Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[lemotomato]

Luckily they like their demos over their actual viewership.

That's almost always true with networks. There have been plenty of shows that had decent viewership numbers but got cancelled anyway because their demos sucked.

 

I actually read it as two separate things. 1. Thanks to WWE fans. 2. Notacoincidence - because it was a great episode. I don't know, I'm happy for their numbers because, while not perfect, it was a strong season premiere.

I'm thrilled that they got good numbers too. I'd much rather argue about why the show got better ratings than wonder what to blame for a drop. I interpreted the tweet as him giving all the credit for the bump to his new found WWE audience, which I thought was a little silly. 

 

I was also annoyed at a comment SA made during his live session last night in response to someone posting "If Felicity dies, we riot"--  he kind of laughed it off and said that character deaths don't affect ratings/viewership, using Game of Thrones as an example. Now, I like Arrow, but he needs to check his ego for a second, because Arrow is no GoT. And if he thinks the show can kill Felicity and not suffer a dip/backlash, whether it's reflected in ratings, online buzz, or other audience engagement metrics, he's got another thing coming. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by lemotomato

[kismet]

ARROW is a good show. But its not a BUZZworthy show. It's not a watercooler show. It's ratings are what they are because they have a loyal audience that enjoy the characters and the stories it brings. Change up that formula too much and get rid of fav characters, the show will suffer 4+ seasons in.

 

Tommy died in s1 before the audience could really get attached (anymore than it already was). Moira died in s2 and it hurt, but it was organic to the story. S3 was a mess, I'm not sure if SL death impacted the ratings long-term. But she generated enough waves to be brought back to life for a spin-off. By s4, people are invested in the show enough to have deaths impact their decision to watch the show. GoT can kill off characters because they have an abundance of storylines & characters. It's also a binge show. It asks for people to tune in for 10hrs not 23hrs. Plus its written & produced on a Cable budget, so that makes a difference in writing, acting & production value. I love ARROW, but it is no GoT.

[calliope1975]

I was also annoyed at a comment SA made during his live session last night in response to someone posting "If Felicity dies, we riot"--  he kind of laughed it off and said that character deaths don't affect ratings, using Game of Thrones as an example. Now, I like Arrow, but he needs to check his ego for a second, because Arrow is no GoT. 

 

I legit lol'd when he brought up GOT. While I can't say if the ratings would spike downward if Felicity is killed off - I only know I'd be out - Arrow is not remotely in the same league as GOT. A show which I also almost quit last year, but GOT had the saving grace of having so many different plots going at the same time with, what, five times as many characters that I usually managed to find something worthwhile in each episode. 

 

I get what he was trying to say, but I don't know that he is correct in his assumption. But hey, if they really want to gamble on their show, be an epic bold gamechanger, kill off Felicity and let's see what happens. 

[BkWurm1]

I heard about his remark and it bugged me until I remembered how much SA likes pretending anything can happen on the show like Oliver staying dead. Sounds to me like perhaps he's playing the hype game.

[apinknightmare]

Plus, it's a running joke that everyone on Game of Thrones dies. People go into it knowing that anyone is on the chopping block. I'm not really interested in that-makes it difficult to get super invested in anyone. I don't want Arrow to be like that (they don't have the cast size for it anyway).

Edited October 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

The emmys sorta ruined who may die for me on GoT since I watch when DVDs come up, but I still watch it cuz 1. They tell a good story 2. They replace the dead story arc/character with an interesting different story arc/character. Arrow hasn't done that as well. You feel the void of TM, MQ, and SL.

So yeah when the Arrow cast, stories and budget can keep up with GoT then we can start holding them to we can kill anyone GoT won't hurt our favorability or ratings standards. As of now though, Arrow is heavily dependent on a few characters and story arcs. Losing them would require significant changes to the show.

Edited October 9, 2015 by kismet

[tv echo]

I'm sick of TV shows trying to outdo each other with *shocking* major character deaths and justifying it as being "realistic".  Not much about TV dramas is realistic.  I miss the days when I could sit down to watch my favorite TV shows without dread - where even though I might be in for a tumultuous ride, at the end of the day, I knew the regular cast members would be safe.

