The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow: "I'm Not A Stranger to Complications"

[formerlyfreedom]

Sleepy Hollow is brimming with relationships; Ichabod/Abbie, Abbie/Jenny, Ichabod/Katrina, Abbie/Irving, Jenny/Irving, Abbie/Corbin, and so on and so on, and so on. Here's a spot to talk about those relationships! As always, the overarching rule of Previously.TV applies here; you're at someone else's party, and different opinions are welcomed and debate is encouraged. Thanks in advance for your cooperation!

 

Carry on, my good friends!

[Elsinore]

I can totally see (and dig) an Ichabbie relationship. Not sure that I'd want to see it this season but I don't want to see it develop circa season 7 either.

 

My guess is that in the rules of tv, couples have the big realisation in late s2, struggle with it throughout s3, get together in s4 and get cruelly ripped apart the morning after. Not that any of these apply to the fact that he's still married. And because I've thought this through, can he divorce Katrina if he or she so wishes? Is it a valid marriage if there are no longer documents to prove it?

[Julia]

Is it a valid marriage if there are no longer documents to prove it?

Legally, neither one of them exists, so it's not a valid marriage. I don't think either of them is too worried about that. Ichabod, at least, thinks it is.

[HalcyonDays]

Well, the legalities of that marriage are not really the issue. In Ichabod's head (and I assume Katrina), he is married. To him, he feels that he is connected, bound or whatever to Katrina. Paperwork is irrelevant. He believes he is so that's enough.

[formerlyfreedom]

I very much enjoyed Corbin and Abbie's relationship (the little we've seen of it!) in the first season. Of course, I love me some Clancy Brown! I also found the fact that he had a 'secret' relationship with Jenny very interesting.

 

I'm hoping they can lock Clancy down for some more flashbacks, and see more interaction with both the women.

[topanga]

 

I can totally see (and dig) an Ichabbie relationship. Not sure that I'd want to see it this season but I don't want to see it develop circa season 7 either.

I agree. I think the show is walking a fine line. In almost every episode this season, you have Ichabod staring at Abbie and telling her, "We must fight this battle... DUH-DUH-DUH together." -or-  "We can only do this... DUH-DUH-DUH together." Right now it isn't too telenovella-ish, but it certainly has that potential. What we know, based on the information we've been given from the characters, is that Ichabod is committed to his wife, and Abbie doesn't have romantic feelings for anyone. So will the show take us on a season-long (or several season-long) cock-tease where Ichabod starts to develop secret feelings for Abbie, but no one knows it except for the audience?  Or will Abbie begin to develop feelings for Ichabod and then have a personal struggle about pining after a married man?

 

Right now I love the Ichabod-Abbie relationship. I just don't want it to become clichéd or campy.

[DearEvette]

Ich & Ab are my favorite relationship on tv right now.  To borrow a phrase of Grey's Anatomy, they feel like they are each others 'Person'.  I like how the writers have conceptualized them and are continuing to evolve them.  I am liking the the feeling that they are developing a relationship and all the things that go with it, doubt, trust issues, getting to know each other.  But yet we still feel they really are a team.  And I would not be able to see one without seeing the other.  And what makes it so much better is that by all rights they never should have ever been in each other's sphere at all.  Although I would like to see theme eventually develop into a romantic liaison (assuming their current chemistry remains unchanged), I like how they are developing now.  I like that it will be a little rocky sometimes and they'll argue and we'll take sides, but we  still feel they got each other's backs.

 

My second fave relationship in this show is Ab & Jenny.  I had no expectations of Jenny outside of her just being Abbie's sister, but boy am I loving their dynamic, their backstory and their evolution as a pair in just the same way i am loving Ab & Ich's.   And just like Ab & Ich they are a work in progress which is what I really appreciate.

 

Surprisingly, my third favorite relationship on the show is Abbie & Andy! We know absolutely nothing about Andy except 1) he loves Abbie and 2) he sold his soul to Moloch.  That's it.  We actually know waaay less about Andy than we know about Katrina, and yet, John Cho has managed to do with Andy what Katia Winter has never been able to do with Katrina for me and that is to connect me with the character.  The writing in thin on the ground with Andy moreso than any other character and yet I feel him!  And his -- whatever it is -- he has for  Abbie.  I also love how Abbie responds to him.  She only telegraphs it with her eyes, really, but you can tell that Abbie is sad, repulsed and little regretful about Andy.

Edited October 13, 2014 by DearEvette

[Watermelon]

I can't shake the idea that Katrina knows she's not Ichabod's TWU WUV. It may be my own feelings coloring the scenes, but I swear Katrina looks at Abbie and Ichabod like she knows it's inevitable, as though the two witnesses were always going to be a couple. 

 

When you think about it, it's a little weird that the two witnesses would be disparate. If it's a matter of the family tree, why is the witness Abbie and not Jenny. Or even their mother?  The witness connection should be more than just "I'm a random person who happened to interact this one time with this one demon/horseman"

[HalcyonDays]

I can't shake the idea that Katrina knows she's not Ichabod's TWU WUV.

 

I've had this thought very early on in last season. I have a feeling that Katrina - upon figuring out that Ichabod had "the power to Witness", she had to make sure he would end up Witnessing. For some reason I even have this thought that it was supposed to be Abraham + Ichabod originally, but then maybe Ichabod was more approprite or something, and the whole dumping, Headless resulted and therefore, Ichabod had to witness with a new partner - Abbie.

 

What I don't get is the show claiming platonic friends but then giving us this episode with all of the Ichabbie feels. I mean, there is obvious flirting, hugs, eye sex, teasing and for god's sake - giving us Abbie screaming his name while he gives her a joyride in the car (and she's enjoying it), AND orgasmic coffee savouring resulting in whipped cream on mustaches being wiped off by one's partner, complete with shy downward smiles. This show is even trying to be subtle anymore. I just hope this isn't a cheap way to drag along, or retain viewers.

