S06.E11: Appointment in Samarra

[Guest]

Dean seeks out Death to help get Sam's soul back. Death tells Dean he will help Sam if Dean will agree to act as Death for 24 hours. Meanwhile, Sam decides he doesn't want his soul back and asks Balthazar for a protective spell to keep his soul out of his body. Balthazar tells Sam he needs the blood of his father for the spell to work and since John Winchester is dead, Sam decides Bobby is the next best thing.

 

 

[DittyDotDot]

In my mind, this might be the best of S6, quality-wise (even though I might enjoy watching Weekend At Bobby's more). They have two strong stories going on that tie to each other, but also work independent of each other. I adore Death and Tessa, so the two of them together in one episode already makes me happy. Plus, Sam gets his soul back before I got tired of this whole soullessness business.

 

My nitpicks are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. First, I'm not sure why Dean walked down two flights of stairs to have his conversation with Death considering that time was of the essence. Personally, I think that scene would've played better (and made more sense) if they were in the same room as the doctor rather cutting between them. I realize the shooting of it would've been much more difficult and cost more, but still would've been worth it, IMO. Second, Sam walks away from Dean in the last one and Dean does the veil walk by himself here, but magically Sam's present at Bobby's house in the next scene. I wouldn't have minded an explanation here, but I'm okay without it too. Third, I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the rings. So, Dean wears the ring in order to be Death for a day then gives the ring back to Death so he can do the job, but nobody has been wearing the ring for a year and a half? What's Death been doing all this time? Does Death even need the ring to be Death? Okay, maybe this one is somewhat important to the workings of this universe, but it doesn't really bother me all that much not knowing the answer either.

 

So, not perfect, but pretty damn good, IMO.

[rue721]

I like Death, but I don't get him. If he's sick of the Winchesters always "beating" death/Death by bouncing their souls into and out of the afterlife like it's nbd and creating a ruin of the natural order, then why does he give Sam's soul back in the end? Isn't that just reenforcing the behavior that he doesn't like? It made him seem like an indulgent grandparent or something to me, which kind of takes the fun out of the character.

 

Speaking of "indulgent grandparent"-type behavior, though, maybe Death forcing Dean to use the ring for a whole day was the SPN equivalent of catching a kid smoking and making him smoke the whole pack right there so that he'd lose his taste for it.

 

I also felt bad for Soulless Sam as he was crying "noooo!" when Death started putting the soul back in him, because he was actually 100% correct to be terrified imo. I actually wish he'd freaked out more, but I guess SSam always had ice-water running through his veins, so that was probably the right choice after all.

 

But I actually didn't even understand why there was a debate about getting Sam's soul out of the cage in the first place. OF COURSE they had to try and get it out. If they already felt terrible about how much Sam had been tortured in the cage in the 18 earth!months or so that he'd been in there, then how could they just throw up their hands and abandon his soul to Lucifer and the cage forever? And once the soul was out, where else were they going to put it but in Sam's body? There's a war up in heaven, so the choices were basically to put it either in Sam's body or in purgatory, and obviously Sam's body is the better choice of the two. It just seemed so weird to me that Dean would get all sadfais about how Sam would feel once he was out of the cage, considering that it couldn't be worse than how he was feeling in the cage. If Soulless Sam was just a replicant, than presumably the REAL Sam was down there being tortured. What choice would he have but to try and rescue real!Sam from that?

 

Anyway, the Bobby/patricide plot didn't come together very well for me, tbh. The whole thing of it being "close enough" to patricide for Sam to kill Bobby seemed so sloppy. Why not have Bobby own such-and-such magic thing that he's willing to guard with his life, and have Soulless Sam need to or just try to kill him to get it? No need to get all complicated and emo about basically just a plot catalyst. I thought that SSam's attempt to keep from getting his soul back was over-complicated altogether. Dean was the one bugging out about giving Sam his soul back, so if Soulless Sam were actually that convinced he didn't want it, why hadn't he been trying to kill Dean already? He likes working with him, but Dean isn't the only hunter on the planet. That "kill Bobby!" SL and the fallout from it w/r/t Bobby felt like to me like it was just a contrivance made in order to work Bobby more into the plot and to set the show up so that Sam would later have some personal consequences to deal with w/r/t Soulless Sam's behavior. Obviously Dean wasn't going to hold Soulless Sam's behavior against him, so I guess Bobby had to be the one sacrificed at that alter. But I didn't think that it worked very well, because this set up was so weak. YMMV, of course.

[mertensia]

I think Death is ever so slightly wary of Dean. Dean is, in his own way, basically a force of nature and he wants Dean to learn about how things are disrupted when the natural order is disrupted so that Dean thinks twice next time before doing something that disrupts natural order because just saying "don't " to Dean is useless.

[DittyDotDot]

I like Death, but I don't get him. If he's sick of the Winchesters always "beating" death/Death by bouncing their souls into and out of the afterlife like it's nbd and creating a ruin of the natural order, then why does he give Sam's soul back in the end? Isn't that just reenforcing the behavior that he doesn't like? It made him seem like an indulgent grandparent or something to me, which kind of takes the fun out of the character.

 

I think Tessa said it best, "But you have a long history of throwing a wrench in everything." Personally, I think Death knows Dean's probably going to find a way to get Sam's soul back anyway--and probably not a good way--so might as well indulge him now that he seemed to learn his lesson. I also think Death knows Sam needs to have a soul or his job is going to get a whole lot worse. But mostly, I think Death wants Dean to stop being distracted with Sam's soulless issues and wants him to pay attention to the mystery of the souls.

