S04.E08: Smash The Mirror Pt 1 / S04.E09: Smash The Mirror Pt 2

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's also a little weird that Will was so mellow about helping Robin find validation for cheating on Marian right after talking to Robin about how he knew how much Marian had sacrificed for Robin. It was just *shrug* "I did tell you to follow your heart." You'd think his reaction would have been more like, "That wasn't what I meant!" I suppose maybe he was very, very drunk.

I want to know why no one cares about Marian but Regina. I haven't even seen anyone ask if how the situation is going. People talk about how great of a person she was, and we've seen it in the flashbacks, so the way her possible death is being treated nonchalantly boggles my mind. Roland isn't coming into anyone's equation, either.

 

Is Marian that vanilla?

Edited November 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I want to know why no one cares about Marian but Regina. I haven't even seen anyone ask if how the situation is going. People talk about how great of a person she was, and we've seen it in the flashbacks, so the way her possible death is being treated nonchalantly boggles my mind. Roland isn't coming into anyone's equation, either.

 

Is Marian that vanilla?

Most likely, it's for a couple of reasons.  They've got a lot of story going on already, happening in a fairly short amount of time.  Then, the more people you have asking concerned questions about Marian (and Roland), the more obvious it is that people Storybrooke would most likely not be "Whoo!  Regina had crypt sex!  With Robin!  That's exciting!" it for all the reasons we've talked about how disturbing the crypt sex is, and the more oooky the Regina/Robin thing becomes to the audience, as well.

 

I don't know if the writers are so dumb they haven't figured out those things are still issues, or if they're just expecting all of us to be that dumb.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Mari

[Serena]

The only way to make people be less creeped out with OQ is to completely ignore Marian and to call her "vanilla" and other nice terms. It's sad, really, because the writers managed to make people root for Snowing and make Kathryn an awesome, kickass person as well. But then, OQ are no Snowing.

[YaddaYadda]

Is Marian that vanilla?

 

That's the thing, she's not vanilla and it sucks that they decided to represent the character this way.   She's no competition for Regina...got it, loud and clear.  We don't even know who Marian is or how she is and they're not interested in telling us anything about her outside of Marian is a boring old bore who apparently sacrificed a lot for her dickhead husband to the point where he actually changed and became the legendary man we're supposed to know but it's not enough because he has fallen in love with Bold and Audacious.

 

I never defended a character I knew nothing about.  Marian has been on ice half of the season so whatever....

 

I really hate this show sometimes.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The only way to make people be less creeped out with OQ is to completely ignore Marian and to call her "vanilla" and other nice terms. It's sad, really, because the writers managed to make people root for Snowing and make Kathryn an awesome, kickass person as well. But then, OQ are no Snowing.

 

The priorities on this show... I understand some things have to go to the wayside to keep the plot interesting, but Marian is on her freaking deathbed. Robin is her husband for heaven's sakes, and he's not concerned at all. It's good and fine if he wants to move on from her, but there's a level of human decency that's sorely lacking with this supposed proclaimer of "moral code". If they want a jerky douchey character, they could have at least made him anyone but Robin Hood.

 

I almost wish they would have left Robin in offscreenville with Marian for a while and kept Regina with Henry. The Outlaw Queen stuff hasn't felt very necessary, imo. They're holding out on a lot of the drama (via the freeze spell) that they probably won't unleash until 4B. Seeing them angsty date with no consequences is painful.

 

 

That's the thing, she's not vanilla and it sucks that they decided to represent the character this way.   She's no competition for Regina...got it, loud and clear.  We don't even know who Marian is or how she is and they're not interested in telling us anything about her

 

I actually find Marian to be kind of cool from what little we've seen of her. I wish she could have gotten as much screentime as Kathryn before she got popsicled.

 

 

Marian is a boring old bore who apparently sacrificed a lot for her dickhead husband to the point where he actually changed and became the legendary man we're supposed to know but it's not enough because he has fallen in love with Bold and Audacious.

 

That makes things even sadder - Robin isn't only rejecting Marian, but the very basis of who he is.

Edited November 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

I rewatched the episode and I think my favorite scene is when Rumple looks like he is ready to lose it with hook. He has the look -- you are too stupid to live look and it is talking ever thing I have not to kill you. He has that look when Hook is telling him that he loves the look of Loss on Rumple's face. My next favorite is when the Snow Queen threatens to redocorate her place with Rumple's bones.

[jhlipton]

My wish now:  that the "Disney writers" (or whoever is handling the Frozen portion of the show) kick out Adam and Eddy and take over.  Wouldn't that be awesome?

 

 

It's not Emma's magic that's a deus ex machina it's all magic on this show. The writers make shit up left and right according to what the plot demands for all the characters. They don't have any rules of magic at all.

That's my complaint about "magic has a price" -- there are no rules at all that govern the price.

[darkestboy]

Parts of this episode were slow but it was essentially an interesting two parter.

 

Is it wrong that I want Ingrid to succeed and eventually be redeemed? I know she pitted Elsa and Anna against each other and I know she was responsible for Elsa being trapped in that urn but damn it, I really like her.

 

Besides if Regina and Gold can do horrible things and sort of get happy endings, I don't see why Ingrid can't.

