The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[tri4335]

When is it that you think the writers so irrevocably lost their way?  Most seem to cite 3B, since it seems like everything afterward (4A, 4B, and now 5A) never truly improved on the flaws in that arc and even made them worse (at least with 2B, they were able to course-correct with 3A).

They lost their way from day one because of their writing style. They want the big surprise/twist and concentrate on that and pay no attention to the details.  It just becomes more obvious as the seasons go on becasue they keep crossing over their own story which results in the fandom yelling retcon, that a characgter is OOC or flipping tables. I think the GA pays much less attention to the story arcs overall and are not bothered by the contradictions. But those of us who are more involved spot these from a mile away.

[LizaD]

 

When is it that you think the writers so irrevocably lost their way?  Most seem to cite 3B, since it seems like everything afterward (4A, 4B, and now 5A) never truly improved on the flaws in that arc and even made them worse (at least with 2B, they were able to course-correct with 3A).

 

When they decided their goal wasn't entertainment but high-brow drama moral lessons and climbed on their moralizing soap box cause their views are so fucked up. 3A wasn't really course correction from 2B, so much as they temporarily got off the soap box, either to go take a dump or visit the golf course. Anytime they center an arc around good vs evil it all goes to shit. 3A wasn't really good vs evil, it was more Pan vs all these lost abandoned people, most of whom were his family and they didn't even address that.

 

On another note, did twitter lose their shit from yesterday's episode as the new writer predicted? I don't know for sure either way but I hope not cause I think she overestimated how many people care about Henry's poor feelings.

[Shanna Marie]

When is it that you think the writers so irrevocably lost their way?

The precise moment for me was when the camera focused on Regina's sad pain when her victims went to their first dinner ever as a family and didn't invite her, the person who was the reason they'd been kept apart. The show has had good moments since then, but the foundation is unsound and damaged, so it all inevitably crumbles. 3A was a slightly more coherent improvement in the main plot arc, but it was still underachieving and not living up to the potential if they'd bothered to really mine the situation. The cracks really started to show in 3B and became gaping holes in season 4.

 

So far, I think there's some improvement in season 5, but it's still built on that same foundation (Regina the Mary Sue, tearing down the good people), so I'm worried that it will end up sputtering. I also think that so far, while it hasn't had the lows of 4B, it also hasn't achieved the highs of some of the better episodes. It's been a long time since I've really liked a single episode, start to finish. Instead, I tend to like moments. It's entertaining enough that I'm watching live, and if I do my rewatch of the previous episode while I cook and eat dinner Sunday night before the new episode starts, I'm not skipping much. But I'm not coming away with any "oh, that was soooo good" feelings.

[Serena]

On another note, did twitter lose their shit from yesterday's episode as the new writer predicted? I don't know for sure either way but I hope not cause I think she overestimated how many people care about Henry's poor feelings.

As far as I'm aware, Twitter reacted from a combination of "That's it?" and "Let me tell you all the ways this is a double standard."

[legaleagle53]

As far as I'm aware, Twitter reacted from a combination of "That's it?" and "Let me tell you all the ways this is a double standard."

 

That and "SWANQUEEN IS ENDGAME!!!!"

[Mari]

Where did the show start to go off the rails? 2A.

I know 2A is acres stronger than some of the dreck they've presented since then, but I remember being so excited for how things were going to fall out after the curse was broken, and magic came. How would they deal with the hugely changed relationships between all the characters, and then being quite disappointed, because most of that has never happened.

I never got the "Rumple and Regina have to deal with the consequences of their actions" scenes I was expecting. The closing scene where Blue warned Regina? That never had a reasonable payoff. I never got scenes of the Charmings and Emma learning how to be a family. I never got to see Henry make a friend who would age with him. All of the characters seemed to lose several IQ points, as well as nuance. Actions no longer seemed to have realistic consequences. (After taking the fantasy setting into consideration, of course.)

There were elements I liked in season 2. (Hook, Cora, the David/Henry scenes), but it was enough of a drop in quality, that I was an indifferent viewer by the middle of the season, and if it weren't for the Necerland twist, they'd have lost me entirely.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

2A did drop a lot of the payoff, however I would blame 2B more. It was a bold move to go Team Princess and delay the reunions. It could have worked if 2B made up for it. But nope.

There was a drop in quality starring at the end of 2x09, but it didn't hit trash levels until after Cora's death.

[Mathius]

The closing scene where Blue warned Regina? That never had a reasonable payoff.

 

Wasn't the payoff to that Dr. Whale's angry mob coming after Regina while she was still powerless?

[Mari]

One short angry mob scene that's easily dispersed by David giving a lift speech (I think that's how that ended.) isn't payoff. It's hardly even foreshadowing of payoff.

[Mathius]

No, he didn't give a lifting speech, he and Emma just used their authority to get the mob to back off and they locked Regina up in prison. 

 

What other payoff could there have been in this case?  Regina staying in hiding longer?  Regina getting killed off in the first episode of the second season? (As much as we may wish that happened nowadays given how Regina is on the show, it just wouldn't have made any sort of dramatic sense.  Regina isn't Greg and Tamara, after all, she deserves a better exit.)

Edited October 26, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

What other payoff could there have been in this case?  Regina staying in hiding longer?

The problem was that the Storybrooke citizens totally forgot about it until they rejected her lasagna in 2B. We didn't see anyone plotting to kill Regina or sneak into her house at night. I can see why you couldn't organically portray this because more than likely it would involve her death. But she wasn't setup in S1 as someone who could be forgiven and slated to live another day. Many watchers wanted just desserts and her defeat because of how evil she was portrayed. That was even before all the village massacre stuff came about.

