The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Shanna Marie]

They're definitely going shallow and wide instead of narrow and deep. Given how quickly they just got rid of Ursula and Cruella and how little they actually contributed to the plot, I'm not sure why they even bothered, other than that maybe they thought "Queens of Darkness" would be fun for promotional purposes. Now that they've retconned a Snow and Charming backstory with Maleficent, it seems like she would have been more than enough for this arc. Then they could have gone more in-depth with her, dealing with the Aurora backstory plus her history with Regina.

 

Instead, they're following their usual pattern of introducing a villain with a huge scheme, having the villain actually do very little toward that scheme, having the good guys be almost entirely ineffective in fighting that scheme, and then probably wrapping it all up in a very unsatisfying way at the last second.

 

I'd love them to find a way to do a home-grown villain or an offscreen villain so they can focus on the core cast for a while -- like, say, someone gets an object from Gold's shop that has bad effects, so fighting that evil requires them dealing with someone they care about. It wouldn't have to be one of the main-main characters, but maybe one of the frequently recurring secondaries. Or have the real villain be pulling strings behind the scenes and it takes a while for them and us to know what's going on, so we get a few episodes of the main characters investigating (and actually getting somewhere) instead of spending all that time on the villain. Treat it like a mystery, where we don't know who the villain is until the end.

 

Having four guest villains isn't a good way to focus on your core cast.

[Curio]

Now that they've retconned a Snow and Charming backstory with Maleficent, it seems like she would have been more than enough for this arc. Then they could have gone more in-depth with her, dealing with the Aurora backstory plus her history with Regina.

 

You know what's really sad? Maleficent technically has past history with Emma, Hook, Charming, Will, and Robin as well. And all of those meetings have basically been forgotten just so the writers could retcon an evil egg baby plot out of thin air and completely ruin Snow and Charming as characters. We got two throwaway lines from Emma and Hook about her dragon and zombie forms, but nothing else. Do we even know how Hook was able to recognize her in her zombie form? How does Maleficent feel about Emma driving a sword through her chest? And Will and Robin both stole from her. Will, especially, took something valuable from her. Yet, the writers blatantly ignore the history they've already established in favor of a new plot line no one has ever heard of before 4B.

 

It's the same thing with this stupid secret-keeping stuff. Instead of using a secret that's already been established for years on the show (the true nature of Graham's death), the writers decided to make up a completely new secret to turn Emma dark. Why not dig into your own history and create richer world-building and continuity? Instead of the Ursula secret, Hook could have admitted how he let Baelfire be captured by Pan and decided to save his own ass to get off the island instead of taking Bae with him. (That's all head canon of course because the writers refuse to dig into Neverland's history.) Instead of the egg baby secret, the writers could have dug more into why Snow's biggest secret was that she wanted another child. They could have built a rich story off of how Emma wasn't what Snow wanted in a daughter and that could have driven Emma to the dark side. I just...it's all right there! They've already established this stuff! Why not use your own material?!

Edited April 23, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Instead of using a secret that's already been established for years on the show (the true nature of Graham's death), the writers decided to make up a completely new secret to turn Emma dark.

But that would mean suggesting that Regina isn't so very good that she deserves a happy ending, even if it means destroying everyone else for her to get it!

 

Though I don't think that secret would be all that darkness-inducing for Emma. It might make her not want to be friends with Regina, though on this show, even that's questionable. Nobody seems at all bothered by anything Regina's done.

 

But it does seem like there's plenty of other material to provide the kind of loss and betrayal that turns people dark on this show, without it being quite so artificial. Add Regina's secret to something else that would keep Emma from having her parents and Hook for support, and then she's isolated. It seems to be that sense of "I have nothing and no one left in my corner" that seems to turn people dark. Regina went dark when she lost Daniel, she refused to bond with Snow, her parents were useless for that sort of thing, and she had Rumple whispering in her ear. Hook went dark when he lost his brother, felt like he had no one else, and he learned that the king he served wasn't who he'd seemed to be. And without his brother (and apparently without anyone else), he had no one to guide him through that tough spot. A wacky retcon of "we did a spell when you were a fetus because we were afraid you'd be evil" just seems so very artificial.

 

Really, "artificial" is the right word for all this. When you can see the writers pulling the strings, it's not working.

[KingOfHearts]

The repetitive dialog is a pet peeve of mine. I'm always careful in my writing to use a large variety of words and to avoid unnecessary duplications as much as possible. A&E overdo used dialog so much that it comes out as very trite. Some obvious examples would be, "villain", "hero" or "happy ending." You keep using these words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean.

Even Cruella's "means to an end" felt lazy to me because Maleficent just emphasized the same phrase two episodes prior. Then there's "going dark" for Emma. Why not change it up depending on the character? Say "turning evil" or "falling from grace" or "becoming a villain", which would be perfect for Snow. I know the writers know how to be colorful with language, but ever since 4A it's like the characters all share the same brain when it comes to choosing words.

Edited April 25, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I still twitch whenever I hear, "When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky..."

Edited April 24, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

I still twitch whenever I hear, "When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky..."

"Cleave myself of the dagger..."

[YaddaYadda]

"You're a monster."

"I'm a monster"

"Monster."

[Camera One]

I suspect that budget or the realities of putting on more than twenty episodes is the cause of the  problems and OUAT is the type of show that just can't hide the challenges from the viewers.  The A arc is strong because they get a break to recharge and they have real time to plan out the arc.  Its still shallow at times because this show just is but it tends to have really good ideas and great moments in almost every episode. 

 

The B arc is a hot mess with a few (one?) redeeming episodes because they are tired or didn't have time to lay it out properly and only the gems of ideas that really spark interest in the writer's room shine.  

 

 

I can't feel any sympathy for Once's writers, when other shows manage to make 22 episodes of cohesive, quality television. Obviously, pretty much every show has some dud episodes or stretches where the quality wanes a bit. But other shows manage to have their second half of the season not always suck. Something is deeply flawed in the Once writers' room, and they need to figure out what the problem is and fix it.

 

I thought they did a general map of the entire season in the summer during writers' "boot camp".  To me, that bigger picture is where the biggest underlying problems occur, from problematic pacing, to tacking plot twists on the board and slotting in characters to make that plot point happen instead of the other way around.  Lack of fore-planning leads to writing themselves into a corner or at the very least creating a garbled mess.  Lack of caring for character development leads to destruction of characters with ret-cons just to cause conflict, and ignoring natural character beats and moments.  They also had poor flashbacks right from the outset with "White Out", back when fatigue wouldn't have been a huge issue.  Deciding that everything would be back to status quo by the end of "New York City Serenade" after that huge "Going Home" gamechanger, or having 3 Queens of Darkness, an Author, Zelena and Rumple as antagonists for a single-half-season should have been obvious bad ideas in the planning stage.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the writers. I don't think their problem is a lack of time. Most of the flaws in the writing of this series come back to poor technique. I don't know what their backgrounds are or how they got their jobs or how they keep their jobs, but I find it hard to believe that it has that much to do with the quality of their week-to-week output. They did come up with a brilliant concept, may have had a great pitch and the connections to get it heard, and they had a great pilot -- but even there, they thought they were clever in having Prince Charming die, and it took someone at the network to talk them down from that tree. That right there should have been a sign.

