The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[Amethyst]

Good Lord, I just realized my post sounded like double speak.  To clairfy - I don't care if the character of Katrina is killed off, I just think it's best of keep the actress.  Katrina can one again become the half truth speaker from beyond she was before.  With limited screen time. 

 

I understand what you're saying.  I don't know any of Katia's work beyond SH, so I can't say if she could play another role.  But that could still backfire, because Katrina fans could be simply that: fans of Katrina, not another character played by Katia.  

 

FWIW, I don't think the show is going for a full reboot; that would mean tearing everything from the ground up and starting over.  The viewers don't want that, either.  I think the writers are just going back to basics.

[catrox14]

I think it's worth the risk to boot Katia. I can't imagine her fanbase is nearly that of Mison, Beharie, Greenwood, Jones, Noble etc.

They are writing everything around her now, focusing plotlines on her, and it's a fucking waste of everyone else and the good will the show created last season.

[phoenics]

I don't think it would be the worst thing to make the show less serialized. It might be the cleaniest way to remove the CFD from the equation and allow the show to focus on the Ichabbie chemistry. Truthfully a buddy cop MOTW type show might be easier for the writers to maintain anyway as opposed to the mythology which seems to go in a lot of different directions.

What worries me about this is that SH is starting to feel an awful lot like Roswell. I heard the same kind of talk after S2 of Roswell and that ended in disaster.

The first season of Roswell was called Season One-derful because it had really great story arcs, relationships, growth, sci-fi, character building and world building.

Then they went heavy sci-fi in Season 2 (called Season spew by many) and the show went off the rails. The heavy sci-fi shift was to try to pull in males (sound familiar?) and they also sidelined the lead of the show in favor of the two busty blondes. When ratings dipped really low, they finally gave their leading lady a huge story arc and ratings went way up - but not enough to save the show on the WB network.

So off to UPN it went for Season 3 (season flee) and the writers claimed they were going to drop the sci-fi and all of the threads from S2. But they left the results of the threads anyway and never addressed how badly they destroyed their lead male character and instead turned the female lead into a doormat to "gloss over it". Worse, a major plot point from S2 was simply dropped and fans never got a payoff for suffering through it. A character (the lead female character) made a HUGE sacrifice and it was never ever acknowledged. It still angers me. Additionally, the writers just left those threads dangling and STILL didn't fix the whole "busty blonde" problem and sidelined their leading lady in every way that mattered. And all of the human characters became nothing more than props for the "alien" characters - kinda of like how all of the present day humans of SH (Abbie, Irving, Jenny - even Hawley) become "props" for the Crane Family Drama - if they are even around. Which I guess only Abbie really was. And she has definitely felt more like a prop this season.

The same Roswell attitude of "we'll write for our favorite busty blonde character and get to the leading lady whenever" that Goffman seems to show on Sleepy Hollow seems to be happening here. I also think the show runners for Roswell thought the Max/Liz chemistry was so unbreakable that they could just write crappy stuff and it would still be okay.

It wasn't.

The show was canceled.

SH feels like it's dealing with a similar issue. It started off with a bang, faltered in S2 (although in Roswell's case it was network interference and not the show runners, as is the case with SH) and then limped into S3 and repeated the main mistakes from S2.

And even though I LOVE Ichabod and Abbie when they interact, that alone isn't what drew me to this show. I loved the mythical story arc and the feeling that it was leading up to something big. MOTW stuff just feels ... pointless. You can't speculate on a show like that. It's no fun.

The problem this season is poor writing. The 1st season had serialization and it was GREAT! It's just what they chose to write about in S2 and focusing on all of the crappy CFD stuff has dragged the show into the ditch.

Fox doesn't seem to get why folks are upset - although I hope that they'll just kill the CFD - but if the show just drops the whole Witness angle and the Apocalypse... that's just boring.

I don't really have much hope for this show anymore. Even with Goffman gone - the magic of the show is gone. You can't bottle lightning twice.

[phoenics]

I think it's worth the risk to boot Katia. I can't imagine her fanbase is nearly that of Mison, Beharie, Greenwood, Jones, Noble etc.

They are writing everything around her now, focusing plotlines on her, and it's a fucking waste of everyone else and the good will the show created last season.

Exactly. Besides - I don't see how the writers are going to prove to all the folks who left that they are truly turning the ship back around. Dallas had to do something HUGE to get folks to come back. SH is going to have to do the same. They can try a "Dallas" situation, but honestly that will just reset everyone and Katrina will still be there and the spectre of Goffman AGAIN focusing everything on her will still be there, making fans jumpy.

Her presence makes fans distrust the show's intent. With her killed off, it's a clear message to some kind of change. With her still there, it's a bone of contention that many fans will just decide not to play with anymore.

[HalcyonDays]

I think it's worth the risk to boot Katia. I can't imagine her fanbase is nearly that of Mison, Beharie, Greenwood, Jones, Noble etc.

They are writing everything around her now, focusing plotlines on her, and it's a fucking waste of everyone else and the good will the show created last season.

 

From articles I remember reading earlier in the year, regarding season 2 - we were supposed to have Abbie in Purgatory for a longer time. We all know this already, and it wouldn't have necessarily been a bad thing. Originally, it was she would be there for like 4-5 episodes. I have a feeling that Goffman extended it to like 12 episodes, therefore FOX stepped in and said - NO!.

 

Others things we were supposed to get --> Ichabod and Abbie on a plane, Ichabod getting his drivers license, delving into Ichabod's relationship with his father (Victor Garber, we miss you), Ichabod's mother, backstory on Jenny, backstory on why Abbie is a Witness, backstory on why Ichabod is a Witness, a possible trip to New York, and a possible trip to London.