 

I wish we had seen Jenny teaching Ichabod to drive. I really like their dynamic also - they play off each other so well and like Abbie, Jenny can handle Crane being Crane. They have a nice camraderie and seem to respect each other.

[topanga]

 

I mean, there is obvious flirting, hugs, eye sex, teasing and for god's sake - giving us Abbie screaming his name while he gives her a joyride in the car (and she's enjoying it), AND orgasmic coffee savouring resulting in whipped cream on mustaches being wiped off by one's partner, complete with shy downward smiles. This show is even trying to be subtle anymore. I just hope this isn't a cheap way to drag along, or retain viewers.

Oh, boy. You've got me all riled up, HalcyonDays. I'll have to rewatch and listen for the joyful screaming and the orgasmic eye sex.

[DearEvette]

Every single forum across the interwebs that I have seen on this episode has several someones pointing out the not-so-subtle sexual subtext that permeated this episode.  The entire driving scene was a sexual metaphor and then it is capped off with cream on Ichabod's lip with Abbie wiping it off.  Good lord!  They should have just gone whole hog and had Abbie eating a banana while Crane pops a champagne bottle.  Reminds of that scene from season one where they are breaking and entering in Corbin's cabin and Ichabod gives Abbie a sassy look and says 'Imagine the delinquency we could perpetrate if we put our minds to it."  This of course while she has a Flashlight (phallic) in her mouth.

 

I am not  hard core shipper, but don't sit there in interview after interview and insist "fans are seeing what they want to see" while putting this out there.  I will say that of all of them at least Goffman hasn't been as disingenuous.  He strikes me as one who tries to go outside the talking points and at least attempts to speak in the realm of reality.  I remember after SDCC where they were all "But.. wha..?  They are just friends!" over and over and over again.  I felt that all the writers really needed to do was to just simply acknowledge there was a latent attraction there between the two and just say 'You know what? It is there.  But they don't really realize it and couldn't act upon it even if they did and they have other stuff to do anyway.'  There done.  So i was very gratified to see a HuffPo interview in Sept. right before the premiere that Goffman did where he kinda did that very thing.  He says:

 

"There’s an attraction that both of them have to just completely ignore and keep blinders on because of the task at hand and because it’s just a place they can’t go."

 

Thank you!  That was all I wanted.

[HalcyonDays]

The entire driving scene was a sexual metaphor and then it is capped off with cream on Ichabod's lip with Abbie wiping it off.  Good lord!  They should have just gone whole hog and had Abbie eating a banana while Crane pops a champagne bottle.

 

LOL! I laughed at this! Oh my god. And you are right, the interwebs are saying the same things. Sexual Metaphor much? And I agree completely with what you are saying. If this is setting up an eventual acknowledgement on the show that yes, those two are attracted to each other, blah, blah, then fine. But it they truly think "we're just see what they want to see" and claiming platonic only, then it's disingenious, a slap to the fandom and clearly only stringing along viewers and that is insulting to those of us who love the show and love the relationship.

 

I ranted about this last season - why are you directing scenes in this particular way, or acting scenes a particular way or including certain bits of dialogue. Because there are other lines that can be spoken and scenes that can be removed and looks that can be suppressed. I just don't want to be led on, I guess. They didn't have to have Abbie wiping foam off of Crane, but they did. The exact same scene would have unfolded without that particular part.

 

I'm not a fan of Goffman at all - I see him as being very Chris Carter like with Katia Winter/Katrina. The worst is when the rest of the show writers, directors, etc also tweet sexually suggestive stuff to the masses. The hell? Ah well - I still love their scenes together - always the highlight of the show.

[Elsinore]

I think someone at TwoP once mentioned that tv writers do not understand shipper mentalities. Depends on your variety, really, but I don't know how you can look past it on this show. Would we be watching if it was about Crane and Katrina and them fighting demons as a married couple with Abbie being the odd one out? I'm sure there are shows where married couples "work" (The Americans) but you need viewers to keep wanting stuff from that relationship. I don't really see that happening with Crane and Katrina in the long run though.

 

If Katrina is not blessed with witchy powers, hopefully she is blessed with good foresight.

 

re: Mills sisters.

 

I was wondering how much of an age gap there is? I don't think it's been literally said they're twins but they were in high school at the same time. One year, two?

[topanga]

 

re: Mills sisters.

 

I was wondering how much of an age gap there is? I don't think it's been literally said they're twins but they were in high school at the same time. One year, two?

Jenny is the little sister. By 2-3 years. I can't remember which episode spelled out their ages--one of the early ones. The Sandman episode, maybe?

 

 

"There’s an attraction that both of them have to just completely ignore and keep blinders on because of the task at hand and because it’s just a place they can’t go."

Okay, I can see that from Ichabod. The way he looks at Abbie, the way he gets territorial when another man is near her (Hawley and Andy), and his heartfelt declarations of loyalty and commitment to their partnership. But he also says that Katrina is his epic TWU WUV, which is why he might think that "he can't go there."

 

But are we getting that vibe from Abbie? Yes, their snarky banter borders on the flirtatious, but she had a similar relationship and similar conversations with Corbin.  Were they secretly hooking up in his log cabin? (Which seems really incestuous to me). I haven't gotten romantic feelings from Abbie about anyone on the show. She's been all business and bad-assery. And I actually wouldn't mind seeing her have googly eyes over someone--Hawley or Luke, or even Andy (before he sold his soul).

[Carrie Ann]

I agree that Abbie/NB is much more guarded in her looks and emotional displays than Ichabod/TM, but I do think there are interactions with him that are different from any she shares with other characters. Tiny moments, when they hug, or share a look, where her guard drops for a minute and she lets you see how deep her connection to him is. Or how much that feeling unsettles her. They made it explicit when she said that her faith in him is her weakness. Obviously, that depth of feeling doesn't need to be read as romantic, but it feels that way to me.

