The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Oh silly me.  You're right.  An anvil just dropped on my head and now I see.

I'm glad I could fill in for Adam and give you an under-160 character answer that gives explains everything clearly.

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They designed the season for that reveal. Gideon's birth and being sent away and Emma finding the sword all occurred in the last five minutes of the previous episode. That was the design. 8.5 episodes of nothing was Emma's big arc this season by design.

One major thing that bothers me about Emma's arc this season is that it came out of nowhere. There's zero explanation for her sudden tremors. The writers wanted x to happen, so they twisted the plot into pretzels to get there.

And let's not kid ourselves - the AU was built to bring Robin back, whether temporarily or not.

Edited December 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Oh my favorite is this gem about who the person under the hood is: "Well, that was the plan from the get-go. It wasn’t a decision like, “Who are we going to put under the hood?” It was about designing the season to reach that point."

They designed the season for that reveal. Gideon's birth and being sent away and Emma finding the sword all occurred in the last five minutes of the previous episode. That was the design. 8.5 episodes of nothing was Emma's big arc this season by design.

[Mathius]

I just double-checked and I can confirm that there has been no usage or mention of the Land of Untold Stories since 6x06.  We've gone four straight episodes without it, and the only upcoming episode that might feature it again is 6x12, otherwise we've got all these other stuff to focus on.  This has got to be one of the most blatant cases of Adam and Eddy's ADD style of writing to date - an entire realm with many characters brought over to Storybrooke being a big focus of the S5 cliffhanger and S6 premiere, and after just a few episodes they get bored with it, drop it, and move on.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Mathius

[Souris]

Oh, hey, Jane says Regina apologized to Emma for ruining her life, you guessed it, OFFSCREEN!

[Rumsy4]

32 minutes ago, Souris said:

Oh, hey, Jane says Regina apologized to Emma for ruining her life, you guessed it, OFFSCREEN!

LOL.

[Mari]

So, we've now learned that Jane has her own head canon.

Didn't A&E tell us "If it wasn't on-screen, it didn't happen?"

[Camera One]

35 minutes ago, Souris said:

Oh, hey, Jane says Regina apologized to Emma for ruining her life, you guessed it, OFFSCREEN!

This was great after she tweeted that "an episode must stand on its own" or something yesterday.

I also loved this tweet:

Jane Espenson Verified account‏@JaneEspenson

@shadowhuntingDE It is an interesting story, isn't it? It's fun to see people exploring all the different angles and interpretations.

[Free]

4 hours ago, Mathius said:

I just double-checked and I can confirm that there has been no usage or mention of the Land of Untold Stories since 6x06.  We've gone four straight episodes without it, and the only upcoming episode that might feature it again is 6x12, otherwise we've got all these other stuff to focus on.  This has got to be one of the most blatant cases of Adam and Eddy's ADD style of writing to date - an entire realm with many characters brought over to Storybrooke being a big focus of the S5 cliffhanger and S6 premiere, and after just a few episodes they get bored with it, drop it, and move on.

It's what I was wondering about because the AU world spoilers for the midseason didn't match up with how the season started.

[Mathius]

Honestly, Jane is barely any better than Adam and Eddy, no matter how many good episodes she's turned out in the past.

[Stuffy]

2 hours ago, Souris said:

Oh, hey, Jane says Regina apologized to Emma for ruining her life, you guessed it, OFFSCREEN!

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a tv writer say. If it happened off screen, then it didn't happen.  It doesn't exist.  I don't watch the show off screen because there's nothing to watch.  Seriously so stupid.

 I'm to the point where I think it should just be cancelled.  Put everyone out of their misery.  I'd worry about the crew, but Vancouver is booming. I think they'll find more work.  Let the actors move on to something not embarrassing.  

Btw fan fiction also happens off screen, so I guess it's real too. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Stuffy

[Mathius]

38 minutes ago, Stuffy said:

I'm to the point where I think it should just be cancelled.  Put everyone out of their misery.

