S07.E10: Faith And Despondency

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Who?

[Captanne]

Considering this entire season is driven by a murder that took place last season, one of the last things I would do to these characters is accuse them of forgetting fallen friends.  (IIRC, Jax still has a patch to Horatio, er, Opie on his cut.  I'm shitty at finding pictures -- anyone else?)

 

In the "Gemma Appreciation" camp - one thing I totally give Sagal credit for is the consistent way she's portrayed Gemma as utterly and pathologically obsessed with "family".  She will do anything anything to protect them and to keep them tightly wrapped around her finger.  Last week, when they were having the table talk in the dining room (Gemma, Wendy, Jax and Nero) about Abel, Gemma was almost in spasms when they talked about a psychiatrist and then decided to remove "her boys" to the old house (and out of hers.)  She's pathological -- any hint of those boys being out of her line of sight that is based on a decision not her own, makes her shake with anxiety.

 

It's like a drug addiction and I give Sagal credit for that.  It totally comes across to me with a lot of force.

 

Don't get me wrong:  She's a psychopath.  Perhaps Gertrude was in Hamlet -- but I don't remember Shakespeare ever giving her the personality traits to lead one to think she would have gone to the lengths Gemma has.  (I don't think Gertrude was ever portrayed as that bright, honestly.  Certainly not as conniving as Gemma.)  Gertrude, imo, was more of a pawn than a mover-shaker.  Events happened to her rather than her making events happen around her.  (Btw, it just dawned on me the other day that Bobby is most aptly compared to Polonius, I guess?  Jax caused his death through mistakes and wrong-minded action?  Bit of a reach but as close as I can get.)

Edited November 16, 2014 by Captanne

[spaceytraci1208]

Katey Sagal is a great actress...but Gemma gotta go down! I think it's a testament to Katey's performance that I (and many others) hate Gemma so much.

Speaking of great actors whose characters just had to go, I've really been missing Ron Perlman. Clay was an evil bastard and they really needed to get him the fuck outta here, but at the same time I think he went too soon lol.

[Captanne]

I've been in love with Ron Perlman since "Beauty and the Beast"  -- well, duh.

 

When he did Hellboy, I sat up and really took notice.

 

He just never disappoints.  He's wonderful.  

 

BTW, I've just started binging "Vikings" on the history channel and, first of all, bless Travis Fimmel -- he's so much better since he left that mess "Tarzan" -- but he is the spitting image of Charlie Hunnam.  So, I've got Jax Teller-lite but still covered in blood.  And now I see Donal (Someone) as King Horrik -- he was that crazy agent in the motel room from season "whatever" in SoA.  It's like everyone is migrating to Norway and, instead of a .9mm, they are carrying battle axes.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Captanne

[La Tortuga]

Okay, having 2 kids of my own, and having volunteered in a classroom full of 5-year-olds, I can attest that a kid that age can most definitely possess the capacity to be conniving and carry out deviant plans--even intentionally teach negative behaviors to younger siblings. Yes, there are limits. But since Abel's teacher planted the seed of the idea in his brain ("whoever did it could get in trouble") and Abel immediately connected the dots ("like with the police?" is a reasonable assumption for a kindergartener to make), yes, I think it's reasonable that Abel concocted a plan after his brief conversation with his teacher. I hear a lot of chatter about Abel being developmentally delayed because of the way he talks, but verbal skills and reasoning skills are two different things.

 

As for the teacher and child services investigator, I think they should be interested in why nobody noticed his arm bleeding when he arrived at school, and the freshness of the injury when he brought it to his teacher's attention. But even with that in mind, Gemma has already made a verbal threat directly to the teacher, and she is directly connected to a well-known local gang whose members have been in and out of jail. Even if the investigator concludes that Abel did this to himself, it's still his job to determine the likelihood of future abuse; he has reason enough to wonder why a five-year-old would do such a thing, and he would certainly take reports of the grandmother's aggression and criminal ties into consideration.

[henripootel]

Gemma has already made a verbal threat directly to the teacher, and she is directly connected to a well-known local gang whose members have been in and out of jail. Even if the investigator concludes that Abel did this to himself, it's still his job to determine the likelihood of future abuse;

Good point, and no way Gemma gets off without a few questions even if they decide Abel did this to himself.  That said, there seems to be precious little reaction and curiosity about getting to the bottom of this, most notable from Gemma.  She knows damn good and well that she didn't do it, so instead of standing there looking shocked (and possibly guilty) she should probably have gone off like a volcano.  Somebody harmed her kid and they got him to blame his own grandmother?  This is Gemma - I wouldn't be surprised if guns were produced.  

