S08.E03: First Week of School

[Honey]

My mom lost 25 lbs. doing water walking at the gym, it's great exercise and easy on the joints.

 

Regarding the car seats, I wouldn't blame them for having a double set, one for each car. Those things are a pain in the ass to keep switching in and out.

Especially for a little person.  Those seats are nearly as big as they are.

[farmgal4]

If Will sees that he's not behaving like the other kids, they'll eventually let him know he's not.

 

Pools get warm enough in the summer in Texas, I can't imagine how hot that little pool must get, and when you need it most. I'm thinking that there are probably therapeutic accessories that go with that pool (like a treadmill) for low-impact exercise for Bill and Jen.

After I had spinal fusion surgery, the PT facility that I used had a pool, and I did most of my physical therapy in the water. Bill may do the same when he has back surgery.

[CousinAmy]

I think it's a judgment call when to give in to a child's tears and when to let them cry it out. I'm not big on forcing a child to do anything - three-year-olds should have some input into what is happening to them. Yes, she has to learn to swim, but maybe she's not quite as bold as her big brother - he's almost two years older and naturally fearless. Why force her when she's so young? After all, she's probably not going to get near enough to the pool to fall in.

The fence around the pool looks quite climb-able. I'd certainly worry more about Will sneaking into the pool than Zoey.

[trimthatfat]

I don't take any issue with Zoe being encouraged to swim with the instructor - she was gently coerced into the pool and spoken to in a very soothing tone. I thought he handled the situation perfectly. Yes, Zoe cried, but she seems a bit whiny in general so I think when it comes to new activities, she should be encouraged to do them even if she's going to do it tearfully. The instructor is clearly very experienced with children and created a safe environment for Zoe. As a result, she did everything the instructor told her to and even gave him a high five afterwards. Zoe did great!

 

A totally shallow point, but the instructor is quite a cutie.

Edited December 23, 2014 by trimthatfat

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

I'd certainly worry more about Will sneaking into the pool than Zoey.

 

Agree, Zoey is a pleaser and is obeying at this stage anyway but Will is another story!  I am sure he would head into the pool on his own if he got the chance. Many pool owners install a second fence that surrounds the immediate pool area so you can walk around the pool but not get near the water.   Our neighbor has one and they leave it up all the time even though their small kids are grown to stop small animals from drowning overnight.  The fence doesn't look great but works.     

 

In spite of all the theatrics, Zoey is obviously learning during her swimming lessons. She appeared to be familiar with each task the instructor asked her to perform. She even put her face in the water. I think he is doing a good job with both kids.

 

It was so funny how she was crying, put her face in the water and held her breath then face comes out of the water and crying resumes without missing a beat. Not unusual and the instructor's experience shows as he is calm and in charge all the time.    

[Chalby]

I am a first time poster, and I have soooo much to say, I have broken this into three posts. I would really like to hear if there’s anyone out there who follows my thinking (and please share areas we differ, or what you would do if your were the Arnolds). I love this show, and I appreciate the Arnolds letting me peer into their home. Like the many of you, I am going to post observations that I would never say to Jen’s and Bill’s face. As I am not in a position to ‘cast the first stone’. Some details about me: My observations come from being a primary teacher for15 years, 7 years as a child/family counsellor,  and being a mother of 4 –  the youngest turns 19 in January! Woo Hoo!!.  Oops, I digress…

 

Potty-training: Daycares will look after children in diapers whereas preschools will not. You can tell Will & Zoey are in diapers by the way their pants fit. (Otnerwise they have some seriously, weird-looking bottoms. They are huge, bumpy and lumpy.  Lord help them if they have major cellulite already! Heh) There’s no reason why, between the three adults, they can’t potty-trained the kids for school. Zoey is 3 and Will’s turning 5. I am assuming that the kids are merely little people, and not hugely,’ mentally delayed’. Little people’s general physical progression is like ours, so they would reach the same development milestones as our kids. They just need an appropriate sized potty. My first-born was the most reluctant when it came to potty-training, and I wasn’t successful until he was 3 years and 3 months. Let me tell you the diapers were disgusting. Fortunately my others weren’t as attached to their diapers. My son was the latest (for potty) of everyone I knew. If there are major problems with Will or Zoey, then the Arnolds are not sharing what’s really going (with regards to the kids' cognitive ability.) And that’s okay, but let’s not keep saying over and over how quick, empathetic, and bright Will is. We viewers can see that, but sometimes I feel like Jen and Bill are trying to convince themselves, rather than us, of Will's progress. I know the kids are outgoing, quick, bright, attentive UNLESS there’s food in the room.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Chalby

[Chalby]

Part Two  

Will’s speech does seem to be improving and I think it’s because the Arnolds were so quick to diagnose the ear problems. As well, Jen is on top of any additional help and therapy for her kids, which highlights Will’s laziness. Will loves to participate in activities IF he controls the situation; dictates who will participate; gets a treat/food for participating; and can lie down or sprawl while interacting. (Will is so clever when it comes to manipulating situations - Jen and Bill are way too soft when they laugh off discipline.)  Will's fabulous and focused for little snippets of learning time, but as soon as Will feels as though there’s effort involved, or he may have to try a little harder, he’ll sprawl across the table top; or on his dad’s back.; or across the floor / couch/ equipment’s that's lying there.

 

The goldfish incident lol … I wish Jen would realize that we like her and Bill a lot!  And we support whatever actions, or discipline she introduces. Right now there isn’t any consistent discipline –  and as soon as a child acts up, Jen and Bill look at each; then shrug and laugh; then the child continues with prior behaviour. The viewers can read their minds Jen looks saying in her mind, "Oh Bill, the camera's here, and you know Will will flip out, grab the bag and run away if I try to take it". Bill responds telepathically, "Yep, and my back's hurting. so let's just let him have the bag". The key to successful discipline is CONSISTENCY..

