The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[KAOS Agent]

I'll play the A & E interview game. How about this from an early Season 3 interview (it came out after "Lost Girl"). It's kind of an amalgamation of weirdness that shows they aren't very aware of where they're going outside of the current arc (there's a comment about how they aren't looking at Camelot, but don't come yelling at them if it shows up later in the season) as well as cluelessness about the story we're seeing on screen vs what they like to think they are addressing (Charming family issues) and the ever popular "evil isn't born it's made" mantra. 

 

What will Sean Maguire’s Robin Hood be like?

 

KITSIS:  We’re very excited to have Sean.  As you saw, he has a great take on Robin Hood.  Robin Hood’s story is just beginning.  We’re airing in two 11-episode pods.  You’re going to get a little more into him in the beginning of this year, and we’re definitely going to get a lot of him in the second half.  He’s a character we’re really excited about because he’s a thief, but he’s a thief with honor.  Sean really brings a sense of honor and a code, but also a sense of playfulness, which we think Robin Hood needs.

 

We learned almost nothing about Robin in 3B and I love their talk about his honor. Also, Robin is playful?

 

How are the Charmings dealing with not really being a family at this point?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               HOROWITZ:  It’s complicated, and hopefully in a good way.  They’re an unusual family because there’s this odd age thing going on between them.  They’re the same age, and they’ve also been separated for many, many years.  Now, they’re thrown together for a mission, really for the first time, in an enclosed space.  They’re starting to deal with and sort out many of these issues that they haven’t really had a chance to address yet.

 

Oh yeah, they totally addressed their issues with each other. We're almost a season and a half past this interview and they still aren't dealing with their issues. It's really sad that almost every interview I read with these show runners asks a question about Emma/Charmings and I consistently am told how they are dealing with things, but clearly they aren't or I wouldn't see the same question time after time after time. 

 

Is Peter Pan a character that’s beyond redemption?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           KITSIS:  Our characters are all looking for a happy ending.  They’re all looking for love.  It’s just about what choices they use to get there.  Some people are okay with playing hardball.  Some people want to do it the right way.  Peter Pan in an interesting story that will slowly unfold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           HOROWITZ:  In our minds, evil isn’t born, it’s made.  That applies to all our villains, including Peter Pan.

 

This is pretty much completely opposed to how they wrote Pan. Even as Malcolm, Pan wasn't looking for love. He ditched the child who did love him so he could be a kid again. I don't think he was looking for love. What good would be being a kid alone on an island do for you if you're looking for love? And what exactly made him evil? I was never given any kind of reason for why Malcolm/Pan acted the way he did other than that he was just a selfish man. I notice they didn't actually answer the question that was asked either. Is Pan beyond redemption? Did we see him do anything that's worse than Regina or Rumpel? 

Edited December 29, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

The Frozen storyline really did nothing for Regina, besides Marian freezing.

 

I think separating the cast just doesn't work well on this show. Having everyone on completely different story tracks kept the plot looking serrated and messy. There wasn't enough continuity. Emma and Regina BFFs? Dropped after one episode. Mayor Snow? Gone midway through. Everything that wasn't Frozen related was all over the place, including the flashbacks. If it weren't for the Arendelle folks, it would have been another 2B or 3B.

Having Regina totally separated from the Frozen storyline was a Disney thing and not A&E. There was an interview just after season 3 finale were A&E compared Elsa and Regina, both being misundestood villains. I'm pretty sure the Disney executive in charge of the Frozen storyline (because it's obviuos there was one) was the one that force the writers to change all their plan for the season and to keep the Evil Queen as far from Elsa as possible. Because no mather what Adam and Eddy think, the Evil Queen is not a misunderstood villain.

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm pretty sure the Disney executive in charge of the Frozen storyline (because it's obviuos there was one) was the one that force the writers to change all their plan for the season and to keep the Evil Queen as far from Elsa as possible.

 

And to be perfectly frank, I think the show was all the better for it. I honestly wish we could keep whatever people Disney had in the writers' room/production meetings/wherever permanently.

 

First, the flashbacks, like season 1, told a cohesive story, which was refreshing. Of course, this could just be because it was covering new material and not showing retreads of the Regina/Snow conflict, but still. I liked once again seeing a singular story of how the characters got to where they are in the present day.

 

Second, I think the Emma/Elsa parallel is far better than any Regina/Elsa parallels, on both sides of the coin. It allowed for Emma to grow and develop while allowing for Elsa to put the lessons she learned in the movie to good use and help someone else who was going through the same thing she did. I thought making Emma the Elsa and Elsa her Anna was absolutely beautiful, and the Emma/Elsa friendship is, no lie, my favorite thing that came out of 4A. I even have this elaborate headcanon about how Emma and Elsa can totally talk via mirror magic and how the Arendelle portal is permanent because I adored Frozen Swan so much that I did not want to see it end.

 

And finally, Ingrid's redemption was so damn refreshing for this show that I am like 98% convinced that came from Disney. The villain saw the error of her ways, accepted her path as her own, apologized, and sacrificed herself for the common good. It was the exact opposite of everything Regina, and I personally loved it to pieces.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

 

Regina wasn't the only character separated from the main action. Rumple, Henry, Will, Hook (mostly), and Snow were too. They all had their own storylines going on, (Rumple's hat, Hook's heart, Operation Mongoose, Henry working at Gold's shop, Will just being drunk, and Mayor Snow), which in my opinion were mostly very weak. The show's settings of all kinds of people living in one small area was underutilized because of the sheer lack of interaction between all the characters.

 

But this is a Catch 22. If many of these characters were involved in the main plot, it would all go to hell. It's not because of the characters themselves, but because of A&E. They take something wonderful, like Frozen, involve the wrong people, and twist it into some sort of hideous mutation. If the writing was good enough, Regina could have been with the rest of them without stealing the whole show. But since the Woegina Fan Club is doing the writing, it would drag the whole story down. It can work, but it's this show.

 

It's the same with most of the other characters I've mentioned. They can be involved but what they do get is almost always lackluster. When the Snow Queen brought up Emma's parental issues, Snow could have been right there to encourage her and work on their issues. What did we get? "We failed today, David." When Regina goes after the Snow Queen with Emma, that would have been time to make amends over the Marian issue. What did we get? Hurling insults and friendship desperation. The writers know how to take a good thing and rip everything wholesome about it away until you've got nothing but a rotten core.

Edited December 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

From the rewatch, the writers seemed to be taking a very mechanical approach to episode plotting.  Basically, they had EVERY character take turns playing the roles of either Elsa, Anna or Gerda or intolerant townspeople in almost every episode.

 

Episode 1 and 5:  Regina = Elsa, Emma = Anna, with the scene where Emma implored to Regina behind the door. 

 

Episode 2: Regina = Elsa, Henry = Anna.  Same door thing.  Since it wasn't old yet.