 

Problem #1: Bad Mary Sue writing. This may be one of the worst cases of a Mary Sue outside of fanfiction. These writers have lost all sense of objectivity about Regina, to the point that the universe warps itself around her. It doesn't help that this gets reinforced by the loudest fans. I'd say about 90 percent of the flaws in this show come down to the Mary Sue problem. The entire bungled 4B arc is due to this weird idea that Regina doesn't have a happy ending and deserves one to the point that they're willing to do all kinds of crazy things to make it happen, even at cost to other people.

 

Problem #2: Very shallow writing, largely due to fratboy ADD tendencies. When this show is at its best, it's because it has great actors playing great characters, and they sometimes have these incredible moments of connection, where we see the humanity behind the fairy tale figures. But for some bizarre reason, they seem to be afraid of these moments and consider them boring. Instead, they'll throw in yet another villain, add some fireballs and race the plot ahead to get to the next big surprise twist. They're so eager to get to the next big moment that they don't bother to set it up, and then after it happens they rush on to the next big thing rather than letting there be any emotional payoff. They mistake kisses for emotions.

 

These two things added together mean that they don't bother with consequences, the characters aren't allowed to react like real people with real emotions, and they skim the surface with a lot of noise but don't develop anything in full.

 

Fix these two things, and then the rest of it should all fall in line. You get the best springboard to the next plot by adequately digging into the consequences of the previous plot. If you let yourself find the depth and work with it, you won't run out of ideas and you won't have that B-side of the season drag. Instead, you'll have momentum pushing you forward.

[Zuleikha]

The entire bungled 4B arc is due to this weird idea that Regina doesn't have a happy ending and deserves one to the point that they're willing to do all kinds of crazy things to make it happen, even at cost to other people.

 

 

Even if everyone didn't care about Regina's happy ending, they still would be doing exactly what they're doing because they do care about Rumple not getting the power to take away heroes' happy endings and driving Emma dark. And Regina would still have told them about that because she was sent undercover by Snow because Snow was scared about her secret eggnapping history with Maleficent getting out and back to Emma. Emma and Regina let Cruella and Ursula into Storybrooke for the same reason Regina let Zelena live; to extend the same chance for redemption to other villains that Regina felt she'd been offered. The only things in the 4B that directly relate to Regina's quest for her happy ending are Regina yelling at Pinocchio resulting in her apologizing to Gepetto resulting in Team Charming gaining possession over the author's page. 

 

To me, that's one of the problems. 4B was set up with Regina's quest being the unified plot, but she's driven precious little of the action. Like way too much on the show, the author action is being driven by Rumplestiltskin. 4B is bungled because there are too many villains; people's motivations are too mysterious and/or retconned; and the pacing is way off. For example, Maleficent threatened Snowing what... 3 episodes into the arc? And yet there has been zero follow through on that. She hasn't gone after them or either of their children nor has there been any indication that she's plotting some kind of slow burn. We knew nothing about Ursula's motivation until her centric, which then promptly wrote her out of the present action. We still have no idea how she expected working with Rumple to help her get her singing voice back or why she completely ignored Hook when Hook was the last person who knew what happened to it. Cruella was suddenly desperate to the point of rash action this episode, but we had no lead in to that and it's still a little unclear to me what triggered it. Rumple capturing Regina was a big deal until it completely wasn't. Rumple's original plan logically must be falling apart down his ears, but he doesn't care, possibly because he knows that the real writers of the show are making sure everything goes the way he needs it to go anyway. The Author ran from Emma and Snowing rather than sat down and talked to them because... why exactly? I'm actually less clear about that post-Cruella than I was before.

 

We also practically know less about the Sorcerer, the Sorcerer's Apprentice, the freaking hat, the books, and what the Author is doing than we did before the arc started. The only meaningful information we've been given is that the Author's magic ink and quill can change reality, but the Author isn't ever supposed to actually do it. The Author is supposed to record stories, which apparently consists of going randomly from realm to realm trying to interview people. 

 

None of that has anything to do with Regina. My best guess for what happened is the creative team had a series of plot points that seemed really cool to them, including Emma goes dark and the Queens of Darkness. They mapped out some basic connections in an outline form, but when it came time to write the actual episodes to flesh things out, just couldn't make it gel. I think every arc, including s1, has had some of the problems in 4B but 4B is the perfect storm. This actually gives me hope for 5A because I don't things can possibly go this wrong on an arc-level again. (although FWIW, I do still genuinely, non-ironically enjoy the show almost every week)

[Camera One]

For once, I don't think this arc's biggest problem is the writers' preoccupation with Regina, especially compared to 3B.  I thought bandwagon-joining of all the characters leaping on Operation Mongoose was more unbelievable and egregious and that happened mostly in 4A and especially in "Heroes and Villains".  Now that we're in the midst of 4B, giving Regina a happy ending seems to be pushed to the background as random distraction after random distraction takes over on a weekly basis.  Maybe because the problems with 4B run so much deeper, starting with the Author plot making no sense and becoming more convoluted with every episode.  The character assassination of Snow and Charming might have been a continuation of the writers' attempt to even the moral playing field, though.  I like that Regina has been pretty sympathetic to them, with zero snark about what they did to Maleficent's egg, at least so far.  I think they are handling the Regina redemption a lot better and with more natural progression than they have previously.  

[KAOS Agent]

The entire bungled 4B arc is due to this weird idea that Regina doesn't have a happy ending and deserves one to the point that they're willing to do all kinds of crazy things to make it happen, even at cost to other people.

 

Even that part doesn't make any sense because Regina thinks Robin is her happy ending and in the first episode of 4B, they realize they can use the scroll to come and go from town. Robin had already chosen Regina, so that's not the issue. Go get him, build a cabin just outside of town for Marian to live in and voila happy ending. So why the hell was she still going on about finding the author after that? If your basic premise for why Team Hero is in search of the author is blown up in the first episode, your story is in deep trouble. This is the writing fail.

 

 

Rumple's original plan logically must be falling apart down his ears, but he doesn't care, possibly because he knows that the real writers of the show are making sure everything goes the way he needs it to go anyway.

