`s depiction of family is actually horrific to me - that was never my concern.

Well, I guess if you're not into the brothers bond, you'll never be truly happy with the show, as I feel the show has always put the brothers relationship as the main focus.

For me, personally, the Sam and Dean relationship is the main reason I watch, so everything about them and every character that will effect their lives (as Mary surely will) is a great and welcome addition.

Quote

My concern is that Mary is gonna add a "Sue" to her name like Charlie did. And Dean and Sam will be made to look extra-incompetent next to her so she can shine. From the promos, I`d say that`s the route they are gonna go.

I'm sure they'll dedicate an episode or two to show us how badass Mary is, but I'm not so sure that it would go on for too long. We'll probably going to see Mary vulnerable and weak and struggling to find herself in the new reality that she came to, later in the season. 

I'm not concerned about Sam and Dean being made to look incompetent, I'm sure the writers will let Mary have her moments and let her show the boys a trick or two, but that won't make the boys any less of a hunters and it would probably be going on for the first few episodes. Later, I'm sure, Sam and Dean will show her a few tricks of their own.

Edited October 11, 2016 by goldy

[Binns]

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

This was clearly Jared and Jensen speaking responding to "what happens to Sam and Dean this year" question versus a scripted promo.  Scripted is really evident.  This was more interview like.  So, I think you should take your concerns up with Jensen Ackles vs the writers.  This is CLASSIC Jensen IMO.  Unless it's a story line solely about Dean, he's going to make it about the brothers.  He's very protective of Jared IMO and the bigger story (at the start of the season) is the way Mary interacts with the boys.  So if he only talked about Mary and Dean (which is what the film clips portrayed), then it would look like Mary is ONLY a Dean story.  It's not likely to be that way. Yes, Amara gave her to Dean.  She didn't know Sam at all.  But if Jensen spins it as both, that tracks with his past behavior.  He always spins it for the total show, not just his character, unless he can't avoid it. 

In short, they weren't reading from cue cards.  And I'd be shocked if they got a note to only say both brothers when talking about Mary.  I don't see the writers (or EP's) controlling them that tightly )see EW photo shoot... if ever you would think they would get involved, it would be an EW photo shoot, not some minor CW_SPN snippet).

Yeah, I think at the con this past weekend he even alluded to this habit of his- speaking about traits thy share with their characters- that he tended to put others before him sometimes to a fault. 

 

@goldy I also mainly watch for Sam & Dean and their relationship. It fascinates me. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean.  She didn't know Sam at all.  But if Jensen spins it as both, that tracks with his past behavior.  He always spins it for the total show, not just his character, unless he can't avoid it. 

Sorry but I disagree that Jensen always spins it to being about the boys. He might be a team player but he doesn't always do that. I didn't start watching live until s9 so I don't know how he talked about Dean's SL's in s8 with Purgatory but he sure talks about his disappointment at how it kind of went nowhere and that he would like to see Benny come back. Before s10 he was all over talking about Demon!Dean in and of itself with little discussion in relation to Sam. He was obviously excited about demon!Dean and that he was disappointed it ended so early. He said a few times " they wanted to get back to telling other stories". He was going with the company line that also happened to be focused on Dean.

Once s10 ended he started talking about just sitting next to Sam and bailing his ass out.  He tried to talk about Dean's connection to Amara but it was so damn vague and ambiguous he couldn't really talk about with any kind of depth, because IMO he didn't understand it either. IMO to have something to talk about and because he's a team player and team leader, he brought it back to being about the brothers. That would reflect the shift in the show IMO as much as his own viewpoint. 

As to that promo, it was recorded when they were shooting the promos at the Flash studio ( they are wearing the same wardrobe). At a couple of subsequent cons they were were teasing each other about messing up the promos and that Mark Sheppard pranked Jared with something Jared was supposed to read. That tells me they are working from a general script or guidelines about what they are saying. They aren't producers as far as I know, so whatever they are saying seems much more likely  based off the current story lines. Also, Jensen is a great actor, so he's also good at making a promo seem more natural and conversational.  JMHO

[MysteryGuest]

Well, even though Amara said she was giving Dean something he needs, there's no way to bring back their mother and not have it be a factor for both Sam and Dean.  As long as the show deals with both of their reactions to having her back, I'll be fine with it.  

I'm hoping that since there is no real Big Bad this season, the focus of the episodes will be on both brothers this season, like it was last year.  I prefer when they both have an equal role to play.

Based on that little snippet we just saw, it doesn't appear that Mary remembers much of where she's been, or even that she's been dead.  If her last memory is checking on Sam, that could make things very interesting.

[catrox14]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm fine with Sam getting to know Mary. I just wish they hadn't written the dialogue that implied Amara did it for Dean. 

Of course, now I can totally see it being written that it was really Dean's need/wish for Sam to see Mary especially with the extended moment when Sam is lingering at Mary's grave and then finger kissed her headstone. I think I might have even made that suggestion in the finale thread. I'll have to look just see if I did.