 

I did like that Ingrid, Emma and Elsa all embraced their power. The last scene alone was great. Elsa and Emma's friendship is also pretty fantastic.

 

Hook's basic purpose on this show is mainly to get rescued, the crap kicked out of him and now to be a puppet for Gold/love interest for Emma. I don't think he'll die though.

 

Regina and Robin have sexy times in a crypt reminded me of Game Of Thrones and that isn't a good thing. Everything about their relationship is feeling more and more contrived by the minute.

 

Robin did have some good scenes with Will as did Regina with the Charmings and Henry.

 

Surprised Belle didn't even show up once during this extended episode, 8/10

[Mitch]

That's the thing, she's not vanilla and it sucks that they decided to represent the character this way.   She's no competition for Regina...got it, loud and clear.  We don't even know who Marian is or how she is and they're not interested in telling us anything about her outside of Marian is a boring old bore....

 

The thing is, it would be much more interesting if Marion was competition for Regina, and NOT frozen. The whole plot is good in a soapy kind of way, Robin thought his wife was dead (cause she really was..but it would be interesting to know, in the EFs version of Heaven, did her soul get sucked back into her body to make the trip to the future ...oh forget it my head hurts) and he moved on with his life. He got involved with a hot babe...(no matter what you think of Regina she IS hot..) and then wow...my wife is back. It would be interesting if they had shown things werent so perfect with Robin and Marion to begin with, he was idealizing his wife, or, he changed because of her death and became a different person and she is essentially the same person and is freaked out by the change, etc.

 

Instead of having Regina save them from the Ice Monster in that dumb scene, she should have been able to come up with a cure for Marion, so then the conflict is, Marion is both angry at and thankful for Regina, she wants to stay in her marriage and change Robin back to what he was and she fights for him and "twu wuv," but things dont work that way in our world so...Robin wants to honor his marriage though he is not the same man and does not love her in the same way...Regina wants Robin but is starting to not only reform but get her self esteem back and realize she is better then being a bang on the side...Anything would be more interesting then an ice cube and screwing in a crypt. But the writers always bite off more then they can chew with all the plots and every interesting beat is skipped.

[Shanna Marie]

Upon a rewatch (given the lack of new episode tonight), I still don't understand this book plot. Where is Regina getting the idea that the author of the book is keeping her from getting a happy ending, and how does she know that the author thinks that villains are villains, no matter how much they try to be good? Where in the book is there a villain trying to be good and not getting a happy ending? Doesn't the book stop with the curse being cast? Is there some other villain aside from Regina we haven't seen who has a story about trying to change and still having bad things happen? I also don't get how the page with the alternate outcome proves anything. None of this makes any sense.

 

And I'm increasingly creeped out by the whole "sleeping with a married man is nothing to be ashamed of" bit. Yeah, it kind of is, especially when his wife is under a curse. That's like a man cheating on his wife while she's in the hospital (and I've known way too many people in real life who had that kind of thing happen -- as with Rumple and his wife-murdering, they're inserting real-world ick into fairy tale stories and trying to make it look romantic).

 

Something that occurred to me: The Apprentice tells Ingrid that she'll be reunited with Elsa and meet Emma. The reunion with Elsa only happened because of the time travel adventure, so does that mean the time travel was somehow destined or foretold? It sounds like before Emma was even born, the Sorcerer knew she'd be born, where she'd end up, and that she and Ingrid would meet Elsa, who at that time was in an urn, locked in a vault, in a different world from where Ingrid was sent. And if the time travel was destined, then maybe Marian's true destiny was to be rescued by Emma. There was timeline one, in which Marian was apparently executed and Elsa was stuck in a vault in Rumple's castle while everyone else was in our world, and then there's timeline two after Emma traveled in time, in which Marian is rescued and Elsa is brought forward in time to our world, and that's the timeline the Sorcerer knew about.

[Camera One]

Something that occurred to me: The Apprentice tells Ingrid that she'll be reunited with Elsa and meet Emma. The reunion with Elsa only happened because of the time travel adventure, so does that mean the time travel was somehow destined or foretold? It sounds like before Emma was even born, the Sorcerer knew she'd be born, where she'd end up, and that she and Ingrid would meet Elsa, who at that time was in an urn, locked in a vault, in a different world from where Ingrid was sent. And if the time travel was destined, then maybe Marian's true destiny was to be rescued by Emma. There was timeline one, in which Marian was apparently executed and Elsa was stuck in a vault in Rumple's castle while everyone else was in our world, and then there's timeline two after Emma traveled in time, in which Marian is rescued and Elsa is brought forward in time to our world, and that's the timeline the Sorcerer knew about.

 

Yeah, I was wondering about that the other day.  I mean, Hook randomly took Elsa's urn from a cupboard, and that's how it accidentally ended up falling through the portal back to the Future.  So if Elsa hadn't arrived from the Past, would the Snow Queen still have initiated her plan?  

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Spoilers about Regina's book.

[Shanna Marie]

So if Elsa hadn't arrived from the Past, would the Snow Queen still have initiated her plan?

I don't think she could have. She needed three of them who were born with magic. So I guess Elsa's being brought over was foretold. And I suppose that means Hook being with Emma was foretold, since he was the one who got the urn out.