 

If TPTB are stupid enough to kill off Felicity, they'd lose not only a significant fandom but also a source of free marketing for the show and the network. Forget about Arrow being in contention for major online TV polls and contests.  Forget about fan-generated weekly twitter trends. Forget about fan-organized movements to contact media sites for interviews and news reports.  And ratings would likely drop not only for Arrow but also for other GB/AK/MG productions because the pissed-off fans could be angry enough to boycott their other shows and projects wherever aired, and maybe even all CWTV shows.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Edited October 10, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

I was also annoyed at a comment SA made during his live session last night in response to someone posting "If Felicity dies, we riot"-- he kind of laughed it off and said that character deaths don't affect ratings/viewership, using Game of Thrones as an example.

While the GoT reference makes me shake my head because no, Arrow isn't even close to GoT, hell it's not even The Walking Dead (which, while entertaining struggles with storytelling, IMO). Having said that, I would normally agree with him it's rare for character deaths to have a long-term/dangerous effect on a show. Of course, that was before I saw the S6 premiere ratings for The Vampire Diaries...

Granted there are huge differences between the 2 shows, Arrow is not built around a love triangle and ships so in theory killing Felicity and Olicity shouldn't have that kind of effect but, you never know. On the bright side IF MG/WM/GB actually planned to kill Felicity off I'm pretty sure The CW wouldn't let them, especially after seeing their Thursday night's ratings.

However, I don't actually think. Felicity is even remotely a possibility anyway

Edited October 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[quarks]

Assuming it happens, and I think that's a big assumption, Felicity dying on Arrow might impact Arrow's numbers. But I don't know if it will affect anything else - a fairly significant portion of the Flash viewership isn't even watching Arrow, for instance, The Mysteries of Laura is aimed at a completely different audience (I assume there's some crossover, but I have no idea how much), and Supergirl and Legends aren't even out yet.  Pan is getting bombed by critics, but I don't think that has much if anything to do with Arrow or Flash.

[Morrigan2575]

Pan?

[quarks]

Berlanti's most recent entry into the film world - he, Sarah Schechter, and Paul Webster are all listed as producers. Joe Wright is the director. The film is getting pounded by critics.

 

To bring this back to Arrow, and to clarify the point: my own belief is that killing off Felicity would have a negative effect on Arrow's ratings.  I'm just not sure that it would affect anything else that Berlanti is doing. Maybe, maybe not.

[Sunshine]

Pan?

What Quarks said

Edited October 10, 2015 by Sunshine

[Morrigan2575]

Berlanti's most recent entry into the film world - he, Sarah Schechter, and Paul Webster are all listed as producers. Joe Wright is the director. The film is getting pounded by critics.

 

To bring this back to Arrow, and to clarify the point: my own belief is that killing off Felicity would have a negative effect on Arrow's ratings.  I'm just not sure that it would affect anything else that Berlanti is doing. Maybe, maybe not.

Ah, thanks. I had no idea Berlanti's company was involved in that movie. I checked IMDb and didn't see him listed but that was only under writers/director. I should have checked production.

[Starfish35]

I'm sick of TV shows trying to outdo each other with *shocking* major character deaths and justifying it as being "realistic".  Not much about TV dramas is realistic.  I miss the days when I could sit down to watch my favorite TV shows without dread - where even though I might be in for a tumultuous ride, at the end of the day, I knew the regular cast members would be safe.

 

I agree with this.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm sick of TV shows trying to outdo each other with *shocking* major character deaths and justifying it as being "realistic". Not much about TV dramas is realistic. I miss the days when I could sit down to watch my favorite TV shows without dread - where even though I might be in for a tumultuous ride, at the end of the day, I knew the regular cast members would be safe.

If TPTB are stupid enough to kill off Felicity, they'd lose not only a significant fandom but also a source of free marketing for the show and the network. Forget about Arrow being in contention for major online TV polls and contests. Forget about fan-generated weekly twitter trends. Forget about fan-organized movements to contact media sites for interviews and news reports. And ratings would likely drop not only for Arrow but also for other GB/AK/MG productions because the pissed-off fans could be angry enough to boycott their other shows and projects wherever aired, and maybe even all CWTV shows. Of course, I could be wrong.

I think you are giving them way to much power. They aren't the backbone of theCW. If Greys Anatomy can kill off their biggest charecter who isn't Grey and lose majority of its original cast and manage to stay a float, Arrow would most likely be able to do the same IF the writers were good enough to give us an interesting show. The day shippers control tv it would be a sad day imo.

But i doubt any of us having to worry about our faves being killed.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Chaser]

It all depends on the show and the demographic.