 

If I were Jen, I would pick my battles ahead of time.  So, I would choose the food ‘battle’ for Will and I would ensure Will knows I am Strictly- By-The-Rules- Mom. No exceptions. Then the kids would realize that demanding, ordering, grabbing, taking, hitting, throwing, screaming, going limp, going stiff etc., will not change the rules that they are not allowed snacks outside of what I prepare for them. I saw Jen hesitate when Will refused to hand over the goldfish bag, and I realized in that moment Jen was actually worried as she cannot physically handle Will. He’s as big as she is, and he is far heavier. Once he jumped into her lap[ and knocked her right over...  add to that her still recovering from cancer –  she is unable to physically stop him. Soon he will realize he can just shove her aside and she’ll collapse like a deck of cards. Before he understands that scenario, it’s imperative that she choose her battles now. And get him on board before she loses all control.

[Honey]

I am impatiently waiting for post #3, since I agree with absolutely everything you've said so far.

[Chalby]

Part Three, sorry gang....

 

Lastly, the other battle I would choose is with regards to Zoey’s screaming. When I heard Zoey, sitting on Jen’s lap while the doctor looked her over, bellowing that ear-splitting, I'm-Back-in-India caterwaul, I swear my toes curled up! Zoey is not in any kind of pain, nor distress, so there's no need for that behaviour. AARGH, And once again, there's Jen reinforcing that ridiculous screaming by talking nonstop throughout the wailing. Jen's cooing, “Yes, I know honey. Yes, Zoey, I’m sorry, Zoey. I know this is new, Zoey. Oh, you don’t like doctors, do you, Zoey? Oh, we're almost done, sweetie. Good girl.That's right. You're such a good girl." Ahem, sorry Jen, but she's not behaving like a good girl, at all - be it at swimming or at the doctor's. Needles, etc. I understand a child's hysteria, but the Dr. did nothing that was invasive. The screaming was unnecessary, and Zoey is clever enough to recognize it makes her parents very uncomfortable, to the point that they rush to end the situation or session.

 

Jen needs to firmly, and quietly, direct Zoey. IE: “That’s enough, Zoey. Stop screaming, and use your indoor voice and words.” THEN Jen needs to be QUIET. She must NOT utter a single word to Zoey until Zoey starts interacting properly. The same goes for pool behaviour. There was no need for Zoey to scream like that. Children's behave inappropriately because it meets a need. They will continue the negative behaviour until their need is met. When Zoey is faced with something new, she knows if she screams like a banshee, she will be rocked, fed, cuddled, coddled, and cooed to. Oh and I have seen her go limp if she doesn't want to go somewhere, and I've noticed that Jen is unable to physically manage her. This is when the Bill and Jen need to identify the negative behaviour and withdraw all of their verbal and physical attention. No words, no cuddling, no monologues.  Any and all interactions should stop as soon as Zoey goes limp or collapses, or begins to scream. All adults near her need to withdraw completely from Zoey.  This will annoy her into screaming even louder, but as soon as she is heard calmly speaking, or expressing an observation, or need, then quickly Coddle, Cuddle, and Coo, to reinforce her appropriate communication and behaviour. Above all else, remember, to NEVER talk, interact, or do a monologue during Will's or Zoey's acting out/ tantrum. As well, the adults both need to QUIT TALKING to the kids and to each other. I predict within several days of using consistent discipline, and focusing only on a couple of 'battles', Will and Zoey will understand and abide by the household boundaries and expectations,.

 

Thanks to The LIttle Couple - I love reading this Forum. An aside - Does anyone else notice that Jen has an annoying nervous tic? She laughs after everything - even if she's trying to discipline. And she has another verbal tic where she mades her conversation sound like she requesting approval or consensus. "Do you need a time out, Will?" "Are you going to give me that bag?" LOL, I am so glad I am not on television. I would be ripped to shreds. Anyhow, Jen needs to remember not to ask kids permission to consequence them.Ha Ha :)

Edited December 25, 2014 by Chalby

[Honey]

The only time I can recall Jen disciplining either child was when they first got Will, and they were painting.  Will attempted to hit Jen, and she put him in time out.  But still she sat next to him, talking to him, until time out was over.  That isn't how time out is done.  The child should be completely ignored until it's over.

 

Will is at a very critical age for discipline, in fact, it's actually a bit late.  He should be corrected each and every time he acts out, no matter if it's the first day of school or not.  And it should be both parents working together, using the same rules and punishments.  IMO

[Foghorn Leghorn]

WELCOME Chalby!!  Agree with every single word!!   

[RedheadZombie]

I agree with you about the discipline being needed right now.  In the not so distant future, he's going to be bigger than they are.  Where will they be then if he doesn't respect them, and obey them?

 

I fall in the middle of most of the opinions I'm reading here.  I do see a bit of a problem.  It wasn't just Will taking the food and then eating it when he wasn't supposed to.  It was my toy that the instructor couldn't touch, and my pool that Bill better not attempt to enter.  And every other "no", "my", and "mine".  It reminds me of how anxious he got when other children got near his toy on the playground.  He came running and screaming and his parents laughed it off.  I understand a lot of this might have been spurred on by going from an only child, to having a younger sibling who may attempt to play with your things. 

 

I think we also need to consider that their size may be part of it.  During most toddler/pre-school temper tantrums, the parent can calmly lift up the child and remove them from the situation, or place them in time out.  Bill and Jen need the children to be cooperative, and most kids are not cooperative in their own discipline.  So it can become a vicious cycle.  And if the cameras are part of the problem, the kids are more than smart enough to quickly learn they can get away with a lot if the cameras are there.

 

When Bill pulled the stool out of the box, I thought, "wow that looks like one of the Roloff stools.   Turns out it was.   Small world. 

 

I thought of Matt, too.  Also his stories of having to brush his teeth at the bathtub and pull the bedspread down on the floor to sleep, prior to providing these kits to hotels.

 

Goldfish-gate:  We don't know if production called Will over and gave him those goldfish.