 

I'm going to take the rest of my reply to the Regina thread.

Edited October 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

What other payoff could there have been in this case?  Regina staying in hiding longer?  Regina getting killed off in the first episode of the second season? (As much as we may wish that happened nowadays given how Regina is on the show, it just wouldn't have made any sort of dramatic sense.  Regina isn't Greg and Tamara, after all, she deserves a better exit.)

 

Regina should have been ostracized. Why would anyone want to have anything to do with the Evil Queen?  

 

And Greg and Tamara deserved a better exit.  

[BoPeeps]

I think the general downtrend began when they couldn't focus on the characters they had already created (quite well) and they developed this obsession with adding more and more and more people with unfocused plot and shallow character development. They bit off much too much in their drive to include every single fairy tale/legendary/cartoon Disney character within a very short amount of time. They would hurry up and make an episode/half season encompassing new shiny blingy characters and left their tried and true people floundering on the sidelines in cameo appearances and one liner schtick.

[regularlyleaded]

Bringing this over from a discussion that was going on in Emma's thread:

But the writers wanted to surprise the audience with the "twist" of Emma controlling Violet's heart. The characterizations suffer because of A&E's obsession with "gotcha" twists

 

The thing is that they can still do the "gotcha!" twists, but they need to provide a little more explanation along with that twist. Instead of having Robin and Regina looking into the dreamcatcher and cutting straight to the scene of Emma ripping Violet's heart out, the dreamcatcher could have shown all of the offscreen scenes we missed between the flower meadow and Emma deciding to rip Violet's heart out.
[...]
I don't get why we had to sit through such a long flashback about Regina and Daniel that we've literally already seen frame-for-frame on the show, but not be shown important flashbacks of Emma's descent into darkness.

I think the mistake we've all made here is to think this storyline (Dark Swan) is about Emma. Logically and to us, it should be about her and this struggle, but that's not what these writers are about. Nor is Emma a character they actually care about, so much as her character allows them to revel in the story of they really want to tell - The Story of The Woobie Woegina.
 
Woegina is the pinnacle of Mary Sue-dom and this show is a love letter from the writers to The Evil Queen, Regina. If this storyline had anything to do with Emma they would've explained how Emma got from point A point B. It would've been shown, explained, and understood from Emma's POV. If the writers really wanted the audience to care about Emma/Dark Swan then they wouldn't be withholding her characters motivations for the sheer sake of wanting to spring a twist or a gotcha moment on the audience. If the writers really cared about the audience understanding where Dark Swan was coming from they would've show us why she's doing what she's doing. But guess frickin what? That's not what they showed. Emma's not actually the character they care about so much as she's a means of facilitating the other stories they want to tell about the other characters, and eight times out of ten that "other character" is Regina.
 
Think about it -- the writers took time that could've been given to explain Emma's motivation and struggle here to show us a scene that we've literally seen before, frame-for-frame, about Regina's oh so sad past. Seriously, think about that, people. The writers preferred to revel in Woegina's tears and show us how terrible her woobie life is and then have Emma apologize and sympathize with Our Lady of Perpetual Tears than actually write new material that isn't about Regina. The writers would rather have the first ball that Emma attends with her parents not be about Emma and her parents, but about Snowing showing Woegina how to dance and Woegina being the center of attention and literal guest of honor. Let that absorb into your consciousness, people.
 
These writers don't give a flying fart about writing a story about Emma. When it comes to Emma as the Dark Swan, the entire point of the character is to be the Big Bad mystery. It's not about that fact that Emma sacrificed herself for everyone else and took on the Dark Curse, nor is it about whatever is going on inside Emma's head and the total mindfuck that she's dealing with courtesy of the Dark Curse. Instead, the story is being largely told in service of Regina. It's about Regina's poor woobie life and how Dark Swan and all these other characters impact her. Hell, when it comes to Regina's victims they've been made to apologize to her and any character that's attempted any degree of retribution has been murdered and their bodies virtually spit upon!
 
Look, when it comes down to it, The Dark Swan storyline isn't about Emma. It's about how The Dark Swan affects everyone else, but most specifically Regina. The purpose of the Dark Swan storyline is about reversing the roles of Season 1 and making Emma the bad guy, knocking her down a whole lot of pegs so that Regina looks all the better. They've role reversed actual moments from season 1 that were, in a sense, small victories for Emma and they've rewritten them as victories for Regina. The writers have even given Woegina the savior title and have had the citizens of the town and Henry proclaim Woegina the new savior. Short of changing the show title from "Once Upon A Time" to "All Hail Regina", I don't know what more the the writers can do to make their intentions any clearer that this show isn't really about Emma's fairytale.

[Mathius]

Well, that post depressed the hell out of me with how true it is. :(

[tri4335]

Regularlyleaded, if I could like your post a million times I would!  I will never watch a show from these writers/showrunners again. I am only invested now because of the actresses/actors and the amazing preformances they are giving in the face of their characters being slayed on the alter of Regina.  My strategy for watching the show since I'm in a later time zone is to read the episode thread to determine how much fast-forwarding I will be doing.

[KingOfHearts]

A lot of viewers, even the more faithful ones, will call Once a complicated show that's confusing with a lot of moving parts. They find it difficult to keep up with. This is often attributed to the number of characters, fast-based storylines, frequent changes of setting and the nature of high fantasy. Lost was also hard to follow with its deep lore, rich characters and jumping plot. But is it complicated because its complex, or is it because the writing fails to deliver the story eloquently?
 

I would argue that many of Once's arcs are simple at the base. Rumple's dad kidnaps Henry to sacrifice him and the heroes have to save him. Zelena is jealous of her sister so she wants to go back in time and change her past. As the show has gone on, the stories have gotten less mature. S1 and S2 both had lots of subplots moving at once, but it didn't feel overly "complicated" until the latter half of 2B.