 

And it's looking more and more like the summer speculation about a similar urn in his cabin on the Jolly Roger was much ado about a bit of random set decoration because there doesn't seem to be any link whatsoever between the urns, other than that maybe Hook has a thing for urns and can't resist one when he sees it. There's no indication that there's another urn in play, unless that's going to be our season deus ex machina.

 

Hey, now we know how they can get Jafar as a villain -- Hook will see an urn he can't resist.

[HeimrArnadalr]

Yeah, I was wondering about that the other day.  I mean, Hook randomly took Elsa's urn from a cupboard, and that's how it accidentally ended up falling through the portal back to the Future.  So if Elsa hadn't arrived from the Past, would the Snow Queen still have initiated her plan?  

Well, she'd have to do something sometime, since she's not getting any younger running an ice cream shop by herself in a tiny town. She probably would have tried to befriend Emma (again) and then storm Rumple's castle with Emma's help to rescue Elsa. Or she could make a deal with Rumple, but without the hat I don't think she'd have anything he'd want.

[Serena]

If Hook hadn't taken Elsa's urn from the past, wouldn't the urn have been in Gold's shop? That seems where his basement of creepy ended up. So Ingrid could have simply freed Elsa from Gold's shop in the present, I think.

[KingOfHearts]

If Hook hadn't taken Elsa's urn from the past, wouldn't the urn have been in Gold's shop? That seems where his basement of creepy ended up. So Ingrid could have simply freed Elsa from Gold's shop in the present, I think.

The show is a bit ambiguous about this. Belle asked Rumple in 3x21 if they could keep the dagger in his vault, which implies he has access to it. If the whole thing transferred to Storybrooke, you got to wonder what else is underneath town. (Along with Maleficent's chamber and the dwarf mines.)

[Shanna Marie]

The show is a bit ambiguous about this. Belle asked Rumple in 3x21 if they could keep the dagger in his vault, which implies he has access to it.

But is that the same vault? It seemed like she was actually referring to the safe, or maybe something like a bank vault. I don't think we've seen anything else from the Dark Vault with no exits show up in the shop (Yet. Until they need it for the plot). Not all of Rumple's magical stuff made it to Storybrooke. There were still things there when Neal went there before going to Neverland. Come to think of it, haven't all the items that came over been non-magical? The fairies had the black wand, but have there been magical objects or items with power in the shop? It seems like the curse (the first one, at least) would have left anything magical behind.

[OnceUponAJen]

Well, Cora's spell book came over in the first curse. Does that count as a magical item?

[HeimrArnadalr]

Wasn't the spellbook in Regina's Mausoleum of Evil along with all the hearts? Regina may have gotten to choose some magic things to bring over, assuming the book itself is magic and not just an instruction manual on how to perform magic.

 

There was at least one magic item that came over: the True Love potion that Charming put in Maleficent. The amount of effort Rumple had to go to to get that into Storybrooke probably indicates that magical items weren't otherwise brought over.

[OnceUponAJen]

I believe Regina had to go to Gold for the spellbook when the curse first broke so that she could get her magical mojo back.

Edited November 24, 2014 by OnceUponAJen

[KingOfHearts]

 

I believe Regina had to go to Gold for the spellbook when the curse first broke so that she could get her magical mojo back.

This is correct. Regina gave Rumple the book in the 2x02 flashback, then asked for it back in the present.

[Shanna Marie]

So we've got the spellbook and the potion that made it over in the curse. But I haven't been able to think of any other magical objects. Cora brought over the magical locator globe on the Jolly Roger. And now the hat made it over in curse 2, but it remains to be seen how that's going to play out. The Apprentice wasn't living at the mansion where the hat was, while we've seen him guarding it in the Enchanted Forest. Hmm, I wonder if all this has been an elaborate trap for Rumple. The Sorcerer is going to jump out and say, "Surprise!"

 

I would suspect that Rumple would have avoided bringing over the vault full of magical items he considered so dangerous that he kept them where no one could get to them. He wouldn't want to release Elsa in Storybrooke (since he immediately tried to kill Regina after the curse broke, I'm thinking he wouldn't have wanted any magical competition), and he'd have had to release her to use the urn to capture someone else. So I'm still going with the trip back in time as part of the fate the Sorcerer apparently foretold -- even more apt since it was Emma, the foretold third sister, who brought the urn back so the three "sisters" could be united. Hook may have got the urn out, but Emma opened the portal in time that sucked the urn back with them.

[ShadowFacts]

Regina had a few magic-retaining trinkets she used early on when trying to open a portal or something, around Jefferson's episodes maybe.  And Rumple was recently spouting exposition about how magical objects never completely lose their properties, they may change, yadda yadda.  There may be other things that came over, who knows.  Hook getting sucked in the portal, the portal being there at all, Zelena's wanting to go back in time, if all of that was known by the Apprentice, he is pretty god-like.  That's reminding me a little too much of Jacob on 'Lost'.  I do think that the Apprentice is playing the long game on Rumple, however. 

