House Tyrell: Uprooted

[Advance35]

Based on the promo for Season 5, it looks like House Tyrell will be up to their usual and expected tricks of intrigue and social climbing.    I would assume Margaery is hugging Tommen around the waist while giving a devious look and if I were to guess, I'd say that Lady Olenna is threatening Littlefinger but I have no evidence of that, just speculation.

 

Their sly, devious, well loved by the Common people of Kings Landing, they have money and provisions second to no other Kingdoms but they aren't dealing with the cruelly and cooly practical Tywin anymore.   They have to deal with Cersei.   Yikes.

 

It'll be interesting to see how House Tyrell fares this season, they've been on a steady path of UP since the series began but it seems the arena is changing.

[Advance35]

Considering everything that's happened this thread has definitely earned a revival.   Absolutely nothing is coming up roses for Highgarden these days.

 

It's become painfully clear that Olenna is the brains of the outfit and I don't think the House would fare well without her.   Margaery is clever in a beauty contestant kind of way but she never would have been able to hold her own with Tywin, even Cersei got the better of her in their season long Kings Landing showdown.

 

Olenna said Loras isn't wise he's just a good sword fighter.   And when Cersei had both siblings on the ropes they called in "Grandmother".

 

I LOL when Olenna was ranting to Margaery and concluded with "she want's to drag our name through the dirt. (Cuts eyes to Margaery) Get some rest dear, you look appalling.  You leave Cersei Lannister to me."

 

And her calling Cersei a tart and than giving a "What are you going to do about it" look. LOL.      Olenna is probably use to contending with people who are as interested in self-preservation as she is,  Cersei is willing to destroy herself as long as she get's to take those she hates with her so it'll be interesting to see how Olenna tries to play things going forward.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Advance35

[Lady S.]

It's become painfully clear that Olenna is the brains of the outfit and I don't think the House would fare well without her.   Margaery is clever in a beauty contestant kind of way but she never would have been able to hold her own with Tywin, even Cersei got the better of her in their season long Kings Landing showdown.

Ouch, but unfortunately true this season, charming the right people is a valuable skill for a woman in Westeros but it can really only get you so far, soft power needs to be backed up by something. 

 

Someone in the ep thread mentioned how Olenna hasn't asked after her son, but I assume Marg covered how Cersei got Mace out of the way when she summoned Grandma for help. Having the Lord Oaf of Highgarden in Meryn Trant's care is hardly a good thing, but having the future of House Tyrell imprisoned really is a more pressing concern.

[Avaleigh]

Considering everything that's happened this thread has definitely earned a revival.   Absolutely nothing is coming up roses for Highgarden these days.

 

It's become painfully clear that Olenna is the brains of the outfit and I don't think the House would fare well without her.   Margaery is clever in a beauty contestant kind of way but she never would have been able to hold her own with Tywin, even Cersei got the better of her in their season long Kings Landing showdown.

 

Olenna said Loras isn't wise he's just a good sword fighter.   And when Cersei had both siblings on the ropes they called in "Grandmother".

 

I LOL when Olenna was ranting to Margaery and concluded with "she want's to drag our name through the dirt. (Cuts eyes to Margaery) Get some rest dear, you look appalling.  You leave Cersei Lannister to me."

 

And her calling Cersei a tart and than giving a "What are you going to do about it" look. LOL.      Olenna is probably use to contending with people who are as interested in self-preservation as she is,  Cersei is willing to destroy herself as long as she get's to take those she hates with her so it'll be interesting to see how Olenna tries to play things going forward.

That was the best part of the scene. She leaned forward and was like 'Yeah, I said it, bitch.' Another good one was when she flat out told Cersei that there is no veil on her threats. The Queen of Thorns is flat out telling Cersei here that she isn't going to take this shit lying down and Cersei the Idiot just continues to think that she can do whatever she wants. 

 

I liked that Olenna almost seemed bored with Cersei's arrogance when Cersei stupidly said that House Lannister has no rival. If Olenna hadn't been so pissed she might have fallen asleep from how tired she is of Cersei's ridiculous snobbery and self perceived superiority. At least Tywin could be amusing. 

 

I think Loras and Margaery are going to be taken out in one swoop. With only four episodes left though I don't think the trials will be until next season, unfortunately. 

[Constantinople]

Someone in the ep thread mentioned how Olenna hasn't asked after her son, but I assume Marg covered how Cersei got Mace out of the way when she summoned Grandma for help. Having the Lord Oaf of Highgarden in Meryn Trant's care is hardly a good thing, but having the future of House Tyrell imprisoned really is a more pressing concern.

Given what a dip shit Mace is, I can't decide if his absence is better for Cersei or for Olenna.

[Pete Martell]

It's become painfully clear that Olenna is the brains of the outfit and I don't think the House would fare well without her.   Margaery is clever in a beauty contestant kind of way but she never would have been able to hold her own with Tywin, even Cersei got the better of her in their season long Kings Landing showdown.