 

I think Rumpel's plan isn't what everyone else thinks Rumpel's plan is (or what he's told other people it is) and that's why things are weird with him. However, that needs to be explained in the narrative in some way. Like we need some sort of hint that he's playing games with everyone and his real plan is something else. I mean, I could be wrong but it seems too straightforward to me and I expect the writers to throw in some stupid twist that turns everything on its head and I'm supposed to be so impressed by being tricked instead of vastly annoyed about how we wasted so much time on a bunch of crap that mattered not a bit. Hell even if his plan is exactly what we think it is, there's still a huge amount of wasted time on random stuff that means nothing. 

 

They built up one story, then cut it off to tell us some other random story about Zelena and then cut that off for another couple episodes to go back to the other story, but not really because we needed backstory on a soon to be dead character and now we're off to find yet another new character because this story couldn't possibly be any messier or rambling or disconnected. It's like the writers put a whole bunch of ideas in a hat and are inputting them Mad Libs style into some weird semblance of a story.

Edited April 24, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I mean, I could be wrong but it seems too straightforward to me and I expect the writers to throw in some stupid twist that turns everything on its head and I'm supposed to be so impressed by being tricked instead of vastly annoyed about how we wasted so much time on a bunch of crap that mattered not a bit. Hell even if his plan is exactly what we think it is, there's still a huge amount of wasted time on random stuff that means nothing. 

 

Me too.  Even if this turns out to be the case, it still doesn't make 4B okay and does not make up for the damage they have done, but at least I would be able to look back on this half-season as not a complete jump-the-shark disaster.  If the only twist was that stupid "Rumple has a black heart and he might die", then there's no hope.  I cannot see where the characters can even go in 5A after this mess.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Camera One

[buildmeupbuttercup]

It almost seems like in 4B, more so than other arcs, they had so many storylines to cover (I count at least 7-8 main "plots" they are trying to cram into these 11 episodes) they sent each writing duo off to write however many number of episodes they were assigned and they were kept completely isolated from each other because the episodes are coming off so disjointed. I also wonder if you sat any one of the writers down for 10 minutes could they coherently explain the author plot because every episode seems to create new elements that make it contradictory.

 

I'm really hoping they see their mistakes, learn from this, and focus more of season 5 on the characters rather than the plot. Because no matter how many times they try to tell me, I refuse to believe 4B has gotten back to focusing on the "core characters" more.

 

[Shanna Marie]

I do think that the 4B mess can be largely traced back to the Regina Mary Sue issue. If they were at all objective about this character, either they never would have come up with the "it's the book's fault!" concept, or when she said it, Henry would have responded more like, "But the book ended with you casting the curse. How does it have anything to do with what's happening now?" And then they'd have had to find another concept to base a plot on. But instead, they had to take this whim seriously and use it as a real plot, and that meant throwing all kinds of other nonsense at it to back it up. Since the concept is about how villains can't get happy endings, that means we need lots of villains, and now all the villains have this idea that they need to get some Author to change things for them and it's treated like it's a real thing that they've believed all along. And then to kill the argument that the heroes have lives worse than a lot of the villains, we have to see that the heroes aren't really heroes. And maybe the heroes can be turned dark. Even if it does turn out that Rumple is manipulating it all and has a plan that has nothing to do with the book or the Author, they have actually shown that there is an Author who can change events, so that much of Regina's original thesis is true.

 

And meanwhile everything keeps twisting itself into knots around Regina -- Marian was really dead all along so she didn't commit adultery, Snow and David are just as bad as she is (or worse) and Emma trusts her more, other villains can be redeemed by atoning for their crimes or getting over their issues but somehow Regina can never be happy without the Author changing things (and she hasn't even tried atoning). You get a huge logical mess when one particular character always has to end up being right or looking good, even when that conflicts with what happens to other characters.

[Curio]

And then to kill the argument that the heroes have lives worse than a lot of the villains, we have to see that the heroes aren't really heroes. And maybe the heroes can be turned dark.

 

Doesn't that completely ruin Regina's entire argument? If heroes can be turned dark, the heroes aren't getting their happy endings. Shouldn't Regina see how crappy Emma has been looking lately and realize that Emma being miserable right now means that Regina isn't the only person this author has a vendetta against? That it's not just "villains can't get happy endings?" Do the writers know how deep of a hole they dug themselves in to? Why hasn't the mission changed from: "Let's get Regina her happy ending!" to: "Let's find the author so he can give everyone their happy endings!"?

 

Even if everyone didn't care about Regina's happy ending, they still would be doing exactly what they're doing because they do care about Rumple not getting the power to take away heroes' happy endings and driving Emma dark.

 

If we're going to get into technicalities, then we actually have to blame this entire 4B nonsense and the author storyline on Regina. She was the one early in Season 4 who randomly came up with this author/story book hypothesis out of the blue and ran with it. No other character in the show had thought of that idea until then. Rumple didn't even think of using the author for Emma's dark heart or for whatever mystery plan he's doing until he had the conversation in Regina's car during Heroes and Villains. I took this quote from an interview Eddy did before 4B that Rumple didn't think of the author until Regina brought it up:

 

[Rumple]'s thinking that maybe Regina (Lana Parrilla) isn't so crazy - that if he can find the Author (of Henry's storybook), perhaps even villains can have their happy ending.

 

To me, that sounds like Rumple hadn't thought of the author as a possibility before talking with Regina, and even if he had, he considered it crazy nonsense. Which it should be considered, but alas...

 

I desperately want to break into the Once's writers room and have them explain this plot to me until I understand it. The plot shouldn't be so muddled to the point where no one in the audience can agree on what the hell is going on or where it's meant to go.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Curio

[Zuleikha]

If they were at all objective about this character, either they never would have come up with the "it's the book's fault!" concept, or when she said it, Henry would have responded more like, "But the book ended with you casting the curse. How does it have anything to do with what's happening now?"

 

The writers came up with the book concept because they wanted to write an arc centered on it. Since the season isn't over yet, we can't really guess at inspired them to do it. But it obviously wasn't because they wanted to explore Regina's redemption because they haven't used the book to try and do that. They used Regina to lead into the book because she was a convenient character to do it. Had some hand from on high came down and forced them to do it a different way, they easily could have by having Henry or another character discover the (still unexplained) blank books in the Sorcerer's mansion. Regina could be removed from the events of the Author plot line with very little changing, which is good sign that it has nothing to do with her and which is part of what I find infuriating about how the arc was set up versus how it was executed. I WISH 4B had everything to do with Regina.

 

That would also be so out of character for Henry to respond to Regina like that.

 

To me, that sounds like Rumple hadn't thought of the author as a possibility before talking with Regina, and even if he had, he considered it crazy nonsense. Which it should be considered, but alas...

 

 

If Rumple is really supposed to have never heard of idea of the Author until then, it makes his current level of expertise in all things Author-related even more infuriating. He was in non-magical New York City, sick and dying for at least part of the time! How on earth would he have been able to learn so much to now be the ultimate expert on the Author? 