 

Out of everything promised, only the drivers license was realized. We still don't know why Abbie/Ichabod are Witnesses - regardless of the Mama episode. All of this was scrapped, to clear the altar and present us Katrina, Henry, CFD and more Katrina and CFD. It really is jarring, knowing the things that were supposed to occur (and I wanted to see), and then whilst the season unfolds, all you view is focus on a character that never grows, never learns, never exhibits great power. All we hear are the same words. Katrina is a powerful Witch/I must redeem him.

 

There was so much promise to this season, and if one DIDN'T know what was supposed to occur, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. I get that. Storylines change, evolve, get dropped. But almost ALL of them? This season, several storylines - potentially big ones - were dropped to showcase a showrunners muse, and on top of that, that story never evolved. It was rescue Katrina, she has powers, no she's weak, she goes back to capture, rescue Katrina, she has powers, no she's weak, she goes back to capture, ad nauseum.

 

All I can say is this --> There is clearly something valid about this thread and all of its contents and criticisms. If this entire thread and its contents were invalid, then ratings wouldn't have significantly declined, no hashtags would have occured, no articles would be published about "What went wrong" and "How to fix", FOX would have announced renewal at the TCA, and there would be no mention of "changes", no mention of "removing serialization". No reasurances would ever need to be deliverered. And this thread wouldn't exist.

 

I have never seen a TV show have such a meteroic rise, then such a rapid fall from grace. I've never seen such a backlash and I've never seen a network step in and announce major changes so openly. It will be interesting to see the results of this.

[DeLurker]

Orion told them what to do - "Kill the witch!'

Does he need to draw a map too?

[Indi]

Orion told them what to do - "Kill the witch!'

Does he need to draw a map too?

 

Exactly. I don't see the need to compromise, when most of the fans actively dislike her. She's a dead weight, a failed character and even keeping her as evil would bring little benefit at this point. It's easy to cut one's losses in a TV show, so why don't they do it?

 

[savinggrace]

Katrina is the one constant brought up among fans and critics as being the biggest issue with the show. If she's still around for Season 3 I'm going to have to assume a casting couch was involved somewhere along the way. We've gotten to see so little of Ichabod dealing with the modern world because he's bogged down dealing with people from his colonial past who should ALL be dead!

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Goffman and his minions are white washing SH and most likely pissed that

fans immediately sniffed out their fuckery.

[MissAlmond]

Ok, ok.  So Orion visited me and repeated that the witch must go.

 

What I really want to know is, even if this show is retooled, how exactly does FOX plan on getting viewers back?   There are so many other choices now, this isn't the days of three major networks.  It isn't even the early days of cable TV when HBO et al just aired movies.  The media world has changed and once people are gone, they're usually gone.  I don't see FOX wanting to spend loads of money mounting a campaign to let former viewers know the show they loved is back.   Maybe they're just aiming for Season 3 and hope things turn around just enough to be able to sell well for sydnication.  

 

 

We've gotten to see so little of Ichabod dealing with the modern world because he's bogged down dealing with people from his colonial past who should ALL be dead!

 

Yes to this.  It was another huge mistake to bring all these people from the past into the present.  

[MissAlmond]

Something I've noticed with a lot of shows these days are writers coming up with shockers.   I know about shockers on shows I have never watched (and never intend to) because the next day after airing, it's all over the Internet.  Producers/writers seem to get hyped up, like kids waiting for Christmas presents, just thinking about the glorious day when they can reveal just how clever they were to fool their audience.  It's come to a point that when I read headlines about the latest show and its shocker, all I do is roll my eyes.  That's what the Henry reveal was for me.  Sure, it was well executed production wise, but the last thing I needed from SH was the Sin Eater being the Crane's son.

[HalcyonDays]

I think Mison is intentional with Winter. I also was kind of shocked that Winter showed something when she was in pain in that awful Moloch pregnancy debacle...oddly, she connects with Neil Jackson...go figure.

 Intentional because the storyline dictates it therefore the acting dictates it? Or intentional by the actor himself - he just does not like Winter, or doesn't like acting opposite her.

 

They LOVE to fix what ain't broke. It's nothing new; especially in tv...tv folk aren't the brightest bulbs.

 

Don't they also make changes/go new directions so if it succeeds, it strokes their own egos?? That's why some of us have the muse theory - it seems to be his personal pet project to showcase one particular actress. But then again, who knows if FOX also wanted this, initially pushed this.

 

Also, I really don't care about the actors. They get paid a fortune (certainly, relative to everyone else) to play dress up and make-believe.

 

THIS I agree with (because I am a bitter cynical curmudgeon). I may like an actor, but they are paid well, so when they whine...well. We had a little jokey nickname at work for people like me and the other minions in a company ---> Mudflaps. We are the ones who do the dirty work, get all of the shit thrown at them, and none of the accolades. Season 3 (if there is) production will move to Atlanta, so all of those crew members are not longer working in Wilmington, NC, and no one bats an eye.

 

Huge amounts of money and high-level jobs are at stake. When shit hits the fan, they start chipping away from the bottom, firing the least powerful and influential people first...

 

Just like any other company. Blame the mudflaps, do major downsizing then reward yourself with a pat on the back and big bonuses. Yep, about right.

 

So in your experience, do you think that FOX finally stepped in and read Goffman the riot act. Or think he's not the problem. This type of announcement is very unusual (to me), so I wonder if this is all FOX PR to hide the truth, and the decision to cancel is already decided, or if they will bother with actually "changing" it.

 

I've always seen the mass exodus of many of the main show people in season 1 as --> Kurtzman and Orci had that FOX fallout, and other projects to do, as with Molina. Some just want to come in, do their consulting work, and move onto the next project. Some of the writers leaving is either them moving onto better projects, or Goffman surrounding himself with his yes men. (again I think its both). 

 

Thanks LinaLamont for your insight from an insider. Very interesting!!