 

Several successful shows have off'd fan favorites and been fine in the long run. GOT, Grey's Anatomy, ER, etc. Those shows are more able to adapt to cast changes because they are true ensemble shows. I wouldn't put Arrow with them.

 

On a smaller network like The CW, which I think relies on a passionate fanbase for it's shows, has less leway with the viewers. They benefit from a lot of free marketing from sections of the fandom. This is a business. Money talks. It wouldn't be allowing 'shippers' to run the show by taking into consideration what support the network recieves from them. It would be smart.   

 

I'm curious how they are looking at TVD fall in ratings. The show has been on the decline for years, both in ratings and quality. Plus the loss of Nina and the borderline disrepect of some of the actors on the show, which is entertaining but probably not that smart when they need to rebrand after the meat leaves.

[NumberCruncher]

Might not affect ratings in the short term, but I completely agree that losing all the free advertising the Olicity shippers generate probably is the equivalent of shooting themselves in ths foot. Lose that and The CW would have to actually open their wallets and promote the show for realsies.

[AyChihuahua]

I have a very hard time believing it wouldn't affect ratings. The episode after Sara died was one of the lowest-rated episodes ever, and that was for a secondary character. I think ratings would plummet and remain down.

[Edited by mod. I get that this is the Ratings thread, but please don't post about the views of Olicity shippers in general.]

I am really sure TPTB over Guggie would not allow it.

I was also annoyed at a comment SA made during his live session last night in response to someone posting "If Felicity dies, we riot"-- he kind of laughed it off and said that character deaths don't affect ratings/viewership, using Game of Thrones as an example. Now, I like Arrow, but he needs to check his ego for a second, because Arrow is no GoT.

SA checking his ego is even less likely than Felicity dying for real. Edited October 11, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Primal Slayer]

I have a very hard time believing it wouldn't affect ratings. The episode after Sara died was one of the lowest-rated episodes ever, and that was for a secondary character. I think ratings would plummet and remain down. And not just because of shippers leaving, although they obviously would, but also because people are legit tired of the misery porn and plenty of people who don't care that much about Olicity care about Felicity.

I am really sure TPTB over Guggie would not allow it.

And yet ratings bounced back and it had no overall affect on the season.

I'm curious how they are looking at TVD fall in ratings. The show has been on the decline for years, both in ratings and quality. Plus the loss of Nina and the borderline disrepect of some of the actors on the show, which is entertaining but probably not that smart when they need to rebrand after the meat leaves.

I'm surprised the ratings weren't impacted more by Ninas departure. Of course it is only 1 episode thus far but she was essentially the main character of the show and it is able to go on.

[apinknightmare]

It's impossible to say what would happen with viewership, but killing Felicity would be a huge risk, and I don't think TPTB would be willing to take it. Felicity/Olicity is a huge traffic driver to entertainment sites, MG and co use them for promo, she crosses over to other shows (The Flash and Vixen). And online fandom is a small percentage of general viewership, so surely there are large numbers of Felicity fans who never comment on a website.

Would it end the show? Probably not. I can't say what the hit would be, but I highly doubt the money men would risk finding out.

I really don't think a main character is getting it.

Edited October 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I'm curious how they are looking at TVD fall in ratings. The show has been on the decline for years, both in ratings and quality. Plus the loss of Nina and the borderline disrepect of some of the actors on the show, which is entertaining but probably not that smart when they need to rebrand after the meat leaves.

TVD never dropped below 1.0 in the 18-49A demo until halfway through S5, Arrow dropped below 1.0 in S1

TVD didn't have bad ratings until after it's 100th episode. In fact Arrow has never been the #1 show on the CW. In its first season it was #2, The Flash was the first show to actually knock TVD out of it's Flagship spot.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tarotx]

When you know the characters you like are safe you can deal with the fear of losing the other characters. When Sara died I was angry with the way it was done. They could have had her die in the s2 battle. They let her live just to kill her off one episode later for drama. And in doing so they literally dropped her in the trash and fridged her. And made Laurel SWF her. Sara was my second favorite female character who would have died in season 2 and it would have still felt earned unlike how it felt cheap in the s3 premiere. With Felicity dying it would be the second female character to die for Laurel to ascend to her comic destiny. And it would be more females to die for Oliver's journey. So yeah it would angry me. I rather they find a way for Olicity not to work out if they want EBR off the show.

