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S08.E04: Zoey's Birthday Party


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I haven't had my coffee yet but you lost me!  What is a code of symbolism, what are code makers, I haven't a clue?!!!

 

Let me explain.

 

It was originally suggested that the producers of the show are showing so many scenes of Will eating so that the viewing public will know and understand that Will has some sort of eating disorder/disciplinary issue despite no verbal comments about the eating issue actually happening in the episode.

 

Wrestleswithflamingos's point is that there's no reason to be sneaky and send "coded messages" to the public in the form of these snacking and eating scenes because from a production standpoint, Bill and Jen don't have control over the content of the show in any serious sense. Sure, I think in order to have amicable work time, both sides of the equation, the Kliens and the producers, agree certain things are off limits, but there's really no reason to think the producers are so tied up by the Kleins's demands that they have to send out the word that Will may have problems in a series of coded scenes designed to clue in careful viewers that all is not well.

 

The reality of small children is that they mostly eat and cry and sleep.

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This episode irritated me in several instances. The obvious, Jen and the party planning was absolutely ridiculous. Will being just plain bad IMO, he knows exactly what he can do around Baba and mama and get away with. I don't have kids and I understand that a lot of his behaviors are normal for his age, my issue is that in a year or less Will will be taller and possibly heavier than Bill and Jen for sure. Therefore I would think they would be not so lax in disciplining him. On the episode where they installed the height chart in Wills room I believe Jen said Will was 6" shorter than mommy at 4 years old. I have been around 5 and 6 year olds and they are a handful to say the least and if not properly disciplined a nightmare. Imagining Jen trying to handle a 6 year old Will is scary to me. She will not be able to handle it if the discipline doesn't start now. I think in the first few episodes he had on a cross between a pull up and underwear but, since they were in a party setting and to make it easier on everybody a diaper was put on him for the party, that is understandable but, would that be confusing to Will??? I still can't quite understand why Bill has to make Jen a champion of all things dealing with medical treatment, it's as if she is the only person to have an IV flushed or go through what she's gone through. It just seems like he's reaching and it's not necessary iMO.

Jen and Bill are listed as "Consulting Producers" in the credits.  

 

I haven't had my coffee yet but you lost me!  What is a code of symbolism, what are code makers, I haven't a clue?!!!  LOL

 

 

I don't think that means they have any power as far as content on editing. I've noticed other TLC shows, Amy and Matt Roloff are consulting producers on their show and Kate and Jon Gosselin were on theirs.
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From my limited knowledge it's more due to Jen and the special access and knowledge she brings. She can suggest the areas or aspects that will be better for the show and handle access, technical knowledge, etc. The Roloffs brought a lot of LPA and other little people connections. Kate Gosselin just brought the bitch act. Does it give them control over the show, no. Does it give them a bit more ability to suggest episodes, themes, etc? Yes. The result could give them the leverage to keep more things they want private to remain private.

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Good for the kids getting some junk food on their special party day!   I love special occasions and everyone should have some party days!  Jen and Bill are wonderful parents, they know that making good memories are as important to good emotional health as is following healthy diets on most days.  Of course they do both!   Thankfully, they aren't turning Will and Zoey into little robots that must eat the same food every day and then worry about what other nosy boring people think.   The worst thing Bill and Jen could do is to teach those kids that everyone does things exactly the same way and if you don't you should label those that are different as either slow or a bad person.
 
Bill and Jen are awesome parents!  They have great instincts and I would have been thrilled if they were in my family.

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This episode irritated me in several instances. The obvious, Jen and the party planning was absolutely ridiculous. Will being just plain bad IMO, he knows exactly what he can do around Baba and mama and get away with. I don't have kids and I understand that a lot of his behaviors are normal for his age...

