The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Curio]

I came across this comic from The New Yorker and thought it'd be fun to discuss in here, since the Once writers always seem to be guilty of using these four undramatic plot structures at some point or another.


(Source: The Four Undramatic Plot Structures by Tom Gauld.)
 
It makes me laugh whenever the writers say they don't like to include character moments like popping popcorn, watching Netflix, or having family dinners because (to quote Eddy directly) "Where's the drama in that?" But ironically, even when they try to purposely write drama, it ends up being undramatic anyways. Just using 4A as an example (because I'm still not over how poorly they executed the ending), we can see many times where the writers were guilty of using one of those four undramatic plot structures.
 

I. Ignoring the Monster: The hero is confronted by an antagonistic force and ignores it until it goes away.

 

Rumple was ignored by nearly everyone in Storybrooke (except Hook) the entire half season until Belle forced him to go away. What's the fun in having a villain doing shady things when no one can be on his trail for multiple episodes? It doesn't count to have Hook be the only one who knows about the secret hat plot because he physically couldn't tell anyone about what Rumple was doing. It also doesn't count to have one scene where Belle's reflection made her question the fake dagger because there wasn't any follow-up to that scene. 

 

And then you have Emma ignoring all the red flags about Hook's behavior. Emma never investigating Hook's strange demeanor (which was directly correlated to Rumple) is basically the definition of "ignoring the monster." If Emma had spent just 5 minutes looking into why Hook was acting the way he was, we could have gotten a plot where she discovered his heart was missing, which could have lead to her actually fighting to save his life. Emma also ignored Rumple's suspicious behavior during Episode 8 when he alluded to his inability to give up power. 

 

There's also the scene where Emma finds out Regina had been keeping Sidney locked as a prisoner in her mirror and had plans to kill Marian. Instead of questioning any of this, Emma ignored all of it and trusted that Regina had truly changed and just needed a drinking buddy. 
 

II. Erroneous Accusation: The protagonist is accused of wrongdoing, but it’s not a big thing and soon gets sorted out.

 

Regina accused Emma for "ruining her life" when she brought Marian back to Storybrooke. If that isn't the definition of "erroneous accusation," I don't know what is. First off, the fact that Regina of all people accused Emma for ruining a budding romance is comical. But Regina's petty behavior toward Emma quickly disappeared after a nice episode of yelling at Emma for something she shouldn't feel bad about. Once that happened, the issue was dropped completely. Regina's accusation ended up not having any weight to it by the end of 4A anyways because Marian quickly forgave Regina, jumped on #TeamOutlawQueen, and supported their new relationship.

 

Another example: Charming accuses Hook of not having the best intentions for dating Emma, but Hook quickly shoots him down and sets things straight. So "it’s not a big thing and soon gets sorted out" in about 5 seconds.

 

III. The Enigma Unsolved: The heroine is faced with a problem but it’s really, really difficult so she gives up.

 

How many times were we shown Regina researching the author, only to find no leads and wanting to give up? Too many. Regina was also faced with the difficult problem of dating a man whose wife was frozen (and, you know, the slight issue of having tortured said wife in the past), but instead of talking about things like getting a divorce, Regina gives up on figuring out the situation and assumes Robin can never be with her.

 

We also have Charming and Snow giving up on their daughter's difficult problem in Episode 8. "What should we do about our daughter who is missing and wants to give up her powers?" "I don't know, this is really difficult. Maybe we should just give up and let her do what she wants and stay here in this loft." Really, guys?
 

IV. Diminishing Desire: A man wants something. Later he’s not so sure. By suppertime he’s forgotten all about it.

 

Regina wanted Henry back in her life so desperately in 3B, but when he's finally back by 4A, she forgets all about him and now only wants Robin. Having one true love in her life just isn't enough, she needs another.

 

Hook wants his hand back for his date with Emma. Later, he's not so sure he made the right decision. By the next episode, his hook is back and this entire plot is forgotten about.

 

Rumple tried very hard to trick Emma into being sucked into the hat. Later, he's forgotten all about that plan and now only wants to hat the fairies without any explanation.

 

(Feel free to add more examples from other seasons!)

[Shanna Marie]

They also did the erroneous accusation with Elsa, where early in the season everyone was eager to accuse her of all the evil ice goings on, but I don't recall them actually sharing with the townspeople that there was another Snow Queen out there. The townspeople seem to have just shrugged and said oh well, never mind and gone about their business. Then again, they barely included the rest of the town at all except when they needed a big Marx Brothers Main Street fight scene.

 

Going back to 3B, they kind of did this with Regina, where the town is ready to believe Regina was the one who cursed them again, but it seems like they all just got over that. They were willing to believe she was still evil, and she's certainly given them reason to do so, but now they apparently are all hunky-dory with her.

 

We also had some diminishing desire with Regina in 3B, where her discovery of Zelena during the missing year gave her the big "now I have something to live for -- someone to destroy!" moment. And then she did pretty much nothing at all about it.

 

The return to the Enchanted Forest issue from season 2 also falls into this category. There were all those debates about staying in Storybrooke or going home, they grew the beans, Regina destroyed them all, they went home, and now they're back, and we've never learned what anyone thinks about any of it. Nothing has changed. No one seems to be resentful about either being sent home or brought back. It was such a big issue earlier, and then it just evaporated.

[Souris]

A few fans on Twitter were telling Adam that the writers don't care enough about plot and only care about ships, and that Scott Nimerfro is the only writer who cares about plot.

 

Let that sink in. There's not enough plot in this show. The writers don't care enough about plot.

 

After checking to make sure I hadn't been somehow sucked into Bizarro World where the show is a carefully nuanced character study, it was all I could do not to reply with pages and pages of LOLOLOLOLOL. I can't even.

[Mari]

Let that sink in. There's not enough plot in this show. The writers don't care enough about plot.

Huh.  Some definitely have a completely different concept of reality than I do.

 

I suppose there's an argument to be made that they don't actually care about plot--too much gets set up and then completely ignored, so that we can look at the shiny new event that won't actually tie in with however they decide to solve the problem of the day.

 

We complain about plot, plot, plot, and complete abandonment of consistent characterization, and it's a legitimate complaint--but we don't even have a plot so much as random events that eventually work out to our heroes (Regina's) benefit.

