Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Hookian]

Emma ending up killing Killian will definitely give us a S2 Finale between Angel and Buffy and then we can all die when Full Of Grace does play.

 

Actually I suspect Killian will be the one that ultimately destroys the darkness for good. 

 

Remember guys we have some spoilers already...

 

We know in the scene with Rumple vs Killian that DO Rumple is present, which means that Killian still has not given in to the Darkness.

 

We know that Hook and Regina are teaming up in present day in 5x11. Which means this Dark Killian probably only lasts one episode since he's working with Regina to save Emma according to A and E.

 

I think Hook is going to take away Emma's darkness, give it all to himself. Then he'll make the ultimate sacrifice and pay the price for both of them and die and be sent to the Underworld. Then Emma will give chase as she will not lose her happy ending.

 

This episode to me also revealed why everyone is going, they definitely owe it to Emma. Especially Regina, for being such a hypocrite. Henry also loves Hook and wants that Swan/Jones family.

[Souris]

Have we seen any behind the scenes photos of what Hook looks like in 5B past the 100th episode?

 

There have been zero pics of Hook from 5B so far. They're being careful to hide him.

[Hookian]

There have been zero pics of Hook from 5B so far. They're being careful to hide him.

And filming all of his stuff indoors and closing the sets if he has to film in Stevenson which is suspected is exactly what they did this Friday.

[HoodlumSheep]

All I know is that Colin's probably having the time of his life trying to stay secretive. The fact that he's going on a mission with Regina in present day also supports that he's not 100% evil. Also, didn't A&E say he and henry have more scenes in 5x10 or 11, which will probably mean it takes place in Camelot. The way they were mentioned didn't particularly sound it was due to nefarious reasons, either. So? What happened in Camelot????

[AmeliaBedelia]

Next ep is Hook's new coat. I'm so excited. But, he needs to find a comb. I don't mind the length of his bangs, but the promo shows that his hair is unwashed and sticking up in all directions.

 

Before last night, I was looking forward to Hook sacrificing himself so that Emma can return to her red leather coat wearing self. But, she's already watched him die twice. I'm cautiously optimistic about his third death scene, but I don't want Emma to appear selfish for wanting to retrieve his soul. In last night's death scene, Hook was begging her to let him go, and Emma couldn't see a future without him. In the next two eps, I want to see the other characters invested in Hook's well-being/sacrifice. Basically, I don't want Emma to be the only one saying "Let's save Hook" and everyone else is like "Okay, we've got nothing else going on at the moment."

[YaddaYadda]

But he didn't die, she tethered his life to the sword. If he had died, I don't think she would've been able to do that, would she?

 

Those two though. They're probably working separately which probably messes up things and lands them with a whole bunch of Dark Ones running around, marking people. 

[KingOfHearts]

Fergus basically confirmed that non-villains will be in the Underworld as well. Multiple levels are still a possibility. I'm wondering if the necro-water will play into getting there.

Next week will definitely mirror 2x04 with Rumple and Hook swordfighting on the Jolly Roger. It will probably be Rumple's test of courage to see if he's willing to fight after all these years.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rosiejuliemom]

Emma ending up killing Killian will definitely give us a S2 Finale between Angel and Buffy and then we can all die when Full Of Grace does play.

 

I will flip a fucking table. Death will occur shortly after when I realize that I didn't remove my laptop from said table and inadvertently killed it.

[InsertWordHere]

I'm not too worried about Hook in Storybrooke. No one besides Emma and maybe Snow and Charming (he got wounded saving Snow) would go to the Underworld to get him if he did something truly heinous. Or I could be wrong and he's the new Regina.

Have we seen any behind the scenes photos of what Hook looks like in 5B past the 100th episode? I'm beginning to wonder if Dark One Killian might actually become the 5B villain. If Hook's dad is anything like Cora, I'm nervous they're going to make Hook do a Season 2 Regina where they make him do a comically 180° turn to villain, and then is prompted to become even more evil by their long-lost parent who just conveniently comes back into the picture, only to be redeemed at the very end of the arc.