I still hope for an 11 or 13 episode Season 7 just because it will probably wrap things up better, but we'll see.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not fond  of making bad things happen to characters just for the sake of making bad things happen to them. Emma and Regina are the biggest examples of this. For Emma, we have to see flashback after flashback explaining why her walls are so high. Since she's the Savior, we have to see her persecuted without a break for just trying to make others happy. With Regina, though her problems are usually smaller, they're only there to make her unhappy. They don't add much drama to the show and they're usually dropped in just to tick her off and rejuvenate her victim complex.

It's all about forcing characters into certain emotions to fit the plot's tiny box and avoiding development or change at all costs.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

Jane Espenson used to be one of my favorite writers.  She even had a blog for a while to help fledgling screenwriters.  This nonsense is really beneath her.

[RadioGirl27]

Both Adam and Jane have been embarrassing themselves (and contradicting each other) on Twitter the last two days trying to justify the ridiculous mess that was the winter finale. For professional writers, they are doing a poor job.

[KingOfHearts]

The wish realm doesn't seem to have any rules or structure. Everything in it seems to be completely arbitrary. It doesn't seem to be an accurate depiction of Emma's mind, it isn't analogous to anything, and it doesn't follow any alternate timeline. What did the writers even base it off of?

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Oh, hey, Jane says Regina apologized to Emma for ruining her life, you guessed it, OFFSCREEN!

The characters should be making scrambled eggs or going to the bathroom offscreen. Not having life-changing moments.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Or, you know, if Snow is apologizing to Regina yet again, or making another speech about hope--those things could happen off-screen.

Pretty much 85% of what Henry does could happen off-screen, too.

But if Regina actually apologized, that should happen on-screen.  If it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen.

[Souris]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The wish realm doesn't seem to have any rules or structure. Everything in it seems to be completely arbitrary. It doesn't seem to be an accurate depiction of Emma's mind, it isn't analogous to anything, and it doesn't follow any alternate timeline. What did the writers even base it off of?

Some SQ sub/dom fanfic they all read.

[KingOfHearts]

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 If it didn't happen on-screen, it didn't happen.

With these writers saying things happened offscreen or some deleted scene was canon, how were writers supposed to do that 50 years ago? "This just in - scene cut from Leave It to Beaver you will never get to see is declared canon by showrunners! Just when you thought you knew it all!"

Quote

But if Regina actually apologized, that should happen on-screen.

All character development seems to happen offscreen... oh wait, not even that.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

15 hours ago, Mathius said:

I still hope for an 11 or 13 episode Season 7 just because it will probably wrap things up better, but we'll see.

I'm not so sure the writing would improve, they've also been incompetent at half seasons.

[Mathius]

7 minutes ago, Free said:

I'm not so sure the writing would improve, they've also been incompetent at half seasons.

I didn't say they'd wrap things up competently, just that it would be better than suddenly wrapping up at the end of the clusterfuck of a S6.

[Free]

42 minutes ago, Mathius said:

I didn't say they'd wrap things up competently, just that it would be better than suddenly wrapping up at the end of the clusterfuck of a S6.

I'm not even sure they're capable of that either, they've gotten worse each season, it's more of a matter of putting the show out of its misery quality wise (or what's left of it).

[Mathius]

2 minutes ago, Free said:

I'm not even sure they're capable of that either, they've gotten worse each season, it's more of a matter of putting the show out of its misery quality wise (or what's left of it).

I disagree, they somewhat improved in S3 over S2, then got worse than S2 in S4, then somewhat improved in S5, then go worse than S4 in S6.

If they get a S7 and the pattern holds true, then it will be an improvement.

[TheGreenKnight]

I generally think the quality was okay for most of the series if you ex out 2B and 4B. I don't think 6A has been great, but it wasn't as bad as either of those, imo.

