All-Season Discussion

[justmehere]

I've just started a full-series rewatch to get ready for January's final season and thought it might be good to have a place to discuss the whole thing.

 

So far, I've just watched the first episode, but wow, it still knocks me over. What an introduction to a character. I love the first shot of the whole thing, from the back, overlooking the pool. Even there, we know a lot about Raylan. He's in a cheap suit, in a tropical location, wearing a cowboy hat. He really doesn't belong! Then in about the first two minutes, through the interaction with Tommy Bucks, it's clear that he's basically fearless and certainly means what he says.

 

Such amazing dialog throughout (with perhaps the exception of repeating "gun thug" too many times). I love how "We dug coal together" defines a whole relationship, and there's nothing else needed. Naturally, the scenes between Raylan and Boyd are absolute gold.

 

One thing I don't remember catching before was how sincere Raylan was in that statement about digging coal. He admits that they weren't best buddies, but he doesn't have any animosity toward Boyd. Then, in an instant -- I guess because Boyd became a criminal -- there's no mercy, and that never lets up. You can tell how well they really do know each other during the conversation in the church, but Raylan is just locked on his impression. The one concession: he is still sorry for shooting Boyd because, after all, they dug coal together. Amazing.

 

Such great introductions to all the characters. I forgot how light and breezy Ava used to be. Even after being beaten and shooting her husband... or maybe because she shot him and was free of him. It makes me sad how far she fell.

 

I remember being kind of disappointed by the next few episodes; they weren't terrible, but they weren't as good. They made such a wise decision in keeping Boyd. To my mind -- and I'll have to see if this holds up -- season 1 didn't really get good again until he came back in the picture.

 

Anyone else rewatching the series before January?  ETA: Guess not! ;-)

Edited November 4, 2014 by justmehere

[mattie0808]

I really, really want to before the last season, though I guess that doesn't help much for conversation. ;) My father started watching from the get go, and expended no small amount of energy trying to get me to watch. It wasn't something I'd ever have thought of as my kind of thing, so it took me a minute to get on board, and I watched the early episodes I missed in something of a haphazard way. It'd be good to watch straight through, and now I'm the one trying to convince my dad!

 

In my mind, Ava has to be the character that's changed the most over the course of the series (and that's on a show with psycho-rocket-launching-racist turned born-again-preacher turned down-on-his-luck-coal-miner turned always-desperately-hustling-wannabe-drug-kingpin Boyd, lol). Somehow, and I'll credit WG with like 99% of this, Boyd always seems to have a core to me that Ava, who is more lost to me in some ways, didn't fully hang on to.

Edited November 5, 2014 by mattie0808

[justmehere]

I really, really want to before the last season, though I guess that doesn't help much for conversation. ;) My father started watching from the get go, and expended no small amount of energy trying to get me to watch. It wasn't something I'd ever have thought of as my kind of thing, so it took me a minute to get on board, and I watched the early episodes I missed in something of a haphazard way. It'd be good to watch straight through, and now I'm the one trying to convince my dad!

 

In my mind, Ava has to be the character that's changed the most over the course of the series (and that's on a show with psycho-rocket-launching-racist turned born-again-preacher turned down-on-his-luck-coal-miner turned always-desperately-hustling-wannabe-drug-kingpin Boyd, lol). Somehow, and I'll credit WG with like 99% of this, Boyd always seems to have a core to me that Ava, who is more lost to me in some ways, didn't fully hang on to.

 

Perfect description of Boyd, and I agree, he has a core that remains the same, no matter what he's turning it toward. He survives by changing his outer "costume" but remains basically the same inside. I kind of like Ava and Boyd together, but I don't like what it's done to her.

 

I've watched through "The Lord of War and Thunder" now, which brings up a couple of things. Sticking with Ava for a moment -- she even made Raylan kind of playful for a short while. The way he so completely shut her out later was cruel. If Wynona is the love of his live, fine, but he more or less started treating Ava like a criminal before she became one. No doubt, it had at least some part in her opening to Boyd. He at least loved her. I won't say he seduced her into being a criminal because, as I recall, he kept trying to keep her out of it. That's on her, but he is who he is, and to accept him, she fell in multiple ways.