This arc is reminding me more of Rumple's in Season 3. Big sacrifice in the mid-season finale and being trapped/captured by the Spring season Big Bad.

 

I don't know if we'll see Killian do many evil things other than getting revenge on Rumple, etc. because that was his main drive for 200 yrs.

It's interesting that he wants to repeat the duel even though him being the DO would basically give him an advantage and be bad form.
 

He's recreating the first attempted duel on the Jolly Roger that Rumple walked away from. Rumple did the same after he got his DO powers.

 

Honestly, I think the promo writers are doing their usual "evil pirate" thing, like they did when he was first introduced as "worse than Rumplestiltskin" (even if that is technically true right now). All he does in the promo is say something mean to Emma and try to get Rumple to duel with him. The only magic we see him using is catching Merida's arrow, which Regina has done as a good guy. But I think he did become really bad in Camelot and he's the one who went after Merlin. 

[sharky]

Reaching here, I know, but I think this also confirms that Emilie's pregnancy won't be written into the show. We have the spoilers that Rumple drives them to the town line, correct? It would seem logical that if Hook has gone dark, his first targets are going to be Gold and Belle. We know Gold survives the sword fight because we have photos of Robert shooting scenes afterward. So perhaps whatever is going on, Gold felt it was important to get Belle out of there, which would be a logical way to write Emilie off until she has her baby.

 

Also, from a pre-episode spoiler column on EW:

A surprising face will provide Hook with his lost memories from Camelot, but he’ll discover that it’s not Emma he should be mad at.

 

So we know the surprising face is Zelena, but who is the person that isn't Emma? I'm assuming that's going to be revealed next week. So does that mean Hook is mad at Emma and then finds out who he should really be mad at, or is Hook pretending to be mad at Emma for some reason? Like to protect her when he sacrifices himself for both of them or because he now remembers everything about Camelot and will realize who really betrayed him?

[mjgchick]

Is the person who betrayed him his father? Liam? Milan? His mom? Who else would Hook feel that a betrayed him other than Henry and Emma who he's already angry at?

[RadioGirl27]

I'm pretty sure it's Merlin, because he knew that Killian taking the darkness was needed to destroy it, and he let all this happen.

Edited November 16, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[chrisvee]

Emma's plan with Zelena seemed to confirm that the only way to get rid of the darkness is to put it in a person and then kill them with the sword -- and voila! No new DO. But a sacrifice is required.

I think the best we can hope for is that Hook cuts the darkness out of Emma and then kills himself.

Either way, A&E have certainly taken a good shot at destroying the Captain Swan ship. Hard to root for these two now -- they are worse than Rumbelle. I wonder if that was their intention or if they think they can recover from this?

I agree with the observation unthread about how you have to be careful how dark you take even beloved characters. I'm not sure Killian forgives Emma for this.

[Serena]

Unless she means he should be mad at Arthur, because he's the one who "killed" him? 
 
But it's probably what RadioGirl27 said - Merlin knew all along, didn't warn anyone, and when DO!Killian in Camelot finds out, he goes after him (cue the voicemail).
 

Either way, A&E have certainly taken a good shot at destroying the Captain Swan ship. Hard to root for these two now -- they are worse than Rumbelle. I wonder if that was their intention or if they think they can recover from this?

What have they done that's worse than Rumbelle yet? Hook said a few mean things and Emma tethered him to the sword to save his life.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Serena

[Souris]

I agree with the observation unthread about how you have to be careful how dark you take even beloved characters. I'm not sure Killian forgives Emma for this.

 

Of course he will. It's TS, TW. Everybody forgives everybody everything.

[Dianthus]

I was thinking with the fight on the Jolly, what if DO Killy's in DO Rumple's role, Rumple is in Killy's role, and Belle is Milah? Only Belle manages to talk DO Killy down, since she's the one who saved him from DO Rumple in 4x11? She was always giving DO Rumple the "man behind the beast" blather. She's actually known pre-DO Killian and forgiven him for what he did to her. Wouldn't she say the same to him?

