Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[HoodlumSheep]

Didn't Merlin stay behind at Granny's while all the others (except the unseen dwarves, Granny, and the kids) trekked to the Dark One Vault? And Dark Hook was away from Emma a couple times in Camelot.

Edit: Nevermind, you were talking about the DO voices. Um, maybe Merlin has a cone of Silence or something?

If so, and Merlin wanted this to happen, then it really is like Snape and Dumbledore.

There could have been time for them to plan something after he went to fetch water and before emma summoned him.

I just feel like there's more to it with Hook and Merlin. At least, I thought Elliot made it sound like there was a little more to it.

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

- Acting evil in order to push Emma and others away so they won't stop him (just like Emma did to him and the rest).

- Acting evil to get Emma to be willing to kill him once he takes on all the darkness.

- Acting evil to get to the position in which he CAN take on all the darkness.

- Acting evil and doing/saying truly nasty things so that, to him, he will DESERVE death in the end.

 

Yeah--but he is still being shitty and hurtful to Emma. He is not giving her a choice as much as she didn't give him one. He is infantalizing Emma by making decisions for her. How is forcing Emma to kill him a kind thing? I always hated the "he's only pushing you away for your own good" excuse. So, the magic ale session had better be pretty good to explain why Emma is going to the UW to rescue him. 

 

ETA:

 

A&E and Elliot Knight have hinted that he's going to show up in Swan Song.

 

That's good to know.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

Merlin could possibly have been appearing as Clippy!Merlin to Hook, as cheap a twist as that would be if they didn't show it to us in "real" time and instead flashback to it later. I'm very confused because Merlin wasn't dark when he was tethered to Excalibur. It was the tethering that made him dark. Would a possible Clippy!Merlin be on the side of good or evil?

[kili]

Um, maybe Merlin has a cone of Silence or something?

Knowing Merlin, it would work about as well as the one that Get Smart used.

[YaddaYadda]

I love how we are blaming Merlin for Hook turning Dark One real quick as well as killing him. I mean way to go Merlin.

 

I have absolutely no problem blaming Merlin for everything that's happened, from the creation of the original Dark One, up to the creation of the last one. And what is his ass doing concocting the dark curse (that he probably wrote. I mean he wrote the book on how to tether someone to the dagger, and how to snuff out the light)

 

And Arthur standing there at the window going "oh this is very, very, very DARK magic."

 

No shit Sherlock! 

 

Merlin lied, behaved in a very shady way, didn't share the things he knew until it was too late, and he can't even claim that he was worried about changing the future, or destiny, because his ass has tried to do just that when he went to Emma, when she was a little girl, or when he decided that Hook should die because he knew he would become a Dark One. As good as Merlin has been, he is a stupid, stupid man.

 

Merlin had no magic, so I don't know if he would've been able to project himself to Hook.

Edited November 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Watt]

Maybe turning Hook into another DO was Merlin's plan all along, knowing full well Emma would never let Hook die and turning him would be the only way to fix the whole mess. Maybe that was the long con? I can't see why, but you know. Plot reasons.

Maybe because Hook was willing to do something they both knew Emma wouldn't do. Like kill Merlin.

[Hookian]

I agree that we're likely heading for a Snape kills Dumbledore scenario with Killian and Merlin.

 

I think Killian's role in all of this is to kill Nimue, and with her death will come the death of all the other DO's and then he'll either kill himself or he'll tell Emma to kill him. 

 

Then they'll have a scene where they talk via the magical ale and it'll be a final farewell for now because Emma will make it known she's going to save him.

 

The finale will end the same way the S2 finale did, Emma on her way to save her TL's with her family assisting her, opening a portal to the UW.

[InsertWordHere]

Merlin had no magic, so I don't know if he would've been able to project himself to Hook.

Not project himself, but be in Hook's head like the other Dark Ones. Rumple has no magic now and his Dark One self has been clipping it up all over the place. 

 

Hook should have Merlin in his head, more so than Rumple or Nimue. Hook and Merlin were both tethered to Excalibur. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Mathius]

Yeah--but he is still being shitty and hurtful to Emma. He is not giving her a choice as much as she didn't give him one. He is infantalizing Emma by making decisions for her. How is forcing Emma to kill him a kind thing? I always hated the "he's only pushing you away for your own good" excuse. So, the magic ale session had better be pretty good to explain why Emma is going to the UW to rescue him.