 

Of course, then there's Arlo, another character introduced so spectacularly. And Aunt Helen! Another woman paying the price for loving the wrong person. But the daddy issues at the core... up to this point, Raylan has had an "I don't give a shit" attitude that seems pretty harsh, but it makes more sense in this episode. What I'd forgotten was that Helen framed Arlo's behavior as something childish -- trying to get his son's attention so Raylan will spend time with him (and to an extent, Raylan gives in to him, grudgingly, in the hospital). Arlo is like a two-year-old throwing a tantrum -- he wants his way no matter what he's done. But Raylan's very existence seems to always point out that he (Arlo) failed as a father, and so he punishes Raylan for it and blames Raylan for not loving him anyway. That never really changed, given that he tried to end Raylan's existence so he could start over with Boyd as a surrogate, and his deathbed obstinance when Raylan wanted some sign of love from him. (I know I'm forgetting Frances in the mix, but I can't remember much at this point; he blamed Raylan there too, I think).

 

Ah, and now it seems like Raylan's poor treatment of Ava possibly mirrors Arlo. Raylan treated Ava like crap and he knows it but can't face it, so he treats her like more crap. Then she became a criminal, and so he had an excuse. I'm very interested to see their dynamic in this last season with her as an informant. I loved when he tried to pull influence with her (I forget the season and the scenario), and she called him out on all of it. He knew she was right.

 

Sigh. My Blu Ray died -- only 4 years old. Can't afford another at the moment, so re-watching is on hold.

Edited November 7, 2014 by justmehere

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Such amazing dialog throughout

I really think this show has the best dialogue on television.  Very true to Elmore Leonard, famous for his dialogue.   Also Leonardesque is that everything, but everything, turns on who these characters actually are as people, which is established very early on.  Even when there are surprise twists you understand that the characters made the decisions they did because of the people they are.  I suppose it goes without saying that this is almost unheard of on television.

[Princess Sparkle]

I just started watching the show last month, since it was streaming on Amazon Prime, and I have blasted my way through the series.  I just had to pop in and say that I'm in the middle of season four and I  completely alone on my couch, stood up and cheered when Boyd outwitted those assholes from Clover Hill.  The episode before, my heart actually sank for him when he was sitting on the couch listening to them make him feel like the trash they thought he was (and that he was so worried about being seen as), and so I freaking loved that it took him less than 24 hours to rectify the situation.

 

And all credit to Walton Goggins that I'm cheering for a murderous criminal.  Out of all the good performances on the show, he continually shines.  

 

I don't know what took me so long to get into the show.  I vaguely remember watching a first season episode in 2010 and not getting that into it, so I gave up on it, but looking back, I don't think it was the pilot.  I'm glad I decided to give it a second shot, because it's quickly shot it's way into one of my favorite shows.  

[ratgirlagogo]

 

And all credit to Walton Goggins that I'm cheering for a murderous criminal.  Out of all the good performances on the show, he continually shines.

Agreed. Not gonna  lie, I do find Timothy Olyphant just smoking fucking hot, but Walton Goggins has the role of a lifetime on this show.

[mledawn]

I had never seen Game of Thrones until last year, and RAGED at the Emmys when Goggins was robbed. But then I saw GoT and am on board with Dinklage winning all the things. It's a total shame Goggins has to go head-to-head with Dinklage in that category because Boyd is an amazing character thanks to him.

[Latecomer]

I always felt that as soon as Ava admitted that she'd always be at home in Kentucky, that was it for her & Raylan. He wears the hat, but he rejected Harlan, whereas Boyd & Ava didn't. We feel like Ava has when she shoots Bowman Crowder, but season 2 nicely parallels her with Mags & Helen, taking care of things herself.

 

Walton Goggins is fantastic, but Raymond J Barry, Damon Herriman & Margo Martindale have also made their characters so memorable. Everyone (rightly) lauds The Wire for giving even passing characters an arc & you can see it in Justified too - like the guy who runs the mobile clinic/meth lab in season 4 who loves his mother & ends up on a landmine. Some, like the vet talking to Arlo in the bar or the man with the black lung who murders for Boyd highlight the bigger themes with only a few scenes.

 

Watching Raylan & Boyd struggle with the legacies of their fathers & their town has been riveting, & it feels right to end it where it all began. My only worry is that Tim is going to turn out to be more Raylan than Raylan.

[Princess Sparkle]

Agreed. Not gonna  lie, I do find Timothy Olyphant just smoking fucking hot, but Walton Goggins has the role of a lifetime on this show.