 

Her reaction to this seems odd, and oddly plot-serving.  Like the scene a few weeks back where Happy and Rat solemnly took Gemma for a ride ... to help a woman ween off drugs.  I can see where Sutter was going with this but it seemed to come at the expense of logic of character.  Not hugely but enough to take me out of the story a bit.

Edited November 16, 2014 by henripootel

[GraceAnne]

After every new episode I have to listen to a bunch of my co-workers talk about how "Fucking awesome" and " Cutting edge" SOA is.... And my faith in humanity continues to die a small death.

What was this episode, soft core porn?

Writing a show as if it's a 14 year old boy's wet dream does not make you a daring and innovative writer.

[La Tortuga]

Good point, and no way Gemma gets off without a few questions even if they decide Abel did this to himself.  That said, there seems to be precious little reaction and curiosity about getting to the bottom of this, most notable from Gemma.  She knows damn good and well that she didn't do it, so instead of standing there looking shocked (and possibly guilty) she should probably have gone off like a volcano.  Somebody harmed her kid and they got him to blame his own grandmother?  This is Gemma - I wouldn't be surprised if guns were produced.  

 

Her reaction to this seems odd, and oddly plot-serving.  Like the scene a few weeks back where Happy and Rat solemnly took Gemma for a ride ... to help a woman ween off drugs.  I can see where Sutter was going with this but it seemed to come at the expense of logic of character.  Not hugely but enough to take me out of the story a bit.

 

I agree with you that Gemma, if she were at the top of her game, should be going off on everyone around her, and possibly even trying to blame the kid Abel beat with a lunch box before. But (plot-serving though it may be) I think we can attribute Gemma's stunted reaction to the fact that her world is coming apart. Tara's death and Jax's subsequent descent into grief and rage are the direct result of Gemma's actions. Juice could, at any time, change his story about who really killed Tara, and there is nothing Gemma can do to stop that from happening now that he's out of her reach. Her lover told her he wanted to pick up and leave, because he can see the world around him imploding and putting his own kid in danger largely because of the gang war Gemma started. Bobby's death is the indirect result of Gemma's lies. And as much as Gemma continues to insist that Abel will be "fine," he is clearly not fine, and the things he says to her remind her that this, also, is her fault. She is square in the middle of a shitstorm of her own making, and she knows it. That would mess up anybody, even a strong-willed person like Gemma.

 

Also, at this point there's just nothing Gemma can say that will make this go away. Gemma's already made it clear to the teacher that she finds violence acceptable, that she looks for any excuse to justify it ("that other kid must have provoked Abel"), and that she doesn't want psychologists asking Abel personal questions. Any of Gemma's normal reactions would only confirm the teacher's suspicions.

 

I do find it telling that, other than her initial look of shock when Abel blamed her for his scratches, the scene ended, and we didn't get to see what Gemma had to say for herself to the Child Services investigator. It's not like Sutter doesn't have extra screen time to play with in order to write such a scene; he just chose not to include that in the final script. So I think we the audience get to imagine for ourselves how the rest of that conversation went before the show jumped to the family meeting.

[Kel Varnsen]

Bottom line -- as much as I like the idea of Tig and Venus, there is no way guys in a motorcycle club would be totally cool with one of their members dating a transexual -- especially one that's kept the original equipment below the belt.

I didn't buy it either. I mean Juice thought he was going to be kicked out for having a possible black dad. Yes I know Juice is an idiot but it obviously speaks to how accepting the club is. So at the same time Tig has no worries about who he is dating. And as interesting and well acted as the final Tig/Venus scene was, I thought it was just more filler to pad an already over long episode.

 

Taking out Marks' crew was satisfying, but again the writing made no sense. I didn't buy that they would just drive out to this remote address without at least doing a little recon first to make sure it was legit and not an ambush. The guy was supremely arrogant and overconfident, but he was clearly not stupid, and that move just wasn't believable for the character IMHO.

This was the stupidest part of the show. Although it seems every season someone who either should be smart or has been shown to be smart all of the sudden acts dumb just so Jax can prevail. I mean everything I know about special ops and that kind of thing I learned from TV and even I know that it in that kind of situation you stake out the house for at least a few hours before you hit it (thanks Michael Weston). Plus there was no rush to storm the cabin. I mean yes Marks was in jail, but his trial wasn't going to start anytime soon. You can wait a day before you kill the witness, so sit on the house for awhile see who comes out. Hell an infrared camera costs about 1000 bucks. One of those will tell you exactly how many people are there.  Then again if you are going to open a door in a camper when you hear ringing you probably should be killed for being a dumb criminal.

