S01.E13: What Happened to Frederick

[Zuleikha]

(I'm watching Once Upon a Time for the first time and got permission to open threads for old episodes as I watch them. I am unspoiled for the events of S1, so if you feel like joining in with my newbie observations, please don't spoil me)

 

I love Abigail and Katherine. I hate David. Does the show want me to hate David? Is there a David twist coming? Aren't I supposed to be rooting for Snow and Charming? 

 

I've been trying to wank the things I like least about David as curse related, but watching this episode made me realize I'm not the hugest Charming fan either. I don't know what the writers were thinking with having him interrogate Abigail about why she didn't want to marry him instead of just being grateful that she was giving him an out. Maybe the actor delivered the lines poorly and the writers intended him to be more in happy shock and less like he couldn't believe she wasn't falling at his feet.

 

But I also didn't like the way he fled the marriage without even believing Snow loved him when so much rode on the marriage. I know he didn't ask for any of it, but the suffering of peasants, his mother's life, Abigail's pride... all of that depended on him going through with it. If he had at least talked to Abigail privately to see what she thought about the marriage, I could have respected him more. I also give King George a pass on some of his a-holeness because, while it's easy to forget, King George is secretly grieving for his son while every day dealing with a lookalike and trying to find a way to improve people's condition. It's understandable that George is jerky with Charming... it must be very painful for George to deal with him. To me, heroism is more like Belle--sacrificing her own life and interests to protect her people. Charming may have slain a dragon, but I don't find him heroic when he's willing to let other people suffer just so he can avoid an arranged marriage. It's the same selfishness I see in David being unwilling to make an actual choice between Katherine and Mary Margaret.

 

I've also realized that I'm having a tough time with the basic premise in that Storybrooke seems so much more real to me than the Enchanted Forest. I am VERY Team Regina (even after Graham), and I think it's because I don't really believe that the Enchanted Forest characters have free will or any moral culpability for their actions. The only way I can swallow Charming's existence as the hidden twin brother, raised as a farmer, yet super special with a sword (despite no formal training) and the first man to see through the siren, is to take that as a fairy tale conceit. But then I can't take it as a real. They're just fairy tale characters doing what they're written to do, even if that varies a little from the stories as we've read them. To me, it feels like Regina gave them all a fresh chance to be real when she moved them to Storybrooke (albeit accidentally since she intended to freeze them in time and the fresh chance only became meaningful when Emma entered Storybrooke), and their lives, in general, just seem so much better to me (still! I know some of you were trying to convince me otherwise in The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, but more episodes down the line and the Enchanted Forest still sucks!)

 

Finally, I am so ready for Emma to freaking know about the curse. I don't understand the writer's decision to keep her in the dark. It just makes her and Henry look bad for how they treat Regina, whose known actions are all fairly minor.

[KAOS Agent]

You're supposed to hate David. Not so much Charming, but yeah David Nolan is a huge jackass. I hated David at the time and could not figure out why the hell Mary Margaret would even be interested, destined true loves or not. Guys who cheat on their wives and continue to lead the other woman on are terrible people. I remember even Josh Dallas called David Nolan a tool and a douchebag. It's nice that the writers maintained how gross, dishonorable and unacceptable his actions are - even though we knew David & Snow were actually married and true loves.

 

Ahh the much maligned King George. The only person on this show who ever cares about the peasants. Will no one think of the peasants? He's a horrible, horrible person, but at least he seems to care about the people he rules.

 

 

To me, it feels like Regina gave them all a fresh chance to be real when she moved them to Storybrooke (albeit accidentally since she intended to freeze them in time and the fresh chance only became meaningful when Emma entered Storybrooke), and their lives, in general, just seem so much better to me

 

I'm sure Nicholas and Ava loved living alone on the streets of Storybrooke for 30 years. Good times. And I'm sure that lonely, unloved Mary Margaret is super happy living in her hovel rather than in a castle with her loving husband and baby girl. Or that Geppetto is ecstatic living alone without his son. And that Grumpy is super excited to be a shiftless drunk who ends up in the drunk tank nightly. And that Kathryn & David are good with believing they are unhappily married to each other rather than with their respective partners. I get that these people have sad stories in their pasts, but these are portrayed as mistakes that they tried to fix. Because they occurred in the Enchanted Forest, things there seem dire, but the truth is that if these people faced the same circumstances in this world, they would suffer too. It would just work out in a more "real" way. I will also agree that enjoying modern technology is a huge plus if you consider the suffering of medieval times, but the core of this show is supposed to be about love and hope and that if you lose that, you cannot be happy. The curse removed both from everyone and that's why it's so horrible. Money/technology/whatever can't buy you love and all that. 