 

Anyway, the Bobby/patricide plot didn't come together very well for me, tbh. The whole thing of it being "close enough" to patricide for Sam to kill Bobby seemed so sloppy. Why not have Bobby own such-and-such magic thing that he's willing to guard with his life, and have Soulless Sam need to or just try to kill him to get it? No need to get all complicated and emo about basically just a plot catalyst. I thought that SSam's attempt to keep from getting his soul back was over-complicated altogether. Dean was the one bugging out about giving Sam his soul back, so if Soulless Sam were actually that convinced he didn't want it, why hadn't he been trying to kill Dean already? He likes working with him, but Dean isn't the only hunter on the planet. That "kill Bobby!" SL and the fallout from it w/r/t Bobby felt like to me like it was just a contrivance made in order to work Bobby more into the plot and to set the show up so that Sam would later have some personal consequences to deal with w/r/t Soulless Sam's behavior. Obviously Dean wasn't going to hold Soulless Sam's behavior against him, so I guess Bobby had to be the one sacrificed at that alter. But I didn't think that it worked very well, because this set up was so weak. YMMV, of course.

 

I agree the patricide spell was forced--and to be honest, I'm not a big fan of Balthazar and could've lived without him in this episode at all. It could've simply been Sam needed a human organ to complete the spell and Bobby was the closest option or any number of less contrived ideas. But, even though, it feels forced, it doesn't get in the way of my enjoying Sam stalking Bobby in his own house--of course Bobby has a few contingencies--nor does it take me out of the episode since I think it makes sense that Sam wouldn't want his soul back. I'll hold my comments about the forced nature of Bobby's resentment till I finish the next one--personally, I think that's out of character for Bobby too.

[Dobian]

I found the episode gut-wrenching, especially when that poor nurse died unnecessarily and her fiancé lost it.  My only question is, even though Dean stopped further disruption of the natural order by finally taking the girl heart patient, the natural order is still permanently out of whack since the nurse will never have the children she was supposed to have, which alters a whole expanding chain of events over the years to come.  Dean's stubbornness has always been his weakness, and while I'm great with him killing your garden variety monsters, I can see why various gods, angels, and even demons, get a little uneasy with him being in a position to make decisions that could send the world into a literal black hole.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Dobian

[auntvi]

Watched this again tonight and that last scene is one of the most difficult to watch in the series. Sam is begging Death not to stuff his soul back in, because he knows what could happen, and he's cuffed to the bed and is basically violated. All because Dean can't stand that Soulless Sam is different from "his" Sam, the "Other", not human as far as Dean's concerned. Earlier in the season Dean even tells Bobby that he wants to kill Sam, and Bobby has to talk him off the ledge. Interesting parallel to Dean forcing Sam to detox against his will way back in Season 4, another very difficult scene to watch. In both situations Dean would rather that Sam be dead than be "Other". Dean exerts control as if Sam belongs to him, and is not his own person.

I thought that Cas's argument with Dean at the beginning of ep. 12 was interesting to watch, especially, "If you wanted to kill your brother you should have done it outright." I know we later find out that Cas had a lot more to do with Sam's situation than he's admitting, but there's some truth there.

[Myrelle]

I think that Sam's soul(AKA SouledSam when he was born and before the two parts of him were separated AKA Dean's brother) would have agreed with Dean that SoullessSam was not "his own person" and I think SouledSam would further agree that SoullessSam was definitely not Dean's brother. And at this point in the series, I think that Sam would do the same thing to and for a SoullessDean if the situation was similar but just reversed. In fact, Sam pretty much did just that when he turned DemonDean back into HumanDean because he knew that that is what HumanDean(AKA Sam's brother) would have wanted. And in both instances, yes, the saving involved taking a chance that could have meant killing them; but again, I'm pretty certain that both would rather the attempt be made and fail than that the status quo remain in place.

I'll never accept the argument that SoullessSam was his own person and deserved to live while Sam's soul suffered in the cage. Never. And I'm glad that Dean wouldn't accept it from anyone either. Dean tried to save Sam-not just his Sam, but HumanSam's Sam, too.

And IIRC, both fully human counterparts thanked the respective brother that saved them afterwards.

It's all well and good to like the darker aspect of your favorite character(I LOVED! DemonDean and wish that he would have lasted as long as SoullessSam-whom I despised), but I don't get where this argument came from that SoullessSam was ever his own person. I didn't get it back when the episode aired and I still don't get it now. He was just an aspect of HumanSam as DemonDean was an aspect of HumanDean and w/o the missing parts/pieces/shadings neither Soulless nor Demon could ever be "their own person" because something was missing that made them that-a person. What was missing was what made them human, and as such, "a person" of any sort. IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

I think Soulless Sam was his own person; a very dangerous person and a sociopath. I don't really think of it as Dean getting Sam's soul back simply because he wasn't the Sam he wants him to be, but Soulless Sam was a danger to everyone around him. Soulless Sam couldn't be contained, so the only other option was to kill him. It was a big chance Dean was taking, but it's not like the other option was any better.

[Hanahope]

I agree that Dean did the right thing.  Not just for him and the world (since soulless Sam was very dangerous to everyone) but for Sam too.  It wasn't really Sam without his soul. Sam with a soul would agree.

I appreciated that Dean learned that sometimes death is necessary, even of children.  And I'm interested to learn more about the soul mystery mentioned by Death.  

