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Mysteries and Conspiracies: Speculation

Trini

By Trini
in 12 Monkeys [V]

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SpectreH

SpectreH

What if the Witness is some future version of Cole who has seen too many timeline variations and now just wants to set it back by releasing the virus.  The Pallid Man has said that the Witness is seen where all this leads and wants to set things right.

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Cthulhudrew

Cthulhudrew

I'm fairly certain the Witness is someone we've already been introduced to, and while Cole is my leading suspect, I kind of wonder if it might not turn out to be Ramse instead. Ramse is made out to be the moral center of the storyline (or at least the future, with Cassie being the past/present one) so if something were to change that, or if Ramse decides that the future needs to stay as it is, that would put him at odds with Cole.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

From the "Tomorrow" episode thread:

...What I'm really afraid of is Cassie and Cole having a "special" child - a trope I've never ever seen realized well. Please, show, don't do it. Ever....

I am counting on this show not going there because the writers should know better. However, the child could be special in the sense of having Cole's immunity plus maybe an immunity inherited from Cassie against the future (post 2043) mutations of the virus. That seems like a reasonable amount of specialness to me.

...The ages eliminates most of the people we've met as possible Cole/Cassie kid. Their child would have to be younger than 27. I'm hoping their isn't a child, but it's looking like there must be....

Which is why I'm so stuck on the idea of Jones having adopted Cassie's orphaned child--which died. And then, if my speculation directly above (in this post) is correct, Jones' obsession with saving the child wouldn't be ego driven. Edited by shapeshifter
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Chaos Theory

Chaos Theory

This is pure speculation so I am putting it here.  But my guess for season 2 is Fate vs Free Will.  Season 1 was largely about how you can't change fate but I think season 2 is how free will comes into play.  (Like Cole going back to save Ramse and sending Cassie to the future)  

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David L

David L

(edited)

Ok so heres my thoughts, there were time travel attempts before Cole was sent back so #1 the thousand year old corpse that the plague is derived from is the remains of a earlier attempt by Jones to send someone back therefore ultimately causing the plague (paradox) #2 Olivia's father is was also a time traveller and that's where he got his fore knowledge and passed it on to her and also why she doesn't age. Possibly one of the previous attempts by Jones or somebody that hasn't gone back yet.

Edited by David L
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Melissa56789

Melissa56789

One of the big questions for the series is, "who or what is The Witness"?

What if The Witness isn't a single person.

What if instead The Witness is a collective of "Primaries" that have found their way into the Red Forest.

That might explain the reason why The Witness's knowledge of the time stream isn't always accurate / current.

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

Excellent musings & queries, Melissa56789.

I, myself, am starting to wonder if The Witness is actually a real person now.  What if The Witness is only in people's minds?  And they only see him/talk to him after drinking the red-leaves tea?  The real question then becomes, even if just mostly a hallucination from the tea, what makes leaves red?

Does that make red-leaves tea, 'The Witness', time itself??

 

..... just some wool-gathering wandering thoughts I had after some reflection after last night's episode and past ones.......

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

(edited)

Something I just got to thinking about....... why are most of Cole's time-traveling destinations - sometimes locations, and definitely dates - always so far off from where Jones intends to send him?  As far as we know, both Ramse and Cassie have ended up exactly where they were supposed to be sent, both place & time-wise.  I know Jones made a joke about it being the alcohol in his system, in 1.5, but I don't think that's the reason.  These are a few examples, just right off the top of my head.....

  1.   In 1.1, Cole was sent back too early, initially
  2.   In 1.2, Cole initially ended up in North Korea in 2006, instead of the intended spot in 2015
  3.   In 2.3, Cole was meant to have arrived hours, possibly days, before (or after) Cassie in 1944, but it ended up being 2 months                                                                                                                                                                                   

Is there something there to keep an 'eye' on, or just quirky incidents that the writers just throw in randomly?  Only time will tell *ha!*, I suppose.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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MarkZ

MarkZ

15 hours ago, jennenen said:

My new pet theory is that Ramse's son it the Witness; that way Ramse has to "kill" his son to save the world.

I was thinking that too after last week. I was thinking he's either the Witness or, after traveling way back in time, he's the original corpse with the disease. If not somehow both.

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coppersin

coppersin

As someone that has zero interest in Sam beyond his use as a plot point, I really hope he isn't the Witness. When that plague mask finally comes off, my reaction shouldn't be "meh" or "ugh, you again."

Despite already having an adult offspring pop up, I'm still hanging onto my theory/hope that Sam shows up all grown up and evil because he was raised by the Witness or one of his followers. They'll probably have Ramse have to kill his own son for Maximum Dramatic Effect!, but Kirk Acevedo would rock those scenes.

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

(edited)

I can definitely see the speculation behind Sam [as either The Witness or just evil because of being raised by TW or the 12Ms] and Ramse having to kill him to save Time/the world/Cole/etc.  But I'm betting Ramse dies in the process himself, considering KA has a bit of a track record in similar situations (see: Fringe [/*spoilers*]).