[regularlyleaded]

Finally, I am so ready for Emma to freaking know about the curse. I don't understand the writer's decision to keep her in the dark. It just makes her and Henry look bad for how they treat Regina, whose known actions are all fairly minor.

I'm assuming that you're referring Regina's "fairly minor" bad actions as far as they are known to Emma and Henry only (up to this episode)? (Because Regina's crimes that are known to the audience, and not just Emma and Henry, are bad. I mean, they include murder, so...) If so, I don't know that I would call Regina's actions as "fairly minor".

 

At this point, Regina has shown herself to be a controlling, conniving, vindictive (and unloving IMO) woman. Which yes, not exactly something you can arrest a person for, but  in Emma's eyes (and some of us in the audience) Regina has committed an egregious transgression by purposely constructing a situation in which Henry would get hurt just so Regina could hurt Emma. Regina arranged it (episode 2 "The Thing You Love Most") so that Henry would overhear Emma calling him "crazy" so that Henry would abandon his pursuit of Emma's assistance to break Regina's curse. Regina used a child like a weapon with out any thought to what it would do to him our how he would feel just so she could get what she wanted. As a matter of fact, Regina gloated when Emma accused her of using Henry so callously. That doesn't seem "fairly minor" to me.

 

And moreover, Henry firmly believed that he was right, that the curse was real (and he is right), but Regina made him think he was crazy even though she knew it was true. She put that child in therapy and threatened his therapist, Archie, to rip those "delusions" from his head, or else. I'm sorry, but that's flat out mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. Making someone think they are crazy is abuse, so I don't think what Regina has done, as far as what Emma and Henry know right now, should be labeled as only "fairly minor". (naturally, YMMV)

Edited November 5, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Dani-Ellie]

To me, it feels like Regina gave them all a fresh chance to be real when she moved them to Storybrooke (albeit accidentally since she intended to freeze them in time and the fresh chance only became meaningful when Emma entered Storybrooke), and their lives, in general, just seem so much better to me (still! I know some of you were trying to convince me otherwise in The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, but more episodes down the line and the Enchanted Forest still sucks!)

 

Except to me that "fresh chance" was no more real than you're seeing their Enchanted Forest actions as. The people in Storybrooke had no free will, either. They were placed in these circumstances where what made them happiest was torn from them and there was nothing they could do to get them back. They had no way of escaping town to better themselves, since the curse kept them all trapped in town. And what's worse was they had no idea what pieces of themselves were missing. They were all unhappy but had no idea why and had no means to attain it even if they did.

 

What you're seeing in the show now is the effect of Emma being in town. People are beginning to wake up and realize that something's missing in their lives and beginning to assert themselves in an effort to attain it. That wasn't possible until Emma decided to stay and the clock started moving again. Before that for all of these people, it was 28 years of constant misery.

 

No, it wasn't fire and brimstone and there were no ogres or monsters but the evil the curse wrought was more insidious than that. It took what made these people who they are, ripped it from them, and then locked it away so they could never find it again. Emotional health and well-being were tossed out the window and there was nothing any of them could do to make themselves emotionally happy and healthy until the savior arrived.

 

I can't give Regina a pass on casting the curse, even if it maybe led to something better for some of these people, because the curse is what she wanted. She didn't want it to be broken. She wanted the misery they were all living under prior to Emma's arrival. Her intention wasn't to better these people, her intention was to make them suffer for all eternity.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's be sure to remember not to spoil future events in here; please use spoiler tags when referring to events that happen after this episode to allow new viewers to choose to be spoiled.

 

Also, the same rules apply in here that apply in other topics; repetitive, argumentative, and uncivil posts will be deleted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of characters/stories/story arcs, and just because they don't agree with you does not mean they're wrong. Report posts that are attacks on other posters, and do not engage in topic.

 

Thank you.