 

Hook said as much: "I want to hurt you like you hurt me".  It's the same damn thing Emma did to him: hurting her as part of a plan to save her...except slightly better if it ends up that the death he plans for at the end is his own rather than Zelena's. Forcing Emma to kill him is kinder because it's making Emma owe up to the consequences of putting the darkness into him against his will and then controlling him with Excalibur, rather than have her dodge those consequences by putting the darkness into yet another person and killing them with Excalibur.  Emma would match or surpass Regina on the hypocrite scale if she decided not to rescue him from the Underworld because of all this.  Even if what Hook is doing to her can be considered wrong of him, she is NOT an innocent victim since she did the exact same thing to him first. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

Not project himself, but be in Hook's head like the other Dark Ones. Rumple has no magic now and his Dark One self has been clipping it up all over the place. 

 

Hook should have Merlin in his head, more so than Rumple or Nimue. Hook and Merlin were both tethered to Excalibur. 

No, I agree with this.

 

This is why I think he knew Merlin was prepping the Dark Curse. I don't know that Merlin would've known that he would be in Clippy form if he has no more magic or how much he knew Hook was privy to since he seemed surprised when Hook mentioned the dark curse.

 

I don't even know what Merlin's end game was with this one unless he knew he was a sitting duck. No one will have sacrificed the person they loved for this.

 

ETA - 

 

This is some serious Snape-Dumbledore shit going. Or the whole "you've groomed him to die."

 

We know where Once is getting the ideas from.

Edited November 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Watt]

It's like a weird Buffy meets Harry Potter, for sure. Makes my head hurt.

[mjgchick]

It's like a weird Buffy meets Harry Potter, for sure. Makes my head hurt.

If Star Wars and Buffy had a 3some with Harry Potter and created whatever the hell is going on with Hook and Emma.

[Rumsy4]

Hook said as much: "I want to hurt you like you hurt me". It's the same damn thing Emma did to him: hurting her as part of a plan to save her...except slightly better if it ends up that the death he plans for at the end is his own rather than Zelena's. Forcing Emma to kill him is kinder because it's making Emma owe up to the consequences of putting the darkness into him against his will and then controlling him with Excalibur, rather than have her dodge those consequences by putting the darkness into yet another person and killing them with Excalibur. Emma would match or surpass Regina on the hypocrite scale if she decided not to rescue him from the Underworld because of all this. Even if what Hook is doing to her can be considered wrong of him, she is NOT an innocent victim since she did the exact same thing to him first.

Yeah--I know he is doing it to hurt her. But I'm saying playing a long con doesn't justify it. It's not right to "make" Emma face the consequences of what she did. She overrode his will, but she did it to save him. He is doing this to punish her. All I'm saying is there needs to be a resolution or understanding between them beyond "I did it because you did it to me first" to justify Emma's quest to the UW.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

It's not right to "make" Emma face the consequences of what she did.

What's the alternative? Dark Emma was not going to listen to reason, she was going to force her and Hook's darkness into Zelena and then kill her, without anyone ever learning the full truth behind what happened in Camelot. If Emma is beyond choosing to face up to the consequences herself, then a move like this had to be made.

She overrode his will, but she did it to save him. He is doing this to punish her.

No, he's likely doing this mostly to save her. Does he also want to hurt her? Yes, because he's angry at her and the darkness inside him amplifies that into nasty vengefulness. But it's still likely secondary to his love for her and desire to free her from the darkness.

All I'm saying is there needs to be a resolution or understanding between them beyond "I did it because you did it to me first" to justify Emma's quest to the UW.

No, there needs to be a resolution and understanding between them to justify them getting back together as a couple. There does not need to be ANY justification to Emma's quest to the UW beyond "I forced the darkness into Hook against his will and that ultimately resulted in him going to the UW; even if I don't want him as a boyfriend anymore because he hurt me, I need to rescue him because it's the right thing to do and the way for me to atone for my own sins."

Seriously, your notion that Emma ought to just let him stay in HELL even after sacrificing himself for her all because he hurt her feelings in the process is a disturbing one. Saving him has nothing to do with CS and its status going forward, it has to do with it being right.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[PixiePaws1]

Merlin having the Dark Curse cauldron already on the boil screams 'know what's coming' to me....and Killian doesn't question it at all?? I give Emma a pass on overlooking it due to her emotional state.