 

I suspect, though, that this is not quite the complaint they were making.

[FurryFury]

Hahahaha. Oh, Once fandom, you're golden.

 

But seriously, it kinda seems most of these "fans" don't even care about the actual show. They like this writer because he sucks up to them on twitter, not because he writes good episodes. And critics and people who are able to point this out are either gone from the fandom or silenced by the more vocal viewers.

[YaddaYadda]

David wanted to go back to the EF, Snow wasn't too hot about it and one of her reasons was Emma, but she has a new baby now so who knows.  And after the zomg arms flailing because the generator is down situation, how did any of them survive without a light switch?  Everyone was still in the EF just a few weeks ago.

[Shanna Marie]

A few fans on Twitter were telling Adam that the writers don't care enough about plot and only care about ships

You know, they may have inadvertently made a more accurate point than they realized if you distinguish between "ships" and "relationships."

 

To me, a "ship" is all about what will make tumblr explode. It's those big, grand moments ready-made for creating gifs or music videos. It's thinking that all fans want in a relationship is 40 minutes of smooching. It's contrived angst that exists only to make fans "ded from all the feelz." A relationship is about people growing together, getting to know each other, making each other better people along the way. It's subtle and gradually builds. There may be a few gifable moments -- even a solid relationship is going to have some spectacular kisses or epic hugs -- but the real meat of the relationship is found elsewhere and isn't the kind of stuff that makes a good music video. It's real conflict that has to be worked through.

 

And on this show, they do seem to prioritize ships over plot or relationships. Take the mid-season finale. I'm not enough of a masochist to go back and time how much was spent on each plot, but the Regina and Robin situation got several major scenes, plus the consoling scene at the end. Instead of dealing with the substance of their relationship or even acknowledging the conflict that should have been inherent in it (Regina was the reason Robin lost Marian in the first place), they went to the contrived angst of Marian still being frozen (gee, Ingrid sacrificed herself to undo the spell on the town, but didn't bother to undo the one spell she did only to try to frame Elsa) and them being separated, probably temporarily, so we could get the tearful scene at the town line and generate "all the feelz." They made the story line about Rumple stealing power from other magical beings and sacrificing Hook so he could separate himself from the dagger and go be powerful in the outside world into a story about how Belle isn't really number one in Rumple's life. They skipped over the plot stuff, like Belle actually learning and discovering things or Emma and the others learning what was going on, to have the big "all the feelz" moment. Then they wrapped up the part about Hook with a gifable passionate kiss and skipped over the relationship part about Emma dealing with nearly losing yet another boyfriend or being there for him as he dealt with the trauma of being forced to do things he hated by his worst enemy.

[KingOfHearts]

 

"Kansas" was giving the shining moment to a character simply because they could in a way that make absolutely no sense and has not been referenced since.

This is an example of the writers wanting to pull off a certain effect, but sacrificing all logic and organic buildup to get there. They needed Regina to look like the Truest Hero to Ever Be Redeemed in order to give more shock value to Marian coming back alive. (You know, besides the fact the Regina Fan Club wanted their trumph.) Then you have Belle with the dagger, which had little to no setup. They had to have that surprise moment of her silencing Rumple, but with no buildup.

[RadioGirl27]

This is an example of the writers wanting to pull off a certain effect, but sacrificing all logic and organic buildup to get there. They needed Regina to look like the Truest Hero to Ever Be Redeemed in order to give more shock value to Marian coming back alive. (You know, besides the fact the Regina Fan Club wanted their trumph.) Then you have Belle with the dagger, which had little to no setup. They had to have that surprise moment of her silencing Rumple, but with no buildup.

Yeah, this is one of the many problems with the writting in this show, the "wouldn't it be cool if we did this or that" (like bringing back Marian or giving Regina the whitest white magic ever) and the plot twists ("Zelena is Regina's sister", "Blackbeard has the Jolly Roger and he is helping Hans", etc). The don't care about the buildup or the payoff of those twist, just in the shock value of them. And the sad thing is that the 99% of the time, the cool twist is not even mildly interesting.

Edited January 30, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[tennisgurl]

Sometimes I think of all the plot lines/characters that have been dropped over the years, and it just makes me sad. Television is such an interesting medium, because, unlike movies, writers have the time to tell multiple, complex stories, with multiple, complex characters, with interesting arcs and story lines. Sadly, the writers got too interested in a few characters and story lines, and neglected basically all of the other ones. Then, they started throwing things at the wall (anti-magic bracelets! Neverland! Oz!) to see what stuck, and let everything that didn't just slink away. And then things that DID work still got neglected, if it has nothing to do with whatever the writers new favorite toy is. I know that a lot of TV shows have issues picking favorites (especially on shows with ensemble casts, and multiple story lines), or letting characters and plot lines just fall to the wayside when they had a lot of potential, but this show.... 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Sometimes I think of all the plot lines/characters that have been dropped over the years, and it just makes me sad.

What the heck happened to Pandora's box? Couldn't they have sucked Ingrid into it so they could imprison her but not kill her? What was with the yellow ribbons not actually being important? Is Lumiere still a candelabra? What about Gaston and Gepetto's parents?! WHERE IS MULAN?!

[tennisgurl]

Does Frankenstein want to get back to his brother in his home universe? Where is King George, and is he in jail? Is Tiny still gardening? Did Grumpy ever try to look up his fairy girlfriend again? Where did Sydney run off to? Have I just forgotten these things, or are they still unexplained?  

[Shanna Marie]

Does Frankenstein want to get back to his brother in his home universe?

They seem to have entirely forgotten that he was from another universe. It's rather unfair for him to have been caught up in the second curse, when he was unnecessary to it. Regina had a beef with him, and I guess Snow hasn't forgiven him for the one-night stand. The curse didn't take Eric when he was too far away, so why did it reach after Whale in another universe? Is he the only doctor in the hospital?

 

Where is King George, and is he in jail?

George seems to have been forgotten entirely. I think it was mentioned in a deleted scene that he was locked up in the mines, but we don't know what happened when they returned to the Enchanted Forest, and we don't know if he was brought back in curse 2. It's a little rich for him to have been locked up for his offenses but they're friends with Regina.

 

Is Tiny still gardening?

I wonder if Tiny was caught in the second curse. He wasn't in the first one but was brought over on the Jolly Roger, so maybe if he went back to the castle on top of the beanstalk after the return he was left behind. Poor Tiny.