[gonzosgirrl]

On 1/31/2017 at 9:49 PM, auntvi said:

Watched this again tonight and that last scene is one of the most difficult to watch in the series. Sam is begging Death not to stuff his soul back in, because he knows what could happen, and he's cuffed to the bed and is basically violated. All because Dean can't stand that Soulless Sam is different from "his" Sam, the "Other", not human as far as Dean's concerned. Earlier in the season Dean even tells Bobby that he wants to kill Sam, and Bobby has to talk him off the ledge. Interesting parallel to Dean forcing Sam to detox against his will way back in Season 4, another very difficult scene to watch. In both situations Dean would rather that Sam be dead than be "Other". Dean exerts control as if Sam belongs to him, and is not his own person.

I thought that Cas's argument with Dean at the beginning of ep. 12 was interesting to watch, especially, "If you wanted to kill your brother you should have done it outright." I know we later find out that Cas had a lot more to do with Sam's situation than he's admitting, but there's some truth there.

And yet, (Season 9/10 spoiler)

Spoiler

Sam does exactly the same thing with Demon Dean a couple years later, abducting him and forcing the demon cure on him.  I'm curious if you also believe Sam exerted control over Dean as if he belongs to him? Demon Dean wasn't any more or less human than Soulless Sam. And even though in the end, DDean was begging him not to, even though both DDean and Sam acknowledged that the cure might actually be killing him, he went through with it, because he wanted his 'real' brother back. And because he knew that the 'real' Dean wouldn't want to live as a demon.

They each risked the other's life in an attempt to save their souls I believe they both did the right thing. Sure, that's my opinion, but it's also the opinion expressed by both brothers after the fact of their respective 'cures' at the other's hand. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet, (Season 9/10 spoiler)

  Hide contents

Sam does exactly the same thing with Demon Dean a couple years later, abducting him and forcing the demon cure on him.  I'm curious if you also believe Sam exerted control over Dean as if he belongs to him? Demon Dean wasn't any more or less human than Soulless Sam. And even though in the end, DDean was begging him not to, even though both DDean and Sam acknowledged that the cure might actually be killing him, he went through with it, because he wanted his 'real' brother back. And because he knew that the 'real' Dean wouldn't want to live as a demon.

They each risked the other's life in an attempt to save their souls I believe they both did the right thing. Sure, that's my opinion, but it's also the opinion expressed by both brothers after the fact of their respective 'cures' at the other's hand. 

Taking my reply to the Bitch vs Jerk thread

[Katy M]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 9:49 PM, auntvi said:

Watched this again tonight and that last scene is one of the most difficult to watch in the series. Sam is begging Death not to stuff his soul back in, because he knows what could happen, and he's cuffed to the bed and is basically violated. All because Dean can't stand that Soulless Sam is different from "his" Sam, the "Other", not human as far as Dean's concerned.

I disagree.  If you had asked Sam in Season 5 what he would want done in the case of losing his soul, he would have wanted it put back, no matter what.  Soulless Sam may not have wanted that.  But, Soulless Sam wasn't real Sam.  And, afterwards, Sam thanked him.  So, I don't see this as Dean taking away Sam's free will.  Plus, Soulless Sam was OK with just killing anyone.  So, it was either re-soul him, or put him down.  He was dangerous.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

I disagree.  If you had asked Sam in Season 5 what he would want done in the case of losing his soul, he would have wanted it put back, no matter what.  Soulless Sam may not have wanted that.  But, Soulless Sam wasn't real Sam.  And, afterwards, Sam thanked him.  So, I don't see this as Dean taking away Sam's free will.  Plus, Soulless Sam was OK with just killing anyone.  So, it was either re-soul him, or put him down.  He was dangerous.

I do agree that Sam both needed, and would have wanted (had he known previously, like Bobby when he gave his soul to Crowley and still wanted it back) to get his soul back.  Heck, even Soulless!Sam initially wanted his soul back.  It was only when he found out the possible consequences (that he could die) that he changed his mind.  But I digress...

Re: the bolded part - I don't think that's quite accurate.  SoullessSam didn't just go around killing anyone.  He did kill the girl in order to kill the monster using her as a shield.  (Which I'm kind of ticked that we didn't get to see except in flashbacks).  And he had no compunction about using the deputy (sherriff?) as bait for the spider monster.  However, we only ever saw him either putting innocent people in peril or outright killing them in the course of when he was hunting.  I'm not saying that makes it okay.  I'm just saying that he didn't indiscriminately go after anyone.  That was also when he didn't know he was soulless and wasn't hunting with Dean.  Dean, especially once he learned Sam was missing his soul, was pretty much his conscious and kept him in line.  He wasn't 'dangerous' anymore at that point, imo.  

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Re: the bolded part - I don't think that's quite accurate.  SoullessSam didn't just go around killing anyone.  He did kill the girl in order to kill the monster using her as a shield.  (Which I'm kind of ticked that we didn't get to see except in flashbacks).  And he had no compunction about using the deputy (sherriff?) as bait for the spider monster.  However, we only ever saw him either putting innocent people in peril or outright killing them in the course of when he was hunting.  I'm not saying that makes it okay.  I'm just saying that he didn't indiscriminately go after anyone.  That was also when he didn't know he was soulless and wasn't hunting with Dean.  Dean, especially once he learned Sam was missing his soul, was pretty much his conscious and kept him in line.  He wasn't 'dangerous' anymore at that point, imo.  