[Souris]

Adam's been trying to explain things on Twitter. You may want to catch his tweets before he deletes them. Amusing/infuriating depending on how one views them.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Souris

[RadioGirl27]

Oh, yeah. It's actually embarrassing to see the way he is trying to explain/justify his horrible writting choices for the episode and how he is incapable of doing it: "It's a real place, but the people is not real, except Robin, he is real"

Edited December 7, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[Camera One]

Oh LOL.  Soooo the Neal in the Wish Realm didn't meeting the Darlings.  Did you all get that from the painting too?

[Mathius]

4 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I generally think the quality was okay for most of the series if you ex out 2B and 4B. I don't think 6A has been great, but it wasn't as bad as either of those, imo.

Disagree, 6A is absolutely worse than both of those.  

40 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

"It's a real place, but the people is not real, except Robin, he is real"

Did he really say something along those lines? Really!?

[Rumsy4]

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Oh LOL.  Soooo the Neal in the Wish Realm didn't meeting the Darlings.  Did you all get that from the painting too?

What on earth?? Lol Off to check twitter...

[Camera One]

Sorry I was just being sarcastic.  He said the thing about the Darlings in a Tweet, but all we learned in the episode about Neal was he died and he was on a painting.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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the message was -- love yourself as you are -- if you try to change via genie wish you never know what may happen!

So uh... Emma is supposed to love the fact she's going to die young? We never saw her "learn" that Princess Emma wasn't who she was supposed to be. She didn't seem to react to any of that.

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@captainSQloves @CSOUAT95 I said it a coupla times. Snow/charming woulda been great parents!

No real evidence of that. In the present, Snowing have taken unnecessary jobs and left their child behind while going on a life-threatening mission to the Underworld.

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the logic is that we are who we are based on our experiences. Good or bad

The wish realm is a very black-and-white version of nature vs. nurture. Even in Princess Emma's case, I don't think she would have turned into the wimp we saw just by how she grew up. It just doesn't add up. That personification was an extreme.

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the wish realm was "punishing" her for the wish -- which overrides biology. Be careful what you wish for!

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@captainSQloves I think a loving home is great. Our message is not about parenting. It's about what to do with a genie's wish!

Thing is - Emma wasn't stupid enough to use a genie wish. When I say, "I wish I had become a ballet dancer", I'm not selling my soul away to alter history and change who I am. Emma was lamenting her position because she was fated to die. There is no lesson to be learned there. The Evil Queen should have received the "punishment".

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@CaptainSwan861 @blowmiakissjmo we saw it as twisted wish. Not an alt history.

If it wasn't intended to be an "alt history", it shouldn't have been designed like one. The audience is going to perceive it as a curse-never-happened scenario. If it was meant to be twisted, we should have saw the other characters just as lobotomized as Emma. But, from what we saw, they weren't too different from their normal selves. The writers did not convey what they meant very well.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Thing is - Emma wasn't stupid enough to use a genie wish. When I say, "I wish I had become a ballet dancer", I'm not selling my soul away to alter history and change who I am. Emma was lamenting her position because she was fated to die. There is no lesson to be learned there. The Evil Queen should have received the "punishment".

Exactly.. it is so idiotic.  The Evil Queen was the one who made the wish, but Emma is punished for it?  Huh?  

[Souris]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Exactly.. it is so idiotic.  The Evil Queen was the one who made the wish, but Emma is punished for it?  Huh?  

That's absolutely in keeping with everything about this show and Emma's life!

[DigitalCount]

That's the aspect I kept tripping over. Why on earth would Gina's wish cause consequences for Emma? #emmaswandidnothingwrong

So now you don't just have to be careful what you wish for, but also be careful of what idle thoughts flit through your mind? Because someone else might find a genie lamp and wish for it on your behalf? "You are being punished because of a thing she did" doesn't work for me, unless they're going full sacrilege with that Savior title, and then it's not really something I want to watch.

[Rumsy4]

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Exactly.. it is so idiotic.  The Evil Queen was the one who made the wish, but Emma is punished for it?  Huh?  

 

48 minutes ago, Souris said:

That's absolutely in keeping with everything about this show and Emma's life!