[formerlyfreedom]

With their love for each other growing stronger, David finally agrees to tell Kathryn about his relationship with Mary Margaret and put an end to his loveless marriage. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, while runaway groom Prince Charming searches for Snow White, he agrees to aid Abigail on a dangerous mission to recover something precious that was lost to her.

 

[KingOfHearts]

The highlight of this episode to me was finding out that Kathryn was cooler than expected. In a strange way, it gave me a sigh of relief that she had no intention of marrying Charming, but rather she was a pawn as much as he was. (Both in the past and the present.) 

 

Regina burning the letter at the end made me want to throw at the TV. Dang, she's mean!

 

I wish we could have seen Frederick again. What happened to...?

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Yeah, the idea behind this episode was really good--Abigail rapidly became so awesome after this--but the dialogue was just TERRIBLE on all fronts. I think my favorite groanworthy line was when Charming said "Well, none of them had my fearless bravery" or something like that. I honestly don't know how Josh Dallas got it out with a straight face, or how Anastasia Griffith didn't crack up when he said it.

[Zuleikha]

I'm assuming that you're referring Regina's "fairly minor" bad actions as far as they are known to Emma and Henry only (up to this episode)?

 

Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to remember exactly what I know vs. Emma/Henry, but if I'm remembering right, they only know that she's socially manipulative and willing to do short term hurts of Henry for a perceived larger good. Emma doesn't think Regina's animosity has anything to do with Henry's curse belief (because Emma doesn't believe in it) but rather that Regina is intimidated and scared of Henry loving Emma more. Like if this show suddenly decided to get rid of the fairy tale elements, Emma/Regina scenes and interactions could basically be preserved as is, and we'd just have a soapy drama about the jealous struggle between an adoptive mother and the suddenly re-appearing biological mother. So I feel the extent of Emma's hatred towards Regina isn't justified with what Emma knows, and for me, this aspect of the show would have worked better if Emma knew about the curse earlier and really knew who/what she's up against. It's hard for me to invest in Emma as a character when it's almost like she's a character from a different show. 

 

I think it's why I'm more drawn in by Regina/Mr. Gold scenes or even scenes with the Stranger. When everyone involved knows what's up, the tension is higher for me and the stakes are more interesting. I like the concept of Emma, and I like her scenes with Mary Margaret, but not the way the writers have developed her plot.

 

I can't give Regina a pass on casting the curse, even if it maybe led to something better for some of these people, because the curse is what she wanted.

 

I don't really either. I fully acknowledge that Regina is a horrible, evil person. I just have a hard time emotionally reacting to her as the Evil Queen I know she is instead of as an insecure, jealous adoptive mother who is struggling to preserve her relationship with her son and who has the possibility of becoming a good person if she can find friends, be less lonely, and move past her obsession with other people's happiness. It's like, Regina just get a life coach and tape the mantra above your mirror to stop comparing your insides with everyone else's outsides (and no more crushing people's hearts!). 

 

My thoughts on the curse and the fresh chance is more trying to figure out what I'm rooting for. I do want the characters to get their memories back and for the curse to be fully undone, but I don't want them to go back to the Enchanted Forest. I want them to stay in Storybrooke, where there's indoor plumbing and no ogres, trolls, or evil imps. Maybe they can send Mr. Gold (and Regina *sigh*) back to the Enchanted Forest.

[regularlyleaded]

Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to remember exactly what I know vs. Emma/Henry, but if I'm remembering right, they only know that she's socially manipulative and willing to do short term hurts of Henry for a perceived larger good. Emma doesn't think Regina's animosity has anything to do with Henry's curse belief (because Emma doesn't believe in it) but rather that Regina is intimidated and scared of Henry loving Emma more. Like if this show suddenly decided to get rid of the fairy tale elements, Emma/Regina scenes and interactions could basically be preserved as is, and we'd just have a soapy drama about the jealous struggle between an adoptive mother and the suddenly re-appearing biological mother. So I feel the extent of Emma's hatred towards Regina isn't justified with what Emma knows, and for me, this aspect of the show would have worked better if Emma knew about the curse earlier and really knew who/what she's up against.

I see what you're saying. I think for me at this point in season 1, I felt that they had shed enough light on Emma's past to inform why whenever Regina threw a punch at her, Emma didn't turn the other cheek and instead fought back against Regina (And good for Emma, I say. Chainsaw Emma is my hero!) And for the record, IMO, Emma's hatred for Regina is completely justified.