[InsertWordHere]

I'm pretty sure it's Merlin, because he knew that Killian taking the darkness was needed to destroy it, and he let all this happen.

I think he definitely let this happen. He just stared at Emma and Hook when they were on the floor of the diner. I was thinking "Are you a wizard or not?" when he just stood there and didn't do anything. He wanted this to happen and this is what his unique relationship with Hook will be about because Hook will know. If Hook has a clippy Rumple, I don't think he will also have a clippy Merlin, because they come from different lines of darkness, but I could be wrong. Maybe the sword being together incorporates everyone who has ever been bound to either half of it.  

[kili]

A surprising face will provide Hook with his lost memories from Camelot, but he’ll discover that it’s not Emma he should be mad at.

 

 

It should be Merlin that he is mad at. You think he could mention a few details like "don't get scratched by the sword or you are toast" or "hide my spell books because I notice Arthur has gotten really good and finding spells that could cause trouble.

 

Rumple gives Hook a knowing look when Hook slides him the sword. Is he accepting his fate or does he have a plan with Hook? Because, he has to know he is going to lose if Hook insists on winning.

[Rumsy4]

The fact that he's going on a mission with Regina in present day also supports that he's not 100% evil.

 

Are we sure it is a present-day team up? 

So we know the surprising face is Zelena, but who is the person that isn't Emma? I'm assuming that's going to be revealed next week. So does that mean Hook is mad at Emma and then finds out who he should really be mad at, or is Hook pretending to be mad at Emma for some reason? Like to protect her when he sacrifices himself for both of them or because he now remembers everything about Camelot and will realize who really betrayed him?

 

I think it was just clumsy wording to hide the fact that Emma did what she did to save his life. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Souris]

I was thinking with the fight on the Jolly, what if DO Killy's in DO Rumple's role, Rumple is in Killy's role, and Belle is Milah? Only Belle manages to talk DO Killy down, since she's the one who saved him from DO Rumple in 4x11? She was always giving DO Rumple the "man behind the beast" blather. She's actually known pre-DO Killian and forgiven him for what he did to her. Wouldn't she say the same to him?

 

Emilie didn't film with them during the fight, though.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Emilie didn't film with them during the fight, though.

I don't think she's needed if the scene they're trying to parallel is the first scene where Hook challenges Rumple to fight. Milah was not in that one. She was only mentioned. Maybe Hook is threatening to kill Belle like Rumple killed Milah? I don't know.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Damn. Missing out on another great opportunity then. Big surprise. I do think DO Killy will stop himself somehow, 'cuz we know Rumple comes out ok.

[regularlyleaded]

I agree with the observation unthread about how you have to be careful how dark you take even beloved characters. I'm not sure Killian forgives Emma for this.

Of course he will. It's TS, TW. Everybody forgives everybody everything.

Taking my response back to the "Birth" episode thread.

[Serena]

I think it was just clumsy wording to hide the fact that Emma did what she did to save his life.

I assumed that as well, but then I re-read the post-episode article by NA, and she writes this:

 

And with Zelena (Rebecca Mader) pointing out that there’s more to be revealed as to what happened in Camelot, Hook may soon discover there is someone else to blame for their current predicament — as teased in this week’s Spoiler Room.

So yeah, she means someone else does something. Merlin would be logical, but if they want to explain why Emma was pissed at Regina and Snowing in the premiere, it could be them.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it's Merlin too. I mean this guy has kept so much from them, and he is selective with what he tells them. If I didn't know any better, I'd think that he not only knew what was about to happen, but was hoping Emma would Hook go.

 

Plus, what about the warning about Excalibur, and Emma leaving it alone? Is it because ultimately it ends up unleashing a whole bunch of Dark Ones who can do whatever they please? Emma's idea in "theory" is a good one. Find a vessel, put the darkness in it, and kill it with the sword. 

 

We know the sword gets broken again.