Edited October 10, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

I think you are giving them way to much power. They aren't the backbone of theCW. If Greys Anatomy can kill off their biggest charecter who isn't Grey and lose majority of its original cast and manage to stay a float, Arrow would most likely be able to do the same IF the writers were good enough to give us an interesting show. The day shippers control tv it would be a sad day imo.

ARROW is not an ensemble show like Grey's Anatomy. It has an ensemble cast, but the main story & the main draw to the show revolves around one character's journey. Every storyline in some way services his story for good or for bad. At least that is the structure of s1-3. If in s4, the writers really pursue and succeed at writing an ensemble show with an ensemble plot then perhaps in a few seasons they could kill FS to go for a shocker.

 

Grey's Anatomy gradually kills/sends off its main characters, and are constantly replacing the main arcs & characters. It also works in GA, because the show has always been about soapy medical drama, not Meredith Grey, despite the fact she is heavily featured. A medical drama can easily sustain a loss to heavily featured cast member because of the nature of the show. All you have to do is replace her with another heavily featured character in the same "role". ER lost Carol & gave us Abby is a perfect example. Every now and then they do a major cast purge, but they spent the previous 2 or so seasons leading up to that crash with setting up the new group of resident MDs. I know because it's when I checked out of the show. That is not the case on ARROW, they have not given us a season of replacement plots and character arcs. Heck, they wouldn't even show the new team having a victory mission on one episode. 25min the new TA was panicking and calling in OQ to save them. In GA, you can almost tell who is going to die because they either make their replacement obvious or set-up some cliche arc with tragic twist like George's adventure to the military and buses.

 

ARROW has spent 3 seasons setting up that OQ's hero's journey and at the center of that journey providing wisdom, happiness and love is FS. You can't kill her off without causing OQ to tailspin. Will his tailspin be angst & manpain galore, yes. Will the writers be able to resist the urge to right to that pain, probably not. But I don't think that will happen in s4. A few seasons down when they are looking to reboot or re-energize the series, I can see FS being killed, however I also see that kill not lasting. S4 is not that season, regardless of how quickly TPTB like to burn through plot.

 

This death is either going to be for plot exposition purposes, a secondary character or LoT related plot point. If its going to be a character driven death then its going to be spring cleaning to get rid of the character dead weight in the writer's room. They seem to alternate between killing and letting the dead weight go off into the sunset. This year it seems that person won't get RH's fate and get to peace out of SC.

[Primal Slayer]

[Edited by mod.] Greys Anatomy centers around Meredith Grey, who the show is named after. They just aren't as tight as they are with Arrow. Even Buffy centered around Buffy but had characters do their own thing. Oliver at some point would have to learn to live for himself and of course killing off Felicity would be a big test for him. But either way as you said, Arrow centers around Oliver. Felicity is not Oliver just as Laurel isn't Oliver. Either could go, neither most likely wont.

But of course we get to spend the next 5 months seeing people speculate away and get emotional over the possibility of their favorite possibly leaving.

Edited October 11, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Happy Harpy]

When a site as mainstream as TVLine -therefore imo, mostly relying what producers want to rely- acknowledges the percentage of "Olicity" fans as a factor in "why it's not her" in the grave, I believe that it's as official as you can get. It means at the very least, for me, that TPTB know that no Felicity could cost them a significant part of their viewership. And they didn't even count "just" Felicity fans, or OTA fans, which could also represent a good portion of the viewership.

 

ITA with about Arrow not being an ensemble show. Moreover:

1) Most shows with revolving cast members are ratings juggernauts, like ER or Grey's Anatomy or CSI and even NCIS. They can afford a certain loss and keep impressive numbers. Arrow doesn't have the same margin at all, not in viewers and not in demo.

2) Even those shows mostly lost their status of rating juggernaut along with big cast members. Imo, at best, they generally maintain their status in the ratings for more or less a season following a big departure, time for casual viewers to get bored/to react, and then take a toll and never recover.

 

Arrow is centered around Oliver, but Felicity and Diggle complete him and their roles got expanded because they worked well with him. Imo, the show clicked with viewers and gained momentum with the formation of Original Team Arrow -I think that some cast members/reviewers mentioned  it? I don't have quotes. I think this is the "winning formula" of Arrow, and therefore, altering it would be the most likely to hurt the ratings on the short term with the fans, and on the middle/long term with more casual viewers.