 

If she's still around for Season 3 I'm going to have to assume a casting couch was involved somewhere along the way.

 

I'm going to ask everyone not to speculate on this. We all know Hollywood is notorious for people sleeping their way to the top, but we also know bosses are notorious for manipulating mostly young people to sleep with them to "advance their career". Think old Hollywood and the starlets from that time. The big names in Hollywood would take advantage of the young starlets and promise them a thriving career while preying on their vulnerability. Hey, for all we know, there is a scenario of seduction, but of course it almost always slut shames the women. I guarentee you no one would claim casting couch about Neil Jackson or Matt Barr or say Orlando didn't "casting couch", therefore he was sidelined this season/killed off. So please, let's not apply this label to Winter. Much Thanks!

[phoenics]

Ok, ok.  So Orion visited me and repeated that the witch must go.

 

What I really want to know is, even if this show is retooled, how exactly does FOX plan on getting viewers back?   There are so many other choices now, this isn't the days of three major networks.  It isn't even the early days of cable TV when HBO et al just aired movies.  The media world has changed and once people are gone, they're usually gone.  I don't see FOX wanting to spend loads of money mounting a campaign to let former viewers know the show they loved is back.   Maybe they're just aiming for Season 3 and hope things turn around just enough to be able to sell well for syndication.

I have the same question. I honestly don't know how they are going to do it - but they are going to need a HUGE event - some kind of stunt - to draw people back in. I *think* killing off Katrina could be it - coupled with a very clear message that they are going back to what worked in S1 (before the Golem ep) - but honestly I'm not really sure that will work.

I fear a lot of those fans are gone for good - which doesn't bode well for this show at all. That's 4 million people we'll never see again, lol.

 

Yes to this.  It was another huge mistake to bring all these people from the past into the present.

Yep. It made Ichabod less special. It's hard to accept his caustic tone and constant carping about how things used to be, when the show seems determined to give him his whole family in the present day. What does he really have to complain about?

When he was a man out of time and completely alone and abandoned in present day, you could take his comments very well. You could see underneath all of the whining was a man who was displaced and basically orphaned in this day and age with no real connection to his past. But with the CFD - he just looks whiny and uninteresting. It's hard to feel badly for him now because the writers have given him - basically - a happily ever after with a redeemed son and wife... while it's Abbie who seems to be losing everyone she loves.

It's just yet another example of the writers not understanding WHY Ichabod was so loved - before. They thought it was just him and that they could write him anyway they pleased and fans would rejoice. But Abbie's interaction with Ichabod was part of what made him so endearing to fans. Plus the fact that he was really like an orphan but worse. Without that - his constant carping and complaining is just that... constant carping and complaining.

Something I've noticed with a lot of shows these days are writers coming up with shockers.   I know about shockers on shows I have never watched (and never intend to) because the next day after airing, it's all over the Internet.  Producers/writers seem to get hyped up, like kids waiting for Christmas presents, just thinking about the glorious day when they can reveal just how clever they were to fool their audience.  It's come to a point that when I read headlines about the latest show and its shocker, all I do is roll my eyes.  That's what the Henry reveal was for me.  Sure, it was well executed production wise, but the last thing I needed from SH was the Sin Eater being the Crane's son.

If they had just made him the sin eater and war, that would have worked out just fine... and then later maybe had breadcrumbs leading to another reveal (but not that he was Cranes' son).

As far as KW, all I have to say about Winter is that I bet she's regretting that tasteless tweet directed at Ichabbie fans now. She trolled herself with that one... Karma.

Edited January 19, 2015 by phoenics

[HalcyonDays]

"We all know Hollywood is notorious for people sleeping their way to the top, but we also know bosses are notorious for manipulating mostly young people to sleep with them to "advance their career". Think old Hollywood and the starlets from that time. The big names in Hollywood would take advantage of the young starlets and promise them a thriving career while preying on their vulnerability." Hahaha...lost the quote button again...sorry.

It works both ways and it's not just actors. Everybody plays everybody for what they want in film and tv...and life...this includes Execs, Producers, Talent sleeping with other Execs, Producers, Talent...no-one is an innocent ingenue here...no-one's underage...this isn't old Hollywood. (Even back then, there was a lot of two-way playing, although, yeah, it was stacked much more against women until fairly recently). Everyone's pretty savvy and knows how to get what they want. Just saying...Winter sure got what she wanted...

 

Yeah, but no one is going to claim that Mison slept his way to the role of Ichabod Crane - ever. There will be complaints that Beharie did, but not the men. It's not that it doesn't happen - duh, of course it does. I'm one of the most cynical of the bunch - I believe the worst of people, and they never fail to disappoint me. Ever. Welcome to reality. Whatever Winter did or didn't do, I don't want anyone here to slut shame her, or any cast member. It's their own personal life. If they want to sleep their way to the top, by all means. It's their decision. More power to them. It's the judgement against the women that's the problem. So no slut shaming, SVP. Thanks.

 

BTW - LinaLamont - if you are doing this from your phone and you can't click the quote button, you can type in the QUOTE tags before and after the paragraph you want to quote.

 

Like this:

  blah blah here is the text I want to quote yadda yadda [/quote,]

 

Just don't include the comma after the word QUOTE. (I have to add it so prevent this post from actually quoting). I'll edit your post and throw in the quotes, so it looks better!

[catrox14]

From articles I remember reading earlier in the year, regarding season 2 - we were supposed to have Abbie in Purgatory for a longer time. We all know this already, and it wouldn't have necessarily been a bad thing. Originally, it was she would be there for like 4-5 episodes. I have a feeling that Goffman extended it to like 12 episodes, therefore FOX stepped in and said - NO!.