 

After every new episode I have to listen to a bunch of my co-workers talk about how "Fucking awesome" and " Cutting edge" SOA is.... And my faith in humanity continues to die a small death.

What was this episode, soft core porn?

Writing a show as if it's a 14 year old boy's wet dream does not make you a daring and innovative writer.

It seems that every season there is all kinds of media coverage about (including EW cover stories) about how this show is getting better and better and the ratings are increasing regularly. But I don't understand because for me the show is getting dumber and dumber and more like a soap opera ever season

 

It was funny seeing Courtney Love showing up again. That said the best thing about her role was that for me it proved without a doubt that she did not kill Kurt Cobain. I mean she can't act at all, so there is no way I believe she could lie to police, or fake the crying she was doing at the vigil shortly after he died. 

 

Also speaking of Able and Gemma and the big reveal, I wonder if there is any way that Gemma would turn herself into the police, or rat out the club to save Jax from killing her? That would be an interesting ending, she goes into witness protection (having to live with what she did), Jax goes to jail (knowing what his mom did) and the kids go into foster care. 

[terrymct]

As for the teacher and child services investigator, I think they should be interested in why nobody noticed his arm bleeding when he arrived at school, and the freshness of the injury when he brought it to his teacher's attention.

 

 

Not to mention a bloody fork in his lunchbox.

[jrlr]

It's always been a soap opera - let's face it: Sutter is no Shakespeare - but now it seems like a cross between a video game and a cartoon to me.  I'm SO glad that Jax has finally been clued in about Tara's murder, this is the part I've been waiting for all season as we all slogged through the bloodbaths and the plot holes.

[Captanne]

I don't think Sutter is trying to be Shakespeare.  He's definitely written a version of Hamlet, though. *  That is clear.  Hundreds if not thousands of "versions" or "homages" have been written in the past 400 years.  This list is pretty comprehensive -- if you scroll down to the Tragedies and look at Hamlet, SoA is included.

 

I don't expect everyone who quotes F=ma to be a Newton.

 

*ETA, I'm not sure I agree that Chibs is Horatio.  I think Opie was Horatio.  Chibs is more Laertes, to me.  Also, I don't know that I would call Tara Ophelia.  I would call Wendy Ophelia because of her heroin addiction and continued penchant to need it.  (Heroin parallels to Ophelia's madness and dreaminess along with her ultimate -- spoiler alert! -- suicide.  Active heroin addicts don't tend to stay around very long.)  Although, it could legitimately be argued that Ophelia's suicide was the trigger for Hamlet to finally take action.  Wendy hasn't served that purpose as clearly as Tara has.

 

If Chibs holds a dying Jax in his arms and says anything approaching, 

 

Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
 

Horatio, Act V, scene ii

 

then I sit here, as God is my witness, corrected.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Captanne

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Do i think SOA is brilliant, No. Do i think it is better then alot of people give it credi for, yes. It is not subtle. It was never subtle. People who like their entertainment subtle will hate this. This is violent and at times painfully real. Too real sometimes. Do i want to see people fucking away pain? Do i want to see a child so confused he hurts himself to get away from a family member. All this is very real and i think Kurt Sutter is a good story teller if you like dark, vilolent and gritty stories.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Febgirl]

 

Do i think SOA is brilliant, No. Do i think it is better then alot of people give it credi for, yes. It is not subtle. It was never subtle. People who like their entertainment subtle will hate this.

This!  Last year, I was quite ill, and spent a lot of time in and out of the hospital and recovering.

 As anyone who's been in the hospital knows, the days/nights are long, and you can lose it.   I needed to get out of my head.  I didn't want anything to do with "pretty" and " romantic"  or "babies".   I and my Ipad plowed through all 7 seasons of  The Shield, and all 6 (at the time) of Sons of Anarchy. In some small way, those shows were very, very good to me when I needed them.

 Do I think Sons of Anarchy is high art? No.  Do I enjoy the soapy, pulpy drama and all of its ridiculousness? I sure do.

I'm in it for the last few episodes.  I certainly won't hold back with my snark, but when, out of left field, an episode like this last one, legitimately brought me to tears, I remember why I fell in love with this show in the first place.