I love Thea, I've liked her  since S1 (just like Roy...my babies) and I would be furious and find it nonsensical and overkill (literally) if she died, but I can't say honestly that losing her would affect the ratings in the same way.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't Derek killed off because Patrick Dempsey pissed off Shonda Rhimes? She took a calculated risk as the best case scenario, and so far it seems to be working out okay. Not sure if anyone on the Arrow cast is having a personal issue/contract issue that warrants an offing. I think the Grey's issue is helped a little because Meredith and Derek were coming off a pretty rocky patch where he nearly cheated on her, and there are other ships on the show for people who watch for shipping purposes. 

 

It seems like one of the reasons they're killing this person off is to undo the LP effect, and to establish that death is an actual permanent thing again. Seems like the type of thing you'd establish with a more secondary character. I'm not bothered by it because I feel like my faves are safe (and will be really upset if I'm wrong), but screw these writers for hanging this over MONTHS of show that would've been immensely more enjoyable if I wasn't wondering who was getting ready to fucking die. 

[Primal Slayer]

Of course this team isn't talented enough imo to write a major death like Felicitys and make it work but it's hard to never say never. Charmed took a risk with killing off Prue and bringing in a new sister, Buffy shipped off Angel, her love interest to a completely new show.

 

But I will be laughing if after all of this, it isn't even a main character who dies. It's like Desperate housewives always advertising that a wife was dying but never one of the core 4.

[apinknightmare]

There are two reasons I find it difficult to believe they'd kill off Felicity: 1 - she's so popular, and 2 - they just got Oliver to Green Arrow territory, and they're going to kill off the woman he wanted to marry? I just don't see it. Guess we'll know in 6 months (or sooner, please sooner).

Edited October 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tarotx]

There was a lot of in fighting as the reason Shannon was fired from Charmed. But there was always the chance that Prue could come back because their was ghost on the show so the fans had some transition hope.

The purpose of this death is death so yeah no hope.

Angel became the Villain in s2. He was killed off as the Villain(even if Willow gave him back his soul last second). He returned to ship off to a spin off. He's closer to Sara and Ray.

Edited October 10, 2015 by tarotx

[Primal Slayer]

Charmed did not go on for 5 more years because people constantly held out hope for Prue to show up.

 

And Buffy/Angel were still a big thing come Season 3 and still buffys main love interest. He was far more then Sara or Ray.

 

Just like with Moira/Tommy, there is possibilites of flashbacks and now even more so of an Earth 2 counterpart. Or maybe Shado route with the awful twin-twist. Can't put anything past these peoples.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[tarotx]

I meant it was one of the reason the fans didn't revolt at once concerning Prue. The season 4 premiere inserted Piper as the Lead and delt with her emotions well. Even at the end of s3 they grew Piper's power and focused on her issues. So when 4.1 focused on Piper it felt right.

And Buffy fans knew Angel was the big bad of season 2 and in S3 that he was leaving for a spin off. They weren't even a couple a chunk of S3 any way. First Angel was in hell, then he was crazy, then the show had nearly everyone say how bad a couple they were and then they were broke up. Even when Angel danced with Buffy at The prom they were already broken up.

I know because Prue was my favorite Character and I was a B/A shipper.

Charmed did not go on for 5 more years because people constantly held out hope for Prue to show up.

And Buffy/Angel were still a big thing come Season 3 and still buffys main love interest. He was far more then Sara or Ray.

Just like with Moira/Tommy, there is possibilites of flashbacks and now even more so of an Earth 2 counterpart. Or maybe Shado route with the awful twin-twist. Can't put anything past these peoples.

[AyChihuahua]

What the writers would like to do is different from what the network, etc., would allow.  

[Primal Slayer]

I meant it was one of the reason the fans didn't revolt at once concerning Prue. The season 4 premiere inserted Piper as the Lead and delt with her emotions well. Even at the end of s3 they grew Piper's power and focused on her issues. So when 4.1 focused on Piper it felt right.

And Buffy fans knew Angel was the big bad of season 2 and in S3 that he was leaving for a spin off. They weren't even a couple a chunk of S3 any way. First Angel was in hell, then he was crazy, then the show had nearly everyone say how bad a couple they were and then they were broke up. Even when Angel danced with Buffy at The prom they were already broken up.

I know because Prue was my favorite Character and I was a B/A shipper.

Prue was my favorite and I was a B/A shipper as well. So....

[tarotx]

I meant I'm coming in with a pov of some of the fans. As always never all.

Prue was my favorite and I was a B/A shipper as well. So....

