S01.E09: 9

[SHOgirl]

This whole "I have the desperate sadz now" epiphany that Alison had last week over realizing that the ranch aint worth squat is just stupid to me because she is living in a house she inherited from her grandparents, yes? And said house sits on a sand dune bluff on the ocean. In Montauk. That house alone is worth a fucking fortune. So just sell your own damn house and move it along, honey. But no, the story obsesses over the ranch suddenly being worth nada and there is no spare nickel to be had anywhere. This makes no sense as Alison and Cole ramble around in their own oceanfront property.

I was originally drawn into this story I think because of the magnetic pull of the lovers' scenes, but now they're coming off as more and more contrived and less and less about finding an unexpected and deep love. Maybe that's intentional. Maybe that's what sudden affairs are like. Maybe you feel this magnetic pull and you're willing to risk it all only to find out that after the glow wears off you're looking at someone you don't know and thinking, "what the fuck did I just do?!" If that's true then kudos to the writers. But at least clean up some of this ridiculous fluff in the story that doesn't make sense. Like, Alison not realizing that she can sell her own house and start over with a pile of freshly minted Benjamin's. Like either making the ranch worth something or not worth something. Like having them actually making money selling drugs. Like making Alison steal shit from the hospital that she can't get at her local CVS drugstore (how fucking challenging is it to get bandages at a pharmacy that you need to steal them illicitly from a hospital?!) You know, just small discrepancies like that annoy the hell out of me. It's lazy writing and lazy set decoration and lazy story telling on a basic level. Just make some damn sense here and there, is that too much to ask for, show?

I agree on most counts but I understood Allison's stealing bandages differently. I'm fairly certain she was at the hospital to genuinely ask for a job. Then she saw the sick child, freaked out, took the bandages then immediately went somewhere to cut. I don't think Allison going to the hospital looking for a job was an elaborate ruse to steal bandages. It was spontaneous and made perfect sense to me. Edited December 17, 2014 by SHOgirl

[Higgs]

The show's stated purpose is to examine human emotions and consequent behavior under stress. Its style does not involve shock revelations or plot twists. It's not a morality tale; it deals in observation, not judgment.

Alison was not doing drugs. Her 'stories', and Noah's, are their private memories, not what they are recounting to others, except for the self-censored summaries for the detective. Alison remembers delivering drugs, so there is no reason to believe she wouldn't remeber using, especially as it would provide insight into the depth of her despair and therefore of her need for the affair and to leave Cole.

Alison/Noah are not more or less "selfish" than Cole/Helen. Alison tells Cole, "But I'll die if I stay any longer. I don't want to die." The (extraordinarily) unselfish husband would help her leave, not try to hang on for his own needs. The Butler/Solloway marriage was jointly selfish from its very beginning; Helen wanted safety, Noah wanted class. This is all brought out In the preview, in which Helen says to Noah, "I want you to come home...I can't do this alone, I hate my life without you." She mentions her (perfectly legitimate and normal) needs, and doesn't mention the children (in whose lives the separated Noah remains very much involved). Whatever selfishness we observe in the lovers and their respective spouses are merely distinctions in details without differences in substance.

If Scotty's death turns out to have resulted from an emotional effect of the affair, it will have a defensible purpose in the story. Otherwise, Treem, knock it off.

True story: I was once in an emergency room because there was a tiny piece of glass in my eye due to the wind-blown debris of a bombing. At one point the entire staff rushed out to attend to a more urgent case. Lying there absolutely alone, hardly near death but in some real discomfort, I reached over and stole some band-aids out of an open drawer. So, no, I'm not in any way a better person than any character on this show.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[izabella]

Alison/Noah are not more or less "selfish" than Cole/Helen. Alison tells Cole, "But I'll die if I stay any longer. I don't want to die." The (extraordinarily) unselfish husband would help her leave, not try to hang on for his own needs.

 

That is what Cole ended up doing.  After she said she would die if she stayed longer, Cole did indeed pack a bag and ran to the train station so he could go with her.  Despite knowing about her affairs, he still wants to help her and be with her.  Where is the selfishness? 

 

Allison's selfishness is a lot more apparent.  She wasn't saying she'd die if she stayed longer when she was expecting some millions to come her way after Cole got his piece of the ranch (and she presumably took half his money to run away from him).  She only felt that way when she saw there was no money so she no longer had a reason to stay.

Edited December 17, 2014 by izabella

[Higgs]

That is what Cole ended up doing. After she said she would die if she stayed longer, Cole did indeed pack a bag and ran to the train station so he could go with her. Despite knowing about her affairs, he still wants to help her and be with her. Where is the selfishness?

He has to let her go, not "be with her". Unselfishness is meeting someone else's needs, especially when they conflict with one's own.

In Terrence Malick's great epic war movie "The Thin Red Line", a soldier on Guadalcanal receives a "dear john" letter from his fiance. In it, she tells him she has met and fallen in love with another man, and begs, "Please help me leave you". That's what Cole needed to do.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[izabella]

Except she didn't tell him she needed to be away from him.  She just said she couldn't stay in the Hamptons.

[stillshimpy]

This whole "I have the desperate sadz now" epiphany that Alison had last week over realizing that the ranch aint worth squat is just stupid  to me because she is living in a house she inherited from her grandparents, yes?  And said house sits on a sand dune bluff on the ocean. In Montauk.

 

I wonder if it actually belongs to Athena now that her grandmother has died?  It better, because for real that thing would be gold mine all by itself. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Constantinople]

This whole "I have the desperate sadz now" epiphany that Alison had last week over realizing that the ranch aint worth squat is just stupid  to me because she is living in a house she inherited from her grandparents, yes?  And said house sits on a sand dune bluff on the ocean. In Montauk. That house alone is worth a fucking fortune. So just sell your own damn house and move it along, honey. But no, the story obsesses over the ranch suddenly being worth nada and there is no spare nickel to be had anywhere. This makes no sense as Alison and Cole ramble around in their own oceanfront property.