I think it is possible that Merlin and Killian may have cooked something up in that getting Nimue & the other DOs corporeal to be knocked off for good but Merlin has suppressed or likely taken the memory before Killian became a DO. Merlin knew he would also be on the ship from Hell and needs to wait for the right moment (whatever plot device!) to restore the memory and Killian completes his task to end the Darkness.

Mind you. .the pain he has caused Emma...only the TLK to end all TLKs can come even close to fixing that mess....in the end i trust the love Killian and Emma have ...even if I don't trust the writers. ...or Merlin...or the Blue Fairy...!

[oliverwendell]

 

Merlin having the Dark Curse cauldron already on the boil screams 'know what's coming' to me.

 

Yeah, if this were another show I'd agree, and believe me, I really want to agree. But there have been so many insane plotholes in this show already that I'm more inclined to think the writers just didn't think that one through. They needed the cauldron to be there, all ready for the last ingredient, because they didn't have time to show Hook making the potion himself. And if anybody ever asks them about it, they'll just say he sneaked in the back and made it after he poofed away from Emma in the field of flowers, and silly old Merlin didn't notice he was standing right next to the Dark Curse when he was leaving his voice mail. 

[LizaD]

 

t's the same damn thing Emma did to him: hurting her as part of a plan to save her...except slightly better if it ends up that the death he plans for at the end is his own rather than Zelena's.

 

Yeah well that makes him a damn hypocrite just like the rest of them. He lashes out at her for doing it but then turns around and do the same? Yeah that's Woegina levels of hypocrisy. And no I don't see how it's better than killing Zelena off. Sorry cold-blooded murder or not, Zelena needs to be taken out because she can and will cause a lot of damage. See tethered Merlin. That's the same sort of morality yardstick that got Snow labeled a cold-blooded murder for killing Cora when Cora needed to be taken out too. Nobody saw Rump killing Pan as bad but going by that morality yardstick it was evil thing for him to do when Rump could've just slapped the anti-magic thing back on Pan. This heroes don't kill bullshit is exactly that, BS. It's only wrong cause Woegina and Rump are still strutting around town. But you know Henry proclaimined them as changed and heroic, even moreso than Emma,  so it must be true. He hasn't slapped that label on Zelena yet.

 

Also I'm with KingofHearts on this one. If it was wrong of Emma to save him the first time cause he wanted to die then it's equally wrong of her to go drag his ass back from the Underworld if he willingly sacrificed himself. What is he going to say? Save me this time cause I changed my mind? He's supposed to be dead and the only reason he's alive now is because of what Emma did. It'd be the exact situation for the Underworld which makes this entire story ridiculous and redundant. Fortunately, those are the 2 things A&E excel at.

Edited November 30, 2015 by LizaD

[Rumsy4]

No, there needs to be a resolution and understanding between them to justify them getting back together as a couple. There does not need to be ANY justification to Emma's quest to the UW beyond "I forced the darkness into Hook against his will and that ultimately resulted in him going to the UW; even if I don't want him as a boyfriend anymore because he hurt me, I need to rescue him because it's the right thing to do and the way for me to atone for my own sins."

Seriously, your notion that Emma ought to just let him stay in HELL even after sacrificing himself for her all because he hurt her feelings in the process is a disturbing one. Saving him has nothing to do with CS and its status going forward, it has to do with it being right.

 

What's disturbing is you putting words in my mouth,. jk. ;-) Clearly, we see things very differently.

 

I'm not going to hold Emma accountable for Hook's bad choices, even if she made bad choices herself. I don't want Emma to go to the UW mainly because she feels partly or fully responsible for what happened. I want there to be some kind of major resolution between them to justify that she is not going against his wishes yet again to save him from "Hell", and that she knows he loves her. Right now he's lashing out against her for not just making him the DO, but also for not trusting in him. Tit for tat was all very well when they were in S2 as opponents, but not when they are a couple, even if he is secretly plotting to destroy the Darkness.  Clearly there are some relationship issues they need to work at, and the start would be an apology from both.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[kili]

Nobody saw Rump killing Pan as bad but going by that morality yardstick it was evil thing for him to do when Rump could've just slapped the anti-magic thing back on Pan.

 

That wouldn't have worked. Pan designed the cuff and it did not have any effect on him. That's why he was able to magically take it off and put it on Rumple. Robbie realy sold that scene. There was no way to stop Pan short of killing him or tricking him across the town line.