[henripootel]

even I know that it in that kind of situation you stake out the house for at least a few hours before you hit it (thanks Michael Weston).

Ha - yep.  And the real kicker for me is that Jax's 'plan' would have immediately failed if anybody had done any kind of recon at all.  He had guys up on the roof, for god's sake - if Marks' guys had just circled around a bit, they'd have seen them up there.  Had they Michael Westoned the place and watched it for a while, they would have (no doubt) been treated to several instances where somebody jumped the gun and rushed out prematurely, or stepped outside to smoke a blunt.  Yet Jax's 'master plan' worked like Hannibal at Cannae.  Because ... reasons.  And none of his guys got a scratch, through the sheer power of scriptwriting.

Edited November 17, 2014 by henripootel

[Ohwell]

Also, Moses was told they were at a cabin.  When he and his guys came upon what was clearly a house, they should have been suspicious.

[Kel Varnsen]

Ha - yep.  And the real kicker for me is that Jax's 'plan' would have immediately failed if anybody had done any kind of recon at all.  He had guys up on the roof, for god's sake - if Marks' guys had just circled around a bit, they'd have seen them up there.  Had they Michael Westoned the place and watched it for a while, they would have (no doubt) been treated to several instances where somebody jumped the gun and rushed out prematurely, or stepped outside to smoke a blunt.  Yet Jax's 'master plan' worked like Hannibal at Cannae.  Because ... reasons.  And none of his guys got a scratch, through the sheer power of scriptwriting.

What makes it even stupider is once again we had SAMCRO guys just standing out in the open shooting without taking any kind of cover. And yet Moses and his Blackwater/Special Forces guys can't manage to hit a single SAMCRO member. 

 

Also, Moses was told they were at a cabin.  When he and his guys came upon what was clearly a house, they should have been suspicious.

These are guys (supposed combat veterans) who hear a cell phone go off in a camper and decide to open the door rather than just unloading into the camper. Those guys are lucky that Jax can't build a better bomb (or at least one with more shrapnel in it) I mean scooby doo could have figured out that this was a trap. In the end as much as I kind of like Rat and that Grim Bastards guy, it would have been kind of funny if, after they had given up the location Moses had shot them both.

[henripootel]

And yet Moses and his Blackwater/Special Forces guys can't manage to hit a single SAMCRO member.

To which I would add '... despite having machine guns and shooting at point-blank range.  And none of Jax's guys shot each other, despite being on opposite sides of the kill box.'  

 

In short, Jax's master plan required that his opponent act like an idiot.  Oh Sutter ...

Edited November 17, 2014 by henripootel

[Kel Varnsen]

In short, Jax's master plan required that his opponent act like an idiot.  Oh Sutter ...

Which always seems to happen. It seems that everytime Jax is about to be defeated he is saved because his opponent is either stupid or even more corrupt/evil or insane. I mean before Moses there was Toric, Stahl, Weston, and Pope.

[Captanne]

As far back as I can remember, SAMCRO has been impervious to bullets from these sorts of battle scenarios, though.  So, no surprise there.  I've come to expect it to be a bit cartoonish -- it's worked for years.  Why change now?

 

ETA:  I'm no Sutter-apologist.  I've enjoyed the show immensely and never missed an episode.  However, I'm no wide-eyed naif.  Sometimes my favourite shows suck.  So far, though, I've been pretty happy with SoA.  I think, if I had anything to complain about, I don't tend to really latch onto the intrigue between all the gangs.  I sometimes don't bother to keep them straight -- and that doesn't really matter because the plots almost always work out the same.  And that should matter.  The politics are so important to the biker world -- it should matter whether I can keep them straight or not.

 

Also, much as I love Tig and Venus, and the acceptance of Juice's African American heritage, for consistency's sake, those facts should be show-stoppers.  The gang is NOT full of nice, understanding people.  They have been established as bigots and racists -- that should stay consistent.

 

Those are small complaints, in my book, though.  Because I enjoy the show so much, I can overlook those things.  (Plus, I really love the idea that the "brotherhood" looks beyond which hole you stick your dick in.  So, I can overlook the inconsistency of them not minding Tig with Venus.)

Edited November 17, 2014 by Captanne

[Disraeli Ears]

Been binge watching early seasons this weekend (end of S1 to halfway through S3).

Yeah, this show has never been "cutting edge," "brilliant," or the "best show on teeeeveee!" as many fanboys like to claim. But it was fun, engaging, and had some really good actors (Sagal and Perlman, in particular). The first few seasons in particular had much more humor, which really made the plot holes in the drama easier to swallow (unlike this season - jeez).