I'm a little unclear on who owns "Alison's" house.

 

I thought Alison said her grandparents purchased it, but I don't recall if she said whether it was her maternal grandparents or paternal grandparents. I've been operating under the assumption that it was her maternal grandparents.

If that's the case, then I'm assuming that Alison's maternal grandmother Joan owned the house until Alison DNR'd her.  If Joan didn't have a will, then Athena would get the house; if Joan did have a will, then whomever she named in the will would get the house.

[stillshimpy]

Oh by the way, I don't really have a tremendous urge to research this, but here's a link to a grandfather clause on property taxes in California, involving Warren Buffet's properties just to give you an idea of how this might run.   There are laws on the books in a lot of states that exist precisely so that a family holding cannot increase in value to an extent that property taxes could increase if there had been no change in ownership.  I don't know if there is one in place in Montauk or not, but it's not actually that uncommon.  Long, long story but I lived in Colorado when some areas were approved for limited stakes gambling and dirt poor people saw their property values sky rocket making selling seem like the smartest thing to do.  Propositions were put on the ballots to keep people from being forced in to selling by having their property taxes sky rocket that way.  

 

As long as there is no change in ownership what they can sell a property for does not necessarily reflect their property tax assessment, is my point.   It might because it was pretty clearly spelled out that Cherry had been taking out loans on the property (because they are almost indescribably bad at selling drugs).  

Edited December 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Boundary]

I think the whole thing about the ranch's finances hinge on Cherry's deception. It doesn't matter what the brothers do, if Cherry's finances are underwater and she's not fessing up then the boys aren't going to know that Ma has a situation she needs a hand on. Besides, I have no idea about the profit margin on drugs but the operating expenses couldn't have been small, and after that the money has to fund the living expenses of 4 brothers and their partners and then Cherry's lifestyle and her ranch. If Cherry was upfront with her kids, I'm sure they'd have rejigged their own lifestyle in order to fix the ranch's finances some time ago. 

 

I'm a little unclear on who owns "Alison's" house.

 

As you mentioned, then it's possible the house was funding the grandmother's care in her latter years, and so that house itself could be sinking under loan refinancing. If not, Alison still has the problem of selling the house without, you know, separating and divorcing Cole, if the house is hers then it's also his. Strangely enough, at the moment, Cole has a bigger claim to that house than to the ranch. 

 

Except she didn't tell him she needed to be away from him.  She just said she couldn't stay in the Hamptons.

 

After the Brooklyn incident, Cole should be aware his marriage was hanging by a thread. Because of grief and possibly guilt, he's given Alison a lot of leeway, trust and he loves her still, it's obvious. But he needs to start holding her accountable for her behaviour and sometimes that means separation. I'm loathe to comment about this before Sunday's episode airing and making a fool out of me. I need to see him either get territorial and fighting for his marriage with all he's got or truly letting her go. This halfway house he seems to have been inhabiting isn't sustainable.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Boundary

[IMCranky]

I do hope Noah stays very involved with his children during the separation, because he really hasn't been overly concerned with them - except for Whitney - that we've seen.  As has been said before, the one he really needs to be very involved with is Martin, who seems to be a ticking time bomb that may blow up in Noah's face.  Martin's practically been screaming to his father for help, but Noah hasn't been really paying attention.  I single Noah out here because, at least from what's been shown, Helen is unaware of the freaking red flag prank "hanging" and the bullying trouble that Martin told Noah he's having at school.  She knows stuff is up with Martin, because she convinced Noah to let him go for the job at the ranch because it was the first time they'd seen him excited about something in a while, but we haven't seen how much she actually knows about what's going on with him.  Just have a feeling that there's going to be a major crisis and it's going to result from Noah not realizing the severity of the Martin situation.  He's been pretty much writing off Martin's behavior off as typical teen stuff.  Martin should probably be in counseling (as probably also should Alison), but, although he reluctantly agreed to attend a session with Whitney's therapist and to go to marriage counseling, we've seen Noah time and again show disdain for therapy.  I hope we're shown why he's so against it.  Helen has apparently been in therapy for a while - probably due to the "wasteland" of her childhood - as she's mentioned her therapist earlier on when talking about finding someone for Whitney, so I wonder if his antipathy is based on thinking Helen really has no reason to be in counseling.  And I wonder if whatever medication that was in the prescription pill bottle Helen was fiddling with a few episodes back is going to come into play somehow, too.

Edited December 17, 2014 by IMCranky

[Bcharmer]

Speaking of the Solloway kids, where were they when Helen was kicking Noah out of the house? None of that yelling, screaming, and smashing of breakable objects rousted any of those little darlings from their bedrooms to see what was going on? Not one tousled head poked out of a door. 

[IMCranky]

Speaking of the Solloway kids, where were they when Helen was kicking Noah out of the house? None of that yelling, screaming, and smashing of breakable objects rousted any of those little darlings from their bedrooms to see what was going on? Not one tousled head poked out of a door. 

Since it was Noah's memory, he probably couldn't stand to remember his kids seeing his shamed exodus. 

[Higgs]

I do hope Noah stays very involved with his children during the separation...

......

Helen is unaware of ... the bullying trouble that Martin told Noah he's having at school.

......

...we've seen Noah time and again show disdain for therapy.

At the time of his interrogation, Noah was shown helping Trevor with an essay on one occasion, and planning to take him to a Yankees game on another. Whitney is long gone to college. Martin may have left home as well, either to college, to sell cigarettes on Staten Island, or to join ISIS in Syria.

.......

Martin told Noah, but not Helen, about the bullying. So who's the more involved parent? Whom does Martin trust the more?

......