 

At this point we know that Emma grew up an orphan, shuffled from foster home to foster home, and never had anyone to call family, no one that looked out for her let alone loved her. She grew up very much alone and unwanted. So when Emma gave up Henry for adoption, it was so that Henry could avoid her fate and instead find a good home, one that she felt she couldn't provide since she was only a teenager in juvenile detention and gave birth to Henry in prison. Emma wanted to give Henry his best chance at life and that meant she hoped that he would be adopted by a loving family that wanted him and would raise him in a loving and caring home like every child deserves. But lo and behold, with Regina Emma is confronted with almost the total opposite of everything she had hoped for Henry. 

 

Yes, Henry is fed, clothed and has a roof over his head, but Henry is distinctly troubled and clearly unhappy. And not in the typical little kid throwing a fit kind of unhappy, but unhappy and disturbed to the point that he tracked down his birth mother to "save" him and the town he lives in from his evil mom. And while Emma gave Regina the benefit of the doubt in the beginning (actually early on Emma even defends Regina's "tough love" attitude to Henry), Regina continually shows that she's an unscrupulous, conniving, sinister woman and that Henry is living in an unhealthy environment with this ruthless woman.

 

Emma was going to leave town after she brought Henry back to Storybrooke, but the reason Emma decides to stay is because when she asks Regina (see: Pilot Episode) if she (Regina) loves Henry and Regina replies "Yes", Emma knows it's a lie. It set off Emma's "superpower" and she knew Regina was full of crap right then and there. And so Emma stayed because she realized that there was more to Henry's situation than just Henry not getting along with Regina. As time goes on and as Regina escalates things, Emma realizes that Henry really is in a bad situation. And that for Emma is like salt in the wounds because her sacrifice of giving up Henry has apparently been for not because here she is looking at her son who is sincerely unhappy, apparently unloved, and being used by a conniving, power hungry bitch to get what she wants and not because it's "best for Henry". So for Emma (and for me as a viewer) her enmity with Regina is completely justified. Especially when at every turn, when Emma attempts to be reasonable and hold out an olive branch to Regina, Regina merely ups her scheming and bitchery.

 

As far as I recall at this point in the season, Regina is her own worst enemy, because had she played it cool and had she been reasonable and cordial with Emma, Emma would've left town and Regina's precious curse would not be in danger. Had Regina found it within herself to control the raging, crazy-pants bitch that she is, she wouldn't be sitting here conniving and scheming, illegally abusing her power, all in an insane effort to drive Emma out of town/put an end to Emma's life permanently.

 

ETA:

If I recall, Emma doesn't think that Regina is only acting this way because Regina is jealous of Emma or worried that Henry will want Emma over Regina. Emma knows that Henry has been struggling against Regina for quite some time and long before Henry began looking for Emma. Archie's therapy session records go back further than when Henry discovered Emma so Emma isn't thinking this is about her (or Regina's jealousy of her). Henry only started looking for his birth mother and went to Boston to bring Emma to Storybrooke as a solution to his problems, so Emma doesn't really have reason to think that this is solely about her. Yes, clearly Regina is gunning for her, this has not escaped Emma, but at this point enough things have happened that Emma realizes that Regina herself has problems that have nothing to do with Emma herself, and those problems are affecting Henry. 

 

they only know that she's socially manipulative and willing to do short term hurts of Henry for a perceived larger good.

When Regina uses Henry to hurt Emma there is no perceived larger good. Regina sets Henry up in a position to be hurt not to save someone's life or some sort of altruistic poppycock. Regina does it so she can get what she wants, pure and simple. Regina wants Emma gone and she's willing to hurt Henry to achieve that goal. (Also, I think the argument of whether it's a short term hurt or not is irrelevant because it's cruel either way) There's no altruism on Regina's part and neither Henry or Emma are deluded into believing there is. Emma calls Regina on how she was wiling to use Henry just to get at her and Regina doesn't deny it. "Exactly what kind of mother does that?", is what Emma is thinking at this point. I don't think you can downplay how disgusting and disconerting Emma finds Regina's behavior towards Henry. Especially considering Emma's own history where she herself has been used before as a means to an end by people (see: True North). Again, from this perspective I can totally understand Emma's loathing of Regina. Regina is showing herself to be a piss poor example of motherhood and a dangerous one at that. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[Shanna Marie]

