S08.E10: In The Forest Of The Night

[ganesh]

I thought he was on Trenzalore for only 300 years? Though, the point is still the same.

[elle]

I mean, heck, the Hartnell era had no budget or effects and they still managed to imagine a completely new environment for each new adventure, exploring the past, the future, alien worlds, with relationships between the characters that evolved as they went along. It isn't that hard. You just have to be prepared to cut ties with present-day Earth and the companion's home life - and it is more than possible to develop a character without having them go home after every adventure! Necessary, in fact, at this point, because that tie is holding all the characters back this season.

It seems to me that quite often "no/little budget" = "more creativity and storytelling" whereas the reverse "big budget" produces "special effects in place of storytelling".  For example, compare Star Trek to Enterprise.

[tv-talk]

For example, compare Star Trek to Enterprise.

 

 

On the other hand DS9 had some great, multi-season story arcs while always maintaining "one off" episodes that stand alone and dont require re-writing later to justify why something happened i.e. 'must be because of Trenzalore even though no one is saying that on the show'

 

What you said actually made me realize something worse....12 feels like Enterprise in a 'last gasp' sort of sense. ;-(

 

It's just not working so far and the pressure is going to continually mount about the show possibly being trouble, is this it, blah blah. It really does remind of Enterprise in that sense, a show with a glorious history and legions of fans but in its current incarnation is off the rails and needs help!

[ketose]

On the other hand DS9 had some great, multi-season story arcs while always maintaining "one off" episodes that stand alone and dont require re-writing later to justify why something happened i.e. 'must be because of Trenzalore even though no one is saying that on the show'

 

What you said actually made me realize something worse....12 feels like Enterprise in a 'last gasp' sort of sense. ;-(

 

It's just not working so far and the pressure is going to continually mount about the show possibly being trouble, is this it, blah blah. It really does remind of Enterprise in that sense, a show with a glorious history and legions of fans but in its current incarnation is off the rails and needs help!

I'd say NuWHo is almost like the JJ Abrams reboot. Unbelievable amounts of money made it look better, but the story did more to serve the special effects.

[HauntedBathroom]

I thought it was okay. Quite nice in some parts and the kids were alright but we've had better though this series.

I wish Clara would just set both the Doctor and Danny straight as well. This lying to both of them is pointless.

Forest looked beautiful, nice use of wolves and tigers too.

Liked Maebh as well, character wise.

The Missy stuff was okay, at least the finale starts now, 7/10

 

 

I think darkestboy has it right.

Edited October 28, 2014 by HauntedBathroom

[elle]

 

On the other hand DS9 had some great, multi-season story arcs while always maintaining "one off" episodes that stand alone and dont require re-writing later to justify why something happened i.e. 'must be because of Trenzalore even though no one is saying that on the show'

DS9 was closer to Bablyon 5 than it was to Star Trek, mmv.  Special effects did not overrule the logic of the story.

 

 

I'd say NuWHo is almost like the JJ Abrams reboot. Unbelievable amounts of money made it look better, but the story did more to serve the special effects.

That hit a nerve!  I begrudging watched the first movie and found that I really enjoyed it.  I refuse to acknowledge the second exists.  It is how I feel about "The Day of the Doctor" (great!) compared to "The Time of the Doctor" (never heard of it!) and this new season.

 

But in a universe where they exist, one can make a further connection that both the second NuST and Twelve not only threw death out of the equation of any adventure but also wasted the opportunity for some fine actors to show us why they are so loved. (Cumberbatch and Weller, Capaldi)

[random chance]

It seems to me that quite often "no/little budget" = "more creativity and storytelling" whereas the reverse "big budget" produces "special effects in place of storytelling".  For example, compare Star Trek to Enterprise.

I have often thought so myself. I think they believe that the more money they sink into special effects, the less compelling the story needs to be.  

 

What you said actually made me realize something worse....12 feels like Enterprise in a 'last gasp' sort of sense. ;-(

Ohhhh now that you mention it ... it really does.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I think they believe that the more money they sink into special effects, the less compelling the story needs to be.

It could be that the production staff's time is maxed out and putting more effort into special effects means taking time away from other things like script development.