 

Episode 2: Charming = Elsa (so afraid, giving in to their fears), Anna = Anna

 

Episode 3: Elsa = Elsa, Granny/Leroy = intolerant townspeople, meanwhile Snow can't Let It Go, not to mention Emma = Elsa while Hook = Anna, as Elsa explains why Emma is pushing him away

 

Episode 5:  Regina = Elsa, Emma = Anna again.  Elsa even vocalized that Emma, like Anna, should keep on trying to get through to the people they love.

 

Episode 7/8/9: Emma = Elsa (in the most recent interview, Kitsis actually said Emma is like Elsa because she loves running away), Snow = Elsa's parents, so scared of her daughter's magic

 

And then throughout the season, some generalized parallels:

- the Snow Queen is basically Elsa without Anna

- Frozen Marion is basically Frozen Anna without Elsa

 

In some ways, this shows the writers had good planning with deliberate plotting in terms of Frozen, when they are given a challenge of keeping the Frozen characters with their core character traits, and then incorporating them organically into the show.  But on the other hand, it more obviously showed their usual tendency of forcing their main characters into the plot rather than letting their characters drive the plot.  The writers were lucky that the actress who played Elsa was excellent, and generally, when she vocalized the parallels, it did not sound contrived and sanctimonious, when it could have.

 

Meanwhile, none of the side plots that did not directly involve Frozen were extremely sloppy, or had even more egregious plot-driving-character. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

They take something wonderful, like Frozen, involve the wrong people, and twist it into some sort of hideous mutation. If the writing was good enough, Regina could have been with the rest of them without stealing the whole show. But since the Woegina Fan Club is doing the writing, it would drag the whole story down. It can work, but it's this show.

 

This is why I want the Disney people to stay. Not so much to sideline Regina but to force some kind of non-Regina perspective into the narrative. Maybe the Disney people would have some ideas as to how to integrate a character like Regina, who was responsible for so much of the rest of the characters' suffering (no matter how much some people would like to pretend she wasn't), back into the fold without the victims having to apologize to their abuser but without Regina losing her snarky edge. Or maybe the Disney people would have some ideas as to how to give Regina some self-awareness that sticks and make her redemption an upward trajectory with a few little blips instead of being a freakin' pendulum swing.

 

Because look, Ingrid was probably the most sympathetic villain this show has ever done. Her motivation made sense to me because it was coming from a place of pain, denial, and, most importantly, guilt. I don't at all condone what she did but I can definitely see how killing her own sister with magic she couldn't control would have led her down this path. It was such a heartbreaking thing, and wherever that idea came from, it was absolutely brilliant. Judging by previous villain/character motivations on this show, I'm guessing it was Disney. I already highlighted what I loved about her redemption via death above, so I won't repeat, but even that was just so unlike anything this show has done and frankly, it was wonderful.

 

 

 

When the Snow Queen brought up Emma's parental issues, Snow could have been right there to encourage her and work on their issues. What did we get? "We failed today, David." When Regina goes after the Snow Queen with Emma, that would have been time to make amends over the Marian issue. What did we get? Hurling insults and friendship desperation.

 

I think this is part and parcel of the big problem: there's no real interest in the aftermath of the plots, only the plots themselves. Snow and Emma fixing their issues would have been wonderful to see. Elsa could even have given Snow a little bit more of a nudge since her own parents were pretty much the poster children for what not to do with a magical child. But nope, a "please don't change" and a hug and poof, all those problems are fixed. They're clearly aware of the problems because Ingrid hit pretty much every single one of them, and I still maintain that Emma wouldn't have gotten so upset if Ingrid wasn't pushing the correct buttons. So somewhere in the writers' room, they do get that these are real issues that should bother Emma, but the resolution, like so many of them, was basically non-existent.

 

Same with Regina and Emma. A writing team not so Regina-focused would have had Emma arguing back. They would have had Emma listing all the way Regina ruined her life. They would have had Emma telling Regina about all the times she's saved her ass ("you've never had my back"). A writing team more focused on the consequences of previous plots and not just the Plot Of The Moment would have recognized how much of a hypocrite Regina was and how out of character it was for Emma -- Emma Swan, people -- to stand there and take it.

 

A fresh perspective would not be unwelcome, is all I'm saying. ;)

Edited December 29, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

I don't necessarily blame the writers for not taking the hate they get on Twitter seriously or even ignoring it altogether given how venomous it is.

You'd think they'd know better than to listen to Twitter, but unfortunately, it looks like there's a lot in their writing that's essentially a kneejerk reaction to Twitter rage. Thus all the SwanQueen Easter eggs and the "we didn't have time for 40 minutes of kissing" responses. If something's trending on Twitter, you can almost bet there will be some reaction to it on the show. And that's just silly because you can't put a lot of nuance in 140 characters. Twitter comes down to "squee" or "boo." The same person whose tweet might be "Squee! #CaptainSwan kiss!" might write a five-paragraph (or longer) essay here about trust, vulnerability, emotional walls and unconditional acceptance. If all they see is the tweet, then they'll think all we want is 40 minutes of kissing, and they're missing the point entirely.

 

I've been trying to mentally catalogue the things that didn't get any payoff in the finale (other than not getting 40 minutes of kissing --- ARRRGGGHHH):

• A lot of Emma's arc was about her coming to terms with her powers. That was the final element in putting together Ingrid's scheme. When she does come to terms with her powers, what does she do with them? She makes fireworks to ooh and aah over, and I guess she undid Regina's vault seal so they could get the ribbons removed. She does nothing in the finale even though they'd created a setup ripe with juicy irony, since Elsa urged her into accepting her powers because of Rumple's plot to remove them, so Rumple would have ended up enabling part of his own downfall (I do think that it's right that Belle got the ultimate victory over Rumple, but Emma should have had at least some contribution toward saving Hook).
• The initial problem in moving forward with the relationship between Emma and Hook was her fear of losing him like she lost every other man she's loved. Then he's put in mortal danger -- and she doesn't know about it and we don't see even a second of her reaction. His line about being a survivor was a direct callback to the setup but it seemed to come out of nowhere because she didn't seem all that bothered. After that setup, she should have reacted in some way that we got to see: some worry that she was losing him before he was safe, then either getting clingy and not wanting to let him out of her sight or pushing him away because she can't go through that again. At the very least, she should have been the one initiating the big kiss after his heart was restored.
• Hook and Emma had three emotional goodbyes that he believed to be the final farewell, and she at least seemed to notice something was wrong, but this was never paid off. There was the big kiss and staring at her like he was boring holes into her immediately after his heart was removed. She noticed something was off, but didn't seem to notice that he'd vanished while she was celebrating with her family. Then they were apparently reunited offscreen because they're both around while watching the curse come in. There's another tearful goodbye before the Shattered Sight spell, in which he's saying goodbye forever and she seems to realize that something's wrong, but she does nothing (though in this case, she may have considered breaking the spell to be doing something that would resolve whatever was wrong). Then she doesn't seem to notice or care that he's not part of the joyous reunion after the spell was broken, and they're reunited offscreen because he's there at the town line when they bring down the ice wall. And then there's yet another soulful parting when he comes to tell her about the portal and he knows this time that he'll never see her again. She notices something is wrong and expresses concern, and he even manages to overcome the control to signal that something is wrong. And she does nothing. They're reunited offscreen (again) and she doesn't even get to say anything like "Oh, that's what was wrong with you."
• Henry working in the store -- nothing comes of it. He doesn't discover anything, doesn't build a relationship with Belle that pays off at the end, doesn't develop a relationship with Rumple that gives him divided loyalties. Rumple apparently realizes offscreen what he's up to. That was an entirely pointless plotline that went nowhere.