I mentioned this in the TV crushes thread, but while Timothy Olyphant is just sex on a stick and Jacob Pitts is a dryly funny, really good-looking man, somehow Walton Goggins just has charisma for DAYS in as Boyd, which makes him really fucking sexy in this role.  Not hot, but sexy.  

 

I mean, I like the show for many reasons, but (shallowly) the icing on the cake is that there are some really, really good looking men on it.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Princess Sparkle

[Clawdette]

Since Justified won't hit the magical 100 episode threshold, is there any hope that it will enter syndication?  I know I can stream on Amazon but I'd like to happen across it on cable from time-to-time. 

[keepwalking]

Most of the men on the show are delicious! I did have a slight crush on Jimmy, too. I will agree that Goggins has charisma as Boyd. I would not find him attractive if I saw him on the street, but he does have that extra something that makes him interesting/attractive.

[Clarity]

I think what makes this the show I wait for are the strong leads.  Boyd and Ava may be my all-time favourite tv couple.

[Febgirl]

I'm in the midst of re-watching Season 3.  I think it may be my favorite of the five, with Season 2 being a close second.

 I am Team Boyd all the way. Walton Goggins is so damned good. I could listen to him talk in his "Boyd" voice all day. And, while not conventionally handsome like Timothy Olyphant, I find him very, very attractive.

[metalchik]

I watched the whole season for the first time through out the month of December and am anxiously awaiting the new episode.

 

Love this show and I have to agree with the others about Timothy Olyphant being "sex on a stick"  (what a great description for him!) but I do love me some Walt Goggins.  I find him incredibly sexy. And whoever said they had a crush on Johnny....so did I girl...so did I.  You can't beat a show that has lots of good eye candy.  

[paramitch]

It's wonderful to chime in here with so many others who love this amazing show.

 

My favorite things about "Justified" through the years are the things that remain so consistent with it, and that I think are at the heart of its richness:

 

• The gorgeous, clever and humorous dialogue with that Elmore Leonard touch
• The rich characters. Everyone, good, evil or grayscale seems real, memorable and even understandable.
• The setting and insistent pull of Kentucky and Harlan on Raylan. I come from a backwoods area of NE Florida, and to this day I both loathe and love that place. I love the way Raylan is haunted by it, he knows it, he hates it -- but he also understands it.
• The complex relationship between Boyd and Raylan. These two men may eventually be each other's undoing, but I also think there is a real love and brotherhood at the core of the sentence, "We dug coal together." And at the end of Season 1, when Boyd cries out, "Raylan, I think you may be the only friend I have in this world," it breaks my heart because yes, Boyd is a killer and a liar, but I think some part of him will always still believe that. 
• The too-often underutilized team of U.S. Marshals, led by the wonderful Art. I also love Tim and Rachel, and feel they were best integrated into the story in Season 4 (one of the many reasons it's one of my favorites)

 

Meanwhile, while I never really loved Winona (and thought she was pretty boneheaded more than once), I did believe her relationship with Raylan, and I understood why she would leave, and why she'd come back as well.

 

I also like and empathize to a degree with Ava (actually, much more than Winona, despite the fact that Ava definitely went to the dark side) -- and I really think Joelle Carter is often underrated for her acting, which is restrained yet poignant. To me, Ava has always been about self-preservation -- the thing that has kept her alive, but which also sent her over to the criminal side. I also love her accent (which is pretty genuine to this Southern girl) and I could listen to her and Boyd drawl to each other in those honeyed voices all day long. 

 

I think Ava's been pretty consistent -- I think she has always been out for herself, but then Boyd entered the picture at the right time and showed real growth. I found their relationship really powerful, so the end of Season 5 broke my heart a little. 

 

Season 5 was the weakest for me by far -- I still enjoyed it, for the most part, and I understood in retrospect many of the decisions the storytellers made, but I think they were so busy trying to get Ava and Raylan to that meeting on the bridge that they didn't explore other, leaner options. I understand why Ava doesn't want to go back to prison, but did we have to see a whole season of her in jail? I didn't hate it, but I don't think so. I also thought the characterization of the relationship of Boyd to Ava was not always consistent -- at the end of 5, he's painted as betraying her so that now she is free to betray him. Yet I didn't necessarily see that. In fact, we saw Boyd go absolute raving mad more than once when he tried to free Ava or simply when he was kept from seeing her.