 

Other than that, I agree that who deserves to die and who does not is all kinds of messed up on this show.

 

Also I'm with KingofHearts on this one. If it was wrong of Emma to save him the first time cause he wanted to die then it's equally wrong of her to go drag his ass back from the Underworld if he willingly sacrificed himself.

 

I disagree. Hook did not want to be saved at the cost of being a Dark One. He would rather die. He didn't object to being saved, he objected to being saved by being turned into a Dark One. If he sacrifices himself - he isn't doing it because he necessarily wants to die, he's doing it for some greater good (probably to save Emma). Saving him from the Underworld is not the same thing as forcing him to be the Dark One. Now, he may initially want to stay in the Underworld because he emo-ishly thinks he does not deserve to live, but they will easily convince him otherwise (Henry will probably get that job).

[Mathius]

I agree some things will need to be worked on, my main point is that there's a difference between when she should have just let Hook die and now.  Before, there was zero guarantee or confirmation that he would go to the Hell/Tartarus part of the Underworld.  That he will go there now is directly because of Emma putting the darkness into him against his will. THAT is why it's more right for her to go save him now as opposed to saving him when he was dying before, regardless of what their relationship might be afterward. Him dying before didn't involve the certainty that he was getting condemned to a place of eternal torment because of Emma.

 

There was no way to stop Pan short of killing him or tricking him across the town line.

 

Right, and tricking him across had literally a 0% chance of working during the situation: he literally had everyone but Rumple frozen and was ready to kill them all.  If Rumple tried to trick him across the town line, Pan would do what Pan does and reverse the whole thing so that Rumple wound up stepping beyond the line instead.

 

Other than that, I agree that who deserves to die and who does not is all kinds of messed up on this show.

 

The problem isn't about Zelena "deserving to die", it's about Emma having no right to kill her when she's already powerless and in custody.  It's the equivalent of vigilante justice against someone already in jail.  The criminal won't really be missed after they're killed, but it's still wrong of the perpetrator to kill them.

 

GANDALF: "Many who live deserve death. And many who die deserve life. Can you give it to them?"

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[chrisvee]

I think Killian's role in all of this is to kill Nimue, and with her death will come the death of all the other DO's and then he'll either kill himself or he'll tell Emma to kill him.

I totally agree. The expression on his face while Nimue forcechokes Emma is so Darrh Vader conflicted. He'll stab her with Excalibur and that will take out all the DOs. They reminded us that part of Nimue is in every DO.

Then he'll die of his original wound or die like the other DOs.

He may want to hurt Emma but he's not going to let someone else kill her when push comes to shove. He blames Rumple for ruining Emma's life and his own with this dark one nonsense.

I also agree with Mathius that Emma is more justified in bringing Hook back from the UW than in her original action to save him from death because her actions led directly to Hook going to the UW where he will presumably not be having a great time.

Edited November 30, 2015 by chrisvee

[KingOfHearts]

As ridiculous as it sounds, I'm starting to lean toward the "Hook long con" theory simply due to spoilers and writing logic. A&E said nothing is as its seems this season and I don't think that extends just to Emma and Camelot. Hook's harshness is probably over compensating to hide their oh-so-shocking twist. When we were first introduced to Dark Swan, she was portrayed as intimidating and vengeful to keep us off the trail that it was an act. Also take into consideration the lack of details revolving around Hook's train of thought and Nimue's plan. The only information we have is what the writers want us to receive, not necessarily what's really going on.

 

If they're going to the Underworld to save Hook, I'd have to say either Emma is an idiot or Hook redeems himself. My guess is the latter. There are a lot of moral implications, even if Hook's hostility is a ruse, but from a meta standpoint I think the it's intentional. It's not for the story or characters, but to fool the audience so their climax is more surprising. Another example of this method would be Belle and the gauntlet or Emma's revelation about home.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Exactly.  The way the show is being presented, Hook has simply given in and is simply evil.  But this show seldom ever does the obvious direct thing....it does the obvious "surprising" thing; it does the most obvious twist to the presented story that you can think of.  So what's the most obvious twist you can think of for "Hook has simply given in and is simply evil"?  That would be "Surprise! He really isn't!"  And that's the biggest reason why I'm convinced that will happen.

 

I also agree with Mathius that Emma is more justified in bringing Hook back from the UW than in her original action to save him from death because her actions led directly to Hook going to the UW where he will presumably not be having a great time.

