Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[GrailKing]

On 6/30/2016 at 10:29 AM, Maximum Taco said:

Honestly I don't think that Sansa, deep down, wants the lordship or the crown. She does want to be acknowledged by Jon (and the rest of the Northerners) for her contributions, and listened to and respected. She definitely feels snubbed, but I think it's more of a "Hey, I helped too here. Little credit? Anybody?"

But logically Jon in power is only good for Sansa. He's never going to turn her away, or put her into the cold to solidify his claim. And once he marries and has a child there will be no more suitors lusting after her for her claim to Winterfell and Jon, who she does trust to do the good and decent thing, will be the one with official power over any requests for her hand. He'd never sell her to someone she disapproves of, not after her ordeal with Ramsay.

I can't help but feel this all could've been sorted by a frank and honest conversation between Sansa and Jon. But of course Jon is too thickskulled to see that there is even a problem, and Littlefinger is going to use that to try and drive a wedge between them.

To be honest I think the snub that hurt the worst, was Lady Mormont calling her Lady Lannister or Lady Bolton.

She replies, I'm a Stark, did what I had to to survive; but Lady Mormont just tossed it aside.

[SeanC]

On 7/3/2016 at 2:08 AM, bluvelvet said:

I had assumed that she was the de facto Lady of Wintefell since there isn't really any one else around to fill that role, but nice to have it confirmed.  I also don't see Jon taking on the duties that would normally fall to the Lady...

That doesn't mean "Lady of Winterfell" as in "consort of the Lord", it means "Lady of Winterfell" as in "owner of the castle".

[bluvelvet]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That doesn't mean "Lady of Winterfell" as in "consort of the Lord", it means "Lady of Winterfell" as in "owner of the castle".

I got the latter, she obviously couldn't be "consort of the Lord". I probably should have been more clear in my statement.

Edited July 5, 2016 by bluvelvet

[GrailKing]

Question,

When Jon and Sansa are on the rampart at Winterfell, discussing getting the room ready for Sansa as Lady of Winterfell; is it the same room her rape happened?

I can't remember.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, doram said:

No. At the time, Roose was alive and had the Lord's room. 

 

Also, in the books, Catelyn had her own rooms separate from Ned. 

 

Having both a Lady of Winterfell and a King of Winter is ridiculous and shows how little D&D understand the source material. 

OK, thanks.

It's King in the North, not Winter, and since Jon isn't legitimatized he can't inherit Winterfell that's a right by birth, I think they got that correct.

[Eyes High]

On 7/3/2016 at 2:34 AM, GrailKing said:

To be honest I think the snub that hurt the worst, was Lady Mormont calling her Lady Lannister or Lady Bolton.

She replies, I'm a Stark, did what I had to to survive; but Lady Mormont just tossed it aside.

I think Sansa expected that her ringing declaration of Starkness to be her slam dunk, so Lyanna essentially shrugging her shoulders in response must have stung. Having Lyanna stand up and endorse Jon for KITN in spite of his bastard blood on the basis that Ned Stark's blood ran through his veins--when Sansa was sitting right there--probably stung even more.

If Lyanna is back for Season 7, I'm wondering if there won't be a moment where Sansa confronts Lyanna and is like "What the hell?"

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, doram said:

King in the North and King of Winter are the same title. King Tormund, the last King before Robb,  bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror and got demoted to mere Lord of Winterfell. 

Robb was Lord Stark when Eddard died and he became King when the North declared independence. No one held the title of Lord of Winterfell until he died. 

 

So no, HBO did not get it right and probably just threw in that Lady of Winterfell bit to pacify the egregious goof of having John crowned in the presence of Sansa. In the books, Sansa is nowhere near Winterfell when the castle is reclaimed by Stannis. D & D have veered so far off, they're making things up. 

I think they got it right, Lord and Lady of Winterfell are a birth right, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell until Bran returns and gets married or Jon becomes legitimized and gets married as of this point he is elected based on what he did in battle and at the wall.

Sansa by being true born of Ned and Cat is the Lady of Winterfell and unfortunately by marriage to Ramsey, until such time

a will is produced

.

Jon has blood of Lyanna.

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, doram said:

King in the North and King of Winter are the same title. King Tormund, the last King before Robb,  bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror and got demoted to mere Lord of Winterfell. 

Robb was Lord Stark when Eddard died and he became King when the North declared independence. No one held the title of Lord of Winterfell until he died. 

So no, HBO did not get it right and probably just threw in that Lady of Winterfell bit to pacify the egregious goof of having John crowned in the presence of Sansa. In the books, Sansa is nowhere near Winterfell when the castle is reclaimed by Stannis. D & D have veered so far off, they're making things up. 

Historically, yes, the Lord of Winterfell was the line of the King in the North after they got demoted.

But in this case, what has happened is that the legitimate line continues to own Winterfell, with Sansa (really Bran, but he's not around at the moment and everybody seems to have forgotten about him) being the Lady of Winterfell.  But essentially a cadet Stark line has been elected as King in the North, now a separate title.  Historically the German Emperor was also the King of Prussia, but in theory one of the other monarchs within the German Empire (e.g., the King of Bavaria) could be crowned Emperor, and that wouldn't inherently make them King of Prussia too.

Now, this new distinction between the titles would, in the long term, be a recipe for political instability, but I don't think anybody was thinking about that in the moment when Jon was crowned.

Edited July 5, 2016 by SeanC

[Advance35]

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Now, this new distinction between the titles would, in the long term, be a recipe for political instability, but I don't think anybody was thinking about that in the moment when Jon was crowned.

Just Littlefinger and Sansa likely.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think Sansa expected that her ringing declaration of Starkness to be her slam dunk, so Lyanna essentially shrugging her shoulders in response must have stung. Having Lyanna stand up and endorse Jon for KITN in spite of his bastard blood on the basis that Ned Stark's blood ran through his veins--when Sansa was sitting right there--probably stung even more.

If Lyanna is back for Season 7, I'm wondering if there won't be a moment where Sansa confronts Lyanna and is like "What the hell?"

Sansa in her way is Ned, but she took the North for granted, never thinking about what Robb's actions caused.

[Luckylyn]

18 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Sansa in her way is Ned, but she took the North for granted, never thinking about what Robb's actions caused.