[Trini]

 

What I don't get is the show claiming platonic friends but then giving us this episode with all of the Ichabbie feels.

Yeah, welcome to TV "platonic" relationships. I've been here before. Either they'll never go there (but the writers have to be committed to it), or they are totally going to go there, but it will take a few seasons of ups and downs. I'm thinking it's the latter for this show.

[bethy]

There's been some conversation in the recent episode thread about black women and relationships on television dramas.  What I would say about that in the context of SH is that it's early days yet. And I don't really consider it a "drama" ala Grey's Anatomy or Scandal, because a genre show focuses on the genre rather than the relationships among and between its characters.  I think genre shows have a history of dragging out the will they/won't they aspect of a relationship between leads when they end up with good chemistry - X-Files (don't get me started), Arrow (one kiss and a break up in season three), Eureka (it took several seasons for Jack and Allison (a black woman) to get together. I miss Eureka.  Sigh.).

 

I hope they get Ichabod and Abbie together, but I'm willing to be patient for a couple more seasons.  If we get that.  In the meantime, I'm LOVING the friendship/partnership/love we're seeing.  I'm actually kind of digging for the moment that their relationship isn't romantic (and I think can't be for either character because Ichabod is married and both of them are people of integrity) and that it's so strong and loving based on friendship rather than sex.  I hope at some point Katrina dies :) and they can get together, but I'm enjoying the ride until then.

[savinggrace]

I don't know. An Abbie/Crane hookup would be nice but I can't help but feel like others that it would just change the dynamics of the show and go downhill as they try to insert conflicts and doubts into the relationship. As has been said, once two people become a couple the only thing that can be done is to put obstacles  between them. I like the platonic, mutual respect/trust thing they have going right now.

[phoenics]

I don't know. An Abbie/Crane hookup would be nice but I can't help but feel like others that it would just change the dynamics of the show and go downhill as they try to insert conflicts and doubts into the relationship. As has been said, once two people become a couple the only thing that can be done is to put obstacles  between them. I like the platonic, mutual respect/trust thing they have going right now.

 

I'd rather see a slow burn than a hookup.  And I think if the show plays it right it could be compelling - as long as it isn't the main focus of the show - witnessing still has to be that focus.

 

Sometimes I wish US TV planned things out more like UK TV... they tend to know how long a show will go and so they plan each season arc meticulously - they know from the start what their endgame is - not so with US TV which seems to fly by the seat of its pants a lot more.

[savinggrace]

It will forever bother me that Jenny doesn't look like she could be even remotely related to Abbie. She also doesn't look like "young" Jennie in the flashbacks.  I love the character of Jennie but wish they could have found someone who bore more of a resemblance to Nicole Beharie.

[HalcyonDays]

It will forever bother me that Jenny doesn't look like she could be even remotely related to Abbie. She also doesn't look like "young" Jennie in the flashbacks.  I love the character of Jennie but wish they could have found someone who bore more of a resemblance to Nicole Beharie.

 

It's never bothered me. I just always assumed that one sister tended to strongly resemble the mother, the other sister strongly resembled the father. Happens all of the time, depending on your genetics decide to express themselves.

 

The developing and healing relaationship between the two sisters is something that I hope the show continues to flesh out this season. Greenwood and Beharie work really really together and have great sisterly chemistry, so I expect to see more interactions as the season goes on.

[shanndee]

I've had this thought very early on in last season. I have a feeling that Katrina - upon figuring out that Ichabod had "the power to Witness", she had to make sure he would end up Witnessing. For some reason I even have this thought that it was supposed to be Abraham + Ichabod originally, but then maybe Ichabod was more approprite or something, and the whole dumping, Headless resulted and therefore, Ichabod had to witness with a new partner - Abbie.

 

 

Yes! I have had this same feeling from season 1! Katrina's whole purpose was to ensure that the Witness became known and was put on the path to face his purpose. I'm not even sure that she WUVs him. I think she may have even put an enchantment on him to make him WUV her. Once they were married she could manipulate his actions to further her goal of preparing the Witness for battle.

 

I also think that over the centuries her commitment to her cause has wavered (with the help being imprisoned in purgatory by Moloch. I think a darkness has been released in her, and her character will actually become interesting if she becomes a "big bad".

[Carrie Ann]

As for Abbie and Crane, sigh... This is why I hate shipping. We are 18 episodes into this show. We're still at the point where we would just be teeing up the end of the first season. Putting Abbie and Crane together would be cheap, lazy fanfic straight out of the CW, regardless of Abbie's race. [...] Even if a coupling is in the future, the idea that it should be now is very shortsighted. Every show where the leads got together: House, Bones, Castle, X-Files (all shows I quit watching once they gave into shipping) waited many, many seasons in before going there. In fact, IMO hooking up the leads tends to be the sign that the writers are running out of steam. I want this show to go on for a nice long time. In fact I'm adopting Community's cry of "SIX SEASONS AND A MOVIE!"

 

We're still learning who these characters are as individuals. I think we can go at least another season or two before the show turns into Grey's Anatomy.

 

I'm not sure who's asking for Crane and Abbie to get together right now, but I don't think I've seen that sentiment on these boards. I get that you hate shipping, but by definition, people who want to see Abbie and Crane together romantically actually want to see that relationship develop. If they just want them to make out right now, well, yes that's what fanfic is for.

 

Also, romantic relationships are a big part of human experience, and I'm not sure why that should be ignored on TV dramas, or why including a romantic storyline makes a show instantly into a soap opera. Further, I think there's a case to be made that many shows that hold off on putting their couples together actually lose steam because of that stalling. But that's a bigger topic.