 

It's also not like Regina suggested the possibility to Rumple as a way to help him figure out more chaos to wreak on Storybrooke or even that she was suggesting something completely new to him. Rumple used "villains don't get happy endings" sincerely at the end of 3A when he killed Pan, but perhaps the writers of the show forgot about that.

[Shanna Marie]

That would also be so out of character for Henry to respond to Regina like that.

Would it? Henry has believed from the beginning that the good guys have to win. He's also been calling Regina a hero ever since they decided to whitewash that relationship instead of dealing with it. It seems more out of character for Henry to lump Regina in with the villains and think that means she's not allowed to win because he believes she really has changed and is now 100 percent hero. Plus, this is a kid who, just days before the scene in question, experienced a True Love's Kiss with Regina, which should mean that she's found her happy ending and counts as a hero, and he was angry at her for acting like she couldn't be happy because she'd lost Robin. So it seems like it would have been more consistent with his established character to say, "But Mom, you're a hero, so you'll get a happy ending. Maybe Robin wasn't it." And since he's the expert on the book, he would know that what happens now isn't because of the book.

 

It's definitely out of character for Emma to have bought into Operation Mongoose at all. She's the one with the real-world values. I can't imagine her character, as established, saying anything but, "You make your own happy ending. Just because this one thing doesn't work out, it doesn't mean you stop trying, and it doesn't mean something's stopping you from ever finding happiness."

 

The writing is twisting everything to make their chosen plot kind of sort of work. It may not all be because of their lack of objectivity in writing Regina, but I still think that if they wrote the other characters' reactions in a way that fit their characters, they would be reacting to Regina in a very different way and most of this plot would never have happened.

[Curio]

The writing is twisting everything to make their chosen plot kind of sort of work. It may not all be because of their lack of objectivity in writing Regina, but I still think that if they wrote the other characters' reactions in a way that fit their characters, they would be reacting to Regina in a very different way and most of this plot would never have happened.

 

You know the writers have to twist the characters to fit the plot when Hook of all people believes in Operation Mongoose. And he confesses this during an episode in which he gives another villain a happy ending.

 

I wish there was a reporter out there who actually asked Adam & Eddy the hard-hitting questions we discuss in here. Big entertainment reporters like Matt Mitovich aren't as invested in the show as we are, so they probably don't even catch all the glaring plot holes and inconsistencies like we do, so they never ask about it in interviews.

[Guest]

I wish there was a reporter out there who actually asked Adam & Eddy the hard-hitting questions we discuss in here. Big entertainment reporters like Matt Mitovich aren't as invested in the show as we are, so they probably don't even catch all the glaring plot holes and inconsistencies like we do, so they never ask about it in interviews.

 

The biggest fan isn't going to ask a hard hitting question if they are an entertainment reporters.  This is promotion not news.  Entertainment reporters need these people to be willing to talk to them.

[Curio]

The biggest fan isn't going to ask a hard hitting question if they are an entertainment reporters.  This is promotion not news.  Entertainment reporters need these people to be willing to talk to them.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of having interviews with people like the bloggers/journalists who attend Comic Con who aren't afraid to ask Robert and Emilie about how Rumbelle is an abusive relationship. Instead of asking the actors those kind of difficult questions, those journalists should be taking those kind of questions to the writers because they're the ones who are responsible for the story lines. But yes, big entertainment reporters are on a short leash because the writers won't talk to them unless they ask safe questions, but it's frustrating when the same boring questions always get asked because these journalists are some of the few people who can actually be a reality check for the writers.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Curio

[sharky]

So apparently Scott confirmed on Twitter that he'll be back in the fall in the writers room. My wine is in the fridge -- figured it's still a little too early to start drinking my season 5 sorrows away, especially when we haven't even seen the S4 finale.

[RadioGirl27]

So apparently Scott confirmed on Twitter that he'll be back in the fall in the writers room. My wine is in the fridge -- figured it's still a little too early to start drinking my season 5 sorrows away, especially when we haven't even seen the S4 finale.

There go my expectations for season 5

Edited April 27, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Shanna Marie]

It seems like a really, really bad thing for a writer of anything fantasy-related to tell the audience that something shouldn't matter because it's magic and therefore not "real." As, apparently, these idiots were responding to viewers on Twitter.

 

Fantasy doesn't work if you don't treat it as real within the world of the story. Magic may not be real in our world, but it is real in their world, and therefore it's part of real life, and therefore it shouldn't matter whether something was done by magic or not, it still happened. Magic is just another power or tool in their world. It would be like saying someone in our world isn't really dead if they were shot instead of strangled because a tool was used to kill instead of just bare hands, so it wasn't "natural" and therefore not "real."

 

One of the big pluses for writing fantasy is that magic allows you to do things that couldn't happen in the real world, and therefore they can be bigger, which makes the consequences even more enormous than what can happen in our world. For instance, it would be impossible to convince a man in our world that he's living with his long-lost wife when it's really an enemy in disguise. No matter how good her wig and makeup, he'd figure it out (then again, it is Robin ...). The best you could manage is maybe drugging him and then using a disguise, so for one instance of sex he might be fooled and she could get pregnant, but that wouldn't be as big a deal with as huge an emotional impact on everyone as him living with her for a couple of months after recommitting to their relationship and her getting pregnant, only for him to learn that it was an enemy in disguise all along. That's a much bigger betrayal and violation because the emotions run deeper.

 

So why would you tell your viewers not to worry about what happened because it's just fantasy and it was magic and any child should know the difference between that and reality? Robin was violated within the world of the story, and the fact that magic was used to make it happen doesn't change the fact that it did happen. The fact that these writers have a pattern of writing sex that involves one person not being able to give informed consent and don't see a problem with it and think that we shouldn't be bothered because magic is very troubling.

 

And if something doesn't matter because it's magic or fantasy, then why should we be watching this show?

[Curio]

With that logic, why are we focusing so much on how bad Snow and Charming were because they happened to used magic to send darkness into another baby? Come on, writers. Why are you still writing Emma as upset? It's just magic! It doesn't matter. An 11-year-old can tell the difference between an egg baby and a real baby.

[FurryFury]

I can't stand this notion that fantasy is somehow inferior to other genres, less real and thus undeserving of being taken seriously. Newsflash: CSI's forensics aren't real too. Hell, the characters on prestige dramas, your Walter Whites and Don Drapers also aren't real. This is all fiction, it all exists in your heads (and on your screens). The fact that fantasy uses magic as a narrative device doesn't mean you can write if off as something unworthy. Magic is just a trope and if you are writing a drama, should be taken just as seriously as any other trope you use.

