TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[Padma]

1 hour ago, LuciaMia said:

Loved that Mary Pickford bio TCM had on last night. But when they said when she decided to end her movie career, I thought, Wait, wasn't she in "Night Of The Hunter"? Then realized I was confusing her with Lilian Gish! LOL

I wish I'd seen that. Just by chance, did it happen to have any footage/mention of a party she gave at her home in late 1950s/early 1960s for other silent film actresses? I don't know much else about MP, but my grandmother was invited/went. That always seemed like such a kind, gracious and thoughtful thing to do.

[Rinaldo]

Padma, not meaning to be intrusive, but is there something we should know about your grandmother? :) 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Rinaldo

[3pwood]

Over 40 years ago, I read Lillian Gish's book The Movies, Mr. Griffith, And Me, which discussed her family's friendship with Mary Pickford & their work together.  I remember enjoying it very much.  It's probably out of print now, but might be available at libraries.

[Deanie87]

I just caught the end of Streetcar Named Desire.  It is one of my all time favorites, but I haven't seen it in years. Vivien Leigh as Blanche just astounds me every time I watch it.  The performance is mannered and a bit over the top, but it just works in every way.  I was folding clothes and I had to sit down and watch it and got completely caught up again.  It always amazes me that she so owns two of the most iconic Southern roles of all time.  I really think that she is so underrated.

[voiceover]

2 hours ago, 3pwood said:

Over 40 years ago, I read Lillian Gish's book The Movies, Mr. Griffith, And Me, which discussed her family's friendship with Mary Pickford & their work together.  I remember enjoying it very much.  It's probably out of print now, but might be available at libraries.

You might also be interested in Charles Affron's Lillian Gish: Her Legend, Her Life.  I am a huge fan of her silent films, and loved this take on her life.  

[Rinaldo]

23 minutes ago, Deanie87 said:

I just caught the end of Streetcar Named Desire.  It is one of my all time favorites, but I haven't seen it in years. Vivien Leigh as Blanche just astounds me every time I watch it.  The performance is mannered and a bit over the top, but it just works in every way.  I was folding clothes and I had to sit down and watch it and got completely caught up again.  It always amazes me that she so owns two of the most iconic Southern roles of all time.  I really think that she is so underrated.

I agree. Blanche is one of those roles that sort of can't be played "realistically" and be satisfying; I've seen an actress try, do all that serious actor-y analysis and decide she should be coarse and tough and guttural, and it was awful. Leigh finds the fantasy in the person and the poetry in Williams's words, and it's just magical.

I agree about "underrated," too. People sometimes talk about Vivien Leigh as if she were just some great beauty who had the good luck to get cast in flattering star roles, but she had real acting skills and instincts. She also had genuine successes onstage in classic parts like Viola, Lady Teazle, Lady Macbeth, and Antigone, proving it wasn't all done with retakes and editing. She's one of my favorites; I just wish there were more of her on film.

[Deanie87]

Yes she just inhabits her roles. I think because her roles are so iconic that maybe she gets dismissed as more of a "movie star" than actress but that just isn't the case. And you're right about her Blanche. My introduction to Streetcar was the 80s Jessica Lange/Treat Williams tv adaptation when I was in junior high, and I was intrigued enough to find the film on VHS and was just enthralled by the performances, especially Leigh's.  And I also think she was one of the great beauties of all time, on top of all that talent.  I read her biography and it still makes me sad that her life ended as tragically as it did.

[Rinaldo]

You must be conflating two different Streetcars for TV (I hadn't remembered it was done so many times! there was also one with Laurence Olivier, Robert Wagner, and Natalie Wood). There was one in 1984 with Ann-Margret and Treat Williams -- I remember Ann-Margret being marvelous in that, very much in the evocative Leigh tradition. And another in 1995 with Jessica Lange and Alec Baldwin.

[Padma]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

You must be conflating two different Streetcars for TV (I hadn't remembered it was done so many times! there was also one with Laurence Olivier, Robert Wagner, and Natalie Wood). There was one in 1984 with Ann-Margret and Treat Williams -- I remember Ann-Margret being marvelous in that, very much in the evocative Leigh tradition. And another in 1995 with Jessica Lange and Alec Baldwin.