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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dcurbe

dcurbe

Hi, still act? I have a couple of questions...... I appologize if are dumb but well....

1) why in 1.9 the cass watch back to normal?

2) why in 1.6 Jones not recognize cole if she knows he even as a child? 

Note: I just saw the first season so.... if the answers are in season 2 just say it! 

Thk everyone.

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dargosmydaddy

dargosmydaddy

12 hours ago, dcurbe said:

 

Hi, still act? I have a couple of questions...... I appologize if are dumb but well....

1) why in 1.9 the cass watch back to normal?

2) why in 1.6 Jones not recognize cole if she knows he even as a child? 

Note: I just saw the first season so.... if the answers are in season 2 just say it! 

Thk everyone.

 

I'm doing my own season one rewatch while also watching season 2 (quite fun, by the way...)

1) I'm not entirely sure, but the watch would have to be unscratched when Cole brings it back to scratch it in the first place in the pilot... hmmm... maybe someone better with the timey-wimey stuff can explain that one.

2) I think she definitely knew Cole, but didn't want to show her hand and mess with his own timeline by letting on. Hence her certainty in 1.9 when Cole hears his name on the recording and says how does she know that means him. She goes on about fate and whatnot, but of course she knows because of meeting him in 2016.

And speaking of questions... did I miss something in an early season 2 episode that explains why no one gets sick anymore when they time travel?

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dcurbe

dcurbe

On 19/6/2016 at 3:40 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

I'm doing my own season one rewatch while also watching season 2 (quite fun, by the way...)

1) I'm not entirely sure, but the watch would have to be unscratched when Cole brings it back to scratch it in the first place in the pilot... hmmm... maybe someone better with the timey-wimey stuff can explain that one.

2) I think she definitely knew Cole, but didn't want to show her hand and mess with his own timeline by letting on. Hence her certainty in 1.9 when Cole hears his name on the recording and says how does she know that means him. She goes on about fate and whatnot, but of course she knows because of meeting him in 2016.

And speaking of questions... did I miss something in an early season 2 episode that explains why no one gets sick anymore when they time travel?

Thx for answers...... well, when they change the timeline, the New doctor (katarina boyfriend) explain cass that they use a New fórmula for inyection pre-jump what controls better the side effects! 

I understand something (I think) about 1) and its that the season 2 its happening in the 2 years that cole lost in chechenia, (or at least they think do something like that) cause when Cole see cass she say that they live a lot of stuff (making reference to the future cole) so, I think in the season finale its coming a reset or something cause its the only thing that make sense....

Obviusly, they can ignore this fact and just continue to other waters, and make the cass watch fix just a mistake without meaning.... 

In 2) I agree, she have to lie to not mess with the timeline, 

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Jaded Sapphire

Jaded Sapphire

On 6/19/2016 at 3:53 AM, dcurbe said:

2) why in 1.6 Jones not recognize cole if she knows he even as a child? 

Are you talking about the episode where Cole is transported to an alternate 2043? IF that's the case, Jones didn't know Cole because he'd traveled to a timeline where Cassie died before the rest of the season could happen (including Jones meeting Cole as a child and adult in late 2015). Jones legitimately didn't know him. That's all fixed by the end of the episode.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

Someone posted this intriguing (to me) theory on the IMDb boards:

Quote

[Deacon's] love for Cassie is why the witness demands she never be harmed so it's possible deacon is the witness. We know the witness is a male from Ramsey and Coles time

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

After watching Fatherland, and some reflection... are Cole plus some of the others immune to the virus, & its as-of-yet mutations, descendants (either directly or not) of the Messengers?  Take Kirschner's words on his project to create 'children who are stronger, faster, immune to diseases( or was the word he used 'viruses'?), (etc)'.  Going all the way back to the series premiere, when Peters was telling Leland Goines that Cole's biometrics were seriously advanced for their current time and scientific/medical abilities;  I, at first and for the longest time, thought it was due to the injections that Jones gives the time-travelers, but what if its not (or at least not all of the reason)?    Cole not only survived paradoxing himself, but made himself even stronger in the process in the sense that he can now splinter without a set numbered limit that will end up killing him.

Another part of the debate I am putting forth is that we've yet to learn just who James Cole's birth mother is, and her backstory.  Was she a Messenger who 'turned good'?  Was Cole's birth deliberately planned by The Witness/Time to have things play out like we've seen?? 

 

Just some musing thoughts and wonderings after pondering Kirschner's words about his creations for The Witness.....

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dargosmydaddy

dargosmydaddy

I'm getting more curious about Ramse. He's the one who lived decades after time travelling, yet hasn't aged, and he's the one who gets smacked in the face repeatedly but doesn't bruise. (Although... did he look beat up in "Shonin," either after his brawl with Cole or his repeated prison fights? I can't remember...)

There's been mention of Ramse's mom (Ramona) in an early episode, and presumably she died pre-plague, putting Ramse in foster care with Cole. He implied he didn't know who his dad was when he jokes that maybe it was Cole after Cole jokes about seeking out his mom when he time travels. Any chance his dad is the Pallid Man or someone similar?