 

Sadly, this whole problem with supernatural rape not being considered rape is basically a trope in itself. The Vampire Diaries used it repeatedly, for instance. Agents of SHIELD had an episode last year with the same issue. Etc.

[Camera One]

With that logic, why are we focusing so much on how bad Snow and Charming were because they happened to used magic to send darkness into another baby? 

 

In that one, the writer (Jane) confirmed that what they did was bad since it was a baby.

[regularlyleaded]

I’m now somewhat caught up with the 4B episodes, and there are so many things that are so very, very wrong, maddening and, well, wrong with how this show is being written. But, at the moment, there’s one thread I need to pull at because it’s utterly baffling: Why, why, whyyyyyy did the writers feel the need to create a plot wherein they claim Emma has the potential to be the darkest dark that ever darked, and also follow that up with a plot point that states that the Apprentice removed all her potential for darkness? Whyyyy? Why go there? The writers are taking what should be something that everyone in the audience can connect with and understand — the temptation of darkness, big or small — and have made it almost unrelatable. The words “mystified” and “infuriated” don’t even begin to cover how I feel about this plot.

Look, the idea of Emma being tempted into “darkness” because she’s being driven by hurt, fear and anger is not a bad one. I actually consider it part of The Hero’s Journey 101. I think protagonists tempted by darker impulses is a very basic conceit of the typical hero’s journey. It’s Luke Skywalker being tempted by the darkside because of his desire to stop Darth Vader and the evil Emperor, protect his sister, and also because darkness and power is alluring. I think those are very human and understandable concepts. We’ve all been tempted to do something “bad” at one point or another, so that struggle is one the audience can understand and relate to.

As such, I cannot fathom — I can’t fanwank it, the mental contortions don’t exist that explain it, there aren’t enough drugs in the world for me to join this trip — why the writers chose to muddle and hinder the story of Emma’s hero’s journey & struggle with darkness by introducing a plot contrivance that A) is absolutely unnecessary and B) that in and of itself makes no sense.

To write a story about Emma's struggle with darkness the writers didn’t need to concoct a farcical plot point that Emma has the potential to be the darkest dark that ever darked because the audience was never under the impression that Emma was infallible and incapable of darkness. Emma's past actions have established that she’s a gray character; willing to walk the line and take a step over it, but also driven by the need to protect her loved ones and a desire to help others and contribute to the greater good. And while Emma's capable of "darker" deeds, she's also someone who feels regret and remorse for her past mistakes and takes personal responsibility for her actions. All in all, she's ultimately a gray character. Past seasons have given us several examples of this.

 

In Neverland, Emma sided with Regina and let her take a Lost Boy’s heart so that they could contact Henry. She did so because she was trying to save her son, and yet she felt bad about it. We saw it. When Emma suspected Pan was scheming even though he was trapped in Pandora’s box, her plan was to shoot him while he was across the town line and hence powerless. Upon meeting Hook, Emma suspected him of participating in the mass murder at Haven, so she and Team Princess tied him up to a tree and were prepared to leave him there for the Ogres to kill. 

 

We have example after example that shows that Emma is a gray character. No one watching was deluded into thinking that she was pure as the driven snow and, more importantly, neither was Emma. Emma herself perceives herself as very fallible, and while she strives to be good she's neither entirely good nor bad. In that sense, Emma is probably the most human and relatable character on this show. So having established all of the above about a character, why then (WHY?!?!) would any writer choose to muddle the story about her struggle with darkness with contrivances like this:

 

Episode A) *GASP* Emma has “the greatest potential for darkness” Dun-dun-Duuuuuuhn!
Episode B) Psych! No, she doesn’t. She had an evilectomy while in utero!
Episode C) But wait, there’s more! Despite the evilectomy, she can still go dark!

Holy-Crap-Nuggets. The only thing this achieves is to confuse the story. It completely distracts from what should be emotional elements in Emma’s struggle to remain on the side of good and all the things that everyone in the audience can relate to as fellow fallible human beings. It's utterly mind-blowing how far out of the way the writers have gone to introduce contrived elements in what should be a very organic and human story.

I’m not a writer. Long posts on these (and other forums) are the closest I will ever come to being a writer — so, not close at all. But I do know design and a basic principle of good design is that you don’t introduce an element into your design for the sole reason that you “like it”. Visual design is like telling a story. You’re trying to get message across visually and anything that detracts from the visual cohesion also hinders your ability to convey the message. Thus, if an element of a design is a visual distraction, you remove it. And what these writers have done here with the evilectomy is that they’ve mired what should be a compelling, emotional, and relatable story of Emma’s personal (and very human) struggle with darkness with unnecessary fantastical elements that only confound and detract from the emotional power of the story.

Edited April 28, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Shanna Marie]

The writers are taking what should be something that everyone in the audience can connect with and understand — the temptation of darkness, big or small — and have made it almost unrelatable.

That is such a good point. If they wanted to contrast heroes and villains, they've had so many of the villains on this show go dark because they made bad choices when faced with difficult circumstances. It would be interesting to show a person face similar circumstances in real time (vs. flashback) and pull away to show the contrast between what makes a hero and what makes a villain. Give Emma a potential darkness-inducing situation, let her be tempted by darkness and even maybe indulge in it a teeny bit, and then let her make a different decision and pull back from it, remaining a hero. They could still somewhat exonerate Regina (since of course we can't have a plot that makes her look responsible for her life) by having the difference be that Emma has people in her life who won't give up on her.

 

Heck, they even brought this up themselves in Hook's speech to Emma about how he went dark because he had nothing else to live for and she has her family.

 

Which may be further proof that all Emma and Hook scenes are magically inserted by the writing elves and not written by the show's actual writing staff.

 

But anyway, it makes for a much more interesting story if it's real and not a magical dark blot on the heart or a magical de-darkening spell or any other nonsense like that. Emma could have teetered on the edge of darkness over Neal's death, over seeing her mother be executed, over Hook nearly dying at Rumple's hands, or a number of other things that have actually happened. And it didn't need to be magically verified with a darkness-sniffing monster or be the secret ingredient for Rumple's latest scheme.

[Camera One]

It completely distracts from what should be emotional elements in Emma’s struggle to remain on the side of good and all the things that everyone in the audience can relate to as fellow fallible human beings. It's utterly mind-blowing how far out of the way the writers have gone to introduce contrived elements in what should be a very organic and human story.

 

The reason has nothing to do with what's organic for Emma's character (or for any character for that matter).  The reason is A&E wanted a mystery they could reveal piece by piece, with surprise twist after surprise twist, the latest being that Emma's 2-day BFF Lily was Maleficent's daughter all along.  

[FurryFury]

I guess now, the moral of the story is villains aren't born, they're made (except if you're Cruella). Heroes aren't made, they're born (because your parents manipulated you in-utero). Classy, show.