 

Did Grumpy ever try to look up his fairy girlfriend again?

They dealt with that in one of those "Good Morning, Storybrooke" features on the DVDs. She was doing a craft segment about folding fitted sheets when he showed up, and there was an awkward, tearful scene. Of course, they didn't bother to work that into the actual show. And it's a real pity that they can't fit half the charm and whimsy from those bonus features into the actual show. They actually bothered to use the fact that fairy tale characters were in our world. The Boy Who Cried Wolf being a TV reporter was a brilliant touch.

 

Where did Sydney run off to?

I'm curious about that because it's not like he could have left the town during the ice wall crisis. And did he still have genie magic outside the mirror? I think Regina put him back into the mirror so he'd have magic. He should still be around, but we haven't heard anything. In my dreams, he's brewing a revenge vendetta against Regina. Do we even know if Snow knows he killed her father (on Regina's behalf)?

 

Have I just forgotten these things, or are they still unexplained?

They're unexplained or took place in Offscreenville, where all the good stuff happens.

 

These writers have the attention spans of toddlers on crack. They're utterly obsessed with the things that interest them and deal with them over and over and over again, but they can lose interest in other things in about twenty seconds, often without even finishing with them. Their favorite (well, second favorite, since nothing tops Regina) thing can very quickly be tossed aside and forgotten for the new shiny. Or else they want the same thing again and again and refuse to try anything new.

[Camera One]

The writers hyped that they were going to bring Sydney back, but that was so utterly unsatisfying and his role was so peripheral.  They bring back these guest characters with some depth back in the day, and then they use them as props.  I didn't want The Sydney Show, but we saw nothing from his POV.  His continued adoration of Regina in the season premiere when she freed him from his cell made no sense, until it did when ("surprise" twist) he betrayed her to work for The Snow Queen.  Another example was bringing back Aurora and Philip in 4A to betray Snow and Charming, before promptly being turned into Flying Monkeys, with no exploration of how they felt before or after.  They have so little interest in their own creations.

 

The only other way the writers seem to use these returning characters as a glorified extra with one or two lines.  Like how they dragged Kathryn back in the Season 3 finale, and she only got lines in the Enchanted Forest.  Or how Ashley got two insensitive lines in Baby & Me Class.  Or Tinkerbelle for a brief pep talk with Regina.

 

I'm torn because of the few fun things about this show is seeing those cameos, but it's so hard not to feel let down by the hype of hearing they're coming back.  

[KAOS Agent]

I'm curious to see what they do with Aurora since she's part of Maleficent's story and is now in Storybrooke. I don't expect much, but they better do something with her. It does seem to be a bit of a joke with some of these actors about what happened to their characters. Sarah Bolger and Julian Morris had that exchange on Twitter where Julian expressed surprised that their baby had been born.

 

The writers have no interest in developing anything that they've set in motion and generally choose not to close it off either. Kathryn & Frederick are supposedly living happily ever after, but did we ever see anything to indicate that? Was Pinocchio affected by the latest curse and if not, why the hell did he need to be sent through the wardrobe the first time around? What happened to Ashley's prince when they returned to the Enchanted Forest? Was he back to being a frog? These are questions I'd like answered. It wouldn't even take much. Just a throw away line by the writers here and there to address it. Snow & Charming could leave Baby Snowflake with Emma for the evening and say, "If you need us, we'll be at Frederick and Kathryn's for dinner." It indicates both that the couple exists and that they are happy. Also, it shows that Snowing aren't living in a silo where they only interact with Regina, Rumpel, Emma and new found babysitter Belle. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

The same thing about Whale can be argued about Will who was likely in Wonderland when the second curse was cast.  I think the simplest explanation to this is if you were in it the first time, you're in it the second time, period.  If you were in Cora Dome the first time and still in the Enchanted Forest when the second curse was cast, then you're still shit out of luck.  Except those people came over with zero knowledge of the Land without Magic.

[Pangea]

I think the simplest explanation to this is if you were in it the first time, you're in it the second time, period. If you were in Cora Dome the first time and still in the Enchanted Forest when the second curse was cast, then you're still shit out of luck.

This was my thought too until they showed us Eric living on an island with Ariel, shouldn't he be in Storybrooke too?

[Mitch]

It's not just the arrival of magic that's the problem. It's magic with no rules. Magic supposedly comes at a price, but apparently that only applies to people signing contracts with Rumple because everyone seems to be able to throw around the jazz hands with impunity. If they'd just established some rules and limitations for how magic works, it would have been a lot more interesting -- like if Rumple had to be physically connected to the dagger to work magic, or if Regina had to refresh by inhaling the book -- and now it's running out of ink, or if there was some concern that Emma's magic would get darker the more she used it. Putting limits and costs on the magic instead of everyone with magic just having unlimited superpowers would make things a lot more interesting because then magic has to become a serious decision instead of something just flung around.

Totally agree that this has been the downfall of this show. But if you have to have magic at all, first get rid of the flashbacks (until a new character comes in) as I am on CGI overload,and yes, give it rules. I have posted this over and over again but magic shoudlnt be the same here (which Rumpel said for like one episode) and it shoudl be harder to come by, giving a more even standing between everyone invovlved. I like the idea that magical items from their world need to be used and they acted as if they were going there with Regina needing her book and sniffing it.  A great idea that Regina would have to use is sparringly and what if with a semi reformed Regina, the book ended up in the wrong hands? Its just werid that Regina can zap up anything yet she walks and drives to things, she could have cast a spell to make the electric work etc when the cold spell hit etc.

 

Its just messy and stupid and lazy on the writers part.

 

And for the second curse, has it explained HOW magic came with the new curse...it didnt come with the old one and Rump had to smuggle in. Why was there magic during the second time.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Mitch

[YaddaYadda]

This was my thought too until they showed us Eric living on an island with Ariel, shouldn't he be in Storybrooke too?

Right!  You`re absolutely right, he should be in SB.  I actually wondered why Blackbeard did not get dragged into SB as well.  I mean he was technically in the Enchanted Forest, unless Ariel took him with her to make sure he was telling the truth.  This is exactly why I've given up trying to understand anything about magic.

 

So, me throwing my hands up in the air because I'm a 1000% done with this!