Men are more reluctant to talk to a therapist than women, possibly because they regard it as "weak" (i.e., "unmanly") or because the gender is less evolved socially. (Yeah, sure, don't accept personal responsibility; you can always blame Darwin.) Noah, however, has a much broader and more serious problem than that: he's been reluctant to talk to his wife for a very long time. As she pointedly and correctly says in the preview, "You never gave me a chance. You never said 'I'm different now. I want something else.'" To quote "Cool Hand Luke", there's been "a failure to communicate". They should have gone to therapy for that.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[stillshimpy]

Since it was Noah's memory, he probably couldn't stand to remember his kids seeing his shamed exodus.

 

Yeah, I like this premise and don't find it to be gimmicky, but it does occur to me that they have set up something where they can always just point to the fallibility of memory to cover any writing holes.  

 

Kind of smart really.  

 

I also wish that Helen would tell Noah, "Swell, spiffy, why the hell not?  We'll split custody, or better yet, you can have them.  I'll gladly pay child support.  I'm off the spa with my mother to have a mimosa and a sugar scrub."   I know she won't and that in fairness to Noah, he did say he wanted to leave in the way that the therapist thought was best for the kids.  

 

One of the hinkier things about the "it's memory, who knows what the reality was?" of the premise was fair evidently in that neon pink bra.  Hee!  Not only does Helen find a bra, it's so garish that Fredrick's of Hollywood would want it on the storefront mannequin.  It was the blinking sign of infidelity, but there's no way that Alison forgot that thing.  Either she left it behind on purpose or Noah just remembers it as the Scarlet A of bras.  

Edited December 17, 2014 by stillshimpy

[IMCranky]

Martin told Noah, but not Helen, about the bullying. So who's the more involved parent? Whom does Martin trust the more?

......

 

Martin told Noah, but Noah didn't seem too concerned about it.  Noah's also the one that found him "hanging", but again, let it drop.  It may be that Martin may trust Noah more, but if Noah doesn't take him seriously, where does that leave him?  Martin seems to be really crying out for help, but if the parent he keeps turning to isn't really responding, then it seems to be, unintentionally, setting Martin up for some big crisis.

Edited December 17, 2014 by IMCranky

[jrlr]

I'm really curious what the deal is with Noah's father.  Until Max asked Noah if he'd spoken to him recently, I had thought that both of Noah's parents were dead.  It was a very pointed exchange and it has to lead somewhere, right?

[JudyObscure]

 

 

Speaking of the Solloway kids, where were they when Helen was kicking Noah out of the house? None of that yelling, screaming, and smashing of breakable objects rousted any of those little darlings from their bedrooms to see what was going on? Not one tousled head poked out of a door.

I thought that was a glaring mistake.  Between  "Waiting for Whitney to start college,"  as the only reason to try and delay the divorce and the complete absence of curious children during the screaming and crashing, I started to wonder if I'd missed a scene where they were all sent to private school in England.  Telling your children that you're leaving is the hardest part of any divorce,  I don't want  the show to let Noah skip over that.

[izabella]

That's an excellent point, JudyObscure.  Noah just took off without even saying goodbye to his children.

[Higgs]

Martin told Noah, but Noah didn't seem too concerned about it.

Noah said he'd send him to a private school, which meant he'd have to crawl to Bruce for the money (easily $30k/year), a prospect he might have traded for a week at Gitmo. How much more concerned could he have been? And if Martin believed he would have gotten more sympathy and action from Helen, why didn't he go to her?

Yeah, I like this premise and don't find it to be gimmicky, but it does occur to me that they have set up something where they can always just point to the fallibility of memory to cover any writing holes. ... One of the hinkier things about the "it's memory, who knows what the reality was?" of the premise...

And what we see from each of them are their impressions of the most important events (from their own perspectives) from among the day's happenings. The things they've held on to and come to mind first because they were the things that mattered most to them.

Alison's and Noah's "stories" of what each and all the other characters said and did were never meant to be taken as the precise, objective, and complete truth, but they do provide a very fair indication of their thoughts and emotional states at the time. Edited December 17, 2014 by Higgs

[Constantinople]

Noah said he'd send him to a private school, which meant he'd have to crawl to Bruce for the money (easily $30k/year), a prospect he might have traded for a week at Gitmo. How much more concerned could he have been?

Concerned enough to put his son's welfare before his petty pride.

 

If Noah actually gave a shit, the least he could have done was talk to Helen about it. That's what Helen did when she found out about Whitney's cyber-bullying. Helen talked to her spouse so they could figure out together what to do.  But, as with Martin's fake suicide, Noah just blew it off.

 

Detective: Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?

Holmes: To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.

Detective: The dog did nothing in the night-time.

Holmes: That was the curious incident.

 

And if Martin believed he would have gotten more sympathy and action from Helen, why didn't he go to her?

If I recall correctly, Martin didn't go to Noah either. Martin and Noah were at home together, Noah noticed Martin was a little off, started talking to him and then Martin started talking about his problems at school.

In any case, since we don't have Helen's POV or Martin's POV, how can we know that Martin didn't talk to Helen about this?

 

[ShellSeeker]

I haven't been totally sympathetic to Helen throughout the series, although she certainly didn't deserve to get cheated on. But I can't figure out what she meant by "get out of my fucking house."

 

It could be that she meant it was her house, that her parents paid for, and this is a distinct possibility because it's been an issue throughout the series that she's had no problem letting her parents finance their lifestyle, while Noah has been much more uncomfortable with that. In fairness to Helen though, Noah never did (at least not that we've seen) grow a pair and put his foot down and say, "No, we are absolutely NOT taking any more money from your parents." So yeah, it did bother him, but not enough to actually do anything about it. 

 

But the other way to interpret that statement is that Helen was saying, "OK, so you want out of the marriage, and you want to walk out on your wife and kids. So therefore, this is no longer your home, or our home, but my home." If that's what she meant, I totally get that.

 

And Allison...clearly, she's extremely self-destructive, and hurts the people close to her and other people, I think so everyone else will feel as shitty as she does. I cut her some more slack though, because her actions demonstrate to me that she's never fully dealt with her grief and guilt over her son's death. That scene in the doctor's office played like it was the first time she'd ever talked through everything that happened, maybe it was the first time she'd even let herself think about it in any depth at all. So she's messed up, and she's been messed up for a long time. It doesn't excuse her actions, but it does explain them to a certain degree.