 

Considering that Olenna killed Joffrey and left an unstable kingdom behind, with her only advice to Margaery (who was already showing that she was not up to the task by pouting how she wanted to be queen) being to make sure Tommen puts a ring on it (which has gotten Margaery absolutely nothing in return), I'm not sure how clever she is.

 

It seems like beyond arch one-liners, and Diana Rigg's own personal charm, Olenna is ultimately powerless when it counts. If her entire family is that stupid and she is that superior to them, then leaving them all on their own for extended periods of time when the kingdom is in chaos and an insane person (Cersei) has just lost their son (and soon enough their father)...it makes no sense to me.

 

I really hate how the Tyrells are presented.

 

I hate how unbelievably stupid Loras is, how his homosexuality is his defining characteristic to the writers, yet is only really important to the story when we need to see that he cares so much about cock that he will happily risk his life and his entire family's lives for it. It's such a consistently negative, demeaning portrayal of homosexuality - one of the most negative I've seen on a "major" TV show in years. 

 

I hate that Margaery has little to no personality or purpose beyond the inept pouting smirker who just taunted and taunted Cersei and totally dropped any guard.

 

I hate that Olenna mostly just shows up occasionally to call Cersei a slut or whore or talk about how stupid she is, and then leave again.

 

I don't know if we're supposed to root for Cersei in this, or if we're supposed to want everyone in King's Landing to burn.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Advance35]

I think she left Kings Landing because she knew Tywin was there and he was a long term thinker.  He knew that he/House Lannister NEEDS House Tyrell for gold AND food.  Olenna seemed to know his House was having money trouble, hence why she taunted him at the Purple Wedding about his dealings with the Iron Bank.   Had Tywin stayed on as Hand, Margaery could have ruled Tommen in their chambers, continued parading around Kings Landing shaking hands and kissing babies, the only down side being Loras would have had to marry Cersei.   But I wonder if Olenna had some sort of longterm plan for that, I doubt she was happy with the idea of Cersei and the Lannisters getting their hooks into Highgarden.

 

IMO Olenna's proven she's more than just one-liners.  She plotted and succeeded in comitting regicide, she made a valiant attempt to manuever the North/Sansa Stark out from under House Lannister and into the pockets of the Tyrells.   We've seen she keeps STRINGENT track on what the Tyrells bring to the table as shown in her showdown with Tyrion in S3 where she quoted food, arms, soldiers to the number.   Margaery has her talents so to speak and she seems to get political currents but that's about it.  

 

I've always considered Loras a very ill-defined character, even in the book, so his portrayal on the show doesn't bother me.      The Faith Militant wasn't armed when he began cavorting with his friend, hence why Oberyn was able to do it last season.  I think it was just arrogance on his part/The Tyrells.   He thought his Sister was Queen-to-be, Tywin was gone, Tyrion on the run and Tommen easily misled and that made House Tyrell large and in charge.   Cersei isn't a long term planner like Olenna but she is destructive, House Tyrell didn't realize this.

 

But I think Olenna will deliver a haymaker or two to Cersei before all is said and done.

[Pete Martell]

I think she left Kings Landing because she knew Tywin was there and he was a long term thinker.  He knew that he/House Lannister NEEDS House Tyrell for gold AND food.  Olenna seemed to know his House was having money trouble, hence why she taunted him at the Purple Wedding about his dealings with the Iron Bank.   Had Tywin stayed on as Hand, Margaery could have ruled Tommen in their chambers, continued parading around Kings Landing shaking hands and kissing babies, the only down side being Loras would have had to marry Cersei.   But I wonder if Olenna had some sort of longterm plan for that, I doubt she was happy with the idea of Cersei and the Lannisters getting their hooks into Highgarden.

 

What bothers me about the plan is that while I can see where it would have made sense if Tywin had lived, and it wasn't completely unrealistic to expect him to at least live long enough for Tommen to be more mature, it's such a huge risk to take when your family is so unable to work without you and when Cersei is so dangerous. Even if Cersei was more restrained during Olenna's time in King's Landing, they must have heard the rumors that Cersei killed Robert, and known that this helped lead to absolute carnage (babies being slaughtered in their homes, rioting, wholesale slaughter). As soon as Tywin died, Olenna should have gotten back there, rather than just assuming Margaery marrying Tommen was all it took.

I've always considered Loras a very ill-defined character, even in the book, so his portrayal on the show doesn't bother me.      The Faith Militant wasn't armed when he began cavorting with his friend, hence why Oberyn was able to do it last season.  I think it was just arrogance on his part/The Tyrells.   He thought his Sister was Queen-to-be, Tywin was gone, Tyrion on the run and Tommen easily misled and that made House Tyrell large and in charge.   Cersei isn't a long term planner like Olenna but she is destructive, House Tyrell didn't realize this.

 

If this were a brand new character, I could understand it more, but this is a man who already betrayed the Tyrells once. Loras getting back into bed with him again is just so incredibly stupid it throws me out of the story. I think they could have easily come up with another way to have Loras arrested for being gay. As it is it almost seems deliberately destructive and willful on his part, which makes me wonder if the show even feels we're supposed to hope Loras is not found guilty. 