 

As for the idea that the writers don't value Abbie, well, there's no real-world basis for that. This is her show. This struggle is Abbie's struggle. Her struggle to come to terms with her destiny and to make sense of her past. She's every bit as important as Crane and the fact that they haven't turned her into Crane's love interest actually proves that. If the only way Abbie can be considered valuable is as Lois Lane to Crane's Superman then all the good this show has done by making her tough and layered and complex was a waste.

 

I agree that the writers value Abbie, and I too see this as her show. From my perspective, there are two main characters, but if either of them is a sidekick, it's Crane. So then I'm confused as to why, if they got together, that would put Abbie in the love interest role? Why is she the Lois Lane to Crane's Superman? Why would you assume that either of them, but particularly Abbie, would suddenly lose their fullness of character if they fall in love with the other?

 

Personally, as one of these shippers, I don't want or expect to see Ichabod and Abbie get together romantically this season, and probably not next season either. But when they do--because it will happen, assuming the show gets renewed--I see no reason to be concerned that it will negatively impact either of them as characters. They are co-leads, co-witnesses, and partners--one of them is not going to suddenly take over the support role just because their lips touch sometimes. They each bring something unique to the table that the other cannot, just speaking from a narrative perspective alone.

[Dejana]

I don't see the nature/genre of Sleepy Hollow precluding any sort of romantic Ichabbie involvement down the line, but a Jenny/Hawley/Abbie triangle, or some guy causing "tension" between the two sisters...no. If this were a Shonda Rimes thing or Revenge or whatever, I wouldn't think twice about a development like that, but those are very different sorts of shows where "twisty" romantic developments were part of the landscape from day one.

[Miss Dee]

For lead male/lead female relationships on a genre show without a hint of romance I would recommend watching Person of Interest (Reese/Shaw), Elementary (Holmes/ Watson); possibly Agents of Shield as well (Phil/May), if the few episodes I saw are anything to go by.

Of course, two of these three actresses are women of colour while the third is of Iranian descent. Well now, isn't that a coincidence....

[Carrie Ann]

I've never seen the level of anti-shipping, pre-series premiere, like what I saw for Elementary and Sleepy Hollow, and recently, The Flash. Now, all of those have other factors too. Some people would hate the idea that Holmes and Watson would ever be together romantically; some people knew Ichabod was married and his wife was still out there, and wanted that to mean that romance was off the table; and a lot of Flash viewers have been burned by a similar romantic pairing on Arrow. But still, there does seem to be an overarching pattern there. It doesn't mean anything about an individual's reasons for not shipping two characters, but it's important to acknowledge that there is a tendency for fans to reject POC characters in what would otherwise be seen as obvious or inevitable romantic couplings. And also that there is a dearth of good romantic storylines involving POC characters (true for every other kind of storyline as well, of course).

 

Anyway, on that note, I don't really get what they're trying to do with Hawley. It seems way too simplistic to use him to cause conflict between Jenny and Abbie, because their relationship is so much more complex than that. And because I don't believe Abbie cares enough about the romantic side of her life to be willing to go through ANY amount of conflict with Jenny over it. So if they only have short-term plans for Hawley, then I guess I can see him just being there to annoy Ichabod and maybe be the catalyst for some realizations. But if they plan to have him here long-term, then...?

[HalcyonDays]

For lead male/lead female relationships on a genre show without a hint of romance I would recommend watching Person of Interest (Reese/Shaw), Elementary (Holmes/ Watson); possibly Agents of Shield as well (Phil/May), if the few episodes I saw are anything to go by.

Of course, two of these three actresses are women of colour while the third is of Iranian descent. Well now, isn't that a coincidence....

 

Yeah, I never understood this argument either. The common line I've heard is "I just want ONE show to not feature the male and female leads romantically together." So is it ONE show out of all of the shows that air, or one show out of the ones you watch? Because just as you listed, Miss Dee, there are many shows out there that don't have the mains together. I would include the Walking Dead in this list. Even though the cast is larger, the mains to me are Rick, Carol, Michonne and Darryl and no romance there. Just survival.

 

The fact is the two leads have amazing chemistry and as I mentioned elsewhere, more sparks/chemistry/etc between each other as current friends, than most romantic couples have on other shows.

 

I know that some people are against it because its not the same as the perfect harlequin romance ideal that Katrina/Ichabod is supposed to represent. However, I don't quite get why a relationship with one spouse lying about anything and everything is appealing, but hey, that's me. What do I know. I DO think that most of us would want to have a husband (or wife) who is as insanely devoted and loyal and charming and all forgiving as Ichabod is. That's part of the appeal, but it's not realistic in life. A good relationship cannot be built on lies, mistrust and manipulation.

 

I would like to see the mains together because I think they become better people in each others presence. Chemistry's already been mentioned. They make each other laugh, they support each other, they have fun together, they compliment each other, they care deeply for each other, they (according to the writers) are attracted to each other, they enjoy each others company. What more is a good romantic relationship than that, besides adding a level of intimacy. Love is not epic yet empty declarations that have no substance, which is how I see the K/I thing, to be honest. And the old addage is that best friends make the best and most satisfying lovers/long term relationships.

 

The relationships on SH right now (and I would guess permanently), are only there to serve the purpose of advancing plot and being obstacles come up that are barriers to the Witnesses fight against evil. Jenny and Abbie's fracturious relationship started because of Henry being raised/Abbie being a Witness. Katrina affects/influences Ichabod because of her directing his path to Witness. Henry is the result of bad decision making and is now providing an evil barrier to dispatching evil. Andy's love of Abbie led him to the dark side. And there is more coming.

 

Everything is entwined around Abbie and Ichabod in terms of their relationships with other people and how it positively or negatively affects their overall decision making and resolution of their Witness duties. That's now I see it.

[Carrie Ann]

Also, many series are developed with the idea that their partner leads would eventually be together (Castle, Bones, Haven, for a few examples), so that's an element that's just baked into the show and it doesn't have to be your favorite part, but that's where the writers are going. I've watched shows where I wasn't into the main romantic pairing, and sometimes I just can't get past it and I quit the show.