She clearly seemed to expect that her walking in and saying she's a Stark would be enough to win support and was thrown that Robb's actions had eroded so much the Stark's reputation.   One thing Sansa must do is not be so dependent on being a Stark.  That's where Jon has an advantage because he has never been able to rely on being a Stark alone because of his position as a bastard.  Jon has always had to take action and prove himself to others.  It was his willingness to fight in addition to his Stark blood that got Jon named King.  Just being a Stark isn't enough to gain respect. 

Sansa needs to publicly take action to show her own worth.  Sansa speaks up privately but needs to be more open publicly.   Like in the Battle of the Bastards when she said nothing during Jon's meeting with his advisors when she could have just spoken up.  Later she lashes out at Jon for not asking her opinion but I think it was up to her to just go ahead and talk during the meetings.  Jon's advisors don't wait for his permission to speak their minds, and Sansa needs to be more like that to really make a place for herself.  She could have spoken up with Jon before he was named King of the North but said nothing.  Lady Mormont's the one who spoke up and boldly pushed Jon forward.  If Sansa insists on subterfuge over open action than that means she doesn't get credit publicly and doesn't get to be resentful for not getting it.  Jon recognized her contribution and told her how important it was.  If that is not enough, than Sansa needs to be more vocal with more people. 

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

She clearly seemed to expect that her walking in and saying she's a Stark would be enough to win support and was thrown that Robb's actions had eroded so much the Stark's reputation.   One thing Sansa must do is not be so dependent on being a Stark.  That's where Jon has an advantage because he has never been able to rely on being a Stark alone because of his position as a bastard.  Jon has always had to take action and prove himself to others.  It was his willingness to fight in addition to his Stark blood that got Jon named King.  Just being a Stark isn't enough to gain respect. 

Sansa needs to publicly take action to show her own worth.  Sansa speaks up privately but needs to be more open publicly.   Like in the Battle of the Bastards when she said nothing during Jon's meeting with his advisors when she could have just spoken up.  Later she lashes out at Jon for not asking her opinion but I think it was up to her to just go ahead and talk during the meetings.  Jon's advisors don't wait for his permission to speak their minds, and Sansa needs to be more like that to really make a place for herself.  She could have spoken up with Jon before he was named King of the North but said nothing.  Lady Mormont's the one who spoke up and boldly pushed Jon forward.  If Sansa insists on subterfuge over open action than that means she doesn't get credit publicly and doesn't get to be resentful for not getting it.  Jon recognized her contribution and told her how important it was.  If that is not enough, than Sansa needs to be more vocal with more people. 

It's part of her upbringing isn’t it; she was always taught to wait and disagree in private, but in war you can't wait and you can't be a lady at certain times.

Jon can help her with that, so could Lady Mormont and Davos, Brienne, Pod even Tormond.

She has good people around her she just need to open her eyes, which she might and take a chance on trusting that group.

[Advance35]

If you think about it, Sansa has been training at one particular game or at least, been observing one particular game, both in Kings Landing and The Vale, but now she's on a completely different field and required to pay a completely different sport.   In the places she has been for the last few years, nobody is ever on the up and up.  Nobody is ever purposely transparent about what they want.   It'll be interesting to see if she can assimilate back to the northern environment.  I myself have my doubts.

And it was pointed out on a different thread.   Momentary opposition to Jon/Sansa/Northern/Vale unit will at some point be Dany (Tyrion, Varys, Olenna and Ellaria) BUT what would happen if Petyr/Sansa worked to destabilize Dany's little consortium, say like, letting out the secret that Olenna murdered Joffrey and allowed Sansa and Tyrion to take the fall for it?    The writers may not want to spend time on it (which is a shame because I think it is the politics and scheming that put this show on the map, as opposed to the more "Dungeons & Dragons" aspect) but it would be juicy if they could find the time.

[Luckylyn]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

It's part of her upbringing isn’t it; she was always taught to wait and disagree in private, but in war you can't wait and you can't be a lady at certain times.

Jon can help her with that, so could Lady Mormont and Davos, Brienne, Pod even Tormond.

She has good people around her she just need to open her eyes, which she might and take a chance on trusting that group.

Trust is Sansa's big hurdle for understandable reasons.  She has been hurt so much that she distrusts even those like Jon who would do anything to protect her.  She couldn't be candid when she was a hostage in King's Landing and still has not lost that habit of holding back.  She acknowledged that she didn't know why she didn't just tell Jon about the help from the Vale coming.  She had no excuse beyond her own defense mechanism to keep secrets.  She's finally in a safe place where she can speak up truthfully, and she still resorts to subterfuge.  The pain of her past really is going to have lasting consequences for Sansa.  Sometimes keeping quiet can save your life and sometimes it can do you harm.  Jon can help Sansa be more open and Sansa could help him against the kind of subterfuge Cersei and Littlefinger use.  That requires Sansa to be open with Jon which she is struggling with a lot.  She could save or doom Jon depending on her next choices. 

[Advance35]

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She couldn't be candid when she was a hostage in King's Landing and still has not lost that habit of holding back.  She acknowledged that she didn't know why she didn't just tell Jon about the help from the Vale coming.  She had no excuse beyond her own defense mechanism to keep secrets. 

 I know that frustrated some people but I thought that was a very nuanced and interesting character beat for the writers to give the Sansa character.  I also didn't find it to be contrived but very organic in terms of everything Sansa has been through over the last few years.   I actually think Sansa's character trajectory is one of the most enjoyable within the show.   On an intellectual level she knows she can trust Jon but on an emotional and instinctual level conceal and obscure are her auto reactions. 

Her decisions from a game player's perspective aren't always the wisest but I think it would be poor story telling if she morphed into Olenna Tyrell.   Her managing to fool the Lords of The Vale proved that there is a crafty player in there but at the time it made her over-confident and she thought she could handle any situation she found herself in, until she got to know the real Boltons.   After everything she's been through with them she's now someone that when crossed, can and will (if given the opportunity) take brutal and even, savage, revenge.

GoT HR Article

ST thinks that the truth about Jon Snow's pedigree would make Jon/Sansa closer.   She thinks Sansa has been stand-offish with Jon in the past, out of loyalty to her mother (something I find understandable).