[Advance35]

Did they know it was Olyver.   Outside of their little family sector the only people in on the plan were Varys, Sansa and that's it.  Maybe they assume someone overheard a conversation, it is Kings Landing after all.   I don't hold Loras not realizing Olyver spies for Littlefinger against him.

 

As soon as Tywin died, Olenna should have gotten back there, rather than just assuming Margaery marrying Tommen was all it took.

 

This I can agree with.  But the arrogance of the Tyrells includes Olenna.   I don't think she realized just how destructive and toxic House Lannister is.  Maybe they thought House Stark was just a bunch of imbeciles (and to an exten they were) but House Lannister is a destructive force and it looks like their collapse is threatening to pull House Tyrell with it.   All they saw was the potential for the ultimate social climb, they probably  never dreamed it would deteriorate this way.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Advance35

[Pete Martell]

Did they know it was Olyver.   Outside of their little family sector the only people in on the plan were Varys, Sansa and that's it.  Maybe they assume someone overheard a conversation, it is Kings Landing after all.   I don't hold Loras not realizing Olyver spies for Littlefinger against him.

 

They may not have known 100%, but Loras knew he confided the plot in Olyvar. They knew Olyvar was employed by Littlefinger, who had a vested interest in keeping Sansa close. To me that's enough to avoid resuming a sexual relationship with him.

 

To me it would have made more sense if they'd had Loras arrested this season for his season 3 affair with Olyvar. Olyvar still would have noticed the birthmark and remembered it. Margaery still could have lied, as she could have seen or heard about that affair.

 

That they didn't do it this way, and instead had Loras not even caring about being caught, is what makes me pause, because I don't really know what the point of this trial story is if we shouldn't want Loras or Margaery to be acquitted. If we're not supposed to care, then there are no real stakes. 

[Avaleigh]

They may not have known 100%, but Loras knew he confided the plot in Olyvar. They knew Olyvar was employed by Littlefinger, who had a vested interest in keeping Sansa close. To me that's enough to avoid resuming a sexual relationship with him.

 

To me it would have made more sense if they'd had Loras arrested this season for his season 3 affair with Olyvar. Olyvar still would have noticed the birthmark and remembered it. Margaery still could have lied, as she could have seen or heard about that affair.

 

That they didn't do it this way, and instead had Loras not even caring about being caught, is what makes me pause, because I don't really know what the point of this trial story is if we shouldn't want Loras or Margaery to be acquitted. If we're not supposed to care, then there are no real stakes. 

I think we are supposed to care. Loras has his life on the line because of his sexuality and Margaery is on the line because she tried to protect her brother. I definitely think that this makes them sympathetic. 

 

Since this is asoiaf though I think that the most exciting option in terms of a trial/trials is for Loras to try to save himself and Margaery but being unable to do so. To me it's the next best scenario to seeing Jaime fight for himself and Cersei.

 

If Loras ends up winning then the outcome isn't super exciting but if he ends up losing then all hell is going to break loose and that's what I'm looking forward to seeing. The options are more interesting if the Tyrells lose IMO. They can't keep winning forever. They fucked up by twice getting into bed with the Lannisters in the first place so surely it's time for them to suffer some real consequences. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Pete Martell]

If Loras ends up winning then the outcome isn't super exciting but if he ends up losing then all hell is going to break loose and that's what I'm looking forward to seeing. 

 

One of the things for me is that this Loras seems so disconnected from knight duties that I'd be shocked if he did win a trial by combat. I know they had him doing that stuff again right before his arrest, but it's just something I can't really envision. 

[Lady S.]

They may not have known 100%, but Loras knew he confided the plot in Olyvar. They knew Olyvar was employed by Littlefinger, who had a vested interest in keeping Sansa close. To me that's enough to avoid resuming a sexual relationship with him.

 

 

How did Loras know that, though? Yes, Olyvar works in the brothel publicly but it seems like his being planted as Loras's squire is just one of those plot devices we're not supposed to question and pretend the characters didn't either. His roles as paid whore/spy and Tyrell free boytoy have never been shown intersecting outside of that one scene with LF, even though his day job really shouldn't be a secret. But Ramsay Snow publicly flaying dozens upon dozens of people really shouldn't be a secret either, so I think this is meant to be the same kind of contrivance. 

[Pete Martell]

How did Loras know that, though? Yes, Olyvar works in the brothel publicly but it seems like his being planted as Loras's squire is just one of those plot devices we're not supposed to question and pretend the characters didn't either. His roles as paid whore/spy and Tyrell free boytoy have never been shown intersecting outside of that one scene with LF, even though his day job really shouldn't be a secret. But Ramsay Snow publicly flaying dozens upon dozens of people really shouldn't be a secret either, so I think this is meant to be the same kind of contrivance. 