 

I have lots more, but I'm off to see Into the Woods, which I'm sure will inspire a lot more writing rage.

[KingOfHearts]

 

A fresh perspective would not be unwelcome, is all I'm saying. ;)

Agreed. This show just lacks diversity in every form of the word, period. There's too much one-sidedness going on. The boat doesn't get rocked very much at all. It all blends together into one big glob, becoming so saturated that it has nowhere else to go. I'm just about done with Lost, and though Once tries to be some sort of spiritual successor, it's like night and day in this department.

 

I think sometimes the writers are just afraid to get their hands dirty or put new efforts into it. From the interviews, I can tell each new season is more of just a routine now.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

I shouldn't have read your post Shanna Marie, now I'm mad again ;-)

 

A fresh perspective would not be unwelcome, is all I'm saying. ;)

Oh, yeah. This show definitely needs new blood in the writting team, someone not obsessed with Regina and with a bit of common sense, or we could end up with another Scott Nimerfro and his tweets about teenagers making out.

Edited December 29, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Souris]

Scott Nimerfro IS their new blood this year, which is depressing beyond words. He seems to have only helped increase the Regina obsession/SQ pandering, so that hasn't worked out well for viewers who don't like those things. And even if there were more new blood with a fresh perspective on the staff, I doubt they'd get listened to or have much of an impact. One newbie certainly couldn't overcome the overwhelming Regina obsession on the writing staff. I know one of the writers who left professed on Twitter to shipping CS, and actually asked several of the current writers if it was OK that she still did. Which makes one wonder why she'd have to ask them if it was OK to ship a canon couple! (Maybe b/c shipping SQ is the consensus in the writers' room?)

[Serena]

I doubt anyone (you know, except a couple of gross 'yay, chicks making out!' dudes) in the writers room actually ships SQ. If they did, what is actually stopping them from making it canon? Or, you know, giving them more scenes? For all the time we spend talking about SQ, they only had scenes in... I wanna say, 3 or 4 out of 11 (12) hours this half season? It truly looks like pandering and it drives me crazy because why can't they write an actual queer relationship between people who actually respect each other on the show?? What was the point of bringing Philip back (they never even explained how he was back!), when they could have explored Aurora and Mulan?

[YaddaYadda]

What was the point of bringing Philip back (they never even explained how he was back!)

 

I'm most definitely assuming that Philip has died after he was monkeyfied.  I know sons get named after their fathers a lot, but I took Aurora naming her son after Philip as Phil Sr not being around anymore.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm most definitely assuming that Philip has died after he was monkeyfied.  I know sons get named after their fathers a lot, but I took Aurora naming her son after Philip as Phil Sr not being around anymore.

That's kind of weird. So, right after realizing his death, she's mingling at baby coronation ceremonies and mommy & me classes?

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

It's not canon that Phillip died. He wasn't around because the actor wasn't available. There's no need to waste limited screen time explaining the absense of a minor character who showed up in only a couple of episodes.

Edited December 29, 2014 by orzamonium

[Mari]

That's kind of weird.

Wasn't she with a fairly large and healthy baby at that mommy and me class?  Where did that baby come from, because only a few days ago (in-show) she was at the "should we tell people, yet" stage of pregnancy.

 

That's weirder.

[Serena]

It wasn't only a few days ago. It was right at the beginning of the missing year, wasn't it? Snow&co. found out about her pregnancy in 312.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It wasn't only a few days ago. It was right at the beginning of the missing year, wasn't it? Snow&co. found out about her pregnancy in 312.

She became pregnant during 3A. Right before she turned into a monkey, it had been two or three months perhaps? The writers have stated the baby was in stasis while she was a monkey. So really, she shouldn't have given birth yet in 4A.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

There were a couple of funny tweets from Sarah Bolger and Julian Morris about the baby. He was as surprised as we were that the baby had been born.

Edited December 29, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Shanna Marie]

Right before she turned into a monkey, it had been two or three months perhaps? The writers have stated the baby was in stasis while she was a monkey. So really, she shouldn't have given birth yet in 4A.

She barely seemed to be showing when she was at the naming ceremony party at Granny's. Then maybe a week later she has a baby bigger than Snowflake. These writers seem utterly incapable of keeping track of time.

 

Okay, more things that weren't paid off:

• The blackmail plot -- Rumple never actually forced Hook to do anything shady using blackmail. The only consequence was that Hook didn't warn them right away about the hat. He didn't even get himself dug into a deeper hole, and Rumple would have taken his heart, regardless.
• The voice mail message -- the one thing that really came from the blackmail plot. Hook believes he's sacrificing his relationship with Emma to warn her about the hat. She never hears the message and never learns about the blackmail.
• The Shattered Sight spell -- it's supposed to be this horrible spell that will tear everyone apart and leave everyone dead. Instead, it turns the town temporarily into a Marx Brothers movie, with silly arguments and lots of slapstick. Even when uncomfortable truths are said ("I was TEN!"), they're treated as just the product of the spell. When the spell is over, there are no lasting ramifications or consequences. I can see how some of the things that happened could end up being funny, but that should have been balanced out by something serious. Really, at least one person should have died to show that the spell was real and that there was a good reason that Ingrid had to die. Otherwise, they may as well have been throwing cream pies at each other. And something should have been said or done that permanently altered a relationship, where once they saw something that way, they couldn't unsee it.

 

And then there was the thing that wasn't actually set up, Belle's issues with Rumple. There was the one moment earlier in the season when she thought briefly that something was off, since he'd disobeyed one of her dagger orders, but otherwise, she showed no sign of having any doubts about him before she found the gauntlet, in spite of her saying she'd seen all the signs. The signs were there, and we saw them, but nothing really gave her pause, including him refusing to help save Emma or practically having to have his arm twisted to help otherwise. We didn't see her do any kind of double-take or frown at anything he said or did, she didn't question him, and she gave no indication that she was having to internally rationalize his behavior. She went straight from packing for her honeymoon to finding the gauntlet and apparently instantly realizing that he didn't choose her over power. There it would have helped if we'd seen something more about the gauntlet. He said it directed to a person's greatest weakness but also said it directed to the thing they loved most. But which? Was he speaking in "love is a weapon" villain terms, so it really directed to the thing a person loved most, and he saw that as their biggest weakness? If it pointed to their weakness, and that's usually the thing they love most, then it pointing to the dagger shouldn't have been such a huge sign, since the dagger really is his weakness. It can be used to control him, with him not even having a choice, and I think that's a bigger real weakness than anything he might love. As satisfying as it was to see Belle make him leave town, it would have been so much better if there had been some buildup to it rather than Belle flipping a switch.