 

It's not necessarily a bad thing to be complex... but it's show isn't that. What the show is good at doing is taking an easy idea and over-stretching it. There are many inserted steps that bear no meaning at all. There's no flow of logic - it's just choppy. The plot is constantly moving without actually going anywhere, and this has some casual watchers scratching their heads. They feel they're missing important attributes required to bring the thought to a resolution, but those don't actually exist. The faster you rush past something, the harder it is to see the flaws. A&E have taken that notion to heart.

 

It's worth noting that many of those "characters" we see aren't actual characters at all. They're just talking nameplates, and many of them are duplicates of what we've already seen. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

It amazes me how confusing and over-complicated the writers make each half season, even though the timeline moves at a snail's pace and we usually only cover a week or two at most. There's so much plot, yet I feel like they accomplish nothing at the end of the day because most of the characters are either dropped and never heard from again or the big emotional moments are never properly followed up on. This show is like a living and breathing oxymoron.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

It seems confusing because every episode, they throw in new mumbo jumbo magical objects and requirements, even though in the long-term, none of it is important.  So in essence, the show seems complex when a lot of it is actually white noise.  Let's see what so far in Season 5 was actually pointless by the fifth episode, suggesting the writers are just spinning their wheels:

- "Tricking" Arthur into thinking Regina was the Savior so Emma didn't have do magic.  Well, by the end of the episode, Emma was forced to do magic.  And two episodes later, Arthur is simply told the truth

- An entire episode quest to get a magical mushroom to communicate with Merlin in the tree, and for Arthur to get Charming's trust.  Two episodes, later, Merlin is easily freed from the tree entirely and Charming knows the treachery of Arthur.

- An entire episode for Hook to help Emma get Rumple out of her mind.  One episode later, Emma has no qualms about taking a young girl's heart.

- An entire episode where Dark Emma contemplates killing Merida to get the Wisp to find Merlin.  By the end of the episode, they meet Arthur who knows where Merlin is.

- An entire episode "exploring" the Dark One's vault where we find out... nothing

 

That doesn't even scrape the surface, and we're only five episodes into the season.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Camera One

[BoPeeps]

They can't write themselves out of the massive hole they have perpetually dug themselves into over four seasons. To me, it is simply the sign of a cluttered creative team that has ADHD and not enough concentrated talent to produce a cohesive plot with progressive character development. Loyal viewers hang on out of hope (ironic, I know) and a fondess for individual characters.

 

In this TV world, that is probably enough to get them through to another season. But it will forever frustrate lovers of a thoughtful, well played, detail oriented story that makes good sense and perpetuates an intriguing story.

[FierceAfroChick]

Short of changing the show title from "Once Upon A Time" to "All Hail Regina", I don't know what more the the writers can do to make their intentions any clearer that this show isn't really about Emma's fairytale.

 

What more can they do?  Have the man that’s in love with Emma begin to worship at the altar of Regina.  Because TBH, Robin Hood isn’t that dynamic of a character…they need someone more swoonable to extol Regina’s virtues.  And per the Mary Sue formula, they will use one of the most popular characters of the show to prop her greatness.  Watch.  Pretty soon, Hook will be kissing Regina’s ass too.

 

Why else would they have a centric featuring Regina and Hook flashbacks/origins instead of, oh say a centric feature Hook and Emma flashbacks/origin?

[october]

Watch.  Pretty soon, Hook will be kissing Regina’s ass too.

 

 

tbh, while I don't see him joining the Regina fan club exactly, I wouldn't be surprised if the future episode featuring the two involved some shipper baiting with Hook and Regina arguing over what is best for Emma as if it's a competition over who loves her more, which SQers will milk for all it's worth and many CSers won't be able to resist taking the bait.

Edited October 30, 2015 by october

[CalamityBoPeep]

What more can they do?  Have the man that’s in love with Emma begin to worship at the altar of Regina.  Because TBH, Robin Hood isn’t that dynamic of a character…they need someone more swoonable to extol Regina’s virtues.  And per the Mary Sue formula, they will use one of the most popular characters of the show to prop her greatness.  Watch.  Pretty soon, Hook will be kissing Regina’s ass too.

 

If they go this route, it'll be much easier for me to quit the show.  It'll be the stake through the heart of my love for Captain Swan.  I want Hook to remain Emma's rock of sanity in this insane world the writers have created.  He, of all people, should never be swayed by unearned redemption. 

[Kktjones]

So tonight someone on Twitter asked Brigitte if she "shipped SQ." Brigitte responded "I ship everyone." While I understand her not wanting to exclude any fans, shouldn't the actual writers of the show be allowed to show favoritism to the couples and stories that are actually being written as part of the show? It's like when fans accuse Adam of loving CS and all I can think is - well of course he does - he wrote and created that couple. He's allowed to like and be proud of something he's written even if it makes some fans sad. Sorry for the rant, but I just don't know why Brigitte would say that. Better yet she could have just ignored the question...

[KingOfHearts]

"Shipping everyone" has many creepy, unintended applications. Hook and Henry? Emma and Snow? Regina and Gretel? Cruella and Snowflake?! If you want to accept non-canon ships, Swan Queen is just the tip of the iceberg.

Edited November 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

- An entire episode quest to get a magical mushroom to communicate with Merlin in the tree, and for Arthur to get Charming's trust. Two episodes, later, Merlin is easily freed from the tree entirely and Charming knows the treachery of Arthur.

Well, the mushroom came back into play...buuut it was hilariously useless.