I wonder if you might be conflating two Tennessee Williams' plays. :)  I remember Olivier, Wagner and Wood in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" but not in Streetcar and none of them seem quite right for any of the leads in it.  Unfortunately I remember their "Cat" so well, because as great as Olivier can be he wasn't good at all in it and just made me appreciate Burl Ives' "Big Daddy" all the more. (Olivier's squeaky voice, trying to sound southern, as he said, "Baby" still stays with me to this day---with apologies to Tennessee Wms. for remembering something so completely unimportant about his great play. Bad acting  can be more potent than great writing, unfortunately!)

[Crisopera]

I have to disagree about Vivien Leigh being underrated.  She is indeed sublime in Streetcar, The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone and GWTW, but in other roles she can be mannered and shallow (I particularly think of her irritatingly kittenish Cleopatra in Caesar and Cleopatra - particularly annoying when the perfect casting, Jean Simmons, was there on set).  I find her very, very uneven, but at her best, great.

[Rinaldo]

9 hours ago, Padma said:

I wonder if you might be conflating two Tennessee Williams' plays.

Me too! I now want to go back and erase everything I wrote. OK, scratch my whole Olivier nonsense. It is true, though, that Ann-Margret did the Streetcar with Treat Williams.

[Rinaldo]

With two seldom-shown Miriam Hopkins movies coming up on October 18, here's an appreciation of both of them, and of the actress herself, by Sheila O'Malley, for TCM Diary. (Ms. O'Malley's blog is sometimes interesting for me, because one of the things she especially likes to write about, and does so with some insight, is acting careers often treated dismissively by other writers. She loves to write about Elvis Presley and John Wayne, for instance.)

[Crisopera]

Thanks for the link, Rinaldo.  I never used to be fond of Miriam Hopkins, but came around once I saw her Pre-Codes.  She's amazing!  So brilliant in Trouble in Paradise, Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, and The Smiling Lieutenant ("Jazz up your lingerie!").  That's a nice piece about her.  I'll have to watch those two movies.

[3pwood]

Yes, thank you, Rinaldo.  I've enjoyed everything I've seen Hopkins do but I'm not familiar with Wise Girl, so now I can record it on Oct. 18.  I've seen part of Lady With Red Hair & will record that too, with the extra bonus of Claude Rains as Belasco.  That blog does look interesting -- yet another way to spend (some people say "waste") time on the internet....

[kscoaster]

For those cord-cutters who miss TCM:

www.filmstruck.com

[Milburn Stone]

18 minutes ago, kscoaster said:

For those cord-cutters who miss TCM:

www.filmstruck.com

Maybe it will come without the skip-framing?

[elle]

On 10/4/2016 at 4:09 PM, Jordan Baker said:

Another of my favorite moments from the movie! And the fact that they could sing and even do a bit of dancing shows how versatile they were (as were so many actors back in the day). I mean, when you think Keenan Wynn and James Whitmore, song-and-dance doesn't immediately spring to mind. But they were great.

This is one of my all time favorite movie moments!

Add me to the list of those who love this movie!  It is my favorite Ann Miller movie too.

[David T. Cole]

Y'all been moved from Network to Movies. Deal with it! :)

[mariah23]

Ok, I'll deal with it :)

[Milburn Stone]

Apropos filmstruck, what I'm really hoping for is a TCM portal on my Apple TV. Many of the other premium and unpremium cable channels have one--HBO, Showtime, TBS, IFC, and FX, et. al., have one, as do the four broadcast networks. So if I miss DVR'ing a show on any of these channels, I can stream it through that channel's Apple TV portal. For DirecTV-TCM sufferers, this would be a workaround to sidestep the skip-framing artifacts unique to that combination. Why does this portal not exist already? It can't be because Time-Warner has a beef with Apple, because HBO, TBS, and some others are part of the Time-Warner empire, and they're on Apple TV. 