Edited October 11, 2016 by catrox14

[Diane]

2 hours ago, goldy said:

Well, I guess if you're not into the brothers bond, you'll never be truly happy with the show, as I feel the show has always put the brothers relationship as the main focus.

For me, personally, the Sam and Dean relationship is the main reason I watch, so everything about them and every character that will effect their lives (as Mary surely will) is a great and welcome addition.

 

I have to agree, this show is about 2 brothers and their relationship. That's the basis for the entire show. It is why i love it.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

This was clearly Jared and Jensen speaking responding to "what happens to Sam and Dean this year" question versus a scripted promo.  Scripted is really evident.  This was more interview like.  So, I think you should take your concerns up with Jensen Ackles vs the writers.  This is CLASSIC Jensen IMO.  Unless it's a story line solely about Dean, he's going to make it about the brothers.  He's very protective of Jared IMO and the bigger story (at the start of the season) is the way Mary interacts with the boys.  So if he only talked about Mary and Dean (which is what the film clips portrayed), then it would look like Mary is ONLY a Dean story.  It's not likely to be that way. Yes, Amara gave her to Dean.  She didn't know Sam at all.  But if Jensen spins it as both, that tracks with his past behavior.  He always spins it for the total show, not just his character, unless he can't avoid it. 

In short, they weren't reading from cue cards.  And I'd be shocked if they got a note to only say both brothers when talking about Mary.  I don't see the writers (or EP's) controlling them that tightly )see EW photo shoot... if ever you would think they would get involved, it would be an EW photo shoot, not some minor CW_SPN snippet).

This is also true if you watch many of his interviews and con videos.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Diane

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Once s10 ended he started talking about just sitting next to Sam and bailing his ass out.  He tried to talk about Dean's connection to Amara but it was so damn vague and ambiguous he couldn't really talk about with any kind of depth, because IMO he didn't understand it either. IMO to have something to talk about and because he's a team player and team leader, he brought it back to being about the brothers. That would reflect the shift in the show IMO as much as his own viewpoint. 

Except that if what Jensen implied about season 11 was that the storyline was about "the brothers," that would've been somewhat misleading in that the storyline was about Dean, and for me, the storyline wasn't all that vague. I knew that Dean's connection to Amara was going to be important to solving the Amara problem from the very beginning of the season. And as much as I liked season 11, I wouldn't exactly call the main arc of it a "brother" storyline. Sam's mini-arc - since it was over by episode 10 - more paralleled Dean's storyline than was a part of it, and then it shifted over to Castiel and Crowley/Rowena. I might've disagreed about Sam's storyline being over if there had been more follow up and/or addressing of Sam's feelings concerning Lucifer in Castiel, but once Sam had the courage to say "no," that seemed to be the end of that arc and the writers didn't seem to want to address it anymore even when it didn't make sense characterwise not to address it. And since saying "yes" didn't even have any bad ramifications really (at least not yet - it may in season 12), it wasn't even an arc that really had much to do with the main storyline in that it was a red herring (which I also knew by the second episode when I predicted that Sam's hallucinations were actually Lucifer).

My main point here is that the tone of the first few episodes doesn't necessarily reflect what's going to happen during the season, so predictions and impressions based on the first few episodes aren't always going to be correct, even by the people portraying characters in the show. In the first few episodes, it might've looked like what was happening with Sam was going to be important - unless you are somewhat of a show cynic like me that is - but that isn't what happened at all in the end. It went right back to having to do with the mark of Cain and Dean's connection with it that we had in season 10.

41 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm hoping that since there is no real Big Bad this season, the focus of the episodes will be on both brothers this season, like it was last year.  I prefer when they both have an equal role to play.

I agree, and I think that the key to this - for me, anyway - is having solid one-off episodes that are about both brothers or at least about each of the brothers more or less equally. Because even though the main arc was mainly about Dean and his connection to Amara, most of the monster-of-the-week episodes were about the brothers together or shifted focus between the two. It's the main reason I liked this season so much.

[MysteryGuest]

You can add me to the list of those who watch for the brother bond.  Without that, I know I wouldn't be here.  I doubt that I'd have made it through even a handful of episodes when I started to watch on Netflix.  For a show on a "lesser" network, with a low budget, sub-par writers, inconsistent canon, etc., they sure hit the jackpot when they cast these two men as brothers.  They have made their story compelling in spite of everything else.  I continue to watch because I care about what happens to them.  After 12 years, that says a lot, I think.

[catrox14]

Here's something else I don't understand.  Ghost!Mary recognized both adult!Dean and adult!Sam in Home. Her soul recognized them. Am I now to believe that her soul doesn't remember seeing her adult children when she sacrificed herself to save them?

It's almost like Mary doesn't even know that she died that night nor that Sam died.