 

Others things we were supposed to get --> Ichabod and Abbie on a plane, Ichabod getting his drivers license, delving into Ichabod's relationship with his father (Victor Garber, we miss you), Ichabod's mother, backstory on Jenny, backstory on why Abbie is a Witness, backstory on why Ichabod is a Witness, a possible trip to New York, and a possible trip to London.

 

Out of everything promised, only the drivers license was realized. We still don't know why Abbie/Ichabod are Witnesses - regardless of the Mama episode. All of this was scrapped, to clear the altar and present us Katrina, Henry, CFD and more Katrina and CFD. It really is jarring, knowing the things that were supposed to occur (and I wanted to see), and then whilst the season unfolds, all you view is focus on a character that never grows, never learns, never exhibits great power. All we hear are the same words. Katrina is a powerful Witch/I must redeem him.

 

There was so much promise to this season, and if one DIDN'T know what was supposed to occur, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. I get that. Storylines change, evolve, get dropped. But almost ALL of them? This season, several storylines - potentially big ones - were dropped to showcase a showrunners muse, and on top of that, that story never evolved. It was rescue Katrina, she has powers, no she's weak, she goes back to capture, rescue Katrina, she has powers, no she's weak, she goes back to capture, ad nauseum.

 

All I can say is this --> There is clearly something valid about this thread and all of its contents and criticisms. If this entire thread and its contents were invalid, then ratings wouldn't have significantly declined, no hashtags would have occured, no articles would be published about "What went wrong" and "How to fix", FOX would have announced renewal at the TCA, and there would be no mention of "changes", no mention of "removing serialization". No reasurances would ever need to be deliverered. And this thread wouldn't exist.

 

I have never seen a TV show have such a meteroic rise, then such a rapid fall from grace. I've never seen such a backlash and I've never seen a network step in and announce major changes so openly. It will be interesting to see the results of this.

 

 

 

I didn't know anything that was supposed to happen this season. I just knew that they left Ichy in stasis, Abbie in Purgatory, Katrina off with Headless and Henry gloating.

I didn't read many spoilers at all over the summer. I was excited to see what was going to happen with Abbie in Purgatory and how Ichabod would get out of the coffin.  It had a perfect setup for like 2 or 3 episodes of them escaping and finding each other again.

And instead we get them getting out in like one episode and the Rise of Katrina: Worst Witch Ever.  And that alone left me disappointed but I thought, well okay, it'll get back to the Ichabbie and witnesses and the apocalypse and Zombie!George Washington and getting Irving out of jail and Jenny doing awesome things to rescue Abbie or what have you.  So for me being spoiler free left me horribly disappointed. If I had known about all the plans that didn't happen I don't know that I would have been more disappointed because I don't see how it would be possible to be more disappointed than I was after the first two episodes:(

[HalcyonDays]

And, I hate the idea that people think that women are weak or victims in equal-opportunity scenarios.

 

God no. Not at all. You mentioned it's very common in TV/Movie land. Like I said - more power to them, if it gets them what they want. If its equal opportunity, perfect. Problem is society thinks a successful woman is successful by sleeping with the big boss, whilst a man is successful solely on merit. Anyway, moving on....

 

Excellent - you got the quote tags working! Now go answer my questions above!! We're dying for your opinion. You mentioned Mison's acting being intentional when with Winter? How so? Go answer those other questions too....

[HalcyonDays]

...all I know, as a viewer, is that Beharie and Mison seem much flatter this season, even with each other.

 

This I agree with totally. Its very evident. That playfulness and fun and being able to play off each other so well is almost gone this season. I think its partially how they've dumbed Ichabod down and have no mindset other that on his wife. Also, there was many who thought that once Katrina was released from Purgatory, her presence would drag down the show, destroy the dynamic between the leads. Well, those people were right.

 

I appreciate your insight!! I figured you would know more of the innerworkings of how things work generally, then the rest of us schmucks who really know nothing but are just speculating for fun!! Thank you!!

 

ETA: It's easy for us to speculate on everything and say "fire Goffman" or get rid of Katrina, but as with anything in this world, it's all politics and who you know in the industry. We really don't know what the producers and presidents etc of FOX really understand what went "wrong" or how they think it should be "fixed". At the FOX TCA party thingy, apparently only Orlando Jones and Katia Winter were there, as the two SH people. Goffman wasn't as far as I know, so intrepret that what you will. For all we know, they will retool the show and showcase Winter, thinking she's the draw. Who knows.

 

For bold and italic tags, you just need the letter only between the square brackets. You don't need to spell out the whole word in this case! Fixed em for ya!

[blixie]

 

I guarentee you no one would claim casting couch about Neil Jackson or Matt Barr or say Orlando didn't "casting couch", therefore he was sidelined this season/killed off.

 

Oh I most definitely have speculated about the male casting couch via Gay producers Ryan Murphy and Kevin Williamson in particular, several very hot but questionable male actors cast on their various shows, but I take your point. 

 

All that's been required of Nikki in S2 is mugging and cut eye.

 

I hate Goffman, a lot.

[may flowers]

The saddest thought (for me) is that the actresses in the show (and I'm speaking specifically of Lyndie, Katia, and Nikki) may be doing exactly what is expected of them by the writers and producers. I've read that a writer thought Lyndie was hot, and, voila, bad ass Jenny is replaced by sexy Jenny - not someone who creates action, but someone who does exposition. But she looks good, and that's all that matters to the writers, so all is good! Katia seems to be someone's muse, and now we see Katrina as Ichabod's muse - not someone who acts, but someone who posits various ideas for others to act on. But really, she's useless.  And, Nikki - well, no one seems to know what to do with her, so Abbie is sidelined.

 

I'm just looking for reasons this show I cared about is no longer on my must see list...