[kscoaster]

Re: Filmstruck.  They say films will stream in HD where available, so I'm guessing/hoping they won't be going overboard with the type of compression that's been causing the DirectTV woes.

I'm just happy they're providing an stand-alone option that doesn't require a cable subscription.  Once they support Chromecast it'll be perfect (for me at least!)

[Willowsmom]

Ah, Murphy's Romance. Such a sweet little movie.

[Rinaldo]

9 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

Ah, Murphy's Romance. Such a sweet little movie.

I absolutely agree.

But it always gets me thinking about the mystery of how certain careers don't quite "happen" as predicted. In this case we have Brian Kerwin, a good-looking guy and an excellent actor, who had already had major TV exposure (soaps, the second lead on Sheriff Lobo, big parts on movies-of-the-week and miniseries, complete with the requisite features as a "primetime hunk" in the magazines that went in for such things) and had stage cred off and on Broadway. This was to be the movie that launched him on the big screen. And then his movie follow-ups were things like King Kong Lives (yeah, I don't remember it either) and Torch Song Trilogy (a good supporting part, that he had played onstage too). And after that... very sporadic obscure stuff on the big screen, and a return to the stage with occasional TV. I see him occasionally on Broadway (most recently, August: Osage County), and he's as good and magnetic as ever. But the jump to the "next level," commercially speaking, didn't happen for him, just as it doesn't happen for many a good actor who seems on the verge.

[Bastet]

Brian Kerwin had a nice run as Jackie's boyfriend Gary on Roseanne (and played a small role alongside Allison Janney [in The Help], which would be all I'd need out of life if I was an actor, heh).  And also picked up some notice as being one of the few hearing-impaired actors to simply appear on screen with hearing aids that were not remotely part of the character's story line.  But, yes, he's one of the many whose talents never translated to an equivalent level of stardom.  On the other hand, he's one of the few who've managed to parlay his talents into a solid "working actor" career.  I'm always happy to see him on my screen.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Bastet

[bluepiano]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 7:49 AM, Charlie Baker said:

I saw a couple Buster Keaton early talkies yesterday--Free and Easy and Parlor, Bedroom, and Bath. Both have the stagy, stilted quality of early sound movies, but they also have Buster's deadpan and his superb command of physical comedy, along with some snappy dialogue and farcical situations.  So I enjoyed them quite a bit. 

I did too. I only knew Keaton's sound work from a handful of later small parts, not much more than cameos. But those early talkies show that he could carry a sound movie, blending verbal comedy with his trademark slapstick. Funny, his speaking voice was deeper than I expected. (Trivia fact: the villa used in Parlor, Bedroom, and Bath was Keaton's own.)

Edited October 10, 2016 by bluepiano

[bluepiano]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 4:55 PM, Deanie87 said:

 It always amazes me that she so owns two of the most iconic Southern roles of all time.  I really think that she is so underrated.

Hard for me to think of Vivien Leigh as "underrated" when she won the Best Actress Oscar for both of those performances. My favorite performance of hers is when she was quite young, in Sidewalks of London, in which she is very English, not playing an American southerner. It's a wonderful movie, alternately funny and heartbreaking, and Charles Laughton was never better. Which means that he's completely astounding.

 

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 9:23 AM, LuciaMia said:

Loved that Mary Pickford bio TCM had on last night.

I did not know much about Pickford, and found the bio both enlightening and entertaining. She came across as a very real, likeable person. And huge kudos to her for starting The Motion Picture Country Home, and showing generosity and compassion to her less fortunate colleagues. After the documentary I watched her in Little Annie Rooney, where she was very convincing, even as a 33 year old, playing a young slum waif. I could see why she was "America's Sweetheart."

 

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 6:22 AM, Rinaldo said:

Me too! I now want to go back and erase everything I wrote. OK, scratch my whole Olivier nonsense. It is true, though, that Ann-Margret did the Streetcar with Treat Williams.