[Serena]

Those writers really don't think things through, do they? "Hey, what's the #1 plot we're still getting shit for after four seasons? Regina's rape of Graham! Oh, I know... LET'S DO IT AGAIN, WITH HER SISTER! But this time, let's add a rape baby - GENIUS."

[Camera One]

Just visited Andrew Chambliss (writer for "Lily")'s Twitter to hear what he had to say about this episode.

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26
Regina said she needed Emma on the road trip, but seems like Emma really needed her... #OnceUponATime #OUAT

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26
This scene is heartbreaking.  If only Lily knew why her life keeps taking turns for the worse... #Once #OUAT #OnceUponATime

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26
Who thinks Emma's acting like a villain? #Once #OnceUponATime

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26
Lily has her necklace from her mom and Emma has the baby blanket from her parents #lotsincommon #Once #OUAT

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26
Love with confrontation between @ginnygoodwin @joshdallas and @BauervanStraten #OnceUponATime

 

Andrew Chambliss @AndrewChambliss  ·  Apr 26

Dana and I spent a couple hours e-mailing images back and forth to put on that murder board #OUAT #OnceUponATime #Lily

[Serena]

I'm pretty sure they put more effort into the murder board than in writing the actual episode.

[Mathius]

Who thinks Emma's acting like a villain?

Depends on what scene he's referring to. Considering shooting Lily execution-style when Lily has only made threats while not having any means to carry them out, yes. That, unlike killing Cruella, is acting like a villain; Regina of all people even noted the difference in the situations and that only this one qualifies as murder.

Thrashing some jerk at the motel and saying she'd kill Lily if Lily was actually in a position to hurt her family, though? No.

[Curio]

I was reading Vince Gilligan's AMA he did today, and it made me a bit depressed that Once doesn't have a showrunner of his caliber running this show. Sigh. His answer about Walter White made me think of Adam & Eddy and their treatment of the villains on this show.

 

In the early days of the series -- when I was at my most foolish -- I deliberately tried to make Walter White so unlikeable that his behavior would shed viewers. In hindsight, I think that was extraordinarily dumb of me, but I have to admit that by the end of the series, I myself did not have a whole lot of sympathy for Walter White. For me, he had gotten too dark to empathize with

 

This immediately made me think of how the Once writers went out of the way to make Regina egregiously evil in Season 2 with wanting her to destroy Henry's entire family and everyone in Storybrooke and the village massacre (which actually did shed some viewers). That, combined with the many evil acts she also committed in Season 1, is just too much darkness to empathize with. Unfortunately, where Gilligan recognizes that this was foolish and he reached a point where he couldn't sympathize with his protagonist, Adam & Eddy seem to keep pushing the boundaries with showing more and more of Regina's evil acts from the past and they still empathize with her. 

 

I think that's where I lose total connection to Adam & Eddy's vision of the show. I loved Breaking Bad and watching Walter White because even though he was obviously not a good person and did many villainous acts, the show never tried to convince us he deserved a happy ending. But on this show, we have a similar character who has done many evil acts, but the writers will spend an entire season arc centered around giving that character a happy ending because they're just so "misunderstood."

Edited May 1, 2015 by Curio

[Souris]

Ah, man, Vince Gilligan. I adored him when he was writing for X-Files. I never watched Breaking Bad, because it wasn't my cup of tea, but it sounds from all accounts that Vince did just as well as I expected him to do as a show runner. He's a great writer and clearly a great show runner as well. You can tell he THINKS about things and understands how to craft a story.

[Zuleikha]

That, combined with the many evil acts she also committed in Season 1, is just too much darkness to empathize with.

 

Speak for yourself. I have no problem empathizing with Regina. Neither do many other viewers. She is, and always has been, a popular character. I truly get why it's hard for some people to get past Regina's history of crimes, but it's just not accurate to say A&E made some objective blunder with how they shaped her story. This board can be something of an anti-Regina echo chamber, but that doesn't represent Once fandom at large.

[KAOS Agent]

Evil Regals and Dearies do not represent the Once fandom at large either. Everyone has their favorites and remains supportive of them, but there is something to the problem of piling evil act upon evil act on some of these characters that makes it very difficult for a non-stan to root for them to win in the present. For example, Regina was actively encouraging the suffering/murder of innocents and in a fit of jealousy and spite was shown abusing a horse in the same episode in which I am meant to be rooting for her to get her happy ending in the present. That's hard to reconcile. Just as watching Rumpel continually fuck over people in the present will be ignored/handwaved/fixed with something that in no way actually addresses the pain and suffering of his victims. He's racked up so much evil that I have zero tolerance for any of the writers attempts to make me feel badly for him. He's evil, he's killed and he continues to do so. He's crossed the moral event horizon so many times that I am just annoyed with the attempts to manipulate me into empathizing with him. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

 Speak for yourself. I have no problem empathizing with Regina. Neither do many other viewers.

 

I do speak for myself. (I didn't put "in my opinion" or "IMO" in the post because I thought it was implied.) I know I don't speak for the fandom at large, but personally, I do think Adam & Eddy made a few blunders along the way with taking several of their villains too far down the path of villainy. (Apparently, the old EW reviewer agreed.)

 

I think I'm struggling to come to terms with the fact that I have an incredibly different outlook on what I think the best potential for this show could be and what the writers are actually delivering. I know this show is all about hope and whether or not some of these villains deserve happy endings, but I also believe in holding characters accountable for their past acts and seeing karmic justice fulfilled on screen. Like KAOS Agent said, it's hard for me to root for characters like Rumple and Regina in the present when we're continually shown their over-the-top evil acts from the past. It's like the writers want to have their cake and eat it too by showing these fun, moustache twirling, scenery-chewing villains to fulfill their fun Enchanted Forest flashback fantasies, but at the same time want us to empathize with their present characters who almost seem like entirely different people.

 

I'm all for watching our main three villains (Rumple, Regina, and Hook) fighting to become better people in the present and trying to atone for their mistakes, but I also don't want to be force-fed a storyline about how much they deserve happiness. Rumple has crossed the point of no return when it comes to redemption at this point, so the only true "redemption" he could receive in my eyes is a sacrificial death. The same goes for Regina; when you've racked up a death count in the dozens, that's too much for me. Personally, I thought the best point for Regina's redemption would have been at the end of Season 2 with the fail safe diamond. If she had actually sacrificed herself for the entire town and that was her character's ultimate arc, I would have looked back and appreciated her villainous story and her redemption more. And with Hook, he's a slightly different case because we've only seen him kill one person—Regina's random guard—on screen (was his name Claude?), but if that guard's wife happened to come to Storybrooke to seek revenge on Hook for killing her husband, I'd have to begrudgingly accept it because it would be karmic pay back.