[phoenics]

At the FOX TCA party thingy, apparently only Orlando Jones and Katia Winter were there, as the two SH people. Goffman wasn't as far as I know, so intrepret that what you will. For all we know, they will retool the show and showcase Winter, thinking she's the draw. Who knows.

There is no way they could possibly think this, is there? I mean - I'm seriously asking (begging)... they can't think she's the draw after all of this, can they?!?!

My voice just raised to a high pitched whine on "can they?!?!?".

That is interesting about the FOX TCA thing - especially with that tweet that went out about not taking some comments out of context by one of the S1 SH guys.

I do think that TM's and NB's absence is interesting... Maybe KW went to look for another show since she's going to get canned? Heh. My own little head canon.

[blixie]

I'm going to hope that Nikki and Tom were busy doing hella re-shoots and couldn't make it to the TCA event.

[savinggrace]

 

I'm going to ask everyone not to speculate on this. We all know Hollywood is notorious for people sleeping their way to the top, but we also know bosses are notorious for manipulating mostly young people to sleep with them to "advance their career". Think old Hollywood and the starlets from that time. The big names in Hollywood would take advantage of the young starlets and promise them a thriving career while preying on their vulnerability. Hey, for all we know, there is a scenario of seduction, but of course it almost always slut shames the women. I guarentee you no one would claim casting couch about Neil Jackson or Matt Barr or say Orlando didn't "casting couch", therefore he was sidelined this season/killed off. So please, let's not apply this label to Winter. Much Thanks!

 

 

Sorry, didn't meant to open a can a worms. In my defense I only start to get "casting couch" thoughts when someone is clearly a bad actor/actress and/or their character is strongly disliked for the wrong reasons (i.e. being lame versus being a great villian) yet the person keeps inexplicably getting breaks. My thoughts definitely aren't limited to female actresses though. It just so happens no else on this show is as glaringly bad an actor as Katia Winter so she raised my hackles a bit. That said, you're right. It's not fair to assume that there's some two way street going on with her and Goffman. It's clear Goffman LOVES him some Katrina and that likely accounts for of all the screen time Katia is getting this year. Hopefully the Fox execs have pulled him into a dark room and shaken some sense into him.

 

As for Nicole and Tom appearing flatter this season I agree and it's not surprising. Their characters have been put at odds all season with Katrina wedged between them. Their effortless chemistry has been thrown off. There have been instances where I felt like maybe some real life feelings on the plotlines are bleeding through in their character reactions. I think it has happened more so with Nicole whose role this season has been largely reacting to the Crane ratchedness. At the end of the Heartless episode where Abbie has to tell Katrina that she's been a big help and they need her,I felt that maybe Nicole was not feeling that line too much.

 

Someone above wondered how they will gain back viewers. They basically need a fresh reset and a more serious tone. The show got really corny and people fled.They also might need to do some stunt casting. Give a story arc to a big name star who will generate some buzz --not all these small-time stars they keeping tossing in at random. The glaring thing about the show right now is how little buzz there is. No one is talking about any shocking or cool thing that happened in any of the episodes. That "water cooler" type of talk can generate interest among people who don't want to feel left out but to date Sleepy Hollow has not had an extraordinary episode.

Edited January 19, 2015 by savinggrace

[savinggrace]

SH most definitely needs new writers. I don't get the sense the current batch even like Sci-fi/Fantasy.

[DearEvette]

I'm going to hope that Nikki and Tom were busy doing hella re-shoots and couldn't make it to the TCA event.

 

That is my theory as well.  I still think that the Jenny/Hawley stuff from the last episode was all reshoots inserted in post production, considering those two very craftily did not share any scenes with anyone else, and the only scene of Abbie on a phone with Jenny she was in a shot all by herself.  So, I totally think Tom and Nicole being MIA at the TCAs is work related. 

 

I agree with everyone else that the chemistry between Mison and Beharie feeling off can be attributed to the presence of Winter.  Lord knows I don't think much of her acting, so this isn't really a slight to her, but so much of her has been inserted in their dynamic and so clumsily that it can't help but throw them off.  Also, I would not be surprised if there is some direction in there the specifies the two of them acting at odds.  I have long suspected that the over-insertion of Katrina is not only the result of Goffman's baffling investment in her but also I feel that TPTB et. al consciously tried to downplay the Ichabbie stuff to either artificially create a true shipping war (let's face it Ichatrina has about only 10 devoted stans total) or to just stop the Ichabbie stuff cold.

[HalcyonDays]

Sorry, didn't meant to open a can a worms. In my defense I only start to get "casting couch" thoughts when someone is clearly a bad actor/actress and/or their character is strongly disliked for the wrong reasons (i.e. being lame versus being a great villian) yet the person keeps inexplicably getting breaks.

 

Please don't feel bad, savinggrace. And don't think those thoughts didn't float through my mind. Then I have to slap myself for allowing myself to think like that. Woman have enough problems in the world without perpetuating this stereotype too. *bad me!*  We all know casting couch scenarios exist. But we also know that female actresses are judged a lot on looks/body, while the males have a pass. So I don't want this board to go there, because I believe we are better than that. :')

 

Scratch that - I KNOW we are better than that on this board. I bet some of you already have, but if you've read any of the racist garbage that came out this weekend after the TCA announcements, you'd be appalled and livid (or maybe not surprised). It's not the first time, it won't be the last, but regardless, it's garbage.

 

SH most definitely needs new writers. I don't get the sense the current batch even like Sci-fi/Fantasy.

 

That's what I think too. If they did, they would be thrilled with developing the Sleepy Hollow universe and mythology and creating a show "bible" to adhere to. It seems like they are just going through the motions, hence the uncreative ideas and stale dialogue.

 

There is no way they could possibly think this, is there? I mean - I'm seriously asking (begging)... they can't think she's the draw after all of this, can they?!?!