[random chance]

It could be that the production staff's time is maxed out and putting more effort into special effects means taking time away from other things like script development.

I know nothing about creating a show, but to me that seems like putting so much time and effort into creating the frosting that you have to substitute rocks and straw for the part that was supposed to be cake.

Edited October 29, 2014 by random chance

[Llywela]

I know nothing about creating a show, but to me that seems like putting so much time and effort into creating the frosting that you have to substitute rocks and straw for the part that was supposed to be cake.

An excellent analogy!

[companionenvy]

Late to the party with a few disconnected thoughts:

 

- First, something I just honestly didn't get: there were, if I remember correctly, two references to the Doctor being "the last of his kind." But... he's not, and both he and Clara now know it. Gallifrey may not be accessible to him, but there are living Time Lords out there - that's how he got the spanking new set of regenerations. 

 

- The thing with Annabelle coming back was so bizarre that I assumed we would return to it later. That can't possibly be the end of that story, can it? There was simply nothing in this episode to explain it. Maybe it has something to do with Missy; if Annabelle had died and Missy had taken her to "paradise," she might now be returning her for her own nefarious purposes.

 

- The scene with Clara telling the Doctor to leave by himself was maddening in part because it was so close to being a good scene. Take out the children and Clara's decision is genuinely moving, and a fascinating character moment. It also underscores last week's point of Clara becoming more like the Doctor; her actions here reminded me of nothing so much as Nine pretending he had found a solution in "The Parting of the Ways" in order to trick Rose into returning to the TARDIS so he could send her home. But Clara's logic in telling Twelve not to save the children -- and the fact that he goes along with it -- is horrifying. 

 

- To some extent, I felt the same way about the scene with Danny explaining why he wouldn't travel in the TARDIS; it was the outline of a good scene, but the specifics were nonsensical. There are a number of understandable reasons I can think of for Danny not wanting to travel with the Doctor. Maybe after being in mortal danger in the war, he's realized how precious life is and doesn't want to foolishly risk it. Maybe he still thinks the Doctor is a fundamentally dangerous, untrustworthy jerk. Maybe, after his experiences in Iraq or Afghanistan, he believes that the Doctor's interventions in other cultures and their conflicts is immoral. Maybe he has taken note of the fact that trouble seems to follow the Doctor, to the extent that a relationship with him might be dangerous not only for his companions, but for their loved ones (or students). 

 

What makes no sense is "There are wonders on Earth, so why do I need to see space?" I mean, there's a nice hiking trail by my apartment, too, but I'd still like to see the Grand Canyon. And again, the concept the show is playing with is an intriguing one, and one that they've exploited to good effect in the past. All the way back in the One era, our last sight of Ian and Barbara, who have chosen to return home, is them filled with delight at the ordinary pleasures of London. Jo Grant leaves the Doctor to get married, and the new series has acknowledged more explicitly the pathos of the fact that the "one adventure" the Doctor can never have is an ordinary life. But those are very, very different situations. Ian and Barbara are traveling with a Doctor who can't control the TARDIS, so if they don't take their chance to go home, they may never get back. As for Jo and others who leave the Doctor to pursue other things, it is true that if you NEVER stop traveling with the Doctor, you too risk becoming utterly alienated from the realities,responsibilities, and possibilities of life in your own world and time. Neither of these explain why going to see a solar flare and appreciating the human world are mutually exclusive, any more than traveling to Paris or Rome prevents you from enjoying a movie with your friends when you get back home.

[SnideAsides]

Pretty sure the people who write the scripts don't do the special effects though.

[ketose]

I can kind of understand Danny. Traveling with the Doctor isn't about seeing the wonders of the universe, it's usually about being in danger while seeing the wonders of the universe. Danny might be a recovering adrenaline junkie or he just had enough.

 

Obviously, almost anyone who watches Doctor Who would want to take a trip on the TARDIS. There are a lot of people in the rest of the world who would be too freaked out by such a thing.

 

I just don't know why he's interested in Clara. I suppose it doesn't matter, because we're going to find out Clara isn't real, kind of like that Amy Pond made of goo that was traveling with the Doctor for months.