Oh, I disagree, Soulless Sam was very dangerous. Granted he wasn't killing indiscriminately, but he had no problem killing anyone that got in the way of his hunt or his goal. He may not have went on a cross county murder spree mowing down everyone he saw, but everyone Soulless Sam came in contact with was a potential victim. Just depended on his mood or his goals.

Plus, Dean couldn't control him. Soulless Sam was just playing nice and obliging Dean, but he was done doing that at this point. This episode alone proves that Dean being his Jiminy Cricket wan't a long-term solution. Dean couldn't keep watch over Soulless Sam 24/7--and Soulless Sam didn't sleep--and there was nowhere they could lock him Soulless Sam couldn't escape. So, the only real options were, kill the monster or turn the monster back into a human, IMO. 

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Re: the bolded part - I don't think that's quite accurate.  SoullessSam didn't just go around killing anyone.  He did kill the girl in order to kill the monster using her as a shield.  (Which I'm kind of ticked that we didn't get to see except in flashbacks).  And he had no compunction about using the deputy (sherriff?) as bait for the spider monster.  However, we only ever saw him either putting innocent people in peril or outright killing them in the course of when he was hunting.  I'm not saying that makes it okay.  I'm just saying that he didn't indiscriminately go after anyone.  That was also when he didn't know he was soulless and wasn't hunting with Dean.  Dean, especially once he learned Sam was missing his soul, was pretty much his conscious and kept him in line.  He wasn't 'dangerous' anymore at that point, imo.  

Sam was two seconds away from killing Bobby when Dean came back. I would put that under the category of being OK with just killing anyone.  I will say that it wasn't necessarily malicious.  It was more just cold-hearted robotic, need to get the job done.   However, IMO, that's not acceptable.

 

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

cross county murder spree mowing down everyone he saw

 Depending on the county that may not be that bad:)  Sorry, just sometimes when I see a typo it hits my funny bone.  And, I make plenty myself.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Depending on the county that may not be that bad:)  Sorry, just sometimes when I see a typo it hits my funny bone.  And, I make plenty myself.

Hee! In the words of Shawn Spencer, "I've heard it both ways." ;)

I love proofing day at the office. I don't proof--because I suck at it--but I make the corrections, and I love taking the typos and trying to make them into something. It's fun. Like the guy who peddled his bike across Peru... 

[Pondlass1]

19 hours ago, Katy M said:

that last scene is one of the most difficult to watch in the series.

It was difficult and uncomfortable to watch - this is what I want - to be invested and moved.  I enjoyed this episode. Which is all I ask from my TV 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam was two seconds away from killing Bobby when Dean came back. I would put that under the category of being OK with just killing anyone. 

I wouldn't.  He was going to kill Bobby because he needed to kill his 'father' in order for the spell to prevent his soul from being put back in to work.  Again, not saying that was acceptable, but he wouldn't have gone after Bobby, because he wouldn't have needed to kill him, if Dean hadn't insisted on getting Sam's soul back.  It was a means to an end.  Same with his other two (of which we know) victims - they were a means to an end to kill the monster.  I'm not saying it was right.  I'm just saying I don't think Soulless Sam was a threat to the general population either, no more than some other hunters we've seen on the show who did have their souls: Gordon and Grampy Campbell (and some of those other Campbells) for example.  

[catrox14]

I have never heard the argument  that SoullessSam was a different person and autonomous person than regular! Sam.

How would that even work? He didn't get a brain transplant and  his DNA wasn't changed. His decision making changed because of being soulless. Being soulless turned him into a sociopath with no empathy and who showed callous indifference and disregard for other humans. (Maybe it revealed who Sam always was without his soul). That callousness  extended to his own brother, Dean, with Sam sitting back and giving no aid to Dean, and even smiling, when a vampire attacked him.

IMO that smile was the moment he decided he could use Dean to take out a nest and then use Dean as a guinea pig for the cure, which could have easily killed Dean, or failed, which meant someone like Sam or Samuel would have to kill vampire!Dean.

It would have been an act of self defense if Dean or Bobby or anyone else had  killed Soulless Sam, given he had already proven his willingness to violate someone's autonomy by using them however he saw fit to advance his mission.

SoullessSam was goddamned lucky that Dean still cared enough about Sam, and was willing to set aside his own issues and resentment and anger to  try to help him even if it meant causing him pain in the short term.

Edited June 16, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

wouldn't.  He was going to kill Bobby because he needed to kill his 'father' in order for the spell to prevent his soul from being put back in to work.  Again, not saying that was acceptable, but he wouldn't have gone after Bobby, because he wouldn't have needed to kill him, if Dean hadn't insisted on getting Sam's soul back

No, he wouldn't have gone after Bobby if he hadn't had a reason.  But, he was still OK with killing him. That is evidenced by the fact that he was about to when Dean stopped him.  Who is to say who he would have "needed" to kill next for whatever reason?  His deal with Balthazar was that he owed him.   I'm not really entirely sure why Balthazar would need Sam to kill people, but if that's what he decided he wanted, then Sam would have done it.  Because they made a deal.  And, one of the few good things you could say about SS is that he always kept his deals.

If Sam had managed to kill Bobby before Dean got back, I think it would be ridiculous to blame Dean for it.  Beyond the fact that he probably shouldn't have told Sam what he was doing, or they should have locked him up before he left.  But, Sam made that decision to kill Bobby on his own.  And, that wasn't OK. Not even a little.  And I'm not saying that because it's Bobby and he's my fave.  I would say the same thing if for some reason, Sam needed to kill some random 5 year old.  And, make no mistake about it.  If scarring your vessel meant killing a 5 year old.  Sam would have done it.  No questions asked.

