Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Advance35]

Well I can't wait to see how Sansa is going to end this season.    She now knows Bran and Rickon are alive but she has the bad luck to be in the North when everything beyond the Wall is about to come over.   If she doesn't get out of Winterfell and the North soon she's in big trouble. 

 

But at the same time if Ramsay is still alive, he would chase her all over Westeros before he'd let her go.  To say nothing of the fact that she's still wanted by the Iron Throne for a regicide she didn't commit.

 

Here's hoping she's in episode 9.

[Funzlerks]

Someone in the main thread made the point that we were told that Sansa was learning to play the Game this season. And she did not. I so agree! She is now married to Ramsay and unless Westeros has some complicated legal outs, she is of no use to anyone else politically until Ramsay is dead. And I assume since most things are similar to medieval rules, Ramsay could kill anyone abetting her. How is that playing the Game? The show chose to have her locked in a room. They could have easily had her have a more KL style imprisonment in which she could have made some contacts with Northern lords who could help her.

It makes Littlefinger seem clueless and out of it. It narrowed his options. I gave the arc a lot of credit early on, but I am fairly upset that Sansa landing in a giant snow drift is her big moment.

[Advance35]

I really liked the Sansa Storyline this year.  One of it's main selling points for me was the fact that she would be getting to interact with some really interesting characters/actors.  I think it's been a milestone year.   She's on her second husband.   And has a new ally in Theon/Reek.

 

Can't wait to see what she's up to in the future if the fall didn't kill her.

[Bass90]

I like how the season opened with Littlefinger telling Sansa that she’s been a “bystander to tragedy” and needs to “stop running” and “avenge them”, which leads to: sulking at Winterfell, then being raped and abused for a while, failing on different occasions to run away, and then successfully running away after being rescued by somebody else

 

Wasn't the whole point of moving Sansa to Winterfell to speed up her character progression over her stay at the Eyrie in the books?

[Funzlerks]

She was even wearing a hood just like when she ran away from the Purple Wedding. And jumping off the wall reminded me of Littlfinger pushing Dontos off the boat. I hope they just go all in and have Sansa begin each season with a promising new development only for a series of unfortunate events to occur-then she can run away with a fantastic, flowing hooded cloak on.

[SeanC]

I like how the season opened with Littlefinger telling Sansa that she’s been a “bystander to tragedy” and needs to “stop running” and “avenge them”, which leads to: sulking at Winterfell, then being raped and abused for a while, failing on different occasions to run away, and then successfully running away after being rescued by somebody else

 

Wasn't the whole point of moving Sansa to Winterfell to speed up her character progression over her stay at the Eyrie in the books?

Were you attempting to quote me in another thread with that first paragraph?

 

No, the point of sending Sansa to Winterfell was so that she could replace Jeyne Poole and so the show wouldn't have to do the Eyrie story.  That's perfectly clear.

[Advance35]

Or maybe that's her actual character.  Maybe she's never Xena Warrior Princess and maybe she never gains the aptitude for intrigue.   Maybe she's just destined to be a genteel young girl who dies horribly during the course of the story.   A part of me is actually starting to not mind the idea just for the fan outrage.

 

In any event I did enjoy ST's work this season.   She kept me engaged which was more than quite a few other characters were able to do.   And I again see why Sansa is credited as the "Little Black Dress" of fandom.   She really does set up a good dynamic with just about every character they pair her with.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Advance35

[SeanC]

Or maybe that's her actual character.  Maybe she's never Xena Warrior Princess and maybe she never gains the aptitude for intrigue.

Except that GRRM and the story that he's been writing say otherwise (as do the writers of the show, even though there's been absolutely no follow-through).

[Umbelina]

I always thought (from the first book!) that if one of Ned's kids ever did rule Westeros, it would be a dark horse.  Rickon, Sansa, or the bastard Jon (who was at least adopted and raised by Ned.)

 

We have no idea what's happening with Rickon.  He's with descendents of the First Men, which I feel is significant, and he's firey, so even though raised by Ned, hopefully not as complaisant and rule following, though still with some of Ned's honor, just not enough to have him end up like dumbo Ned.  I can't see him being as blind or trusting as Ned.  Truthfully, I've long thought it will be Rickon, in some capacity, as the Ned child who would persevere.

 

Sansa is (at least in the books) being taught by the best manipulator there is, with the possible exception of Varys.  However, Littlefinger has none of the stars in his eyes about destiny or rightful rulers or mythology, so is probably the best one to mentor Sansa that she could possibly find.  He's a realist, and a survivor by brains alone.  Sansa isn't cut out to carry a sword, or physically fight, and she fell in to a relationship with probably the best one to teach her skills she COULD use, to survive or to rule.  I won't count her out either.