An entire episode where Dark Emma contemplates killing Merida to get the Wisp to find Merlin. By the end of the episode, they meet Arthur who knows where Merlin is.

I'll actually defend this one since the point was never about finding Merlin, the whole thing was really about showcasing how the darkness (personified as Rumple) has an effect on Emma and can tempt her into doing dark things in order to get what she wants. Getting the Wisp was never the point, killing Merida was.

[Serena]

I cannot believe it's been six freaking episodes and the Writers haven't bothered to show Snowing interacting with Dark Swan. What kind of amateur writing hour is this?!

[Faemonic]

So tonight someone on Twitter asked Brigitte if she "shipped SQ." Brigitte responded "I ship everyone." While I understand her not wanting to exclude any fans, shouldn't the actual writers of the show be allowed to show favoritism to the couples and stories that are actually being written as part of the show?

 

"Shipping everyone" has many creepy, unintended applications. Hook and Henry? Emma and Snow? Regina and Gretel? Cruella and Snowflake?! If you want to accept non-canon ships, Swan Queen is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I'd never been in a fandom before this one where the veil between creators and audiences was so thin. I'm guessing that Brigitte had glommed onto the idea that the Shipping Wars are a huge, huge, huge thing in any fandom. Even though my own rule of thumb to survive that would have been Do Not Engage...frankly, Shipping Wars can get bad enough that creators can get attacked for silence. Which would look bad, because showrunners need our applause-plause. They need our applause-plause.

 

Vocally shipping "all consenting adults" seems to be the best thing, but I'm guessing that was difficult for Brigitte to quality under pressure when the only obvious thing is that shippers can get pretty intense.

 

I think creators will always be negotiating with the audience. The majority of forumers might agree that a parent who wrote about Sleeping Warrior becoming canon was whining, frankly, what with all the pearl-clutching and How To Explain The Total Nothing That Happened To My Kid?! But I'm guessing the Powers That Be in the industry still command adjustments accordingly. So...it's not necessarily going to be a matter of favoritism? It's a job. Storytelling is a great job, but it's still a job and a business. For that, I've come to doubt that anybody is really allowed to be honest about what direction they'd rather take. it's a collaboration, stands to reason that would come with a lot of creative compromises.

[Rumsy4]

I cannot believe it's been six freaking episodes and the Writers haven't bothered to show Snowing interacting with Dark Swan. What kind of amateur writing hour is this?!

 

It probably won't happen until the half-season finale, and all issues will be resolved with a hug. Funny: Hook, Henry, Regina, Rumple, Granny (all those takeouts), the dwarfs, Belle, and even Zelena have had direct interactions with Dark Swan in Storybrooke at this point, and the first three sought her out. But apparently her parents don't want to take the initiative to reach out to her directly.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

Adam and Eddy's love of "gotcha!" twists baffles me. Twists are so much more fun to watch, and therefore I would think more fun to write, when they are logical and organic, have lasting significance and meaning, and are properly foreshadowed. "Gotcha!" twists are shocking for the wrong reasons, they are shocking because they come out of nowhere with no rhyme or reason to them, and the aftereffect to seeing them is feeling frustrated rather than thrilled. Also, on this show, half of the "gotcha!" twists aren't even shocking because no matter how little they're foreshadowed, they're still so predictable because we've caught on to the writers' style by now and can easily guess what kinds of twists they could pull out of their asses.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Twists are so much more fun to watch, and therefore I would think more fun to write, when they are logical and organic, have lasting significance and meaning, and are properly foreshadowed.

I like to think of a good twist as an inevitable surprise. You don't see it coming, so it's a shock, but as soon as it happens, it feels obvious and inevitable because you can look back and see how it was set up. That makes it good for rewatching because the next time through, it's like you're watching a totally different story since you're seeing what's really going on instead of what seems to be going on. That requires good, subtle setup. It also helps if the twist is breaking the show's usual tropes, so they use your expectations based on their patterns against you, and if the consequences stick.

 

Unfortunately, about the only good twist I can think of on this show was the revelation that "Prince Charming" is actually the twin of the real Prince James, and the real Prince James was a jerk and is now dead. The revelation that Peter Pan was Rumple's father could have worked, but I don't think it was handled all that well. The Wicked Witch being Regina's sister was ruined by the fact that we'd just had an arc in which a famous storybook character turned out to be related to one of the regulars. Maybe the revelation that Ingrid was Emma's foster mother would be a good twist -- that moment when she appeared on the video was a good shock, and it fit the way Ingrid had already talked to her and ended up being important to the plot. Too bad we don't know if Emma actually got back those memories and how that affected her.

 

To these writers, a good twist is something that generates a lot of "OMG!!!!" tweets.

[Souris]

To these writers, a good twist is something that generates a lot of "OMG!!!!" tweets.

 

LOL. Very apt, given that the new writer today tweeted:

 

"Watched a super juicy episode at lunch today. There will be lots of exclamation points flying around twitter in a few Sundays. #ouat"

[YaddaYadda]

Her "OMG"  moments haven't really translated for me on screen so far.

[Souris]

Her "OMG"  moments haven't really translated for me on screen so far.

 

Yeah, given that 5x05 was supposed to break/explode Twitter & it was met with mostly a collective shrug, her predictions are suspect at best.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It also helps if the twist is breaking the show's usual tropes, so they use your expectations based on their patterns against you, and if the consequences stick.

I'd use Cruella as an example. Her story comes off the heels of Ursula's, who embodied the show's notion that even villains can get happy endings. With an episode title like, "Sympathy for the DeVil", we all suspected a woobification tale. Even half the episode acknowledges the trope by comparing her story to Cinderella and Isaac feeling sorry for her. But the ending showing that Cruella was a straight-up psycho who couldn't murder was probably one of the best twists we've seen. It was setup through 4B with her wanting to kill different characters, but never being able to pull the trigger.