 

And Cole does seem like a good guy who loves her and would follow her to the ends of the earth. But obviously Allison feels disconnected from him. It's as if they both grieved for their son, but alone, beside each other, but not with each other, if that makes sense. They probably both feel responsible, since Gabriel almost drowned while Cole was watching him, and then Allison decided not to take him to the ER. It's probably a conversation they've never had. And Cole has that tattoo, which Allison has said she doesn't like -- that she has to wake up and look at it "every fucking morning" for the rest of her life. So he probably didn't talk to her before getting it, which tells me that they haven't really been communicating at all since losing their son. It just seems like there's an awful lot unsaid between them, which was likely a catalyst for Allison to get involved with Noah.

[JenE4]

Thanks to IMCranky's thought-provoking post of Martin's issues, I now think it's possible that Martin ran over Scotty! He's 14-ish, right? So he'd be driving in 3 years. But there has to be a reason why episode 1 started with Martin faking suicide. It was just such an odd scenario that made no sense, but if he ends up being a major player in the storyline, then that makes a bit more sense. Plus, he also shows up as "troubled" in Alison's memories by letting the horse loose for no reason. Does he have a motive at this point? Well, he didn't have a motive for doing those other things, either. Hell, for all we know he might think that it's Scott's fault that his family broke up. Think about it. It comes out that his sister gets pregnant by Scotty and his dad leaves that night. Many parents would not say their one parent cheated, so he could think that's why his dad left. Plus, he's planning on working at the ranch next summer, right? Scotty is his mentor there. Something else could happen next summer or the one after, right before the wedding. Who knows, but I'm now putting this kid on my suspect list.

[Bcharmer]

They probably both feel responsible, since Gabriel almost drowned while Cole was watching him, and then Allison decided not to take him to the ER. 

 

This reminds me of the scene in the doctor's office, that I meant to bring up. Alison tells him that she's been thinking of the night that Gabriel died. She asked him what happened, because she said she "can't remember," it's all starting to "slip away" from her. He then asks, "What do you remember?" Alison proceeds to recount almost every detail of that night...  the party at the beach, all the kids in the water, a bonfire, her thinking Gabriel would be cold when he got out, what happened after that, her giving him mouth to mouth, him spitting up a lot of water, how Gabriel wet himself, how he was falling asleep on her shoulder, how she thought she'd let him sleep, and if he felt bad the next day she'd take him to the... etc. So, what exactly could she not remember? What memory was slipping away? I know it was purely for exposition purposes... a way for them to reveal details of Gabriel's death that we hadn't yet heard, but why write the scene on the pretense that she couldn't remember, then have her relate everything that happened? Great acting by Ruth Wilson, but I can't help but think they could have written it in a more believable way, because the more I thought about it, the more that really didn't make sense. Was it just that she didn't remember that letting him sleep was what caused his death?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Bcharmer

[Ellaria]

Thanks to IMCranky's thought-provoking post of Martin's issues, I now think it's possible that Martin ran over Scotty! He's 14-ish, right? So he'd be driving in 3 years. But there has to be a reason why episode 1 started with Martin faking suicide. It was just such an odd scenario that made no sense, but if he ends up being a major player in the storyline, then that makes a bit more sense. Plus, he also shows up as "troubled" in Alison's memories by letting the horse loose for no reason. Does he have a motive at this point? Well, he didn't have a motive for doing those other things, either. Hell, for all we know he might think that it's Scott's fault that his family broke up. Think about it. It comes out that his sister gets pregnant by Scotty and his dad leaves that night. Many parents would not say their one parent cheated, so he could think that's why his dad left. Plus, he's planning on working at the ranch next summer, right? Scotty is his mentor there. Something else could happen next summer or the one after, right before the wedding. Who knows, but I'm now putting this kid on my suspect list.

 

I love this. I will put him on my suspect list, too. Wonder if Detective Jeffries has considered it?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[izabella]

 Was it just that she didn't remember that letting him sleep was what caused his death?

 

I wonder if Allison forgot that Cherry had urged her to take him to the hospital. 

[Bcharmer]

She did remember thinking about calling her doctor that night, but there was a wedding in his family, so she didn't want to bother him.  So, she had that much clarity. When Cherry "reminded" her that she wanted her to take him to the hospital, it didn't seem as though that was something she'd forgotten, either. As if that wasn't cruel enough, Cherry had to end it with "It should have been you."  How evil.

[Higgs]

Martin declared his hatred for his grandfather and desire not to have to go to Montauk right after the fake suicide. Why should he hate his grandfather, who probably treats him at least decently? Why does he hate him so much he would pull an idiotic prank in the hope of staving off a two-month vacation in the lap of luxury where he could ogle bikinied beach babes? Why does he hate him so much he would loose a horse in the hope that such an act would ruin his future ranch job prospects and thereby help forestall having to endure another family vacation at the Butler manse? As it happens, he not only has good and rational reason to feel and act the way he does, he is fully in line with a primal male tradition: filial devotion, as told in the stories of Orestes and Agamemnon, Hamlet and the King, Kurt and Burt (don't ask), and this guy:

http://youtu.be/6JGp7Meg42U

It's Martin's intuitive understanding that something is rotten in the Borough of Brooklyn, and the stench arises from his family's dependence on the Butler dough and the concomitant explicit disrespect accorded his father by his grandparents in his presence. And it's not just Martin who senses something is terribly wrong at home. Whitney's reaction is to suspect that it's her mother who's unfaithful, as it speaks to her immature sense of what a wife might (ought to?) do when she and her parents all perceive she made a wrong choice in a husband.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Higgs

[AmandaPanda]

Hi everyone,

 

I just want to remind everyone that episode threads are meant to be specific to the events of that particular episode. If you're wanting to dissect the show as a whole or share your theories about who killed Scotty, that needs to go in the speculation thread. 