They've got a lot of splainin' to do.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It's almost like Mary doesn't even know that she died that night nor that Sam died.

In that little snippet we just got, it doesn't appear that she does know she died.  Dean tells her he was four when she died.  At least based on that clip, he doesn't exactly ease her into the news.  That's our boy!

[GirlyGeek]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's something else I don't understand.  Ghost!Mary recognized both adult!Dean and adult!Sam in Home. Her soul recognized them. Am I now to believe that her soul doesn't remember seeing her adult children when she sacrificed herself to save them?

It's almost like Mary doesn't even know that she died that night nor that Sam died.

They've got a lot of splainin' to do.

well, Dean didn't remember being a ghost in S2, not until S4 when Tessa gave him the memories back.
And Sam and Dean didn't remember all their deaths and trips to heaven, until Joshua sent them back and said God wanted them to remember.
And, its entirely possible that memories will filter in during the first episode or so... more drama that way ;)

Edited October 12, 2016 by GirlyGeek

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

In that little snippet we just got, it doesn't appear that she does know she died.  Dean tells her he was four when she died.  At least based on that clip, he doesn't exactly ease her into the news.  That's our boy!

And I have no issue with Dean's response because the last time Dean saw her was when she was a ghost and she recognized them. Why would he now think she didn't remember being dead? What a mess.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry but I disagree that Jensen always spins it to being about the boys. He might be a team player but he doesn't always do that.

 

...

 At a couple of subsequent cons they were were teasing each other about messing up the promos and that Mark Sheppard pranked Jared with something Jared was supposed to read. That tells me they are working from a general script or guidelines about what they are saying.

I've seen him verbalize disappointment AFTER an episode has aired but never before.

The prank was when they were doing a bunch of individual Station promos.  And the script said "Mark Shepard TV".  Jared made an apparently expletive filled comment about Mark getting his own TV channel.

It's possible it's at the same time as this clip, but I would think going through a bunch of TV channels would not be something they did on that particular day.  

I'll stand by my assessment, that's Jensen talking, not some script he was handed.  I think Jensen chose to say Amara gave Mary to the boys, I don't think he was told he had to phrase it that way.

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe we need to just assume that the death experience is different for everyone?  It's going to make my head hurt, otherwise.  It's possible that when they remind Mary about what she did in House, that memory will come back to her.  Who knows...

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

The prank was when they were doing a bunch of individual Station promos.  And the script said "Mark Shepard TV".  Jared made an apparently expletive filled comment about Mark getting his own TV channel.

It's possible it's at the same time as this clip, but I would think going through a bunch of TV channels would not be something they did on that particular day.  

Actually, I believe it was the same day. I saw something from a recent con and I thought they said it was on the same day they were goofing around on The Flash set for the promo pictures and they were talking about how Jensen just reads them off the teleprompter cold, but Jared usually likes to see it ahead of time and get it in his head first. There was also something about them being a very bad example for the cast of The Flash. It was very cute!

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's something else I don't understand.  Ghost!Mary recognized both adult!Dean and adult!Sam in Home. Her soul recognized them. Am I now to believe that her soul doesn't remember seeing her adult children when she sacrificed herself to save them?

It's almost like Mary doesn't even know that she died that night nor that Sam died.

They've got a lot of splainin' to do.

Maybe the trauma was so great she blocked it all out?

Edited October 12, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Jensen was scripted to say anything, but after having read a few scripts and knowing where the storyline was going to go this year, it probably made sense to him to say that Mary was given to both of them, regardless of how last season ended.  They've talked for months now about how having their mother back affects them both, so what he said doesn't bother me.  

I get where others are coming from, however, and I will be annoyed if they make it all about Sam's reaction to her return.  I don't think they'll do that (she says optimistically), but it's been done before.

Edited October 12, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

'll stand by my assessment, that's Jensen talking, not some script he was handed.  I think Jensen chose to say Amara gave Mary to the boys, I don't think he was told he had to phrase it that way.

I'm not understanding why you would think this wasn't part of all the promo shooting when it's on the same stage in the same wardrobe? Chico was on set with them for all this. I don't think he was told specifically to phrase it that way, but I sure do think they were given guidelines about what to talk about which means reinforcing that Mary is there for both Sam and Dean not just Dean.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Also, I freaking LOVE LOVE that Sam says he's been tortured by the Devil himself, what can SHE do?  Of course Dean made it clear that Hell pain and Earth pain are different.  But I love that he said it anyway.  Keep to the bravado Sammy. 

I've often wondered about Dean's torture vs Sam's. Sam was tortured by Lucifer who still needed him to be his vessel and he was in the Cage so not subject to the random torture anyone could do. 

I'm not saying one is worse than the other. I wonder if the nature, the people doing it, the purpose of the torture is different for the guy that sold his soul vs the guy that said yes to an archangel.  Just musings.