 

Loras knew only a select few people knew about the plans to marry Sansa. One of them had direct ties to Littlefinger. I'd think anyone with half a brain would avoid any closeness with someone they told such secrets to with said secrets being revealed soon after. 

 

Even if we're not supposed to think it's stupid, I can't help thinking it, and seeing the family as idiotic.

[Constantinople]

Anyone know why GRRM named the family Tyrell?

 

I ask because Sir James Tyrell is often "credited" as the person who killed the Princes in the Tower (Edward V and his younger brother, Richard, Duke of York).

[Lady S.]

Loras knew only a select few people knew about the plans to marry Sansa. One of them had direct ties to Littlefinger. I'd think anyone with half a brain would avoid any closeness with someone they told such secrets to with said secrets being revealed soon after. 

 

Even if we're not supposed to think it's stupid, I can't help thinking it, and seeing the family as idiotic.

Oh, it's definitely stupid, I'm just saying I don't think anyone who hasn't been inside LF's brothel is supposed to know Olyvar is his man, stupid as that may be. Why else would no one mention this connection either in 5.01 or after Loras's arrest? They're treating it like he was just caught with an actual squire and actually act surprised that Olyvar turned on him to save his own skin.

 

Constantinople, sure, it's a real name and the Wars of the Roses are an inspiration for this series, but I don't really see any meaning beyond that. I guess Martin just liked the name?

[Advance35]

I posted elsewhere, but I'm loving House Tyrell this season.   Olenna looks like she wants to scream, things are falling apart so spectacularly.

 

I loved her meeting with Baelish.   She isn't up to stomaching any pleasantries with a little worm like LF.  "We murdered a King, and should my House fall, I'll have nothing to hide."   And her being smart enough to arrange insurance before her meeting with Baelish.   Maybe she heard the gossip about the fate of Lyssa Arryn and thought it all smelled fishy.   Her "Should I meet with an accident in your broken little flesh market........" LOL.   I know Olenna probably laments that the rest of her House isn't as smart as she is.  "I should have known you were back in the Captial when things started to go wrong."

 

Also liked Olenna's match off with the Sparrow and how if he likes Equality everyone in Kings Landing will go hungry.   And when they do she'll make sure that the poor are made aware of who's to blame.   The Sparrow was right, these Great Houses play games with the fates and lives of the Smaller Folk with little thought or care and I'd imagine the High Sparrow could rip away that particular curtain to expose that truth to Kings Landing and every place else.

 

Margaery isn't used to being mistreated.   Sansa has suffered worse and managed to keep her composure or that Lady Like Facade, even when resentment boiled beneath.   I'm starting to feel like Sansa may end up being a better game player than Margaery.   A big part of it is how you adapt or handle things when they don't go your way IMO.

 

No sign or word from Mace.

[Avaleigh]

It would be just like stupid Mace to luck out and not even realize that he was moments away from death at the hands of Meryn Trant. You guys have convinced me that he's somehow going to make it back to KL alive, probably so that Arya can stowaway with him as has been suggested. 

 

I can't see what purpose Mace could possible serve apart from delivering the news

that Meryn Trant is dead so there's now an open spot in the Kingsguard for Gregorstein. Although honestly the KG only being able to fight for the Queens might not even be an issue now on the show now that Loras is involved.

 

[Constantinople]

It would be just like stupid Mace to luck out and not even realize that he was moments away from death at the hands of Meryn Trant. You guys have convinced me that he's somehow going to make it back to KL alive, probably so that Arya can stowaway with him as has been suggested.

Assuming Arya kills Meryn Trant, I wonder if Mace will believe he was the intended victim, just as, in the show, Tywin believed the Amory Lorch's assassin intended to kill Tywin or to send Tywin a message, when in fact it had nothing (directly) to do with Tywin.

 

Edited to change Mance to Mace because I'm pretty sure Mance won't be visiting Braavos.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Constantinople

[Advance35]

Thought I would drop in on this topic since House Tyrell has definitely had to work this season.   We've reached just after the half-way point and all things considered I think House Tyrell is doing ok.

Olenna seems to have a place on the "Small Council" and the Highgarden Heirs are being released out of the High Sparrow's custody (I assume Loras as well).  During the stand-off, though it was Tyrell soldiers that stormed the Sept, I notice, while Jaimie was up on the platform arguing with the High Sparrow, Olenna signaled Mace to have the soldiers stand down.  I think she saw which way the wind was blowing, and the public triumph of the High Sparrow will now be thought of, as against House Lannister as opposed to House Tyrell.   Jaimie lost to the High Sparrow in front of all of Kings Landing and he lost before the Court when he was stripped of his Kings Guard standing and ordered out of the city to Riverrun.

While Margaery has made a reluctant ally out of the High Sparrow.   She had to feed him Tommen and I don't think House Tyrell will like sharing influence over Tommen with a different power player but it allowed Margaery to escape without enduring a walk of shame or facing a trial like Cersei.   I've know doubt that eventually Olenna and Margaery will scheme up some way to get the High Sparrow out of favor.   But House Tyrell continues to win while many others around them do not.