I don't think Will is just plain bad. He's naughty, for sure, and he does act out, but he's basically good-natured and good-hearted and that counts for a lot. He gets along with his little sister and never shows signs of rivalry with her. (My brother, who is 2 1/2 years older than me, remembers feeling resentment that I was born and held onto that for decades.) They do need to tighten up on the consequences when he does something wrong - you should never give up once you've told the child to do something, and they ignore you - but that's something they can still do if they choose to. They are still treating him like a little kid, when at this point his teachers are probably expecting him to act more like his 4 1/2 year-old peers. 

 

But Bill and Jen are aware that he's not happy at school, and that's something they can work with his teachers to figure out, and together they can come up with a plan. 

 

As for party food the day of the party, there shouldn't have been junk food after the party was over. I don't know how close to bedtime it was, but an apple and some cheese or peanut butter could still be a snack, with some protein and fiber. Enough with the cookies.

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I don't think will is plain bad, for the reasons you mentioned. It's that he is testing the boundaries- like all toddlers do- and learning that NO doesn't mean NO! Of course when there are no consequences he is going to do what he wants and not listen. This does not mean he is inherently bad- it means his parents are wet noodles and he knows it.

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I love how when will sneaks food, he sneaks some for Zoey too.  At least he isn't selfish with his ill-gotten gains. Lol/


Will isn't remotely close to any concept of human badness. 

The poster said that Will was "being" bad, not that he "is" bad.

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I love how when will sneaks food, he sneaks some for Zoey too.  At least he isn't selfish with his ill-gotten gains. Lol/

The poster said that Will was "being" bad, not that he "is" bad.

I guess there is a distinction between "to be" and "is," but I don't think either is true of Will. JMO. 

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I love how when will sneaks food, he sneaks some for Zoey too.  At least he isn't selfish with his ill-gotten gains. Lol.

 

Yep, Will is definitely "Robin Hood" when it comes to food.  If he's stealing for himself, he grabs some for Zoey too. That is just way too cute.

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It's not just his stature, it's his speech, and his behavior. I know a lot of boys his age, and you would never mistake them for toddlers (In our program toddlers are defined at 18 months to 3 years, when they leave that program they become preschoolers.)

And then, there is use of language. Our boys are capable of asking complex questions, speaking in complete sentences, and they chatter among themselves all day long. By the time we return from winter break, just two weeks sees a burst of maturity and you know they are on the way to kindergarten. It's not a matter of height, Will operates like a toddler.

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I don't mean this as a slam against Will, just what I see about he relates to typical boys his age. Usually we can tell from the first week of school who needs a consult for services. He would definitely fall into that category. And it's very possible he's receiving services for more than just speech, and they are not showing that. In fact, it would be inappropriate to share that info on a TV show.

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I think it is interesting that even Jen calls him a toddler or a mom with 2 toddlers. As a physician, 4.5 year olds are no longer characterized as a toddler. The cut off is 36 months. Now if she is referring to his developmental age, that is probably accurate, but even then would someone characterize a delayed child of say 10 a toddler if that is where their mental age lagged? 

 

I think Zoey is going to quickly surpass Will. She seems sharp.


Another thing that I noticed on the rewatch - I thought Jen had Zoey dressed absolutely adorable for the party. The denim jumper with the pink cowboy boots was perfect. I think Jen really has a talent for that kind of thing.

Jen is big into the look and accessorizing. I think the kids just complete a look for her, more so than Bill.

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I don't think Will is just plain bad. He's naughty, for sure, and he does act out, but he's basically good-natured and good-hearted and that counts for a lot. He gets along with his little sister and never shows signs of rivalry with her. (My brother, who is 2 1/2 years older than me, remembers feeling resentment that I was born and held onto that for decades.) They do need to tighten up on the consequences when he does something wrong - you should never give up once you've told the child to do something, and they ignore you - but that's something they can still do if they choose to. They are still treating him like a little kid, when at this point his teachers are probably expecting him to act more like his 4 1/2 year-old peers. 

 

But Bill and Jen are aware that he's not happy at school, and that's something they can work with his teachers to figure out, and together they can come up with a plan. 