And how Emma always ends up paying for Regina's mistakes and sins.

[Camera One]

In more interesting logic news...

Sarah Davidson ‏@Sarahndipitous6  Dec 5

@JaneEspenson so you're saying Regina has apologized to Emma off-screen? How are we supposed to know that unless we actually see it?

Jane Espenson  ‏@JaneEspenson

@Sarahndipitous6 We haven't seen it, so it can't be said to have happened or not.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In more interesting logic news...

Sarah Davidson ‏@Sarahndipitous6  Dec 5

@JaneEspenson so you're saying Regina has apologized to Emma off-screen? How are we supposed to know that unless we actually see it?

Jane Espenson  ‏@JaneEspenson

@Sarahndipitous6 We haven't seen it, so it can't be said to have happened or not.

This twitter exchange is literally the reason I picked this username for a TV forum.  The Schrodinger's Cat Paradox, seriously?

Why do I always pick these shows.  Now I have to go pick another paradox image in honor of this newest stupidity.

[Shanna Marie]

So, Regina may or may not have apologized offscreen, which means their current relationship may or may not make any sense?

They really do seem to be scrambling to justify this episode, and seem to be baffled by the fan reaction, like they don't get why we don't get their brilliance. I almost want to pile on.

[Souris]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, Regina may or may not have apologized offscreen, which means their current relationship may or may not make any sense?

They really do seem to be scrambling to justify this episode, and seem to be baffled by the fan reaction, like they don't get why we don't get their brilliance. I almost want to pile on.

Do it do it do it! My popcorn is ready!

Edited December 7, 2016 by Souris

[Camera One]

The fact that they're directly responding to this and the fact that they care so much about Regina actually provides a chance that we WILL see Regina apologize to Emma, so they can justify their continued friendship.  I mean, we're never going to have Snow be allowed to show Emma how much she means to her, and we're never going to see Graham's murder ever brought up again, and we're never going to save Aunt Em... but, we might get to see Regina apologize to Emma, because they care about this relationship.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

but, we might get to see Regina apologize to Emma, because they care about this relationship.

*Regina bumps into Emma*
Regina: "Oh, sorry."

Writers: "See, she apologized! They're such good besties!!"

Edited December 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts
Only Zelena would say "oops".

[KAOS Agent]

I'm deeply enjoying the ridiculousness on Twitter. Adam says the realm is real, but that wasn't the real Snowing. Okay, so then someone then asks if Robin isn't real. Adam's response is that "it's not that simple." Which is it? Fake people are fake, so no murder or it's complicated and basically none of it will make sense because they didn't think it through. Robin can't be a real person if Snowing aren't also real. They may not be the real Snowing, just as Robin isn't the real Robin, but if Robin is still a human person, then Snowing are human people who were murdered by Regina.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, Regina may or may not have apologized offscreen, which means their current relationship may or may not make any sense?

They really do seem to be scrambling to justify this episode, and seem to be baffled by the fan reaction, like they don't get why we don't get their brilliance. I almost want to pile on.

I can kind of understand why they are baffled.  Relative to other recent episodes its not that bad. 

What I think is happening is that the writers are supposed to know how to do AU and different time lines.   The viewers expect it to be the rare gem of an episode in the half season. Historically there is a noticeable resurgence of quality (ultimately unsustained) with these types of episodes and finales.  I think the writers are used to the general positivity following this type of episode.  But this time there wasn't enough fun and they didn't manage to shake off enough of the slipshod plotting and characterization.

So where they usually shrug off the usual criticism, this time they weren't expecting it and are scrambling a bit.  I don't think it will change anything ultimately.

[Camera One]

I didn't catch his "It's not that simple" response about Robin.  That truly is hilarious.