[The Cake is a Pie]

She barely seemed to be showing when she was at the naming ceremony party at Granny's. Then maybe a week later she has a baby bigger than Snowflake. These writers seem utterly incapable of keeping track of time.

 

Well, they can't even care enough to remember that Cinderella/Ashley's baby should be nearly two years old and a girl at the time of that mommy group, so that doesn't surprise me. Unless they are implying she had a second child and now has two children named Alexandra and Alexander. What. I can't even.

[Rumsy4]

She barely seemed to be showing when she was at the naming ceremony party at Granny's. Then maybe a week later she has a baby bigger than Snowflake. These writers seem utterly incapable of keeping track of time.

 

I doubt it's a question of them forgetting, as much as not caring. Plot trumps such things as characterization and continuity. They wanted a "mommy and me" group for the episode, and decided that they'd get these bit actors back rather than random extras, I suppose. Didn't A&E say at one point that they hoped nobody was looking at the timelines too strictly? lol 

 

 

Well, they can't even care enough to remember that Cinderella/Ashley's baby should be nearly two years old and a girl at the time of that mommy group...

 

Well the baby was called Alex, and was dressed in gender-neutral clothing. I don't see why that means Cinderella's baby suddenly turned into a boy. Do girl babies need to be dressed in pink to be identified as such? As to the age, I'm sure they just got a bunch of babies for that scene, and didn't want to bother getting a toddler actor for it. 

[Mari]

As satisfying as it was to see Belle make him leave town, it would have been so much better if there had been some buildup to it rather than Belle flipping a switch.

 

Yup.  Plus, it' s yet more sloppy writing that makes for characterization they don't seem to realize is happening.  The way they wrote that story arc, Belle didn't suddenly realize Rumple was a bad guy who wasn't changing; she had a tantrum because he had fooled her into thinking he liked her more than a gauntlet.

 

Now, don't get me wrong;  that was a good scene, and both de Ravin and Carlyle sold it well.  But if you take a step back and look at both her speech and the over all story arc, they were trying for "Belle realizes Rumple's still evil, and casts him out." and ended up with "Belle stomps her foot and kicks him out because he just pretends to do what she says when she tells him what to do."

 

With build-up, it would seem like Belle was sacrificing her relationship for the greater good of the community and people around her--which is what I think they were going for. Instead, it ends up looking like she could care less about what he does to other people; what drove her over the edge her self-concept as "What protects the world from Rumple with the strength of her love" was destroyed. 

 

 Unless they are implying she had a second child and now has two children named Alexandra and Alexander. What. I can't even.

Well, it apparently works for some celebrities and boxers, so why not?

[The Cake is a Pie]

Well the baby was called Alex, and was dressed in gender-neutral clothing. I don't see why that means Cinderella's baby suddenly turned into a boy. Do girl babies need to be dressed in pink to be identified as such? As to the age, I'm sure they just got a bunch of babies for that scene, and didn't want to bother getting a toddler actor for it. 

 

As the mother of a 3 yr. old girl who hates pink and frills, but likes to swordfight and play prince, I say of course not, but this is a television show. You wonder if small details like that are deliberate choices, and the outfit coupled with the age and name of the baby just creates confusion. If the baby is a girl and the same "Alex" who was born nearly two years ago, why is she still a baby? If the baby is a boy and supposed to be Cindy's 2nd child, why of all possible names, also name him Alex? And then they deliberately called it a support group for first time moms (and yes, it's possible Cindy is leading it because she already went through the experience, but they never addressed that in the show, so we're left to wonder). It doesn't make sense. Such a tiny detail, and yet, so frustrating once you think about it too much.

 

In the grand scheme it doesn't matter, but it just makes me question if the writers simply don't care, or if they assume the audience won't notice or care. 

 

And then that snowballs into well, what else do they not care about and what other surprises are they going to retcon, hoping the audience doesn't remember or doesn't notice? And then you wonder about all the dropped storylines and the Chekov's arsenal lying around...

Edited December 30, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Camera One]

There were a couple of funny tweets from Sarah Bolger and Julian Morris about the baby. He was as surprised as we were that the baby had been born.

 

LOL at the "what the hell" response of the actors.  They probably expected a scene or two regarding their Monkey-fication.  

 

 

I doubt it's a question of them forgetting, as much as not caring. Plot trumps such things as characterization and continuity. They wanted a "mommy and me" group for the episode, and decided that they'd get these bit actors back rather than random extras, I suppose. Didn't A&E say at one point that they hoped nobody was looking at the timelines too strictly? 

 

That's one of the things I find most frustrating about these writers.  You would think at least one of them would be obsessively trying to keep track of this wonderful world where all these fairytale characters are real.  But it seems like they have their favorites and the rest are chopped liver.  I'm still glad they bring them back for cameos, though.  It is seriously one of the few things I enjoy about this show.  Sometimes, one minute with random cameo character is worth more than 30 minutes of snoozeville or WTF-city.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Didn't A&E say at one point that they hoped nobody was looking at the timelines too strictly?

This is not a strict series, there's a boatload of liberties taken, and almost nothing can be taken seriously... but quality checking the timeline is mandatory. Plot holes with the timeline just aren't explainable besides this thread's title. It adds confusion to not only us seasoned viewers, but to the audience as well. I think the fact each episode is pretty much one day apart has a lot to do with it. If the timing was more realistic, Aurora's baby and Henry's age wouldn't be so much of an issue. But when you scrunch everything into a small frame, the faults are much more visible.

 

It was just about two weeks ago when Emma and Henry were still in New York. Then Zelena came to town, then immediately the time travel adventure happened, then Frozen immediately after that. How these characters can keep each day straight is a mystery to me. I'm sort of glad there's a six week timejump, but I doubt it'll mean anything. It'll be as if they sat on their butts doing nothing the whole time.

 

Looks like Belle finally got away from that provincial life...

Edited December 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Yeah, there is no reason why Emma and Henry couldn't have been in New York for 2 years, if only to make Henry's age more believable.  It actually would make the reunions so much more emotional (not that it was emotional in the least since everyone in Storybrooke thought "Going Home" was yesterday, but whatever).   They could have shown Snow and Charming agog at how big Henry was, and how sad they missed 2 years of his life.  It could have provided a way to create new story directions for Henry now that he was a teenager.  I suppose they consider him a prop for Regina, so they couldn't care less.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They could have shown Snow and Charming agog at how big Henry was, and how sad they missed 2 years of his life.  It could have provided a way to create new story directions for Henry now that he was a teenager.  I suppose they consider him a prop for Regina, so they couldn't care less.

The Missing Year (or Years) should have created a lot of changes like that. Regina should have been going steady with Robin Hood if not married, for instance. Neal dying and Snowing getting pregnant were not all that shocking nor effective in the long term. I feel like Team Evil just running the kingdom casually for a year with Zelena popping in once and while to cackle was just too mundane. I agree that tacking on another year with some more meaningful events would have helped the character development in 3B.