 

As for party food the day of the party, there shouldn't have been junk food after the party was over. I don't know how close to bedtime it was, but an apple and some cheese or peanut butter could still be a snack, with some protein and fiber. Enough with the cookies.

I think he gets away with so much because if he has a meltdown, they can not physically remove him as easily as average sized parent's. I think he probably has some major meltdowns when they do refuse the food. I think one of the worst things Bill and Jen did was to emphasize and laugh about his food obsession and further that with the hashtag "cakecakecake". That to me demonstrated they just don't get it.

Bill and Jen are awesome parents!  They have great instincts and I would have been thrilled if they were in my family.

 

 

 

See I guess I don't see the instinct at all.

Edited by wrestlesflamingos
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Let me explain.

 

It was originally suggested that the producers of the show are showing so many scenes of Will eating so that the viewing public will know and understand that Will has some sort of eating disorder/disciplinary issue despite no verbal comments about the eating issue actually happening in the episode.

 

Wrestleswithflamingos's point is that there's no reason to be sneaky and send "coded messages" to the public in the form of these snacking and eating scenes because from a production standpoint, Bill and Jen don't have control over the content of the show in any serious sense. Sure, I think in order to have amicable work time, both sides of the equation, the Kliens and the producers, agree certain things are off limits, but there's really no reason to think the producers are so tied up by the Kleins's demands that they have to send out the word that Will may have problems in a series of coded scenes designed to clue in careful viewers that all is not well.

 

The reality of small children is that they mostly eat and cry and sleep.

I get it. This is TLC and frankly I don't think they care one iota about preserving any privacy for Will. And contractually I truly doubt Jen and Bill can say "don't show this or that". When the cameras roll in, all is fair game. Which may be why we see so much food. So we don't see a huge meltdown from Will. Oh, I think that is coming. They are getting in deep and drama sells.

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I'm fine with having Bill and Jen getting credit for what we see on the show.  I'm sure they are like most  compassionate normal folks, in that they don't even comprehend how anyone could focus on their children's toilet habits, or if their little ones wear pull-ups.  Worrying about those issues is beyond creepy to me...lol

 

I don't think kids in this modern age make a big deal of seeing other kid's "home movies", or even reality tv  exposure.  With social media and everyone posting hundreds of videos of their children's growing up moments,  everyone seems to be in the same boat.  I'm sure there are embarrassing moments for nearly everyone caught on film.

I disagree with the idea of reality TV with children to be benign in way, shape or form. These aren't home movies. Coupled with the show, Jen instagrams and tweets about the kids too. They have zero privacy, compared to Mom and Dad posting something on a private facebook page is entirely different than what Will and Zoey will have to look back on. And just because social media is out there, does not make invading a child's privacy is ok.

 

Can you imagine of you filmed your kids pediatrician  appointments at whatever age and broadcasted it over the internet many years later, without their permission? Oy! No way!

Agree. And if they thought they could get away with it, I think TLC would cover Will's toilet-training issues as well. This is where, I believe, Bill and Jen do assert themselves though, since there has been absolutely no video of any bathroom or diaper issues with either child so far.

Well they did have an episode last season in a restaurant with Grandma and Will's poopy diaper. It was probably one year ago, give or take. Now we are seeing his waist band frequently of a pull up or diaper or training underwear that is SO obvious.

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The Pull-Up issue isn't even on my radar screen. I assume that's a medical issue, and since it is so very personal and private, I'll leave it to his parents and his doctors.

It's his speech, language, and socialization that concern me. I would really love to see him and Zoey playing with some friends - not being on the lawn at the same time, but really playing - and as long as they're playing with cars, trucks or trains I think they would get along very well.

But we only see them interacting with adults, which is why we can wonder about Will's babyish behavior. I hope one of his classmates' families gives an OK for filming.