 

Jon?  The whole AA thing, and eventual reveal of his parents.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Umbelina

[Advance35]

GRRM's also said he's scrapped entire storylines and plot points after writing quite a bit of them because he decided it didn't feel organic or some such.   Things with the author can/have changed.    Hence why Sansa was too have Joffrey's child once upon a draft.

 

In any event, I'm happy to say that I still have faith in the writers and the way they've handled Sansa's character.   I'm quite sure she'll end up just where GRRM intends.   It'll be interesting to see comparisons, IF GRRM ever finishes the books that is.   If not, well I guess cannon will be whatever the show does.

 

In any event, I'm hoping for more Macabre interaction with Ramsay/Sansa.   They were one of the few storylines that kept me on the edge of my seat this season.

 

Sansa is (at least in the books) being taught by the best manipulator there is, with the possible exception of Varys.  However, Littlefinger has none of the stars in his eyes about destiny or rightful rulers or mythology, so is probably the best one to mentor Sansa that she could possibly find.  He's a realist, and a survivor by brains alone.  Sansa isn't cut out to carry a sword, or physically fight, and she fell in to a relationship to probably the best one to teach her skills she COULD use, to survive or to rule.  I won't count her out either.

 

 

I don't think she has the killer instinct that would likely be needed.  I think she'd have to be backed into a corner, but I'm not sure she has it in her to take preemptive fatal action.   I assume it's the reason so many "King's Consort" endgames are theorized for the character.   As of now in the show, I wouldn't consider Sansa a schemer more, capable of clever trickery.   Whether she'll ever progress is still to be determined but bear bones are there.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Advance35

[BlackberryJam]

 

 

Episode 1 - saves Dontos, showing her cleverness and ability to manipulate a psychopath without being obvious about it.

Episode 3 - no decisions to speak of here.  She sits through an insulting dinner party, and is confounded by a sucktastic maid who she has every reason to believe is probably a spy, but decides to trust offscreen for seasons we're never told.  Other than that subsequent thing, no decisions to speak of.

Episode 4 - gets beaten up by Joffrey's knights.  Tyrion offers to break her betrothal, which she sensibly refuses on the basis that she has no reason to trust Tyrion and it could easily be some kind of trap [and because she needs to remain in a place to contact Dontos in order to effect her escape and therefore weighs her options and picks escape over temporary safety...oh wait, the show cut all that]

Episode 6 - almost gets raped.  No decisions to speak of.

Episode 7 - fails at hiding evidence of her period.  Gets lectured to by Cersei.  No decisions to speak of.

Episode 9 - shows some leadership potential, then declines to go with the Hound, who she has no reason to trust [because he's a raving drunkard who had just put a knife to her throat and comes across like a would-be rapist...oh right, the show cut all that]

Episode 10 - Plays along with her betrothal being broken off, and then wisely declines the help of Littlefinger, who is transparently a gigantic creep and who she has no reason to trust.

 

 

Moving here to be more appropriate.

 

That's from SeanC in the Spec thread. We really are watching a different show. Honestly, I have no idea who this character you're referring to is.

 

But I'll play with your versions of these episodes, let's look at it a more realistic way.

 

Episode 1 - Shoots manipulation wad on someone who can't help her in the future.

Episode 3 - Trusts untrustworthy maid on the basis of ...nothing.

Episode 4 - Has faith in unreliable drunk.

Episode 6 - Not touching that one.

Episode 7 - Fails. Yep.

Episode 9 - Widens her rift with the ruling Queen who is drunk and has a man with a sword standing there ready to do her bidding. Trusts drunken Dontos (according to you in E2) over the man who actually protected her and who has at least the physical wherewithal to keep her safe and who is volunteering to do so.

Episode 10 - Begins to develop trust for a supercreeper.

 

We are watching a different show SeanC. I have no idea how it can be so totally different for you, but it's pretty clear we have absolutely nothing to say to one another on this subject. But yeah...I just wanted to let you know I read your list and was all "What show is that?"

 

[SeanC]

Episode 1 - Shoots manipulation wad on someone who can't help her in the future.

Episode 3 - Trusts untrustworthy maid on the basis of ...nothing.

Episode 4 - Has faith in unreliable drunk.

Episode 6 - Not touching that one.

Episode 7 - Fails. Yep.