 

There were some good episodes last season, but my main beef with it was, of course, the freaking brutal, wearying, stupid-ass Crowes, and often at the expense of really interesting and rich characters like the Russian wife who flirted with Boyd, Wynn Duffy, Johnny, etc. I also felt the violence last season was a bit jarringly over the top -- it was more constant than it's ever been.

 

But -- I'm excited about Season 6, and I did really enjoy where it puts us as viewers. I'm really hoping Mary Steenburgen's character will be back, since I thought she was absolutely fascinating almost instantly, and she had a nice, sly appreciation for how smart Boyd really is right away.

 

Last but not least, one of the things I will miss about this show is the sheer charisma of Timothy Olyphant and Walton Goggins. I think Olyphant is superb, but for sheer presence onscreen, to me Goggins is untouchable. The only thing for me that comes close to Goggins here is Ian McShane in "Deadwood."  He's is simply extraordinary, and I agree with those who think he's really attractive (and I love his voice beyond the telling).  He's also supposed to be an absolutely terrifically nice person, and the old boards at TWOP included many really lovely anecdotes from people who had met him.

[Princess Sparkle]

I finally just finished Season 5 in anticipation for the final season starting tonight (thanks again to Inquisitionst for the heads up that it was streaming on Amazon Prime).  While I didn't love Season 5, it was still far and away better than most of the stuff I watched on tv within the past year.  There's a real part of me that's disappointed that I got into this show so late; I like that I could blast through all the seasons, but I'm so sad I only have one more to watch.  

 

I just have to say, the one thing that bothered me in season 5 was how under utilized Wood and Steve Harris were.  You have Avon Barksdale and Eugene Young, and you use them that sparingly?  I would've loved more of them and less of Michael Rappaport; they just light up the screen.  I could watch an entire hour of their characters plus Boyd just interacting with each other.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Princess Sparkle

[Inquisitionist]

This show is usually so great about casting, but they missed the boat entirely with Michael Rappaport. 

[Febgirl]

This show is usually so great about casting, but they missed the boat entirely with Michael Rappaport. 

Agreed- I found him completely unconvincing and off-putting. Especially when compared to how great Jeremy Davies is as Dickie Bennett, and how off the rails good  Neil Mc Donough was as Quarles.

 I wonder which Boyd we'll be seeing in Season 6?  Not too long now,  and I can't wait. Will be hoisting a glass of Maker's  for tonight's premiere. ( Pappy's a bit too rich for my blood).

[Princess Sparkle]

This show is usually so great about casting, but they missed the boat entirely with Michael Rappaport. 

And I like him normally, but something just didn't work for me - I can't tell if it was the character period I didn't like, or if it was the way he played it.  But it never really gelled for me that he was this big imposing figure that no one would've killed a long time ago.

[leighdear]

I love how "We dug coal together" defines a whole relationship

Anytime I go out with a particular friend of mine from high school, that's the way we introduce each other to people we don't know, and immediately crack up.  We're both huge fans, and that line is our "thing".....

[Inquisitionist]

I've recently rewatched seasons 2 and 4, which are generally acknowledged to be Justified's best runs.  As formidable as Mags Bennett and her clan were, I liked season 4 just a smidge better.  The season-long mystery about Drew Thompson was very clever and dovetailed nicely with several sub-plots, including Boyd and the snake-charming preacher, Raylan and the bartender, Ellen May's search for redemption, and Boyd's dream of a respectable suburban life.  I generally preferred these stories to S2's sub-plot about Winona taking money from lock-up.  The new characters, including Nicky Augustine, Colton Rhodes, and heck, even Constable Bob, were well-used, and I enjoyed the linkages back to characters we'd seen before, such as Limehouse.  The final episode really raised the stakes for Raylan and blew me away.  What an extremely satisfying stretch of 13 episodes!