 

I would like to think that Jen and Bill do not allow this type of manipulation.  It's a set up for a temper tantrum, and I can't imagine they are fine with that.  And what a shitty thing for an adult to do, if true.  Giving food to a food obsessed kid, only to watch his mom trying to wrestle it away - inexcusable.  And if it happened, that producer should be promptly fired.

[mtnrunner]

Lastly, the other battle I would choose is with regards to Zoey’s screaming. When I heard Zoey, sitting on Jen’s lap while the doctor looked her over, bellowing that ear-splitting, I'm-Back-in-India caterwaul, I swear my toes curled up! Zoey is not in any kind of pain, nor distress, so there's no need for that behaviour. AARGH, And once again, there's Jen reinforcing that ridiculous screaming by talking nonstop throughout the wailing. Jen's cooing, “Yes, I know honey. Yes, Zoey, I’m sorry, Zoey. I know this is new, Zoey. Oh, you don’t like doctors, do you, Zoey? Oh, we're almost done, sweetie. Good girl.That's right. You're such a good girl." Ahem, sorry Jen, but she's not behaving like a good girl, at all - be it at swimming or at the doctor's. Needles, etc. I understand a child's hysteria, but the Dr. did nothing that was invasive. The screaming was unnecessary, and Zoey is clever enough to recognize it makes her parents very uncomfortable, to the point that they rush to end the situation or session.

 

I don't think Zoey's behavior was outside the norm.  She's a child that doesn't like new things and she's probably scared.  In that moment when she's screaming and scared Jen has talked to her with a calm voice reinforcing that things will be o.k.  If Jen took Zoey out of the situation then she's reinforcing that if Zoey pitches a fit she'll get her way.  I haven't seen any instance that Zoey's screaming has shortened any experience that had to happen. Instead Jen is making Zoey confront the scary stuff and try to reassure her during the situation.  As a mom with 4 kids the only thing I know that "might" help at all is role play with Zoey about whatever situation she is going to experience to try to make it less scary.  When my kids got into that state when they were that age they are already so worked up that there wasn't a whole lot I could do and telling them they were being naughty would only add to the hysterics.

I agree. Zoey is 3 years old. It is time for Bill and Jen to stop reinforcing this behavior. Zoey throws a fit every time she doesn't want to do something. Bill and Jen chuckle when she does it, thus encouraging her.

I guess I see it more as ignoring her behavior and going "Zoey will be Zoey". 

[ZoloftBlob]

Re: Matt Roloff's stools and tales of horror in hotels.

Yes, I firmly believe hotels should have some minimal assistance available for people of short stature. That said, I don't believe for one minute that Matt Roloff slept on a floor in a hotel room because the hotel had nothing available and refused to provide any accomadation. Sorry, I just don't believe *Matt Roloff* shut his mouth and didn't cry to the skies how Hotel Chain X made a person with a disability *sleep on the floor* because they didn't want to provide a stool. Seriously- Matt has no problem public ally throwing down and has yet to name the hotel chains where he was refused accomadation to where he brushed his teeth in the tub and slept on the floor. Keep in mind he is a man who likes to exaggerate.

On topic, I bet he was pissed that the stools weren't prominently described as coming from his company.

[RedheadZombie]

I think it's a judgment call when to give in to a child's tears and when to let them cry it out. I'm not big on forcing a child to do anything - three-year-olds should have some input into what is happening to them. Yes, she has to learn to swim, but maybe she's not quite as bold as her big brother - he's almost two years older and naturally fearless. Why force her when she's so young? After all, she's probably not going to get near enough to the pool to fall in.

 

Children aged 1-4 are the most common drowning victims.  My impression from the swimming scene, is this is how Jen and Bill have learned to operate with Zoey.  The same thing happened at the doctor's visit in the following episode.  The doctor seemed willing to go slow and attempt to coax Zoey, but Jen told him to just "power through it".  That told me that you don't coax Zoey.  And this is not the beginning of her swim lessons.  It's possible that the instructor tried coaxing her and realized it was ineffective.   The fact that Jen and Bill had no apparent issue with his "highhanded" technique, implies that they are onboard and believe that this works best with Zoey.  I don't believe they would step back and allow someone to terrorize her.  Zoey seems the type who doesn't like something until she likes it. 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Will and Zoey are in charge!  

 

 

ok everything is double posting!!

Edited December 24, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn

[CousinAmy]

Children aged 1-4 are the most common drowning victims.  My impression from the swimming scene, is this is how Jen and Bill have learned to operate with Zoey.  The same thing happened at the doctor's visit in the following episode.  The doctor seemed willing to go slow and attempt to coax Zoey, but Jen told him to just "power through it".  That told me that you don't coax Zoey.  And this is not the beginning of her swim lessons.  It's possible that the instructor tried coaxing her and realized it was ineffective.   The fact that Jen and Bill had no apparent issue with his "highhanded" technique, implies that they are onboard and believe that this works best with Zoey.  I don't believe they would step back and allow someone to terrorize her.  Zoey seems the type who doesn't like something until she likes it. 

Yes, I saw last night's episode. I see a difference, though, with being picked up and forced into water, and being safe in Mom's arms in a doctor's office. She wasn't in danger in the doctor's office, and the worst that could happen was being made uncomfortable. But imagine if you're a small child and you are taken into a terrifying environment - and no one is acknowledging your fears. I don't see that that's the best way to teach someone to swim. It's the best way to teach you that if you protest something, someone will just pick you up and deposit you where they want to. Zoey should be able to trust that her feelings will be taken into account. 