 

Not just the UW, the specific region of it that is Hell.  Tartarus is the correct name, but apparently they're going with Hell here (if clippy Rumple is to be believed).  Hook just dying and going to the Underworld would be fine, but not THAT part of the Underworld, especially not when it's Emma's fault that he goes there (because she made him a Dark One, and since Rumple was confirmed to have been in Hell too, it's clear that a heroic sacrifice does not elevate a Dark One after death.)

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

The expression on his face while Nimue forcechokes Emma is so Darrh Vader conflicted. He'll stab her with Excalibur and that will take out all the DOs. 

 

If it takes Nimue choking Emma to make Hook feel conflicted then maybe he doesn't really deserve another chance. He could be standing there doing nothing in order to maintain his cover. But I don't know how I'm going to feel watching it. Context is everything, so hopefully there will be more to the scene than what seems.

 

...Also take into consideration the lack of details revolving around Hook's train of thought and Nimue's plan. The only information we have is what the writers want us to receive, not necessarily what's really going on.

 

... It's not for the story or characters, but to fool the audience so their climax is more surprising. Another example of this method would be Belle and the gauntlet or Emma's revelation about home.

 

This is exactly my main problem with this. If the writers were less focused on delivering "twists", and more interested in organic writing, the show would be so much better. Look what happened to M.N.Shyamalan. 

[LizaD]

 

I disagree. Hook did not want to be saved at the cost of being a Dark One. He would rather die. He didn't object to being saved, he objected to being saved by being turned into a Dark One. I

 

Sorry but that sounds really ridiculous. He's not objecting to being saved, just her methods? The point is there was no other method! I didn't hear him pipe up with another idea. It just sounds petty. I hate you cause it was the only way you could save me but now that there's another way to save me, one that isn't too much for weak little me to handle, feel free to do so? Come on.

 

 

Hook just dying and going to the Underworld would be fine, but not THAT part of the Underworld, especially not when it's Emma's fault that he goes there (because she made him a Dark One

 

Well ok but going with that, it makes her in the RIGHT all along. Because we know of no other way to retrieve a dead person from some other place. So the only way to get him to that specific hell was to turn him into the DO so that they could save him later on from that place, cause it's the only specific place they could open a portal to. That's what we're going with? Really? So the conclusion is still the ONLY way to save Hook was to turn him into the DO. Glad we got that settled.

[Mari]

There's been speculation that if/when Hook is deGooped, the wound on his neck will reopen.  I don't think that's going to be an issue--if only because the writers won't even think about it, and I don't think it necessarily would have, anyway;  that wound was healed when he was joined to the sword.  Since the problem was that Excaliber's wounds don't heal, and it healed, that could easily be over.  (I know Rumple's come-n-go limp, but that's something that had already healed, and the magic was being used to overcome a disability; maybe if Hook dehooked himself, the hand would not be viable when he was degooped.)

 

Say--I know the board seems to be calling imaginary Rumple clippyRumple.  How/when did that start? (Not being cranky, I just can't figure out how we started it and the lack of knowledge is annoying me.)

[getOffMyLawn]

Say--I know the board seems to be calling imaginary Rumple clippyRumple. How/when did that start? (Not being cranky, I just can't figure out how we started it and the lack of knowledge is annoying me.)

 

I didn't get it either but I stumbled upon the answer. It started on Tumblr. There was a post comparing the Rumple in Emma's head to that annoying Microsoft Word paperclip looking assistant (I think his name was 'Clippy') from eons ago that used to pop up when you were using MS Word, but the thing was mostly usless and 1000% annoying, and you generally just wanted him to go the hell away.

Edited December 1, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[KingOfHearts]

 

There was a post comparing the Rumple in Emma's head to that annoying Microsoft Word paperclip looking assistant (I think his name was 'Clippy') from eons ago that used to pop up when you were using MS Word, but the thing was mostly usless and 1000% annoying, and you generally just wanted him to go the hell away.

I definitely see the resemblance.

[oliverwendell]

 

 

Sorry but that sounds really ridiculous. He's not objecting to being saved, just her methods? The point is there was no other method! I didn't hear him pipe up with another idea. It just sounds petty. I hate you cause it was the only way you could save me but now that there's another way to save me, one that isn't too much for weak little me to handle, feel free to do so? Come on.