[spaceytraci1208]

Finishing up season 1 and I just had a revelation; Arlo Givens is Cotton Hill (King of The Hill ) with shins

[cassandle]

I've recently rewatched seasons 2 and 4, which are generally acknowledged to be Justified's best runs.  As formidable as Mags Bennett and her clan were, I liked season 4 just a smidge better.  The season-long mystery about Drew Thompson was very clever and dovetailed nicely with several sub-plots, including Boyd and the snake-charming preacher, Raylan and the bartender, Ellen May's search for redemption, and Boyd's dream of a respectable suburban life.  I generally preferred these stories to S2's sub-plot about Winona taking money from lock-up.  The new characters, including Nicky Augustine, Colton Rhodes, and heck, even Constable Bob, were well-used, and I enjoyed the linkages back to characters we'd seen before, such as Limehouse.  The final episode really raised the stakes for Raylan and blew me away.  What an extremely satisfying stretch of 13 episodes!

 

I've said it a dozen times on these threads but Season 4 has always been my favorite.  A lot of that has to do with Tim getting his own story line but the mystery was a lot of fun.  I didn't have a clue of who Drew Thompson was until they came right out and said it and I LOVED that choice (even though it's two years old I don't want to spoil it for people who are catching up because it was a great reveal)--I always liked 

Jim Beaver as Shelby and on his other roles in Deadwood and Supernatural so it was nice to see him in so many episodes.

 Great season.

 

I started rewatching Season 1 and in the very second episode, when Raylan is transporting Dewey, he threatens to put him in the trunk.  I didn't realize that was a running gag from the very start but that threat (and when he actually carries it out) pleases me to no end.  If I could put everyone I think talks to much into the trunk of a car I would be a much happier person.

[Captanne]

I just started watching two weeks ago and am already finishing up Series Three.  Yeah, binge.  Don't judge.

 

I'm enjoying this tremendously -- I went to Vanderbilt and his dig on Vandy girls was hilarious if random.

 

My migration to Justified this late in the game is that I loved Goggins as Venus in Sons of Anarchy which ended this past fall.  So, the curiosity led to Justified.  Isn't he amazing?  Boyd is a bit of a one trick pony (try, fail, try, fail, try, scrape by) but Goggins keeps him interesting.  The best line so far was from Raylan to Ava at the bar, "You know what he is, right?  You know?"  That triangle is fascinating.

 

Timothy Olyphant couldn't possibly be better cast.  Hat's off (a ten-gallon one) to the casting director.  

Edited February 17, 2015 by Captanne

[Captanne]

More to add -- I just watched a 12 minute interview between Goggins and Olyphant (no idea how old it is/was) -- but, yes, TO is funny.  What I noticed, in particular, is that TO produces the show.  So -- I don't know how much to credit the mythical casting director.  I guess TO saw this as a vehicle for himself?  Well done, sir.  Good eye.

 

He mentions his role in Deadwood which, as much as I like Justified, I did NOT like.  I am in the minority on that.  For a while, there were a series of shows whose production values rendered them almost impossible for me to keep clear in my head -- could be that I have finally started using closed captioning and that has helped immensely.  But, Deadwood, for me, was just a random bunch of characters cursing a lot and none I could invest in.  (Carnivale, Ripper Street, Copper, Whitechapel, to name a few.  These, for me, were a blur of sepia toned, dusty, period-piece anonymous ensembles bouncing around a sound stage.)

 

I am not adverse to violence and cursing -- I loved Sons of Anarchy, frex.  But Deadwood left me cold.

 

ETA:  I also don't see any sexual tension between Boyd and Raylan for a couple of reasons -- they are both clearly tied to women sexually and I just don't "feel" it between Goggins and Olyphant.  That they think it's there for the entire audience is adorable.  But, I, for one, don't need it.  The dynamic between the two characters is fascinating enough without a bromance.

 

Edited:  Because "curing" and "cursing" are two different things.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Captanne

[biakbiak]

What I noticed, in particular, is that TO produces the show. So -- I don't know how much to credit the mythical casting director. I guess TO saw this as a vehicle for himself? Well done, sir. Good eye.

Credit goes to Yost and casting, TO only became a producer in season 2. It is very common for someone who is lead in a show to then negotiate a producer credit. Sometimes they then become fairly involved as TO is but other times it's just a credit that gives them more money and they are hands off. Edited February 17, 2015 by biakbiak

[Captanne]

Thanks!  I know nothing about that process.

[cassandle]

And apparently TO is VERY involved in the writing too.  I've been watching the commentary for season 3 and 4 and there's a lot of talk about how he will rewrite scenes to make them more Elmore-Leonard-like--and not just Raylan's scenes but more often than not it's other characters he's punching up.  He and Goggins are super protective of their characters.