 

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

Thanks!

[Jack Terrier]

 

 

And Noah "I don't want this life" Solloway needs to get pushed off the nearest building. I really hope the reason that Noah's kids seem awful is ENTIRELY in his own mind, and if/when we get a S2 from another perspective they're just your regular average teenage assholes and not the tiny sociopaths he sees them as to justify cheating on his imperfect but still wonderful wife, and leaving those children. DOUCHEBAG.

 

THAT is an excellent point.  I did not look at it from that perspective at all! 

It would make sense that it's his perception of his 'horrible' life that he's creating this 'reality' in his own mind.

[GeminiDancer]

After the Brooklyn incident, Cole should be aware his marriage was hanging by a thread. Because of grief and possibly guilt, he's given Alison a lot of leeway, trust and he loves her still, it's obvious. But he needs to start holding her accountable for her behaviour and sometimes that means separation. I'm loathe to comment about this before Sunday's episode airing and making a fool out of me. I need to see him either get territorial and fighting for his marriage with all he's got or truly letting her go. This halfway house he seems to have been inhabiting isn't sustainable.

 

I think the Brooklyn incident would have been the best time for her to be clear on how she felt because that seemed to be the first time Cole allowed himself to open up to her in that way. Unfortunately, she didn't, and made the choice to go home with him and go hand-in-hand to the hospital. What makes Alison worse in my eyes, compared to Douchey McDouche, is that she has yet to come clean about how she feels to Cole. She has not told him that she's "in love" with another man. And then to cuckold him with a man Cole despises on top of that. Someone needs to tell her that her shit stinks too.

 

At this point, I would love for Cole to walk away from her instead of vice versa.

Edited December 18, 2014 by GeminiDancer

[JudyObscure]

And then to cuckold him with a man Cole despises on top of that.

You know, I hadn't even thought of that. I just saw her one nighter with Oscar as more of Allison acting out her self-hatred. But yes, you're right, even drunk and miserable some part of her should have said, "Wait! This is my husband's worst enemy! He has already told my husband about my affair and has demonstrated how much he enjoys hurting him." I'm also appalled at how cavalier she's being with her reproductive capabilities. She very pointedly went off her pills with a view to getting pregnant by Cole. Since we haven't seen the slightest hint of a contraceptive, then she should be well aware of the chances she's taking over the paternity of her future child. We can rest assured that Mr. "I have four children I can't afford and don't have time for," isn't using anything.

[blixie]

Yup while I hope to hell she isn't married to Oscar in the future timeline, he's obviously one of three potential baby daddy's: Cole, Noah, and Oscar.

[Bcharmer]

I hope she isn't pregnant by Oscar, but not for obvious reasons. It's because I really, really hate it when one-night stands on television result in a pregnancy. Magically, their tryst is timed perfectly with the women's menstrual cycle. It happens way too often on TV (movies, too, I suppose). Many women try month after month after month to get pregnant, but on television? A one-nighter is all it takes. So, yeah. I hope they don't go there, just for that reason alone.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Bcharmer

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Should we assume, from the quality of communication that we see between Alison and Cole, that they have never discussed the guilt they suffer concerning their son's death, or the poisonous blame towards the other that they each carry.  

 

Seems a safe bet, no?  And an unbearable burden, for a marriage.  No expiation, no comfort, no forgiveness for your partner or yourself.  And how could one forgive oneself, if one was not first forgiven.

 

If Alison was "over the edge" initially after their child's death, and for months after, there has probably not been much communication between them.  Actually, I think Cole does forgive Alison.  (Or never blamed her.)  But without hearing it, how can she believe it?  No wonder she needs to get away, at any cost.

Edited December 18, 2014 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[JudyObscure]

While Allison was carrying Gabriel home and putting him to bed, Cole must have stayed on the beach, as though his son's near drowning was no big deal. He better not blame her.

[Boundary]

Should we assume, from the quality of communication that we see between Alison and Cole, that they have never discussed the guilt they suffer concerning their son's death, or the poisonous blame towards the other that they each carry.  

 

Seems someone, especially Athena, would have suggested therapy by now. I mean, everyone can see how fragile Alison is (and therefore I can understand how Cole can avoid bringing the subject up) but someone should have ordered them to see a therapist by now, surely?

[izabella]

I think if Cole stayed on the beach, it was probably because he was beating himself up for not getting his son out of the water fast enough, or for taking his eye off him.   I don't get the sense that he blames Allison at all.

Seems someone, especially Athena, would have suggested therapy by now. I mean, everyone can see how fragile Alison is (and therefore I can understand how Cole can avoid bringing the subject up) but someone should have ordered them to see a therapist by now, surely?

 

You mean someone, ohh, like her doctor who patched up the cut on her thigh?   Maybe he's suggested it in the past, and she won't go.  Maybe she's holding on to her grief because she doesn't want to "let go" of her son.

[JenE4]

This episode was on last night so I was going to watch it again. I fell asleep, yet I did at least see the shampoo scene again. On first viewing, I was among the camp who thought she spitefully squeezed it out. However, it is possible that she was just using more. She had this gleeful look on her face as she held her one hand up by her head and squeezed a bunch out. Yet, her other hand wasn't in the frame, so it's possible that she was pouring it into her hand to use it. Granted, it was an awkward position and it's more shampoo than she reasonably needed. But it's possible that she wasn't being a spiteful bitch and was rather just thinking OMG when in my life will I ever again have the chance to use $11.75-worth of shampoo in one washing?!

I found it so interesting how my OWN memories of the event were skewed. Maybe what I thought I watched didn't actually happen that way. Kudos, show!

Edited December 19, 2014 by JenE4

[stillshimpy]

But it's possible that she wasn't being a spiteful bitch and was rather just thinking OMG when in my life will I ever again have the chance to use $11.75-worth of shampoo in one washing?!