I'm inclined to cut David some slack because his marriage to Kathryn is 100 percent fake and created by Regina. He was in a coma during the entire curse, so he never actually lived as Kathryn's husband, unlike the rest of the town where their background memories may be fake, but they did actually live those lives for 28 years, so their lives and their relationships are at least partially real, even if they're based on falsehoods. David suddenly had new, fake memories implanted after the curse had already weakened, and so it makes sense that they would feel less real to him than the genuine feelings he had for his actual wife. He had superficial fake memories telling him he was married to Kathryn, but everything else in him was steering him toward the truth.

 

I think that's one of the cruelest non-murder things Regina did during the curse, and it hurt all of them, including Kathryn, who was an innocent bystander.

[daxx]

Absolutely, it is so hard to watch Charming in the past change into David Nolan in the present. Yes, Regina was terrible.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Like if this show suddenly decided to get rid of the fairy tale elements, Emma/Regina scenes and interactions could basically be preserved as is, and we'd just have a soapy drama about the jealous struggle between an adoptive mother and the suddenly re-appearing biological mother. So I feel the extent of Emma's hatred towards Regina isn't justified with what Emma knows, and for me, this aspect of the show would have worked better if Emma knew about the curse earlier and really knew who/what she's up against.

 

The biggest problem this show has is that it depends on the fairybacks to help tell their stories, but their lead character does not have a fairy tale past. So in the past, we see what makes Snow White how she is, we see what made Regina the way she is and so on. We see them struggle with things, we see them cry, we see their pain and we sympathize. Then we have Emma, who has an incredibly traumatic past, but it's a real world past and we don't see it. All we get is the occasional line telling us about her past. The audience is just supposed to understand that Emma's struggles to figure out how to help Henry all come out of her past without having explicitly seen how that past is informing her current actions.

 

She never had a mother. She doesn't know how that's supposed to work, but she sees what Regina has done to Henry and doesn't like it. At the same time, she repeatedly tells Henry that his mother is trying and that he needs to give her a chance. Emma suffers from extremely low self esteem. She feels unlovable, incapable of being a mother and doesn't really even know how to react to Henry (watch her inability to accept a hug from him in "The Thing You Love the Most"). She doesn't want him for herself. She just wants him to be happy. 

 

She thinks the curse idea is insane, but instead of telling him so as Regina has done, Emma tries a new method by humoring him and working out ways for him to discover on his own that it's all a fantasy. Since the curse is actually fact, her attempts here fail, but it was a good plan. She isn't trying to undermine his relationship, she's actually trying to get him to believe all by himself that his adoptive mother isn't the Evil Queen. She is putting Henry's needs first and is trying her best to repair his relationship with Regina. Of course, Regina, Rumpel and even Henry himself get in the way of this through their manipulations. It's also clear that Henry didn't go looking for Emma because he wanted her to be his mother, he went looking for the Saviour. Watch their interactions in the Pilot episode and you'll see that neither looked at each other and was particularly interested in a mother/son relationship. It wasn't some happy mother/son meeting with hugs and kisses, it was Henry manipulating Emma into doing what he wanted.

 

In terms of Emma's belief in the curse, yes it is incredibly frustrating that she just won't believe. However, if you try to understand Emma (and again, this is where the show's failure to show us Emma's past instead of tell us about it is an issue), you can see that there is a major emotional roadblock. If she gives in and truly believes in it, then everything she's ever thought about herself and her life is a lie. And not only that, she's responsible for fixing it and saving an entire kingdom. That's a huge load for someone like Emma to take on and she can't handle it. So even when things are super strange and unexplainable, Emma's immediate response is to deny, deny, deny. As long as it's not true, she doesn't have to deal with crazy ideas like her being the Saviour.

[KingOfHearts]

What a wonderful way to describe S1 Emma, KAOS Agent! I love the idea of Emma denying the curse out of her own fear of responsibility as opposed to its level of craziness. You can't tell me her spidey senses didn't see that something was off here.

[stealinghome]

I think they get at this

in 1x20, when Augustocchio tells Emma that she's the Savior and she's like "then we're all screwed" and her immediate response is to take Henry and run. But even there it's not made super explicit.