 

I'm cynical so anything's possible, so you never know. I guess we will find out soon enough. And yeah, lets hope its because of reshoots. Four more episodes to go. We'll know by the middle of February, I guess.

[phoenics]

I have long suspected that the over-insertion of Katrina is not only the result of Goffman's baffling investment in her but also I feel that TPTB et. al consciously tried to downplay the Ichabbie stuff to either artificially create a true shipping war (let's face it Ichatrina has about only 10 devoted stans total) or to just stop the Ichabbie stuff cold.

I can believe this. I think that they were truly surprised at the massive response to Ichabbie. But at the same time, I'm not sure. There is a clip of Len Wiseman (I think it's Wiseman) who said that at the end of the Pilot, the scene shared by Ichabbie had an element of romance to it - so I don't know that I completely buy that they never saw the Ichabbie shipping coming. They clearly saw it from the pilot.

Whether or not they changed their mind or what I don't know - but... I dunno.

Clearly at some point they were convinced that Ichatrina was it, so they pushed that... whether that was once Goffman took over the show in full I have no clue anymore.

I do think a LOT of the "tell, not show" mess we've seen this season is the writers trying really hard to push Ichatrina to the forefront at the expense of Ichabbie. It's "We're telling you to love Ichatrina and their drama and NOT to love Ichabbie romantically. Just do what we TELL YOU."

That duped CPR scene in Deliverance after the CPR scene in Weeping Lady was literally a slap in the face to Ichabbie shippers, as was the ridiculous searing music and all of the other things the show did to try to force Ichatrina on us.

And then the ratings plummeted. Right then.

I think part of the anger on the part of fans who bolted is that they KNEW the writers were trying to force them to give up Ichabbie.

Sad part is, the show thought it could just ride on Ichatrina, with a bit of token Ichabbie - but always with Ichatrina being the primary coupling... and the fans said... "Nope!"

I can understand a show trying to show angst for a platonic pairing - but it's usually not at the same time you're trying to pimp another romantic one. You end up with two diluted products. The show is trying to have its cake and eat it too. Trying for Ichatrina AND a platonic (hitting us over the head with that one) Ichabbie (which is being strained by Ichatrina).

It's a lopsided and ridiculous "triangle". Most fans can't stand legit triangles... much less a weird one like this.

[FurryFury]

I can believe this. I think that they were truly surprised at the massive response to Ichabbie. But at the same time, I'm not sure. There is a clip of Len Wiseman (I think it's Wiseman) who said that at the end of the Pilot, the scene shared by Ichabbie had an element of romance to it - so I don't know that I completely buy that they never saw the Ichabbie shipping coming. They clearly saw it from the pilot.

 

I remember some pre-show interviews with some of the writers or producers that basically implied that while they weren't going to play the will-they-or-won't-they card with Ichabod and Abbie, they certainly didn't think it was out of the question. So, to an extent, at least some of them were expecting a shipper following for them. The actors weren't, from what I gather, but some of the producers and writers have had a lot of experience on TV, so they understood how these things work.

 

Goffman probably didn't expect and/or want the show to go into this direction, though, thus the Ichatrina focus. I'm pretty sure he was the one who decided to not kill her off in s1 finale.

Edited January 20, 2015 by FurryFury

[DearEvette]

That duped CPR scene in Deliverance after the CPR scene in Weeping Lady was literally a slap in the face to Ichabbie shippers, as was the ridiculous searing music and all of the other things the show did to try to force Ichatrina on us.

 

 

That CPR scene in Deliverance enraged me.  Not because it was a blatant 'see what we did here' to Ichabbie fans, but because it was a slap in the face to Abbie herself.  No Effing way would Abbie have just sat with a derp look on her face while Katrina was dying.  She would have been the one doing CPR, not Ichabod.  It was a low form of pandering.

 

I remember some pre-show interviews with some of the writers or producers that basically implied that while they weren't going to play the will-they-or-won't-they card with Ichabod and Abbie, they certainly didn't think it was out of the question. So, to an extent, at least some of them were expecting a shipper following for them. The actors weren't, from what I gather, but some of the producers and writers have had a lot of experience on TV, so they understood how these things work.

 

Goffman probably didn't expect and/or want the show to go into this direction, though, thus the Ichatrina focus. I'm pretty sure he was the one who decided to not kill her off in s1 finale.

 

Yeah, this is why I was so puzzled by how disingenuous all the writers sounded at ComiCon with all the Ichabbie questions.  Dude, you've been doing interviews all year where you 'don't dismiss' the possibility of some future romance.  And then all pf a sudden they are like "Chemistry? Romance?  What are these foreign words you are using in relation to Ichabod and Abbie?"  And yeah, this is why I suspect the whole Katrina push was sooo deliberate.  Not necessarily story dictated but completely writer dictated -- and story illogical -- to manipulate fanbase.  Huge mistake.  Fandom is an organic thing.  You can't mold it the way you want it to be.  It develops and grows on it's own.

[vanarnd1]

I can understand a show trying to show angst for a platonic pairing - but it's usually not at the same time you're trying to pimp another romantic one. You end up with two diluted products. The show is trying to have its cake and eat it too. Trying for Ichatrina AND a platonic (hitting us over the head with that one) Ichabbie (which is being strained by Ichatrina).

It's a lopsided and ridiculous "triangle". Most fans can't stand legit triangles... much less a weird one like this.

I agree the writers thinking that they can push Ichatrina as much as they have and have Ichabbie co-exist with that was a major miscalculation. The previously enjoyable interactions between Ichabod and Abbie always have the specter of Katrina hanging over them and it doesn't allow the show to breathe because everything in the end revolves around the CFD.  That is how we get scenes like Abbie giving marriage advice and Ichabod breaking up Abbie/Katrina arguments and as you said it ends up being some awkward pseudo-triangle with all parts of the relationships being strained.