Hat Tip

[Constantinople]

Lady Olenna is still alive, but there won't be any more Tyrells, so

Goodbye Mace

Goodbye Loras

and most of all, the one who was smart enough to figure something was wrong

Goodbye Margaery

Disturbing to think that Natalie Dormer was born in the same year in which this song was released.

[Advance35]

I still can't believe House Tyrell is finished.  I did think Margaery would make it out somehow.  By "out" I mean i thought she would survive the whole saga.  Not as a Queen but........God.

And poor Olenna.  I have know doubt the loss of Mace, Loras and Margaery broke her heart but she is one of the toughest people in this saga because she just donned her black but she's not going to go fetal until she puts a stop to Cersei.   She may be a senior westerosi citizen but she is and always will be HBIC.  Her theme song should be "Unbreakable."  You've got to have a core of steel to go on after something like that.  Though Olenna murdered Joffrey, Tyrion took the fall, which led to Tywin's murder and they were the only one's able to truly check Cersei.  I bet Olenna wishes she had poisoned BOTH Joffrey and Cersei now.  Or probably wishes she never let her family get mixed up with the Lannister's anyway.  Sigh.

I felt so bad for Margaery because she had a sense even when the whole trial began.   We saw her looking around for Cersei and she was the only one to put the pieces together on just how far Cersei would go.   I also notice she didn't run for the stairs when she shouted that they all had to get out of there, she ran to Loras  and started pulling him along with her.   And the FRUCKING Sparrows still wouldn't let her through.  The look she shared with her father broke my heart.   

I didn't even know I was so attached to the Tyrells.  Damn.

[Spartan Girl]

Think we might have to change the title of this thread now...

RIP Margaery.  You would have been a great queen.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Ambrosefolly]

If she somehow made it to when Dany arrived, she would have made a great member of small council and eventually, Hand of the Queen.

[jellysalmon]

Whoa I forgot that I made this topic. RIP Tyrells. You will be missed.

Honestly this was the most upsetting death for me since The Red Viper vs The Mountain. I too thought she would make it out alive, but not as Queen. I heard Natalie Dormer wanted out so she could do other projects though. And you're right, the fact that she goes to get her brother before trying to leave shows how much she cared for him. That's really what doomed her to begin with, her support of her brother. It was endearing that she stuck with him until the end.

I feel like if GRRM was writing this, he would have had Margaery to inspire Loras to fight through the Sparrows, only to have them blow up anyways. 

[Neko]

3 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

If she somehow made it to when Dany arrived, she would have made a great member of small council and eventually, Hand of the Queen.

Margaery wouldn't have been satisfied being Hand of the Queen.  Like Sansa, she was raised to be a queen herself, not exactly a ruler, but an influential figurehead who acted like a lady, did good deeds, and popped out heirs.  She played the game the way she knew how to play it and she played it well, but that doesn't mean she was on the same level of political scheming as Littlefinger or Tyrion.  HotQ would have been all wrong for her.

[Lady S.]

Margaery was outplayed in the end not just by Cersei blowing up the game board, but by the High Sparrow proving to be an uncooperative ally. Even before he refused to let them leave, it appeared that Loras's mutilation was not what she bargained for and was not at clear what freedom Big Bird really meant for "Brother Loras" to have once Cersei was convicted. 

I'm really glad poor Mace got to go out with some semblance of dignity and courage, refusing to escape without his children as Ser Kevan tried to push their way out.

[Constantinople]

8 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I'm really glad poor Mace got to go out with some semblance of dignity and courage, refusing to escape without his children as Ser Kevan tried to push their way out.

Lancel was sent away to retrieve Cesei from the Red Keep, or, given how well that worked last time, at least to warn her what would happen if she didn't show-up for her trial.  Kevan had no reason to believe that Lancel was still in the building, heroically trying to stop those candles from lighting the wildfire.

[Lady S.]

I didn't say anything about Kevan's motivations?

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, Lady S. said:

I didn't say anything about Kevan's motivations?

Sorry, I thought you were comparing Kevan unfavorably to Mace.  Otherwise, I didn't understand the reason for mentioning Kevan at all.

[Advance35]

Quote

I'm really glad poor Mace got to go out with some semblance of dignity and courage, refusing to escape without his children as Ser Kevan tried to push their way out.

Kevan was the last truly cooperative ally in House Lannister.  The Tyrells were greedy, sneaky, ruthless, scheming, shameless, morally fluid but even in the end you can tell they all loved each other.  I didn't notice until my rewatch that Kevan was trying to drag Mace Tyrell with him and Mace was refusing to go because he saw Margaery and Loras weren't going to make it out in time.   He's been such a simple character (no even in the same game hall as Olenna and Margaery, let alone Loras) but he wasn't leaving without them and you could tell it broke his heart, how it was going to end for his children.