I like The Walking Dead, too, and am quite willing to overlook MANY gaping logical holes (inconsistent zombie physiology in particular). But I still like it - it's still engaging, but I am also willing to admit it has flaws.

What was my point again? Oh, well - I guess I'm lamenting that this season is not the SoA of yore.

[Captanne]

Plus, I'm always a sucker for Shakespeare adaptations.

[La Tortuga]

Also, much as I love Tig and Venus, and the acceptance of Juice's African American heritage, for consistency's sake, those facts should be show-stoppers.  The gang is NOT full of nice, understanding people.  They have been established as bigots and racists -- that should stay consistent.

 

Those are small complaints, in my book, though.  Because I enjoy the show so much, I can overlook those things.  (Plus, I really love the idea that the "brotherhood" looks beyond which hole you stick your dick in.  So, I can overlook the inconsistency of them not minding Tig with Venus.)

 

I think, if Clay were still in charge, and the gang was still prospering financially, and the Sons were still in the position of having the luxury to turn down probates as they pleased for not conforming to expectations, the Tig & Venus thing wouldn't fly at all. But the club is in the midst of a brutal war and they don't have all the assets they once had (main supplier for the Irish gun trade, etc.), and with their people being killed off and Jax alienating the Indian Hills charter, the core group of SAMCRO can't really afford to start turning on each other over things that have nothing to do with business. SAMCRO is being forced to think progressively just to survive.

 

Plus, at this point almost all of them have been in prison, so most of them have probably had some kind of sex with a guy at some point.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

What was my point again? Oh, well - I guess I'm lamenting that this season is not the SoA of yore.

It suffers from a fair amount of final seasonitis. It is not as bad as say Dexter which from the start was just awful but its no love letter to the fans like Fringe or just plain Awesone like Breaking Bad

[Captanne]

In my world, it's unfair to compare anything on television to Breaking Bad.  I was late to that game and, by mistake, ended up watching an episode during one of the ubiquitous final season "catch up" marathons.  I binged the entire thing.

 

I'm old and I've never seen anything like that on television or even in theaters.  Breaking Bad is a quantum level all its own.

 

Personally, I would put SoA somewhere in the middle with American Horror Story.  At times amazing and at times utterly baffling.

I think, if Clay were still in charge, and the gang was still prospering financially, and the Sons were still in the position of having the luxury to turn down probates as they pleased for not conforming to expectations, the Tig & Venus thing wouldn't fly at all. But the club is in the midst of a brutal war and they don't have all the assets they once had (main supplier for the Irish gun trade, etc.), and with their people being killed off and Jax alienating the Indian Hills charter, the core group of SAMCRO can't really afford to start turning on each other over things that have nothing to do with business. SAMCRO is being forced to think progressively just to survive.

 

Plus, at this point almost all of them have been in prison, so most of them have probably had some kind of sex with a guy at some point.

 

 

Oh, ITA!!  That's why I read Juice with Marilyn Manson as more "resigned" than anything else.  He's not enjoying himself but I'm not sure he believes he's meant to.  That was proven to me by the time MM was reading love poetry while Juice was getting high.  MM is into it, while Juice is avoiding the reality.

 

My fave is that Jax thinks it's all good -- Juice's comeuppance for betraying the Club.

 

ETA:  Sorry for nattering on today.  I had a HUGE weekend at work -- culmination of several projects over the past year -- and took today and tomorrow off.  I've had a great time just surfing all day.  Quite the indulgence.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Captanne

[Turtle]

I imagine that Tig would get a lot of ribbing and flat-out ridicule for Venus, but I agree that, especially at this point in the club's life, they're not likely to throw him out or anything.  One, the core group is really small and they have a pretty intense bond, so I think they're less likely to cut off ties with him than they might have been in the past.  Two, they already know that Tig has some unusual sexual interests and experience, and that he has an attraction to Venus; Jax and Chibs (I think) have commented on it in what I thought was a head-shaking amused way, like "Oh, there goes Tig again..."  Three, the "old guard" is gone, and several of the guys seem to have slightly more open minds about stuff.  Slightly.  But who knows where Sutter is actually taking this.  Who knows where Sutter is taking ANY of this.  