Or, if Sam neded to kill someone because he needed a gallon of blood for some ritual that he wanted to perform, he would have done it.  If Crowley told him he could give him superpowers if he killed lisa and Ben, he would have done it. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

In no way did I imply, or mean to imply, that it would have been Dean's fault if Sam had killed Bobby.  

As for the other killings - I think we are talking different points.  Yes, I agree Sam would have killed someone if he'd thought he needed to, in order to kill a monster or perform the ritual.   We have proof of that.  That was never my contention.  I'm pretty sure I also said it wasn't acceptable.  I was simply saying Sam wasn't going on random psycho-mass-murdering sprees for no reason.   Those were the only two reasons we ever saw Sam outright kill or try to kill someone.  I disagree that Sam would have killed Lisa and Ben, or anyone, for a deal with Crowley.  Now, in order to kill Crowley...yeah, he would have done it for that.  Again: means to an end.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 I disagree that Sam would have killed Lisa and Ben, or anyone, for a deal with Crowley.  Now, in order to kill Crowley...yeah, he would have done it for that.  Again: means to an end.  

Oh, I think he would've not only killed Ben and Lisa if it suited his purposes, but I think Soulless Sam would've killed Dean if it suited his purposes. I mean, he let Dean be turned into a vampire because it suited his purpose... .

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I think at that point, Sam was all about hunting monsters, so I don't think he would have made a deal with Crowley at all.  Which is why I don't think he would have killed Lisa and Ben for a deal with Crowley - especially not for something like superpowers.  Now since back then, Sam still hated Crowley, I do think he would have killed them, or anyone, in order to kill Crowley; hence my differentiation with the 'for' and 'to kill'.   (Fwiw, imo, 'means to an end' = 'suited his purposes')

I don't think he would have killed Dean.  Sam let him get turned into a vampire, but he also knew there was a cure, so in his very pragmatic mind there was no danger of Dean actually dying.  

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

In no way did I imply, or mean to imply, that it would have been Dean's fault if Sam had killed Bobby.  

As for the other killings - I think we are talking different points.  Yes, I agree Sam would have killed someone if he'd thought he needed to, in order to kill a monster or perform the ritual.   We have proof of that.  That was never my contention.  I'm pretty sure I also said it wasn't acceptable.  I was simply saying Sam wasn't going on random psycho-mass-murdering sprees for no reason.   Those were the only two reasons we ever saw Sam outright kill or try to kill someone.  I disagree that Sam would have killed Lisa and Ben, or anyone, for a deal with Crowley.  Now, in order to kill Crowley...yeah, he would have done it for that.  Again: means to an end.  

Well, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about.  Someone who is willing to kill someone/anyone for their convenience or to reach some goal is, by definition, dangerous.

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I think he would've not only killed Ben and Lisa if it suited his purposes, but I think Soulless Sam would've killed Dean if it suited his purposes. I mean, he let Dean be turned into a vampire because it suited his purpose... .

So, I used to write fan fiction. All of it pretty bad.  But, I was doing a "what-if" series for every episode.  The one I did for You Can't Handle the truth was that Sam wasn't immune and had to tell the truth.  So, it was basically just a short little thing where I redid that scene in the apartment building hallway where Dean asked why he let him turn into a vamp.  Sam answered about getting into the nest. Dean said he could have killed ben. Sam eventually told Dean that Dean was expendable.  I had a reviewer totally go off on me for daring to suggest that Dean would be expendable to SAm and I clearly didn't know what the word meant because if Sam had wanted to kill Dean he had had ample opportunity.  Then, she went on to say how I was a horrible person and wouldn't even call 911 for someone having a heart attack in a grocery store.  The whole thing was totally ridiculous.  Now, I can't even remember why I brought it up.  Probably just because I was glad to get some validation that Sam did see Dean as expendable, I guess.

[Diane]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think he would have killed Dean.  Sam let him get turned into a vampire, but he also knew there was a cure, so in his very pragmatic mind there was no danger of Dean actually dying.  

I didn't think he knew there was a cure until Grandpa Campbell got there.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about. 

Well, I'm not arguing, so.... ??

I was just stating my opinion.  You decided to argue about it.  ;)

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, I'm not arguing, so.... ??

I was just stating my opinion.  You decided to argue about it.  ;)

Maybe disagreeing, would be a better word.  I'm not entirely sure how you can stipulate that Sam is wiling to kill people to serve his purposes and say that he's not dangerous.  Those two clauses seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

 

7 minutes ago, Diane said:

I didn't think he knew there was a cure until Grandpa Campbell got there.

He knew. Samuel said that he had told him. Sam said it wasn't him, it was probably Christian. But, he was pretty clearly lying.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think he would have killed Dean.  Sam let him get turned into a vampire, but he also knew there was a cure, so in his very pragmatic mind there was no danger of Dean actually dying.  

Actually, there was a lot of danger of Dean dying. There was no guarantee the cure would work or that they could get all the ingredients needed for it. And in the meantime Dean could've done a ton of damage to innocents as a vampire--which meant the cure wouldn't have worked. There was no guarantee of anything, just that Soulless Sam had a goal to get inside the vamp nest and this was a means to do it. But, he didn't give a shit if Dean died or not--or if anyone died. He was totally goal-oriented and anything that got in his way was collateral damage. That's dangerous to me.