And Margaery wanted to be THE Queen and I believe her when she told the High Sparrow that the things she did for the poor weren't sincere but in service to her family's climb BUT she was actually trying to save EVERYONE.  Not just Loras, she warned everyone to leave and I don't  think Cersei at her best, would have done the same.   And despite the cold dedication to revenge displayed by Olenna, I have know doubt that if possible, she would have preferred to have been with Mace, Loras and Margaery in the end as well.  I actually feel a twinge when I remember the last scene she had with Margaery.

[Lady S.]

30 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Sorry, I thought you were comparing Kevan unfavorably to Mace.  Otherwise, I didn't understand the reason for mentioning Kevan at all.

He was trying to escape with Mace and Mace resisted. Mace might have tried to run down to Loras and Marg if he wasn't boxed in by Kevan and the others trying to push the other way. I doubt Kevan could have escaped anyway, but he was stuck in the crowd next to Mace and struggling to get out by pushing Mace along. I didn't understand why they were in opposition there on my first watch, but on rewatch it made all their deaths sadder.

 

21 hours ago, jellysalmon said:

Honestly this was the most upsetting death for me since The Red Viper vs The Mountain. I too thought she would make it out alive, but not as Queen. I heard Natalie Dormer wanted out so she could do other projects though. 

According to Dormer's EW interview, she tried to get out early in s5 but they made her stick it out for s6, telling her Marg was going to be killed then anyway.

[BigBeagle]

I know we're going with house mottos with these threads, but I think this one needs to be renamed to "House Tyrell: the withered rose."

Edited June 28, 2016 by BigBeagle
Spelling is good

[paigow]

22 hours ago, BigBeagle said:

I know we're going with house mottos with these threads, but I think this one needs to be renamed to "House Tyrell: the withered rose."

"Burning Strong"

[Ambrosefolly]

Loras I found particularly saddening. He wasn't a particular strong game player, but I do think he tried to strengthen his own house and was more or less a good person. I loved his gratitude to the Hound after he saved his life.  Despite him being very, very gay, he was willing to go along with betrothals to Sansa and then Cersei, and I do believe he would have tried to produce heirs with either one of them, in order to continue the Tyrells. He just become a pawn in Cerise's game, and because of that petty bitch, he was starved, kept in a grimy cell, and tortured for months, and the last hour of his life he was physically tortured, to be burned to death, while Cersei looked in pure amusement of sticking it to Olenna.

[RedheadZombie]

I do feel for Olenna, although she had no problem killing Joffrey, versus simply breaking the betrothal.  She also stood by while Tyrion was on trial, while Oberyn died championing Tyrion, and no doubt while Sansa was being tortured by Cersei, if she hadn't escaped. 

In fact, the only thing I found likable about Olenna was her love for Margaery.  She despised her husband, whom she stole from her sister.  She was extremely dismissive of Mace and publically treated him like a moron.  And had little respect for the "pillow-biter" Loras.  Which led me to believe she had little use for men, and tolerated them as far as she could use them.

And as Advance35 pointed out upthread, in a way Olenna brought all of this about with her actions.  Her murder of Joffrey destabilized the Lannisters, and brought about the loss of Tyrion and Tywin.  Then Loras refused to be discrete, even though Margaery warned him and tried to rein him in, and he was arrested.  Even Margaery contributed to her demise by her very uncharacteristic humiliation of Cersei.  There was a lot of hubris in this family, and I guess they had a right to it.  They easily flipped sides and smoothly extricated themselves from any treason charges with Renly.  Margaery found it very easy to trash Renly's memory publically when the family turned pro-Lannister.  It seemed the Tyrell family always landed on their feet, until now.  And I have no doubt that they would have wormed their way into Dany's reign, if they'd lived to see it.  Maybe the political marriage would have been Loras and Dany.  At least Olenna will respect Dany since she's a female.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 0:04 PM, Advance35 said:

Kevan was the last truly cooperative ally in House Lannister.  The Tyrells were greedy, sneaky, ruthless, scheming, shameless, morally fluid but even in the end you can tell they all loved each other.  I didn't notice until my rewatch that Kevan was trying to drag Mace Tyrell with him and Mace was refusing to go because he saw Margaery and Loras weren't going to make it out in time.   He's been such a simple character (no even in the same game hall as Olenna and Margaery, let alone Loras) but he wasn't leaving without them and you could tell it broke his heart, how it was going to end for his children.

And Margaery wanted to be THE Queen and I believe her when she told the High Sparrow that the things she did for the poor weren't sincere but in service to her family's climb BUT she was actually trying to save EVERYONE.  Not just Loras, she warned everyone to leave and I don't  think Cersei at her best, would have done the same.   And despite the cold dedication to revenge displayed by Olenna, I have know doubt that if possible, she would have preferred to have been with Mace, Loras and Margaery in the end as well.  I actually feel a twinge when I remember the last scene she had with Margaery.

I agree with everything, except I don't think Olenna would have chosen to die with them.  She really only seemed to love Margaery out of that group.  She has many other granddaughters that we've seen on the show, and doesn't she have other children and grandsons as well?  She will ruthlessly gain her vengeance, and continue to keep her house strong.  And there's surely a tiny part of her that knows that this is what happens from all of her machinations.