 

Rapunzel's, Cora's and Zelena's Rumple flashbacks were the most unnecessary, imo. They could have been replaced with War on Wicked awesomeness. I really don't know what the showrunners were thinking with 3B. "Let's have this big reset, then put the focus on a character that has nothing to do with it! Even better - we'll make the tagline Wicked vs. Evil, then have Regina powerless until the deus ex machina finale!"

Edited December 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

I doubt anyone (you know, except a couple of gross 'yay, chicks making out!' dudes) in the writers room actually ships SQ. If they did, what is actually stopping them from making it canon? Or, you know, giving them more scenes?

 

A&E, I would imagine, since they're the ones that call the final shots. Scott Nimerfro tweeted that he and Jane Espenson fight for SQ in the writers' room. Take that as you will.

[Faemonic]

There were a couple of funny tweets from Sarah Bolger and Julian Morris about the baby. He was as surprised as we were that the baby had been born.

"Did you not get the invite to the birth? Carrier pigeons can be so unreliable." Halp I cannot with so much adorbs!!

[Camera One]

You wonder if small details like that are deliberate choices, and the outfit coupled with the age and name of the baby just creates confusion. If the baby is a girl and the same "Alex" who was born nearly two years ago, why is she still a baby? If the baby is a boy and supposed to be Cindy's 2nd child, why of all possible names, also name him Alex? And then they deliberately called it a support group for first time moms (and yes, it's possible Cindy is leading it because she already went through the experience, but they never addressed that in the show, so we're left to wonder). It doesn't make sense. Such a tiny detail, and yet, so frustrating once you think about it too much.

 

In the grand scheme it doesn't matter, but it just makes me question if the writers simply don't care, or if they assume the audience won't notice or care.

 

The scary thing is that the head-honchos A&E wrote that episode.  

[regularlyleaded]

From "The Villains of Once Upon A Time" thread:
 

I believe this was a big turnoff to viewers in S2. They saw all the crap Regina put everyone under in the first season, then she got none of the comeuppance everyone expected her to get after the season premiere. She followed the Big Bad formula to a fault in S1, with no reason to sympathize or believe she could redeem herself. S2 comes along and totally changes her character's DNA with very little reason, throwing the whole audience off.

ITA, and I think that is a perfect example of what is one of the biggest problems with the writing on this show, across the (story)board -- Failure to meet expectations. The writers regularly fail to "strike when the iron is hot". They build and build, episode after episode, adding to the dramatic elements of the story arcs; we get build-up coming out of our darn ears, so much that the writers work up the audiences' expectations to almost fever pitch (well, if you're new to the show it's a fever pitch. Veteran viewers of this show know to lower their expectations really, reeeeeally, low. I'm talking hundreds of kilometers below sea-level "low"). And instead of delivering with an exquisitely gratifying bang on all that dramatic build-up, it all just crumbles apart and disintegrates with nary a whimper. The scale at which they fail to deliver on story build up makes calling it "squandering potential" a gross understatement.
 
Discussions on another thread about the old TWoP Banner wars led me down a rabbit hole where I came upon a recap from Omar G (when he was recapping Smallville) where he makes a remark which I think pretty much sums up what should be the tag line for OUAT:
 
"if you've ever loved the show and thought it was building to a fitting end for its [story lines], congratulations. You got played."

[KingOfHearts]

 

ITA, and I think that is a perfect example of what is one of the biggest problems with the writing on this show, across the (story)board -- Failure to meet expectations.

 

Or they'll engrave into your mind that something is one thing, but in the end they do the exact opposite. As I was saying with Regina, they took every opportunity to pound in our brains that she was evil. Murder, rape, abuse, perpetual rudeness, going after newborns, etc. Every single line of dialogue she spoke had tones of tyranny and hatred. There was absolutely no reason to believe she was redeemable, and the writers communicated that very clearly. Instead of all of this culminating to what would logically transpire next, they do a 180 and assassinate her character.

 

Another example would be Emma. 4A has been an arc about Emma accepting her role as the Savior. Many issues, like her parents, her love life, her childhood, and her magic were all brought up. She was the cast's connection to the Big Bad. But instead of tying her development up in the climax, they let her be utterly useless. She just stood there while Ingrid saved the day. Her past with her didn't even matter, quite honestly. There was no revelation with Emma nor Elsa after they got their memories back. I didn't even think Ingrid and Emma were that close, but I'm getting off track here. Point is - they built up Emma, then proceeded to go to the opposite direction.

 

The planets can align and the writers always miss the opportunity. We should probably just leave them to the setup, then have a different team of writers write the actual execution. God doesn't give with both hands, apparently.

Edited December 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4A has been an arc about Emma accepting her role as the Savior. Many issues, like her parents, her love life, her childhood, and her magic were all brought up. She was the cast's connection to the Big Bad. But instead of tying her development up in the climax, they let her be utterly useless.

Ditto 3B -- Emma was so instrumental to saving the day that she was the only one who could defeat Zelena, and that was the only reason they cast the Dark Curse that nearly killed David, and she was so critical to saving her family that Hook gave up everything he owned to reach her with the memory potion and get her to Storybrooke.

 

And she turned out to be utterly useless and played no role whatsoever in stopping Zelena. The only thing she did was get Henry to town so Regina could break the memory spell, and that way Regina knew how to stop Zelena and was able to do so with light magic.

 

In books, the editor is responsible for making sure a story flows and that there's continuity. Then there's a copyeditor who also checks continuity (stuff like the timeline). There doesn't seem to be anyone serving those roles on this show. I guess theoretically the show runners would be responsible for making sure that the story arcs that were set up are paid off and for keeping track of the story Bible, but these guys aren't doing that job. They're the worst offenders. It's like they have a raging case of ADD, so they start out with this one idea, then something shiny distracts them in midstream and they wander off in another direction, totally forgetting what they've already established. The earlier threads are dropped, anything going back more than half a season is forgotten, so the continuity sucks and stories repeat themselves because they forget that they've already written that story, and resolutions come out of the blue. Then things that make that resolution work are contradicted at the beginning of the next season.

[regularlyleaded]

In books, the editor is responsible for making sure a story flows and that there's continuity. Then there's a copyeditor who also checks continuity (stuff like the timeline). There doesn't seem to be anyone serving those roles on this show. I guess theoretically the show runners would be responsible for making sure that the story arcs that were set up are paid off and for keeping track of the story Bible, but these guys aren't doing that job. They're the worst offenders. It's like they have a raging case of ADD, so they start out with this one idea, then something shiny distracts them in midstream and they wander off in another direction, totally forgetting what they've already established.

I also tend to subscribe to the idea that the show runners have ADD and that's why the stories change course midstream, but I suspect that they consider these drastic changes to be carefully planned "surprising twists". Where we see it as total lack of pay-off for the setup we've been watching, they think they're injecting "surprising twists" into the story. But hate to break it to them, they are doing it wrong (as far as I'm concerned).