Or perhaps that Ramse and Cole really are (half) brothers, considering both have a missing parent?

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MostlyC

MostlyC

I suspect that Jones' ex-husband is the Witness.

 But I will be happy if the Witness is not Cole/Cassie or any child they may have.  Haven't tv writers learnt that introducing a a kid is a Jump the Shark Moment is 90% of the time?

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Jaded Sapphire

Jaded Sapphire

On 6/19/2016 at 4:10 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

And speaking of questions... did I miss something in an early season 2 episode that explains why no one gets sick anymore when they time travel?

Way late but I was rereading the thread and realized nobody answered. It's one of the things that changed when Cole et all destroyed the virus, the serum (in the Plague starts in 2019 instead of 2017 timeline) doesn't eventually kill you.

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Jaded Sapphire

Jaded Sapphire

On 6/23/2016 at 3:41 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Another part of the debate I am putting forth is that we've yet to learn just who James Cole's birth mother is, and her backstory.  Was she a Messenger who 'turned good'?  Was Cole's birth deliberately planned by The Witness/Time to have things play out like we've seen?? .

 Madeleine Stowe?

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

(edited)
2 hours ago, Jaded Sapphire said:

 Madeleine Stowe?

That's the actress playing her, yes;  but other than that, we know nothing about Cole's mother aside from her name - or at least the name she used with Cole's dad - and that she was in some way, somehow, connected to the Aot12M or against them.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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coppersin

coppersin

16 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:
18 hours ago, Jaded Sapphire said:

 Madeleine Stowe?

That's the actress playing her, yes;  but other than that, we know nothing about Cole's mother aside from her name - or at least the name she used with Cole's dad - and that she was in some way, somehow, connected to the Aot12M or against them.

Has this actually been confirmed? Stowe as his MIA mother has been my go-to theory since her casting was announced. It would be nice to have one of my ideas validated, since the finale is sure to blow the rest out of the water.

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Bort

Bort

34 minutes ago, coppersin said:

Has this actually been confirmed? Stowe as his MIA mother has been my go-to theory since her casting was announced. It would be nice to have one of my ideas validated, since the finale is sure to blow the rest out of the water.

Who Madeline Stowe is playing has not been confirmed. The idea that she's playing Cole's mother is speculation. 

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bethy

bethy

I'm wondering if Ramse, Sam, Olivia, etc. are in the same time period as Cassie and Cole. We don't know exactly when Sam landed, right?

If everyone's in separate timelines, it's going to make for some logisitical issues, I think. Right now Jennifer is in 1917; Jones, Adler, Hanna, Daughters are in 2044; Cassie, Pallid Man, Witness Dementors are in 2163(?); Cole has gone after Cassie, so he's maybe in 2163, too; Ramse and co. are in whatever time Sam landed. That's at least three different storylines to follow and that can be hard.

I'll be sad/disappointed if we're denied any Cole and Ramse time because they're in different time zones all - or a big part - of the season.

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Cardie

Cardie

Wasn't Ramse in the 2044 Titan and told to run outside before it splintered? I'm assuming that Olivia and Sam were in 2044 and had left Titan during one of its previous visits to Colorado in that time period.

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MissLucas

MissLucas

It has never been specified where or rather when Sam ended up - the counter run back to 1190 or something but kept acting wonky and never really stopped. Some people think he's outside of time/in the red forest. The show has yet to explain how Olivia found Sam and how she manages to time-travel if she's not hitching a ride on Titardis.

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bethy

bethy

4 hours ago, Cardie said:

Wasn't Ramse in the 2044 Titan and told to run outside before it splintered? I'm assuming that Olivia and Sam were in 2044 and had left Titan during one of its previous visits to Colorado in that time period.

The guy said "Come with me," while they were still in Titan, but I don't think we saw them leave the facility. I assumed they had somehow splintered in the facility but apart from it since they ended up when Sam is.

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Aliferously

Aliferously

Yeah, another one who thinks that Cole is going to be the sacrifice mentioned on the promo poster.

Spoiler

MovieCole dies at the end.  so I am not imagining this is going to end with sunshine and beaches. I don't think he'll die per se. But I read somewhere that there's a sort of agency that monitors Time and makes sure it doesn't get too much out of hand. So my guess is (at best) that Cole will choose to work for them and is able to return to Cassie on occasion. I also think there will be another child that she does get to raise. I think I'd want that for Cassie most of all.

 

I don't think we'll see Ramse again. I think he would have been in someones pictures somewhere.

I also want to know what the original message said. Please, Cole what?

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wanderingnettle

wanderingnettle

On 6/8/2018 at 5:55 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Since this is a show that revolves around time travel, who wants to bet we'll see KA/Ramse at least once this final season - from some point in the past, before his death date from last season?

He does say 'see you soon' before he dies. As does Athan. I think we might see both of them again, but in timelines that have already happened for them. 

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

19 hours ago, wanderingnettle said:

He does say 'see you soon' before he dies. As does Athan. I think we might see both of them again, but in timelines that have already happened for them. 

Hmmm, I either forgot those lines were said or I didn't hear them.  Thanks.

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