[Chaser]

I think it also helps when fans know a character is on the way out. Even if it is a fan favorite situation, knowing that the actor wants to leave tends to help smooth things over. It also prepares the audience.

[Morrigan2575]

I meant it was one of the reason the fans didn't revolt at once concerning Prue. The season 4 premiere inserted Piper as the Lead and delt with her emotions well. Even at the end of s3 they grew Piper's power and focused on her issues. So when 4.1 focused on Piper it felt right.

 

There was a ton of Drama BTS on Charmed, there were rumors  that Shannon was jealous of Holly and Alyssa becoming besties (Holly was Shannon's bestie before the show started).  There were also clashes over storylines and popularity/media attention.  Shannon was hired as the star/lead of the show and by S3 Phoebe was the more popular character and the one the Network was backing.  The Phoebe/Cole relationship was massively popular, followed by the Piper/Leo romance and those relationships and characters were eclipsing Prue/Shannon

 

From what I remember, the reason people didn't freak out when Prue was written out is because the show was already moving away from Prue and focusing more on Phoebe as the lead, with Piper as the second lead.  The show also heavily focused on the Phoebe/Cole relationship, which was a huge draw for the network.

 

To bring this discussion back to Arrow, Charmed's continued success post Prue validates why Felicity being killed off could (I can't say would) cause a ratings drop.  Charmed kept the emerging lead actress/character, the main romance and fan favorite and jettisoned the least liked (no offense to her fans) character.  I say this as neither a Phoebe or Phoebe/Cole fan...I was actually a Piper fan.

 

BTW - In case this wasn't clear, the Charmed argument doesn't hold water when saying that Arrow wouldn't be impacted by theoretically killing Felicity off because the comparison isn't valid. Felicity isn't Prue in this situation, she's Phoebe, Laurel is essentially Prue....

 

As for Angel, the show was actually canceled in S5.  The WB didn't think the show was worth the new fees FOX was charging for renewing the contract.  It was saved by UPN mostly because UPN was trying to play with the Big Kids and thought that picking up WBs scraps (Buffy and Roswell) they could actually compete with The WB...it obviously didn't work since UPN/WB folded into The CW. 

 

So really, that Buffy argument is a failed argument as well, since it did get canceled 2 seasons after Angel was spun-off into his own show. 

Edited October 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tarotx]

I was part of the fans that hated Phoebe and Cole. so yeah it's time to move on...

Though Laurel/Prue does fit a bit since poor Tommy&Andy :'(

Edited October 10, 2015 by tarotx

[TwistedandBored]

Most of those shows mention have all suffered in some ways both in ratings and in social media. 

 

As for Arrow. I think some fans might have stayed if the show didn't play loosely with death in previous seasons. I mean the show not only brought back Thea and Sara using LP but kept two evil guys such as Slade and Malcolm around and alive. Made the death of RAG vague thus giving themselves an opportunity for his return later. 

I don't think they would have any reason to kill of Felicity and keep both her fans, OTA fans, and the shippers around. The resentment they would get from the fans would be crazy. 

 

I mean GoT comparison is stupid. After the show started to kill whoever dies in the book in their first season then most people had a source where they can go and would tell them who dies next...that is if they wanted to be spoiled. 

Shonda killing Derek was also b/c of outside reasoning and everyone knew it was coming. 

TVD-the actress didn't wanted out. There was nothing CW or the show could do and the fans understood that. What they were angry about is why bring the show back? Why not ended it? Also, social media for TVD has gone down dramatically this year. 

 

On Arrow, there is no reason to kill Felicity. Nothing that would justify anything they say to those fans. Amell, the writers, and CW benefit from the shippers everyone seem to think is just all talk. It is the fandom that gives them soo much buzz and money for their charities, books, and comics. 

[Morrigan2575]

I was part of the fans that hated Phoebe and Cole. so yeah it's time to move on...

Though Laurel/Prue does fit a bit since poor Tommy&Andy :'(

I didn't hate them but I wasn't fan either.

 

I mean GoT comparison is stupid. After the show started to kill whoever dies in the book in their first season then most people had a source where they can go and would tell them who dies next...that is if they wanted to be spoiled.

 

 

Me!  That's exactly what I did after S1, I looked up all my favorite characters to see if they were safe...I was well prepared for The Red Wedding.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[TwistedandBored]

Me!  That's exactly what I did after S1, I looked up all my favorite characters to see if they were safe...I was well prepared for The Red Wedding.