[TxanGoddess]

See, I don't think Sansa was hanging on to some sort of an emotional vulnerability in withholding the knowledge about the LF and the Vale from Jon.  I think she was being sort of clever, thinking that it would be easier to get forgiveness than permission, and if that was what she was thinking, she was 100% correct. 

I mean, let's think of how the conversation could have gone if she had told Jon in advance.

Jon:  We need men.

Sansa:  Hey, I can get LF to bring the Vale.

Jon:  No way am I depending on the guy who pimped you out to the Boltons, we'll have to rely on some other much less probable means.   

Then she would have already played her Vale hand openly and been forced into an outright rift with Jon to get them there. 

Now, this might be her underestimating Jon.  He's got that Stark man honor thing going of course, but it seems possible sometimes that he has developed a more pragmatic viewpoint than say, Ned.  Or at least than the Ned-during-peacetime that he grew up with and revered.  Still, I think we're only looking at about a fifty/fifty shot he would have said, "Yeah okay, it sucks but go on and bring him in."

I also think that her apology to Jon for withholding the information in e10 shows some evidence for this viewpoint too.  She says she should have told him, but is then strangely silent on why she didn't.  Most people like to offer some sort of explanation when they have to say "I'm sorry."  The absence of it on her part is really palpable.

I posted this in the e05 thread too ftr, but since I was the last person in the world to see this past season I think it will end up mostly unnoticed there.

[Advance35]

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I also think that her apology to Jon for withholding the information in e10 shows some evidence for this viewpoint too.  She says she should have told him, but is then strangely silent on why she didn't.  Most people like to offer some sort of explanation when they have to say "I'm sorry."  The absence of it on her part is really palpable.

I think that's a very interesting observation, I didn't even notice that.

I don't know what Jon would have done.  He knows how untrustworthy LF is but didn't seem bothered by his presence in Winterfell though that could be because of his selection as "King of the North."  

Though she doesn't trust anyone, it's promising that Sansa at least confided in Jon about the worth of Littlefingers character.   Jon know's he's dirt as far as Sansa's concerned so he'll hopefully manage to cotton to any kind of scheme cooking under his nose.  Though they will clearly have a different dynamic with the character, LF is a common enemy for lack of a better description.   I see LF and Sansa being like a Lannister/Tyrell alliance (circa Season 3).  Neither trust the other but they are willing to work together.

[Luckylyn]

I thought Sansa made it clear she didn't buy his excuses.  There was a line about how she thought he must be a fool or her enemy.  I hope she doesn't trust him and just sees him as someone who can be useful.  Littlefinger has been helpful but he has also shown he'd use her to her detriment when it suits him.  Jon has warned her how important trust is to their survival and he has done nothing to hurt or use her.   He has trusted her by letting her be part of his meetings with advisors, and he's candid with her.  If Sansa trusts Littlefinger over Jon that just seems like cutting her nose off despite her face because Littlefinger will simply use her but Jon would aid her without strings.

[Advance35]

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But does he (know how untrustworthy LF is)? Does Sansa? 

This is a fair point since I don't think Sansa realizes how dangerous Littlefinger really is.   She knows he isn't to be trusted and VIA her conversation with Jon in 6x10, Jon said "You told me Lord Bearish sold you to the Boltons." So while he didn't know the level of depravity to which the Boltons would stoop, Sansa still seems to blame him on some level.

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Littlefinger has been helpful but he has also shown he'd use her to her detriment when it suits him.  Jon has warned her how important trust is to their survival and he has done nothing to hurt or use her.   He has trusted her by letting her be part of his meetings with advisors, and he's candid with her.  If Sansa trusts Littlefinger over Jon that just seems like cutting her nose off despite her face because Littlefinger will simply use her but Jon would aid her without strings.

True.  Though I think the interaction or lack there of when it comes to Lysa Arynn and The Blackfish has allowed Sansa's view on Family to be a little less sacred then one would hope.  Speculation is just that, but I'm thinking Sansa will turn on LF but it will be Jon who kills him.  I can't articulate the details but I could just see it going that way.

[Advance35]

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I thought Sansa made it clear she didn't buy his excuses.  There was a line about how she thought he must be a fool or her enemy.  I hope she doesn't trust him and just sees him as someone who can be useful.  Littlefinger has been helpful but he has also shown he'd use her to her detriment when it suits him.  Jon has warned her how important trust is to their survival and he has done nothing to hurt or use her.   He has trusted her by letting her be part of his meetings with advisors, and he's candid with her.  If Sansa trusts Littlefinger over Jon that just seems like cutting her nose off despite her face because Littlefinger will simply use her but Jon would aid her without strings.

It's not so much trust, as I think Sansa has a strong appreciation for what Littlefinger can do.   As far as Sansa was concerned, Joffrey and House Lannister were invincible, they had murdered and destroyed (with help but that's not something she's fully aware of yet) the most powerful people she had ever known and loved, so I think part of her will always be in awe of him.   Between Tywin, Olenna, Tyrion, Lyssa, Lord Royce and Cersei, he's proven he can play the high and mighty of Westeros like a collection of cheap violins.   She'd rather have LF with her then against her.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Sansa is thinking beyond Winter.  Granted LF won't be worth his weight in gold against the Other's in a sword fight but she may be thinking there will be an "after the war" and what shape will House Stark be in when that time comes.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Advance35

[Hecate7]

On 6/26/2016 at 3:27 PM, Avaleigh said:

I can understand why people see Beauty and the Beast parallels with Sandor and Sansa but I don't think it means that they're ever going to have a romantic relationship. I agree too that if SanSan was the end game that they would have cast a different actor. I think the Hound might save Sansa's life again but that's as far as it will go.

*snip*

With Jon, it isn't about Sansa "offending" him for me. It's about her not being as loyal to him as he is to her on top of telling him that he's incapable of protecting himself or her on the eve of the battle for their lives.

But he IS incapable of protecting her. No one can protect her. She got that one right. It's ludicrous to take that statement as some kind of mistreatment of Jon. She's already had everything done to her, except murder.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Hecate7

[Advance35]

I think if Sansa's loyal to anyone it's the remaining Starks and that includes Jon HOWEVER I think her instinctual motivation will always be survival.  She has seen way to many reversals of fortune to ever feel completely safe or to truly trust anyone.   I can also understand Sansa's more cavalier attitude with the armed forces.  She spent a majority of time with people and in an environment where armies were abstract and far away.   Fates and fortunes were determined by whom could outmaneuver or out-scheme whom in Kings Landing.