[ZoloftBlob]

I must admit, while I understand the theory behind the "Zoey must be allowed to control the situation and never be forced into anything and must always be acknowledged and reasoned with" mindset..... I also see where reasoning and consulting the three year old on every decision and ceding every decision to the three year old is ridiculous. Yes, she's unhappy in swim lessons. So what? Not to anti child or anything, but every moment of my childhood was not "whatever you wish dear, you're the decision maker, and your whims are the only important thing! Don't want to learn to swim despite how we paid for lessons? Well, bless you and don't cry, you do exactly as you please because you're a child and you know exactly what's best"

Seriously, you know what? For all the caterwaling that occurs in this thread about one of the kids going running, I notice no one ever says "if zoey and will want to run, and are stopped, how monstrous bill and Jen are to force their children to walk and to terrify them by stopping them from having their way". I really don't see the difference- if it upsets the children to be made to mind, then how awful it is that they aren't allowed their way. Heaven forbid a three year old be forced into a completely safe controlled swim situation, she cried and therefore she should have been cuddled, cosseted, apologized to, and asked what her pleasure was because she's three and she's the decision maker.

Seriously, who the hell would ever want children? Proper child care currently is kissing your child's ass and being a slave to the child, and if you force your child into doing anything, you're a monster parent for not consulting your three year old first before taking it for swim lessons.

[Fostersmom]

And it's not like it was Zoey's first swim lesson and she had no idea what was going on. She might not have been thrilled, but she knew the drill. Zoey has swimming lessons and it's a traumatic event she's been scarred for life, but when she cries at the doctor, she should have been told to shut it. Seriously, Jen and Bill just can't win. 

[Bamamom]

I agree!! Im from the south where kids are taught to say please, thank you, yes sir, no sir & vise versa. I don't agree with asking a toddler if they are ok with every situation & waiting on approval before moving on. That's exactly why there are so many spoiled children today. If Bill doesn't stop trying to be Will's friend so much & become the dad Im afraid for Jen in the future. They are both great parents but as all parents we learn as we go esp with the oldest kid. With them they are having to learn as they go with both kids.

[Honey]

Yes, I saw last night's episode. I see a difference, though, with being picked up and forced into water, and being safe in Mom's arms in a doctor's office. She wasn't in danger in the doctor's office, and the worst that could happen was being made uncomfortable. But imagine if you're a small child and you are taken into a terrifying environment - and no one is acknowledging your fears. I don't see that that's the best way to teach someone to swim. It's the best way to teach you that if you protest something, someone will just pick you up and deposit you where they want to. Zoey should be able to trust that her feelings will be taken into account. 

But that wasn't her first lesson, and Jen said that other times she enjoys it.  She wasn't in any danger in the pool.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Honey

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I notice no one ever says "if zoey and will want to run, and are stopped, how monstrous bill and Jen are to force their children to walk and to terrify them by stopping them from having their way".

 

I think that is because it hasn't happened so there has been no post about it that I recall....

 

 

Zoey has swimming lessons and it's a traumatic event she's been scarred for life, but when she cries at the doctor, she should have been told to shut it. Seriously, Jen and Bill just can't win.

 

 

I am pretty sure Jen and Bill can't win if there are two sides to a viewpoint and posters pick one or the other.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn
deleted 2nd quote box

[ZoloftBlob]

I'm sorry, foghorn, has there not been endless discussion how dangerous it is that Jen and Bill can't catch their children if they run and therefore Will and Zoey are in constant imminent danger if they are alone with their parents?

My point? If zoey and Will are the decision makers, why is there any debate? They're old enough to decide if they want to run or not, and as a three year old and non verbal five year old, can clearly make those decisions. I mean, if they have to be consulted on everything.....and if only their decisions matter, lest they be permanently damaged, then if zoey or Will chose to run, why do Jen and Bill even need to question it?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I'm sorry, foghorn, has there not been endless discussion how dangerous it is that Jen and Bill can't catch their children if they run and therefore Will and Zoey are in constant imminent danger if they are alone with their parents?

My point? If zoey and Will are the decision makers, why is there any debate? They're old enough to decide if they want to run or not, and as a three year old and non verbal five year old, can clearly make those decisions. I mean, if they have to be consulted on everything.....and if only their decisions matter, lest they be permanently damaged, then if zoey or Will chose to run, why do Jen and Bill even need to question it?

 

Of course it is dangerous if the kids bolt and Jen and Bill can't run them down safely.  I was referring to something I had not read.  "how monstrous bill and Jen are to force their children to walk and to terrify them by stopping them from having their way".

 

Their physical running and their command (running) of Bill and Jen have two separate definitions.  I apologize if they got confused.  

 

Merry Christmas to all!

Edited December 25, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn

[NausetGirl]

The only time I can recall Jen disciplining either child was when they first got Will, and they were painting.  Will attempted to hit Jen, and she put him in time out.  But still she sat next to him, talking to him, until time out was over.  That isn't how time out is done.  The child should be completely ignored until it's over.

 

Will is at a very critical age for discipline, in fact, it's actually a bit late.  He should be corrected each and every time he acts out, no matter if it's the first day of school or not.  And it should be both parents working together, using the same rules and punishments.  IMO

 

Completely agree - especially about Bill stepping up to discipline as well. We may have found Bill's Achilles heel. He's terrific in so many ways - but so far, discipline is not one of them. The time for making excuses and withholding discipline is over.  It's been almost two years - how much longer are you planning to wait?

Edited December 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[Chalby]

"I ... would be embarrassed to see a post of mine that required 3 "page down" clicks to ignore."

 

Walnutqueen, when I read this in your post, I totally agreed. But then I HAD to go ahead and finally post, and sure enough, it took 3 pages ; ). So I guess I can't shut up either. I am so appreciative of the posters for this forum, not only does everyone write impressive posts/opinions, but they have also been more than kind to me. Merry Christmas, everyone!

[Chalby]

Thank you Honey and Fostersmom for pointing out that this wasn't Zoey's first swimming lesson. I also think that because she was aware when the instructor would say 'blow bubbles", etc., and she knew exactly what he expected. Plus, she could be quiet while doing that, only to start wailing again. Another time, I noticed Jen said to (her father?) oh she's going to scream about that, before Zoey even did an activity. So she has already, openly, identified Zoey as a screamer. And with regards to the doctor - someone mentioned to try role playing to help Zoey. Well, she role played every day while Jen had cancer so she must have been used to being around a doctor. I guess I just don't understand the screaming. There's no need for it and she should learn to use her words.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Chalby

[gunderda]

Did I just read that if your toddler child is upset and crying at the doctors office that you're essentially suppose to tell them to shut up and deal with it.....?