 

What they do is more like if you were to go to the store and plunk down a lot of money for a product that you've had your eye on for a very long time, a shiny new TV, for example. You're all excited because you can finally have that shiny new TV that you've been saving for; you went to the store and bought it, loaded it in your car, drove home, and carried it inside. But when you opened up the box, instead of the shiny new TV that you were expecting, there's a sad little toaster oven. Literally, a toaster oven. Somehow, a toaster oven was put in the box in place of what should have been your shiny new TV. The universe is laughing at you. That's the kind of "surprising twists" the writers are delivering on this show. No one wants those kinds of "surprising twists". No one.

[ParadoxLost]

In books, the editor is responsible for making sure a story flows and that there's continuity. Then there's a copyeditor who also checks continuity (stuff like the timeline). There doesn't seem to be anyone serving those roles on this show. I guess theoretically the show runners would be responsible for making sure that the story arcs that were set up are paid off and for keeping track of the story Bible, but these guys aren't doing that job.

 

The thing is that TV shows have editors that put the final product together and there are signs with this show that there is a major problem in that department.  There has been stuff that we know landed on the cutting room floor that didn't make the final edit, defying all logic.  I will never believe that there is no footage of Snow noticing that Emma nearly froze to death.  It would need to be a conspiracy, by writers, actors, and directors, not to have Snow's gaze accidentally drift to Emma on film for the editor to cut together.  The tag on the mid-season finale was completely botched and that was a clear editing snafu (instantaneous reclaiming Arrendale, cut from Hook/Emma to Regina/Emma).  Don't get me wrong, its still the showrunners fault, because at best they aren't making sure the final product conveys what they are aiming for and at worst they are orchestrating the whole thing and dictating the inept editing choices.

 

Its hard to tell how bad the writing really is when there are clearly editing problems.  It peeling the layers of an onion trying to figure out how far down the rot goes.  I suspect you are right that the problem is at the core and no one is making sure the arcs pay off and the bible exists, much less is followed.  But when there are glaring editing problems, I sometimes wonder if it the writing isn't quite as bad as it seems sometimes and they could put the pieces together in a better way to make the show more satisfying.

 

I sometimes wonder, after reading A&E interviews, maybe they just never saw the final cut.  Like actors who can't watch themselves on TV.  The writers can't watch their own stories unfold so they just don't realize.  Or maybe its like the grammar of self-published authors.  They know what they intended to write but in familiarity with the material they can't see it didn't come across that way. 

 

Ugh.  I'm being some kind of writer apologist.  I don't know what came over me.  Bad writers.  Bad.  There is no excuse for not doing the fundamentals of your job.

[Curio]

Its hard to tell how bad the writing really is when there are clearly editing problems. It peeling the layers of an onion trying to figure out how far down the rot goes. I suspect you are right that the problem is at the core and no one is making sure the arcs pay off and the bible exists, much less is followed. But when there are glaring editing problems, I sometimes wonder if it the writing isn't quite as bad as it seems sometimes and they could put the pieces together in a better way to make the show more satisfying.

 

Oh, there are absolutely editing problems and occasionally directing problems, but at the end of the day, the majority of the blame is going to fall onto the script (which is the blueprint the editors and directors follow) and the show runners. Like you mentioned, the quick 23-second scene of Emma restoring Hook's heart in the midseason finale and the scenes preceding and following it are a combination of writing, directing, and editing failures. The progression between the scenes of the Arendelle wedding (which was completely superfluous and should have been cut), the heart restoration scene near the bathrooms, and the scene of Emma and Regina at the bar were written in that order in the script - that series of events falls onto Adam & Eddy. The director just shoots those scenes as he reads them on the page. He doesn't get much of a say in how they're ordered, especially since the creators wrote the episode, and he probably didn't question Adam & Eddy if it would make more sense if he added a shot of Emma walking Hook up to his bedroom or if it'd make more logical sense if the heart was restored in the clock tower.

 

Most of the time, you follow what's written in the script very strictly, unless there's an environment of improvisation on set. But even on comedy shows where you think there has to be more improvisation because of the vibe it creates like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, surprisingly, that show actually follows it's script very closely. Their writers are just very good at creating an improvised feel to their show. However, the editor of Once's midseason finale might have had a better shot at making the transition between the 23-second heart restoration and the ensuing let's-drink-shots scene a little better. The editor could have lingered a couple seconds longer on Hook and Emma post-heart restoration, or ask Adam & Eddy if they could swap the heart restoration scene with the Arendelle scene. But ultimately, it all comes down to our "Master Storytellers" not even realizing what they wrote wasn't a satisfying ending to their own season-long arc.

 

I sometimes wonder, after reading A&E interviews, maybe they just never saw the final cut. Like actors who can't watch themselves on TV. The writers can't watch their own stories unfold so they just don't realize. Or maybe its like the grammar of self-published authors. They know what they intended to write but in familiarity with the material they can't see it didn't come across that way.

If the writers don't go back and re-watch their own show and record what's technically canon and what is still in cutting-room-floor-limbo, then I give up. They're professionals; that's part of their job description. It drives me batty when I watch interviews from the Paley Center or Comic Con and Adam or Eddy confess to being confused about whether a scene actually aired or not because they weren't sure if it was on the cutting room floor. Excuse me? It's your damn job to know details like that! I absolutely think there's a reason those two decided not to continue doing episode podcasts after Season 1 because it probably started becoming blatantly obvious that they didn't have enough evidence to answer some of the hard-hitting fan questions about the show. The actors I can give a pass for not remembering what's on the cutting floor and what actually made it to screen because they have to act those scenes out numerous times and it's not in their job description to keep the continuity of the show straight. But the fact that it's Season 4 and we still don't have a clear answer from Adam & Eddy about whether Emma knows Regina killed Graham or not just shows how inept they are at keeping track of what goes on.

 

Contrast these show runners to Vince Gilligan from Breaking Bad, who had such detailed analyses of each episode where he explained all the technical decisions that went into each scene. There were instances where he'd admit they had to cut a scene from earlier in the series, but they were able to recreate a similar scene later on. That's a show runner knowing his own source material and what makes it to the air, who cares about his end product and isn't distracted by new shiny objects every 11 episodes. If Adam & Eddy are too scared to watch their own show live to record what's canon and what's not, then someone on the writing staff should be doing a better job. It's beyond ludicrous that the creators/show runners wrote a script that had Hook telling Rumple "Emma told me about Belle confessing" when he was literally present during Belle's confession that he was referencing not even 7 episodes earlier. Like, what the hell?

Edited December 31, 2014 by Curio

[Camera One]

Do they write stuff like "this scene could be cut if we're short of time" in the script?  If not, who makes the decision?  For example, who decided they needed to cut Elsa and Snow's scene despite given freak'in two hours for "Smash the Mirror" and what was the their rationale, over other pointless scenes during that episode, especially the newly written crap they tacked on?

[KAOS Agent]

 

It's beyond ludicrous that the creators/show runners wrote a script that had Hook telling Rumple "Emma told me about Belle confessing" when he was literally present during Belle's confession that he was referencing not even 7 episodes earlier.

 

I kind of wonder if Colin realized how stupid that was. That was an extended scene and they must have spent most of the day filming it, so while I wouldn't expect him to remember his or others' dialogue, I'd like to think he'd remember that he spent a good chunk of time listening to Belle confess with him in the room. Not that I'd put it on the actor to point this out, but I wonder if they ever do question the writers about some of the stuff they're given.