Wow. Now I want to try to track that down. I'm a big AM fan, but for her musical/comedy work, like  Bye, Bye, Birdie and Viva Las Vegas. Would love to see what she did with one of the all-time big dramatic roles.

Edited October 10, 2016 by bluepiano

[bmoore4026]

Well, tonight on TCM's foreign film showcase is a Japanese horror movie called House, which I first read about on Cracked.com and I want to see for myself how freaky it is.

After that is The Huanting and does anyone know if Julie Harris got nominated for an Oscar for her performance?

At 5 am Central, TCM will be showing a mini-marathon of sword-and-sandal swashbuckling movies.  I'll be asleep by then, though.

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, bluepiano said:

Hard for me to think of Vivien Leigh as "underrated" when she won the Best Actress Oscar for both of those performances.

Elizabeth Taylor also won twice, and people will talk her down as "not a 'real' actress" too. I've encountered the anti-Leigh talk, in print and in person, calling her performances a matter of looks plus innate personality ("charm"), or whatever. Nonsense, but people will talk nonsense sometimes.

[Rinaldo]

I've noticed several items coming up on Saturday that I must see. Two of them, maybe only in part, but they're epic widescreen releases, not "great cinema" but interesting examples of what audiences (me included) flocked to in the past: Around the World in 80 Days and How the West Was Won. And these will surely have all the overture and intermission music heard by first-run audiences (and never again, particularly in commercial-network airings), not to mention AtWi80D's witty animated end credits for all the cameo appearances.

And then two good Deborah Kerr items: The Innocents (i.e., The Turn of the Screw) and The Chalk Garden. Both of them showing her in her stereotypical Deborah Kerr role of teacher/governess to young children (see also The King and I), but who cares, when she's this great. (May I especially recommend Frank Langella's chapter about her in his memoirs -- easily available as an eBook, or even better, I'm told, an audiobook narrated by him.)

[Crisopera]

I saw both of those epics when I lived in London in the 1960s.  HTWWW was first-run, but ATWI80D was a re-release.  I loved both of them greatly, but I'm a bit afraid to revisit them now (I also loved Hello, Dolly! at the time, and now it's a cringeworthy experience.  My childhood taste was not of the most elevated.)

And I was lucky enough to have seen Deborah Kerr on stage in the 1970s, in a play that didn't go to Broadway, "The Day After the Fair."  The play (based on a Thomas Hardy story, sort of a sex-reversed Cyrano, with class issues) was a bore, but Miss Kerr gave a beautiful performance, as she always did.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

Hey, I'll speak up for Hello, Dolly! I and my army buddies, all of us in our 20s, loved it on first release, and my affection remains. I could see its flaws right away -- the pairing of Michael Crawford at his least appealing with the inept Marianne McAndrew make their subplot a snore, Walter Matthau clearly wishes he were somewhere else, director Gene Kelly wasn't giving help where it was needed -- and anyone could tell that Streisand was miscast as to age and type. But it's still Streisand's grandest "star" performance, the other juveniles (Danny Lockin, E.J. Peaker, Tommy Tune) are delightful, and the lavish bigness of the whole production is fun. I'll continue to enjoy it.

[Wiendish Fitch]

I like Hello, Dolly!, warts and all. Hell, I'll take it over the massively overrated My Fair Lady any day. 

Isn't it weird that Michael Crawford could pass for Ray Bolger as a young man, only to age into the most nondescript-looking human being ever? Seriously, I defy anyone to pick the Michael Crawford of today out of a crowd.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Wiendish Fitch

[Rinaldo]

Just his vocal transformation is bewildering enough: from this screechy adolescent whine into a massive pop-opera mock-tenor for Phantom. How'd that happen?

And now that My Fair Lady has been attacked, I feel compelled to leap to its defense as well. Except... I really can't. Or it's not worth the leap, or something. OK, we do have Harrison preserved (if not downright pickled), and the pleasure of Holloway, and I do enjoy Cecil Beaton being given all the money in the world to run wild with period-appropriate costumes. But the picture as a whole, not so much now.