[mbutterfly]

Did I just read that if your toddler child is upset and crying at the doctors office that you're essentially suppose to tell them to shut up and deal with it.....?

I don't really see the point even if I thought it was a good idea. And I don't. As long as the doctor is able to complete the examination and/or treatment, it's good. Pediatricians know it goes with the territory. 

[NausetGirl]

Part Three, sorry gang....

 

Lastly, the other battle I would choose is with regards to Zoey’s screaming. When I heard Zoey, sitting on Jen’s lap while the doctor looked her over, bellowing that ear-splitting, I'm-Back-in-India caterwaul, I swear my toes curled up! Zoey is not in any kind of pain, nor distress, so there's no need for that behaviour. AARGH, And once again, there's Jen reinforcing that ridiculous screaming by talking nonstop throughout the wailing. Jen's cooing, “Yes, I know honey. Yes, Zoey, I’m sorry, Zoey. I know this is new, Zoey. Oh, you don’t like doctors, do you, Zoey? Oh, we're almost done, sweetie. Good girl.That's right. You're such a good girl." Ahem, sorry Jen, but she's not behaving like a good girl, at all - be it at swimming or at the doctor's. Needles, etc. I understand a child's hysteria, but the Dr. did nothing that was invasive. The screaming was unnecessary, and Zoey is clever enough to recognize it makes her parents very uncomfortable, to the point that they rush to end the situation or session.

 

Jen needs to firmly, and quietly, direct Zoey. IE: “That’s enough, Zoey. Stop screaming, and use your indoor voice and words.” THEN Jen needs to be QUIET. She must NOT utter a single word to Zoey until Zoey starts interacting properly. The same goes for pool behaviour. There was no need for Zoey to scream like that. Children's behave inappropriately because it meets a need. They will continue the negative behaviour until their need is met. When Zoey is faced with something new, she knows if she screams like a banshee, she will be rocked, fed, cuddled, coddled, and cooed to. Oh and I have seen her go limp if she doesn't want to go somewhere, and I've noticed that Jen is unable to physically manage her. This is when the Bill and Jen need to identify the negative behaviour and withdraw all of their verbal and physical attention. No words, no cuddling, no monologues.  Any and all interactions should stop as soon as Zoey goes limp or collapses, or begins to scream. All adults near her need to withdraw completely from Zoey.  This will annoy her into screaming even louder, but as soon as she is heard calmly speaking, or expressing an observation, or need, then quickly Coddle, Cuddle, and Coo, to reinforce her appropriate communication and behaviour. Above all else, remember, to NEVER talk, interact, or do a monologue during Will's or Zoey's acting out/ tantrum. As well, the adults both need to QUIT TALKING to the kids and to each other. I predict within several days of using consistent discipline, and focusing only on a couple of 'battles', Will and Zoey will understand and abide by the household boundaries and expectations,.

 

Thanks to The LIttle Couple - I love reading this Forum. An aside - Does anyone else notice that Jen has an annoying nervous tic? She laughs after everything - even if she's trying to discipline. And she has another verbal tic where she mades her conversation sound like she requesting approval or consensus. "Do you need a time out, Will?" "Are you going to give me that bag?" LOL, I am so glad I am not on television. I would be ripped to shreds. Anyhow, Jen needs to remember not to ask kids permission to consequence them.Ha Ha :)

 

Welcome, Chalby, and excellent observations!  I completely agree and won't regurgitate any of my own comments here.  A couple of new issues you do bring up though:

 

I also suspect that Bill and Jen are trying to convince themselves that things are better than they really are at present.  Everyone who adopts children knows there are usually issues to face when the children come home.  And these issues often require a lot of time and sometimes also professional assistance to be properly handled.  I'm sure Bill and Jen were aware of what they were "getting themselves in for..." when they picked up Will in China.  But his evaluations here in the States have revealed issues they did not anticipate, and although I don't think either is discouraged, I do think they're realizing that hill they need to climb is a bit higher than originally estimated.

 

Jen does need, quite frankly, to stifle herself with the kids more often.  I'm sure it's just her nature to talk through things.  In addition, she's an educator as well as a physician, so she's accustomed to explaining things to people all day long.  But in this case, it's neither smart nor appropriate.  I like the way I hear her speaking to the kids.  She's very calm and matter-of-fact and doesn't speak down to them, or in a patronizing way.  No baby talk, no sing-songy cadence to her voice.  But she's saying a lot to them - and the kids just aren't able to fully comprehend it all yet.  Your suggestions of what to say were excellent, IMO.

 

Bill needs to speak up more, both in backing up Jen's discipline and asserting some as his own, especially with regard to Will.  It's clear he's finding fatherhood very enjoyable and lots of fun.  But he is Will's dad, not his best friend, and he's responsible in large part for how he turns out.  Most people look back on the teachers they've had and recognize that the ones they learned the most from were the ones who were the toughest overall, who made them do the most work. It's rare to find someone who can say, "Oh yes, I learned so much from X, and we hardly had to do a thing in his class..."  Well IMO, same thing with parents.  The easy ones don't end up teaching their kids much of anything.

Edited December 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[CousinAmy]

I was thinking about Jen's rapid fire speech, especially during the beach visit. I don't know if she would have spoken so much if she wasn't filming, since neither child talks very much on their own you'd end up with a lot of dead air. So she's doing it more as a form of entertainment to the audience, just as some of the manufactured moments on the show are for entertainment purposes.

But I've heard Moms talk rapidly, talk slowly, speak hesitantly, it doesn't mean that any of these ways are wrong. I think the fact that neither parent speaks with any authority to the children is more troubling than the pace of their speech.