 

I'm gonna try not to over think this show because nothing good comes out of over thinking it.  Over thinking it can only lead to loss of brain cells and IQ points.

[Shanna Marie]

If you were in Cora Dome the first time and still in the Enchanted Forest when the second curse was cast, then you're still shit out of luck.  Except those people came over with zero knowledge of the Land without Magic.

I'm still not entirely sure of that. Aurora didn't get the download because she was a flying monkey when she was brought over, but I really can't tell about the others. Robin was living in the woods, but he seemed to have a cell phone he knew how to use without any mention of anything like "the Regina button." It doesn't say much for the writing that there's little discernible difference between the characters with Storybrooke identities from the first curse, the characters brought over in the second curse, and characters who've never been cursed. I think it might have been interesting to explore how a Storybrooke identity would work if the real identity was never suppressed -- if you knew who you were but also suddenly had memories of being another person living in another place, would it drive you crazy, would you know it wasn't real and just ignore it all other than the useful things like how to drive and use a phone? The identities from the first curse were stronger because the real identities were suppressed and they lived in the fake identities for 28 years (aside from David, who had less than a year because of the coma, and Belle, who had maybe a month). It seems like Regina got some kind of memory download without losing her real identity, so did that mean she has memories of "Mayor Mills" growing up in Storybrooke, but that never really took because she was always aware of being Evil Queen Regina? She didn't seem all that shocked or surprised by modern technology.

 

Also, it shows that Snowing aren't living in a silo where they only interact with Regina, Rumpel, Emma and new found babysitter Belle.

That silo thing is yet another writer attention span issue. They only seem able to deal with one aspect of a character or one relationship at a time. Belle is suddenly a trusted babysitter for the Charmings, but have we actually seen Belle and Snow interacting all that much, other than in big group scenes? There's no evidence that they're friends. We don't see them socialize. Snow wasn't at Belle's wedding, and I don't recall Belle being at Neal's naming ceremony. But that seems to be because Belle is only allowed to really interact with Rumple. I don't think they've even thought about what her relationships are like with everyone else in town. She hadn't even had the "don't call me grandma" conversation with Henry until the end of the arc, two weeks after she was married.

 

Or there's making a scene do more than one thing. I mentioned this on the relationships thread, but that scene of Rumple on the verge of doing his hat spell when Snow, Emma and Belle showed up ended up being just about the relationship between Belle and Rumple. It should have been about that PLUS his actual scheme PLUS how it affected Hook PLUS how Emma felt about finding yet another boyfriend on the brink of death and realizing that he'd been hiding something from her (whether or not it was voluntary) PLUS the relationship between Hook and Emma PLUS whatever Snow felt about what she was seeing PLUS Snow learning something about the relationship between Hook and Emma PLUS all of them concerned about what was going to happen next and what Belle was going to do with Rumple. But the only one allowed to react to what was happening was Belle, and she was only allowed to react to the relationship side of things -- it was about him choosing power over her, with no mention that she caught him in the act of crushing someone's heart. It's tricky to pull off that much in a single scene, but it can be done. Mostly, it's about the subtext. A few good facial expressions can go a long way, and we know this cast can give that to us. You could get pages of narrative out of a few close-ups of Emma, Hook and Snow because all three actors have such expressive faces.

[SilverShadow]

For curse 2.0 they established you could physically "outrun" the curse, which Ariel, Eric, and Hook all did. This was definitely not the case with 1.0, which reached into Wonderland (Jefferson) and The Land Without Color (Whale). It's one of the writers' continuity flubs that annoys me the most. The second most annoying is Belle talking about Bae in one flashback when they established Rumple hadn't yet told her the day she met Regina.

[Pangea]

For curse 2.0 they established you could physically "outrun" the curse, which Ariel, Eric, and Hook all did. This was definitely not the case with 1.0, which reached into Wonderland (Jefferson) and The Land Without Color (Whale). It's one of the writers' continuity flubs that annoys me the most. The second most annoying is Belle talking about Bae in one flashback when they established Rumple hadn't yet told her the day she met Regina.

Yes, but when Regina reversed the original curse it was supposed to send everyone back to where they came from. So Whale would have been sent back to The Land Without Color. The only way he could have ended up back in Storybrooke is if the second curse pulled all of the original cursed, as well as anyone that got in the way of the curse cloud. Hook wasn't part of the original curse, so him outrunning the cloud makes sense, but Eric was part of it.

No matter which way you look at it, who did or didn't end up in Storybrooke is not covered by any consistent rule. I suspect that the writer's original idea was what YaddaYadda and I speculated (curse cloud + any stray original cursed), but by the time The Jolly Roger rolled around it was either forgotten while writing the episode or they just hoped no one would notice the inconsistencies.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Pangea

[snarkastic]

The only way I can make the curse 2.0 work is if everyone was brought back to the Enchanted Forest, including Whale, no matter where they were, which would be why Will got pulled back from Wonderland, and then anyone would be able to out run the new curse if they could, regardless if they got caught up in it the first time. I'm still more upset that Pinocchio, Hook, Neal, and Emma would have been brought back seeing as they avoided the curse the first time around. Especially Neal, because I can wank that the other three were just 'protected' while the curse was happening, but Neal was in Neverland when it was cast, so wtf. RULES, WRITERS!

 

What happened to Ashley's prince when they returned to the Enchanted Forest? Was he back to being a frog?

 

Wait. Is THAT what happened to Thomas/Sean in that flashback? I'm in the middle of a rewatch so it should be pretty fresh, but that was definitely not made clear. Or was this another time it was explained outside of the show.

[Shanna Marie]

Do we know for sure that Will was pulled back from Wonderland in curse 2? He could have been visiting the Enchanted Forest for some reason at what turned out to be a very bad time. Whale didn't have it easy in the World Without Color, so I could handwave that he found his way back to the Enchanted Forest or was brought there by the curse return.

 

But yeah, it mostly boiled down to "we want/need these characters in Storybrooke, and we wanted/needed to send everyone back" rather than any actual logic or consistency.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Do we know for sure that Will was pulled back from Wonderland in curse 2?