 

Now, the writers and cast of SH constantly contradict themselves when it comes to Ichabod/Abbie, and I think part of that is just so that they don't give up too much about where the show is heading in general. But I suspect that even if it wasn't the original plan, once they cast NB and TM in these roles, and saw them together on screen, this became the plan. I think they continued to test out the idea of a love triangle with Katrina over last season, but that during the hiatus, they came to only see her as a roadblock. I don't begrudge anyone for not liking Ichabbie, but it is happening--slowly, with a lot of bumps along the way, but this is the path we're on.

[Indi]

I for one have no use for nor any interest in Katrina. I say this not as an Abbie/Ichabod shipper because as I have stated more than once. I was okay with the possible pairing, if that is where the showing was going until the finale of the first season. At that time, Ichabod revealed himself to be a duplicitous liar who was all too willing and able to sacrifice Abbie to get what he wanted and that was Katrina; role as witness and the Apocalypse be damned. So when it comes to Ichabod's pontifications about his bond with Abbie as the witnesses, I have seen nothing this season that makes me change my opinion of Ichabod. So as far as I am concerned, there is no need to save him from Katrina, because I never saw a better matched pair. I know people who genuinely love Ichabod and who can't stand Katrina, but sometimes, the very fate you wish to save someone from is the very fate that they not only desire but deserve.

As for Hawley, I agree that he is being given a role that used to be served by Jenny and Frank. I also agree that a possible pairing with Abbie is vomit inducing, not because of the actor, but because of the past relationship with Jenny. If the show wanted him to be a viable love interest, a past that included anything other than friendship with Jenny should never have been written. Under different circumstances, I might have gone for a Hawley and Abbie pairing, but not with the Jenny connection. Too bad as Abbie deserves to have a fully fleshed out life. Being a cop, a witness and a Crane prop is an insult to the character.

As for the comments on what's wrong with the show, I agree that there is likely network interference. Katrina's continued presence and the introduction of Hawley and the elimination of Luke smacks of a network being afraid of a cast that is too non-white, John Cho is on another show, but I suspect that were he fully available, we would have seen no more his character for the same reason. The sad part is that a huge portion of the fan-base was drawn to and grew to love the show because of its diversity and this loss of diversity is and will continue to sink the show in the ratings.

As for me, Monday's episode will be the first one I will not watch live. I usually watch and record, so I can review things of interest (there has been much less reviewing this season). However, I will record and watch, so I can skip over the special snow-flaking of the Katrina character. I am also 100% uninterested in a Katrina turns evil because of the bite, so we can give her an easy out story-line. Had she turned on her own, or been revealed to have always been evil, I could support such a story, but if what I suspect will come is right, I can't co-sign on this. I am also uninterested in the redeem Henry crap. He is and quite frankly was a sociopath before the coven buried him. Remember, he used the Golem to kill anyone who he perceived as a threat, yet sacrificed that very protector to further his evil plans, nothing nice or redeemable there. People keep talking about him like a petulant twelve-year old, but he was not twelve at the time of his burial. He was buried in his late teens because he was too evil and too powerful for the coven to be able to stop. The fact that he remained alive and continued to develop while buried attests to the evil that is his true driving force.

This is what I've been saying for a while. Ichy is not better than Katrina, he's just funnier. He's been just as duplicitous with people he made oaths to. That's why I have no patience with his hypocritical reaction to her two episodes ago, when I know he lacks the integrity to truly value loyalty, friendship and true love based on respect. Notice how he didn't care about what Katrina did to Mary and her family, whether murder or forging a letter, the issue for him was that that she lied to him, something he has already forgotten, btw, because now this moron already trusts her again.

 

The Cranes are the same kind of horrible people to me, who will betray and sacrifice everyone else for their needs. There is no way I'd want Abbie with someone as gross as Ichy.

 

I also agree that Henry's redemption is not an interesting plot. If he was compelling and not linked to the worst couple on TV, maybe I'd be on board, but he's neither. He is only marginally more menacing than Abraham and as boring and whiny as his parents. Moloch deserves better than these dull neutered Horsemen.

[fantique]

@HalcyonDays I absolutely love your breakdown of how all the relationships on the show are inevitably linked to the witnesses. While it sometimes feels ridiculous that everything always circles back to them, it makes sense when considering the type of war they are fighting. The flashbacks for both of them reveal that there has been a lot of work behind the scenes. It makes sense for example that both Moloch and the people fighting him would try to have their witnesses surrounded by influences that would shift the balance. I am just terrified to see how the other 2 Horsemen relate to Abbie. Or what could be interesting is that the Horsemen are changed around as the show goes on and all those people who had an experience shaping the witnesses are brought into it. It's a typical sci-fi/fantasy villain strategy, kick where it hurts the most. Try to undermine the heroes and let them self-destruct with doubt, fear and feelings of abandonment.

 

WRT the witnesses' relationship with each other, I am just protective of its awesomeness. I just think it's special and pure. Not pure in the sense that it's perfect and neither wrongs the other ever (to me that's unrealistic). I think that the purity comes from the open exchange. 

 

If/when they go the romantic route, I want to have been given time to fall in love with their love just like I fell in love with their friendship. I just like how strong their bond as comrades in arms is because the stakes are too high to waste time bullshitting and lying to each other. That's refreshing. In another show, they would have had Crane sneak away to talk to/free Katrina. I just think that right now, they are closer to each other than anyone else they know and I am just wondering what more could romance bring that isn't already there. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by fantique

[Fable]

I don't really believe the show runners are promoting Katrina and Ichabod as an Epic love story.  It seems to me that by bringing Katrina front and center in the last few episodes, they were emphasizing the cracks in the Crane's relationship rather than painting them as the One True Pairing.  Honestly, Katrina seems a bit shady to me, and Ichabod seems rather aloof towards her and mistrusting.  I'm guessing this is a directing choice, because I doubt it has anything to do with the actors.   Mison has chemistry with his cell phone and Katia Winter's chemistry is fine with John Noble and the actor who plays Abraham. 