 

Overall, however, I agree that Emma's belief trajectory is one of the problems S1 had. Her level of belief/non-belief wasn't linear, it was all over the place depending on what the plot needed, and they didn't do a great job of delving into/explaining via character why this was the case. I don't think we needed Emma flashbacks, but we DID need (imo) a somewhat more linear belief trajectory and a better explanation in moments like 'Hat Trick,' when something was clearly up, as to why Emma would reject the curse so stridently.

Edited November 9, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think we needed Emma flashbacks, but we DID need (imo) a somewhat more linear belief trajectory and a better explanation in moments like 'Hat Trick,' when something was clearly up, as to why Emma would reject the curse so stridently.

Replying in Emma thread.

[Shanna Marie]

Okay, now that I'm in the right thread ...

If someone asked me to name favorite episodes, this one probably wouldn't be top of mind, but it's a really good episode. I hadn't paid attention to who the writer was before and was a little surprised to see that it was David Goodman. I thought I generally liked his episodes because he writes good Hook, but I guess I like his style, overall.

The thing that really struck me this time through was that this seems to be the most human and natural most of the characters ever are. They get to react to things and feel like real people, and the actors rise to the occasion, doing some really nice work. There's a whole bit in the "woulda coulda shoulda" thread about how the series would have changed if the characters had been allowed to react naturally to events, and this episode has that. They aren't over-the-top in a cartoonish way, but they also aren't ignoring things that any normal person would react to. The episode seems more built around the characters rather than the characters being puppets playing out the plot.

I've been griping through the whole rewatch about Regina not even trying to win Henry over, like just about any parent feeling competitive over a child might, and here she finally does what most parents in her shoes would do and buys him the kind of toy that it seems like she'd previously denied him. Yeah, she also has the ulterior motive of wanting to distance him from the storybook, but that makes it even more believable. This also may be the one time in history when a parent actually encourages a child to play videogames rather than read a book.

Kathryn, David, and Mary Margaret all have such realistic reactions to their situation. Remove the fairy tale stuff, and it still works as human drama. The conversations between Emma and Mary Margaret are lovely, particularly the scene at the end when Emma lies down next to Mary Margaret in silent comfort. Even Regina seems more like a real person and less of a cartoon villain. August is still annoyingly pretentious, but in a realistic way. I've known way too many guys just like that, and Emma reacts to him the way people really might.

On the fairy tale side, Abigail turning out not to be a bitch, after all, is one of my favorite twists in the series, and her flashback outfit may be one of my favorite costumes. The hat is just divine. I have a friend who makes hats, and I'll have to see if she could pull off that one because I need it.

However, they really must have forgotten that it was Valentine's Day not too long ago, or else the Leaf Lady ran amok. Given the pileup of leaves on Emma's car, they have to have been placed there, particularly to draw attention to the box with the book. You wouldn't still have piles of autumn leaves in the streets in Maine in late February/early March, would you?

[daxx]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

On the fairy tale side, Abigail turning out not to be a bitch, after all, is one of my favorite twists in the series,

Yes, this. I was so happy to have her not end up being a bitch because that’s such a worn out trope. This twist didn’t retcon anything either.

[andromeda331]

I love that twist too. It was a great idea. I ended up really liking Abigail. I wish we had seen more of her. She was really cool. I liked the Charming helped her. In doing so it inspired him not to give up. This episode had a lot of realistic reactions. It was really nice to see.  I really liked Emma laying on the bed beside Mary Margaret. It was a really good scene.

[daxx]

I’m tempted to make an excel table listing all the writers and writing teams and the episodes they wrote to see if there is a pattern. Goodman is excellent, I know that Jane is hit and miss and there were at least a couple that I couldn’t stand, primarily A&E excepting a very few eps.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, daxx said:

I’m tempted to make an excel table listing all the writers and writing teams and the episodes they wrote to see if there is a pattern. Goodman is excellent, I know that Jane is hit and miss and there were at least a couple that I couldn’t stand, primarily A&E excepting a very few eps.

I actually did this once! I don't know if I still have it...

[tennisgurl]

Regina painting Tramp on MMs car is just peak pettiness. Its so immature and bitchy that not even Regina from Mean Girls would stoop to such petty, lame levels. Its less manipulative mayor/sorceress, and more bitchy girl in an after school special about cyber bullying. Its also so totally in character for Regina, its hilarious. 