[Donny Ketchum]

While it's good to finally have the answers of what happened to Anna (which also apparently happened to Kristoff), should that be right that they're still in Arendelle?  Hasn't it been established that they live in the same world as the Enchanted Forest characters?  If so, shouldn't they have ended up in Storybrooke, too?  I thought that the Dark Curse hit every place in their world except the region Cora protected from it.  That they didn't end up in our world either time it was cast (by Regina or by Snow) and have instead remained frozen for all these years is a bit puzzling to me.

[Faemonic]

While it's good to finally have the answers of what happened to Anna (which also apparently happened to Kristoff), should that be right that they're still in Arendelle? Hasn't it been established that they live in the same world as the Enchanted Forest characters? If so, shouldn't they have ended up in Storybrooke, too? I thought that the Dark Curse hit every place in their world except the region Cora protected from it. That they didn't end up in our world either time it was cast (by Regina or by Snow) and have instead remained frozen for all these years is a bit puzzling to me.

I'm guessing that the best place for Elsa to start looking for Anna is the place where Elsa already is. I don't know how much up to getting urned Elsa remembers, I mean, why didn't Ingrid get the rock trolls also wipe out Elsa's memory of Anna at all in the urn? But in any case, once Elsa got out, she struts around, knows that she should be with her sister, walls the town because she wants answers, finds people who actually met Anna (well, that one guy) and a way of tracking Anna down. I don't know if Bo-Peep's staff magic can traverse dimensions, but that's all they have to go on.

Maybe Elsa was going to take the wall down so that she and Emma could go on a road trip following Bo Peep's staff. Since Elsa couldn't, and Ingrid obviously knows what happened but is making a bigger thing happen, then Elsa's got to face the DQ, then melt the wall, then find out where on earth or Misthaven or Aradelle Anna and Kristoff are.

Basically, just because we know that Anna's frozen in Arandelle doesn't mean that Elsa knows or even would automatically go, "Okay! Let's take Bo-Beep's staff and find a bean hat mermaid shoes door portal to the same world as Arandelle and Misthaven!" Elsa might want to melt the ice wall first just in case, like, Zelena's version of The Dark Curse brought a chunk of Arandelle over too.

There is a town in Quebec...where every character in that one film is trapped between two worlds, incidental victims of a powerful curse.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Faemonic

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm guessing that the best place for Elsa to start looking for Anna is the place where Elsa already is.

 

Elsa also found Anna's snowflake necklace in Gold's shop. The last Elsa knew, that necklace was in Anna's possession. We know now that Rumple pulled it out of the fire after Anna threw it in and that's how he came to be in possession of it, but Elsa does not, so she's working off the assumption that Anna's necklace being in Storybrooke means Anna is somewhere in Storybrooke because the necklace came with Anna.

[ShadowFacts]

More magical objects popped into my head -- the yellow ribbon bracelets in the lovely presentation box.  That shop is a gold mine. 

[KingOfHearts]

Gold's shop also had Pandora's Box, the wraith summoner medallion, the Fairy Godmother's wand, the magic dreamcatcher, the Dark/Light candle, the invisible chalk and the nightroot.

 

The Black Fairy's wand and Jefferson's hat came over with the curse as well.

Edited November 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Hook getting sucked in the portal, the portal being there at all, Zelena's wanting to go back in time, if all of that was known by the Apprentice, he is pretty god-like.

I doubt the Sorcerer or Apprentice knew the details -- that there would be a curse that caused Emma to grow up in our world, then years later a psycho witch would open a time portal, that Emma would get sucked into it and followed by a pirate with a thing for urns, that they would get locked in the Dark One's vault, get out the urn, then open another time portal home. But he seems to have seen the result, which is that Ingrid, Emma and Elsa would unite in our world, since that's where he sent Ingrid, even though Elsa and her urn were in Rumple's castle and Emma would be born in the Enchanted Forest.

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe the Sorcerer knows the end result, not necessarily how character A or B will get there.  Maybe he knows the characters' destinies.  If your destiny is supposed to be this, then it doesn't matter how you get there, it can take an eternity but you'll get there eventually.  Maybe the Sorcerer knows the end result.  He sends Ingrid through the door to the Land without Magic knowing that she'll find Emma somehow and will be reunited with Elsa. 

[Jul 68]

The Black Fairy's wand and Jefferson's hat came over with the curse as well.

I thought that Jefferson's hat wasn't magical in and of itself. The way I remember it, the hat required magical objects placed into it in order to work. That was why we saw Regina use what bits of magic junk that she brought with her to SB to reach in and retrieve the poisoned apple from Misthaven (I like that name better than EF). Edited November 27, 2014 by FLutterby

[KingOfHearts]

 

I thought that Jefferson's hat wasn't magical in and of itself. The way I remember it, the hat required magical objects placed into it in order to work. That was why we saw Regina use what bits of magic junk that she brought with her to SB to reach in and retrieve the poisoned apple from Misthaven (I like that name better than EF).

That was only because there was no magic in Storybrooke. Some magical items store magic, while others use the magic in the air. (Like the Dark One's dagger) They're tools for wielding spells, but where they get it can differ. There are even items like wands that require magic from the user.

Edited November 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I rewatched these last night because it was cold, I made apple turnovers, and it seemed like a good night for Once Upon a Time, and I figured I ought to rewatch what's still available OnDemand leading up to the mid-season premiere.