11 minutes ago, Diane said:

I didn't think he knew there was a cure until Grandpa Campbell got there.

Well, Sam says that he let Dean be turned because he knew about the cure and he thought Dean could handle it. Grampy even calls Sam out for it in the episode. I think Sam did know about the cure, but that didn't really matter anyway. Sam would've done it either way, IMO.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Someone who is willing to kill someone/anyone for their convenience or to reach some goal is, by definition, dangerous.

Exactly.

Edited June 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

Just now, Katy M said:

Maybe disagreeing, would be a better word.  I'm not entirely sure how you can stipulate that Sam is wiling to kill people to serve his purposes and say that he's not dangerous.  Those two clauses seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

 

He knew. Samuel said that he had told him. Sam said it wasn't him, it was probably Christian. But, he was pretty clearly lying.

Thank you for refreshing my memory!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe disagreeing, would be a better word.  I'm not entirely sure how you can stipulate that Sam is wiling to kill people to serve his purposes and say that he's not dangerous.  Those two clauses seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

I was stipulating that Sam was not dangerous to the wider general public in a psycho-mass-murderer crime spree kind of way.  There were very specific circumstances when someone was in danger from Sam - in a hunt when in the way of eliminating a monster.  Otherwise, he managed to interact with plenty of people on hunts also and not kill any of them.  He was also a danger - but only to a select few - on his quest not to get his soul put back in, but only because he thought getting his soul back would kill him.  Until he learned that getting re-souled would probably kill him, he was all for it.  

I can see a difference.  Granted, it's pretty small.  But, imo it's there.  If you can't, that's okay too.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, Sam says that he let Dean be turned because he knew about the cure and he thought Dean could handle it. Grampy even calls Sam out for it in the episode. I think Sam did know about the cure, but that didn't really matter anyway. Sam would've done it either way, IMO.

See, I don't think Sam would have let Dean get turned if he didn't know there was a cure.  Not even because Dean's his brother, just because he was an 'innocent.'  Sam came back from hell without his soul, which he didn't know at the time, but he did know he was different - that he didn't have the same guilt and conscious that he had before.  And he still went back to hunting monsters, (and left Dean out of the 'life' because he thought Dean finally got his 'normal life'.)   But why did Sam go back to hunting monsters at all at that point?  Why didn't he do something else?  I think some part of him still wanted to 'save people'.  Kind of like

Spoiler

Len in 11.05 Thin Lizzie.  He 'remembered' what it was like to do the right thing.

If he'd truly just been a soulless sociopath, he would have knocked over a few banks or something and not cared who he killed doing it.  

So, yeah - Sam used Dean to find the vampire nest and ultimately get to the alpha, but like I said, in his very pragmatic, logical, soulless mind, there wasn't a risk of Dean dying since he knew there was a cure and he grabbed Dean before he could be taken back to the nest to feed, since feeding would have rendered the cure worthless. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But why did Sam go back to hunting monsters at all at that point?  Why didn't he do something else?  I think some part of him still wanted to 'save people'.

Because it was all he knew. I don't know, but I didn't get the sense Soulless Sam was concerned with saving people at all. In fact, I know the episode is pretty despised, but there is a great exchange between Soulless Sam and Dean in All Dogs Go To Heaven where Sam basically says he doesn't care about anyone, just getting the job done. It's kinda chilling, if you ask me.

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

If he'd truly just been a soulless sociopath, he would have knocked over a few banks or something and not cared who he killed doing it.  

But, I don't think Sam did care who he was killing. If the goal had been to knock over a bank, and some people got in the way, he would've killed them and not cared one bit about it. To Soulless Sam, IMO, it wasn't at all about saving people, but killing things. And if a few people got killed or saved along the way was inconsequential as long as he killed what he thought was the monster.

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, yeah - Sam used Dean to find the vampire nest and ultimately get to the alpha, but like I said, in his very pragmatic, logical, soulless mind, there wasn't a risk of Dean dying since he knew there was a cure and he grabbed Dean before he could be taken back to the nest to feed, since feeding would have rendered the cure worthless. 

Well, sure, Soulless Sam didn't think there was a risk, that doesn't mean there wasn't a risk. But, yeah, I think Soulless Sam would've let Dean be turned even if he didn't know about the cure if it got him inside that nest.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because it was all he knew.

And yet

Spoiler

In S8, he becomes a motel handy-man!

I still think there was something there - deep down.  Maybe even just a remnant.  Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to me that he would even care about getting the job done. 

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because it was all he knew. I don't know, but I didn't get the sense Soulless Sam was concerned with saving people at all. In fact, I know the episode is pretty despised, but there is a great exchange between Soulless Sam and Dean in All Dogs Go To Heaven where Sam basically says he doesn't care about anyone, just getting the job done. It's kinda chilling, if you ask me.

Yeah, I don't think SS cared about saving people, either.  I think maybe he liked the thrill of the hunt.  And, not sleeping, he had a lot of time to fill somehow.  I like All Dogs Go to Heaven:)  And, yes, I think that last scene was a very important one.  He didn't care about anyone.  He even specifically said he didn't really care about Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I still think there was something there - deep down.  Maybe even just a remnant.  Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to me that he would even care about getting the job done. 

I think he just liked the hunting and working out the puzzles and he had the knowledge and skill to do it. Sociopaths aren't necessarily violent or murderous, they're just manipulative and act without conscious in order to achieve one's goals. The goal doesn't have to be noble, though.