I sometimes amuse myself wondering, could a livelier My Fair Lady movie have been made at that time? With more of the stage pacing, all three of the original stars, some shooting on location, less of the Enbalmed Masterpiece atmosphere... but who would have been a really good director for it at that date? I can't think of a candidate. (Ignoring, of course, the question of what studio would have thrown money at the hottest property then on the market, without proper star insurance.) 

And for anyone interested in how My Fair Lady played onstage, check out this computer modeling of designer Oliver Smith's open-view scene change from the embassy lobby to the ballroom near the end of Act I, using the two revolving stages that held the scenery throughout. I can testify that it was a thrilling moment in that original production, one that Alan Jay Lerner rightly ensured was included, like all other design details, in all touring and foreign productions (which continued for a decade or more).

[Wiendish Fitch]

Hope I didn't offend any My Fair Lady fans; the truth is, I want to like My Fair Lady. It's a gorgeous looking movie, the songs are lover-ly (there, got that obvious joke out of the way), I love Audrey Hepburn, and I love seeing an impossibly young and handsome, pre-Sherlock Holmes Jeremy Brett as Freddie.

But I HATE the ending!!

George Bernard Shaw had the good sense to realize that Henry Higgins is a loathsome pig, because Pygmalion ended with a newly refined and liberated Eliza coming to her senses and leaving Higgins, with no hint of a reconciliation. Lerner and Lowe, on the other hand, actually thought Eliza belonged with a smug, pompous, condescending, irritable jackass like Higgins, had her crawl back to him, and it's framed as romantic and wonderful. Screw that noise, if there'd be any justice, My Fair Lady would have ended with "Without You" (one of the best break-up songs ever, even if it is for naught).

[Rinaldo]

To be fair, Lerner only adopted the ending of the Pygmalion film, created within Shaw's lifetime. (And he diplomatically let it pass, presumably enjoying the movie's success.) And actors and actresses had long been trying to act around the lines to effect some kind of romantic spark, beginning with the original cast.

But you're right, of course. The ending that looked "happy" at the time now seems the opposite. The same fate that has overtaken other superimposed once-happy-now-not endings when the musicals Show Boat and Carousel were created. In fact, compared to those two, the future of Higgins and Eliza together looks relatively benign, as we can imagine it being as feisty as we like.

(By the way, I adore Audrey Hepburn in everything else... but not in this. Too old, too unbelievable as a guttersnipe, and for heaven's sake, in a story obsessed with nuances of dialect, her charmingly idiosyncratic brand of English couldn't be more wrong.)

[Sharpie66]

I saw My Fair Lady on the stage in 1981 with Rex Harrison and with the original Mrs. Higgins from the first Broadway production, Cathleen Nesbitt, not too long before she died. It was a really good production, but the other actors just washed into the background beside those two, which was a shame, especially for Eliza, who is always one of my favorite characters.

The film was always a favorite of mine, but mostly because (a) it was my introduction to the material, and (b) the luscious production design and costumes. Just gorgeous to watch!

Edited October 10, 2016 by Sharpie66

[Crisopera]

Quote

2 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

To be fair, Lerner only adopted the ending of the Pygmalion film, created within Shaw's lifetime. (And he diplomatically let it pass, presumably enjoying the movie's success.)

 

Not to mention the fact that Shaw won an Oscar for the 1938 film.  I'm sure that went some way to reconciling him to the ending.  He never minded a bit of publicity.

It's too bad that Show Boat doesn't use the ending of the book, where the indomitable Magnolia is alone, running the Cotton Blossom.  Edna Ferber is a better writer than people remember, I think.  (The 1936 Show Boat is one of those movies where the lead couple should be in their 40s, and they're made up to look at least 70.  It's still one of my favorites.) 

I did a production of Carousel at the Minnesota Opera in the 1990s (I was Nettie), and the review was taken up with instructing the readers about how awful the book was.  I don't remember it even mentioning the actors who played Billy and Julie!

Edited October 10, 2016 by Crisopera

[Rinaldo]

11 minutes ago, Crisopera said:

Not to mention the fact that Shaw won an Oscar for the 1938 film.  I'm sure that went some way to reconciling him to the ending.  He never minded a bit of publicity.