[Rumsy4]

I assumed that as well, but then I re-read the post-episode article by NA, and she writes this:

So yeah, she means someone else does something. Merlin would be logical, but if they want to explain why Emma was pissed at Regina and Snowing in the premiere, it could be them.

Oh... good catch. I didn't read the article thoroughly enough. I think Arthur is another candidate. After all, they have him muahahaing all over the place. Snowing/Regina may end up doing something stupid that lets Arthur gain the upper hand again. Maybe he gets hold of Excalibur again, and Emma drives the sword back into the stone to keep him from using it against Hook. Hence the Dark Curse so Emma can get blank-slate Gold to pull it out in Storybrooke.

[shipperx]

You become a dark one by killing a dark one, maybe Killian wants Rumps to kill him so that Emma can complete her plan. In that way he gets 'revenge' in Rumps and 'freed' Emma. It's a screwed up darkish plan but until proven otherwise I'm thinking Hook is greige.

Edited November 16, 2015 by shipperx

[KateJones]

i said almost the same thing this morning in the ep thread! I can't take watching him die again, much less watching him die moments too late after he reverts back to himself.

Emma ending up killing Killian will definitely give us a S2 Finale between Angel and Buffy and then we can all die when Full Of Grace does play.

Edited November 16, 2015 by KateJones

[Babs Gordon]

i said almost the same thing this morning in the ep thread! I can't take watching him die again, much less watching him die moments too late after he reverts back to himself.

 

 

 

 

Oh god that completely wrecked my summer when that happened on BtVS. My 12 year old self was not prepared to get my heart ripped out... This is going to be a super rough hiatus if it happens to Captain Swan. 

 

On another note, does anyone know when they usually release an episode press release/promotional photos when there's a 2 week break in between episodes? Will they release them this week or will we have to wait until next week? 

[sharky]

So I went back and watched Merlin's voice mail (start on YouTube here). He does say "Dark One" but then later on says, "The Dark One's found me," which could also be "The Dark Ones found me," depending on your punctuation. And of course, he says Dark One and not Emma, so that could also be a tip off. And yes, that then means that when Hook says, "What did Emma do to him?" the real question he should've asked may have been "What did I do to him?" Frankly, Merlin is totally shady ass as all hell. He deserves Hook's wrath for everything that happened.

[HoodlumSheep]

Thinking about something from the Continuity thread: if Hook turns mortal again, wouldn't the never-heal wound comeback? or would it somehow magically heal (for reasons never explained). Maybe that's another twist. We're all talking about him dying from getting snuffed out by excalibur, but maybe he dies from the old wound after the darkness/immortality is skewered.

Yes?No? I don't know what that'd mean for him going to the Underworld and Emma saving him, but maybe being sliced by excalibur has a random loop hole.

Edited November 16, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes?No? I don't know what that'd mean for him going to the Underworld and Emma saving him, but maybe being sliced by excalibur has a random loop hole.

My guess is that Hook dies, but Merida's necro-water launches the quest to UW to retrieve his soul. There might be a loophole involving his immortality that leaves his dead-or-alive status up in the air. Since Emma and Hook have both become partakers of the Holy Grail, they are immortal regardless of the darkness. Since I doubt A&E are going to leave them both immortal, I think the UW comes in to fix that somehow.  

 

In 3x12, we see all those people in cloaks in Storybrooke. Is it normal Storybrooke, or Underbrooke?

 

Edit: Okay now I'm confused. Rumple became mortal (supposedly) after losing the DO powers. So I guess removing the darkness does remove the immortality... but what about Merlin? Did they remove his darkness when Hook took it on? So is he like Rumple now?

Edited November 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

I think Emma will lose her immortality when the Darkness is destroyed OR Hook takes the darkness from her. Probably Hook will too, although they could caveat somehow. And getting out of the Underworld will have a "one time only" rider.

 

The people in cloaks is for 5x11, the midseason finale.

[InsertWordHere]

Did Emma leave the dagger in the diner? I think the thing Regina did in Camelot is that she tried to use the dagger to order Emma to kill Hook.