[companionenvy]

 

I can kind of understand Danny. Traveling with the Doctor isn't about seeing the wonders of the universe, it's usually about being in danger while seeing the wonders of the universe. Danny might be a recovering adrenaline junkie or he just had enough.

 

You know, after what you said, I rewatched that scene, and I think you're right. My recollection of it was just that he said "there are wonders here." But he actually did start by saying that after risking his life in war, he realized what he almost lost and now wants to appreciate the life he has. And that strikes me as a rational response, although I still think the idea that he wouldn't take a  quick trip to see the solar flare is stretching the point a bit.

[elle]

 

although I still think the idea that he wouldn't take a  quick trip to see the solar flare is stretching the point a bit.

Considering that he doesn't trust the Doctor at all, this may not be as unreasonable as it first seems.

 

Of course, we all know just what could happen on "a quick trip" with the Doctor. ;0)

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I know nothing about creating a show, but to me that seems like putting so much time and effort into creating the frosting that you have to substitute rocks and straw for the part that was supposed to be cake.

True, but if your boss says you need to do it and you don't get more money/staffing, that's the kind of thing that happens. Just speculating, but the kind of brass who might say the show doesn't look sci-fi-enough so add more special effects may not know that much about creating a show either.

 

 

Pretty sure the people who write the scripts don't do the special effects though.

No, but there's an iterative process with someone up the line with broader responsibility so that kinks can be worked out.

[ganesh]

Obviously, almost anyone who watches Doctor Who would want to take a trip on the TARDIS. There are a lot of people in the rest of the world who would be too freaked out by such a thing.

 

My recollection of it was just that he said "there are wonders here." But he actually did start by saying that after risking his life in war, he realized what he almost lost and now wants to appreciate the life he has. And that strikes me as a rational response, although I still think the idea that he wouldn't take a  quick trip to see the solar flare is stretching the point a bit.

 

 

That's all legit, but given that we know nothing about "what he almost lost," however, he comes off as a bit boring. Saying, "we really need to make sure the kids get home safe right now, but we can always go back in time a couple of hours and watch it again," would be different. 

 

What I remember was, "No, I don't want to see the solar flare because I was a soldier." 

[Cruella]

I could barely watch for annoyance - both of these two who whine so much about putting children first are HORRIBLE teachers. They barely looked at children while they were walking through dangerous uncharted territory (Danny should go first and Clara the last with children inbetween, or the other way around), barely blinked, nor tried to get kids to safety when the statue gave a first crack, didn't count the children and didn't notice for a long time that one in a very small group was missing, then didn't seem particularly worried (especially Clara) that a little unstable scared child is lost in a unnatural forest. Both should lose their jobs at the very least - and yet I am sure that I'm supposed to think they are wonderful teachers. Danny Pink deserves a special medal for dragging entire class into dangerous uncharted territory from safety of Tardis. Oh and Clara barely cared when one of the boys was strangling the other. Clara Oswald, contributing to bullying since 20??. I actually can't stand children but stupidity and irresponsibility is even worse.

 

And no, it wasn't just shock obviously because Danny is a soldier and Clara's used to worse, and they found time for their annoying banter while they were supposed to be looking for a girl.

 

I was only curious as to what the hell happened with a girl's sister. Obviously the Earth wasn't going to die, etc.

 

Also, a little girl won't outrun a wolf (or a dog) even for couple of minutes. She'd be done when they jumped. It has nothing to do with a habit to hunt,  I could never  outrun our small puddle.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Cruella

[PWHCHCH]

Someone above mentioned that there are people in the world who would jump at the chance to go in the TARDIS while equally there are people who wouldn't.

I initially didn't believe that the later people existed but when I equated it to something else, I can believe it. I thought about the Stargate on the stargate franchise. Trusting an alien device to safely transport you to another world and having faith that it works every time you step through it is something a lot of people would not have.

I think the tardis can be the same. Sure there is a wonderful universe out there. But it's never safe nor guaranteed. So while I thought people not wanting a trip in the tardis were foolish, maybe it isn't so much.

[Llywela]

Someone above mentioned that there are people in the world who would jump at the chance to go in the TARDIS while equally there are people who wouldn't.