It's too bad that Show Boat doesn't use the ending of the book, where the indomitable Magnolia is alone, running the Cotton Blossom.  Edna Ferber is a better writer than people remember, I think.  (The 1936 Show Boat is one of those movies where the lead couple should be in their 40s, and they're made up to look at least 70.  It's still one of my favorites.) 

I do get a kick of the Pygmalion movie ending, because you gotta admit the filmmakers were clever about it: hampered by Shaw's contractual requirement that all additional dialogue must be written by him, they got around it by contriving a final scene in which every line is quoted from earlier in the play. So he did write it all, just not in that juxtaposition. 

If someone were creating a Show Boat musical now, for the first time, Ferber's ending would absolutely be the one anyone would choose to dramatize. It's in tune with current sensibilities. But of course it can't be retro-fitted into a romantic semi-operetta like the one Kern and Hammerstein wrote. (Of all the fiddlings and tweakings that different production have done with the end, I'm surprised to find myself liking the MGM choice the best. That one has plenty wrong with it -- including the presence of Her Who Must Not Be Named -- but the denouement is a lot more palatable if Ravenal left before he knew he was going to be a father, if only a few years have passed so Kim is still a little kid, if Julie has a hand in steering him back to the Cotton Blossom so it's not totally coincidental and episodic. Nicely done.)

The characters in Show Boat are a real challenge, on stage or on screen, because they have to age maybe 30 years. Magnolia is especially hard  in this respect because such a point is made of her naiveté and innocence at the start, and her wisdom and experience at the end. The most successful at it in my experience was Rebecca Luker in the 1994 revival, in her 30s at the time but looking about 15 in this scene, a cast reunion in a concert setting.

[Milburn Stone]

The My Fair Lady ending is justified wholly, IMO, by the fact that without that ending, we wouldn't have "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face." That magnificent song--which speaks for so many of us in our relations with our significant others, somehow getting to the very core of longtime relationships--exists in order to help us believe the reconciliation. Which is probably why the ending feels sublime in the musical while feeling (perhaps) less so in the 1938 film.

[ratgirlagogo]

17 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Well, tonight on TCM's foreign film showcase is a Japanese horror movie called House, which I first read about on Cracked.com and I want to see for myself how freaky it is.

Ooooh, so what did you think?  It's hard to get across to someone who hasn't seen it just how odd and wonderful this movie is - utterly unique and one of my favorites.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[bluepiano]

Wendy Hiller's Eliza in the 1938 Pygmalion is one of my all-time favorite performances.

The performance (and believability) of Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady has been much debated in this forum (and other places) but I can't be objective on the subject, because for me Dame Wendy will always be the one and only Eliza.

17 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

After that is The Haunting and does anyone know if Julie Harris got nominated for an Oscar for her performance?

The Haunting is a movie I can't make up my mind up. There is much I admire about it, but at the same time I feel that it's ponderously slow and obtuse. Yes, I know it was intended to be slow and obtuse, but they may have overdone it. (According to IMDB, it got zero Oscar nominations. I'm somewhat surprised that it didn't get any nominations on the technical side, like for cinematography, sound, editing. Maybe it just wasn't popular enough).

In any event, I'm glad this movie is still frequently shown, while the horrendous 1999 remake directed by Jan de Bont has justly faded into obscurity. Besides being a compete thematic violation of everything the original version (and source novel) was about, this was the movie that first signaled to me that CG was going to be a disaster for the art of filmmaking.

Edited October 10, 2016 by bluepiano

[ratgirlagogo]

9 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

 Around the World in 80 Days and How the West Was Won.