Episode 9 - Widens her rift with the ruling Queen who is drunk and has a man with a sword standing there ready to do her bidding. Trusts drunken Dontos (according to you in E2) over the man who actually protected her and who has at least the physical wherewithal to keep her safe and who is volunteering to do so.

Episode 10 - Begins to develop trust for a supercreeper.

Episode 1 - she didn't do it because she wanted his help. She did it because it was the right thing to do. And there is no finite amount of manipulation she's alotted in-universe, so how is that a bad decision?

Episode 3 - Shae is trustworthy; the show just didn't feel any need to explain why she trusted her beyond that they're both nice characters and thus they're expected to recognize each other. Bad writing, but not a bad decision.

Episode 4 - First, that didn't happen in the show; second, her other option is to sit around and do nothing. She bravely banks on trying to escape. And as a consequence, she does escape. How is that a bad decision?

Episode 7 - please identify the bad decision?

Episode 9 - I'm not sure what rift she widened there; Cersei already hates her. And, since you're talking about the books regarding the Hound, the Hound was a violent drunk who then threatened to kill her, and left immediately afterward without giving her any further space. Seems far from a bad decision to not want to go with him (though, again, the show's writing choices make the whole scenario make far less sense).

Episode 10 - we're back to talking about the show now, where she does not "begin to develop trust". She turns him down flat.

Edited July 8, 2015 by SeanC

[Paradigm14]

Well, sticking to Season 5, Sansa did make relationships in the Vale, and tried to find a power spot with the Boltons, but she couldn't do it just yet. Ramsey's a tough customer. She DID get inroads though to put father against son, especially once Walda was with child.  She just happened to split before that went anywhere. She did use the distraction of making him feel insecure though to get her corkscrew.

 

So did she play? A little bit. I'd say this was a normal human amount of learning in an inhuman situation.

 

She did succeed in manipulating Theon/Reek to get out and to discover that her brothers were alive. SHE did that.

 

She also discovered through the old lady that there were people in the North who care about her and her family. Her ability to recruit help from the Northern Houses and possibly leverage the Vale Army to get Winterfell back is what we might be looking at for Season 6. Getting people to risk their lives and positions is the essence of politics in Westeros. She may well be on her way with what we see thus far.

[Hecate7]

She also stalled Myranda long enough to allow Theon to rush her, and she did pick the lock on her door and escape. Not too shabby considering her situation, IMO. She picked up the corkscrew without Ramsey seeing, and she managed to use it. She also managed to finally talk Theon into taking a risk. That is enormous.

[SeanC]

Well, sticking to Season 5, Sansa did make relationships in the Vale,

Which she stupidly abandoned and did not contemplate making any use of, which is what any intelligent person would do.

and tried to find a power spot with the Boltons,

By waltzing in to become their prisoner and then doing nothing.

She DID get inroads though to put father against son, especially once Walda was with child. She just happened to split before that went anywhere.

There is nothing to suggest she made any such inroads. Ramsay glowered for a second, but then moved on to rubbing in her face that he foiled her escape, and in his subsequent appearances that season is entirely unbothered by it.

She did succeed in manipulating Theon/Reek to get out and to discover that her brothers were alive. SHE did that.

No, she did not. Her one attempt to persuade Theon to help her failed completely and got her only ally in the castle killed, at which point she completely abandoned any notion of manipulating Theon and went back to venting her anger at him. Theon subsequently rescued her entirely on his own initiative, in response to Myranda saying Ramsay was going to torture her into she-Reek.

Likewise, the information about Bran and Rickon was something she stumbled across by complete accident. She was ranting at Theon, without any notion that he had any valuable information. If I go to yell at my neighbour for their dog digging up my garden and they immediately blurt out that they are a pedophile, that doesn't make me a manipulator or master interrogator.

She also discovered through the old lady that there were people in the North who care about her and her family. Her ability to recruit help from the Northern Houses and possibly leverage the Vale Army to get Winterfell back is what we might be looking at for Season 6. Getting people to risk their lives and positions is the essence of politics in Westeros. She may well be on her way with what we see thus far.

First, she "discovered" that because the old lady walked up and announced she was in her team, at which point she made not the slightest attempt to do anything with this information, and from all indicators had not been planning to look into this at all. It's yet another thing she stumbled into through no act of her own.

Second, some random serving lady says nothing about other Northern houses (particularly as even in Winterfell itself she appears to have been completely alone).

Third, that Northerners still love the Starks was the whole basis for them going to Winterfell --it's why the Boltons and Stannis are assumed to want her. That's not new information. She just stupidly decides to go to a place where she has no allies instead of seeking out these Northern friends, which is, again, what anyone with a functioning brain would have done.