I'm looking forward to word trickling to the North about everything that has happened in Kings Landing.  I'd be interested in Sansa's reaction to hearing about Cersei being crowned "Queen of the Seven Kingdoms".   I assume she and LF will know that Cersei is behind the murder of Margaery, Loras and the rest of the Kings Landing Royal Court.   But will Sansa still be sitting still and allowing Jon to chant "The White Walkers are coming, The White Walkers are coming" or will she be trying to make the emergence of the "Mad Queen" the priority for their assembled armies.

[Eyes High]

23 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I think if Sansa's loyal to anyone it's the remaining Starks and that includes Jon HOWEVER I think her instinctual motivation will always be survival.

Agreed. I believe that she truly wants to trust Jon and to give him her undivided loyalty, but she's been burned too many times by people who claimed to care about her. I think she'll be more inclined to value others' usefulness to her over their moral character or the purity of their intentions, which might explain why she hasn't kicked Littlefinger to the curb again as of 6x10 and why she is still so cagey about trusting Jon no matter how kind he is towards her.

I think Sansa will be agitating for action in the Riverlands once she gets wind of Brienne's failure to get the Blackfish on board (and of, I assume, the Blackfish's subsequent death). Jon will probably balk at taking any soldiers out of the North, where he believes they are desperately needed to fight the WW.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[Luckylyn]

On 8/1/2016 at 11:36 AM, Advance35 said:

  I'd be interested in Sansa's reaction to hearing about Cersei being crowned "Queen of the Seven Kingdoms".   I assume she and LF will know that Cersei is behind the murder of Margaery, Loras and the rest of the Kings Landing Royal Court.   But will Sansa still be sitting still and allowing Jon to chant "The White Walkers are coming, The White Walkers are coming" or will she be trying to make the emergence of the "Mad Queen" the priority for their assembled armies.

I think that could be the big conflict between Sansa and Jon.  He'll want to focus the Northern resources on fighting the White Walkers while Sansa will want to focus on the threat from Cersei.   That may be where Littlefinger can wedge himself between Sansa and Jon since Littlefinger's belief that the North wouldn't acknowledge Jon turned out to be wrong.  Plus, what will Cersei do?  I can't imagine she'll let the North remain independent without a fight.  She may force Jon's hand which could end up strengthening Jon and Sansa's alliance so they can work together to defeat the common threat.  I keep thinking Sansa is going to end up being important to what happens next in the Riverlands.   Edmund is too weak to lead and his reputation has been hurt among his own people because he allowed the Lannisters to take Riverrun.   The Frey's have been taken out by Arya.   There's an opportunity for Sansa to insert herself and gain control but she's going to need an army.  How she gets the forces she needs is the big question? 

[Advance35]

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I think that could be the big conflict between Sansa and Jon.  He'll want to focus the Northern resources on fighting the White Walkers while Sansa will want to focus on the threat from Cersei. 

And the sad and complicated thing is, they would both be right.   Sansa has seen Cersei up close and unfiltered, she knows what the woman is made of.  Or does she?  I think Sansa knows Cersei is irredeemably nasty and horrific at her core but I feel like even she will be stunned when she learns of what Cersei did in Kings Landing.    I think it will definitely be an issue because Jaimie reminded Brienne and the audience that Cersei STILL wants Sansa dead.   And in TWOW Littlefinger flat out told Sansa that word of what happened in The North will spread throughout the rest of the Seven Kingdoms very soon.   We also know that Cersei was having Qyburn send some of his "little birds" to the North.

Myrcella's murderers may be closer but I think Cersei is going to choose to have Sansa's head put on a spike first.

OT but I had to laugh at the fact that Littlefinger and Sansa are WINNING the GoT Election promo event.   They are making a good showing against both Dany/Tyrion AND Jon/Lyanna.  I've always enjoyed the interactions between LF/Sansa so this is really cool to see for me.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Advance35

[Advance35]

Re-Upping this thread because of the Premiere.  I'm trying to decide which direction Sansa's wit skews.  More towards Cersei or Olenna.  Her cattiness to Baelish was VERY entertaining and direct.  Which leans more Olenna, but it also had that strong bitter undercurrent that is pure Cersei.  His what would make you happy and her "peace and quiet."  As well as her "No need to seize the last word Lord Baelish, I'll just assume it was something clever." was high caliber enough to make me think Sansa might have been able to hold her own in the verbal joust of Kings Landing, if she hadn't been there as a prisoner.

Also interesting that the writers chose to emphasize that Sansa feels she "learned a lot" from Cersei.

I agreed with Sansa on what should be done with the Castles.  If you want to betray the Starks, all you have to do is make sure there is a potential fall guy in the family.  If you lose, the fall guy gets executed (just make sure it's not the family schemer) and for the rest of the Clan, no penalties, you get to keep your lands and castles, it's just back to the drawing board.  At least with Jon Snow large and in charge. Catelyn must be rolling in her grave.  Her and Ned's first born daughter told to shut her face in Winterfell. 

Though she and Jon do have good screen partner chemistry.

[Ambrosefolly]

While I agreed with Jon's decision to not take away the Umber and Kastarks homes, I don't fault her one bit for wanting to take their lands and give it to other people, nor her speaking out of turn at the meeting. I can see her anger over the last days and murder of Rickon clouding any type of kinship she might feel to children that now have to suffer the disgrace of their forebears. She lived with Ramsay. She remembers being taken roughly on her wedding night, being imprisoned and turned into an unsuccessful broodmare. Unlike Jon , saw how he transformed the once confident Theon into the pathetic Reek, and both she and Theon were people that Ramsay had no real desire to kill. Rickon was someone that Ramsay wanted dead, but not before he had some "fun". The knowledge that a trusted banner-man, one that Starks hadn't betrayed in way, (unlike the Kastarks) took her baby brother, not much older than Umber's own son and has the same name as her beloved father, and handed him over to a monster as a gift to fight the last small clutch of wildings probably has her completely incensed. For the rest of her life, with all she knows about Ramsey, she will imagine what Rickon endured during the end of his life. 