 

What we have seen on screen this season seems to be the conflict between what Goffman wants to show from a creative standpoint(Ichatrina) and what is included to try and appease fans(Ichabbie). By trying to feature 2 main character pairings Ichatrina has been exposed for having no chemistry and the Ichabbie chemistry has been greatly diminished as well. It has really proved to be a lose-lose situation for the show that might not be able to be salvaged.

[phoenics]

*watches latest episode*

"And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you kill a show."

[Amethyst]

*watches latest episode*

"And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you kill a show."

 

My thoughts exactly.  This episode was a boring mess.  If this is what they're showing up to the season finale, there's no hope of getting those lost viewers back.  If anything, they'll lose more.

[phoenics]

If Wiseman is back leading the show now (instead of Goffman), I wonder if he's looking at the scripts with the same WTF expression we've had all season.

[Indi]

I'm sorry to say this, but Ichy has reached the irredeemable point. He's not worthy of carrying the Witness mantle and he's almost as intolerable as Katrina.

[phoenics]

I actually felt kinda bad for Tom Mison in this episode... the spark he got when Abbie came back at the end was just ... telling.

[jhlipton]

I haven't seen the latest episode -- I just wanted to reply re the Hawley-centric episode.

 

Namely, I think it's a good thing:  It strikes me as being shot relatively recently.  Most of the actors may not be available, so they'd have to pick one and shoot other scenes around him.  All of the other episodes have already been shot, so we're still going to see a lot of dreck, but we may have to suffer through one less CFD episode.

 

Rose-colored glasses: ON!

[pcta]

I couldn't bring myself to watch tonight's episode. I admit I read some tweets during the east coast broadcast and they did push me into the non viewer camp. I don't know how they can lure back viewers. They need some positive social media buzz. There seemed to be three categories of positive tweets tonight. 1. Woe Katrina looks hot in that dress. 2. Official tweets. 3. SH - best show ever. Don't cancel SH. None of those made me anxious to watch. If there had been positive tweets from fans (not the show) that had specifics of good things in the show, I might have been swayed to watch.

Oops forgot one group of + tweets - they revolved around Irving

[statsgirl]

My daughter had a Monday night class last term and couldn't watch Sleepy Hollow with me so this was her first episode this season, and she was surprised how much less interesting it's got.

 

In the scene with Abby and Jenny, she said about Abby "She's like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, smart, snarky and just rolling her eyes at the craziness", where as the Ichabod/Katrina scenes were just... bland, maybe because Katrina herself is bland and Icahbod (like Giles) needs someone sparky to play off of.  At the end when Icahabod left Abby to go to Jenny (ah, metaphor!), my daughter said "I hope they break up now" (after watching just one episode of them) but alas! it was not to be.

[Enero]

*watches latest episode*

"And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you kill a show."

I cannot believe they thought an entire episode about Katrina and Crane investigating a haunted painting should supersede the return from the dead of the beloved Captain Irving. Captain Irving whose soul was owned by Moloch when we last saw him. This goes to the very core and mythology of the show. For the writers to ignore this story to explore date night with Cranes shows how lost they truly are. They have no idea what they're doing and I honestly don't think another retooling or change to the show in front or behind the scenes will buy them a clue. Edited January 20, 2015 by Enero

[LydiaMoon1]

I don't think for one minute that the writers are lost.  Everything they've done has been purely intentional.  When Goffman first said that the writers felt hampered by the Apocolypse mythology, he was simply speaking in code.  What he was really saying was that two witnesses were needed as long as fighting the Apocalypse was the core mythology of the show.  Get rid of that mythology and you can get rid of one of the witnesses; namely Abbie Mills.   Once that was accomplished, they could then get rid of Jenny and Irving and promote Katrina to co-lead.  In preparation for that, they began sidelining all three.  Last night's episode was the culmination of the groundwork that had been laid, i.e, SH starring Tom Mison and Katia Winter.  The just didn't anticipate that the viewers would completely rebel and that the network would be forced to intervene.  Other than that, everything went according to plan.

Edited January 20, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[BestestAuntEver]

I don't think for one minute that the writers are lost. Everything they've done has been purely intentional. When Goffman first said that the writers felt hampered by the Apocolypse mythology, he was simply speaking in code. What he was really saying was that two witnesses were needed as long as fighting the Apocalypse was the core mythology of the show. Get rid of that mythology and you can get rid of one of the witnesses; namely Abbie Mills. Once that was accomplished, they could then get rid of Jenny and Irving and promote Katrina to co-lead. In preparation for that, they began sidelining all three. Last night's episode was the culmination of the groundwork that had been laid, i.e, SH starring Tom Mison and Katia Winter. The just didn't anticipate that the viewers would completely rebel and that the network would be forced to intervene. Other than that, everything went according to plan.

Considering there's another Karina focused/centered episode coming up, the rumored rewrites/shots aND the rumored forced changes to the finale, I have to agree with the above whole heartedly.

Goffman's whole trust me shtick was a pathetic ploy that numerous people didn't buy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show is canceled.

[MissAlmond]

 

Scratch that - I KNOW we are better than that on this board. I bet some of you already have, but if you've read any of the racist garbage that came out this weekend after the TCA announcements, you'd be appalled and livid (or maybe not surprised). It's not the first time, it won't be the last, but regardless, it's garbage.

 

 I saw them.   As soon as the TCA announcement hit the news, I knew these comments would come out.   I do believe Katrina is Goffman's muse but by shifting the show to highlight her, it brought along set of viewers who, let's just say, are not progressive in their thinking.