 

But with these writers, I think they might have a case of "How I Met Your Mother Tunnel Vision" where they know what the final scene of the show is going to be and damn it they're going to achieve that, even though the story and characters might have changed drastically from their original vision. I could see Adam & Eddy's perfect finale as Regina having a happy white picket fence family with Henry and Emma as her co-parent and Snow and Charming as her best friends and Rumple with no magic but with Belle by his side as his loving wife, but I just can't ever get on board with that. There's a huge difference between characters seeking redemption and forgiveness and another thing entirely that they should get a happy ending. Sometimes, it seems like the writers think that by doing the first part, they should automatically get the second part.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

 

There's a huge difference between characters seeking redemption and forgiveness and another thing entirely that they should get a happy ending. Sometimes, it seems like the writers think that by doing the first part, they should automatically get the second part.

 

That's what the villains think--that they deserve a HE because they have stopped murdering people for fun. I don't know if the writers do, but I dislike the fact that a whole season has been devoted to Regina's quest for a Happy Ending. That is not what the Show was about in S1.

 

To me it doesn't look like anyone has a Happy Ending right now. The heroes and villains and peasants are all jumping from one crisis to the next, if not from one realm to another. The longest stretch anyone has been relatively at peace was the 6 weeks before the QoD entered Storybrooke. There is no sense of joy. It's all gloom and doom. The Show has lost its core message of "hope", and has turned into a dark drama where multiple villains look for their Happy Endings, while the heroes cheer them on. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Zuleikha]

The Show has lost its core message of "hope", and has turned into a dark drama where multiple villains look for their Happy Endings, while the heroes cheer them on.

 

 

I agree with the idea that the show has lost its core message of hope, but I don't agree that it's turned into a dark drama where multiple villains look for Happy Endings while heroes cheer them on. No one cheered on Cruella, and no one's cheering on Rumple or Zelena right now. I think it's murky what's going on with Maleficent, buut I think in as much as the show has a point of view, it's more about Snow and Charming achieving atonement and Maleficent getting out of the evil business. I've also pointed out before, but I'll say it again, that the 4B plot was set up to be as much about stopping Rumple's plan to take away heroes happy endings and turn Emma dark as it was to be about proactively getting Regina a happy ending. The writing has been such crap that the actual events are more than a little incoherent, but most of Team Heroes 4B actions are canonically supposed to be about protecting the good guys.

 

To me, hope and grace have to extend to people who have done unthinkable deeds but have demonstrated a sincere commitment to change or what's the point of repentance? If people are forever going to be defined by their worst selves, why try to become better? Part of what I hate the most about the current Zelena/Robin storyline is that it perverts Regina's and Emma's act of mercies at the end of 3B. Regina shouldn't have been wrong to extend the possibility of grace to Zelena, Emma shouldn't have been wrong to find a way to both save Marian and respect the rules of time travel, and they both shouldn't be wrong to spare Lily and work to reunite her with Maleficent. 

[Katherine]

 

 

I agree with the idea that the show has lost its core message of hope, but I don't agree that it's turned into a dark drama where multiple villains look for Happy Endings while heroes cheer them on. No one cheered on Cruella, and no one's cheering on Rumple or Zelena right now. I think it's murky what's going on with Maleficent, buut I think in as much as the show has a point of view, it's more about Snow and Charming achieving atonement and Maleficent getting out of the evil business. I've also pointed out before, but I'll say it again, that the 4B plot was set up to be as much about stopping Rumple's plan to take away heroes happy endings and turn Emma dark as it was to be about proactively getting Regina a happy ending. The writing has been such crap that the actual events are more than a little incoherent, but most of Team Heroes 4B actions are canonically supposed to be about protecting the good guys.

 

To me, hope and grace have to extend to people who have done unthinkable deeds but have demonstrated a sincere commitment to change or what's the point of repentance? If people are forever going to be defined by their worst selves, why try to become better? Part of what I hate the most about the current Zelena/Robin storyline is that it perverts Regina's and Emma's act of mercies at the end of 3B. Regina shouldn't have been wrong to extend the possibility of grace to Zelena, Emma shouldn't have been wrong to find a way to both save Marian and respect the rules of time travel, and they both shouldn't be wrong to spare Lily and work to reunite her with Maleficent. 

 

I agree that hope should extend to people who have demonstrated a sincere commitment to change, but my issue with characters like Regina and Rumple is that their commitment to change seems to be more about getting happy endings than actually feeling remorse for the things they've done. I like a good redemption story, but for it to work for me, I have to feel like the character truly regrets his/her actions. This probably isn't what the writers are aiming for, but I've always had the sense that Regina is more concerned with her own happiness than the happiness she has stolen from others. You could argue that this is just human nature - most people are preoccupied with their own happiness. But for me to actively root for a character's happy ending, I need to feel like that character truly grasps the consequences of what he/she has done. It's true that Regina has come a long way and has made some positive choices. I just wish I got more of a sense that she truly feels empathy for her victims. I feel like that's where the writers have really gone wrong in her redemption - by making it all about getting her happy ending and not enough about atoning for her past crimes. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

I think I would enjoy this author plot a lot more if the writers were trying to send the message that people need to earn their happy endings. I would like it if they acknowledged the flaws in Regina's plan to find the author. Regina's lack of self-awareness could make for an interesting character flaw if the writers recognized it as such. But as it stands, I get the impression that the writers are the ones who lack awareness. They seem to be sending the message that Regina's quest makes sense and that she really does deserve happiness.

 

All fans have their favorite characters and of course want to see those characters happy. My favorite is Hook and I'm completely biased in his favor. I want him to get a happy ending, but the question of whether he actually deserves one is open to interpretation. I can see why some people feel like he doesn't.

 

If villains demonstrate real remorse and empathy, in addition to a commitment to change, then I'm on board for them living happily ever after. I just don't feel like the writers have handled this well, particularly with this whole author plot.

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Katherine

[FurryFury]

My problem isn't the possibility of redemption, my problem is the writing of this redemption arc(s) for the villains. Hook's the only one I can remotely accept (and even his isn't perfect because it's all about Emma and it really hasn't been tested yet). Regina's redemption arc is not well-written. At all. She never shows real remorse, real regret. And yes, the level of villainy she has demonstrated is really, really over-the-top for such an easy redemption. She should suffer - not the "my boyfriend's wife is back and he's leaving her for me" suffering. Not the "I've been separated from the child I've been brainwashing for years" suffering. 

If we talk about real redemption arc, show me something like Angel. Like Faith. Then I'll buy it. Not Regina.

 

I won't even mention Rumple, because I still prefer to believe he'll get another "Redemption equals death" moment, only this time it's going to be for real. If the show really redeems him and gets him with Belle, I think I'm out.