 

It's possible, but it isn't likely.  Helen did actually ask Noah if he had been using her shampoo, which means that Alison dumped enough of it to be noticeable.  That seemed to be the point of her action, regardless of whether she dumped it down the drain or into her hand.  

 

Even if she was dumping half a bottle of shampoo on her head, it was still just an action designed to be spiteful.  Also, why in the hell did Noah have to give her one of Helen's blouses rather than one of his t-shirts?  After they've screwed in Noah and Helen's bed and Alison was weirdly breaking things in the kitchen (what waitress alive wouldn't recognize an oil and vinegar set? They usually aren't nesting in restaurants, but she would have known what it was on sight) and somehow manages to not notice that she's missing some of her underwear, I really don't personally feel the need to try and shed a better light on the shampoo moment.  

 

Even if she was just lathering up for a salon's worth of people, that takes her actions from being a vindictive shrew for no good reason, to only being extremely callous and cruel.  I get that Alison likely is supposed to be so damaged that she's low on empathy.  I also get that when people have affairs, part of the allure is the feeling of danger, it's a thrill-seeking activity at times.  That feeling of "we could be caught at any moment"  but since that house involves four kids, it's pretty harsh stuff to be there.  Good thing Whitney didn't decide to sneak home to research her abortion, or Martin to shop for more suicide-faking props (now there's a weird internet search).  Or for the smallest Solloway to develop one of those raging ear infections that seem to spring up, as if through the floorboards, necessitating Helen's early return with sick child in tow.  

 

Just saying, even if she'd completely taken a pass on washing her hair because she didn't want to risk Helen missing a quarter teaspoon of shampoo, she's being a complete jackass only outpaced by Noah.  

 

When Helen said "Get out of MY house" I have to admit, I was perfectly fine with that.  Noah's groused and complained about Bruce's money making his life easier.  He and Alison did almost everything short of crapping in the bed where Helen has to sleep.  People can fall out of love and relationships can need to end, but Noah and Allison were being such gigantic twerps about it all.  

 

Also, for fig's sake,  if you know your illicit girlfriend is headed in for a spot of affair having love-in-the-afternoon, which had to require planning, how did they not make prior arrangements for a place to tryst?  How can you live in Brookyln and not know the hotels are bloody expensive? The grossest thing about all of that is that it had to always be in the back of Noah's mind that they'd be having sex in the house that Bruce's money bought.  

 

Helen is likable enough, but she is a snob and that's about the least likable quality in anyway.  Looking down on other people for having a less fortunate accident-of-birth in their placement on the planet?  Ew and yuck.  However, it's a little difficult to blame Helen for thinking Alison's  sort of trashy, because she's behaving pretty poorly when it comes to Helen.  You've won Alison, no need to spike a football in Helen's face, they have four children together.  You're devastating someone else's life, what the hell? 

 

Great, be in love, ditch your respective relationships and go with the gods of love to the romance-lands, but there's no call to be this wormy about it all. 

 

I don't dislike Noah and Alison because they are having an affair, but a lot of their actions outside of that and involved with it aren't likable at all.  So I was actually glad that Helen spectacularly lost her shit and threw Noah the hell out with broken glass aplenty, because that's essentially what Noah and Alison were trying to accomplish whether or not they were consciously acknowledging that.  

 

1) Make plans to meet your extra-marital girlfriend, but don't have a place to boink.  Despite having Max, the wonder-buddy in the city.  They couldn't plan to meet somewhere in New Jersey at a Motel 8. Nope! Just show up and then feign surprise when not having a reservation in Brooklyn results in nowhere to go.  

 

2) Take girlfriend to your house, both giving lip service to "we're totally not going to have sex here, that would make us heartless scum and we, we are in love!"  ....only to decide it's time for sexually adventurous sex, no less.  

 

3) Allow girlfriend to wander around house in a towel for no discernible reason other than to up the chances of a nearly naked woman being found wandering around.  

 

4) This is after doing things like washing the sheets, showering and using the wife's personal products and somehow managing to misplace multiple garments.  

 

5) But the best one on Alison's list of "oh you guys totally wanted to be busted" was Alison breaking something and not even telling Noah, so he could just look blank or panic when Helen invariably noticed.  

 

So mission accomplished, you dynamic duo!  That's why I cheered the "Get out of MY house" because sweet lords of mercy, they did enough to try and guarantee that end result. 

 

It's a little bit like when you have kids and they do something just made of  wrong-headed action, as a parent you really learn to make the distinction, "I don't dislike you, but I disliked this particular action" and man, was this whole escapade made of wrong-headed action there, kids. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[JenE4]

It's possible, but it isn't likely.  Helen did actually ask Noah if he had been using her shampoo, which means that Alison dumped enough of it to be noticeable.  That seemed to be the point of her action, regardless of whether she dumped it down the drain or into her hand.

 

We can't know that that was Alison's intention to ensure that Helen would notice. However, I think that was the WRITER's point of that scene because obviously the writer was tying those two actions together. The stage direction could have just been "[Alison gleefully uses a large amount of shampoo]." The intention isn't known. And that's the beauty of this show because one person's innocuous action that doesn't even register as a blip in their OWN memory can be a major, emotionally wrought action in the OTHER person's memory. Case in point: Seeing the apartment. Noah doesn't even recall this as something that happened that day, and yet just the act of Noah urging Alison to lease it rather than doing so himself was enough to set Alison over the edge to the extent that she slept with Oscar (ew!)  just because she was so angry thinking he'd never leave Helen. I mean, I agree with you that cheating on one's spouse is a terrible thing and doing it in their own house is even worse. I'm just saying on my first viewing of the shampoo scene I thought, OMG, what a vindictive b!tch! But then rewatching it a second time, I can see how maybe my own viewing of the events was skewing her intentions because all we could see was that a happy-looking person was dispensing a large amount of shampoo that may have been into her hand rather than down the drain. And, I think it's an interesting take on the overarching theme: What we bring to viewing the scene can skew the "memories" just as much it is for Noah and Alison. In fact, just re-watching it a day later, I was surprised that she slept with Oscar before talking to Cherry, I mean, within a split second I was thinking, Of course, she took his truck to see her! But I think in my own mind I would have "justified" her sleeping with Oscar AFTER the incidents with Noah and Cherry because THAT would have been the downswing to rock bottom. (Again, that's me subscribing an intention that wasn't actually expressed.) So, if I can't clearly remember the events 24 hours later, is it any wonder that they don't three years later?