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Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  4h4 hours ago@FordMiss because the wish manipulated things so that it would be that way. This was not "time travel" -- it was a twisted wish

If in doubt, blame the wish.  "The wish did it!" is the new catchphrase for 6B.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Camera One

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

I'm deeply enjoying the ridiculousness on Twitter. Adam says the realm is real, but that wasn't the real Snowing. Okay, so then someone then asks if Robin isn't real. Adam's response is that "it's not that simple." Which is it? Fake people are fake, so no murder or it's complicated and basically none of it will make sense because they didn't think it through. Robin can't be a real person if Snowing aren't also real. They may not be the real Snowing, just as Robin isn't the real Robin, but if Robin is still a human person, then Snowing are human people who were murdered by Regina.

I find it hysterical that this will inevitably replace the 'Regina raped Graham' with 'If Robin is real then Regina murdered Emma's parents' and that they have no one to blame but themselves for stumbling into this mess.  How will they top this?

[Souris]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I didn't catch his "It's not that simple" response about Robin.  That truly is hilarious.

If in doubt, blame the wish.  "The wish did it!" is the new catchphrase for 6B.

We should use that from now on.

"This quote box won't delete! The wish did it!" 

"I didn't speed, officer! The wish did it! This isn't even a real car!"

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

I'm deeply enjoying the ridiculousness on Twitter. Adam says the realm is real, but that wasn't the real Snowing. Okay, so then someone then asks if Robin isn't real. Adam's response is that "it's not that simple." Which is it? Fake people are fake, so no murder or it's complicated and basically none of it will make sense because they didn't think it through. Robin can't be a real person if Snowing aren't also real. They may not be the real Snowing, just as Robin isn't the real Robin, but if Robin is still a human person, then Snowing are human people who were murdered by Regina.

Exactly.  I actually think I get now why Robin is young when he logically shouldn't be...he was likely created as an effect of Charming's wish for "the Evil Queen to get what she deserves" rather than the EQ's wish for Emma, so his appearance would not need to adhere to the timeline rules all the characters conjured up for Emma's wish follow.  But that still doesn't mean that he can somehow be real, but all the characters made for Emma's wish are fake.  That does not make any sense whatsoever, since it was the genie magic that created both.  If this Robin is a real lifeform, then so is Snowing, who was murdered, and Henry, who was orphaned, and all the people in this wish realm that Regina screwed over by releasing Rumple.

[kitticup]

If Emma has to pay for a wish the evil queen made for her, than Regina needs to pay as well.  Robin should be a zombie.

[janett snakehole]

I'm so annoyed that Adam is saying on twitter that Emma was "punished" in the wish AU because "be careful what you wish for". Well she's not the one who made the wish, so already not making sense. He's so obnoxious. In wish fulfillment stories, the "be careful what you wish for" premise always applies to the person who makes the wish, which in this case is evil Regina. So how exactly is Emma the one bearing the brunt of the consequences? Oh yeah, it's once upon a time. But it's such a damn faulty premise that it pisses me off. Since when does the price of magic get paid by the person who is the victim of the magical shenanigans? Even on this show, they argue that the person using magic is the one who is supposed to pay a price. I guess it's just Emma who that applies to. 

[Free]

18 hours ago, Mathius said:

I disagree, they somewhat improved in S3 over S2, then got worse than S2 in S4, then somewhat improved in S5, then go worse than S4 in S6.

If they get a S7 and the pattern holds true, then it will be an improvement.

I disagree, it's gotten messier each season, there are overall ups and downs and sometimes the b part is better and vise versa.  Imo, the last 2 seasons have been nothing short of a trainwreck and before that I was able to tolerate it as a guilty pleasure.

[YaddaYadda]

Watching the winter finale felt like a chore.

This is a fake world, but you can use a magic bean to get out of it! Everything is fake, but Robin is kind of sort of real. I'm gonna make a deal with Rumple because he's fake then waste that magic bean out of the fake world because Robin shows up.

Never mind that you can't make a wish to bring someone back to life, so that's a rule A&E wrote back in season 1 and then broke. 

No amount of going on Twitter and justifying this stuff will change how fucked up and how much of a mess everything really was. Maybe things would have been better if 6x10 and 6x11 had aired back to back, but I somehow doubt that.