Nor do I think Sansa advice about Cersei was stupid or incomplete. While in Cersei is less powerful than the Night King, I really think that Cersei is the most direct threat at the moment. Cersei has completely lost any sort of leash she might have had on her darker impulses and her eye is more than likely fixed on offing Sansa and the new King of the North. Like others have said, Cersei doesn't need a whole lot to get to Winterfell and murder Sansa and Jon, and nor is she going to take her time like the Night King is with his army. She just doesn't know that Arya is on the case right now.

As for Sansa not feeling like anyone can protect her even with all the protection she has received, I don't blame her for that either. Despite all the protection she has had, she still has been beaten, tortured, attempted murdered, held prisoner a few times, and sexually abused. It isn't like there was some cocoon protecting her from the evil threats of the world, much of the time it has been a last second save. Wait 5 minutes or even 5 seconds longer, and Sansa would have dead or raped. Many of the people that trying to protect her had their own agendas in regards to her, foremost Littlefinger and his creepy obsession with her. His actions lead to the clusterfuck of a marriage to Ramsey. I believe she is grateful to Brienne and Poderick,but she now knows people with even the best of intentions can't always protect her, even if they die doing so, and I don't think that is a bad lesson for her to have learned.

[Lady S.]

On 7/16/2017 at 9:49 PM, Advance35 said:

 

Also interesting that the writers chose to emphasize that Sansa feels she "learned a lot" from Cersei.

She's even sporting one of Cersei's old hairstyles. 

And Cersei should approve of her new black and silver dress too. Though Sansa's own survival kind of undercuts her point about Cersei murdering everyone who's ever crossed her. She's been wanting to murder Sansa and Tyrion since early s4 and has completely failed to do so. No one should ever underestimate Cersei's insanity but that doesn't mean she's always competent at her murdering either. (I mean, Sansa doesn't even know that Ned warned Cersei, in effect helping her with her coup. If she thinks his dumbest mistake was just going up against Cersei, then she's giving Cersei too much credit.)

[Oscirus]

Punishing family members for their crimes?

Sounds familiar: hmmmmmmm

 

[Advance35]

I find the grudges people hold to be very believable.  Not every Frey or Every Lannister was involved in the fall of House Stark, but every Frey and every Lannister, did prosper from it in one way or another.  So the idea of grudges being passed on fits in with the world of Westeros.  It's why I wasn't shocked by what Ellaria and the Sand Snakes did to Myrcella.  There are a lot of reasons I consider Sansa a realistic character, her capacity too hold a grudge and her sense of categorization in Westeros circumstances is one of them.  Though she acknowledges Tyrion isn't a bad man (though she didn't do it publicly when Jon did) she does NOT consider him a friend or ally.

It's clear she loathes Targaryen's and Dany can be added to the list based on the history between their families.   And I suspect she doesn't like the idea of having the North claimed by someone else after everything she went through to get it back.  I'll be interested in seeing how they react to each other if Sansa ever meets Dany.

[Sunshinegal]

30 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I don't totally disagree here, Lyanna though was ~5 years older, and had to know what they were doing could cause harm at some point.

Sansa was totally naive and foolish; but had no real idea of overall consequences of the politics at that time .

I actually cut Sansa a lot of slack here.  I think that she was blind and naive when it came with Joffrey and ignored his bad points.  I don't think she thought she was betraying her family.  I don't think that Sansa would ever betray her family.  I get why she was mad at Arya especially since Nymeria did hurt Joffrey and Lady paid the price.  Cersei was out for blood no matter what. Sansa did wise up after Joffrey killed her father and she really was trying to help Ned. 

I don't give Lyanna any slack.  I get why she didn't want to marry Robert.  But she willingly ran off with a married man who had two children.  She willingly hurt those innocent children.  She was secretive about it (while Sansa wasn't secretive).  She had to know that Brandon and Robert would be pissed off (at Harrenhal, Brandon was very mad at Rhaegar.  I would be too if a married man who has power wanted my younger sister).  She should have known that Dorne would have also felt insulted.  If she didn't then she is stupid.  She didn't seem to wise up after her father and brother was killed and that her other brother's life is on the line.

Superficially, Sansa and Lyanna betrayed their family for love.  Even though Sansa didn't know the consequences for her family or that she was betraying them.  Lyanna should have known the consequences or did know the consequences of her actions.  Sansa really did try to help Ned the best she could.  We have no evidence that Lyanna did.  People say that Lyanna is observant or was observant about Robert's behavior.  If she was, then she really should have known what would happen when she ran off with Rhaegar.

[Colorful Mess]

I think Arya and Sansa make a great team. Sansa's weaknesses are Arya's strengths; and vice versa. Sansa is called a "manipulator" but I prefer to think of her as having "emotional intelligence." She is absolutely brilliant at handling fragile male egos (Sandor, Joffrey, Jon, Littlefinger, Sweetrobin) that are in constant supply in this universe. Arya has zero tact, but she can sense danger/lies faster than Sansa. I have a feeling that Arya would have known that Dontos was part of a larger plot. However, Arya has a violent streak, she holds grudges, thinks in very black/white terms. Sansa tries to see the good in people; at times she even feels sorry for them (Jon, Lancel, Sandor). Once an idea about someone is fixed in Arya's head, it's almost impossible to change her mind about them. Showing mercy is a challenge for her, but she hasn't completely lost her humanity. I do like their dynamic and their growth over the show. 

I dont see Sansa as a Queen ruling by herself, but she would be a valuable addition to any small council or assembly in Westeros' future.

I am dying to read her chapters in TWoW. I think Sansa is getting the heck out of dodge and going North as the grey girl. 

[Sunshinegal]

51 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think Arya and Sansa make a great team. Sansa's weaknesses are Arya's strengths; and vice versa. Sansa is called a "manipulator" but I prefer to think of her as having "emotional intelligence." She is absolutely brilliant at handling fragile male egos (Sandor, Joffrey, Jon, Littlefinger, Sweetrobin) that are in constant supply in this universe. Arya has zero tact, but she can sense danger/lies faster than Sansa. I have a feeling that Arya would have known that Dontos was part of a larger plot. However, Arya has a violent streak, she holds grudges, thinks in very black/white terms. Sansa tries to see the good in people; at times she even feels sorry for them (Jon, Lancel, Sandor). Once an idea about someone is fixed in Arya's head, it's almost impossible to change her mind about them. Showing mercy is a challenge for her, but she hasn't completely lost her humanity. I do like their dynamic and their growth over the show. 