 

I hadn't seen these episodes since the mid-season finale, and watching them with what I know now makes me want to rename them "Smash the TV." I'm not even sure where to start.

 

There's the grossness of the cryptsex. There's Regina's bizarre "it's the Author's fault that I can't have a happy ending because the storybook says villains don't get happy endings" logic. There's Snow's "sleeping with a married man is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact, I did it too. Never mind that he was actually my own husband and it was your spell that made us think we weren't married, it totally means it's okay for you" speech to Regina. There's the epic slow-motion walk on the desperate mission to keep Emma from losing her magic -- Team Charming even started out in a car and it seems like both Elsa and Hook were on foot, and yet they beat them there.

 

But now even the parts I liked on the first go-round are ruined. And I guess the rest of this is spoilery for future episodes. Hook's desperate voice mail message confessing everything and his hope that Emma will never forgive him because that means she got the message, was warned and therefore survived

is now meaningless. Emma never got the message, never heard any of this, and we never got to see her reaction to any of the things he did or that happened to him.

Emma getting control over her magic and the power that came with that

came to nothing because in the grand finales of both plots, she was reduced to standing there, doing nothing

. The hint we got of the Shattered Sight spell with Anna was frightening and devastating, since it brought out the dark thoughts in her. She spoke the truth, or at least parts of it, and it hurt. But when the same spell was done on the whole town,

it was basically a Three Stooges episode

.

 

There were some missteps before these episodes this season, but with the potential established here they could have really had something cool.

[Camera One]

Otherwise known as "How To Squander An Extra Hour The Network Gave You".

[KAOS Agent]

And even with that extra hour stuffed with filler and a yay! adultery conversation, they couldn't find the time to include the excellent Elsa/Snow conversation about magic and changing yourself to suit others. A lot of the deleted scenes from this show probably weren't that necessary or interesting, but that one was a really good one and should have been included in this episode. 

Snow's turnaround to Emma and her magic and its staying power seems more realistic after seeing her understand things from Elsa's perspective and truly get what she's asking/wants Emma to do.

[Camera One]

I get the difficulty A&E had in getting an extra hour, presumably after they had already planned out this episode (I think that's the assumption, right?  It would have been even harder if they had already filmed part of the episode).  

But I still think they could have done better.  

The flashback worked with the extra hour.  There was a little bit of filler, but it did finally show what actually happened to Anna and how Elsa got urned.  That story actually gave the actresses who played Elsa and Anna something good to work with, and how often do "heroes" get meaty stuff on this show?  I'm finding that the Snow Queen is more one-dimensional than I remember her to be in the present-day.

I had forgotten that the Elsa/Snow scene was meant for this episode, and it shows a lot that they still left it out with the extra time.  The (mis)use of Snowing in this episode was criminal.  

The current-day plotline was sparse and obviously stretched out to the point that it became tedious with horrible pacing.    Emma playing the "Elsa running away" plotline for 2 hours until the end made her forced to spin her wheels until the big climax.  

And really, I don't think there was any way to fully save the episode given the requisite Regina/Robin Hood subplot.  This was the splinter embedded within the fabric of 4A.  Hmm, I wonder if in future episodes, Regina would acknowledge that the Curse she herself enacted was responsible for Mary Margaret being in the position to commit adultery, since she certainly didn't in this one.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I hate how this episode introduces Page 23 and...

Spoiler

it's never explained. It's just something random to confirm Outlaw Queen is "true love". We learned later that Isaac wrote it as a fanfic or something, but never why it appeared in the Storybrooke library all of a sudden. It's a little too mystical for this show, as if Storybrooke is an entity like the Island from Lost.

44 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm finding that the Snow Queen is more one-dimensional than I remember her to be in the present-day.

Spoiler

She doesn't really get much dimension until 4x10, "Shattered Sight", but by then, it's too little, too late. The writers waited way too long to show the foster mom backstory. They could've done a lot more with Emma/Elsa's being conflicted over killing her.

[Shanna Marie]

This was such a boring episode. Emma spent so much time hovering outside that door and being just on the verge of going in, but then being stopped one more time, that it bordered on parody, and I was wanting to push her in.

I don't think they ever figured out what the deal with the book was, but that didn't stop them from filling episodes with nonsense about it. So, Robin thinks it has powerful magic that's keeping Regina from having a happy ending, but in the same episode Snow tells her she just made bad choices and maybe now things can be different since she's making different choices. Which is right? How does having a picture of a possibility that Regina rejected make any difference? They've known all along that she had that choice but went a different way. There are lots of places where her life could have been different, probably better.

Hook seems to be in an entirely different show during this phase of the arc, with all the intense drama and urgency while the rest of them wander around, all that emotion and drama and sacrifice without anyone being aware of it.

Rumple's "You're my oldest friend, dearie" is rather ironic in light of the fact that

Spoiler

Rumple later declared WHook his best friend.

And Rumple's actions and attitudes here make it baffling

Spoiler

that any of these people were willing to tolerate him ever again. Rumple was perfectly willing to destroy Emma to get her power. He's lying to Belle the entire time. But Belle takes him back after a brief separation and they all try to save him.