 

It may sound ridiculous, but I get it. He wanted to be saved from dying from the Excalibur wound -- why wouldn't he? -- but when it became clear the only way for that to happen was for him to become the thing he loathes, the thing he's sure he won't have the strength to control, he decided he'd rather die. Emma turned him into the Dark One anyway, despite his express wishes, so I can understand why he'd be upset. 

But flash forward to our speculative scenario in which he winds up in Hell but is no longer a Dark One, and Emma comes up with a plan that will (1) get him out of Hell and (2) not turn him back into a Dark One, I don't think it would be ridiculous for him to seize that chance, and I don't think it would inconsistent with his earlier position on the whole death/life/Dark One thing. Just my view on it, I get that yours may differ.

[getOffMyLawn]

Emma may have tied Hook to the darkness, but it wasn't because she was bored. She did it to save his life. The other option was him to be dead and he didn't have to become the dark one. Being tied to the darkness didn't automaticlly make him evil. He could've resisted (and he did to start with, but these writers like their twists more than logic, so Hook turned all evil in two seconds flat. That and I don't think the writers have ever heard of a moral event horizon so 5x11 doesn't bode well for Hook's character). Like it or hate it, what it washes down to right now is that Hook lacked the willpower to fight off "the darkness". The "he's got an addiction" reasoning doesn't fly with me because it's not like whiskey, ok. Being addicted to "darkness" means you're addicted to violence and murder. Violence and MURDER, everyone, that's what the writers are talking about here, not SoCo. They're talking about  psychopaths and serial killers. Yikes.

 

It's annoying for me because I was happy with Hook being a hot headed, prone to violence pirate but not totally off the wall evil, and I was satisfied with his redemption arc so far, so I was sort of okay with his relationship with Emma (I liked the Hook swagger and as a character but thought Emma could do better), but now they've turned Hook into a guy who is always one bad day in traffic away from turning around and stabbing everyone in the backseat, and that I'm not down with. Nice job, writers. I didn't know one could assassinate a character in one episode but they did. Writers deserve a Razzie for that.

 

Whether Hook dies by self-sacrifice or Emma kills him because he's gone off the evil deep end is irrelvant (to me) because he's dead as he should've been had Emma not saved his life to begin with and I'm (as of right now) seeing no reasonable excuse to get him back. If he really dies and the gang goes to the underworld to get him back (when he should've been dead to begin with!) I'm going to need something more than "because reasons" from these writers. Because, I want to know why not bring back anyone else that didn't get a nice pleasant death? It's not like people generally get to choose when, where, how and what spiritual condition they are in when they die so what the fuck makes Hook so damn extra-special wank sauce that they have to get him back because he didn't get to "nobly" die the first time? Hmmmm? Why not bring back all those people that deserved better death? The writers will need a really good reason for bringing a dead Hook back that I don't think they'll be able to come up with for my satisfaction.

Edited December 1, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[Mari]

I think some of that is why I have trouble believing that Hook will die-die.

 

To get around the "Why bring back Hook, but not Nealfire, Graham, villagers 1-38,735 that Regina and Rumple killed?"  question, there will probably be a loophole, like he gets sucked through Acathla's portal before he's dead.

[Hookian]

Emma may have tied Hook to the darkness, but it wasn't because she was bored. She did it to save his life. The other option was him to be dead and he didn't have to become the dark one. Being tied to the darkness didn't automaticlly make him evil pants. Like it or hate it, what it washes down to right now is that Hook lacked the willpower to fight off "the darkness".

 

If Hook dies whether by self-sacrifice or Emma kills him because he's gone off the evil deep end is irrelvant because he's dead as he should've been had Emma not tried to save his life to begin with and no reasonable reason exists to get him back. If he really dies and the gang goes to the underworld to get him back (when he should've been dead to begin with!) I'm going to need something more than "because reasons" from these writers. Because I want to know why not bring back anyone else that didn't get a nice pleasant death? It's not like poeple generally get too choose when, where,  how and what spiritual condition they are in when they die so what the fuck makes Hook so damn extra-special wank sauce that they have to get him back because he didn't get to "nobly" die the first time? Hmmmm? Why not bring back all those poeple that deserved better death? The writers will need a reason for bringing Hook back that I don't think they'll be able to come up with.