I dont see Sansa as a Queen ruling by herself, but she would be a valuable addition to any small council or assembly in Westeros' future.

I am dying to read her chapters in TWoW. I think Sansa is getting the heck out of dodge and going North as the grey girl. 

I agree that Arya and Sansa make a great team.  I hope to see more sisterly moments on the show.  

[TarotQueen]

On 3/16/2018 at 6:38 PM, Sunshinegal said:

I get why she was mad at Arya especially since Nymeria did hurt Joffrey and Lady paid the price.  Cersei was out for blood no matter what. Sansa did wise up after Joffrey killed her father and she really was trying to help Ned. 

I know this is a Sansa thread but I have to disagree with you about how Cersei responded to Sansa.  

Sansa's wishy washy 'I don't remember ... it all happened so fast ... ' responses were such obvious dissembling, not just to the audience but meant, imo, to be relatively transparent to the adults in the room too, as proved by Ned's tacit acknowledgement when he discusses it later with Arya.

I think Cersei's gunning for Lady was thereby intended to be a message to Sansa that simply not siding against her/Joffrey was not an adequate response and that she expected Sansa to actively side with them in the future.  

Helluva way to punish a little girl for temporizing but that's Cersei for you.  Still, I think if Sansa had backed Joffrey definitively, letting Lady live would have been Cersei's manner of reward.

Edited May 2, 2018 by TarotQueen

[Sunshinegal]

3 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

I know this is a Sansa thread but I have to disagree with you about how Cersei responded to Sansa.  

Sansa's wishy washy 'I don't remember ... it all happened so fast ... ' responses were such obvious dissembling, not just to the audience but meant, imo, to be relatively transparent to the adults in the room too, as proved by Ned's tacit acknowledgement when he discusses it later with Arya.

I think Cersei's gunning for Lady was thereby intended to be a message to Sansa that simply not siding against her/Joffrey was not an adequate response and that she expected Sansa to actively side with them in the future.  

Helluva way to punish a little girl for temporizing but that's Cersei for you.  Still, I think if Sansa had backed Joffrey definitively, letting Lady live would have been Cersei's manner of reward.

I still think that Cersei was out for blood.  If Sansa backed Joffrey definitively than she would have had Arya punished harshly or tried to anyway.  You are right that Cersei was using Lady against Sansa. 

[Smad]

The hate that gets thrown at this character will never not confuse me. I mean she isn't a stellar character (writing sucks often) but in a show where fans love rapists, murderers, child killers etc...the character with arguably the least amount of blood on her hands is the one so many hate? Baffling. That people often have to invent reasons (by blatantly ignoring show canon) is just pathetic.

I sometimes wonder if it's simply because Sansa is a 'reality' character in a fantasy show and people don't want normal. Largely because most people would be normal in that world (and they know it) and life would suck for them. They want the Jon/Dany/Arya/Brienne's and so forth in their fantasy shows because they are fantasy characters. Or they love the Bronn/Hound/Tormund's of the world who can get the one liners and curse up a storm, despite all the blood on their hands.

Right from the beginning people invented reasons to hate her but ignored the canon to do so. Micah's and Lady's death were Arya's fault (Arya even said so herself so that's canon) but Arya is the fantasy character and feminist to boot by bucking tradition, so the blame has to go to someone else. And from what I have seen of S7 reviews and read on forums, people were still doing that as of S7. I will never understand why people waste energy just to hate a fictional character so much.

[GrailKing]

On 10/29/2018 at 2:58 AM, Smad said:

Right from the beginning people invented reasons to hate her but ignored the canon to do so. Micah's and Lady's death were Arya's fault (Arya even said so herself so that's canon) but Arya is the fantasy character and feminist to boot by bucking tradition, so the blame has to go to someone else. And from what I have seen of S7 reviews and read on forums, people were still doing that as of S7. I will never understand why people waste energy just to hate a fictional character so much.

Arya's a bit hard on herself, she had a part no doubt, yet the blame goes in this order in my opinion (based on severity ) Cersei: vindictive witch, Robert: weak man, Ned : too honorable, could had sent Lady home, Sandor: doing his duty, but he could had told Cersei he didn't find Micah, Joffery : lying little twit, Arya : honorable, but a rash action, to young to think of consequences.

S7: I find wrg to Sansa; they just go week to week, totally disregard 7 seasons of growth and what is shown or ( in book ) written; is totally discarded.

On 5/2/2018 at 1:36 PM, Sunshinegal said:

I still think that Cersei was out for blood.  If Sansa backed Joffrey definitively than she would have had Arya punished harshly or tried to anyway.  You are right that Cersei was using Lady against Sansa. 

I think she used Lady against the Starks as a whole, she didn't care about Sansa, but it was more of a lesson to the whole house.

[GrailKing]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:39 AM, TarotQueen said:

Helluva way to punish a little girl for temporizing but that's Cersei for you.  Still, I think if Sansa had backed Joffrey definitively, letting Lady live would have been Cersei's manner of reward.

Truth or lie, a wolf was dying, to me it was more a punishment to House Stark and to Robert for siding with the Starks.

It's clear later she held a deep hatred for House Stark and Robert.

 GRRM gave this answer WRG to Sansa's lie :

- A good one was about Sansa - if she had told the truth at Darry, would Lady be still alive? GRRM said it is possible - Robert was not a thinker but an impetuous man, ruled by his emotions, so it could be that he would have directed his anger towards Joffrey instead of the direwolves. But it is not certain, because Robert wanted to keep peace in his marriage and might have decided to make Cersei happy on the matter of the direwolves anyway.

[GrailKing]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:09 PM, Sunshinegal said:

I agree that Arya and Sansa make a great team.  I hope to see more sisterly moments on the show.  

From the start book and show ( minus childish angst ) we can see they compliment each other well, we see the same between Sansa and Jon, they have strengths the other is weak at and because of it they help the other learn naturally.

[GrailKing]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:12 PM, Colorful Mess said:

 I think Sansa is getting the heck out of dodge and going North as the grey girl. 

Still thinking about this ( been a while ) I vacillate between Sansa, Alys Karstark, who Jon had wedded to a Thenn, Jeyne Poole or Arya.