 

I sort of skim read his books way back in the day but I didn't think they would actually follow through until they did. I sat there in shock and them went to Amazon and reordered the books again. lol

[statsgirl]

The GoT comparison doesn't really fit for all the reasons mentioned above. (Those deaths are also why i don't watch it.)

 

A different comparison -- after setting up the show around the Castle/Beckett relationship, this year the new showrunners decided to break up Castle and Beckett.  So far, from the comments, it seems like the heavy duty fans are unhappy with it.  Very unhappy.

 

While Oliver/Felicity is not the DNA of the show like Castle/Beckett is, I think Original Team Arrow might well be.   Now that Thea and Laurel are added, plus any future characters, It's possible killing Felicity or Diggle wouldn't affect the show, but given the ratings, I wouldn't risk my profits on it.

[Princess Vanellope]

I think you are giving them way to much power. They aren't the backbone of theCW. If Greys Anatomy can kill off their biggest charecter who isn't Grey and lose majority of its original cast and manage to stay a float, Arrow would most likely be able to do the same IF the writers were good enough to give us an interesting show. The day shippers control tv it would be a sad day imo.

But i doubt any of us having to worry about our faves being killed.

Grey's lost 1 million viewers in one week after what happened last season. And they haven't returned. The thing is, Grey's has ratings that could eat Arrow's ratings alive. If Arrow lost a full 1/4 of their viewers, they may be able to stay afloat for a bit, but I can't see them getting renewed for long if there are other more promising projects on deck.

[Hipkarma]

 

BTW - In case this wasn't clear, the Charmed argument doesn't hold water when saying that Arrow wouldn't be impacted by theoretically killing Felicity off because the comparison isn't valid. Felicity isn't Prue in this situation, she's Phoebe, Laurel is essentially Prue....

 

 

I remember Prue being written out well. I was an avid fan back in the day. I preferred Piper as a character on many levels but agree that essentially Phoebe ended up as 'lead' character. Piper and Leo didn't have quite the pull that Phoebe and Cole did. Oh now I may have to track down an episode or two. Anyway, with regard to Arrow, there is no parallel to Prue and Felicity. The obvious parallel given 'originating series character' is Laurel. 

 

 

 

 

[Balaclava]

[Edited by mod: Please don't post about how a group of fans feels.]

Most of you probably know that networks track data online about shows, in fact Nielsen made a few changes, one of them being that tweets about TV shows that used to start counting 3 hours prior to the ep airing, is now tracking that same data 24 hours before. That is how important online social media is to the networks. Tweets are worth money.

On the day 4x01 aired, and i'm sure some of you saw the snapshots, 2 hours before the ep ended there were something like 23/24K tweets under the tag #FelicitySmoak, she was right after #OliverQueen that had something like 25/26K. I would attach images if i knew how to do it, sorry.

Point is, you need to take in regard Felicity fans, not only shippers. You also need to remember that the CW is not some of the other bigger networks that can have the luxury to kill characters that bring the kind of buzz Felicity does, and face the consequence of losing audience. I don't have any doubts the ratings would drop.

Edited October 11, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Princess Vanellope]

Most of you probably know that networks track data online about shows, in fact Nielsen made a few changes, one of them being that tweets about TV shows that used to start counting 3 hours prior to the ep airing, is now tracking that same data 24 hours before. That is how important online social media is to the networks. Tweets are worth money.

On the day 4x01 aired, and i'm sure some of you saw the snapshots, 2 hours before the ep ended there were something like 23/24K tweets under the tag #FelicitySmoak, she was right after #OliverQueen that had something like 25/26K. I would attach images if i knew how to do it, sorry.

Point is, you need to take in regard Felicity fans, not only shippers. You also need to remember that the CW is not some of the other bigger networks that can have the luxury to kill characters that bring the kind of buzz Felicity does, and face the consequence of losing audience. I don't have any doubts the ratings would drop.

This. A zillion times over. Bravo. Edited October 11, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[NumberCruncher]

That is a very good point--there are more than a few Felicity Smoak fans who aren't Olicity shippers. The only reason I say don't piss off the Olicity shippers is that they're usually the ones being the most vocal and organizing all of the promo campaigns that the network loves.

Long story short--they would be complete imbeciles to kill her off, even if they thought it would create good drama.

Edited October 11, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Morrigan2575]

You also need to remember that the CW is not some of the other bigger networks that can have the luxury to kill characters that bring the kind of buzz Felicity does, and face the consequence of losing audience. I don't have any doubts the ratings would drop.