I really like this episode, maybe even now more in retrospect. I love that Abigail turned out not only to not be a bitch, but also has her own spy network, guards, a fabulous wardrobe, and a tragic backstory of her own. In fact, I really like the whole EF story line in general actually, it feels very fairy tale, in a fun, magical kind of way. Charming going on a quest to save Abigail's true love just because he wants her to be happy because he is just a good person is classic fairy-tale hero that I love, and I like how it used AAbigail's father being King Midas in what happened to Frederick. Its nice to see the show really using the characters they use and the stories behind them, and not just name checking them. And I liked the women playing the Siren a lot, even in such a small part. She comes across as very creepy, but also sexy and otherworldly. It was also fun to see the start of the Red/Charming friendship, which I always loved. And I love how it all worked out for everyone, and how it moved things along, while still giving us some happy endings. 

It also makes watching David Nolan being all wishy washy even worse, as you can really feel it being a curse, and not just something that needs to happen because of the plot. I really do hate seeing a stand up guy like Charming be stuck inside of David Nolan. That being said, I do like the present day stuff more than I've liked many other parts of this love triangle stuff. Everyone seemed to be acting in ways that are understandable, and reacted to things in ways that seem true to life. Even Regina had a real moment when she showed sadness at Henry wanting to be with Emma instead of hanging with her. Of course, that all goes down hill when you remember that Regina is constantly gas-lighting her own son, clearly cares more about her petty vengeance against a woman who has no memory of even having an arch enemy than spending real time with him, and will go on to hurt the women who considered her a friend. Its awful seeing Katherine opening up to Regina, thanking her for being a friend, and taking the high road and being a good, strong person,  when her so called "friend" will use and discard her like she was nothing, keeping her away from her true love while pretending to be her friend, and then making her disappear, treating her as a pawn in her revenge plans. 

Also, its a little thing, but I always laugh when Charming hears that Frederick is under a curse, and he is just like "did you try True Loves Kiss?" in the most casual way possible It totally makes sense in his universe, and its a good question to ask, but the way he says it, like he just asked Abigail if she took an aspirin for a headache. Like a True Loves Kiss is the Ibuprofen of the Enchanted Forrest. 

Spoiler

Sadly, that actually will become how things work in this universe. A few awkward conversations is enough for true love strong enough to break a magical curse. Like making a CVS run. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

Regina painting Tramp on MMs car is just peak pettiness. Its so immature and bitchy that not even Regina from Mean Girls would stoop to such petty, lame levels. Its less manipulative mayor/sorceress, and more bitchy girl in an after school special about cyber bullying. Its also so totally in character for Regina, its hilarious. 

It's ridiculous, but I love it. As you said, it's just so Regina.

This episode is vastly underrated. It really kicks off the mid-season tension. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 7/15/2018 at 4:41 PM, tennisgurl said:

Also, its a little thing, but I always laugh when Charming hears that Frederick is under a curse, and he is just like "did you try True Loves Kiss?" in the most casual way possible It totally makes sense in his universe, and its a good question to ask, but the way he says it, like he just asked Abigail if she took an aspirin for a headache. Like a True Loves Kiss is the Ibuprofen of the Enchanted Forrest. 

It's funny, but it doesn't really fit with the pilot, when he's not actually trying to TLK Snow and seems surprised when it works. He's just kissing her goodbye. I guess maybe it's something people know about but is more of a legend, not something anyone has actually seen happen. But then he wouldn't be so casual about it, I guess. And he's assuming that they have that magical true love, as though that's obvious.

While it is a funny thing that you might expect to be in a fairy tale world, they're kind of inconsistent about it.

I do love that Regina was so very petty, but

Spoiler

it makes it even more galling that she was slut shaming Snow for sleeping with her own husband, but she got all kinds of pep talks when she was committing adultery with the husband of one of her victims while the wife (as far as she knew) was under a curse in a magical coma. And she didn't have a single moment of awareness of realizing this. No apology.

[profdanglais]

I actually quite like this episode. The slut-shaming of MM is horrible and David Nolan will never not suck, but I like the fairyback. Abigail is badass, and I keep forgetting how much I liked S1 Charming. He had a bit of an arrogant edge that I dig, and the scene with him and Siren!Snow at the lake is the sexiest non-CS moment of the whole show, IMO. I also like the contrast between Charming and David, it makes David's cursed personality genuinely heartbreaking. 