I've never liked How the West Was Won but I am apparently one of the few who really loves Around the World in Eighty Days. So many today, at least online, seem almost angry that it won Best Picture.   I know I said at some point (probably on TWOP since I can't find it here) that a great deal of the sentimental pleasure the 1956 audience got from it is lost today on current audiences who have no idea who many of the cameo players are.  It's not just that they are stars from older films - generally of course people are going to recognize Dietrich and Sinatra and some others I guess - it's that most of them are stars from adventure films, Westerns, serials, horror films and slapstick comedies.  Also  it's not that they're all or even mostly B-movie stars, it's that the movies they made that make them belong in this film are not their "serious" films - Ronald Colman for example is here not because he did Tale of Two Cities or Random Harvest but because he played Bulldog Drummond and the Prisoner of Zenda and Raffles and Beau Geste.   How many viewers even on this board would recognize Edmund Lowe and Victor McLaglen as Quirt and Flagg from the What Price Glory series - but for those of us who do it's very moving to see them  together again on the Henrietta.  A lot of the audience would have enjoyed the movie on that level back in 1956 the same way people enjoy The Expendables today.  I always liked it even as a kid before I had seen enough old movies to recognize the cameo players myself - but I enjoy it all the more now as a great big valentine to old adventure movies.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

The My Fair Lady ending is justified wholly, IMO, by the fact that without that ending, we wouldn't have "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face." ... Which is probably why the ending feels sublime in the musical while feeling (perhaps) less so in the 1938 film.

That's one reaction to the ending, but not mine. (And good writers of musicals have tried to refrain from using the possibility of a good song as the sole justification for plot developments. Story and score are supposed to work together.) I don't find the ending of the musical sublime -- but I'll add that I don't find it really bothersome either; I still find My Fair Lady one of the pinnacles of the form.

It's interesting, though, that My Fair Lady doesn't get that many stage productions any more -- Broadway, community, regional, opera companies (even those that slip a musical into the schedule). Certainly not commensurate with its really monster popularity in its first decade or two. I have my own theories about this, but they don't have to do with any issues with the ending. :)

[bmoore4026]

1 hour ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Ooooh, so what did you think?  It's hard to get across to someone who hasn't seen it just how odd and wonderful this movie is - utterly unique and one of my favorites.

Trippy as hell and super colorful.  Kind of reminded me of Suspiria  mixed with Sailor Moon only without the girls transforming into superheroes

Spoiler

and getting consumed by or becoming part of the titular house.

I loved it!  The theme was catchy, too.  Kind of sounded like "Navy Blue" by Diane Renay.

I hope they show some more Japanese horror.  Maybe Ringu?

Edited October 11, 2016 by bmoore4026

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

It's interesting, though, that My Fair Lady doesn't get that many stage productions any more -- Broadway, community, regional, opera companies (even those that slip a musical into the schedule).

That's true, but in the exception-that-proves-the-rule department (whatever that means), Chicago Lyric Opera is doing it as their spring musical this season.

[bluepiano]

6 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

I loved it!  The theme was catchy, too.  Kind of sounded like "Navy Blue" by Diane Renay

Wow. I can't believe someone else remembers that song. The amazing thing about the dispensable pop songs of that era is that you may not have heard them in 30 years, but someone says the title and the entire song, complete with lyrics, pops into your head.

(Apologies for going off topic on the TCM thread).

[Rinaldo]

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Chicago Lyric Opera is doing it as their spring musical this season.

I wonder how it'll go for them. The Chicago company does have a history of hiring in special performers according to cast requirements, rather than trying to slot operatically trained artists into roles that will be problematic for them (MFL has four principals, vocally speaking, and none of them fit the classic voice types, not even Eliza). They'll still be facing the odd sporadic use of the chorus, which makes six appearances, requiring five separate sets of costumes, doesn't sing for two of them, and has quite simple music always. (Lerner has written that this factor was one of the biggest stumbling blocks in his adaption: trying to find a place for a traditional musical-comedy chorus, and finally realizing that he just had to let it be like this.)

[Padma]

18 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

The My Fair Lady ending is justified wholly, IMO, by the fact that without that ending, we wouldn't have "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face." That magnificent song--which speaks for so many of us in our relations with our significant others, somehow getting to the very core of longtime relationships--exists in order to help us believe the reconciliation. Which is probably why the ending feels sublime in the musical while feeling (perhaps) less so in the 1938 film.