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't think they ever figured out what the deal with the book was, but that didn't stop them from filling episodes with nonsense about it. 

How does having a picture of a possibility that Regina rejected make any difference? They've known all along that she had that choice but went a different way. There are lots of places where her life could have been different, probably better.

Now I'm imagining Regina finding Page 23 and then Page 26, 29, 31, 45, 78, 99, 133, 146, 189, 199, 203, 283, 382, 483, 489, 588, 623, etc. etc. etc.  

Spoiler

At least we now know we will get satisfying payoff for Page 23 two seasons later.  See how clever they are in building the groundwork for future developments?

And we would get an entire arc (4B) about the book and the Author.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

As for Emma, her problems just come out of the blue. Did Ingrid put a whammy on her to make her lose control? Because otherwise it makes no sense that she's never had trouble controlling her magic before, and now all of a sudden she's going totally haywire.

This question continues with this next episode "Smash the Mirror".  Ingrid tells Emma "The only way this would end this is if you embraced who you are."  She had never had Hot Hands™ before, so does this mean she embraced her magic and who she was before this?  How did Ingrid cause it to go out of control?  Just by introducing doubts into her mind?  

How come Henry showing up didn't make a difference?  Surely, she believes he genuinely accepts her.  He loves magic.  Oh wait, it's not Tuesday, Thursday or Friday, and on the other days, he wants to destroy all magic.

Spoiler

Emma has never had the Hot Hands™ since 4A.   Now Shaky Hands™ is another story.

The Apprentice tells Ingrid: "There are many who desire an audience with the Sorcerer, but he only speaks through his Apprentice"

Spoiler

Naturally, since the Sorcerer is trapped inside a tree, LOL.

When Ingrid tells the Apprentice she needs a third magical sister, he says "A match like that would take a long time."  Huh?  What match?  Couldn't she ask Zelena or Regina or Cora or any other magical woman to be the third sister?  How come it's more exclusive than 

Spoiler

the Coven of Coat Hangers?

Edited February 10, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This question continues with this next episode "Smash the Mirror".  Ingrid tells Emma "The only way this would end this is if you embraced who you are."  She had never had Hot Hands™ before, so does this mean she embraced her magic and who she was before this?  How did Ingrid cause it to go out of control?  Just by introducing doubts into her mind?  

The episode makes a lot more sense if we learn that Ingrid did something to her at the police station, just to make Emma feel insecure about magic. Of course, that then backfires when instead of it driving Emma to Ingrid, it drives her to Rumple to get her powers taken away.

Speaking of magical control ... When Ingrid got urned, she didn't have control of her magic. That was her problem that got her urned. But she gets de-urned and suddenly has total control and knows a lot about magic. Was she conscious and able to practice while in the urn? Is it like a genie's bottle, where she's shrunk down and basically living in a small apartment? Are there magic books in there for studying? How would Ingrid have known about the hat, how it worked, and what Rumple would need to do? How did she learn the shattered sight spell? How did she know what to do with the ribbons? She and her sisters just thought they were a symbol when they gave them to Rumple, and she was urned soon after that. The ribbons were in Gold's shop all this time, apparently. Why didn't Ingrid go in and buy them during the curse, when Gold wouldn't have known anything about their value? She had the perfect opportunity to go through all his stuff in his shop when he wouldn't have known what was going on. You'd think she'd have at least bought the ribbons and the necklace. (This is the danger of retcons like "Ingrid was here before Emma got to town." There are things you'd think she'd have taken advantage of while she was the only person other than Regina who knew who everyone really was.)

One other thing that annoyed me: The latest iteration on the "I was such a brat" theme, with Snow basically blaming herself for her and Regina not having a great relationship while she was growing up because she was spoiled and selfish (or something like that). That's not what they've shown us. We saw not-yet-10-year-old Snow having one spoiled, selfish moment, getting reamed for it by her mother, learning a valuable lesson from that moment, and then growing up quickly when her mother died and she had to make a tough choice and then be strong for her people.

Spoiler

Later, we see her going out to protect her people from bandits -- oh yeah, the bandits Regina hired to make Snow look bad. Such a spoiled brat, putting herself on the line to protect her people.

It's bad enough that they seem to have decided that Snow really was to blame for everything. But they aren't even consistent within their own show. They show Snow being good, kind, and brave, even as a child, while Regina the adult sulks and does petty cruelties. And then they have Snow talk about how spoiled and bratty she was. Supposedly hero Regina, who knows what she was doing to Snow all that time, doesn't challenge Snow's "spoiled brat" statements, doesn't come clean with what she was doing, takes no blame for being a terrible stepmom. And then it's topped off with Snow taking blame for committing adultery during the curse, with no admission by Regina that it was her curse that put Snow in the situation where sleeping with her own husband became adultery, since Regina created a fake wife for David just to keep him away from his real wife.

Elsa definitely needs to hire new guards. Not only do they sleep on the job, but they also switched their allegiance to some random stranger who showed up so that the actual queen, who should be their boss, is having to sneak around her own palace because the guards are all answering to Ingrid. It would have maybe been one thing if they were older guards who remembered Ingrid as the future (and, I guess, rightful) queen, but they're young men who probably weren't born when Ingrid was urned and there was a memory spell done on the whole kingdom, so no one remembers Ingrid.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about what scenes to cut to make this one hour long instead of two.  