[Advance35]

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I agree with everything, except I don't think Olenna would have chosen to die with them.  She really only seemed to love Margaery out of that group.  She has many other granddaughters that we've seen on the show, and doesn't she have other children and grandsons as well?  She will ruthlessly gain her vengeance, and continue to keep her house strong.  And there's surely a tiny part of her that knows that this is what happens from all of her machinations.

Maybe I am taking dramatic license and being swept up in the devastation of Cersei's actions. LOL. I do think she loved the men in her family though.  I mean she was furious over Loras's imprisonment.   In season 5, when she went to speak with the High Sparrow in the Great Sept (On rewatch I'm going to get a chill at just about every scene there, Tyrion/Sansa's wedding, Joffrey/Margaery or when Cersei took Olenna on that tour, Margaery/Tommen, good lord) I just think she took them for granted because they weren't useful in "The Game."   She was definitely more demonstrative with Margaery.

I agree with you that she does have an inner-coldness.  Upon rewatch, when Cersei and Olenna are walking through the Great Sept (with their arms linked!!!!) and Olenna says "We mother's try to keep our son's from the grave, but they do seem to yearn for it", knowing what's ahead does allow Olenna to come off as cruel (even if it is Cersei and Joffrey).

In terms of her dying with them, she did tell Margaery "I'll NEVER leave you." when Margaery wanted to protect Olenna from the High Sparrow.  But on reflection, you may be right in that Olenna will always veer more towards the practical even in the face of her own genuine emotion.  I know some say she would be considered a villainess if she were operating against anyone other then the Lannisters, but I just love her so much.   I was worried we would see her keel over dead when she heard the news.  But other than a quick crack in her voice and her wearing all black, she is still out their maneuvering, intent on making sure the reign of Cersei Lannister is a short one.

Were those her Grand Daughters or just Margaery's Ladies in Waiting?   And I wonder if a majority of them were in the Great Sept when Cersei played her trump card.

[slf]

On 6/28/2016 at 3:04 PM, Advance35 said:

This may be unpopular but, I think House Tyrell would OWN the Seven Kingdoms had they formed alliances with House Baratheon (or if Renly hadn't been murdered) or House Stark (The Tyrells would have been playing center, south and in every direction).   The only mistake they made was underestimating just how nihilistic all things Lannister are.

Margaery Tyrell marrying Robb Stark is one of my favorite AUs to think about. Her political cunning combined with his military genius...they'd both be alive and King and Queen. They could have crushed the Lannisters from either side, North and South. Walder Frey would not have thought about the Red Wedding at all. And Margaery would have brought the bounty of Highgarden with her to the North. Sansa could've been saved and she and Margaery would be good-sisters, Catelyn would be alive, Arya might very well be home by now, Rickon too, and Margaery and Robb would be having hot sex.

[Lady S.]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:58 PM, Advance35 said:

Were those her Grand Daughters or just Margaery's Ladies in Waiting?   And I wonder if a majority of them were in the Great Sept when Cersei played her trump card.

I think one of them called her grandmother when they were showing off their rosy needlework. Not it really matters, there must be other roses left in the Reach, but the show isn't going to introduce any more Tyrells now. Olenna will still be the face of House Tyrell whether the actual lord is a younger son, another grandson, a nephew or cousin of her husband's, etc. etc.

On 6/29/2016 at 0:27 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

Loras I found particularly saddening. He wasn't a particular strong game player, but I do think he tried to strengthen his own house and was more or less a good person. I loved his gratitude to the Hound after he saved his life.  Despite him being very, very gay, he was willing to go along with betrothals to Sansa and then Cersei, and I do believe he would have tried to produce heirs with either one of them, in order to continue the Tyrells. 

He also helped save the city (including Cersei and Tommen) by leading the Tyrell charge in Blackwater (while wearing Renly's armor). 

(Bronn should watch out, King's Landing is not kind to its Blackwater veterans.)
 

[Hecate7]

Olenna wouldn't say that her house faced collapse simply because Margaery and Loras were in prison, nor that Cersei had taken the future from her, if she had any other grandchildren. House Tyrell is apparently extinct, once Olenna dies.

[Advance35]

Maybe there are cadette branches that Olenna hasn't had any interest in.   I doubt she ALONE could rule a Kingdom right?

I still remain super impressed that the devastating loss hasn't made her sloppy.  She DEFINITELY wants revenge but she isn't going to kamikaze herself.  She seems to still be interested in playing things smartly.  Sneering about why she should get involved with Dorne.   I guess it just feels good to see her still wheeling and dealing.   And this is pure speculation, but I don't think the boats sailing as part of Dany's fleet is the last we are going to see of House Tyrell.  I fully expect Olenna to still be around next year and I found in interesting that the Show Runners gave the impression we were going to see evolution in Olenna's character now that her future "isn't what she thought it would be."

[Lady S.]