[Rumsy4]

I’m behind in the rewatch. I really enjoyed this episode. I liked it the first time too. It was so refreshing to see the “other” woman (Abigail in this case) not being treated like a bitch. 

I didn’t get why MM told Kathryn that she and David had never lied to her. I mean—she had been carrying on an illicit affair with a married guy. Just because she decided to come clean doesn’t mean what she did was okay.

 

On 7/14/2018 at 10:19 PM, Shanna Marie said:

The conversations between Emma and Mary Margaret are lovely, particularly the scene at the end when Emma lies down next to Mary Margaret in silent comfort.

I love that scene! When OUAT still did subtlety.

Spoiler

Too bad Kathryn never went to Law School.

[Camera One]

I'm really behind in my rewatch.  I really disliked the adultery plot, so I haven't been too motivated to rewatch, but the thing with these Season 1 episodes is, once you start watching, they grab you like a siren in Lake Nostos and they don't let go.

I enjoyed Abigail's twist line, "I don't want to marry you either."  The flashback in this episode was hopeful, which made it a nice picker upper.  We got to see Abigail reunite with her true love.

Spoiler

Though leave it to A&E to complete ignore that Frederick existed after this, and not bothering to give us a reunion (though I thought I've read that there was a deleted scene, probably with no dialogue).

August's lines were bad and annoying.  Why would August never tell Emma his name?  That was just stupid.  Finding out his name was August was a reveal I couldn't care less about.  I did like the idea that "water flows across all lands connecting worlds".  These magical elements just made this show.  Too bad nothing ever came of it.  At this point, I thought maybe Storybrooke was on top of the Enchanted Forest, so it would make sense Lake Nostos water could be beneath.  

Spoiler

This subplot of revealing who stole the book and Emma finding the book felt like a waste of time, because I don't recall how it made any difference whatsoever.  August added his story into the book, but who cares?  Maybe it will make sense when I watch more of this season.  

David was a tad arrogant in the flashback, with refusing to leave an offering to the guardian of the lake.  I'm not sure I liked that.  I forgot that this episode was one of his solo flashbacks.  

I wasn't too fond of the present-day soap opera stuff with the slapping and slut shaming, but it was well acted, so that kept it fairly riveting.  Granny's comment in particular hurt.

I had to roll my eyes when Regina told Kathryn "Relationships take work."  Yeah, as if you would know.  Regina's crazy evil face was in full force with that final conversation with Kathryn.  The order of the scenes were the tad confusing at the end.  Showing Regina sneak into the house to steal the letter long before Kathryn driving down the street at night was confusing, since where would Kathryn during that interim time?

That was another nice moment with Emma and Snow in the loft at the end.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Camera One

[Iju]

this episode was a drag. firstly the romance of mary and david had dried out so quickly even before this episode but now it's really reached its peak.

for one thing i have to say the actors with each other is off the charts and is very enjoyable to watch and i really adored watching mary and david's teasing with each other. but it really all went down the drain when they kissed for the first time it was so unsatisfying and it felt like the writers were working the audience for nothing. then secondly they were showing their relationship in secret as if it was cute or something? their story was already getting dragged out to hell and back and it's like the writers didn't know what to do with them even before they kissed.

but now we're supposed to feel bad for mary because she walked right into a relationship with david that they BOTH knew was wrong? LMFAO this is how you don't write characters you feel sorry for. mary gets exactly what she deserves and she's a brat for blaming all her sorrow on david for not telling. they should have never been in a relationship AT ALL, and david can go to hell with his pleading and begging mary on for the millionth time to stay. it's not that hard to leave someone you're not in love with, and he clearly wasn't in love with his wife so why didn't he leave? maybe because he liked the idea of banging two women without having to sacrifice anything. they ruined one of the most interesting plots of the show that i don't even care how they became married in the past. 

and WHY THE HELL is regina so focused on david and his boring ass wife? at first i thought her dreading her to leave was because she was secretly in love with her, but that doesn't explain how she's grinch grinning every single time she gets time alone. what's the damn point of burning the envelope? so david can't find out about a woman he doesn't even love? what the hell does this woman want? at this point she's not even intimidating or a villain you love to hate, she's just plain annoying.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Iju