I don't really mind the ending that much either, then again, I love that movie, and find it so superior in every way to anything else L&L did. I'm always impressed by how much they actually kept from the play, including a lot of the "spirit" of it. Higgins is such a great character (with Harrison's performance, of course)--the rare brilliant, misanthrope and misogynist and snob who you like and respect anyway. Maybe because I used to teach adult ESL, I like the "myth/fairy tale" part of it, that one's life really CAN be transformed by education--and boost one's social class in the process.

Every time I see the movie I'm so glad they didn't cast Julie Andrews. Audrey Hepburn may not be a hugely convincing flower girl, but that's a small part of the movie and once she begins her lessons, she's perfect. No one could transform more convincingly into a beautiful, smart, confident woman at the end. As for the end? Eh, it's more sexist than Shaw wanted, but if you want to think there will be equality there you can--that Higgins is kind of in a last stage of clinging to his old ways and Eliza is strong enough to be his equal (and smart enough that, being herself and having different understanding of the world she'll make him see, finally, that men and women are equals).  I know Shaw hated the idea that they would marry, or even remain together, so ambiguity is probably about the best "happy ending" Hollywood could compromise with.

And then there are all those great songs! I agree completely about "I've Grown Accustomed..." We always read how much lyricists struggle to say, "I love you" without using the words. That really captures so beautifully that feeling of surprise when you've been taking someone for granted and suddenly they're gone and you realize how important s/he has become to you emotionally.  I even like "On the Street Where You Live" for the same reason. It's not so restrained emotionally like Higgins--which is perfect for the contrast between love when you're young and when you're older--but it's the same idea, that something ordinary and taken for granted can suddenly become special when its associated with someone you love. So great. And the twist that the audience sees Freddy, who has (almost) everything -- wealth, charm, good looks, youth & he adores her -- isn't the one we're rooting for for Eliza.  Under the circumstances, I think the ambiguous ending works very well.

Music...script...acting...costumes...a little bit different kind of main characters, emotions and plot...Just my two cents, but what's not to love?

[voiceover]

As re: Higgins, Eliza, and their filmic "happy ending":

My feelings on that resolution have altered with age & time, as so many things do.  As an undergrad, I spent two semesters digging into Shaw as a writer (English and humanities classes) and a performer (theatrical performances).  One of my professors had just published a multi-volume research series on him, so I had a great resource.  To disagree with.

At 19, even after reading Shaw's addendum to Pygmalion (where he insisted that Eliza and Higgins would never end up together), I wrote pages and pages (yeesh! what a dweeb) arguing point-by-point why they WOULD, and how it was just GBS dicking around with everyone, colored by his wounded masculine pride over Mrs Patrick Campbell's refusal of him in favor of a young stud.

Then, life happened.  And I revisited that essay, decades later.  To paraphrase Mark Twain: Amazing how much the old man had learned in that time.  

Now I see that he was right, and that, no matter the physical/emotional attraction, those two would never have been a couple.  Too huge a gulf divided them.

And, p. s., as far as  My Fair Lady: the Movie goes -- adore Jeremy Brett & Gladys Cooper, and bits and pieces of everyone else's performances, but, ughhhhh regarding the scrubbed -clean studio look of the East End.  (This from a woman who didn't mind the same in The Sting.)  And Rex, who did have his moments (notably at the Ascot & at the end of the film), also shows a bit of long-run-itis in his performance.

[Milburn Stone]

By the way, this is a fantastic book on the creation of My Fair Lady, and the struggles the creative team had, prior to opening, with getting the ending just right.

Loverly: The Life and Times of My Fair Lady, by Dominic McHugh (who has become something of an AJL scholar, having also edited a collection of the man's letters):

https://www.amazon.com/Loverly-Life-Times-Broadway-Legacies/dp/0199827303/

voiceover, regarding whether Higgins and Eliza had too huge a gulf between them to be a couple: My own years have taught me that people who seem surprisingly unlike can form the most devoted of couples.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Milburn Stone