[GeminiDancer]

The situation with Cherry wouldn't have happened if she hadn't slept with Oscar because Alison was still under the impression that the ranch was worth something when she told him of her initial plan to take half Cole's share from the sale and leave.

[Cirien]

But she'd slept with Noah. And there's an intimacy to using someone's else shampoo. Like ....

[nomodrama]

About 2 years ago, my siblings and I found out that my mother was cheating on my father with a man she had known in high school and suddenly reconnected with on Facebook. This man was also married at the time. My parents like Noah and Helen also married young, my mother was only 18. When she finally came clean to us she told us that she had been unhappy for years, but in order to spare us she had stuck around until she tought we were all in a place where it would not affect us (my youngest sister was 21 at the time). She also told us she had finally met the love of her life and realized she never really loved my father. I don't disbelieve that she may have been unhappy but like Noah my mother complained all the time, my parents would go at it one day and then the next night their bedroom door would be locked just after bedtime (hint, hint). I think just like Noah she wanted a soft landing, she wasn't prepared to start over by herself (also in her late forties!) so she latched on to this new possibility. It feels sometimes like she used my father and the comfort and security of our home until something better came along. I can see that in Noah and Helen's relationship as well.  

 

I was going to completely avoid this show when I first heard about it, just the word "affair," makes my stomach churn. But my relationship with my mother was so irreparably damaged by this situation that I was hoping maybe this would help me understand how this kind of thing happens. Since then my parents divorced and my mother and the man she cheated with are now married. I think this show has only convinced me more of what selfish assholes my mother and her new husband were. Hearing the advice that Noah's friend gave really hit home for me. About two seconds after the ink was signed on the divorce my mother was already getting remarried, and now almost a year later, is she happier? Was it all worth it?  I can honestly say that I don't think it was. I'd love to ask her that someday. I'd be interested to see what life would be like for Noah and Allison if they stayed together for the long run, if they would be happy with their choices in the future.

[Milburn Stone]

We can't know that that was Alison's intention [in pouring a salon's worth of shampoo down the drain, trademark stillshimpy] to ensure that Helen would notice. 

 

All drama (all drama that's interesting, anyway) relies on the audience to make inferences as to motive. If audiences weren't expected to put two and two together based on knowledge of human behavior, and instead were only allowed to consider things at face value, few people would be able to bear watching anything for more than five minutes. It was apparent to me that Alison wanted to leave behind evidence of her being there. 

[JenE4]

All drama (all drama that's interesting, anyway) relies on the audience to make inferences as to motive. If audiences weren't expected to put two and two together based on knowledge of human behavior, and instead were only allowed to consider things at face value, few people would be able to bear watching anything for more than five minutes. It was apparent to me that Alison wanted to leave behind evidence of her being there.

Your inference is that she used the shampoo so that Helen would know she was there, but we do not know whether that was her motivation. With a family of 6 people, if I had less shampoo than I thought I did, I would think the kids used it, not my husband's mistress was here! If we're piecing together common human behavior, then more obvious signs would be leaving her shirt and bra on purpose, but she was upset that Noah accidentally mixed her shirt in with the sheets. (We didn't know about the bra.) And she also seemed to have an "Oh, shit!" reaction when she broke the oil and vinegar set. If she was obviously planting evidence, she would have been shown say pulling her hair out and leaving it in the drain or pillow or purposefully sticking her bra someplace Helen would have found it. Using someone's shampoo or even wasting someone's shampoo doesn't universally scream my husband's mistress was here. I'd just think damn that Whitney or, as Helen did, why is Noah using my shampoo? Heck, I've been a house guest and have had house guests that had some nice shampoo that I've used. I remember being 13-ish and my aunt bringing a bottle of Paul Mitchel with her and there's no way I'd ever have an opportunity to use fancy Paul Mitchel, so I snuck it every day she was there! I sure didn't want to be caught stealing her shampoo; I was paranoid the whole time about her hugging me and smelling it! If we're making inferences based on common human behavior, then I would think if most people saw someone had a $60 bottle of shampoo, your first reaction would be holy hell, who the fuck spends $60 on shampoo?! Then you are going to give your hair the most indulgent wash you'll ever have in your life. She was gleeful squeezing it out. My point is that she COULD have been wasting it or she COULD have been excited to use as much as possible. We don't KNOW which.

Plus, this was Alison's memory of what happened, so that's why later she might be focused on the glee of using that shampoo and that's why it was such a dramatic pour. When it happened, it could have been a normal height squeeze--yet did use enough for Helen to notice. But that scene was just out of place for how she reacted to the house after the shower--nervously looking around at the perfectly coordinated kitchen and at the kids' drawings. Giving the oil and vinegar the same inspection as she did the shampoo, but visibly unnerved by accidentally breaking it. If she was just being callous, why not purposefully break that, too? That's why when I watched that scene in the apartment for the second time I had a different reaction to the shampoo scene than I did on first viewing.

Edited December 20, 2014 by JenE4

[Boundary]

We can't know that that was Alison's intention to ensure that Helen would notice. 

 

I must admit, like you, on the first viewing I thought Alison was dumping the shampoo. But unlike many here, I didn't feel the urge to judge her harshly for it. That could be my bias showing here, but it could also be that I didn't know that someone else's shampoo can be a big deal. Obviously Alison knew it, which is why she dumped it. However, you seen the episode again and aren't convinced by your first impression - that interests me greatly. So what was Alison's real intention? Is it affected by the impression you end up favoring? What was the writers' intention with that scene?