I'm positive he was pulled back with the curse because he was originally on the Guest List of Evil along with Frankenstein. I'm not sure why he was, but probably because he had a run in with Regina at some point. Everyone within range at the Enchanted Forest were pulled in, whether they were picked out or not. Curse 2 tacked on those who missed the first curse via Cora Dome. If Will wasn't back in Storybrooke, I would cry plot hole. I don't think Dr. Whale had any way of getting to EF.

Edited January 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

If Will wasn't back in Storybrooke, I would cry plot hole.

 

But then, someone like me who never saw Wonderland would not give a fig whether Will or anyone we haven't seen pre-second curse came back to SB or not.  The only reason I know Will was in SB in the first place was because I watched the first episode of Wonderland and decided I could not do it.

 

That being said, I'll take Will over Robin any day of the week.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But then, someone like me who never saw Wonderland would not give a fig whether Will or anyone we haven't seen pre-second curse came back to SB or not.

They don't have to show Will in SB, but they can't say he's just been chilling in Wonderland this whole time either.

Edited February 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[SilverShadow]

Hook wasn't part of the original curse, so him outrunning the cloud makes sense, but Eric was part of it.

Original recipe curse could not be outrun at all. Everyone except those in the Cora Dome were zapped and even if you left the Forest apparently it could track you down. So nobody should be able to escape the curse really. And what would they have done if Zelena decided to "outrun" the curse too? It's super sloppy writing. I could maybe buy people escaping by realm hopping since Snow wasn't trying to punish particular people but why wouldn't the spell have enveloped everyone in the Enchanted Forest. 

[formerlyfreedom]

We continue to see a lot of repetition going on in this topic; Magic in OUAT, Continuity and Timeline issues, and other discussion that have existing topics which are more appropriate. Going forward, the mods have decided repetitive posts/discussions will be removed.

 

Please stay on topic, which is discussion of the writers and the writing; if we continue to see posts that should be discussed elsewhere, we have agreed that the thread will be closed.

[Actionmage]

These writers have the attention spans of toddlers on crack.

 

"See? There was this pretty lady? An...An..she's The Queen! The Evil Queen! An Snow White was mean to her. An' her daddy. Snow White's daddy? And her mommy. The Queen's mommy?. An the Queen made a spell, because people were mean to her. So they went where there weren't no majik. Because she's the Evil Queen. Because people were mean to her.

" She had a little boy, but his mean daddy didn't want the little boy to stay with the Evil Queen, because he was mean. So she killed him. Because the daddy was mean, but the little boy ran away. The Evil Queen was sad. Because the little boy was mean, too.

"Then she found a baby and raised him. She loved the little boy so much that she kept him away from all the mean people who where mean to her. The Evil Queen. Because they were mean. Even the doctor that she made her little boy go see. The doctor cared about the little boy but was mean to The Evil Queen.

"Then the second boy ran away after calling the Evil Queen an Evil Queen. The Evil Queen was sad. Because he was mean to her. He came back with a lady he said was his real mommy. That was mean! The Evil Queen got mad! Because that was mean to say and do! The new lady chopped down her apple tree because she was mean! The Evil Queen got mad and sad."

 

(apologies to toddlers who can tell better linear narratives.)

[Camera One]

I wonder if they still write on dry erase boards:

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/564187084932390912

[Crimson Belle]

They've probably regressed to crayon.

[Serena]

They do still write on those! I remember a pic from - last year? Except they used different colored markers - each color corresponds to a timeline (one for SB, one for EF, etc)

[Amerilla]

Given that we mostly have to guess about most of this stuff, I thought it would be interesting to look at an actual script. A Rumbelle fan won an autographed script of Skin Deep at auction and uploaded a PDF, and there were a bunch of things that jumped out at me.

 

Jane drew a lot more connections between the EF and Storybrooke parts of the story than survived to the final cut.

 

For example, Rumpel is originally humming a little song as Belle prepares the tea in the Dark Castle. Gold later hums the same tune as he's getting his duct tape and rope in the Storybrooke pharmacy. Finally, when Regina comes to Belle's padded cell in the hospital, Belle is humming the song. It's not totally necessary, so I can see why they dropped it, but it was an interesting element.

 

More significantly, in the original, there was an "enforcer" called The Dove who goes on the rounds with Gold to get his rents and loans from various tenants around town  (we see him briefly when Gold repos Moe's Game of Thornes delivery truck). In the EF, there's a literal dove flying around - the implication being that this guy was a thug in the EF who Rumpel turned into a dove, and now that Gold remembers who he is and who everyone else is, he's having an easier time consolidating his power while he waits for the curse to be broken.

 

While Jane doesn't explain it within the script, it pretty clear on the page that there's a connection between The Dove and Gaston being turned into a rose - especially since the rose and the dove are two prominent symbols of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and beauty. It fits the theme of the Beauty/Beast story, and it shows a bit of Jane's perspective on Rumpel as a character: the thug is turned into a symbol of peace, the knight is turned into a symbol of love. Again, no great loss to the finished product, but it was a nice sign that at one point, at least one writer was paying attention to the damn details.

 

You can also see the birth of a long-term theme. Jane really drives home the literal and symbolic significance of Belle pulling down the curtains and letting the light in the Dark Castle. Much more so than the chipped cup, light has been a big part of how the writers and directors symbolize the relationship. I know there have been eyebrows raised over Rumpel periodically referring to Belle in terms of being the light in his life rather than the love of his life, but to the Dark One, you can see where "light" is a more emotionally-laden concept than "love." The directors often play with actual light in their interior scenes - alone or with people other than Belle, his scenes are pretty dimly lit. Scenes when they're together tend to have a bit more light or have her face more lit and his more shadowed.

 

With a little room to spread out, the script was a lot more talk-y and character-y. In the original, David follows MM & the Gals to the Rabbit Hole and has a long talk with Archie. You can see why it was cut, since it was mostly stuff we already knew or could figure out, but it was just nice to see them actually slow down and discuss stuff, like human beings would.

 

There were a few bits that were dropped that I thought would have given Belle a little more fullness as a character. Jane gave more exposition in that first scene - the relentlessness of the ogres and how they were going to kill everyone - which shows Belle's sacrifice as more meaningful... she's more obviously saving a large group of people from horrific, painful, violent death. At the beginning of the scene where she's talking about wanting to be a hero, there's a little bit where she's going around the room and asking about Aladdin's lamp and the Golden Fleece, showing the comfort with each other they've developed over what Jane defines as "month and months" together, and that eases into the more heavy talk about love and heroism and Rumpel's status as a "monster." Towards the end, right before Rumpel tells her she can go to town to get straw, she's talking about how much she misses Maurice, that she's worried about him since he's older and alone now. Not only does that speak to the tension in many versions of the BatB stories about a young woman pulled between her father and her (in this case de facto) husband, it add to the tension of her choosing to return to Rumpel in the scene where she talks to Regina.