 

We all expected hope, and what we got was despair. It stands as one of my favorite episodes to date.

 

 

That requires good, subtle setup.

4x11's irony is that the setup wasn't even subtle, yet there was no execution. The writing was on the wall in countless over the course of the arc. I understand misdirects and that sometimes what you expect to happen happens in a different way. For example, 4B setup Emma going dark, but used a completely different method of accomplishing it than what the characters expected. However, unlike the gauntlet in 4x11, Rumple's dark heart was setup over the half-season. Rumple didn't wait until the finale to say, "Oh crap! My heart is going dark!" and fall over. Now if the gauntlet came into play earlier, maybe it would have felt less cheap.

 

It's not Chekov's Gun if you use it immediately after its introduced. That is what we call a contrivance. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I've been thinking about how 5A is supposedly all about Emma and her journey as The Dark Swan, but when you look at the A-Plots and flashbacks for each episode so far, it reveals that we haven't even spent that much time digging into her story. 

 

• "The Dark Swan" (5x01): Arguably the only episode so far where Emma is the true A-Plot focus. Even though Emma wasn't involved with the action going on in Storybrooke, everyone (okay, pretty much just Hook) were focused on getting back to Emma. Then in the Enchanted Forest, we really dig into how Emma feels as the new Dark One during her journey with Merida to find the wisps. For an episode called "The Dark Swan," it better be focused on her! Main focus of the episode = Regina/Hook (in Storybrooke) and Emma (in the Enchanted Forest).
• "The Price" (5x02): Both in Storybrooke and Camelot, Regina is the big focus. In Storybrooke, we're supposed to feel sorry for her because mean Emma is taunting her about not being a savior, and then we're supposed to feel sorry for her again in Camelot because poor Regina never got dance lessons growing up. Main focus of the entire episode = Regina.
• "Siege Perilous" (5x03): This one is strongly a Charming-centric in both Storybrooke and Camelot. Main focus of the entire episode = Charming.
• "The Broken Kingdom" (5x04): The flashback for this episode was entirely about Gwen, Arthur, and Lancelot, so no room for Emma growth in the flashback. In the current timeline, Emma gets sick and most of the action focuses on Snow and Charming's fight and tricking Arthur. Main focus of the episode = Camelot Crew (flashback) and Snow/David (current timeline).
• "Dreamcatcher" (5x05): In Camelot, the drama is split between Emma, Regina, and Henry pretty evenly, with possibly Henry and his crush on Violet edging out in the end because his emotional pain was the big climax of the episode. So I'm going to give this one to Henry. Main focus of the entire episode = Henry.
• "The Bear and the Bow" (5x06): Both in Camelot and Storybrooke, the story is clearly all about Belle, Merida, and Rumple. Main focus of the entire episode = Bella/Merida/Rumple.

 

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing that the focuses of the episodes have been split amongst the large cast of characters. In an ensemble drama like this, it's necessary. But it's also sad going into the season thinking Emma would be a huge focus, and it turns out that she's just kind of helping move the plot along and not actually being given character focus. We've gotten lots of scenes of Dark Emma staring at Excalibur, talking in her low voice, and being intimidating, but we haven't gotten into her head a whole lot—especially in Storybrooke. We got a great look into her psyche during the premiere, but in the current Storybrooke timeline where she's decked out in black leather, we haven't gotten a single centric episode about her yet. That's frustrating because Emma as the Dark One is such an enigma right now and it feels like the writers are purposely not focusing too much on her in Storybrooke to keep up the mystery about her Dark One intentions.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

I am annoyed at how little Emma has gotten, but to me, the difference between total amount of screentime and quality of screentime can also be important.  I think the above time allocations could be similar to how A&E would defend how they have been using all the main characters this half-season.  But look at "The Broken Kingdom" and Snow, for example.  She had a lot of screentime in that episode, but very little of it allowed any emotional depth in the character.  It was all plot and superficial.  Even though Emma has gotten the B or C plots in several episodes this season, they were more emotionally deep (eg. Emma and Hook at the house, Emma and Hook on the ship, Emma and Hook in the flashback "date", Emma and Henry, etc.).  For me, another way to gauge quality of screentime is that Emma has had more Emmy-submitable material which is not represented by who got the A plot, while characters like Snow and Charming have gotten next to none, despite Charming's seemingly upshot in screentime.

 

Having said that, the writers have shown zero interest in explaining why Emma became Dark Emma or giving any convincing rationale for her actions.  In the flashbacks, they haven't shown any descent into darkness.  It was a precipitous cliff which jumped right to her taking Violet's heart.  They claim Emma had Rumple in her mind because she craved the power and she liked it.  Sorry, but saying it doesn't make it true.  To me, that's an epic fail in character development.  Which reinforces to me that this whole Dark Emma crap is just a gimmick and a brand new "reset" they could use to avoid actually doing with any organic character building with the regulars.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

Which reinforces to me that this whole Dark Emma crap is just a gimmick and a brand new "reset" they could use to avoid actually doing with any organic character building with the regulars.

 

Pretty much. I was reading an older interview with the showrunners yesterday and they touted how we'd see some of Emma's backstory early in the season. People got really excited about this, especially when they announced the casting of McKenna Grace. However, that backstory amounted to absolutely zip about Young!Emma and was just about having Merlin pop in to scare a young child. That's not exploring Emma at all. And it's terribly misleading for the writers to talk about that scene as seeing more of Emma's backstory. It's especially bad when they later revealed that scene wasn't originally in the premiere script. But it makes me question why the writers would tell the audience to expect something when they're aware that it isn't going to happen. It's like they're aware that people are interested in Emma's story and would be interested in seeing how her childhood would shape her version of the Dark One (just as Rumpel's early life shaped his), so they tell us to expect it, but know we're not going to get it. I don't understand that at all. Why hype the Dark Swan stuff if most of what you're going to show is Camelot and Merida? It's setting your audience up to be disappointed. And anyone not interested in the Dark Swan plot will be further convinced not to watch.