Poor Finn.

[Advance35]

Awwww.

I'll forever mourn that we never got to see what would have happened if Dany had come to Westeros when the Tyrells were at the height of their power, or before Cersei did her checkmate.   I personally don't think House Tyrell would have just surrendered The Iron Throne to her when they worked so hard to get Margaery as Queen.

Next Season I hope to see Olenna work to make arrangements for her House in terms of succession.  I'd also like at least one scene showing how she is able to keep her Bannermen in line.   I want to see her interact with the following characters at least once/once more:  Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger and Sansa.

Still can't get over the TRAUMATIC reversal of fortune.  She kind of snidely offered her condolences to Sansa on her losses (while setting her up for a frame job) and you can tell she patted herself on the back for her ability to guide her family through "The Game" only to have it all crumble around them.   All those schemes and maneuvers, only for House Tyrell to be on the verge of extinction anyway.    Karma can be a blip.

Still love her though.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Advance35

[Ambrosefolly]

I will say this, the physical casting (though I am guessing unintentionally) between Diana Rigg and Natalie Dormer was pretty amazing.

[screamin]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:52 PM, RedheadZombie said:

  She was extremely dismissive of Mace and publically treated him like a moron. 

In her defense, Mace did seem to actually be a moron.

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And had little respect for the "pillow-biter" Loras.  Which led me to believe she had little use for men, and tolerated them as far as she could use them.

Don't forget 'sword-swallower'. Honestly, I never got the feeling that she was intending to convey despising with that. IIRC, she was intending to show judgemental Tywin by using the VERY descriptive words that she knew very well what Loras was about and she didn't care - and that therefore Tywin could not shame or frighten the family with it.

I do think she had affection for the men in the family but felt they were fools - Mace and Loras both - for hooking the family into dangerous, ambitious plans to espouse them with kings. She turned out to be right about that.

[Advance35]

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I do think she had affection for the men in the family but felt they were fools - Mace and Loras both - for hooking the family into dangerous, ambitious plans to espouse them with kings. She turned out to be right about that.

The sad thing is I think she tried to account for that.  She knew Mace and Loras had more ambition then guile, so her right hand in the family was always Margaery.  I think she saw Joffrey as the X-Factor for the whole thing and that's why she poisoned him, he was to mercurial to be trusted.  Tywin and Tyrion were shrewd and ambitious but they recognized the value of House Tyrell.  They might be able to one-up Mace, Loras and even Margaery in ongoing battles for control  of Kings Landing but they would never harm a Tyrell because they knew they wouldn't be able to stave off enemies or hold the line without the help of Highgarden.   She couldn't have predicted the sequence of events that would follow after assassinating Joffrey.

She told Margaery that Cersei was "vicious but not stupid", unfortunately she was wrong in that Cersei is vicious AND stupid with a mixture of insane added.

It strikes me that we heard Olenna tell Ellaria that "Cersei stole the future from me."  Tywin is credited with being obsessive about his House Legacy and clearly Olenna is the same.   She has a much less dysfunctional and closer rapport with her family but she actually is very much like Tywin.

[qtpye]

On 6/27/2016 at 1:59 AM, Advance35 said:

And poor Olenna.  I have know doubt the loss of Mace, Loras and Margaery broke her heart but she is one of the toughest people in this saga because she just donned her black but she's not going to go fetal until she puts a stop to Cersei.   She may be a senior westerosi citizen but she is and always will be HBIC.  Her theme song should be "Unbreakable."  You've got to have a core of steel to go on after something like that.  Though Olenna murdered Joffrey, Tyrion took the fall, which led to Tywin's murder and they were the only one's able to truly check Cersei.  I bet Olenna wishes she had poisoned BOTH Joffrey and Cersei now.  Or probably wishes she never let her family get mixed up with the Lannister's anyway.  Sigh.

At this point she has nothing to lose and only her vengeance to sustain her.  She could be like Beatrix Kiddo in those "Kill Bill" movies.

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, screamin said:

I do think she had affection for the men in the family but felt they were fools - Mace and Loras both - for hooking the family into dangerous, ambitious plans to espouse them with kings. She turned out to be right about that.

She appeared to have no issues with King Tommen, the marriage which ultimately got Marg, Mace, and Loras killed. Given her effortless dismissal of Mace in their first scene together and the fact that Marg was her protege, I find it hard to believe she didn't support Marg's regal ambitions at all or that she was powerless to stop the Lannister/Tyrell alliance altogether. She's always been portrayed as the head of this House. 

[screamin]

She's still a woman, and the men are legally the heads of the house. Mace rashly makes public promises to back Renly over Stannis at Loras' behest, and it's a fact - however much a Queen of Thorns she is, she has no authority to countermand him, regardless of how much hell she gives him behind the scenes. House Tyrell would lose all credibility in misogynist Westeros if he went back on his pledged word under his mother's scolding. Her role is to work behind the scenes and do damage control, wearily making sure the Tyrells have the money to cash the checks Mace's mouth wrote.