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I just watched the episode again and I think that Will doesn't seem to take Jen seriously or he knows he can get away with more from her. When Bill came downstairs and told Will to calm down he did and Jen chimed in with lets take a deep breath. Is that even what you say to a 4 year old? It just seems that she is uncomfortable when it comes to discipline. We did see the whole time out episode when he hit her and that made me think that she can handle it and she knows what she is doing. Now I am not so sure. Another part is when he ripped the paper he was cleaning the floor with and she told him it maybe a school paper and what did it say. Really? Some of the things that come out of her mouth, IMO, are not appropriate for a 3 and 4 year old. And off subject, where is mattymat, I think was his screen name, haven't seen him post this season??

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When they flashed back to an earlier episode where Jen was making "dirt" it was obvious how much she has aged. That's not a knock on her it's just that I never saw the earlier seasons and I was sihocked how young she looked back then. Late 20's or early 30's.

I do believe when they started filming she was celebrating her 35th birthday and then her 40th was last season. I think they both look old. Bad genes.

Edited by wrestlesflamingos
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The doctor they were talking to was an orthopedic doctor. I thought he was referring to Will's bone development. He didn't make any references to Will's eating habits or weight.

I don't see how conclusions about Will's diet can be reached from that doctor's visit.

His weight is also a hot topic that we discuss on here often and I am sure Jen and Bill log in once and awhile and maybe that is an aspect they don't won't discussed on air for possibly being ridiculed for the way they handle it.

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I don't know if anyone else noticed but, having a chronic illness and taking pain meds on occasion, I am thinking during the individual interview scenes Bill has already had his surgery because his eyes show clearly a high edge to them. IJS. And on the toilet In the garage, I don't think it's connected for those of you that would hold it..lol. I can't see Jen allowing that to be used as a bathroom anyway, let's be serious.

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 The Roloffs brought a lot of LPA and other little people connections. Kate Gosselin just brought the bitch act. .

 

The line about Kate made me laugh. Thank you for clearing that up. I too remembered their names being next to the word "Producer".

 

I took the part about Jen coming in to switch places with Bill & telling the kids it was nap time, as her way of keeping an eye on them as she let her body rest up a bit. Even though she asked those men to help them, we know that Jen was doing as much as she could because her OCD/Organization skills took over and Jen is little.  So, her lungs are tiny too(We got a glimpse on how she gets around the hospital, in her motorized chair.).

 

Can you imagine what she is like at work? 14 pages just for a birthday party? ;-)

 

On the topic of Will having food in his hand most of the show, I caulk it up to editing.  Also, depending on how he was treated in the Orphanage before they could adopt Will, he may be a few years back in development than the others who are 4 & 5. I do think that he is picking up English pretty well even when he has a problem pronouncing some words. "N-itch"

 

Zoey is so cute. Some of those girls thought of her as their own live doll. When you grow up smaller than others your age (or older) you learn how to deal with people who see you as that "doll", with patience and humor.   Bill & Jen will teach Zoey those skills. Very rarely do people even think about picking up a male in this way.

 

My favorite part of this episode was when Will called his dad "Bill" at the table. The look on Bill's face was priceless before he continued on, trying to ignore it.  "Beell", "Babba" ~ "Beell" lol


I do believe when they started filming she was celebrating her 35th birthday and then her 40th was last season. I think they both look old. Bad genes.

Aww, I would call it Life. 

 

I don't even look the same way I did 5 years ago. Thank goodness I don't have a cameraman following me around with an HD lens. ;-)

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I don't know if anyone else noticed but, having a chronic illness and taking pain meds on occasion, I am thinking during the individual interview scenes Bill has already had his surgery because his eyes show clearly a high edge to them. IJS. 

 

I didn't notice Bill's eyes although he did tell Dr Oz he was on pain meds big time and more so since the surgery.    

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I don't know if anyone else noticed but, having a chronic illness and taking pain meds on occasion, I am thinking during the individual interview scenes Bill has already had his surgery because his eyes show clearly a high edge to them. IJS. And on the toilet In the garage, I don't think it's connected for those of you that would hold it..lol. I can't see Jen allowing that to be used as a bathroom anyway, let's be serious.