 

I could be way off, but the people who write this show do it for a living and have to have at least half of a brain.  My guess is they want us to see the strain building in the Crane's marriage.  They could have just left her stuck with Abraham and left Ichabod pining over her, but instead they brought her and Crane together to let us know there was trouble in paradise.   The fact that they sent her back to Abraham speaks volumes.  If they wanted us to believe in their amazing love story, they would have left them together and kept shoving them down our throats.  Nope, I'm sure there is more going on than meets the eye!

[Iamsweetdee]

I don't know, even Orlando Jones describes the show as a love story set against the backdrop of the war between good and evil or some such. He had to get that from somewhere. I saw the quote when reading up on the mixtape he co-produced for the show. For some reason I can't put in a shortcut but: http://www.datpiff.com/-Sleepy-Halloween-mixtape.662948.html

[fantique]

Grrr...! I just don't get why romance has to be introduced at all. I don't give a flying monkey about the Cranes marriage as I am not their counsellor and neither is Abbie. Just get back to the ass kicking. I was ok with Katrina in the mix if she evened the balance between Team Evil and Team Witness. If all they are showing me is her fainting and being defeated then just make her go dark and kill her by the end of the season. I just want to have more than one show on TV that has a cool sci-fi/fantasy element that doesn't try to be "grounded" in romance. Show me political conflicts in the past, Abbie's family history and Crane's dealing with the Founding Fathers instead of the token "Benjamin once told me this...". They cast a great BF and don't show him after episode 2. There were a lot of promises of backstories and all I got was that the Cranes are as healthy a family as the freaking Lannisters. I could have told you that before, show. If they are given a chance with a 3rd season, I want them to go back to 13 episodes, cut the fat out and have the original showrunners back into the mix.

[Fable]

I don't know, even Orlando Jones describes the show as a love story set against the backdrop of the war between good and evil or some such. He had to get that from somewhere

 He never defines the couple though.  I would guess it is Crane and Abbie.  I'm not a shipper, but it seems pretty obvious they intend to go there. 

[fantique]

I have a question for active Ichabbie shippers: did you guys expect more of a slow burn, endgame type of thing or a "I want them together right now"? Because I hate when shows over-correct and feel the need to do something about chemistry they weren't expecting. Either by doing anything they can to detract from it or fast forwarding to the relationship part of the couple's evolution. Anyone who watches Arrow, I mean something like instead of O+F going on a date in the premiere and then angst, angst, angst. I'd rather they had given little snippets of getting closer until say, a little before the finale with a declaration they can't deal with until after the hiatus in season 4 because that's when the action ramps up. I think that would have worked better because most of that ship is about endgame.

 

Obviously Sleepy Hollow went the other way and I don't know why they feel the need to say "more than friends? Gasp!" and then have easter eggs. I'd rather they just wrote the script like they never heard of Ichabbie. No baiting, but also no anvils of Crane saying "my love" to/about Katrina every 5 minutes. Last season he talked about her but it wasn't as obnoxious. If they keep making her this distrustful, they are inviting people to think Crane is an idiot since he glosses over her dubious behaviour. They should just let the story grow organically.

[RiddleyWalker]

 I'd rather they just wrote the script like they never heard of Ichabbie. No baiting, but also no anvils of Crane saying "my love" to/about Katrina every 5 minutes. Last season he talked about her but it wasn't as obnoxious. If they keep making her this distrustful, they are inviting people to think Crane is an idiot since he glosses over her dubious behaviour. They should just let the story grow organically.

I think it's pretty obvious that the writers are working on separating Katrina and Ichabod, that lack of chemistry between them is not just …well… lack of chemistry. It's entirely intentional so don't worry Ichbabbie shippers, they'll get back to that at some point. The tough part for the writers may be in making Ichabod worthy of Abbie at this point. It's the whole boy (with a wife)  meets girl, things are great initially but something separates them and they have to work that out. That's where the writers are going (if the show stays on long enough to allow them). Ichabod's declarations of love for Katrina are simply those of a man trying to hold on to what he thought he had. Look at the body language in the Ichabod and Katrina scenes, don't listen to the words. These are good actors and the writers are trying not to totally telegraph what is happening in the Crane's marriage. Give the writers (and actors) a little credit.

[fantique]

Oh I don't want Ichabbie to happen. I am willing to reconsider if they reach season 5 but I feel that they are already so close, much closer in fact to each other than anyone else in their lives, that I don't see the point of them getting romantically involved. I was just wondering because if most Ichabbie shippers are all about the long game, the writers trying so hard to put out the fire is stupid because those people don't even want them together now. It makes the writers' obsession with selling the Cranes' relationship redundant, although I am willing to entertain the idea they are trying to surprise us if/when she goes dark or something happens and she has to betray Crane. Just because I don't want Ichabbie doesn't mean I am automatically into the Cranes' marriage. I think the fact that some people would have liked to ship Caroline and Crane is a reflection on how bad the Cranes' relationship is. They are so unsavoury people are looking for alternative romantic partners for him. I really hope I can trust the writers and that when they are all "the Cranes forever and ever", they are being Moffat levels of lying liars who lie. Ideally for me, romance of any kind should be like subplot number 5. But if they must have it, at least don't show me some dysfunctional crap that takes up story telling time because of how angsty it makes some of the characters.

Edited November 23, 2014 by fantique

[BigEasygirl]

I have a question for active Ichabbie shippers: did you guys expect more of a slow burn, endgame type of thing or a "I want them together right now"? Because I hate when shows over-correct and feel the need to do something about chemistry they weren't expecting. Either by doing anything they can to detract from it or fast forwarding to the relationship part of the couple's evolution.