[NausetGirl]

I was thinking about Jen's rapid fire speech, especially during the beach visit. I don't know if she would have spoken so much if she wasn't filming, since neither child talks very much on their own you'd end up with a lot of dead air. So she's doing it more as a form of entertainment to the audience, just as some of the manufactured moments on the show are for entertainment purposes.

But I've heard Moms talk rapidly, talk slowly, speak hesitantly, it doesn't mean that any of these ways are wrong. I think the fact that neither parent speaks with any authority to the children is more troubling than the pace of their speech.

 

Definitely agree that Jen's on-air "blather" is probably due both to nervousness and to fill all the quiet time that would result otherwise.  But when disciplining either child I agree with chalby - Jen should state what she wants and what will result if the child doesn't comply - and then stop talking.

Edited December 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I don't think that Zoey screamed because she was afraid in either the pool or the doctor's visit instances. I think both times she screamed because it was something she didn't want to do. I think she tries to use screaming as a means to get her own way. Bill and Jen seem to think it's cute and funny. I say this because they chuckle when she does it. They are the parents. If they think it's ok, that's their call. I personally, would put a stop to it.

ETA: Bill seems to think all of his children's bad behavior is funny and cute.

 

Yes her crying at any "event" has become the norm and they reinforce it by laughing.  Maybe a visible healthy food reward or a favorite small toy distraction would help to encourage better behavior and where is her cuddly elephant when you need comfort!?  I think Jen's non soothing constant chattering in her ears only reinforces "this is not good Zoe, tense up and let's get this over with."       

 

I would do my best to try to stop it for one reason and one reason only...... she sounds like a screaming banshee!

Edited December 26, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn

[CousinAmy]

Also about the food - it seems the "editors" find Will's constant snacking absolutely adorable. They really seem to focus on it. Not meals, which are fine, but candy and empty calories like Goldfish. Are Jen and Bill aware of this, and can this be laid at the blame of production? Or do they encourage it themselves?

I'll admit I have a lot of food issues myself, since my Mom not only had an eating disorder (laxative adduction) and obsession with her weight, she also was a health food faddist on top of it. My brother and I were raised on whole wheat bread and saccharin. On top of that, we were kosher. I really struggle to eat healthily which is why Will's snacking is so worrisome to me.

[NausetGirl]

Also about the food - it seems the "editors" find Will's constant snacking absolutely adorable. They really seem to focus on it. Not meals, which are fine, but candy and empty calories like Goldfish. Are Jen and Bill aware of this, and can this be laid at the blame of production? Or do they encourage it themselves?

I'll admit I have a lot of food issues myself, since my Mom not only had an eating disorder (laxative adduction) and obsession with her weight, she also was a health food faddist on top of it. My brother and I were raised on whole wheat bread and saccharin. On top of that, we were kosher. I really struggle to eat healthily which is why Will's snacking is so worrisome to me.

 

Yes, I also suspect that the editing might have a lot to do with all the snacking/eating we see.  I do think Will is a "passionate" eater - and with his background this is completely understandable - but we also have to remember we only see what they decide to show us.

Edited December 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[joanne3482]

I personally, would put a stop to it.

 

How? I'm genuinely asking. How do you stop a child who is screaming about something she doesn't want to do? She's in the pool, screaming about having to be in the pool, how do you make her stop screaming about it. She's at the doctor's office being checked out, how do you make her stop screaming? It seems like taking her for a time out will give her what she wants in a round about way, she is no longer in the situation she's unhappy in. Smacking her is not an option. With my nephew, where able to, we always ignored these kind of tantrums because there was no real way to stop it without giving him what he was screaming about. If we were in public, he would sort of win because he would get taken out of that situation because annoying a restaurant full of people trumps teaching a lesson, but when he did swimming lessons he could scream until he was blue in the face (which he did) and he didn't get to get out until he was calm. And even when we took him out of a place like a restaurant, he only got to go as far as the car and his car seat until he stopped screaming. 

[CPP83]

How? I'm genuinely asking. How do you stop a child who is screaming about something she doesn't want to do? She's in the pool, screaming about having to be in the pool, how do you make her stop screaming about it. She's at the doctor's office being checked out, how do you make her stop screaming? It seems like taking her for a time out will give her what she wants in a round about way, she is no longer in the situation she's unhappy in. Smacking her is not an option. With my nephew, where able to, we always ignored these kind of tantrums because there was no real way to stop it without giving him what he was screaming about. 

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more. Zoey isn't wailing because she's had her favourite doll taken away, or she wants a cookie or she's going outside when she wants to stay indoor. In those instances Bill and Jen could compromise, they can try and distract her or even punish her.

 

However when she's in situations where the only way to get her to stop would be to remove her from them completely they just can't do that, imo, it would only imply to her that if she screams loudly enough Mommy and Daddy will do whatever she wants and then it really will become a pattern with her.

 

Right now they're doing their best to show her that the yelling and screaming isn't going to stop them from doing what's best for her, what else is there that they can do? They certainly can't put a muzzle on her.

 

She needs swimming lessons, they are a great benefit for her to have and the sooner they get her used to the water and following instructions the better. Soon she will learn that her tantrums and crying fits won't get her out of the lessons and she can start to focus on other things, like eventually realizing how much fun she can have.

 

And of course she needs to be seen by the doctors, there's absolutely no way around that and if she screams and hollers it's best that Jen and Bill ignore her and treat her like she's having a fit over nothing, which she is, so she realizes that it just won't do her any good to carry on so. She will have to sit and be held while they poke and prod or be placed on a table while they look her over. Once she get used to the routine and realizes there is truly no escape I expect her behaviour in the doctor's office to change as well.

 

I also think Jen and Bill are being careful with Zoey as well, as they should be, because she could also be genuinely afraid at times, so it's good that they try and talk to her during those moments and calm hoer and comfort her as well, because she's still quite little and a lot of things will still scare her even if she has been around them before.