If it's Sansa then Brienne seemed to fail at locating her, and HTH was a douche or he died and Sansa said I'm out of here.

On 3/16/2018 at 7:38 PM, Sunshinegal said:

I actually cut Sansa a lot of slack here.  I think that she was blind and naive when it came with Joffrey and ignored his bad points.  I don't think she thought she was betraying her family.  I don't think that Sansa would ever betray her family.  I get why she was mad at Arya especially since Nymeria did hurt Joffrey and Lady paid the price.  Cersei was out for blood no matter what. Sansa did wise up after Joffrey killed her father and she really was trying to help Ned. 

I don't give Lyanna any slack.  I get why she didn't want to marry Robert.  But she willingly ran off with a married man who had two children.  She willingly hurt those innocent children.  She was secretive about it (while Sansa wasn't secretive).  She had to know that Brandon and Robert would be pissed off (at Harrenhal, Brandon was very mad at Rhaegar.  I would be too if a married man who has power wanted my younger sister).  She should have known that Dorne would have also felt insulted.  If she didn't then she is stupid.  She didn't seem to wise up after her father and brother was killed and that her other brother's life is on the line.

Superficially, Sansa and Lyanna betrayed their family for love.  Even though Sansa didn't know the consequences for her family or that she was betraying them.  Lyanna should have known the consequences or did know the consequences of her actions.  Sansa really did try to help Ned the best she could.  We have no evidence that Lyanna did.  People say that Lyanna is observant or was observant about Robert's behavior.  If she was, then she really should have known what would happen when she ran off with Rhaegar.

Sansa was totally out of the loop with what Ned, LF, and others were doing, I'm only upset with her for not thinking through her father's reason, hence to me she's just a normal kid.

My daughter was going through a phase like that, just no political or life consequences as Sansa's.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Arya's a bit hard on herself, she had a part no doubt, yet the blame goes in this order in my opinion (based on severity ) Cersei: vindictive witch, Robert: weak man, Ned : too honorable, could had sent Lady home, Sandor: doing his duty, but he could had told Cersei he didn't find Micah, Joffery : lying little twit, Arya : honorable, but a rash action, to young to think of consequences.

Oh I agree with the order of people responsible that you list. I've just never understood why it's somehow ALL Sansa's fault and something that fuels the hate FOREVER for some people. While no one blames Arya or better yet, the freaking adults who all sucked majorly at parenting. I mean most people start their 'I hate Sansa' tirades with the Micah incident to this day and it's just baffling to me.

Arya was the one who had wandered off and involved the butcher boy to engage in unladylike behavior. She was the one who physically attacked the crown prince instead of standing back and letting it play out. Arya never thinks before she acts and her first instinct is always violence. I don't think Joffrey would have done more than cut Micah's cheek. At the summit later, Arya once again was verbally hostile to the entire royal family instead of for once using common sense and just playing by the rules (complete failure of the Stark's in terms of parenting). Sansa in that same summit, by not siding with anyone, possibly saved Arya from major harm. If she had sided with Arya's story (as so many fans demand of her), I don't want to imagine what Cersei would have insisted on as punishment. And Ned would have just let it happen because he is a crappy parent (after all he didn't break off Sansa's betrothal for her safety and well being even after it became clear the Lannisters were psychos).

But so many fans don't want to see all this because they hate Sansa and love Arya (the shining feminist character who is basically that because she is a guy in all but sex).

[Stella]

I suppose there are multiple reasons why some hate on Sansa and one of them is simply that she quite possibly stands in the way of some preferred endings.

When I read GOT I thought Martin's characterizations of the two sisters brilliant. Firstly they are very different girls and that comes across clearly. Secondly our first pictures of Sansa are coming from Arya! Not an unbiased source. POV trap is real. These girls are close in age and still quite young. You can also see a birth order thing going on with the older, obedient daughter vs. the younger rebellious one. I mean Ned totally missed the boat by ignoring his elder daughter. I can imagine he viewed her as the one he didn't have to worry about because she was the perfect young lady. He does a lot to support Arya's dreams. He leaves Sansa to the Septa. Bad decision Ned.

They both still have at least one foot in dreamy childhood. Their dreams are just different but very representative of this aspect of childhood development. We also get that Bran and Jon have a lot of dreams as well. (I'm talking about fantasy of the mind, not dreams in sleep here.) Sansa's a child with a child's dream of being a princess. We see this stuff all the time, even now. 

And as to her betrayal she really did not have a good choice. If she told the truth it would surely have come out even worse for Arya because no way was Joff going to pay for his actions. To continue hating on this character is a loss for the viewer/reader because IMO her inner complexity and grit are truly fascinating.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Oh I agree with the order of people responsible that you list. I've just never understood why it's somehow ALL Sansa's fault and something that fuels the hate FOREVER for some people. While no one blames Arya or better yet, the freaking adults who all sucked majorly at parenting. I mean most people start their 'I hate Sansa' tirades with the Micah incident to this day and it's just baffling to me.

Arya was the one who had wandered off and involved the butcher boy to engage in unladylike behavior. She was the one who physically attacked the crown prince instead of standing back and letting it play out. Arya never thinks before she acts and her first instinct is always violence. I don't think Joffrey would have done more than cut Micah's cheek. At the summit later, Arya once again was verbally hostile to the entire royal family instead of for once using common sense and just playing by the rules (complete failure of the Stark's in terms of parenting). Sansa in that same summit, by not siding with anyone, possibly saved Arya from major harm. If she had sided with Arya's story (as so many fans demand of her), I don't want to imagine what Cersei would have insisted on as punishment. And Ned would have just let it happen because he is a crappy parent (after all he didn't break off Sansa's betrothal for her safety and well being even after it became clear the Lannisters were psychos).

But so many fans don't want to see all this because they hate Sansa and love Arya (the shining feminist character who is basically that because she is a guy in all but sex).

WRG to Micah, I don't think many know Micah was killed before Sansa was called.

WRG to Arya and Sansa telling her to stay out of it; the writers removed too much of the Darry scene from the book, notably Sansa letting Lady loosely ahead of her to part the sea of people, it's a 11 YO making an entrance AKA M.O.D. on dragon back in a dragon pit, but more notable was her instinct to calm the Joffery and Renly heat, that had the travelers all nervous, yet kudos to her from Renly and Selmy.