[Inquisitionist]

How many commentary tracks and other extras are on the DVDs?  So far, I've streamed prior episodes at amazon.com, but if the DVDs have lots of extra goodies, I'd consider buying them.

[cassandle]

I lent out (and never got back) my Season 1 DVDs and I haven't bothered to get Season 5 so I'm not sure about those.  Season 2 has deleted scenes, a gag reel, an "on the set" short, and a short about the Bennetts but no commentary.  Seasons 3 and 4 have commentary for most of the episodes but not all (9 episodes on S3 and 10 on S4) and the same sort of set tours and other behind the scene shorts and gag reels.  The commentary for those usually have writers and directors and oftentimes an actor (Timothy Olyphant does a couple and Walton Goggins, Patton Oswald, Jere Burns, Joelle Carter…no Jacob Pitts though (unless he's on S5 commentary)).

 

I'm a giant commentary-watching nerd so even though I already had all of S4 (my favorite season) on iTunes I still bought the DVDs for the commentary--the best one IMO was on "Decoy" with TO and Patton Oswald together.  

[ratgirlagogo]

 

My migration to Justified this late in the game is that I loved Goggins as Venus in Sons of Anarchy which ended this past fall.  So, the curiosity led to Justified.  Isn't he amazing?

Yes, he is amazing.  If you never saw him on The Shield I recommend that as your next binge watch.

[Captanne]

I may do that but my next move is rewatching Deadwood because it did absolutely nothing for me back in the day.  Now, with a face other than Ian MacShane's to recognize and the modern (to me) miracle of closed captioning, maybe I'll understand it.

 

Fortunately, I swear as much as they do in Deadwood so I'll feel right at home on that count.

[spaceytraci1208]

I may do that but my next move is rewatching Deadwood because it did absolutely nothing for me back in the day. Now, with a face other than Ian MacShane's to recognize and the modern (to me) miracle of closed captioning, maybe I'll understand it.

Fortunately, I swear as much as they do in Deadwood so I'll feel right at home on that count.

I just started Deadwood today! I wasn't sold on the first episode, but I'm digging it as I continue :)

[Captanne]

Yeah, for me Deadwood ='ed Overrated.  I couldn't keep the characters straight so I never emotionally invested in any of them.  I think part of it was the audio.  Closed captioning should help this time 'round.

[paramitch]

My main problem with Rapaport's casting (and I normally like him a lot) was that somehow his character never really had gravitas to me. He seemed pinched and mean and commonplace, and while his accent work didn't bother me as much as some, it didn't have the richness of the other characters' accents and instead felt like a standard attempt at a generic "Southern Redneck" accent. And to me that was all wrong here -- I'm from the South and lived everywhere from Florida/Georgia to Texas, and for me the Kentucky accents are more singsong and musical, like you hear in Savannah, versus pinched (which I tend to think of as more like you'd hear in Texas or Arkansas). And Rapaport's character lacked the presence, menace and smarts he needed for me to take him seriously.

 

Some people did surprise me pleasantly by the end of Season 5. I thought it was easily the best work I've ever seen Alicia Witt do, for instance, and I actually came to like and care about her character (who also had some of the wit and quickness I enjoy from "Justified" criminals and that Season 5 badly needed), and I also really liked the kid who played Kendal Crowe (Jacob Lofland). I always love John Kapelos, and also thought it was a shame Edi Gathegi quit the show, as he had a lot of presence as Jean-Baptiste. And it was fantastic to see Alan Tudyk, too.

 

But some characters just didn't work for me at all -- most of the Crowes and their brutal, banal thieves' gallery, for instance -- and so often it just felt like the best characters were one-offs (the Canadian druglords, Alan Tudyk, etc.) while the tedious ones stuck around. And I normally love Amy Smart, but her character felt clumsily written to me here. I also felt like Boyd's storyline was just terrible last season -- he came across as inept and gullible many times, and I found Ava's prison stint stretched far beyond necessity. And I was really frustrated by the constantly shifting locales (Detroit, Mexico, etc.) as I felt they weakened the story, took away its Kentucky flavor, and also led directly to the lack of the wonderful supporting characters at Raylan's office (too little Tim and Rachel).