[Shanna Marie]

However, unlike the gauntlet in 4x11, Rumple's dark heart was setup over the half-season. Rumple didn't wait until the finale to say, "Oh crap! My heart is going dark!" and fall over.

I don't think I'd consider that a twist, though. It was sort of a "well, duh." The twist there was Emma's fate, where she prevailed against all the efforts to turn her dark, only to have that backfire against her because it was her goodness that made her take on the Darkness to save everyone else (even though they all seem to keep forgetting that). That was a shock and a surprise. But Rumple's heart giving out, in and of itself, isn't anything particularly surprising, twisty, or clever.

 

Cruella was a good fakeout of using their own use of tropes to subvert audience expectations. We're expecting her to be the woobified villain with a sob story, probably abused by her mother, who keeps killing off her husbands. Surprise!

 

I think Hook's turnaround might count as something of a twist. We had some glimpses to suggest he wasn't all bad and maybe had the potential to be better, like his behavior on the beanstalk and his saving and returning Aurora's heart, but from the way he acted in Storybrooke and from the way we saw him in all the "I must kill the Dark One" flashbacks, the last thing you'd expect would be for him to almost succeed and then decide it so wasn't worth it. That's a bit of the surprising inevitability -- I don't know that I predicted him turning around, but once he did, I could look back at what we'd seen of him and notice the signs that he had the potential, including little things like him kicking the fish into the water. On first glance, it looks rather cold and bad because he's kicking the guy Cora just enchanted, and then when you think about it, you realize he's saving the guy's life, that Cora enchanted him and left him to die, but Hook put him safely in the water (though not very gently).

[tennisgurl]

 

Yeah, given that 5x05 was supposed to break/explode Twitter & it was met with mostly a collective shrug, her predictions are suspect at best.

Watch in OMG amazement as Dark Swan steps on a dandelion! Because she is EVIIIIIL!

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think I'd consider that a twist, though. It was sort of a "well, duh." The twist there was Emma's fate, where she prevailed against all the efforts to turn her dark, only to have that backfire against her because it was her goodness that made her take on the Darkness to save everyone else (even though they all seem to keep forgetting that). That was a shock and a surprise. But Rumple's heart giving out, in and of itself, isn't anything particularly surprising, twisty, or clever.

 

What I meant was that the story's expectations was that Rumple and his Queens were going to draw Emma into darkness somehow. The twist is that her own goodness is what turns her, and it stems from a completely different reason from what was being told the rest of the arc. So while temptation was the misdirect, the actual climax was setup via Rumple's heart plot.

 

The gauntlet, while it brought us where we knew it was going to go through a different way, was never setup or thought through. While the expectations stemmed from elements like the voicemail, Henry working at Gold's Shop, or Belle's own doubts from Mirror!Belle, the device to execute was unexpected. But it wasn't because A&E cleverly slipped it in through what we'd already seen. It popped up at the last minute. A better irony would be Belle hearing Hook's agony while Rumple clinched his heart or his own efforts to ward off Belle's suspicions backfiring. 

 

At the very least, Anna's mention should have made more sense. "Oh by the way, who's Mr. Gold?" is a totally shoehorned contrivance. Even then, it was pointless because Emma/Snow/Charming had no part in rescuing Hook. It was all Belle. They didn't need to know until after the fact. By then, Emma noticing something's off added nothing. She didn't act on it until it was too late.

Edited November 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

What I meant was that the story's expectations was that Rumple and his Queens were going to draw Emma into darkness somehow. The twist is that her own goodness is what turns her, and it stems from a completely different reason from what was being told the rest of the arc. So while temptation was the misdirect, the actual climax was setup via Rumple's heart plot.

Oh, I see what you mean! Yes, they set up the twist of Emma going dark after she managed to resist all Rumple's efforts very well, both in setting up expectations and in laying the groundwork for his dark heart problem. I'd even say that the twist of Cruella contributed to the Emma twist because the fact that she was a psychopath and Emma didn't feel that bad for taking her out in order to save Henry subverted expectations based on this show's track record of woobifying villains and making the heroes look like villains for dealing with them. We expected that to be the thing that turned her dark. Really, they set it all up so well that the eggbaby stuff wasn't even necessary, unless the darkectomy ends up somehow playing a role in saving Emma from being the Dark One. So far, they seem to have forgotten it entirely.

 

The end of 4A was a failure on so many levels. It was as though every time they had a choice of what to do, they handled it badly. If Emma and Snow were going to be frozen when they arrived at the tower and if we weren't going to see either of them react to what they found, then why bother having them show up and even going through the awkward "Gee, Mr. Gold must be a good wizard in our world" routine? Belle could have handled Rumple, Hook could have shoved his own heart back in place, and both of them could have kept quiet about what went down, other than Belle saying something about what Rumple was up to and the fact that she kicked him out. Hook might not have wanted Emma to know how much danger he was in and kept that to himself. In a way, that's the way it played out anyway, and it avoids the really clunky writing and the question of how what Anna said might have led Emma to know that Rumple was up to something that very moment so that she had to rush to the tower. Or if they wanted the big, shocking moment, how about letting us see Belle's discovery of what Rumple's weakness was? We could have had Hook in jeopardy, cutting back and forth to Belle with the gauntlet, so that instead of that scene being from Hook's perspective, we see it through Belle's eyes, as she learns what Rumple's weakness is and catches him red-handed, about to kill Hook. If they were going to use a magical deus ex machina, at least let us see it being used. Maybe set it up as her finding it earlier and using it to help someone else, then after all her suspicions get stronger, she decides to use it on Rumple. Or after they set up all the little clues and hints that we thought Emma was picking up on from Hook, we saw Emma figure out what was wrong and go rushing to find him.