 

How about the fact that Emma loves this man and wants this man and only this man to be apart of her happy ending. She's fought for everyone's happy endings, and now she's gonna fight to hell and back for her own.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hookian

[kili]

Sorry but that sounds really ridiculous. He's not objecting to being saved, just her methods? The point is there was no other method! I didn't hear him pipe up with another idea. It just sounds petty. I hate you cause it was the only way you could save me but now that there's another way to save me, one that isn't too much for weak little me to handle, feel free to do so? Come on.

How is that ridiculous? People do that in the real world too. People who suffer catastrophic medical issues do not always want to be saved. People tell you they don't want to be saved if they are going to be a vegetable. They'd rather die. But, they are happy to be saved if they are no catastrophic side-effects.  

 

Hook did not want to be an evil Dark One. He wanted to die with dignity and without harming those he loved. He did not want to do terrible things which he knew he could not resist doing. That's entirely different than being okay with being saved with no bad side-effects if he is saved from the Underworld

[getOffMyLawn]

How about the fact that Emma loves this man and wants this man and only this man to be apart of her happy ending. She's fought for everyone's happy endings, and now she's gonna fight to hell and back for her own.

 

I don't disagree that Emma deserves an epic, Hallelujah Choir, singing angels happy ending. No argument from me. It's the only reason I still track this show, that some shit might actually go her way for once. But this is also a story so that should have shit make sense. Logic and reasoning are pesky requirements I tend to use for good stories and not just "wouldn't it be nice" because I'm not a five year old. And dragging back a literally dead man "because reasons" makes no sense to me.

 

ETA

 

To get around the "Why bring back Hook, but not Nealfire, Graham, villagers 1-38,735 that Regina and Rumple killed?"  question, there will probably be a loophole, like he gets sucked through Acathla's portal before he's dead.

That would be my preference as well. That he's not dead, but alive and trapped in a hell dimension. Maybe in an effort to get rid of all those dark ones slouching around the town they conjure some magic and suck all the dark ones into hell portals and Hook gets caught in one, and thus he's alive but trapped in a hell hole -- literally. That I can work with. But them getting someone back from the dead? That's not flying for me.

Edited December 1, 2015 by getOffMyLawn

[shipperx]

It's sort of a weirdly resistant to the plot accusation to say that Hook is 'one bad day' from going evil. That's not the plot in play. In the plot, he chose to die rather than 'go evil'. The plot explicitly states that the Dark One' thing was forced on him (yes, with cause, but it was still against his will). It's like blaming a drunk person for low alcohol tolerance after someone forcibly poured alcohol down his throat.

Sure, the plot is stupid.

And sure, the show's explanations of 'magic' are always ridiculously illogical.

But it is the plot. The plot is saying that it takes much more than a 'bad day'. Being cursed with the idiotic Dark One (against his will) is intended to be quite a bit worse than being out of coffee, losing your car keys, getting caught in a traffic jam and being late for work 'bad day'.

Degrees of scale actually are supposed to matter.

There is an intended degree of scale in saying a dude got forcibly turned into the original source of evil magic for multiple worlds and a 'bad day'. And I say this as someone who always thought that Angel informed Angelus... And yet, except in shipper fights, still love the character.

The point of this story is that these are extraordinary circumstances. Hook didn't choose the curse that's at work here -- which is not to say that he bears NO responsibility for his actions. There's a heck of a lot of ground between inherently evil and utterly innocent victim. Sometimes over simplifying making everything either/or black or white does no one any favors. Yes, the writing sucks but it doesn't suck to the point that there's no sense of scale and no subtlety whatsoever.

So, while I don't think the plot is going to make much sense as this plays out, I do think it's meant to be redeemable Hook.

I'm pretty sure he'll sacrifice himself for the greater good next week. He'll prevent the Dark from winning in the end (I'm guessing). So the only truly awful thing is the death of Merlin...which given all the info Merlin didn't act on that could have forestalled some of this, has to be at least partially on Merlin. Dude could see the freaking future and yet never did anything to change it (or even give anyone a heads up about the train barreling down the tracks! And why the heck was he brewing the darn Dark Curse potion I n the first place? ::headdesk::)

Edited December 1, 2015 by shipperx

[formerlyfreedom]

Topic, please.

 

SPOILERS.

 

[KAOS Agent]

The clock tower is laying in the middle of Moncton Street again. More hell scenes tomorrow. Hopefully, they'll be more interesting than the last time they filmed in Steveston.

Edited December 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Watt]

The only reason I need to bring back Hook is he is damn fine and my viewing experience would be miserable without him. Which is a strong enough reason for me to hand wave the writers inability to write logically.