 

It's pretty clear that these writers need a continuity editor. If for no other reason than to keep them from looking like idiots for forgetting something that happened only a few episodes earlier. But who am I kidding? Last year, Adam couldn't even remember the episode title for "Going Home", so it's not like basic details like that stick in his mind. 

[Curio]

Do they write stuff like "this scene could be cut if we're short of time" in the script? If not, who makes the decision?

That decision's probably on Adam & Eddy and the director, I'd assume. Part of me wonders if having two show runners instead of just having one person with a master vision hurts the show somehow. I can't imagine Adam & Eddy agree on every single decision, so there's probably some give and take about story details, which might be part of the reason a lot of stuff ends up half-baked on screen. Who knows... maybe it's the case where they both secretly blame the other one for whatever missteps happen but never actually discuss these issues with the writing team, so it's all passive aggressively brushed under the rug and we end up with dropped plot line after dropped plot line.

 

Last year, Adam couldn't even remember the episode title for "Going Home", so it's not like basic details like that stick in his mind.

 

Wait, seriously? If that's true, yikes. It's not like you wrote that episode or anything, Adam...

Edited December 31, 2014 by Curio

[Faemonic]

I can't imagine Adam & Eddy agree on every single decision, so there's probably some give and take about story details, which might be part of the reason a lot of stuff ends up half-baked on screen. Who knows... maybe it's the case where they both secretly blame the other one for whatever missteps happen but never actually discuss these issues with the writing team, so it's all passive aggressively brushed under the rug

I speculate that as a high probability as well, if only for the suspiciously specific denial about no fighting in the writer's room.

 

My favorite composer/lyricist team, Kerrigan-Lowdermilk, when asked whether the music or the words come first, answered: the fight. The fight about what the next song is going to be about, the fight about how that idea is going to progress, the fight over how it's going to be conveyed...

 

Of course, everybody's creative process is different, but what I associate with the word "fight" because of that is...comfort with laying it all out there and knowing that your fellow collaborators are going to tell you that something you hold so precious is wrong, and still being able to trust that the compromise is going to be for the better. Kerrigan-Lowdermilk fight each other for the sake of the quality of the work. They know not to make those into personal attacks, as in attacks on the whole person, even if what they're doing is artistically personal.

 

Not that I'd put it on the actor to point this out, but I wonder if they ever do question the writers about some of the stuff they're given.

I'm almost certain that the actors would absolutely never be allowed to say so, not at table readings, not on the set, not to the director, not in interviews, and not on Twitter...and would know this intuitively. Their job is to say the lines that they're given, and TV (I've heard) is especially unforgiving of improvisation when it comes to spoken lines.

 

Stageplays, at least the ones I've had the privilege of seeing develop to a full performance, doesn't tend to have the playwright hovering around and mourning the compromise of word-perfection in the organic collaboration that are the live performances, and even when it does the playwright can get over it. By my experience, most thespians usually only take the hard line when it comes to Shakespeare.

 

For 412 I mentioned elsewhere that the actual words coming out of Emma's mouth were a little strangely archaic, like she'd say "remains" and "appears so" when she'd always had a more contemporary voice. I figured that if the actors were allowed or even just felt comfortable in that work environment to suggest adjustments to the lines that they're given, then that wouldn't have happened. Unless they just didn't care because the oddities of lines like that vanish into a Someone Else's Problem field and it isn't the actor's problem anyhow. Or if Emma always spoke that way and I'm just having a contrarian brain fart.

[Camera One]

Part of me wonders if having two show runners instead of just having one person with a master vision hurts the show somehow. I can't imagine Adam & Eddy agree on every single decision, so there's probably some give and take about story details, which might be part of the reason a lot of stuff ends up half-baked on screen. Who knows... maybe it's the case where they both secretly blame the other one for whatever missteps happen but never actually discuss these issues with the writing team, so it's all passive aggressively brushed under the rug and we end up with dropped plot line after dropped plot line.

 

They've been working together for so long, though, so I would imagine there is a rhythm there and a system of give and take.  They sort of remind me of "nerdy" teenage boys talking to one another, "What would happen if blah blah blah and blah blah blah, etc." and the scenario would get more and more preposterous and they would all get more and more into it as the conversation went along.  

 

I think it's easier to get into arguments about something if both parties love something and feel strongly about something.  For example, when A&E said they both loved "Star Wars", and it's unlikely to make it onto "Once".  I'm guessing if they were to adapt that, they might both feel strongly on certain plot points.  But if they both couldn't care less about Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Oz, etc. there would be more room for consensus.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

They sort of remind me of "nerdy" teenage boys talking to one another, "What would happen if blah blah blah and blah blah blah, etc." and the scenario would get more and more preposterous and they would all get more and more into it as the conversation went along.

You know, that's probably the most accurate description of those two. They must create some kind of echo chamber where their ideas become more absurd the more they talk to each other. Now I'm wondering who was the one that brought up the idea of Robin and Regina having sex in the crypt and who was the one that kept egging the other person on to go into more detail about when and how it would happen... Yuck.

[Rumsy4]

Adam said on Twitter that he and Eddy make the final decision on what scenes to cut. Besides, it's rather weird that they write and film excess scenes per episode. I don't get it. What's the point? They write, film, and presumably, cut scenes that could act as good transitional points in the narrative. That's probably why the show seems so disjointed to us. That's part of their ADD style of writing, I suppose.

[Curio]

Adam said on Twitter that he and Eddy make the final decision on what scenes to cut. Besides, it's rather weird that they write and film excess scenes per episode. I don't get it. What's the point? They write, film, and presumably, cut scenes that could act as good transitional points in the narrative. That's probably why the show seems so disjointed to us. That's part of their ADD style of writing, I suppose.

 

I think it's kind of a standard practice in video production to shoot more than what you can use because you don't know how much will be cut in order to make the pace better or what the studio execs might deem "too much" for ABC. But what's strange is the decisions Adam & Eddy make in regards to what they keep on the air and what falls to the cutting room floor. There was a deleted scene from the first episode this season that had Rumple collecting the ashes from Elsa's urn, which totally helped explain why he used it against Ingrid later on in the season. If I hadn't watched that deleted scene, I would have assumed the dust was just another convenient deus ex machina pulled from thin air.

 

So why write entire scenes that are important to the plot and throw them away? Was it really necessary to show Rumple monologuing about how the sorcerer's hat works for the fifth time in a row? Did we really need so many Arendelle flashbacks? Did we need to take a break for a couple minutes every episode to remind the audience that Regina still has no fucking clue who or what the author is? Did we really need to see an entire episode of Elsa, Regina, and Emma wandering around the woods accomplishing nothing? As much as I love Charming, was his Bo Peep flashback even necessary? The only important detail we got from that was that his father was a drunkard, which could have come out during a conversation with Hook at the bar instead at a later date. The deleted scenes Adam & Eddy cut sometimes frustrate me, but not as much as the pointless scenes they decide are more important and make it to the air instead.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Curio

[Camera One]

There was a deleted scene from the first episode this season that had Rumple collecting the ashes from Elsa's urn, which totally helped explain why he used it against Ingrid later on in the season. If I hadn't watched that deleted scene, I would have assumed the dust was just another convenient deus ex machina pulled from thin air.