 

Finally, Jane lets us understand Belle's perspective on Rumpel more much clearly. Compare the broadcast version:

 

 

 

Evil Queen: Yes, but no kiss happened.

Belle: And a kiss… A kiss is enough? He’d be a man again?

Evil Queen: An ordinary man. True love’s kiss will break any curse.

With the original version:

 

 

 

Queen: But no kiss happened. Such a shame, because it's possible that there is a good man there and it's the curse that is the beast.

Belle: You mean, like, the beast has us both captive?

Queen: That would be one perspective, yes.

Belle: And a kiss would be enough? He'd be a man again?

Queen: An ordinary man. A mortal man. Without powers, yes, but perhaps that's for the best.

Belle: Able to feel again, and live a normal life and look in a mirror - you promise this is true?

Queen: Oh yes. True love's kiss will break any curse.

 

Regina is obviously manipulating Belle to see Rumpel in a certain way, but it ends up sitting at the heart of their relationship: Belle sees Rumpel as an ordinary man trapped inside a curse, while he sees himself as a "monster" who can never be ordinary again (and, in S4a, doesn't even want to attempt to be ordinary again). Its the central tension in their story - which one of them is right? - and will only be resolved (most likely in Belle's favor) in the series finale.

Edited February 9, 2015 by yeswedo
Removed link - under review

[jhlipton]

I wonder if they still write on dry erase boards:

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/564187084932390912

I see a background of Jar-Jar [uGH!] Binks. If Adam picked this background, it explains a lot!

[Mari]

Given that we mostly have to guess about most of this stuff, I thought it would be interesting to look at an actual script. A Rumbelle fan won an autographed script of Skin Deep at auction and uploaded a PDF, and there were a bunch of things that jumped out at me.

Amerilla, on your opinion, would the overall story have been better served if they had made different cuts, or if they had spilled some of it into the next hour of the season?

 

Because the bits you shared are interesting, and do offer an interesting perspective on Belle.  There were definitely hints in the first couple of seasons that it was who Rumple could be without the Dark One curse she was truly in love with.  It wasn't  until season 3's "all of his parts, even the dark ones" that that seemed to be less clear.

[Serena]

I would give a lot to be able to read the original scripts for some of the major episodes. I find that stuff fascinating. 

[ParadoxLost]

I would give a lot to be able to read the original scripts for some of the major episodes. I find that stuff fascinating. 

 

Or the original pitch for the series or the pilot.  Given that they were planning to kill off Charming,  I can't even imagine what the series was supposed to be.  However, I do wonder if it would shed light on the tonal shift after season one.

[Camera One]

Given that they were planning to kill off Charming,  I can't even imagine what the series was supposed to be.  

 

Knowing these writers, they probably wanted to kill him off for shock value.  From a writing perspective, it would also open up more storylines for Snow since they could pursue a romance with her later.  The Curse being broken would be bittersweet since she would be reunited with her daughter, but she would have to face of grief of losing her husband.  I can't see how Snow could be at all forgiving of Regina if that had happened.  Unless they were planning to bring Charming back later, after Snow had fallen for someone new, à la "Days of Our Lives".  

 

I don't think the Writers had any long-term goal of the series, especially once they were given the green-light to break the Curse already by the end of Season 1.  When the series began, there were a number of very clear, possible long-term goals in storyline:

- having various Fairy Tale Characters remember

- having Emma believe

- having the entire Curse break

- finding a way back "home" to the Enchanted Forest

- Rumple finding his son

- Regina's redemption

- having Henry's father show up

 

However, most of these happened either in the Season 1 finale and in the first half of Season 2, and some in the second half of Season 2 (they all happened, but none had the ramifications fully explored).  And after that, what is there?  

 

Then, after those above "ran out", the next possibility in writing would be to give Emma and Regina love interests, which occurred in Season 3.

 

And now it's Season 4, and it's practically a dry well now in terms of meaty stuff to do with the characters, since they've glossed over it all.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

Amerilla, on your opinion, would the overall story have been better served if they had made different cuts, or if they had spilled some of it into the next hour of the season?

 

That's a tough one, Mari. While 'Skin Deep' is probably one of the better stand-alone episodes they've done, it was also pretty cluttered - even after they chopped a third of Jane's final draft away. In the context of a Valentine's Day show, it was easy to see why they put the MM and David stuff in there, but they ended up focusing so heavily on that later in the season, what we saw in this episode was superfluous. If you clipped those sections out, there would have been another five minutes in the show, room for some expanded interaction with Belle and Rumpel and Belle and Regina in the EF, which I think would have made a more complete picture of Belle and of what became Rumbelle.

 

There were definitely hints in the first couple of seasons that it was who Rumple could be without the Dark One curse she was truly in love with.  It wasn't  until season 3's "all of his parts, even the dark ones" that that seemed to be less clear.

 

One of the things that was clearer in the script was that Belle and Rumpel just interested each other. They were trying to figure one another out (tying into the whole "love is layered..a mystery to be uncovered" line), and enjoying that process. Post-Skin Deep, we see touches of that in The Outsider and Lacey, but the sense of two people reaching towards understanding, or simply feeling settled in each others company, completely died by the end of S3. Not only do they not spend any real time together, we no longer have a clear picture of what they see in each other, or what they want for each other.

 

In a way, Jane was too successful: she created a powerful force in Rumpel's life and made it plain that she was probably going to show up in his life again...but she also established early on that Belle had the power to break the Dark One's curse, creating the logical question of "well, then, why doesn't she?" when they're in Storybrooke.

 

(The whole argument that Belle was only brought back because Disney wouldn't let them kill their most popular modern princess or because Rumbelle just proved so overwhelmingly popular doesn't quite wash for me - the original script, written before Emilie cast and before Rumbelle was a glimmer in the fandom's eye, placed Belle in Storybrooke, which was pointless if they had no plans to bring her back.)