 

Ideally, Katrina would have been killed off in the season 1 finale as planned.  I wanted them to just grow closer slowly while the Apocalypse story played out.  I would have written Ichabod and Abbie as basically unaware of what's happening except for a few moments here and there where we see they or one of them does know but are in denial or something like that.  They continue the flirty banter and the scenes where Ichabod and Abbie are so comfortable with each other that they seem like they're an old married couple. I wanted the show to really delve into the characters (Ichabod, Abbie, Jenny and Irving and family). Then toward the end of season 4, something should happen to make them realize that they can't keep pretending that they don't romantically love each other.  Then in season 5, I would've had Abbie be the one resistant to a romance with Ichabod trying to convince her to allow him to court her since Abbie is the one who has a problem letting people in so she won't get hurt.  This is playing out in the backdrop as they are still fighting the Horsemen, Moloch or whomever.

 

The romance would always be secondary to the main storyline.  The show shouldn't be too heavy handed with it.  The chemistry between Tom and Nicole makes that unnecessary.

 

But now that Ichabod is an asshat, I'm just conflicted about the whole thing.  I just know that the show needs to get back to the Apocalypse; give Ichabod back his brain, manners and good taste (which means getting Katrina away from him--hopefully in death); give Abby POV and a relevance that befits a co-lead; restore Irving and Jenny to their previous roles, and then it should go from there.

[cynic]

(Moved from media thread)

I have a question for active Ichabbie shippers: did you guys expect more of a slow burn, endgame type of thing or a "I want them together right now"? Because I hate when shows over-correct and feel the need to do something about chemistry they weren't expecting. Either by doing anything they can to detract from it or fast forwarding to the relationship part of the couple's evolution...

I was hoping that it would turn into something like Mulder and Scully. They got to know each other and their trust grew as they they worked together over several seasons. It wasn't romantic per se, but you could see them becoming the most important people in each others' lives as they fought together and had each others' backs against huge odds. Having said that, I would prefer Ichabbie to happen a little earlier than Scully/Mulder did and with a bit more of an obvious buildup so a kiss (not to mention a baby!) doesn't come completely from left field.

[Indi]

Ichy would need a major rewrite for me to ever consider Ichabbie a viable option. I think he's a despicable character and the writers have been relying too much on his special white male lead status, forced humor and reactions to the modern world to hide how morally corrupt he is. If they paired Abbie with that asshole, I'd consider it a punishment for her rather than anything romantic. He's better off with his wife, who is just as useless and horrible. I don't care that they don't have any chemistry. The show can keep them together without actually give them any screentime. If that means more Abbie/Jenny, Abbie/anyone else screentime, I'm all for it.

 

I'm sorry to say this, but this show is in the most incompetent hands.

[savinggrace]

At this point Ichabod is fairly tainted as a love interest for Abbie. I mean the writers have practically beaten viewers over the head with his frothy declarations of love for Katrina. He's treated Abbie like absolute crap in favor of Katrina so why would I want Abbie with him? If Ichabod only gets with Abbie after Katrina dies then it looks like he only settled for Abbie  because Katrina the Useless Witch is gone. I'm sure Ichatrina shippers will have a field day reminding everyone Ichabod's true love died and Abbie is getting sloppy seconds.

 

I also hate how Hawley has been tainted as a love interest as I would love to see what would become of him and Abbie. There was absolutely no reason to make Hawley a former Jenny hookup. In fact, the writers completely abandoned what appeared to be growing connection between Jenny and Irving just to have her throw herself at Nick. In lieu of making her character disappear, they could have had Jenny checking in on Irving and trying to get him out of his predicament before the season finale.

Edited November 23, 2014 by savinggrace

[BigEasygirl]

I think Hawley actually has chemistry with Jenny, none of which I see with Abbie.  Abbie and Ichabod's explosive chemistry just exposes the alternatives (Habbie/Ichatrina) for the poor imitations they are.  They should just stop, and if he's to stay, instead of replacing Jenny with Hawley as they've seemed to do; they should attach him to her.  Hawley should be shown to have a thing for Jenny with her being the one who doesn't want to get serious.  He could be having feelings for Abbie because, as Jenny's sister, she has qualities he finds attractive in Jenny.  Have him give that up because he really wants to be with Jenny.  That can be the underlying thread of their (Hawley and Jenny's) relationship.  But Jenny should never take a backseat to Hawley.  He should be there in support of her as well as the others.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Reese

[phoenics]

I think Hawley actually has chemistry with Jenny, none of which I see with Abbie.  Abbie and Ichabod's explosive chemistry just exposes the alternatives (Habbie/Ichatrina) for the poor imitations they are.  They should just stop, and if he's to stay, instead of replacing Jenny with Hawley as they've seemed to do; they should attach him to her.  Hawley should be shown to have a thing for Jenny with her being the one who doesn't want to get serious.  He could be having feelings for Abbie because, as Jenny's sister, she has qualities he finds attractive in Jenny.  Have him give that up because he really wants to be with Jenny.  That can be the underlying thread of their (Hawley and Jenny's) relationship.  But Jenny should never take a backseat to Hawley.  He should be there in support of her as well as the others.

I like this - the only thing I would add is throwing Irving into this triangle. THAT is a triangle I could get behind...

Then if they bring on

Orion as a love interest for Abbie, then they can eventually (if they redeem Ichabod and get rid of Katrina) try a triangle with him, Abbie and Orion.

[cynic]

I just rewatched the Weeping Lady episode and I really enjoyed the scene between Jenny and Hawley on the boat. I could get behind them. I actually think Hawley has good chemistry with Abbie too, but it does feel much more platonic-variety at least on her side as of yet and the Jenny complication does make a romance there kinda icky.