I'm not very knowledgeable about such. What did you see in his eyes? I'm just curious. I do know some people who take meds for chronic pain, but I've never noticed anything about their eyes. TIA

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I have to admit I laughed when Zoey was screaming at doctor's office and Will was laughing as Bill was twirling him in the chair. I enjoyed the contrast and did not think Zoey was in any real trouble (maybe Will with the twirling.) I felt much sorrier for her when they picked her up at the orphanage and she was so upset. What I like about Jen and Bill is that they actually research and search for information on what they are doing and if they have problems.

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I think Jen needs to definitely relax a little bit when it comes to the party planning. I get that she wanted to do something big and special for Zoe's first birthday with the family, but she kind of took the fun out of it for everyone else. It's a celebration for a little girl's birthday, not a State Dinner at the White House. I think she has a hard time switching off her "work personality" and turning on her "home personality."

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I get that she wanted to do something big and special for Zoe's first birthday with the family, but she kind of took the fun out of it for everyone else.

 

This in a nutshell.  A field producer's dream "whoa get a camera on that 14 page booklet or the viewers will think we are making it up!"   

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This in a nutshell.  A field producer's dream "whoa get a camera on that 14 page booklet or the viewers will think we are making it up!"   

That's just Jen.  Her family laughed it off like they're used to it.  Jen took their ribbing in stride.  Healthy family dynamics.

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I think the "toilet in the garage" was there to lead into "hunks come to help move things in the garage." Since they have a pool, they most likely have a bathroom that you can reach from the pool area. Guests could easily use that. 

 

A party for 75(?) people has a lot of moving parts. There is guest list, cleaning and organizing house and yard, contracting for the petting zoo (plus the fence), food, cake, etc. With food involved, there's a timeline that had to be followed as well. Afterwards, clean-up, etc. I could see someone detail-oriented like Jen would write a lot of this down. 

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I think the "toilet in the garage" was there to lead into "hunks come to help move things in the garage." Since they have a pool, they most likely have a bathroom that you can reach from the pool area. Guests could easily use that. 

 

A party for 75(?) people has a lot of moving parts. There is guest list, cleaning and organizing house and yard, contracting for the petting zoo (plus the fence), food, cake, etc. With food involved, there's a timeline that had to be followed as well. Afterwards, clean-up, etc. I could see someone detail-oriented like Jen would write a lot of this down. 

 

Me too - and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm type A too.  But not to Jen's extent - I only get upset when adults make [avoidable] messes.

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Me too - and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm type A too.  But not to Jen's extent - I only get upset when adults make [avoidable] messes.

I hate when adults make messes too.  I hate it even worse when they leave it there.

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I get why Jen had that handout/packet. Didn't she have almost a 100 guests? I think you should be very organized when you are throwing a party that size and Jen strikes me as the type who would prefer to oversee everything directly rather than trust a planner. Plus, the party was on her property. I'd be very concerned about logistics, too.

 

In general, I do think Jen needs to relax a tad (actually, a lot, lol!) because life is too short, but eh, she is who she is.

Edited by trimthatfat
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Jen said that organizing a closet is as much fun as sitting and having a glass of wine. If she honestly believes that, I think she is crazy.

 

Wow ...

 

I happen to absolutely love organizing drawers ... I get a little giddy when I do it ... does that mean I am crazy?  

 

Well, don't answer that, I know I am.  ::giggle::

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My pickled liver probably wishes I'd spent a little more time organizing anything, but I left all that behind me long ago.  Still, I can appreciate the attention to detail, and if I had a sick newborn there's no one I'd rather have on the case than Dr. Jen.

 

ETA - sitting on my hands "not answering" that, BizBuzz!   :-D

Edited by walnutqueen
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Jen said that organizing a closet is as much fun as sitting and having a glass of wine. If she honestly believes that, I think she is crazy.