[nksarmi]

Sansa would have been playing the game if she walked into Winterfell, reminded them all that this was her home, and then went about complimenting Roose and Ramsey while convincing them that they should invite the other heads of the great houses to the wedding so that the North could be healed by their wedding.  She wouldn't have needed a complete personality transplant for this to happen - she could have done it all in her own subtle way (she doesn't need to be over the top like Marg to be manipulative).

 

If she could have done that, then a) we could have gotten a bit of the North story this season, b) she could have stalled the wedding a bit, and c) she could have tried to figure out if she does indeed have supporters in the North of any significance.  Roose is not an idiot so I'm not saying Sansa could pull the wool over his eyes easily.  BUT if he is willing to work with LF because the Lannister's are weak then perhaps creating loyalty and cohesion in the North would make sense to him just in case he needs to call those banners at some point as Warden of the North. 

 

I would have been very impressed if that was the story they told with Sansa and then they could have used those relationships to setup where the heck Sansa goes in season six.  Right now, I would still call the Sansa story a colossal fail.

[Advance35]

Sansa would have been playing the game if she walked into Winterfell, reminded them all that this was her home, and then went about complimenting Roose and Ramsey while convincing them that they should invite the other heads of the great houses to the wedding so that the North could be healed by their wedding.  She wouldn't have needed a complete personality transplant for this to happen - she could have done it all in her own subtle way (she doesn't need to be over the top like Marg to be manipulative).

 

I wouldn't buy Sansa coming up with that idea in either the show OR the book in all honesty.  I don't think she's anywhere NEAR that level of cunning.  None of the Starks were really.   Ned, Cat and (maybe,  though on the lower end of the spectrum) Robb, were all textbook Courtly smart, they were the brains of the outfit (which tells us just how doomed House Stark always was).

 

Sansa hasn't been shown to understand the value of Bannerman, the arena she's been in the past few years has been pure head of Houses.   I think she's capable of ingratiating herself (if she thinks it's necessary) but I don't think she's skilled or well-versed at turning anyone against someone else.   After the Red Wedding, she probably doesn't think there is anyone else loyal to House Stark.   I could see her pulling something like what Tyrion did with Dany, showing herself to be of some value when dealing with reasonable people but that's not how one would describe the Boltons.

 

Every other (acknowledged) player in this story has a support network.   Cersei has Jaimie and what remains of House Lannister, Margaery and Olenna have the resources of House Tyrell, Doran/Ellaria/Sand Snakes (for now) have the resources of House Martell,  Dany has Tyrion, Dario, Jorah, Dragons and can bully the Mereneese nobility WITH those dragons, Varys and LF have the spy networks and contacts they've spent YEARS if not decades cultivating.   Even Roose and Ramsay have/had (on paper) the support of House Lannister and their own army of underlings.

 

I think a big part of Sansa inadvertently trusted LF or trusted in his lust for her.  I've seen it pointed out elswhere but her demenor with him can be VERY high handed.    She was at times snarky and a bit petulant because she thought he wouldn't let anything happen to her.  When LF is physically present she seemed confident he could guide her through any potential mis-steps (the way Margaery seems better when Olenna is around), I think that's what gave her the guts to attempt her successful manuever last Season in the Vale.   When LF was with her in Winterfell she was wonderfully oblique but when he left things started to erode (she acknowledged that she was afraid of Roose Bolton), than Reek/Theon was unvailed, Myranda became a clear threat (servants or "low born" seem to be much better behaved in the South, it's clear the recent years of chaos in the North has changed things for them) and decended from there.   When Littlefinger was around, she was confident in her value to him and to be fair, I think that's understandable.   I think it's very understandable and grounded (something Sansa's arc has consistently been throughout the novels and show IMO).

 

LF murdered a King and rescued her from Kings Landing, he then murdered the Lady Regent of House Arryn (on what seemed) like her behalf.   She couldn't have known what Ramsay was.   Nobody did.   And that I also find believable since everywhere else considers the North to be a "Grey Waste".   The Starks basically took no part in the rest of the Realm and didn't seem to mingle with the other regions outside of Ravens to House Arryn and House Tully.   Kings Landing is accustomed to Southern movers and shakers.

[nksarmi]

I wouldn't buy Sansa coming up with that idea in either the show OR the book in all honesty.  I don't think she's anywhere NEAR that level of cunning.  None of the Starks were really.   Ned, Cat and (maybe,  though on the lower end of the spectrum) Robb, were all textbook Courtly smart, they were the brains of the outfit (which tells us just how doomed House Stark always was).