ETA: or what @Katy M said.

Edited June 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

On ‎2017‎-‎06‎-‎16 at 1:14 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I think he just liked the hunting and working out the puzzles and he had the knowledge and skill to do it. Sociopaths aren't necessarily violent or murderous, they're just manipulative and act without conscious in order to achieve one's goals. The goal doesn't have to be noble, though.

ETA: or what @Katy M said.

Plus, he was pulled out of the cage for one reason: to help Cas and Crowley get to the Alphas via Samuel.  If being soulless left him blank, so to speak, then he was open to doing what he was told, and he went with what he knew. Killing things. IMO the saving people part was a happy accident, but not the main goal. And yeah, as others have stated, regardless of whether he knew there was a cure or not (and I have my doubts there), there was a better than average chance that Dean would either turn or be killed before it could be administered. And Sam didn't care a bit.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Plus, he was pulled out of the cage for one reason: to help Cas and Crowley get to the Alphas via Samuel.

As I recall,

Spoiler

Castiel pulled Sam out of the cage before he made his deal with Crowley--he pulled Sam out of the cage, Sam ran off--which, according to Cass should've been his first warning--then Cass returned to Heaven where Raphael handed his ass to him. He then went back down to Earth and was "stalking" Dean when Crowley showed up and made the offer. Sam didn't have anything to do with Cass's deal with Crowley other than, at some point, Sam and Samuel met and started working together. Sam didn't even know what Samuel was up to with the Alphas or that Crowley was involved.

 

ETA: Just realized that was kinda spoilery.

Edited June 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I recall,

  Hide contents

Castiel pulled Sam out of the cage before he made his deal with Crowley--he pulled Sam out of the cage, Sam ran off--which, according to Cass should've been his first warning--then Cass returned to Heaven where Raphael handed his ass to him. He then went back down to Earth and was "stalking" Dean when Crowley showed up and made the offer. Sam didn't have anything to do with Cass's deal with Crowley other than, at some point, Sam and Samuel met and started working together. Sam didn't even know what Samuel was up to with the Alphas or that Crowley was involved.

 

ETA: Just realized that was kinda spoilery.

I know Sam didn't know but I think Cas did. Otherwise, no matter what they say I can't reconcile him saving Sam immediately and still never telling Dean Sam was alive. Somebody put him together with the Campbells. 

[lmdreamer]

I enjoyed this episode and thought it was one of the best featuring death who is seemingly the most powerful character in the series which was why

Spoiler

I find it hard to believe he is really and truly dead.  Throughout this episode as well as in the season 7 opener he has demonstrated the ability to read minds.  He had to have known dean was going to turn on him.  I hope they bring him back if only to show that he was simply testing  how far gone dean was.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know Sam didn't know but I think Cas did. Otherwise, no matter what they say I can't reconcile him saving Sam immediately and still never telling Dean Sam was alive. Somebody put him together with the Campbells. 

Moved to The Man Who Would Be King thread...

[auntvi]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:07 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I still think there was something there - deep down.  Maybe even just a remnant.  Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to me that he would even care about getting the job done. 

SSam talks about having Sam's memories; I think the connection is there and with his connection to Dean.

I don't know if it makes any difference, but at the time of Appt. in Samarra when SSam is trying to prevent Dean from returning his soul, we don't know  all the things SSam did on hunts with Grandpa Campbell. We see those later in flashbacks. I know it's an UO, but I think SSam was just trying not to die; it was self-preservation, not being a psychopath.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I know it's an UO, but I think SSam was just trying not to die; it was self-preservation, not being a psychopath.

Well, I agree with you about survival in this episode, but I speaking to Soulless Sam as a whole, not just this episode. And, I would never characterize Soulless Sam was a psychopath, I think of him as a sociopath.

[bettername2come]

I never got the episode title until the episode of Sherlock that tells the story.

I'm really curious what Dean wrote in that "just in case" letter to Ben and think it's interesting that he wrote to Ben not Lisa. I assume this is to emphasize him not wanting to reap the kids later in the episode. I like Tessa. I've been watching her since Saved by the Bell: The New Class, and that actress has done her best work on this series. "Dean, quit shuffling and deal." I'm gonna start using that. I love Death. He's so frightening and powerful, but not evil, and the actor really nails it. He and Dean also have great chemistry. Sebastian Roche is a great actor who can work a v-neck. I might be charmed by the accent. "How did Betty White outlast me?" I hope Betty White outlasts Supernatural so that all the characters have a chance to ponder that. Don't threaten a kid in front of Dean Winchester. He will revel in your demise. I like Dean asking about the pizza since he and Dean had a conversation over pizza last time they met. Does the sick girl have the teddy bear from the wish episode? It looks the same. Bobby is a genius! I love how ridiculously prepared he always is. "Dean doesn't care about me. He just cares about his little brother, Sammy, burning in hell. He'll kill me to get that other guy back." Damned if I don't kind of feel for Soulless Sam in that moment. "Ain't nobody killin' me in my house but me." Quote to use next time I go investigate a strange noise. Is it wrong that I laughed at Tessa telling on Dean to the nurse? Death brought Dean a bacon dog! And he's getting Sammy's soul!  Death is awesome.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I would think that when undergoing a procedure like Dean was taking on at the beginning of the ep, payment in full would be withheld until I was successfully brought back!  