ETA: I don't blame Arya for being a kid, the wheel horse thing got cancelled anyway, not her fault.

She just acts without thinking like most kids.

Edited November 2, 2018 by GrailKing

[Smad]

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

WRG to Micah, I don't think many know Micah was killed before Sansa was called.

Don't buy that for a second. The order of events are shown on screen. We see Ned come across the Hound with the dead boy's body on the horse. Ned was on his way to the summit, so the boy was dead before Sansa ever said anything. Hence people hating on Sansa for Micah's fate are completely ignoring canon.

19 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

ETA: I don't blame Arya for being a kid, the wheel horse thing got cancelled anyway, not her fault.

She just acts without thinking like most kids.

Then why is the age excuse never allowed for Sansa? Why do people expect her to act like an adult but Arya can be a kid? If people blame Sansa for everything and ignore context (age, upbringing, sequence of events etc.), the same should be allowed for Arya. If Sansa is judged like an adult, then Arya needs to be as well. Otherwise it's again just blind hate of the reality character while giving the wet dream feminist one a pass. The stick of how to measure the characters is different and I don't see why it should be unless one were to invent reasons for character hate/love.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Don't buy that for a second. The order of events are shown on screen. We see Ned come across the Hound with the dead boy's body on the horse. Ned was on his way to the summit, so the boy was dead before Sansa ever said anything. Hence people hating on Sansa for Micah's fate are completely ignoring canon.

Then why is the age excuse never allowed for Sansa? Why do people expect her to act like an adult but Arya can be a kid? If people blame Sansa for everything and ignore context (age, upbringing, sequence of events etc.), the same should be allowed for Arya. If Sansa is judged like an adult, then Arya needs to be as well. Otherwise it's again just blind hate of the reality character while giving the wet dream feminist one a pass. The stick of how to measure the characters is different and I don't see why it should be unless one were to invent reasons for character hate/love.

I don't get into it with them for that.  Sansa's a kid until 16, so anything before the Eyrie in show she's a kid, in book she's still a kid.

Part of the problem is, D & D cut a lot of her soul; but they did the same for others.

Many may not want to be reminded we are more Sansa, then Arya in a fantasy world, where everyone should be bad ass. Real people fantasy or not are not bad ass people.

I simply follow the D H Lawrence rule.

[Smad]

On 3.11.2018 at 1:04 AM, GrailKing said:

I don't get into it with them for that.  Sansa's a kid until 16, so anything before the Eyrie in show she's a kid, in book she's still a kid.

Part of the problem is, D & D cut a lot of her soul; but they did the same for others.

Many may not want to be reminded we are more Sansa, then Arya in a fantasy world, where everyone should be bad ass. Real people fantasy or not are not bad ass people.

I simply follow the D H Lawrence rule.

I haven't read the books yet (waiting for the show to end and then use the books as a cleansing pallet for the crap the show has become) but from what little I know, it's kind of sad how much they have changed from Sansa's character. I like that they didn't have the Ned betrayal in there, probably knowing that Sansa being a naive girl raised on Disney stories (which cause her to be be blinded by Joffrey feels) wouldn't endear anyone to her. But I don't understand why they took out how smart Sansa is. From what I understand she could read and write better than any of her siblings. Really she is good at a lot of things, except math. She is also much more astute when it comes to the goings on in KL. She was very aware that everyone was using her for her name, including the Tyrell's. Instead in the show they reverted her back to S1 by mooning over the possibility of getting with Loras. I know you can't really do POVs on tv because those are internal but you can still show parts of it. They could have had scenes of Sansa just observing what's going on around her. They could still have her articulate to someone that she knows exactly what all these people want out of her.

And I really don't get that we didn't get a continuation of her S4 arc. If the show can waste 2 Seasons on the boring 'Arya in Braavos' story, why couldn't we get 2 Seasons of Sansa actually learning to play the game? Hell I wouldn't even have minded the whole Ramsey thing if D&D actually delivered on what they had LittleFinger state was the reason for the whole thing, to take Winterfell back from the inside. Instead they have LF bounce the second he delivered Sansa and then she is just brutalized for Theon's character development. D&D could have still satisfied their 'rape and torture Sansa' boner this way, as Sansa would have made an active choice to endure whatever is thrown her way to get her home back. And then show her (with help from the Northerners inside Winterfell and maybe LF) manipulate things inside Winterfell and take it back. Now that would have been an awesome plot for S5.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Smad

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Smad said:

And I really don't get that we didn't get a continuation of her S4 arc. If the show can waste 2 Seasons on the boring 'Arya in Braavos' story, why couldn't we get 2 Seasons of Sansa actually learning to play the game?

Well, we sort have gotten her Vale arc ( blank S5 ) just rushed, shorten, and instead of in the Vale they put her in Winterfell, they also removed most of her arc in s1 e2, which in book showed more of who she was.

[Smad]

45 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well, we sort have gotten her Vale arc ( blank S5 ) just rushed, shorten, and instead of in the Vale they put her in Winterfell, they also removed most of her arc in s1 e2, which in book showed more of who she was.

I don't see how S5 is in any way comparable to the Vale arc (as far as I know about the books). S5 was Sansa being made the dumbest she ever was by agreeing to go to the Boltons and then victimized for the umpteenth time. And since she was also entirely inactive while there, her brutalization seemed to be all about snapping Theon out of his Reek state in order to get him to the point where he will help her escape. From all the things I know about book Sansa, no way in hell is it comparable.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

I don't see how S5 is in any way comparable to the Vale arc (as far as I know about the books). S5 was Sansa being made the dumbest she ever was by agreeing to go to the Boltons and then victimized for the umpteenth time. And since she was also entirely inactive while there, her brutalization seemed to be all about snapping Theon out of his Reek state in order to get him to the point where he will help her escape. From all the things I know about book Sansa, no way in hell is it comparable.

I should had said blank out S5 if we bypass S5 then her arc in 6 and 7 his basically her Vale arc  just in Winterfell.

[Smad]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I should had said blank out S5 if we bypass S5 then her arc in 6 and 7 his basically her Vale arc  just in Winterfell.

Only if you think the complete absence of a believable story arc or incompetent writing or inconsistent character development is a good thing. I don't ever see GRRM messing the Sansa story up so completely.