 

Sansa hasn't been shown to understand the value of Bannerman, the arena she's been in the past few years has been pure head of Houses.   I think she's capable of ingratiating herself (if she thinks it's necessary) but I don't think she's skilled or well-versed at turning anyone against someone else.   After the Red Wedding, she probably doesn't think there is anyone else loyal to House Stark.   I could see her pulling something like what Tyrion did with Dany, showing herself to be of some value when dealing with reasonable people but that's not how one would describe the Boltons.

 

Every other (acknowledged) player in this story has a support network.   Cersei has Jaimie and what remains of House Lannister, Margaery and Olenna have the resources of House Tyrell, Doran/Ellaria/Sand Snakes (for now) have the resources of House Martell,  Dany has Tyrion, Dario, Jorah, Dragons and can bully the Mereneese nobility WITH those dragons, Varys and LF have the spy networks and contacts they've spent YEARS if not decades cultivating.   Even Roose and Ramsay have/had (on paper) the support of House Lannister and their own army of underlings.

 

I think a big part of Sansa inadvertently trusted LF or trusted in his lust for her.  I've seen it pointed out elswhere but her demenor with him can be VERY high handed.    She was at times snarky and a bit petulant because she thought he wouldn't let anything happen to her.  When LF is physically present she seemed confident he could guide her through any potential mis-steps (the way Margaery seems better when Olenna is around), I think that's what gave her the guts to attempt her successful manuever last Season in the Vale.   When LF was with her in Winterfell she was wonderfully oblique but when he left things started to erode (she acknowledged that she was afraid of Roose Bolton), than Reek/Theon was unvailed, Myranda became a clear threat (servants or "low born" seem to be much better behaved in the South, it's clear the recent years of chaos in the North has changed things for them) and decended from there.   When Littlefinger was around, she was confident in her value to him and to be fair, I think that's understandable.   I think it's very understandable and grounded (something Sansa's arc has consistently been throughout the novels and show IMO).

 

LF murdered a King and rescued her from Kings Landing, he then murdered the Lady Regent of House Arryn (on what seemed) like her behalf.   She couldn't have known what Ramsay was.   Nobody did.   And that I also find believable since everywhere else considers the North to be a "Grey Waste".   The Starks basically took no part in the rest of the Realm and didn't seem to mingle with the other regions outside of Ravens to House Arryn and House Tully.   Kings Landing is accustomed to Southern movers and shakers.

I agree with all you said - I'm just saying Sansa would have been playing the game and showing some skill if she did that.  I mean, I wouldn't have minded if it was a couple of simple lines like "when will the Northern houses arrive for the wedding feast" and then Roose does it on his own.  Since it happened in the books without Sansa/JP asking for it - I find it believable that she could have subtlety initiated it.

 

But for the record - I've never seen Sansa as a game player - not in the books or on the show.  I was just saying that if they intended to make her one - that would have been a nice way to do it.

[Paradigm14]

"Which she stupidly abandoned and did not contemplate making any use of, which is what any intelligent person would do."

 

I can't agree here. I think she believed they could be called upon later, but was first simply catching her breath. She also believed that LF already had a plan, so why make another?

 

 

"By waltzing in to become their prisoner and then doing nothing.

There is nothing to suggest she made any such inroads. Ramsay glowered for a second, but then moved on to rubbing in her face that he foiled her escape, and in his subsequent appearances that season is entirely unbothered by it."

 

Not true. Three different times, she moved Ramsey off-guard and while his initial answer to hearing about the legit son was to simply try to please his father more, he did respond to it, and seemed to get deeper into the idea that he needed Sansa for legitimacy.

 

 

"No, she did not. Her one attempt to persuade Theon to help her failed completely and got her only ally in the castle killed, at which point she completely abandoned any notion of manipulating Theon and went back to venting her anger at him. Theon subsequently rescued her entirely on his own initiative, in response to Myranda saying Ramsay was going to torture her into she-Reek.

Likewise, the information about Bran and Rickon was something she stumbled across by complete accident. She was ranting at Theon, without any notion that he had any valuable information. If I go to yell at my neighbour for their dog digging up my garden and they immediately blurt out that they are a pedophile, that doesn't make me a manipulator or master interrogator."

 

I disagree, she was trying to break his Reek identity by getting to him emotionally. It didn't get her out at that moment, but she got him to break Ramsey's hold over him by havign him release information he wasm't allowed to. It was a small step, but WAS a step.. 