I do agree that bonding Hawley with Jenny (as opposed to displacing her) is the way to go.

I also like his chemistry with Crane.

[phoenics]

I just had a thought/question: Would Sleepy Hollow have gotten as popular as it did without Ichabbie's chemistry? Or without the Ichabbie shipping?

Because it doesn't seem like Ichatrina could have boosted this show without Ichabbie... but would it be popular without Ichabbie? Would the show have even made it out of the pilot without the strength of Ichabbie?

I feel dizzy.

[Miss Dee]

Personally, I wonder what would happen if they paired Hawley and Katrina for an episode....e. g. Katrina needs saving, Ichabbie are busy elsewhere, so Hawley has to go do it. Is it possible that the negative chemistry would be so intense it becomes super mega negative chemistry, reaches some kind of event horizon and bends in on itself to become positive? I could see a real haughty princess/sarcastic rogue possibility there, romantic or platonic.

[JayKay]

I just had a thought/question: Would Sleepy Hollow have gotten as popular as it did without Ichabbie's chemistry? Or without the Ichabbie shipping?

I don't really ship anybody on Sleepy Hollow, but the Ichabod/Abbie chemistry absolutely elevates this show from some Saturday night SyFy flick. There are a lot of surprisingly quality elements to the show, including Jenny, Frank, John Cho (formerly), some of the sfx, monster lore and historical ruminations, but the genuine camaraderie between those two is what first made me sit up and go "Huh. There might be something to this show. I'll try it." I don't know what it is, but if you can tell that the characters care about each other, I care about them too.

 

It's the same reason I love It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia: The friendship feels real. And that doesn't come around all that often.

 

I also want more Jenny and Ichabod interaction. The two of them driving around doing random stuff, with Jenny talking about young Abbie and Ichabod listening intently - and then they go somewhere cool that Abbie would never take Ichabod. I think that Jenny and Ichabod could be great bros if the writing allowed it.

[topanga]

I'm re-watching Season 1 eps with my family. We just watched the 2-part finale, and having the benefit of hindsight, I was even more enraged than before when watching Crane re-draw Washington's map.  And he did it almost immediately after promising Abbie that they would not use the map to rescue Katrina from purgatory because of the possible consequences with Moloch. And then he followed up this statement by telling Abbie that he wouldn't ever betray her trust and that their friendship means more to him than anything else in the world. Was he lying? Or was he really so enchanted by Katrina's heaving bosoms that he would risk Abbie's life and the future of humanity just to see them again?

 

And I'm even more upset that Abbie has never confronted Ichabod about this betrayal. All the words he's been spouting this season about them having no one but each other and their need to remain together--it's all a sack of shit. And Abbie (thanks to the writers) has never called him on his shit. See, from the moment Ichabod redrew the map, he created a line in the sand: Katrina on one side, and everything else on the other: his friendship with Abbie, honesty and loyalty, fighting the Apocalypse, and being a Witness. And so far he's chosen Katrina--and by extension, Henry--each and every time

 

This might change, but for now, I can't believe a word out of Ichabod's mouth when he talks to Abbie about their bond and their friendship.

[Indi]

I'm re-watching Season 1 eps with my family. We just watched the 2-part finale, and having the benefit of hindsight, I was even more enraged than before when watching Crane re-draw Washington's map.  And he did it almost immediately after promising Abbie that they would not use the map to rescue Katrina from purgatory because of the possible consequences with Moloch. And then he followed up this statement by telling Abbie that he wouldn't ever betray her trust and that their friendship means more to him than anything else in the world. Was he lying? Or was he really so enchanted by Katrina's heaving bosoms that he would risk Abbie's life and the future of humanity just to see them again?

 

And I'm even more upset that Abbie has never confronted Ichabod about this betrayal. All the words he's been spouting this season about them having no one but each other and their need to remain together--it's all a sack of shit. And Abbie (thanks to the writers) has never called him on his shit. See, from the moment Ichabod redrew the map, he created a line in the sand: Katrina on one side, and everything else on the other: his friendship with Abbie, honesty and loyalty, fighting the Apocalypse, and being a Witness. And so far he's chosen Katrina--and by extension, Henry--each and every time

 

This might change, but for now, I can't believe a word out of Ichabod's mouth when he talks to Abbie about their bond and their friendship.

 

Yes, he was. Why the need for that whole display and drama, when they both know he has eidetic memory? Because he was lying. He wanted her whole trust to get her off his back, so that he could draw the map in the privacy of the home she provided for him. He could have drawn it, after getting Abbie’s consent, but he didn’t.

 

That wasn’t the last time he made empty oaths. This season he’s made quite a few of them.

 

I agree that it’s bullshit and very OOC that Abbie hasn’t confronted him about his betrayal, but, as it’s been pointed out before, Ichabod enjoys a very privileged position of White Male Lead, which allows him to be horrible without serious consequences for himself.

[FormerMod-a1]

I am not sure if I like how the Ichabod/Katrina relationship is being written/presented, and not just because Katrina is my least favorite character.  On the one hand, if they are trying to show that they are stiff around each other and tentative and not connecting, they are doing a good job.  And I can really buy it since they are essentially strangers to each other.  With all the lies Katrina told while they were alive together, she really isn't the person Ichabod thought he knew and married.  Plus she spent a couple of hundred years in purgatory, that has to change someone.  And he's changed too, he's changed just by spending so much time in "our" century and fighting evil.  However, I don't think this is what the show is going for.  So then it's bad writing, chemistry, and/or acting.  Although they did have them separated, Ichabod has been showing his reluctance, and this was supposed to be a "first" date, so who knows.  Of course, the biggest sin, from a TV entertainment standpoint is they are just boring together, imo.  If they must keep her, make her more of a tertiary character and resolve this quickly.  Let them get annulled or divorced or even pretend they were never married.