 

But what we got was badly set up or not set up at all, with the setup we did get ending up not amounting to anything, not even being good red herrings to add to the surprise factor, then was badly executed, and badly paid off.

[KingOfHearts]

 

. If they were going to use a magical deus ex machina, at least let us see it being used.

In my opinion, seeing Belle find the Dagger or harbor doubts thus ruining the "surprise" would have been more satisfying. When she was holding the dagger in front of him, most of my shock value came from fact Belle was finally standing up for herself. It wasn't unexpected. I remember thinking, "Oh, snap!" But from the episode's setup, Belle should have remained the focus. Rumpbelle was the payoff the writers chose to invest in, but there was very little structure or focus accompanying it.

 

 

The end of 4A was a failure on so many levels.

Many of 4A's problems lie in too much setup for the Queens of Darkness. Half the episode was spent on what should have been the climax of 4A's lingering plots. There was so much screen time used to introduce the gauntlet and build up Rumpbelle's downfall. But it wasn't necessary because 4A already put the pieces together via its own devices. Similarly to Regina's sudden epiphany thanks to Cora in 4x20, Belle's reasoning stems from a random event from years ago with a very cheap segway. (Zelena saying, "You're just like her!" and randomly finding the gauntlet, respectively.) There was so much investment within the span of 42 minutes for something completely unnecessary. 

 

If A&E wanted to skip out on Hook's heart, fine. But what they do choose to tribute effort to needs to actually hold up. The Queens of Darkness only really needed the final scene where Rumple meets Ursula. They should have kept the audience guessing who the other two stops were.

Edited November 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

This follows some thoughts brought up in a couple of different threads. I was thinking about the writers' propensity to keep the main characters together all the time, even when it hurts the narrative. For example, we have many scenes (at least one per episode) where the Nevengers are in a group, and everyone gets a token line or two.

 

When characters are paired off, it's usually in the same combinations.

--Regina has scenes with Snow, Emma, Henry, or Robin. 

--Emma has scenes with Hook, Henry, or Regina (and Mind!Rumple this season).

--Snow only has one-on-one scenes with either Regina or Charming.

--Hook shares scenes with Emma, Henry, and recurring/guest character, and occasionally, Belle.

--When he is not with Snow, Charming goes off on quests with guest characters. 

--Belle is paired with recurring/guest character, Rumple, and occasionally, Hook. 

--Henry gets scenes with his moms and Hook, but gets to branch out at times. 

 

Why not change things up? 

--Here's a novel idea: split Snowing for some scenes!! Have Snow and Emma even shared a scene alone since Season 3B when they were looking for the Storybook? 

--Why not have Snow and Hook go on an adventure together! Maybe Snow can get some insights about Emma from Hook.

--How about Charming and Rumple? They had some cool interactions in S2.

--Charming and Hook share a scene that is not about Emma. 

--Belle and Emma. Have they even spoke to each other when not in a group? 

--How about Emma interacting with the other people in Storybrooke like she used to in S1? 

 

The writers can insert freshness into the show by just having the characters interact in new ways. Instead, they keep adding more and more people to the cast. It's a shame really. It's gotten to the point where characters like Merida are shoved in with not even the pretense of a reason. It's mind boggling.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Selina K]

This follows some thoughts brought up in a couple of different threads. I was thinking about the writers' propensity to keep the main characters together all the time, even when it hurts the narrative. For example, we have many scenes (at least one per episode) where the Nevengers are in a group, and everyone gets a token line or two.

 

When characters are paired off, it's usually in the same combinations.

--Regina has scenes with Snow, Emma, Henry, or Robin. 

--Emma has scenes with Hook, Henry, or Regina (and Mind!Rumple this season).

--Snow only has one-on-one scenes with either Regina or Charming.

--Hook shares scenes with Emma, Henry, and recurring/guest character, and occasionally, Belle.

--When he is not with Snow, Charming goes off on quests with guest characters. 

--Belle is paired with recurring/guest character, Rumple, and occasionally, Hook. 

--Henry gets scenes with his moms and Hook, but gets to branch out at times. 

 

Why not change things up? 

--Here's a novel idea: split Snowing for some scenes!! Have Snow and Emma even shared a scene alone since Season 3B when they were looking for the Storybook? 

--Why not have Snow and Hook go on an adventure together! Maybe Snow can get some insights about Emma from Hook.

--How about Charming and Rumple? They had some cool interactions in S2.

--Charming and Hook share a scene that is not about Emma. 

--Belle and Emma. Have they even spoke to each other when not in a group? 

--How about Emma interacting with the other people in Storybrooke like she used to in S1? 

 

The writers can insert freshness into the show by just having the characters interact in new ways. Instead, they keep adding more and more people to the cast. It's a shame really. It's gotten to the point where characters like Merida are shoved in with not even the pretense of a reason. It's mind boggling.

 

 

I feel like we did start to get the sense of a 'different' pairing at the beginning of the last episode when Hook, Charming, Merlin and Belle stormed the jail.  Everything about that scene engaged me, made me interested in what was going on, and had me watching the characters interact in ways that highlighted their specific skills in order to achieve a goal that had a connection to the main story arc.  Too bad it only lasted 2 minutes and then the rest of the episode wandered off into Merida and Bellle go zzzzz...