 

 

"First, she "discovered" that because the old lady walked up and announced she was in her team, at which point she made not the slightest attempt to do anything with this information, and from all indicators had not been planning to look into this at all. It's yet another thing she stumbled into through no act of her own.

Second, some random serving lady says nothing about other Northern houses (particularly as even in Winterfell itself she appears to have been completely alone)."

 

Nope, DID NOT appear to be completely alone. The old man in the Tavern got Brienne her message for the Bat Signal. It was a dumb idea, but he was involved as well and not caught. Brienne was also not discovered.

 

 

"Third, that Northerners still love the Starks was the whole basis for them going to Winterfell --it's why the Boltons and Stannis are assumed to want her. That's not new information. She just stupidly decides to go to a place where she has no allies instead of seeking out these Northern friends, which is, again, what anyone with a functioning brain would have done."

 

She didn't think she had no allies, she thought she had LF, defacto Lord of the Vale and an ally of the Boltons.  She knew this family had done her family wrong, but she also believed she could get to them from within and would be protected by the fact that they needed her. She had no way of knowing about Ramsey's level of crazy, just that the family was as warlike as the rest of the North and was ambitious, possibly was responding to Robb's mistakes, etc. This story was not put together all that well. I would have liked to see more of Sansa planning with others, just to make trouble around Winterfell, but this was hastily formed from the other story. I'd rather her have killed a few folks with rat poison first.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Paradigm14

[Oscirus]

The thing about Sansa is that she's an anomaly on this show. She was bought up in a different way from most women on the show. The lead female characters on this show were bought up with varying aspects of scheming/fighting ability, Sansa was bought up to be a "proper" lady. So those expecting her to be anything else then what's portrayed on TV are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

Now to address the misconception that her season five arc is a repeat of her previous season arcs. In the earlier seasons, Sansa was protected from having bad things happen to her by either Tyrion, the hound or LIttlefinger. Yes bad things happened to the people she loved which was emotionally traumatic, but physically, nothing ever happened to her. This was the first season which she was forced to actually save herself since as far as she knew, there was nobody around to protect her. Some would say that Theon delivered the killing blow to Myranda, and I would argue that it was her will to not allow herself to just become another mindless Bolton slave that finally encouraged Theon to snap out of his Reek persona. This season represented a huge step in moving her from a background character to the forefront.

 

Now to the unpopular part of this post. I'd say that putting her in Winterfell as opposed to the Vale was an improvement. I know the argument is that book readers would love to see her learning to plot from the master, but ultimately, Arya's training storyline was boring so I can only imagine how boring that Sansa's storyline would've been.  By putting her in the middle of the action, they got to give Sansa a lot more TV time ( Only Tyrion had more episodes then her this season). If anything, I'm surprised that more people aren't complaining about her hijacking Theon's storyline.

 

The main problem with Sansa is that there's unrealistic expectations put upon her. To expect her to be able to out plot the Ramseys who've been doing what they've been doing for years is crazy. Also why would anybody expect Sansa to rush somebody with a weapon pointed at her. She might've been determined at that point, but she wasn't suicidal. 

[Avaleigh]

The main problem with Sansa is that there's unrealistic expectations put upon her. To expect her to be able to out plot the Ramseys who've been doing what they've been doing for years is crazy. Also why would anybody expect Sansa to rush somebody with a weapon pointed at her. She might've been determined at that point, but she wasn't suicidal. 

Thank you for this especially the part in bold. 

 

I agree too that it made more sense for Sansa to not rush Myranda. Myranda said she was trying to injure Sansa as opposed to trying to kill her. I feel like rushing Myranda would have increased Sansa's chances of getting a fatal would. JMO.  

[SeanC]

Now to address the misconception that her season five arc is a repeat of her previous season arcs. In the earlier seasons, Sansa was protected from having bad things happen to her by either Tyrion, the hound or LIttlefinger. Yes bad things happened to the people she loved which was emotionally traumatic, but physically, nothing ever happened to her. This was the first season which she was forced to actually save herself since as far as she knew, there was nobody around to protect her. Some would say that Theon delivered the killing blow to Myranda, and I would argue that it was her will to not allow herself to just become another mindless Bolton slave that finally encouraged Theon to snap out of his Reek persona. This season represented a huge step in moving her from a background character to the forefront.

Sansa was not "protected from having bad things happen to her" in earlier seasons.  She was viciously abused in King's Landing, physically and psychologically.

 

Sansa didn't save herself.  Theon saved her, motivated by, at most, her inadvertent influence.  All her actual attempts to save herself failed.