[myril]

I agree that hope should extend to people who have demonstrated a sincere commitment to change, but my issue with characters like Regina and Rumple is that their commitment to change seems to be more about getting happy endings than actually feeling remorse for the things they've done. I like a good redemption story, but for it to work for me, I have to feel like the character truly regrets his/her actions. This probably isn't what the writers are aiming for, but I've always had the sense that Regina is more concerned with her own happiness than the happiness she has stolen from others. You could argue that this is just human nature - most people are preoccupied with their own happiness. But for me to actively root for a character's happy ending, I need to feel like that character truly grasps the consequences of what he/she has done. It's true that Regina has come a long way and has made some positive choices. I just wish I got more of a sense that she truly feels empathy for her victims. I feel like that's where the writers have really gone wrong in her redemption - by making it all about getting her happy ending and not enough about atoning for her past crimes. Your mileage may vary, of course..

 

Very much agree with that. I was a fan of Xena, and I could go every step of redemption with her. She was not about getting her own happy ending, she was about how to make up for what she did, while she was aware, that she would never ever be able to undo the pain and terror and damage she caused. I know, fans complained, but I liked the ending of the series, it was the right thing to do, regardless, that I would have loved to see Xena and Gabrielle go off and have a happy life together, but that was not where Xena could go.

 

I was able to see a redemption for Regina, and maybe even Rumple (that was always the harder one for me) in the first season, but not anymore. That's one of the reasons why I am saying, that the writers did Regina no favor with all the whining and babbling about happy endings for herself, they destroyed the character. If they'd written Regina as someone hellbent on defending the town and its people, doing everything to bring people back together she with her curse tore apart, work on them settling and making a good life in Storybrooke as it is, without expecting the least bit of thanks for that, to make the tough decisions the overly friendly good "heroes" don't dare to make sometimes, without whining for that she'd ever would deserve a happy ending, then I could get behind her redemption even seeing that she had killed a whole village for not telling her where Snow was hiding. Xena did worse, and still could get behind her redemption. I don't even mind, that Regina seemingly expressed no regrets bound to the tree in Neverland, I have a different view on that and why it worked for her while she still could have had felt remorse for her evil deeds in the past, but the path the writers have chosen now for her, with seeking her happy ending via making the writer change things, finally killed my hope, that these writers could see past their blind spot concerning fairy tale trope happy endings.

 

Regina doesn't deserve a happy ending, neither do Snow and Charming, but the latter don't whine constantly about it (the one thing that keeps me losing all respect for them as I lost every respect for Regina a while ago). The writers may think they are showing Regina with regrets, and obviously some people seem to see it their way, but it's not any way clear cut so that no one could see it differently. IMO it's quite the opposite, it's messed up in many ways. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by myril

[Rumsy4]

If she was working on returning the hearts she stole, instead of continuing to steal them, I would be more sympathetic towards her. It's the constant flip flopping that gets me.

[Curio]

If villains demonstrate real remorse and empathy, in addition to a commitment to change, then I'm on board for them living happily ever after. I just don't feel like the writers have handled this well, particularly with this whole author plot.

 

The whole author plot has completely muddled the writers' vision of the show and there's so much hypocrisy being thrown around that never gets addressed on screen and never will. I still can't believe the writers decided to go with Operation Mongoose as their over-arching theme of the entire season. I know I've complained in the past about how the writers needed to do a better job of connecting the two half seasons together because 3A and 3B were so different and disjointed, but I'd take that all back if it meant we didn't have to deal with this stupid author plot we're currently stuck with. At first, I thought the Frozen doorway conversation between Emma and Regina was just an annoying call out to the movie, but now I realize that was the writers' mission statement for Season 4 and especially 4B. They might as well put up a blinking neon sign over that scene that reads, "See this right here? Emma is going to be fighting for Regina's happy ending tooth and nail in 4B whether you guys like it or not. Oh, and get ready for an entire half season of non-stop Emma/Regina friendship all the time. It's going to be great."

 

To me, hope and grace have to extend to people who have done unthinkable deeds but have demonstrated a sincere commitment to change or what's the point of repentance? If people are forever going to be defined by their worst selves, why try to become better?

 

I think the thread is veering away from the writers, so I'm going to take my response to the Morality thread.

[BoPeeps]

Who is really telling this story?

I think A&E need to take a giant step back from social media. They rely way too much on outside influences. If you have a story to tell, tell it well and with focused intelligence. If you run out of focused ideas, quit. Everything else makes you look foolish. And that includes the big hammer of Tie-in Daddy Disney though they re also the purse strings., which mkes it very tough.

Fanfic should stay fanfic. The lines have been blurred irreparably.

[Amerilla]

Moved this from Spoilers (but contains nothing spoilery)

 

Curio says: 

 

 

 

I did a little math experiment, and (I'm not joking, I actually did this because apparently I have no life) I counted the amount of screen time that was dedicated to Emma and Hook actually talking together one-on-one, and it amounted to approximately 10 minutes of screen time in 4B thus far. So, if every episode is approximately 43 minutes long, that means any significant conversation Emma/Hook got to have in 4B took up less than 3% of the entire arc.

 

I'm guessing it's going to conform to the show's pattern with relationships. Someone ran the numbers on Rumbelle interactions for S2-3 and found:

 

S2: 58 minutes 

S3: 19 minutes, 45 seconds (27 minutes, 52 seconds if you count Shadow!Belle in 3a)  

 

Even though Rumbelle hadn't become less popular, and even though their S3 story arc ended with their marriage, they dropped from approximately 5% of total screentime in S2 to between 2-3% in S3 (depending on whether you add Shadow!Belle) 

 

I couldn't find numbers for Snowing, but anecdotally, it feels like they got the bulk of their interaction time in S1, and it's dwindled every season since.

 

And OQ is practically in FrankenWolf territory in terms of total screentime. 

 

So, that seems to be the way it goes:

 

1. Most of the character interaction in the first full season they've been assigned as a "couple" (S1 for Snowing, S2 for Rumbelle, S3 for CS)

2. A steep loss of writer interest and thus less on-air interaction

3. Serial separations in different realms with no hope of ever, ever, ever seeing one another again (because, um, magic)

4. Reunions (because, um, magic), kissing, yadda yadda yadda, and then....

5. Back to the lesser-ranking part of the couple standing around like a potted plant while the "hero" or "villain" Does Stuff with other heroes or villains, broken up about once every four or five episodes with a  "no, no, really baby, you're TOTALLY a hero" pep-talk and/or a supportive "cute" hug.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Amerilla

[Curio]

5. Back to the lesser-ranking part of the couple standing around like a potted plant while the "hero" or "villain" Does Stuff with other heroes or villains, broken up about once every four or five episodes with a  "no, no, really baby, you're TOTALLY a hero" pep-talk and/or a supportive "cute" hug.

 

Responding in relationships.