 

I don't have a problem with the group scenes when they're structured well.  I liked 3A where Emma said, "Look, we have a fighter (Charming), a ranger (Snow), a mage (Regina) and a corsair (Hook.)  I will be the leader here and lead us to our end."  Sadly, they lost the flow in subsequent episodes and didn't execute incredibly well on the premise, but the parts that did work really worked.  I actually liked it in 2A too - the group was split, but each had a goal and a quest to achieve and I think the story worked, it was just a let down because we were hoping for some emotional payoff from 1st season threads and the writers never resolved them.

 

 In general though, this is how the Once writing team engages me the most.  I'm watching a fantasy show about princesses and magic and their intersection with the real world.  Write the fantasy parts as a big Dungeons and Dragons quest with epic adventure and love stories and characters with unique skills that they leverage to achieve the goal, and then deal with more quiet emotional moments and issue resolution from those fantasy plot points in the real world with a pop or two of fantasy to remind us that this isn't where they are supposed to be.

[KingOfHearts]

 

"So...Snow White doesn't have  chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No." And Adam finished, "On that one point they were right."

Whenever the network execs stepped in and wanted a story told closer to the original version, as far key details go, it has upped the writing quality substantially. Even though the Snowing saga derailed from the fairy tale quite a bit, it still kept the core elements. Even though Once adapted what we've already seen to the television screen, it never felt like a blatant rip-off or something unimaginative. We never got Snow White and the Seven Dwarves: The Live Action Series. We as an audience could identify with the basis, but we were treated to twists and more substance along the way. This formula kept it fresh without alienating the viewer.

 

Frozen was another example. While it didn't retell events, the important bits and pieces remained intact. You could argue that it was better because A&E were going off of already-written characters and settings. Which, yes, I'd say is a big part of 4A's success. At the same time, there were enough nuances to guard it from becoming Frozen 2. Ingrid was an excellent addition even though she was a mostly original character. She wasn't as out of left field as some of the more obscure guest stars have been.

 

It's when A&E attempt to write their own content without getting any good ideas beforehand that the show really starts to backfire. 2B, 3B, and 4B are all filled with plot that you can tell was not pre-meditated very far. The story was not designed with a middle - only a start and an end. Sometimes not even that. There have been a few rare occasions where an original idea worked post-S1. I could tell Cruella's story was well thought-out cover to cover. The time travel adventure at the end of 3B was a full story. Most everything else that isn't dictated by source material is a collection of random concepts balled together into what the showrunners might charitably call an "arc".

 

At this point, the writers don't seem to have any bearing on where they're going. They need a solidified plan spelled out for them in bold print to get anything substantial done.

Edited November 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

"So...Snow White doesn't have a chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No." And Adam finished, "On that one point they were right."

 

I always wonder if this is the reason why Snowing is so boring now — they were never apart of A&E's original "vision" for the show. The writers were willing to placate the network for a season or two, but once they kept having to write stories for Snow and Charming, they were like, "Oh, shit. What else can we do with them? Clearly, we can't work on their relationship with Emma with any real depth because that would be logical and fulfilling character development, so let's give them a do-over baby and an egg-baby plot to keep them busy and focus on our true love...Regina."

Edited November 8, 2015 by Curio

[Mathius]

It's when A&E attempt to write their own content without getting any good ideas beforehand that the show really starts to backfire. 2B, 3B, and 4B are all filled with plot that you can tell was not pre-meditated very far.

 

This. It's also why 2A worked and not 2B, since they planned that out while not having 2B planned out at all given that apparently execs told them to wrap up the 2A plot much quicker than originally intended, and it's why 3A worked since they had a solid idea for that story (2B was derailed even further because of that idea, but oh well.) 

 

5A is a weird case since the Dark Swan story does feel pre-meditated...it's just that for some reason the writers have decided to not bother telling that story in favor of random Camelot, Brave, Woegina and Henry's love life shenanigans.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I always wonder if this is the reason why Snowing is so boring now — they were never apart of A&E's original "vision" for the show. The writers were willing to placate the network for a season or two, but once they kept having to write stories for Snow and Charming, they were like, "Oh, shit. What else can we do with them? 

 

Exactly.  I think they can sustain writing for purely "good" characters for about half a season, before they resort to their only interest with these types of characters - to give the surprising "twists" that they aren't as pristine as we think.  Halfway through Season 1 was when they made Snow and Charming adulterers, and in the flashbacks, they had Snow drink a potion to become nasty.  Then, Snow got the Dark Heart in 2B and even casting the Dark Curse in 3B, both "oh you THOUGHT you knew Snow White" moment.  Meanwhile, Charming got his, "You THOUGHT he was heroic but really..." treatment in 3A.  And then Snowing both got the babynapping subplot to show they really were scum of the Earth.  And then more subtly, they just neglected the relationship with Emma to the point where it made them look like horrible parents, which continues to this day.

 

I was thinking about Elsa and Anna in 4A, and how well they were done.  I really don't think they could have sustained it any longer than that, since both those characters were innately good.  Even within one half-season, they already had Anna getting the Shattered Sight and becoming nasty, and they had Elsa selfishly condemn a whole town to sure death in a desperate almost futile attempt to find Anna.  If they are in 5A now, we'd probably see them smashing citizens of Camelot with ice picks for kicks (or standing in the background competing with the scenery for screentime).

Edited November 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I had a hearty laugh when I read an interview with Elliot Knight, who plays Merlin.

 

"I remember when I met [executive producers] Eddie [Kitsis] and Adam [Horowitz], and they were telling me about the show because I hadn't seen it at that point. And they were saying, 'it's so amazing.'