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I think, if Clay were still in charge

 

 

If Clay was still in charge he would have killed Tara himself the moment there was even a Whiff of her turning rat.  Hell he would have killed both Tara and Jax a long time ago and convinced Gemma that they didn't need either of them now that they had Abel and Tommy.  I am actually surprised Gemma didn't kill Jax a long time ago.  

[missy jo]

Bless you Kel Varnsten for the Michael Weston shout-out! Weston could take out all of these buffoons, from every gang, in one fell swoop.

 

The most unbelievable moment of the show for me was, as always, the worst child actor ever. I don't know how the adult actors keep a straight face when they're in a scene with him. I've seen good child actors in other shows and movies - I actually watch out for it now just to reassure myself it's possible.

 

Perhaps an intelligent five-year-old could connect the dots in this saga (I doubt it, but just playing along), but not this nonverbal, developmentally-delayed zombie child.

 

However, I was impressed that Child Services is the sole authority to impact the Sons in the history of the show, unlike the actual law enforcement agencies.

 

The runner-up in silly plots for me was the take-down of the Marks/Moses gang, including all the stuff that has already been brought up by other posters. So ... does the entire organization fit into a few SUVs? Is there no further heir with Marks in jail and Moses dead? That's just it, then? Umkay.

[Kel Varnsen]

Perhaps an intelligent five-year-old could connect the dots in this saga (I doubt it, but just playing along), but not this nonverbal, developmentally-delayed zombie child.

 

However, I was impressed that Child Services is the sole authority to impact the Sons in the history of the show, unlike the actual law enforcement agencies.

I am not sure that Able could come up with the plan for what happens. But I think he could figure out that if I showed that he was hurt and said grandma did it she would get in trouble. The stuff that happened after that I don't think he planned. And I am not even convinced that the school people believed him, because they would have to be stupid if they did, just that they realized something fucked up is going on so they better monitor it. 

 

Yea law enforcement has checked out with trying to arrest the sons a long time ago. I mean the feds have pretty much given up on them since Potter and that was season 4. Even the local police I think have stopped caring (which makes no sense after the school shooting, the ice cream shop, roosevelt's death and the brothel shooting). All it would take is one traffic stop and they could put Jax in jail, because the dude is always carrying a gun (and I am pretty sure he is on parole).

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kel Varnsen

[Darknight]

Why does it matter is Juice is half black? Are they racist?

[Captanne]

Yes, they are.  At least they were depicted as such for several seasons.  It's the reason Juice attempted suicide the first time and it drove a lot of the Juice plot line (hiding his heritage from the Club.)

 

 

Season Four  http://sonsofanarchy.wikia.com/wiki/Juice_Ortiz

 

 

 

Juice is targeted by AUSA Potter and Sheriff Roosevelt as a potential weak link in the club, as they discover his father is African-American, making Juice half-black instead of Puerto Rican as he claimed. Roosevelt confronts Juice with this fact, pointing out that if this became common knowledge Juice would be expelled from SAMCRO. Because of this fear, Juice begins to work with Roosevelt. Roosevelt tells Juice that he wants a sample of the cocaine that SAMCRO is trafficking so he can begin to build his case.

 

[snip]

 

 

 

Clay meets with Juice and gives him a "Men of Mayhem" patch and tells Juice that he was impressed with the way he dealt with the Russians and Mayans. Feeling guilty and realizing there is no way out of his predicament, Juice disappears for the remainder of the episode, and later attempts suicide by hanging himself from a tree. He survives the attempt due to the tree branch breaking and saving his life.

Juice continues to struggle with his devotion to the club and the predicament he is in with his father's heritage. After suffering another conflict Juice finally admits to Chibs that his father is black before being imprisoned once again.

 

 

ETA:  After reading this wiki page, did anyone remember that Juicey was originally brought in as the group's "hacker"?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Yeah, me neither.  :-(

 

I've always liked Juice and, especially, his relationship with Chibs.  Aww.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Captanne

[Kel Varnsen]

ETA:  After reading this wiki page, did anyone remember that Juicey was originally brought in as the group's "hacker"?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Yeah, me neither.  :-(

I remember that. He was like there intelligence officer or something. 

[Ohwell]

He was like there intelligence officer or something.

Heh, that's funny, really funny, because it doesn't take much intelligence to become an intelligence officer with this bunch of meatheads. 

[La Tortuga]

Juice was the intelligence officer??? And he couldn't figure out how to get to Mexico without asking the Mayans for help first?

[Disraeli Ears]

Watching the old episodes, I've been so amused by Juice's computer prowess!