 

The main problem with Sansa is that there's unrealistic expectations put upon her. To expect her to be able to out plot the Ramseys who've been doing what they've been doing for years is crazy. Also why would anybody expect Sansa to rush somebody with a weapon pointed at her. She might've been determined at that point, but she wasn't suicidal.

It's not an unrealistic expectation that if the plot contrives to send her to Winterfell there's something she can actually do there.  Seeing as she's meant to be learning to play the game of thrones, it's completely nonsensical to send her somewhere she can't do that.

I agree too that it made more sense for Sansa to not rush Myranda. Myranda said she was trying to injure Sansa as opposed to trying to kill her. I feel like rushing Myranda would have increased Sansa's chances of getting a fatal would. JMO.  

Except she wanted a fatal wound.  She explicitly said she'd rather die than be returned to face a lifetime of rape, torture, and mutilation.

Edited July 12, 2015 by SeanC

[Oscirus]

Sansa was not "protected from having bad things happen to her" in earlier seasons.  She was viciously abused in King's Landing, physically and psychologically.

 

I already conceded the psychological part. But physically what happened to her?  She's about to get beat with a sword, but  Tyrion stops that, she's about to get raped but Hound saves her, she's about to get stripped (and prob worse) at her wedding party but Tyrion stops that, Littlefinger saves her from getting thrown through the moon door.  Unbent , Unbowed, Unbroken was the first time that something actually happened to her.

 

It's not an unrealistic expectation that if the plot contrives to send her to Winterfell there's something she can actually do there.  Seeing as she's meant to be learning to play the game of thrones, it's completely nonsensical to send her somewhere she can't do that.

 

 

The point of the plot was to get her to Winterfell, ASAP. Likely because she has something to do with the North's eventual resurgence. That she's unable to outplay people who have been playing the game for years is realistic. It would've happened the same way whenever she returned, regardless of whether or not she had training at the Vale.

 

Except she wanted a fatal wound.  She explicitly said she'd rather die than be returned to face a lifetime of rape, torture, and mutilation.

 

 

 

Sansa's not a trained fighter,  having a weapon pointed at her is not a normal thing. That she would freeze at something like that makes sense.

[Hecate7]

She said "IF" I'm to die, not "I want to die."

[Avaleigh]

Sansa was not "protected from having bad things happen to her" in earlier seasons.  She was viciously abused in King's Landing, physically and psychologically.

 

Sansa didn't save herself.  Theon saved her, motivated by, at most, her inadvertent influence.  All her actual attempts to save herself failed.

 

It's not an unrealistic expectation that if the plot contrives to send her to Winterfell there's something she can actually do there.  Seeing as she's meant to be learning to play the game of thrones, it's completely nonsensical to send her somewhere she can't do that.

Except she wanted a fatal wound.  She explicitly said she'd rather die than be returned to face a lifetime of rape, torture, and mutilation.

As Hecate has pointed out, Sansa said "if". She was confronting the possibility that she would be killed saying 'If I'm going to die.' If she's going to die then she's going to face it but she isn't going to be their play thing anymore. To me it wasn't the same as being suicidal and wanting Myranda to kill her. I don't think she wanted Myranda to hurt her at all. If Sansa really wanted to die she could have just killed herself .

[ElizaD]

The thing about Sansa is that she's an anomaly on this show. She was bought up in a different way from most women on the show. The lead female characters on this show were bought up with varying aspects of scheming/fighting ability, Sansa was bought up to be a "proper" lady. So those expecting her to be anything else then what's portrayed on TV are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

Now to address the misconception that her season five arc is a repeat of her previous season arcs. In the earlier seasons, Sansa was protected from having bad things happen to her by either Tyrion, the hound or LIttlefinger. Yes bad things happened to the people she loved which was emotionally traumatic, but physically, nothing ever happened to her. This was the first season which she was forced to actually save herself since as far as she knew, there was nobody around to protect her. Some would say that Theon delivered the killing blow to Myranda, and I would argue that it was her will to not allow herself to just become another mindless Bolton slave that finally encouraged Theon to snap out of his Reek persona. This season represented a huge step in moving her from a background character to the forefront.

 

The main problem with Sansa is that there's unrealistic expectations put upon her. To expect her to be able to out plot the Ramseys who've been doing what they've been doing for years is crazy. Also why would anybody expect Sansa to rush somebody with a weapon pointed at her. She might've been determined at that point, but she wasn't suicidal. 