 

I assume they cut it out because the "payoff" for that wasn't for another 6 episodes, and they figured people would have forgotten about it by then anyway.  

 

I feel that of the deleted scenes we did see for 4A, there was a mix of scenes that I'm glad they cut (eg. Snow and Regina in "White Out"... narratively, including it would have made more sense, but frankly, I'm glad they didn't have it), and scenes which were alright but not great (eg. Henry and Rumple... this relationship *could* have been explored in an interesting way, but the single deleted scene they had would not have made any difference and would not have even scratched the surface).  The only one which I think was very valuable in terms of character motivation was Snow/Elsa in "Smash the Mirror" because that made it slightly more comprehensible why Snow and Charming decided to let Emma make her own decision, since Elsa expressed to Snow that she herself was torn, and if anyone could understand Emma, it would be Elsa.

 

 

 

Was it really necessary to show Rumple monologuing about how the sorcerer's hat works for the fifth time in a row? Did we need to take a break for a couple minutes every episode to remind the audience that Regina still has no fucking clue who or what the author is?

 

This repetition felt even worse in 4A than in previous seasons, so I was wondering why. Is it because the writers are not very good at maintaining multiple unrelated subplots which required explanation, since that hasn't happened much in previous seasons?  But then again, isn't that what Previouslies are for?  At least you could fast-forward through them.

 

 

 

As much as I love Charming, was his Bo Peep flashback even necessary? The only important detail we got from that was that his father was a drunkard, which could have come out during a conversation with Hook at the bar instead at a later date.

 

The drunk father thing was a clumsy, clunky, boring, and unconvincing excuse for why Charming was supposedly such a coward.  The purpose of it was not for the benefit of Charming's character development.  There was no need for it to come out, ever.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

The drunk father thing was a clumsy, clunky, boring, and unconvincing excuse for why Charming was supposedly such a coward.  The purpose of it was not for the benefit of Charming's character development.  There was no need for it to come out, ever.

I thought it was very uncreative and just tried too hard to grab sympathy from the viewers. I was hoping Charming's dad had some sort of other identity, like Prince Jonathan or something. Trying to tackle alcoholism with a speech from 80s hair band David just didn't translate the emotion they were hoping for at all. It came out of a can to make the episode more feely, and for that I believe they went to the Contrivance Fairy for ideas. 

 

 

Was it really necessary to show Rumple monologuing about how the sorcerer's hat works for the fifth time in a row?

 

Does it bother anyone else that this show uses the same wording and dialogue so repetitively? "Cleave myself of the dagger", "When the stars align", "She's a monster", "It's True Love", etc. Who the heck says "cleave" anyway? It sounds gross. Even Hook said it. Wouldn't he say something like, "separate" or "relieve"?

 

 

I assume they cut it out because the "payoff" for that wasn't for another 6 episodes, and they figured people would have forgotten about it by then anyway.

That deleted scene felt so long and boring. It was like watching a lecture called Magic 101 with the Dark One. I thought his short explanation to Ingrid was enough to go off of. I don't think the audience really cared. They know Rumple is super powerful and has to have some sort of trapping magic somewhere. Where he got it from went above their heads.

Edited December 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Does it bother anyone else that this show uses the same wording and dialogue so repetitively?

There's a miniature Regina George in my head snapping at all the Once characters to quit trying to make "cleave" happen. Aaand...it didn't happen.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Faemonic

[Camera One]

That inspired me to look up the various explanations for Operation Mongoose in 4A.   Enjoy reading the same thing 11 times.  Creative writing at its finest.

 

A Tale of Two Sisters

"This book is why I'm suffering, not Marian.  Every story in it has one thing in common: the villains never get the happy ending, and it's always been right. I thought not being the villain would change things, but this book, these stories, only see me one way."
"So, what's your plan?"

"Find the writer. We must find out who wrote this cursed tome and then force them to give me what I deserve. It's time to change the book. It's time for villains to get their happy endings.

 

Rocky Road

"These stories about me in the book, I was written as a villain.  And things never work out for the villain, so I want to find who wrote this book and make them. Ask them to write me a happy ending. Is that crazy?"

"This is the best idea you've ever had.  We have to change the book because it's wrong about you.

 

The Apprentice

"Look, I know I might not understand everything that's going on with you and Robin Hood, but there is one thing I understand better than anyone else, Operation Mongoose."

"The storybook?"

"We're gonna find the author, make him change it."

 

Smash the Mirror

 

Character A to Character B:

"It's a magical storybook, which we're all written into."

"This book is about the past.  Like you said, you're not the evil queen anymore."

"Tell that to the author because he seems to have made it a rule that villains don't get happy endings, even if they change, even if they try to be good."

 

Character C to Character B:

"So, what's so important about a book?"

"Whoever wrote this imbued it with magical powers powers that could change Regina's future for the better.  We need to figure out who did this."

 

Character A to Character D:

"You're the hero, and I'm the villain. Free will be damned. It's all in the book. And we both know how it plays out."

 

Later in that episode, Character B to Character A:

"All right, so, tonight, I came here looking, trying to find a clue towards that author towards your happy ending."

 

Fall

 

"Operation Mongoose is not over. We're gonna find the author. You will be happy."

 

Heroes and Villains

 

Character A to Character B

"The Storybook has me written as a villain, and villains always lose, so he thought you might have a clue as to who the author is so I can make him change that."

 

Character A to Character C

"Well, uh, we were looking for the author.  I was hoping he could write me a happier story.  We called that "Operation Mongoose.

 

Character B to Character D

"It's about heroes and villains, where the villains always lose.  I've learned the rules do apply to me, but also there's someone who can change those rules."

"Who?"

"For now, let's call him "The Author"."

Edited December 31, 2014 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

Seeing the lines about Operation Mongoose (aka the Echo Chamber of Lunacy) written out like that makes my brain hurt. Nothing about it makes sense. There’s not even a wee tiny winkle of logic in any of that. Regina (and the writer who came up with this) is too stupid too live.

Has no one in the writers room read what they wrote? Just look at it. Read it. IT’S STUPID. It’s gibberish. I’ve heard more sense coming from stoners. Operation Mongoose is the pinnacle of idiocy. It’s moronic, stupid, dumb, unintelligent, inane, half-witted, imbecilic, puerile, and I’d call it half-baked but it’s not even one-eighth-baked. It’s all the synonyms of the word ‘stupid’ rolled up into one plot line and put on screen. F**********ck. It’s so stupid it makes me angry. Flipping tables isn’t enough anymore.

….I really just can’t even. 

[RadioGirl27]

Really, this is the most stupid storyline ever. It makes no sense and it totally contradicts what happened with the book in the Season 3 finale. It's just lazy writting.