Is filming back then? I knew Jen was home, I wasn't sure how long their Thanksgiving break was.

[Souris]

They're filming in Steveston on Tuesday.

[getOffMyLawn]

It's sort of a weirdly resistant to the plot accusation to say that Hook is 'one bad day' from going evil. That's not the plot in play. In the plot, he chose to die rather than 'go evil'. The plot explicitly states that the Dark One' thing was forced on him (yes, with cause, but it was still against his will). It's like blaming a drunk person for low alcohol tolerance after someone forcibly poured alcohol down his throat.

Replying in episode thread.

[InsertWordHere]

Any chance we'll be able to see this week's super spoilery ABC Advisory thingy?

 

Yeah, if this were another show I'd agree, and believe me, I really want to agree. But there have been so many insane plotholes in this show already that I'm more inclined to think the writers just didn't think that one through. They needed the cauldron to be there, all ready for the last ingredient, because they didn't have time to show Hook making the potion himself. And if anybody ever asks them about it, they'll just say he sneaked in the back and made it after he poofed away from Emma in the field of flowers, and silly old Merlin didn't notice he was standing right next to the Dark Curse when he was leaving his voice mail. 

But I feel like most of the plot holes aren't this in your face. Merlin said he was making preparations. Hook comes upon him in the diner and only needs to add the heart. It's just so glaring and poorly done if there isn't more meaning to it.

 

To get around the "Why bring back Hook, but not Nealfire, Graham, villagers 1-38,735 that Regina and Rumple killed?"  question, there will probably be a loophole, like he gets sucked through Acathla's portal before he's dead.

Yeah, I think he's going to jump in the portal, body intact. 

[Hookian]

Milah and Cora will be back for Episode 14.

[oliverwendell]

I'm not sure what I think about Milah coming back. On the one hand, her showing up in 5x14 sure makes it sound like it's going to be a Hook-heavy 5B, and I like the sound of that unless he's all Eeeevuuulll still. On the other hand: what shenanigans are you going to try to pull with Milah, writers? Hmmm? It better not be some sort of twisted love triangle between Emma, Hook and Underworld Milah, or I will join the table-flipping brigade.

 

But if it's for a flashback, I'm cool with that, no prob.

[KingOfHearts]

Just when you thought 5x10 was the Milah conclusion...

[KAOS Agent]

Milah is more likely tied in with Rumpel than Hook. Unless they want to make some sort of undead love triangle. Captain Swan is a mess as it is, bringing Milah in and pretending anything is happening there would be a very bad idea. Which means it will happen. And now I hate 5B.

 

Incidentally, does leaving your child with his father while you pursue a happier life qualify you for hell? Because I'm getting a little nervous about how they might be deciding who deserves to go to hell.

[Hookian]

Milah is more likely tied in with Rumpel than Hook. Unless they want to make some sort of undead love triangle. Captain Swan is a mess as it is, bringing Milah in and pretending anything is happening there would be a very bad idea. Which means it will happen. And now I hate 5B.

 

Incidentally, does leaving your child with his father while you pursue a happier life qualify you for hell? Because I'm getting a little nervous about how they might be deciding who deserves to go to hell.

 

Nah it won't happen. We know CS is TL we know they're the couple. Milah coming in won't do anything but show us Hook choosing Emma once again plus I think they should get closure, Hook and Milah.

[oliverwendell]

 

Milah coming in won't do anything but show us Hook choosing Emma once again plus I think they should get closure, Hook and Milah.

 

But what about Emma and Neal? Or did they already get closure? I forget.

 

Also, Hookian, your indefatigable optimism about this show's plans for Emma and Hook always manage to make me feel better. Don't ever stop.

[YaddaYadda]

Milah and Cora being back for the same episode has me wondering if this isn't a Rumple centric.

 

Rumple killed Milah out of spite, and Cora's life was traded in for his. That's sort of the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Rumple. 

 

I would welcome Milah/Hook scenes as well.

[mjgchick]

I hope we get Barbra's Cora and not Jawbreakers Cora.

[CatMack]

Rose McGowan has pretty much quit acting in favor of directing so I have doubts about her ever returning to Once. Especially since in at least one interview I read she said that part of her epiphany was realizing she really doesn't like fantasy that much even though she's acted In a lot of fantasy stuff. I'm perfectly ok with older Cora showing up though, Barbara Hershey is awesome.