 

Because the wider story demands that Rumpel remain "dark" until they've wrung every bit of enjoyment out of it, Belle can't really fill her primary role of freeing Rumpel from this self-imposed, self-reinforcing cage he's put himself in. Instead of coming up with some work-around or just dealing with it head-on as a relationship issue, they've left it to dangle or sidestepped it by keeping the two almost perpetually apart. Deeply unsatisfying.

[Mari]

In the context of a Valentine's Day show, it was easy to see why they put the MM and David stuff in there, but they ended up focusing so heavily on that later in the season, what we saw in this episode was superfluous.

. . .

 

Because the wider story demands that Rumpel remain "dark" until they've wrung every bit of enjoyment out of it, Belle can't really fill her primary role of freeing Rumpel from this self-imposed, self-reinforcing cage he's put himself in. Instead of coming up with some work-around or just dealing with it head-on as a relationship issue, they've left it to dangle or sidestepped it by keeping the two almost perpetually apart. Deeply unsatisfying.

I completely agree on the David/Mary Margaret bits.  It fit Valentine's, but there was enough Mary Margaret/David/Katherine drama that I was definitely starting to find it tedious by the end of the season.  A few minutes less of it would not have been a terrible thing.

 

However, I didn't know that Belle was written in Storybrooke in the original script.  That's interesting.  That does imply they had a long term Belle/Rumple plan that hasn't played out well.

 

It might've been a better writing choice to confine Belle mostly to flashbacks for a much longer period.  If they had chosen to keep Belle's survival a secret and her separated from Rumple until after he'd found Neal, they would have had more room to write Rumple as fluctuating between good/bad/neutral, with him going full-dark when Neal dies, or when he discovers she'd been hostage to the villain of the season, putting his reformation back at square one, and giving them an actual romance to write, instead of the weird on/off thing they've been doing.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm starting to think that these guys have brilliant subconsciouses that come up with all kinds of amazing, deep stuff that seeps in around the cracks of the stuff they write on purpose, and they're too dense to realize what they've set up. I really don't think they're aware that they've piled on all these things until a fan or an interviewer says something, and that's when the handwaving starts because they didn't mean to give that impression. They don't seem to look back at the finished product and notice the little things that would spark most writers' imaginations.

 

It's ironic that even though they give us subtle material they don't recognize themselves, they also give what they think is "subtle" and doesn't come across as what they want at all. Take Rumple's PTSD, for example. They thought there was some deep, humanized characterization going there. They thought giving him one throwaway line with Regina about Zelena would be bring this message to the audience. But no - it did not. I have no reason not to believe it was him just being a selfish mastermind the whole time.

 

There's also Will Scarlet, who's got us all wondering... why is even there? Just unfunny comic relief? The writers say its them easing him in and subtly integrating him into the show. But it's not. They made a point in almost every episode that he lives in Storybrooke now as a thief. We get a couple hints that Anastasia is MIA, but that's it. He sticks out like a sore thumb, but without any real, prevalent plots the audience can grab on to.

Edited February 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

There's also Will Scarlet, who's got us all wondering.

 

The only reason I even knew who Will was was because I watched the first episode of Wonderland.  And that's it.  It did not get me wondering or anything like that.  My reaction was one of annoyance because why do we have this sort of character who is hanging out on the fringes like he is the next brand new shining villain?  

 

Their mistake was to assume that everyone who watches Once knows who Will is and no, they don't and no, I don't give a crap because I know next to nothing about him, his friends, his true love other than what I have read on the board and and and AND what very little I have seen of Will, it doesn't make me want to run to Netflix to catch Wonderland because they have done absolutely nothing with the character that makes me wanna go all hmm maybe I should catch Wonderland to see what Will is all about.

 

So far all I'm getting is that he is a character they decided should sound sort of like Hook.  He also drinks.

[Writing Wrongs]

After re-watching 4A, I am most annoyed that they decided to play out the Shattered Sight spell as comedy. I just don't understand that. Maybe they know people are tired of billowy clouds of curses and decided to do that? It was stupid and ended up being pointless.

[Shanna Marie]

I think a far better way to handle the Shattered Sight spell would have been like the Buffy musical episode, where there were some funny moments, but then there were lingering consequences because of the fact that in a musical the characters' true feelings are revealed in songs, so when the characters were forced to behave like they were in a musical, they were saying all those things they'd kept hidden. That meant it wasn't just "hey, it's crazy, and everyone's singing!" but rather that even when they broke the spell and banished the musical demon, it changed relationships because people had been pouring out their hearts to each other in song and couldn't take it back.

 

Shattered Sight had the potential to do that if it was like what they'd shown us earlier with Anna, where it was the bad feelings coming out without anything good to temper them. Just think about what these characters would say and do to each other if they were only able to access or remember the negative without any memory of the positives. Even when the spell broke, they'd be left knowing those other people thought those things about them, and it's not that the things they said weren't true. They just weren't the whole story. That's where they wasted an opportunity in having Belle sleep through it all. What would she have thought about Rumple if she could only see the bad stuff without the overlay of good she adds to her view of him? That could have ended up being what triggered her to start suspecting him, and it would have been more organic than the gauntlet that appeared out of the blue.

 

They could still have had some funny moments, like the Charmings squabbling -- it would have been amusing if their love was so true that even seeing the worst, all that amounted to was them complaining about socks on the floor or buying a cheap stroller -- or some wacky disagreement among the dwarfs that led to slapstick, but there also could have been some more serious stuff, like Snow and Regina hashing out their differences (leading to a fractured relationship instead of laughs) or Emma's parents saying what they thought about her dating a pirate (even if they've come to accept him under normal circumstances, if they weren't able to see the good, then they'd just think of the awful things he's done and not consider that he's also saved them).

 

But instead, we got a random bit of people saying wacky things, with no consistency about whether or not they believed those things, and it was all wiped away when the spell broke, with no lingering hard feelings. If these guys wrote a musical episode, it really would just be people singing songs, with that having no plot or emotional impact.