 

Captanne, I'll be interested to see how your "Deadwood" revisit goes. I didn't like "Deadwood" back in the day while it was actually airing -- the language was so jarring and the world so over the top and dark that I couldn't stay with it.

 

Then I gave it another shot about 3 months ago, and fell head over heels. I felt like I finally got it. I now agree with those who found it magnificent and even Shakespearean. I loved it, especially its unexpected richness and complex characters. By the time I got to season 3, I was savoring the final episodes like a fine vintage, trying to make it last because it was going to end.

 

The cool thing is, I only revisited it because of "Justified!" I remembered that Olyphant was in it, along with a ton of other actors I really love (John Hawkes, Paula Malcolmson, Brad Dourif, Kim Dickens, Garrett Dillahunt), and decided to give it another shot. I'm very glad I did. I loved it.

[Captanne]

Brad Dourif is one of "mine" since he was evil in William Peter Blatty's "Legion".  I'll be sure to watch for him in Deadwood and I'll be sure to report back.  I have a feeling I'll have an experience similar to yours.  No promises, though.  

[paramitch]

I agree on Dourif, I think he's brilliant, and I loved his character on "Deadwood" so I'm interested to see what you think. I was also delighted that he (for a rarity) got to play a good person, not one of his usual villains. Come to think of it, he would've been an awesome guest star on "Justified," darn it. (I even went to IMDb to see if he'd ever appeared and I'd forgotten it.)

 

I hate that this is the final season! I'm not ready for the show to end.

[Captanne]

I'm in Season 5 and enjoying it.  Most of my shows implode in season 4 so this is a real treat.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I hate that this is the final season! I'm not ready for the show to end.

Seconded.

[Captanne]

OT:  Am now watching Deadwood.  I watched it when it was new and couldn't keep anyone straight.  The show totally lost me.  What I do remember is the lead actor and those fucking EYES.  So, imagine my surprise when I go back to watch it and really recognize our Raylan Givens for the first time?  WOW.

So, I have to say the subtitles do make all the difference and I'm enjoying it.  Particularly the cast with actors I've "met" since it first aired -- like Bill's sidekick who was also the sidekick in Sons of Anarchy.  Also, I'd forgotten Sebastian from Bladerunner.

Ricky Jay, as subtly terrifying as he always is, is a joy anytime, anywhere.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Ricky Jay, as subtly terrifying as he always is, is a joy anytime, anywhere.

He is wonderful on every level.

[Deanie87]

After this past episode, my husband wondered if Katherine and Wynn Duffy were going to hook up, but isn't he gay? I recall there being a guy tied up in a back bedroom, but that was by Quarles, correct? Why do I think that Wynn is gay?

Can anyone help me with this? LOL!

[Febgirl]

I don't think Wynn Duffy's sexuality was ever mentioned.   I happen to think he's just "metrosexual", but I could be wrong.

[Deanie87]

I think I must be confusing him with Quarles. I know that it was Quarles who had the guy in the back room, but for some reason I thought that Wynn had a kind of hook up with a guy around that time.

[Captanne]

I assumed Duffy is gay since he keeps that lovable doofus around.

[marys1000]

I am a couple of episodes into S5.  Season 4 is my favorite so far.   

 

I love this show no doubt.  I loved that there was a relationship btw Raylon and Boyd in S1 and after.  But at this point I see it as pretty frayed and bankrupt and that makes me really sad.  Raylan seems to be getting darker.  Boyd's behavior is worse but somehow it does not seem to diminish him as much? 

 

There are so many themes and scenes that I could talk about.  I'll choose this one for now. 

 

When Boyd breaks into the house that he and Ava looked at to buy.  Growing up always feeling like less.  Finally having someone that understands that, understands you, loves you and the two of you are....were.....  

Wow, that was amazing writing. 

 

I kind of wondered why someone like Mags, or Limehouse or other drug runners all over, sometimes stay in their neighborhoods, their old houses even though they could afford to leave. I suppose part of it is where their market is.  But I think some of them sense it might not work emotionally.    Sometimes that move into the big house backfires on you and and you still feel like less, like you don't belong. Even worse now you don't belong where you're from.   I guess I sort of feel like Boyd was spared something.  Actually Ava's farm house looks extremely nice compared to what I've seen in West Virginia and even without the comparison it looks nice!