25 minutes in was probably when they began to add padding in earnest, unless Crypt Sex wasn't originally in this one.  I suppose they didn't need to show Ingrid hiding the Hat before the scene with the Apprentice.

Robin Hood and Will and their adventures in the library was clearly added, which added padding later in the episode as well when Regina joins them in the library. 

Rumple trapping the Snow Queen in her circle may have been a shorter scene (since they needed to explain why Ingrid was MIA). 

Probably several of the scenes in the apartment were added, including Regina's scene with Henry (so what was the price of magic for healing Henry?).   It felt like it took them an awfully long time before they realized Elsa was gone. 

Emma crashing her car and interacting with Ingrid's vision was definitely added.  Then, they inserted all the scenes with the heroes "tracking" aka Snow giving Regina a pep talk. 

They probably lengthened the conversation between Emma and Rumple in the mansion.  A&E are lucky the actors were good enough to make filler scenes work for the most part, so it was harder to tell when they were just stalling for time. 

They probably added an additional minute or two just showing the hat and Emma standing around in the mansion. 

Hook picking up the Hat for Rumple was another additional scene.  Another one is probably Ingrid getting out of the urn circle and swiping over the ribbons.  That scene wasn't necessary.  They could have jumped to Emma and Elsa realizing the ribbons were on their wrists.

In the flashbacks, I think some of the scenes in the first half finding the urn might have been added.  Which would have been a shame since Elsa, Anna and Kristoff working together was quite fun.  

Regina cares soooo much about Emma as a friend if she just leaves to meet with Robin Hood when Emma is about to lose all her magic.  

Edited February 10, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Regina to Robin in the library: "I got here as fast as I could."

Was her magic not working or something?  Did she decide to walk?

Edited February 10, 2019 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The episode makes a lot more sense if we learn that Ingrid did something to her at the police station, just to make Emma feel insecure about magic. Of course, that then backfires when instead of it driving Emma to Ingrid, it drives her to Rumple to get her powers taken away.

Speaking of magical control ... When Ingrid got urned, she didn't have control of her magic. That was her problem that got her urned. But she gets de-urned and suddenly has total control and knows a lot about magic. Was she conscious and able to practice while in the urn? Is it like a genie's bottle, where she's shrunk down and basically living in a small apartment? Are there magic books in there for studying? How would Ingrid have known about the hat, how it worked, and what Rumple would need to do? How did she learn the shattered sight spell? How did she know what to do with the ribbons? She and her sisters just thought they were a symbol when they gave them to Rumple, and she was urned soon after that. The ribbons were in Gold's shop all this time, apparently. Why didn't Ingrid go in and buy them during the curse, when Gold wouldn't have known anything about their value? She had the perfect opportunity to go through all his stuff in his shop when he wouldn't have known what was going on. You'd think she'd have at least bought the ribbons and the necklace. (This is the danger of retcons like "Ingrid was here before Emma got to town." There are things you'd think she'd have taken advantage of while she was the only person other than Regina who knew who everyone really was.)

Good questions how did Ingrid learn all this stuff she didn't know before going into the urn? It would have fun to watch Ingrid going around frozen Storybrook in a flashback and acquiring stuff she needed and just having fun messing with people. How did Regina never notice a new person in her curse? Ingrid wasn't under the curse nor did she know anyone there but just played along and figured it out? The Universe's Greatest Mom never took Henry for ice cream? Never notice the ice cream shop or someone taking it over? Never noticed for all those ice cream trips she was apparently taking Roland? All under her watch? Rumple never noticed? He supposedly notices everything and never once recognized her after the Curse broke? 
 

Quote

One other thing that annoyed me: The latest iteration on the "I was such a brat" theme, with Snow basically blaming herself for her and Regina not having a great relationship while she was growing up because she was spoiled and selfish (or something like that). That's not what they've shown us. We saw not-yet-10-year-old Snow having one spoiled, selfish moment, getting reamed for it by her mother, learning a valuable lesson from that moment, and then growing up quickly when her mother died and she had to make a tough choice and then be strong for her people.

It's bad enough that they seem to have decided that Snow really was to blame for everything. But they aren't even consistent within their own show. They show Snow being good, kind, and brave, even as a child, while Regina the adult sulks and does petty cruelties. And then they have Snow talk about how spoiled and bratty she was. Supposedly hero Regina, who knows what she was doing to Snow all that time, doesn't challenge Snow's "spoiled brat" statements, doesn't come clean with what she was doing, takes no blame for being a terrible stepmom. And then it's topped off with Snow taking blame for committing adultery during the curse, with no admission by Regina that it was her curse that put Snow in the situation where sleeping with her own husband became adultery, since Regina created a fake wife for David just to keep him away from his real wife.