Edited December 26, 2014 by CPP83

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I think Zoey's goal is to gain attention and it works.  The minute she starts wailing she gets picked up and comforted and one or more people are telling her it's ok and are all looking at her with smiles and often a bit of laughter.  In the case of swimming she was not picked up but Jen came back and stayed and talked to her.  Me thinks she is one smart cookie!

 

In Zoey's case I think in the Indian orphanage crying got her picked up again and again and she hasn't unlearned that behavior.  

 

On a funny note I remember when Zoey bit her!    

[NausetGirl]

I would not laugh when she screamed. I would not tell America that it was appropriate behavior for her age. Instead of asking her if she was going to cry, I would tell her that I didn't want her to cry. I wouldn't say in front of her, "she's going to cry" as though it's a foregone conclusion and I didn't expect better behavior from her.

It is their job to teach their children how to act. I personally don't think it's funny when they roll their eyes as if to say "oh well, what can you do". Sometimes it appears that Bill and Jen don't understand that teaching their children proper behavior is a very serious part of their responsibility as parents.

 

Yes, the amused chuckling and laughing and shrugging-of-shoulders is the first thing that needs to stop.  And the easiest to do.  And with Bill, I get the feeling that he doesn't step in and discipline Will because he's afraid he'll stop being as cute and amusing if he does. Just my opinion, but if it's true, it's quite selfish on his part.

[CPP83]

The minute she starts wailing she gets picked up and comforted and one or more people are telling her it's ok and are all looking at her with smiles and often a bit of laughter

 

 

 

Who wouldn't do that with any small child who is upset and crying? If they didn't pick her up and try and comfort her, especially if they know she's afraid, I'd think something is terrible wrong with them, not her.

 

Zoey has shown fear when she cries also, that can't just get push aside because she might also be crying for attention or whatever else. She's three, she isn't some grand mastermind of how to manipulate other people with her emotions, imho.

 

 

 

I would not tell America that it was appropriate behavior for her age

 

 

It's not appropriate, or perhaps should I say fairly common, behaviour for a little girl of three to cry when she's upset or scared?  

 

 

 

Yes, the amused chuckling and laughing and shrugging-of-shoulders is the first thing that needs to stop

 

 

 

 

Trying to defuse a tense and emotional situation with humour is not a bad tactic to try if you're attempting to get a child to calm down and see there is nothing to fear.

 

They aren't laughing off Zoey whacking the doctor with his own stethoscope if he gets too close, she's in their arms, a safe place, and they're trying to show her it's no big deal to get a tap on the knee or a slight poke in the arm.

 

If she sees them laughing and smiling while encouraging and comforting her I think that's pretty much the best way to handle her.

 

There's nothing wrong with being firm with your children sometimes but to me there shouldn't be a "one size fits all" approach to parenting, some situations just don't warrant a firm approach, especially if the parents know what works best with and for their children.

Edited December 26, 2014 by CPP83

[NausetGirl]

Who wouldn't do that with any small child who is upset and crying? If they didn't pick her up and try and comfort her, especially if they know she's afraid, I'd think something is terrible wrong with them, not her.

 

Zoey has shown fear when she cries also, that can't just get push aside because she might also be crying for attention or whatever else. She's three, she isn't some grand mastermind of how to manipulate other people with her emotions, imho.

 

It's not appropriate, or perhaps should I say fairly common, behaviour for a little girl of three to cry when she's upset or scared?  

 

Zoey is certainly crying - at times - because she is genuinely afraid of whatever situation she finds herself in. But yes, a three-year old is perfectly capable of manipulating adults with tears, screaming, going limp, refusing to move etc etc.  Especially a child that seems as bright as Zoey does.  It is up to Bill and Jen to pay attention enough to figure out whether she has a legitimate reason to be afraid in a given situation.  If not, she's manipulating them.  It's that simple...

Edited December 26, 2014 by NausetGirl

[CPP83]

Zoey is certainly crying - at times - because she is genuinely afraid of whatever situation she finds herself in. But yes, a three-year old is perfectly capable of manipulating adults with tears, screaming, going limp, refusing to move etc etc.  Especially a child that seems as bright as Zoey does.  It is up to Bill and Jen to pay attention enough to figure out whether she has a legitimate reason to be afraid in a given situation.  If not, she's manipulating them.  It's that simple...

 

 

Personally I just don't find anything dealing with children and their emotions "simple", period.

 

Imo no child of three, regardless of how bright or ntelligent, can have a true grasp and understanding of what the word "manipulation" even means.

 

Zoey is communicating with her parents, it isn't in the most positive form but it is still a form of communication. Only when Bill and Jen have established a clear response to her that she can get her way because of all the crying, screaming, etc, would she even know that it's possible to "get her way" because of it and then begin to use acting out to her advantage.

 

And so far, at least as we've seen happen on the show, the opposite has proven true.

 

She wailed all through the adoption process with them, she made it clear she wanted nothing to do with them, to let her go, put her down, go away, that didn't happen. We saw her placed on (Grandpa) Santa's lap and she began screaming like a murder victim and yet again they didn't remove her straight away. Now we've seen her in the pool setting and going to the doctor, again more screaming and crying and Jen and Bill handle it but they don't do what she wants, which would be to remove her from the situation.

 

But I'll agree to disagree about the subject, it happened months ago anyway, heh, she's surely recovered by now.

 

 

 

And if their child is afraid, the appropriate response is not laughing.

 

 

Every time Zoey has gone through one of her "fits" she's come out the the side no worse for wear. She doesn't even seem to hold a grudge so I can see why Jen and Bill feel that they do the best they can to just ride it out with her with as little drama involved as possible.

 

If she's afraid hopefully she sees there is nothing to fear because Mommy and Daddy are smiling and laughing and trying to be upbeat, if she is just upset because she doesn't like where she is or the time being or what's being done to her if they stay positive and try and keep a positive atmosphere around her it certainly can't hurt.

 

It is said that laughter is the best medicine but that's just my take. YMMV. 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

Imo no child of three, regardless of how bright or ntelligent, can have a true grasp and understanding of what the word "manipulation" even means.