Yeah, the CW is deeply engrained in social media. They force actors and EPs to get on Twitter and engage fans. They also do a lot of promotion via social media.

Honestly, I have no idea if the ratings would drop if Felicity were killed off. What I do know (or think I know) is that there is an executive looking at The Vampire Diaries S7 premiere ratings going, [i)oh shit![/i].

I imagine that if MG/GB went to the Network this year and said hey we want to kill off Felicity and end Olicity The Executive would LHAO and then tell them Hell, No...Now, get out.

Not to mention, The CW's contracts with their affiliates are up after the 2015-2016 season. I don't know what's going on with Clearwire but, the last thing the Network needs or wants is something that could damage Flash, Arrow, SPN or possibly LoT ratings.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

I guess I'm in the minority because I liked Prue, and hated that she was killed off. I hated Phoebe. I did like Piper but I think I watched a season with Rose McGowen, then lost interest.

 

Arrow can't even be compared to GoT, just like the Walking Dead. We figured out from the first episode that the stakes were higher for the characters. Deaths are part of how the shows were set up. Arrow was not set up that way. Plus GoT and TWD are ratings juggernauts, they can lose a million viewers and still have 10 times more viewers than Arrow can ever dream of having.  

 

I basically think they just trolled us with the fact that they had Oliver standing there alone and Barry show up to make the audience think it's Felicity, but Oliver's subdued reaction makes it impossible to be her. However they did that to show us that obviously the stars of the two shows are safe, everyone elses fate is up in the air. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

That is a very good point--there are more than a few Felicity Smoak fans who aren't Olicity shippers. The only reason I say don't piss off the Olicity shippers is that they're usually the ones being the most vocal and organizing all of the promo campaigns that the network loves.

Long story short--they would be complete imbeciles to kill her off, even if they thought it would create good drama.

That's me.  I love Felicity, and I am not a shipper because although I see the chemistry, I think she's way too good for him after S3.  

 

Also, I feel entirely comfortable that ratings would drop.  I don't know how much, obviously, but I am totally sure they would drop.

Edited October 11, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Primal Slayer]

There was a ton of Drama BTS on Charmed, there were rumors  that Shannon was jealous of Holly and Alyssa becoming besties (Holly was Shannon's bestie before the show started).  There were also clashes over storylines and popularity/media attention.  Shannon was hired as the star/lead of the show and by S3 Phoebe was the more popular character and the one the Network was backing.  The Phoebe/Cole relationship was massively popular, followed by the Piper/Leo romance and those relationships and characters were eclipsing Prue/Shannon

 

From what I remember, the reason people didn't freak out when Prue was written out is because the show was already moving away from Prue and focusing more on Phoebe as the lead, with Piper as the second lead.  The show also heavily focused on the Phoebe/Cole relationship, which was a huge draw for the network.

 

To bring this discussion back to Arrow, Charmed's continued success post Prue validates why Felicity being killed off could (I can't say would) cause a ratings drop.  Charmed kept the emerging lead actress/character, the main romance and fan favorite and jettisoned the least liked (no offense to her fans) character.  I say this as neither a Phoebe or Phoebe/Cole fan...I was actually a Piper fan.

 

BTW - In case this wasn't clear, the Charmed argument doesn't hold water when saying that Arrow wouldn't be impacted by theoretically killing Felicity off because the comparison isn't valid. Felicity isn't Prue in this situation, she's Phoebe, Laurel is essentially Prue....

 

As for Angel, the show was actually canceled in S5.  The WB didn't think the show was worth the new fees FOX was charging for renewing the contract.  It was saved by UPN mostly because UPN was trying to play with the Big Kids and thought that picking up WBs scraps (Buffy and Roswell) they could actually compete with The WB...it obviously didn't work since UPN/WB folded into The CW. 

 

So really, that Buffy argument is a failed argument as well, since it did get canceled 2 seasons after Angel was spun-off into his own show. 

How do both failed? Charmed centered around 3 sisters, they killed off one of the sisters and brought in an entirely new one, that's not a small thing, it's kind of huge. Prues character was just as big in season 3 as it was in past seasons.  And Buffy wasn't cancelled 2 seasons after Angel was spun-off. Buffy spent 4 seasons Angel-less and it wasn't even cancelled, it ended on its own merit. So both of them are perfectly good examples of shows getting rid of major characters and still having life afterwards.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Primal Slayer