I really hate that part. Its horrible that Snow of course says she's a brat as if that was true or in any way justifies what Regina did to her. Nope, not even close. I love your "supposedly hero" that's spot on. But that is one thing I hate about the show. They make Snow say that and clearly seem to believe it. But never once show us Snow being bad, evil or even a brat. There was only that one episode and she was corrected from her mother and learned from it. They want us to believe Regina was victim and not evil and is now a hero when they love to show us Regina being evil loving it and enjoying it and never show her changed in anyway or acting like hero. A changed person, a hero tells her stepdaughter no she wasn't a brat and nothing she ever did justified her crime. A hero doesn't even considering having affair with the husband of the woman she originally murdered in the past before it was undone.  Regina clearly did cast the curse and she clearly created a fake wife for David. She did everything she could to keep David and Kathryn together when that didn't work and Kathryn decided to leave and let David be with Mary Margaret, Regina had her kidnapped and framed Snow for her murdered. Not only should they all remember that Snow should be reminding Regina just of that. Then again she should also be remembering that Marion originally died because she wouldn't tell Regina where Snow was.

[KAOS Agent]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

How did Regina never notice a new person in her curse?

There was some sort of scene in the ice cream shop that addressed this, but I don't remember whether it was in an episode or was yet another deleted scene. Ingrid tied up one of the dwarfs and had him hidden behind the counter when Regina came in and questioned Ingrid's presence. She ultimately bought whatever story Ingrid was selling. Really though I have no idea how many people are in Storybrooke and Regina seems to find pretty much everyone beneath her notice, so it's not surprising that she wouldn't notice Ingrid's arrival in town. Regina can't even remember the people whose hearts she took. Why would she remember random peasants who work in the ice cream shop? Especially a shop which never actually existed in Storybrooke until S4 decided it did and had retcons with Emma visiting it because it was Henry's favorite. I think the shop was actually the shelter where David worked in S1.

[andromeda331]

41 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

There was some sort of scene in the ice cream shop that addressed this, but I don't remember whether it was in an episode or was yet another deleted scene. Ingrid tied up one of the dwarfs and had him hidden behind the counter when Regina came in and questioned Ingrid's presence. She ultimately bought whatever story Ingrid was selling. Really though I have no idea how many people are in Storybrooke and Regina seems to find pretty much everyone beneath her notice, so it's not surprising that she wouldn't notice Ingrid's arrival in town. Regina can't even remember the people whose hearts she took. Why would she remember random peasants who work in the ice cream shop? Especially a shop which never actually existed in Storybrooke until S4 decided it did and had retcons with Emma visiting it because it was Henry's favorite. I think the shop was actually the shelter where David worked in S1.

I forgot about that scene. Thanks for the reminder. Of course now that makes me wonder why that dwarf never told anyone. Not his brothers, Ruby, Snow, Emma the sheriff that he was tied up? Or did Ingrid take his memory? Regina is strangely easily convinced for someone who you'd think wouldn't want her Curse broken. Then again this is the same woman who couldn't manage to play nice with Emma in the pilot long enough for Emma to go home. 

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Or did Ingrid take his memory? 

Yes.  I forgot about the scene too.  

I vaguely remember in Season 4, they released a deleted scene after each episode or something?  That was nice.

[andromeda331]

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Yes.  I forgot about the scene too.  

I vaguely remember in Season 4, they released a deleted scene after each episode or something?  That was nice.

Thanks. I forgot about that scene too. Its nice that they explained that part. 

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

A hero doesn't even considering having affair with the husband of the woman she originally murdered in the past before it was undone.

I keep thinking that if Regina really were a hero, she'd have seen Marian being brought back as a kind of happy ending because it meant one less crime she'd committed. Only a villain would have been able to reap the benefits of being evil by being able to date a man whose wife she imprisoned and executed. So, instead of whining about not getting a happy ending because life is unfair, a real hero would have seen Marian being saved as a sign that she had a chance to be a hero because she'd dodged a bullet. A hero wouldn't have been allowed to stay with Robin under those circumstances.

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

Regina cares soooo much about Emma as a friend if she just leaves to meet with Robin Hood when Emma is about to lose all her magic.  

That's where Hook seems to be in an entirely different story. He's running around all frantic, desperately trying to find out where Emma's gone, leaving increasingly urgent voice mails, being on the verge of tears. Meanwhile, everyone else is ambling along, chatting, on their way to talk Emma out of giving up her magic, and then Regina gets a call from Robin and Snow's like, "Go on, it's okay, that's probably more important." True, Hook knew something they didn't, but still, they're supposedly going to talk Emma out of doing something drastic, but it's no big deal. It would have been funny if Snow sent Regina away because Regina wasn't exactly the best argument for keeping magic, but alas, I don't think that's what they were going for.

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It would have been funny if Snow sent Regina away because Regina wasn't exactly the best argument for keeping magic, but alas, I don't think that's what they were going for.

That would have been funny.  Since they cut out Elsa's scene, Regina became the one to actually convince Snow that they needed to go after Emma.  David was being the devil's advocate saying that maybe Emma losing her magic might be for the best.  Except they know full well that there's always a price and we're supposed to believe Snowing didn't realize that Emma went to Rumple to get de-magicked.  Heck, even Regina didn't connect the dots.

These last two episodes reminded me how annoying it is that the heroes are constantly running to Rumple for help.  I suppose in 4A, they all thought Rumple was reformed, but still.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Camera One