[YaddaYadda]

Did Emma leave the dagger in the diner? I think the thing Regina did in Camelot is that she tried to use the dagger to order Emma to kill Hook.

 

No, she had both the dagger and the sword in the grass next to her.

[Serena]

But what would convince the group to go retrieve Hook if getting someone back being dead has never been done (supposedly) and it seems like the moral of the latest episode was "Emma should have let Hook die"? What changes it from "Don't mess with death/let him go" to "Let's just take a trip to the Underworld, yes 13 year old Henry should come too, and retrieve Hook."?

[InsertWordHere]

Maybe they don't go there for him. Maybe Emma contacts Hook with the beer communication thingy to say a last goodbye and he tells her there's some sort of uprising in the Underworlds and if they don't come sort it out all hell's going to break loose. Oh and if they could come get him, that would be great too because he's trapped down there with that bloody demon and Cora who keeps telling him she has plenty of time for his pretty face now. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[YaddaYadda]

if they don't come sort it out all hell's going to break loose.

 

lol

 

I wonder how the writers will solve the death riddle on this one. I'm not even concerned about the other stuff as much as I'm wondering how they will find their way out of the paper bag.

[kili]

What changes it from "Don't mess with death/let him go" to "Let's just take a trip to the Underworld, yes 13 year old Henry should come too, and retrieve Hook."?

 

I'm beginning to think that they don't have a choice. That they all got sucked into the Underworld and that's what the marking did. While there, they may happen upon Hook and somehow save him.

 

I just don't see how they can go from being content to let a heroic Hook die (the guy just saved everybody and got mortally stabbed for his trouble) to wanting to go to the Underworld to save some Dark Monster.   I think they would be far more likely to set up Emma with counselling sessions then traipsing through the Underworld looking for a villain. If Neil didn't get them to do that (Snowing named their son after him), why would the guy they can't even be bothered talking to most of the time and who turned evil inspire them to go to the Underworld?

 

They have to be there already.

 

My son is convinced the wineskin to talk to your dead loved ones just gets you really, really drunk so you think you are talking to your loved ones.

Edited November 16, 2015 by kili

[Serena]

Regina in 512 says, according to fans on set, "I agreed to get your pirate and get the hell out of here!" (I checked in our Spoiler Only thread and it's there! Page 9) so they DO go there for him and they go on purpose (hence "agreed", not "was forced").

Edited November 16, 2015 by Serena

[PixiePaws1]

i do think DO Killian cast the curse to get back to SB to get revenge on Rumple and Emma hijacked it with the memory wipe for obvious reasons. I do think we are going to be shown Dark Killian as doing something bad in Camelot and that his actions on revenge in SB are meant to mirror what he did in Camlot (like going after Merlin) but in SB he will do what he couldn't find it in himself to do in Camelot and turn away from the Darkness. I am hoping that once he remembers what he realized once before...that revenge is an end to his humanity...he manages to control his darkness.

Maybe what Merlin said about one day someone could hold the light and dark is meant to be Killian (that's his 'out' of the UW) ...but he has to go through birth and death of a DO (of sorts) before he is truly balanced within self first. ..rubbish??? I just think Merlin wouldn't have brought it up with Emma (so people watching think it would ultimately be her) if it wasn't going to happen.

Killian will be redeemed and saved...i have no doubt about that whatsoever. ..unless Colin is suddenly announced to be leaving. He is Emma"s big romantic love ...even these writers know they can't push into another one if she lost Killian for good. They have done a good job of practically murdering CS but Killian will forgive Emma.

[chrisvee]

What have they done that's worse than Rumbelle yet? Hook said a few mean things and Emma tethered him to the sword to save his life.

IMO, Emma putting the darkness in Killian against his will was worse than anything Rumple has done to Belle.

We'll have to see what Killian does in return; I hope the speculation about him facilitating the arrival of the DOs and the marking of SBers isn't true.

Any bad act that Killian performs while the DO is going to be tragic given how hard he's fought for a true redemption.