 

Hey my dog doesn't understand the word or meaning of "manipulation" either but damn if she doesn't get that cookie when she wants it!  LOL  

 

I sometimes think we have to consider what "voice" we are speaking from when we watch the show....are we speaking as if that was our child or as if that was our grandchild.  

Edited December 26, 2014 by Foghorn Leghorn

[wrestlesflamingos]

I sometimes think we have to consider what "voice" we are speaking from when we watch the show....are we speaking as if that was our child or as if that was our grandchild.

I think this is a powerful point. If someone is talking about how they would raise their child, and what they would permit for them, it gets very personal and very hard to compromise. They are countless ways to raise a child but each family is usually very rooted in it's own family culture.

When talking about someone else's kid, eh, the paper plates are fine.

[NausetGirl]

 

Imo no child of three, regardless of how bright or ntelligent, can have a true grasp and understanding of what the word "manipulation" even means.

 

Obviously it's very unlikely that any child of three would be able to define the word "manipulation." But a child doesn't have to define the word to be capable of doing it.  After 30+ years of working with young children, I assure you that it is completely possible for young children to try and get things they want, rather than what a parent or teacher might want. And to do that, they will resort to whatever means they tried in the past that worked for them.  They don't realize, of course, that they are manipulating the adults. They just know that "I want A - and if I do B, I will get A..."  But they are manipulating them just the same.

Edited December 27, 2014 by NausetGirl

[CPP83]

Obviously it's very unlikely that any child of three would be able to define the word "manipulation." But a child doesn't have to define the word to be capable of doing it.  After 30+ years of working with young children, I assure you that it is completely possible for young children to try and get things they want, rather than what a parent or teacher might want. And to do that, they will resort to whatever means they tried in the past that worked for them.  They don't realize, of course, that they are manipulating the adults. They just know that "I want A - and if I do B, I will get A..."  But they are manipulating them just the same.

 

 

 

  I've spent over 50 years raising kids from all ages, from all walks of life, boys and girls, so I'm well aware of what young children, or children in general, are capable of.

 

I have more than faced my share of children attempting to get what they want by any  means necessary. However Zoey isn't using behaviour that we've seen work to her advantage as you've so mentioned. That was my point, she is not forcing Bill and Jen to react to her, if anything she reacts to them. Which is why I think she so easily calms down after the "trauma" and it's as if it never happened. It's as if when she's done she's done and it's forgotten about.

 

Her crying is often ignored, it isn't getting her what she wants yet still she cries and screams, which imo is a sign that it's more about her inability to yet really communicate with her words and she just reverts to crying and screaming to say how much she doesn't like something.

 

She is a bit delayed in her speech which I personally think is a big part of why she cries more like a baby when she's upset, it's just an area she hasn't matured as much in yet. And frankly I think it's something she will soon grow out of, as I've seen countless children do before.

Edited December 27, 2014 by CPP83

[ZoloftBlob]

Agreed, Nausetgirl. Kids don't have to understand "this is my manipulation technique" to know how to manipulate. All kids do it. That's why kids cry and fuss- they know how to get what they want. That's why, in my opinion at least, it's not best to indulge a young child's whims when crying. Zoey doesn't like swimming now, but odds are she'll change her mind and she's not going to die. Likewise Will doesn't like going to school, but it isn't going away and he's going to "need to suck it up, buttercup" as some posters here like to say, because he's a child, and Zoey is a child, and they both will be learning the same lesson we all learn eventually, namely that screaming and whining doesn't always work.

[BizBuzz]

I am thinking that word choices are at the crux here ... when someone says someone is being manipulated, it comes with the understanding usually that there is an undertone of malice and skillful forethought.  Something a 3 year old is not capable of, no matter how smart they are.  There is a lot of negative energy to the word manipulated ... and if anyone here has been manipulated in their life, they will bring that feeling into this forum and use that basis of understanding in their comments.

 

I am not so sure that Zoey is capable of manipulating her parents as let's say a person that uses guilt on another person (for example ...look at all I have done for you).  I just feel that Zoey has discovered something she feels works.  In my line of business I have a saying ... do what works until it doesn't work anymore and then find something else that works ... rinse, repeat.

 

Zoey, for the moment in time, has found something that works and she is using it ... I don't think it's a case of manipulating.  In her short little life, if she has used this tactic for let's say a year and it worked ... it would be like one of us 45 (or so) year old adults practicing some bad habit for 15 years, it will take time to reverse it.  It's not going to get fixed in just one instance.

 

We all tend to speak from experience ... like someone up thread said, what is the voice we are using.  One step further ... if our world is full of manipulation, we are going to find it "feels" the same as what Zoey seems to be doing to her parents.  Doesn't make it so. 

 

Just some random thoughts.

 

ETA:  I had swimming lessons at 6 months old.  I was a proficient swimmer at 3 years.  I was trained as a junior lifeguard.  I cannot tell you how many children I have seen scream, cry and carry on worse than Zoey who end up loving the water.  When you live on an small island, 3000 miles from any land, swimming is not an option, it's a necessity ... it's one of those things that you teach your children whether they like it or not. 

[CousinAmy]

Swimming lessons will take on a new urgency if they buy that beach house. I can definitely see both children wandering onto the beach, then the water....

[ZoloftBlob]

And then we will learn that little people, just like average height people, can have tragedies. In my local community, the newscasters end their broadcasts with "and please watch your kids around water" and they aren't directing it at the handicapped. In fact, not one of the drowned toddlers in the pool this year in my area was from a family of disabled adults. Nope, all those dead drowned kids drowned with average height parents who were allowed to have both children and a pool with no public censure. Shit, they didn't even get arrested for child endangerment after the fact, even though you'd think an average height person with a pool and a child should be as liable as a little person for you know, merrily endangering their child.

I'm sure Bill and Jen know the risks. Their children are statistically more likely to die in a car wreck... Perhaps it's time Bill and Jen stop allowing the kids into cars.