People have still been dying since the boys shut Lucifer back in the cage.  So obviously, Death's power was not in his ring, or at least not only in his ring, unlike the other horsemen.  I like @bettername2come's description of Death: powerful and frightening, but not evil.  When Dean was playing Death-for-a-day, I think it reinforces my theory that Death didn't intentionally kill Detroit-bump-guy, but rather, bump guy died because he touched Death.  Anyone Dean merely touched, died.  He didn't have to do some extra motion or have special intent to make them die.  

The sick girl's dad looked a little like crazy Martin.  I know it wasn't.  But they kinda favored each other.  Hey, maybe they're brothers and that's why Tessa said "not really" when Dean asked if he had any other family.  ...'Cause, his crazy brother didn't really count.  lol.  

I just realized that could have applied to Sam at this point.  Hm.

I liked the cat-and-mouse between Sam and Bobby.  That was chock full of suspense and good twists.  

I don't understand why Bobby didn't come back with "that other guy IS you!" when SoullessSam was talking about Dean only caring about his little brother Sammy.  That's what I was thinking.  That's what I was waiting for.  They weren't exactly two distinct separate people.  They were the same person, just different facets in a way, imo.   

I can't remember if I felt sorry for SoullessSam's fear and pain when Death returned his soul the first time I watched this ep.   I sure didn't this time.  Death had an interesting reason for helping Dean and Sam.  "You're useful."  That says a good bit, coming from Death, I think.  I wonder if he razzes God about continually bringing them back to life and how that messes up his natural order of things?  I'd like to hear that conversation.  

Spoiler

Why have we never gotten a scene with Chuck and Death?

Edited August 17, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
spoiler tag added.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

People have still been dying since the boys shut Lucifer back in the cage.  So obviously, Death's power was not in his ring, or at least not only in his ring, unlike the other horsemen.

Well, there has still been war, disease, and famine since those horsemen lost their rings.  I'm not sure if Death has full control over death since he is supposed to be on the same level as the other horsemen (I would think) and they clearly don't have full control over their things.

 

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't understand why Bobby didn't come back with "that other guy IS you!" when SoullessSam was talking about Dean only caring about his little brother Sammy.  That's what I was thinking.  That's what I was waiting for.  They weren't exactly two distinct separate people.  They were the same person, just different facets in a way, imo.   

Probably because Sam didn't see it that way, so there wouldn't have been much point in Bobby saying it.

You might want to put a spoiler tag over that last question.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Probably because Sam didn't see it that way, so there wouldn't have been much point in Bobby saying it.

Of course SoullessSam didn't see it that way.  That's why he needed to hear it, imo.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

You might want to put a spoiler tag over that last question.

Done, though I don't think it was really necessary.  

[Iju]

idk i feel pretty empty about this episode since it felt pretty useless to me??? sam got his soul back regardless so...eh. they should have just stuck with dean keeping the ring on to get sam's soul back imo. i'm glad that sam's soul is back - however wrecked it will surely be - and i'm even gladder that we didn't have to trudge along with fake sam for so long, but how he got it back felted rushed. i feel sam getting his soul back should have been a two parter.

and i understand about dean's feelings on saving people and especially with family, i really do, but him dodging the girl didn't feel right to me. it's just as he said in S1, "I'm scared for the lengths I will go to protect you guys." i thought dean would have felt really bad but he wasn't doing this whole death thing for fun, he was doing it for sam. so he would have just taken her soul and trucked on. i know actions have consequences but dangit if i wasn't sour the nurse was killed because of dean. i'm so sick of things being his fault, FPS!

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Iju said:

idk i feel pretty empty about this episode since it felt pretty useless to me???

 

 

23 minutes ago, Iju said:

i thought dean would have felt really bad but he wasn't doing this whole death thing for fun, he was doing it for sam. so he would have just taken her soul and trucked on. i know actions have consequences but dangit if i wasn't sour the nurse was killed because of dean. i'm so sick of things being his fault, FPS!

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Dean couldn't stand to see a child die. I can imagine the outcry if Dean didn't bat an eye at a child dying and didn't try to change it. He had to learn about the natural order that Death seems to want in place.

I'll admit that I've never really seen a reaction that this episode was useless considering Dean was willing to risk death to get Sam's soul back. That's kind of a big thing.  And that Dean learned about how important the natural order is to Death.  

[Iju]

On 26/04/2018 at 4:25 PM, catrox14 said:

 

 

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Dean couldn't stand to see a child die. I can imagine the outcry if Dean didn't bat an eye at a child dying and didn't try to change it. He had to learn about the natural order that Death seems to want in place.

I'll admit that I've never really seen a reaction that this episode was useless considering Dean was willing to risk death to get Sam's soul back. That's kind of a big thing.  And that Dean learned about how important the natural order is to Death.  

yes but it wasn't as if he had to shoot her in the head. it wasn't as if he had to kill a healthy, living child in order for sam to live, he was just gathering her soul. as i said before i understand dean's feelings for helping other people and especially with family, but he understood the job when he put on that ring. he knew it would be hard. i'm not blaming him or mad at him, i just thought he would rebel for a different reason.  for something that wouldn't make me complain would be if tessa lead him to a school bus, and told him that everyone died on it in a drunken car accident. for myself, i would have taken the sick girl's soul, but i don't think i would stomach taking an entire school bus. but as i said that's just me.

i was slightly surprised and gently appreciated dean's speedy and literal face to face with death for some sort of deal with It, which is why him falling flat on his face so soon disappointed me, and death giving sam his soul anyway made me feel cheated of my time watching the entire episode. it just doesn't feel satisfactory for me.