Edited November 16, 2015 by chrisvee

[Rumsy4]

IMO, Emma putting the darkness in Killian against his will was worse than anything Rumple has done to Belle.

 

But how? It was misguided and she went against his express wishes, but she did it to save his life. Rumple has taken away Belle's agency multiple times so he could hide his dark deeds from her, manipulate her, and keep her in a relationship with him without her consent. 

 

I read a theory that Dark Hook wants Rumple to kill him. Since Excalibur is not tethered to anyone, it won't make Rumple a Dark One again, but this way, Killian will die carrying the Darkness with him. He is working on his own because he knows Emma would never agree to it.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

What changes it from "Don't mess with death/let him go" to "Let's just take a trip to the Underworld, yes 13 year old Henry should come too, and retrieve Hook."?

Emma and Henry are the only ones that care for Hook. It made no sense for the rest to go to the UW to get him before and it makes even less sense now. At least they are taking only the 13 years old and leaving at home the two babies and Roland.

 

This Dark Hook storyline is a complete mess and there is no way these writers are going to give it a proper resolution. I just hope they don't destroy Hook completely (ha, who am I kidding? Of course they would).

[chrisvee]

But how? It was misguided and she went against his express wishes, but she did it to save his life. Rumple has taken away Belle's agency multiple times so he could hide his dark deeds from her, manipulate her, and keep her in a relationship with him without her consent.

He didn't want to be saved if the price was his soul. She put darkness in his soul against his will. As far as we're aware, no Dark One has ever resisted the lure of the dark side; the very act itself turned Emma fully dark. She also created a situation where he can't be controlled by the Dagger so there are no reasonable limits in his power other than Excalibur -- of which he has possession in SB.

[PixiePaws1]

I wonder if Nimue is the one Killian should be mad at? She was revenge driven...easy to prey on his mind in Camelot while he deals with the horror of becoming a DO. Nimue wants Merlim dead. Did anyone with better eyesight than get a good look inside the snow globe cos it looked like a figure or a dead tree to me.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if Nimue is the one Killian should be mad at? She was revenge driven...easy to prey on his mind in Camelot while he deals with the horror of becoming a DO. Nimue wants Merlim dead. Did anyone with better eyesight than get a good look inside the snow globe cos it looked like a figure or a dead tree to me.

 

the more I think about it, the more I think Nimue got herself out of that situation.

 

Rumple is walking around alive, and without any magic. But his crocodile self is very much present, so that same couple apply to Nimue, that she might've managed to free herself from the darkness after a while, lived a normal life, but Dark!Nimue still exists because she was a Dark One, and she lives one with every Dark One ever.

 

Maybe that's where that magical ale comes into play. Maybe they communicate with her in the underworld to figure out what she's done.

[kili]

I wonder if Nimue is the one Killian should be mad at? She was revenge driven...easy to prey on his mind in Camelot while he deals with the horror of becoming a DO.

 

I'll call Calvinball if Nimue has any influence on Dark Killlian in Camelot. The darkness associated with the dagger carries the dark one on from one host to another. So, Emma can access Rumple and Nimue because their darkness is collected inside her. Hook's darkness comes from Merlin who does not have any darkness from Nimue inside of him. It's like Darkness DNA. The Darkness has the Grail as a common source, but the darkness tree split at Nimue and Merlin. Now, it may be that forging the sword and dagger into one will cause the tethered darkness to combine, but if the dagger and the sword remain in pieces in Camelot, hoiw can a non-corproal Nimue talk to Dark Killian?

 

Unless there is a Dark One party line and then Merlin should have been chatting with the Imps and Nimue too. Maybe Merlin could have calmed Nimue down if he did anything other than being completely useless.

[HoodlumSheep]

Young Snow is returning? Cool.

[Hookian]

Of course they're gonna go save Killian from the UW and it doesn't matter what reason they give for it. Unlike the other deaths Emma refuses to let him go because they're TL.

 

I personally think they're going because they owe it to Emma whom has always fought for their happy endings to help her bring hers back.