Good thing that the iPad was already on, when they got the box with Bobby's eye! Otherwise Jax might have been all "Why did Marks send us this weird etch-a-sketch?"

And season one Jax would have laughed.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Disraeli Ears

[Captanne]

Strange as it may seem, Juice is one of my favourite characters and has been since he was introduced.  I think it's because I really like the actor.  Plus, I love the relationship he had with Chibs.  Sigh.  (Chibs saying, "Juice-eh" and cupping his neck was so brotherly.  I've always felt that was so loving and warm -- which struck me as slightly out of character for Chibs.  It made me warm up to him and to Juice.  Especially after Chibs was the one to find him post-suicide-attempt.  There was genuine care in Chibs that we'd never really seen before.)

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Juice was the intelligence officer??? And he couldn't figure out how to get to Mexico without asking the Mayans for help first?

Well getting to Mexico and into Mexico are very different things especially when you have a criminal record. Asking a Mexican biker gang to sneak you in was a fairly.smart move considering how they probably go in and out alot..

Juice is not someone who can walk through a border crossing at will.

Plus i don't think he actually wanted to go anyway. He wanted to get caught.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Disraeli Ears]

Strange as it may seem, Juice is one of my favourite characters and has been since he was introduced.  I think it's because I really like the actor.  Plus, I love the relationship he had with Chibs.  Sigh.  (Chibs saying, "Juice-eh" and cupping his neck was so brotherly.  I've always felt that was so loving and warm -- which struck me as slightly out of character for Chibs.  It made me warm up to him and to Juice.  Especially after Chibs was the one to find him post-suicide-attempt.  There was genuine care in Chibs that we'd never really seen before.)

I agree: I've always had a soft spot for Juice. A couple of times I have been really mad at him (like at the end of last season when he killed Roosevelt to protect Gemma), but - dang it - I just can't stay mad at him. Probably because I adore Theo Rossi. He is a runner and a dog lover (like me), plus he has that smile...not to mention a killer set of buns.

[Darknight]

Yes, they are. At least they were depicted as such for several seasons. It's the reason Juice attempted suicide the first time and it drove a lot of the Juice plot line (hiding his heritage from the Club.)

Season Four http://sonsofanarchy.wikia.com/wiki/Juice_Ortiz

[snip]

ETA: After reading this wiki page, did anyone remember that Juicey was originally brought in as the group's "hacker"? Anyone? Bueller? Yeah, me neither. :-(

I've always liked Juice and, especially, his relationship with Chibs. Aww.

But doesn't SOA have relations with the blacks?

[Captanne]

They do now.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Captanne

[leisawoo]

Yeah but remember their gun suppliers, the Irish, were NOT willing to deal with them cuz they hate blacks. I guess Jax is the king of race relations, and I laughed my ass off while typing this.

I know an Irish dude and this racism is pretty common among the Irish whites. Ridiculous and so "common".;)

[NoWillToResist]

I swear Althea has to be the most ridiculous "foe" that SAMCRO has had in all of the seasons. She is even worse than Unser IMO. It is just inconceivable that she would get intimately involved with the very outlaws causing chaos in the town that she is supposed to be protecting. She comes across as a very needy unhinged woman because of some "bad boy" dick. She just has to be better than this... I truly hope that she has some master plan in place to take them down.

 

Patterson said that she came highly recommended, so I think Althea is (A) playing Chibs, (B) off her meds, or ( C) a completely useless officer of the law and whoever recommended her so highly did so just to get her the fuck out of their district.

 

 

Were all those sex scenes in the beginning necessary? I had a hard time telling who half the people were and I don't really care about any of these relationships. And the way the shot switched from Jax and his Tara replacement hooker to Gemma and Nero was creepy as fuck. 

 

I may be crazy but I don't think I was supposed to find those sex scenes hot. Jax is banging a poor man's Tara (and then crying), Nero is fucking Gemma and she looks like she would rather be anywhere else, Happy is fucking NAILING some random chick on the hood of a car (I think), Juice is being prison raped, and Rat is cheating on the woman he claims to love. The Venus/Tig scene at least appeared to be mutually satisfying but was then immediately undercut by the aftermath. Also, I gotta say...what exactly was happening under the sheets with those two anyway? I was looking at how their limbs and torsos were arranged and...I just don't get it?  And while Charlie Hunnam's butt was very picturesque, he was just rubbing his dick on the girl's stomach at best, right? Because his ass was so high up in the air (all the better to frame it in the shot) and her body was flat on that bed, that there was no way his dick was anywhere near her pleasure zones, IMO.