I initially didn't believe that the later people existed but when I equated it to something else, I can believe it. I thought about the Stargate on the stargate franchise. Trusting an alien device to safely transport you to another world and having faith that it works every time you step through it is something a lot of people would not have.

I think the tardis can be the same. Sure there is a wonderful universe out there. But it's never safe nor guaranteed. So while I thought people not wanting a trip in the tardis were foolish, maybe it isn't so much.

Having grown up on the classic era of the show, when the TARDIS couldn't be controlled properly, it's always been understandable to me - I was glad that the modern show made that point early on, with Rose being accidentally taken home a whole year after she left and having to live with the  consequences, and regularly landing somewhere different than intended. It's something that's been lost in recent years, when the Doctor's piloting has become so precise, and I do feel it's a shame to lose that natural source of tension. If the TARDIS isn't reliable, if the Doctor's piloting can't be relied on to be that precise, then there's automatic tension in the companion's choice whether to stay or go because they cannot guarantee getting home again without incident.

 

Perhaps that's why all the conflict this season has felt so contrived - it's had to be, because the Doctor has been landing the TARDIS on a sixpence, removing that element of doubt.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Having grown up on the classic era of the show, when the TARDIS couldn't be controlled properly, it's always been understandable to me - I was glad that the modern show made that point early on, with Rose being accidentally taken home a whole year after she left and having to live with the  consequences, and regularly landing somewhere different than intended.

Even before those landing errors, on Rose's first trip there's a scene where she realizes that she's somewhere completely alien and dependent on a guy she hardly knows to have any chance of getting back home. You can't blame someone for doubting how much they can trust the Doctor before agreeing to a trip. Even going on board is a risk (as Ian and Barbara found out a long time ago). It's the alien equivalent to getting into a windowless van with a stranger holding high-tech candy.

[Jordan27]

Magic trees.

However I did like how when the Doctor wanted to take them all on the TARDIS they all just wanted to go home

Go home to parents or go visit strange worlds in a space ship?  How many kids would choose to go home?  And Danny doesn't want adventures either?

 

Really?!?  Really?!?!?

[Jordan27]

Because the trees do keep us alive and we do need then and deforestation is a big part of what's going to kill us.

 

We have more trees than we did 100 years ago.  And nothing is going to kill us or the Earth.

 

This is the one situation where Doctor Who needs to be Doctor Who and deliver us all some much-needed science.

 

And that would be that so-called global warming or climate change is a bunch of politically motivated bunk.

 

And it's the Doctor.

I think Danny's desire to stay home and appreciate the wonders of the everyday world around him is totally valid, but I also think a desire to seek out the wonders of the universe is also a valid choice.  I feel like the sense of wonder this show is supposed to showcase has been seriously lacking.   The Tardis is a remarkable thing and should inspire awe, but I feel like the show doesn't remember that.

 

Yep, Danny's blasé attitude about Clara traveling the Universe with the Doctor or him actually joining them stretches credibility and pulls the show down.  I think his character is a lot more boring than Clara, who I actually like.  But, she has no chemistry with Danny and I have no idea why she would love him. 

 

Most of the companions on this show love travelling with the Doctor, but then at some point, it's time to move on.  But, they constantly have Clara questioning what she wants to do.  It gets in the way of fun adventures in the Tardis.

[truther]

 

And that would be that so-called global warming or climate change is a bunch of politically motivated bunk.

 

 

You are wrong.   

[Jordan27]

So far, no evidence than man is contributing to climate change.

 

I'm right and the libs are wrong, as usual.

[truther]

So far, no evidence than man is contributing to climate change.

 

I'm right and the libs are wrong, as usual.

You do realize that Doctor Who, and most contemporary science fiction, opposes your viewpoint with a passion?  Not just global warming -- which is not really in dispute -- but your entire attitude that complex societies can be reduced to partisan groupings of "us" vs "them"? 

Edited April 14, 2015 by truther

[Chip]

I just want to remind everyone that this is a topic about Doctor Who. Feel free to discuss the minutiae of the episode, but please keep the conversation civil and on-topic. If you find that your response is less about Doctor Who and more about something else, then please rethink before you post.