 

I still want to know exactly how - if FOX is serious - they plan on saving this show.   And even if they do find a set of writers who change things up, how do they plan on getting this word out and regaining former viewers trust that they're serious.  Heck, they can't even use the word "trust" after Goffman's infamous "trust me" comment.  I still believe FOX wants to wash its hands of this show and move on, but also wants to recoup money in syndication.  They're probably hoping for a Season 3 that's serviceable enough to avoid another round of bad reviews in order to put a deal in place. 

[Indi]

I do believe Katrina is Goffman's muse but by shifting the show to highlight her, it brought along set of viewers who, let's just say, are not progressive in their thinking.

 

Goffman's target audience maybe?

[blixie]

 

 

*watches latest episode*

"And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you kill a show."

 

Yeah I managed to watch only about five minutes total and those five minutes were PAINFUL the beginning where Abbie has to play relationship counselor to Whitey McWhispersons (Abbie and Diggle should trade notes) ,and then seeing Struggle Witch struggle with her witchery until Abbie saves their asses. AGAIN.

 

At this point they have damaged Ichabod's character SO much, they have spent so much time digging an ever deeper hole of DGAF toward their audience I'm not sure this show, which was *such* a delicate balance to begin with as Mo Ryan pointed out, can ever recover it's frothy bat shit in sane fun.

[MissAlmond]

 

Goffman's target audience maybe?

 

It’s probably more a marriage of convenience, with each having their own agenda.   Goffman gets to have episode after episode starring his muse.  These posters, in turn, praise the Katrina storylines because, to them, it means no Ichabbie.  Ever.  If (and that’s a big if) FOX does manage to turn SH around with Ichabod and Abbie again in the forefront and the ratings soar, reading postings from these people will be very entertaining indeed.  But no matter what, I don’t worry about Goffman.  He’s an industry veteran and well versed enough in the language of double-speak to stay there.

[Sasha]

As soon as Crane learned he had a son in Santuary, I knew it was the beginning of the end. Everything that made the pilot different and crazy was replaced with this soap opera and man pain. A classic jump the shark moment before they had enough episodes under their belt to keep an audience. I do think they will get a third season but it's too late and it will quietly fade away. Maybe used as a cautionary tale of not what to do (Heroes) or just not remembered at all (Flash Forward).

I actually had to google John Cho to remember the title of Flash Forward. Now he has another show to leave off the resume. Poor thing you still have Star Trek!

Edited January 20, 2015 by Sasha

[pcta]

As soon as Crane learned he had a son in Santuary, I knew it was the beginning of the end. Everything that made the pilot different and crazy was replaced with this soap opera and man pain. A classic jump the shark moment before they had enough episodes under their belt to keep an audience. I do think they will get a third season but it's too late and it will quietly fade away. Maybe used as a cautionary tale of not what to do (Heroes) or just not remembered at all (Flash Forward).

I wish I had been as perceptive as you. Would have saved me many episodes of angst wondering why/when/what had happened to the show I loved.

[allyw]

As soon as Crane learned he had a son in Santuary, I knew it was the beginning of the end. Everything that made the pilot different and crazy was replaced with this soap opera and man pain. A classic jump the shark moment before they had enough episodes under their belt to keep an audience. I do think they will get a third season but it's too late and it will quietly fade away. Maybe used as a cautionary tale of not what to do (Heroes) or just not remembered at all (Flash Forward).

For me it was Necromancer, I remember enjoying the episode until it was reveal that Headless was Abraham. He was this big bad scary entity and of course they just had to "humanize him". That was what made me started giving Sleepy Hollow the side eye and even though I liked some parts of the following episodes, "The Vessel" was the only other season one episode I enjoyed in its entirety. 

[savinggrace]

The expository dialogue in this how continues to be the worst. Most mystery shows actually show the actors building clues and putting the pieces together, On SH they have full minutes worth of dialogue where they deduce 3/4ths of whatever mystery they're investigating. They find clues without effort.and are able to make great logical leaps to get to their answers. Laziness pervades the writing on this show.

 

I've noticed the trailers for upcoming episodes are becoming increasingly incoherent. The one for the next week is unintelligible. It's like they put more thought into masking Katrina's presence than they do trying to entice people to see the show.

[evilmindatwork]

I'm not saying that the showrunners are a bunch of Klan carrying racists, but something is off about them.  From where I sit, they have this attitude that Katrina is the only woman on the show; that Abbie and Jenny aren't really attractive women; that Katrina is the one all the men want.  That attitude is not only racist, but untrue.  I was on Twitter last night and just about everybody on there can't stand Katrina or her bad wigs.  So what's the deal then?  I think the showrunners are scared shitless because they have two very attractive WOC and have no idea what to do with them, so they cast them aside, and as a result the show is suffering; and is beginning to suck.

 

This, this, this! 

[RiddleyWalker]

OK, I'm a white male (apparently the demographic the show was hoping to draw in) and though Katrina as the distant, mysterious woman in the opening credits was intriguing, the reality has been…hmmmm…disappointing? Katrina as the character they've presented is not interesting, not intriguing and not sexy. Abbie has always been too reserved and buttoned up to be sexy to me (as was Olivia Dunham on season 1 of Fringe) but if her character was "grown" she certainly could be--tight clothing is not all that's needed to make a woman "sexy"--that goes for both Katrina and Abbie IMO. If the Show wants "white woman sex appeal", they could bring in any number of "visiting" actresses to provide that. Shoot, the girl that gave Ichabod the eye in the bar scene at the mid-season finale was far more enticing than Katrina. 

 

ETA: Nicole Beharie is certainly gorgeous but Abbie (the character) is wound so tight, with no (apparent) soft spots that she doesn't seem like someone a person (meaning me... in fantasy land) would consider romantically. Is this because of the "strong black woman" trope? I really can't speculate on that but would love to hear other opinions. There's a totally different vibe from Jenny, BTW.

Edited January 21, 2015 by RiddleyWalker