 

Your inference is that she used the shampoo so that Helen would know she was there, but we do not know whether that was her motivation. With a family of 6 people, if I had less shampoo than I thought I did, I would think the kids used it, not my husband's mistress was here! 

 

 

This argument convinces me, obviously, and I'd hazard a guess that it's how it works in real life too. Helen didn't latch on to the fact that Alison was there until Noah pretty much confessed and the bra sealed it. It wasn't the shampoo. And, likewise, I didn't see the glee in Alison's face when she dropped the condiment set. It was more like she didn't expect it to loosely fall off and break, then she tried to hide the evidence. In fact, this brings to mind something. Besides that comment about Martin's behaviour and the stealing of her husband obviously, we haven't seen malicious behaviour/attitude from Alison towards Helen. She had the chance when she was discussing Helen with her friend, I don't recall any bitchy statements.

 

In fact, Alison's demeanour in the Solloway house was one of intimidation. Much like the encounter in the store, Alison's mixture of guilt and an inferiority complex was evident. She thinks of Helen as way above her: neat, wealthy, well put together and totally intimidating. One would expect that those things to breed jealousy and hence the shampoo scenario. But even if she was being malicious with the shampoo, it was a one off incident. When she added everything together, Alison concluded that Noah was never going to leave Helen, that he intended to sneak her in to some corner of his (unchanged) life. That's evidence, in part, of that inferiority complex again.

[stillshimpy]

Your inference is that she used the shampoo so that Helen would know she was there, but we do not know whether that was her motivation. With a family of 6 people, if I had less shampoo than I thought I did, I would think the kids used it, not my husband's mistress was here!

 

Except it was the Master Bath, so presumably it's the bathroom Noah and Helen use, vs. a family bathroom.  It was off the bedroom, whereas we saw Whitney exiting one that was off the hall.  There was also the bathroom where Martin was busily faking a hanging, so the brownstone doesn't appear to run short of bathrooms.  Plus, Helen asked Noah if he had been using her shampoo.   As for not being able to tell what her intention was, when coupled with other things, like misplacing her bra, breaking things without telling Noah that she had, it seems fairly likely.  She left that house without her bra, if Noah's memory is to be believed, she left her bright pink bra behind. 

 

I don't know how conscious of a desire it was, but at the very least, she was just being a jerk and combined with other actions, I think both Noah and Alison had a subconscious desire to be caught, so as to take some of the choice out of confronting and resolving the situation. 

 

By the way, for what it is or isn't worth, I didn't think Alison looked gleeful about dropping the oil and vinegar set, but she was very quick to try and hide the fact that she broke something from Noah.  

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Boundary]

I don't know how conscious of a desire it was, but at the very least, she was just being a jerk and combined with other actions, I think both Noah and Alison had a subconscious desire to be caught, so as to take some of the choice out of confronting and resolving the situation. 

 

This was not their first time, they've slept on Cole's bed before. I don't think it's a nice thing but it's not too big a deal for them, maybe their lust overrules any etiquette? I don't know if they've wanted to be caught all along, that interpretation can be applied to any risky behaviour from them: kissing in the library, taking a day off to Block Island, smooching on the dance floor at The End etc. Honestly, being a jerk is any action related to the decision to continue the affair, so by that standard it will not be hard to judge them.

 

What I find interesting is your take that they've wanted the decision to resolve this taken out of their hands. On one hand we've seen how quick Noah is to confess (so doesn't need the help of his subconscious on that front), on the other we've never really seen Alison's moral take on this situation. So while Noah continually goes on about being a "good person", fretting about the morality of his actions, thus confessing to resolve his guilt - Alison has not been shown to be conflicted at all. One answer was her outburst to Noah "I don't really care, can't you see?" So it's possible that her behaviour in Noah's house was about getting caught but if that happens that cuts short her affair. We've seen her urging Noah to give Helen a more credible reason for his absence, so that their time is well alibied. It's possible that since then she's become more selfish, wanting Noah for herself, for him to divorce and be all hers. That'll be an escalation in her character arc that hasn't been hinted at before. It's certainly possible, especially now that she might be coming to terms with Gabriel's death but Alison wanting Noah all for herself is not the impression I've had of her before. Like I've speculated, she feels inferior to Helen. Maybe she will start to find some self confidence, it'll be interesting to see it play out.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Boundary

[izabella]

To me, it seemed pretty clear that she was dumping the shampoo (as opposed to using some incredible amount of shampoo that would never even fit in her palm).

 

I don't know that she thought Helen would assume a mistress had been there when she noticed that her shampoo had been used up.  I do believe Allison wanted to "stick it to her," though, by sending her expensive shampoo down the drain, and she was gleeful about it.  To me, that seemed as obvious as it was petty.

 

As for the bra, yeah, I've never not noticed that I no longer was wearing a bra.  Allison knew she wasn't wearing one when she left and had one when she arrived.  Noah found it on the floor or under a chair or something when he was cleaning up, and he put it in the drawer.  If he hadn't found it, it would have quickly been noticed by Helen in all it's bright pink glory on the floor.

[stillshimpy]

I do believe Allison wanted to "stick it to her," though, by sending her expensive shampoo down the drain, and she was gleeful about it.  To me, that seemed as obvious as it was petty.

 

Yeah, I agree, whereas I didn't think she was gleeful when she broke the oil and vinegar set, she did seem to be indulging in some malicious glee when she dumped the shampoo down the drain.  For anyone who thinks she was just using a ridiculous amount on her hair, part of what makes that unlikely is how much of a pain in the butt it is to rinse too much shampoo out of your hair.  Besides, I don't know why she'd think courting fuzz-head hair (which is what comes from over-shampooing) would be good.  

 

Now, if we'd seen her with a tube of deep conditioner , I might buy that she was just putting excess amounts on her head, but there are actual "grown people know better than to think that is a good idea" reasons for not dumping a cup of shampoo on your hair.