Edited March 24, 2015 by marys1000

[Motown]

Ok so they have Ava working for the Marshalls so she can keep herself out of prison, but therein lies my question.  She was originally arrested for murder, but Boyd ruined that by killing the people that made the case and she was going to be released.  Next the guard faked like she had stabbed him, and she went to prison for that.  Later though he recanted his statement, and the Marshalls know about that.  My  question is what charge are the Marshalls holding against her to make her cooperate?  She was already cleared of the murder, and they know the guard faked his stabbing, so what do they have on her to make her a CI?  They keep saying she is going to go back to prison to face her charge, but what charge are they talking about?  From what I see she has been cleared of everything??? 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Motown

[Yemayah]

Motown, this was addressed in some detail on the S6E5 Sounding thread.  The writers may not think so, but this whole Ava prison plot, which was shaky to begin with, does not make any sense if scrutinized too closely, IMO. Their goal is to move the action along- and they have been successful in that respect because most would not look too closely.    I can only offer why it bothers me so much it has undermined my enjoyment of the entire season.  I have been so busy packing for a move cross country that I have not been back on this site in a while to add more thoughts on the matter.

 

The most significant fact is that Ava was arrested on state or local charges initially.  Just as she was on the way to being released on bail, she was sent to state prison on state charges for assaulting a corrections officer, Fekus.  The state prosecutor- not the Marshals/feds/AUSA Vazquez-  decides the charge(s), which are adjudicated in the state system before a state judge, and whether or not she goes to jail.  If Ava was released, it was with the consent of the state prosecutor, who may have agreed with the Marshals that it was in the interest of the state and the feds to bring down Boyd Crowder and that Ava's life was in such danger that she should be released, and a judge has to approve.  If she does not fulfill her agreement with the Marshals, then the state prosecutor may have said that she must be returned to state custody while this case goes through the courts. After all, she could have been kept in a prisoner-witness protection unit within the system. 

 

Here's the problem:  there are federal guidelines for a CI agreement, including indicating any past relationships with any of the parties involved (ie, Raylan and Ava's past sexual relationship).  And if Fekus did not actually recant, but the Marshals engaged with him and used him in a ruse to throw off Boyd, et al, then they have in effect 'tampered' with a witness who happens to be the main witness against their CI.  If the feds had reason/evidence to believe that Fekus lied but did not inform the state prosecutor, then woe be unto them.  If Vazquez had not revealed that he has compromising photos of RG/Ava, then woe unto him.  OK, so the state and Fekus' counsel (he'd better have had one) gave the Marshal's their blessing:  this case going through the system is a prosecutor's nightmare, whether or not Fekus recanted. 

 

Ava's lawyer should know better. She has/had the upper hand (if she survived prison) and stood to benefit from multiple lawsuits (after last nights episode, that is all moot). The Fekus claims could have been disproved by the most basic forensic investigation.  If that was not done, only a crazy prosecutor would bring that hot mess before a judge or jury.

 

Worse yet, in last nights ep, Raylan reminds Ava that she was "sentenced.." But Ava has been neither tried nor convicted. 

 

Sloppy plotting (it all could have been so much better and more effective). Everytime Raylan and Vazquez threaten her with prison, I just roll my eyes.

[Motown]

Well from what I THOUGHT I understood Eva wasn't getting bailed out for her original murder charge, Boyd murdered someone on the outside that made the case fall apart and the charge was dismissed.  She was scheduled to be released, so that charge is gone.  The next charge was the assault on a corrections officer, but later on the guard admitted he lied and lost his job because of it.  So what is the charge they are holding over her?  The original murder charge was dismissed, and the assault charge was proven to be wrong so that was dismissed, but now she is still going to prison if she doesn't cooperate?

[ChipBach]

Reposted from another thread:

 

I'm also pretty sure that Ava would not be sent to "prison" if she had not yet been found guilty of a crime.  I would imagine she would have been remanded to a county jail until such a time she could be tried.

She was not tried in either case, and the fact that the prison guard ran out along with the fact that the cameras were turned off would make it a tough case for Ava to be found guilty of an assault with no apparent motive.  I also think the guard made enough comments about his fraud that the marshals could actually act as witnesses on Ava's behalf...

Now - the body she was found with did not prove her guilt in the murder of dipshit.  It proved she stole his remains.  Big difference and she would have probably gotten off with a few months in county lock-up, not state prison.