I love organizing and my volunteer job is managing my Friends of the Library bookstore. Sorting and loading the donations into the store is like Prozac to me and I joke that its better than therapy. I totally get Jen's lists but I did think her 14 pages would have made even my eyes roll but I would be chuckling at the same time.
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To be fair, they were written on her tablet and printed out. Anyone who has ever written a lot on a tablet knows you can't write A LOT on each page. It isn't like it was 14 page single spaced with 8 pt font we're talking about. 

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i believe a lot of us identify with Jen. That may make a big difference in perceptions. I have huge lists when we're giving a party, and we give quite a few. In all candor, my lists are my own to-dos, but I think the Arnolds and Bill wanted to be on Jen's team for the party. 

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Jen said that organizing a closet is as much fun as sitting and having a glass of wine. If she honestly believes that, I think she is crazy.

I know it seems strange but I'm the same way. In fact, I improved a closet last night. My life was chaos for 20 years. Organizing is soothing. Wine gives me headaches.

Edited by wrestlesflamingos
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I know it seem strange but I'm the same way. In fact, I improved a closet last night. My life was chaos for 20 years. Organizing is soothing. Wine gives me headaches.

It is soothing.  I just did all my dresser drawers and put in some fresh sachets.  Chaos gives me extreme anxiety, when I'm done organizing I can breath again. Edited by wrestlesflamingos
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Jen said that organizing a closet is as much fun as sitting and having a glass of wine. If she honestly believes that, I think she is crazy.

 

I don't know if this is anything Jen can honestly help.  IMO, it's an inborn personality trait like any other. I've watched many MANY young children, especially Fours and Fives, who love to just sit and organize things [blocks, beads, crayons, buttons]. To make order out of disorder. They are actually having fun and enjoying what they're doing. There's probably some element of control in this behavior, and of course this varies by the individual. But I think it's more or less born into people.  Just as there are others who are perfectly comfortable amid chaos and disorder.  The messy desk [or messy house] types.  People who never feel the need to clean up and organize their environments and are always happy to let someone else run things.  And the world really needs BOTH kinds of people at different times. The sad thing is when the organizers call the chaos-lovers "slobs," and the chaos-lovers call the organizers "control freaks."  Because usually neither is really true.

Edited by NausetGirl
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I am an organizer too mostly because it is a necessary evil.  Preferring it to a glass of wine?  Uh no...lol  

 

Reminds me of that time they were getting Zoey's room ready and they had to clean out the linen closet and when they opened the doors everything had just been haphazardly thrown in there.  It must have driven her crazy to have a closet or garage out of control like they were and not being able to fix it yourself.  That part would drive me crazy!  

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I organize my closets, because it has to be done. I consider it housework. It's the same as doing the dishes, cleaning the bathrooms, or making the beds, etc. I don't find it fun in the least. I do it, but I don't like it.

 

I don't do any of that shit anymore, because I've learned the hard way that it really doesn't need to be done.  I need to feed the cats (and myself), I need to avoid further pain and injury, and I need to not have to take an overdose of painkillers just to have things look clean & tidy.  It's all relative. 

 

Of course, I could look for a Jen type to come live here and fix my life (Oscar & Felix), but I'd probably end up trying to prove justifiable homicide to a jury who just don't see things my way.  And we all know how that goes!   ;-)

 

Seeing Jen & Zoey sitting happily in the pony cart reminded me of my Mum's last visit, when we took a ride on the carousel.  She couldn't climb up on the horses, so I found a lovely princess coach and these two old biddies enjoyed our ride just as much as Jen & Zoey did.  It warmed the cockles of my cold black heart.  :-)

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I'm not really a neat freak, but I was that child who loved to sort and put things into particular spaces. And emptying a space and getting rid of what I don't want and lining things up in boxes is very like retail therapy to me. I do believe that is true of Jen. And that is partly why she was drawn to neonatal pediatrics and now her robot methodology. I'm very glad we have these people. And they often marry laid-back sorts and together parent very nicely. 

Edited by mbutterfly
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