 

Were we supposed to believe that the ambush on Marks' guys was set in motion in advance, and that the pinching of TO and Rat was anticipated and planned? That ... defies belief.

 

I was annoyed that the Sons came out on top of that. I really just want the Sons to fail at everything because they fucking deserve to. They have backstabbed, double and triple crossed their allies, made and broken alliances, lied and murdered anyone they want, but they get to beat Marks' crew because they were big meanies who killed Bobby. Fuck off.

 

It bugs the fuck out of me that Jax can wink at Wendy all "We were married but decided to just be friends" and Wendy can go along with that when he shot her up. Like, has he even apologized? Not that there's enough sorry in the world to excuse that, but ...

 

 

It bothers me too but I think Wendy knows that the only way she gets to be around her son is if she plays it nice with Jax. Hell, she wants the kids clear of the Sons' nonsense but she has legal right to take them anywhere. Hopefully, she can hang in there, survive them all and take the kids and Nero to the farm. She and Nero are the only ones who have tried to do better and are focused on what's best for those kids, rather than their own selfish needs/wants.

 

But a 5-year-old (driven to darkness by events he can't possibly know about or understand) conceives and executes a plan that convinces not just his easily-fooled father, but actual professionals that his grandmother abused him.  Before his mom dressed him and sent him to school.  With wounds that were obviously still fresh and bleeding.  Sorry Sutter, Tarrare himself couldn't swallow that.  

 

I'm officially calling bullshit, and in the context of this season, that's saying something.  

 

Well, even if the kid harmed himself (which would be pretty self-evident), that alone is troubling enough to warrant attention by Child Services, IMO. Throw in that he blames Grandma for it and I'd be asking why and want to know more about that fucked up kid's home life.

 

Also, Moses was told they were at a cabin.  When he and his guys came upon what was clearly a house, they should have been suspicious.

 

Yeah, the minute they rolled up, I was all "Cabin? I do not think that place fits that description at all." Am I supposed to think that Moses and his band of merry men are so affluent that a house with its own outbuildings would qualify as a cabin to them?

 

I agree that Jax thought Wendy deserved to have Abel know who she is and I get that he thought it might help the kid a bit, but I do wish he'd maybe consulted with a child therapist or something because I couldn't help but think that this would be the last thing that you should dumping on the kid right now. However, it all led to the wonderful scene of Abel dropping a dime on Gemma, so I will let it pass. Also, I thought Drea de Matteo did a wonderful job in that scene. I actually teared up!

[nicepebbles]

The opening montage was a WTF moment for me. It seemed out of place, too long and why should we care about certain "couples" getting it on? The only bright spot was Jax and Winsome for reasons that have already been stated.

 

There better be some explanation for Rat and Rando Diosa worker. 

 

I'm questioning why Tig and Venus now. I have a bad feeling. Either I wasn't paying much attention or something but I didn't warm and fuzzies watching Tig and Venus love declaration scene. Maybe because I don't get why now and why him? As a lot of other people, I do love those two together. If only Tig was Tig and involved in such mayhem.

 

I can't believe August Marks hasn't come out on top! Utterly ridiculous! I do not buy for a second that Jax and Co was able to outsmart Marks' crew. It just doesn't make sense. I know Sutter and Co doesn't really expect us to root for Jax and Co over Marks considering: (1) they are equal in there crimes and (2) Marks' advice to Jax to take a seat and breath before getting revenge made a hell of a lot of sense. Nor do I believe the Chinese hasn't brought the full force of China down upon SAMCRO. Just no!

 

Nor do I understand the Grim Basterd's love for Jax and Co. I recognize that I need a flowchart to keep the gangs straight, alliances, plans, secrets and lies, and what have you straight so perhaps I missed something.

 

I can believe Abel wanted to hurt himself. Why now and not right after he overheard Gemma? Plot device anyone? So I can believe he brought a fork to school to hurt himself after all the crap he's been through and heart. After Treacher Love said what she said to him, I can see him thinking I was going to hurt myself anyway, now if I say Grandma did it, she'll get in trouble and she should because she killed mommy. After the most basic questions are asked (When did Gemma do it? Why was the wound fresh? etc...) and answered, CPS will know she didn't. Those can wait. The important thing is to get Able away from Gemma in case what he said is true.

 

Yeah, Abel for telling Jax! About time. I wasn't sure how Abel knowing was going to play out. I didn't have high hopes. I can live with this way.