[KAOS Agent]

The discussion of the Frozen arc and why it did/didn't work in the All Seasons thread got me thinking about how the writers on this show have really written themselves into a corner. This show started out mainly featuring Snow, Emma and the Evil Queen/Regina. Snow & the Queen starred in the fairybacks and Emma/Regina starred in the present. However, after the first couple of seasons, I think that Snow White's story has been played out. There is nothing to explore in her past that will inform her character (and no I'm not interested in how Snow spilled grape juice on Cruella's coat and ruined her life). They refuse to write any actual relationship drama between her and Emma and by 3B essentially had Snow living out her happy ending having settled things with Regina and ruling her kingdom in the Enchanted Forest with her husband and a brand new baby on the way. All characters need to have a goal. What is it that they want and what are they doing to get it? That is the basis for all stories. Snow has achieved her main goals.

 

Interestingly, I think the same of Regina. I know every detail of every tear Regina has ever shed over her sad, sad life and now she's gotten everything. Regina's story could have been expanded had she too not achieved all of her goals. Unfortunately, by the end of Season 3, the writers had given her True Love's Kiss with her son, a soul mate who loves her instantly and doesn't care that she murdered his wife, access to powerful white magic and the general acceptance of the citizens she spent years terrorizing. Sure, her boyfriend is currently separated from her, but it's only a physical separation. It doesn't require her character to undergo a change in any manner. There is no emotional journey for her to take. Find a way to get Robin back and she's all good. There's no drama there. And since the writers consider Regina and the Evil Queen as completely separate people, further backstory about the Evil Queen is pointless as well. The writing can't have it where all the "bad things" that happened to the Evil Queen are relevant to Regina and all of the horror and suffering she inflicted on others have nothing to do with her. To make things worse with Regina's story, much of what she achieved in 3B was unearned, so any further wants/needs she may have can be really off-putting.

 

With two thirds of the main stars of the show having essentially achieved their goals, the writers are stuck with no real story to tell, but fans still clamoring for more Snow and MORE REGINA!!!!! and those fans getting angry when they write the stories of other characters whose every move has not already been documented on this show. Belle, Hook, Rumpel, David, Emma and I guess Will too all have stories that we have not seen and should be infinitely more interesting than life ruiner Snow and the misunderstood actions of the Evil Queen.

[Writing Wrongs]

Think of the fallout if Snow had told Regina instead of Anna that she didn't regret killing Cora. Now that would've been interesting.

[Shanna Marie]

Regina's story could have been expanded had she too not achieved all of her goals. Unfortunately, by the end of Season 3, the writers had given her True Love's Kiss with her son, a soul mate who loves her instantly and doesn't care that she murdered his wife, access to powerful white magic and the general acceptance of the citizens she spent years terrorizing.

That's one of the biggest writing paradoxes of this show. They clearly have a level of love for Regina that borders on unreasonable and that keeps them from being able to deal at all objectively with her, but they don't seem to actually like writing anything of substance for her. They breeze past all the potential for juicy emotional arcs for her in their haste to give her all the goodies. Her redemption arc should have been epic -- here's someone who has done all these horrible things, right up to murdering her own beloved father, in order to get revenge. That's a lot to come back from. But instead of showing the progress of her awakening to the fact that she was wrong and that all the things she did were for nothing, they seem to have just decided that she's good now, without any insight into her thought process. There's been no sense of her reevaluating her actions, no remorse, no regrets, no reason why she's changed. Have we even seen her realize that she was Rumple's patsy, that the real reason he pushed her toward the curse was so that he could reach his son without sacrificing anything? She killed her father because revenge against Snow was more important to her, but now she apparently doesn't want revenge against Snow anymore. How does that not affect her in some way? This is at least two seasons worth of character arc that they skipped past because they apparently couldn't wait to declare Regina a hero.

 

Likewise with the romance arc. She devoted her entire adult life to revenge against Snow and killed hundreds of people, including her father, because she thought there was no other way to get a happy ending, that Snow's mistake leading to Daniel's death meant she could never have love again. You'd think that accepting that someone else could be a soulmate would be a big deal. Would it mean she was wrong about her revenge quest all along? Did she waste her life and murder her father because of something that wasn't even true? Marian still being alive shouldn't have been the real issue in Regina's love life. She had a lot more to figure out than whether it was okay to sleep with a married man. But they waved a magic wand, threw around some pixie dust and declared that this was Regina's soulmate. Nothing to work out there other than the external issues, and it's considered unfair that her own past actions have kept her from an immediate happily ever after with Robin.

 

Now they're at a point where there's nowhere to go for their favorite character because she's achieved everything -- she's a hero, she's friends with Snow, she has true love (even if they're temporarily separated by that pesky wife), and she's so impatient for a happy ending that she wants to petition the author. What'll they do with her after she finds the author?

[Amerilla]

It comes down to the fundamental disconnect between A&E & Co's view of the show and what it arguably should be.

 

I think they see it is primarily a "cheeky," family-friendly action-adventure show with a fairy-tale twist. They use the whole "fairy-tale character" schtick as a dodge - these aren't representative of "real" people, so they're not necessarily bound by the normal, let's-talk-about-our-feeling rules of drama. They lucked out by casting actors who have managed to wring some actual human emotion out of poorly-drawn characters.  (As time has gone on, and the cast has gotten ever more confused and fatigued, I find that less and less the case.)

 

KAOS, I think a lot the main characters have become played out. I agree with you on Snow. Regina's conflicts are largely resolved. Emma met her main goals of breaking the Curse and finding "home" with her true family. Rumpel met the main goal of reuniting with Bae.

 

Every major point was wrapped up at the end of 3b. I think that's been a major problem in S4 - they're having to come up with increasingly silly storylines to keep the whole thing running. Baelfire is dead, so Rumpel has nothing to work towards but....world domination? Regina's no longer bent on destroying Snow and everyone Snow loves, so she's going to try to find the Author and - what? - give him a Magical Purple Nurple until he writes her a suitably happy ending? Ooooo-kay. And Emma....I'm not even sure what her goal is anymore. (I wish it involved intensive therapy and a course in law enforcement practices.) 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm not even sure what her goal is anymore. (I wish it involved intensive therapy and a course in law enforcement practices.)

All I see in her future is a Captain Swan wedding.

 

A lack of goals has been an issue for a while. That's why I was hoping the Missing Year would have been more about reuniting everyone than just hopping right back to Storybrooke and dealing with Zelena. This show desperately needs some sort of reset or game changer. It's starting to get too repetitive. I don't think the writers have the guts to do anything earth-shattering, though.