 

A proper lady doesn't have to be braindead, which Sansa was when she agreed to go to Winterfell, to her brother's killer, without a plan (and a proper lady would be expected to have some social skills and understanding of household management, so Sansa doesn't have the excuse of being brought up to do nothing but look pretty, keep her mouth shut, and sit down - in fact, she probably received a better and more useful education than Dany, who started hustling even before she got her dragons). She could have avoided all this by having the sense to tell Littlefinger that there's nothing to be gained from giving the Boltons a hostage and that she's not going to do a single thing once she gets to Winterfell, so she might as well stay away. That's not setting the bar too high.

 

There doesn't need to be penetration before something can be called sexual assault or violence. Attempted gang rape and public humiliation aren't meaningless little incidents just because there always exists something even worse. In 5x10 Cersei wasn't raped by a mob out of control, yet I wouldn't say that nothing happened to her. Even by the book fandom, Sansa's abuse is trivialized because was no penetration, as if a rape that is completed is the only thing you're allowed to be hurt by and the inevitable conclusion to her story: that gives her abusers a pass because she didn't really suffer and means she gets no respect for the strength of character she did show in maintaining a perfect act so that even Tyrion didn't suspect what was going on in her head.

 

It's season 5. I don't think it was unrealistic to expect Sansa to be capable of something, to be given at least a tiny bit of the luck and initiative the other characters get to display and to show that some of her post-season 1 experiences have gotten through her thick skull and taught her caution. Instead she's a sheep who meekly follows Littlefinger, shows zero initiative before the wedding when she could at least attempt to find out something rather than sulking, makes one attempt to talk to Theon and then gives up, and similarly makes one attempt to escape on her own and then gives up when Myranda appears and promises to return her to Ramsay. She could have avoided all this by saying no to Littlefinger's idiotic plan, and she didn't try to do a single thing to avenge her family even though that's how he sold the marriage to her. Sansa didn't get even the tiniest win: she was beaten by Myranda, of all people, to show just how much of a delusional idiot she was when she acted brave in front of her and called Winterfell her home. She submitted to further rape and torture when she could at least have tried to choose dying as herself.

 

Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Dany... all the other characters are doing something. They don't succeed at everything, but they're going up against different kinds of opponents and getting some wins and gains in addition to their losses. They're learning and growing. Only Sansa is incapable of being anything more than a puppet to be raped or rescued. She's the only character who has to exist in a "realistic" universe where expecting her to be of any use at all is expecting too much. She shared a storyline with Ramsay, hardly the embodiment of realism as a lover so great his girlfriend would kill for him, a shirtless badass who sends the Ironborn running, and a brilliant strategian whose little commando force reduces the greatest general in Westeros to such despair that he sacrifices his daughter. Ramsay can do all this, yet Sansa not acting like an idiot and not giving up is impossible on this show. If we shouldn't expect her to be anything more than opportunity for scenes of abuse that escalate until they've finally started counting as abuse thanks to the rape, we might as well be watching more brothel scenes; at least it's been clear from the start that those will lead to nothing.

Edited July 12, 2015 by ElizaD

[SeanC]

I already conceded the psychological part. But physically what happened to her?  She's about to get beat with a sword, but  Tyrion stops that, she's about to get raped but Hound saves her, she's about to get stripped (and prob worse) at her wedding party but Tyrion stops that, Littlefinger saves her from getting thrown through the moon door. 

 

The point of the plot was to get her to Winterfell, ASAP. Likely because she has something to do with the North's eventual resurgence. That she's unable to outplay people who have been playing the game for years is realistic. It would've happened the same way whenever she returned, regardless of whether or not she had training at the Vale.

She wasn't "about" to get beaten, she was getting beaten, which was the culmination of prior physical abuse that Joffrey ordered.

 

The point of the plot was to get her to Winterfell so that she could be raped and abused and then rescued by Theon.  If they wanted to get her to the North, there were innumerable ways to do that.  And the idea that this was inevitable is ridiculous, because any sensible person would never have gone into the Boltons' power to begin with, and if they agreed to, it would only be because they had an actual plan for how to defeat them (and no, sitting around doing nothing is not a plan).

[Advance35]

Now to address the misconception that her season five arc is a repeat of her previous season arcs. In the earlier seasons, Sansa was protected from having bad things happen to her by either Tyrion, the hound or LIttlefinger. Yes bad things happened to the people she loved which was emotionally traumatic, but physically, nothing ever happened to her. This was the first season which she was forced to actually save herself since as far as she knew, there was nobody around to protect her.

 

 

The show and producers have definitely toned down the abuse Sansa suffered in Kings Landing.  In the books things are much worse and some of the abuse Sansa suffers has a definite sexual connotation to it.   And since the show runners are SO abuse happy, I'm surprised that they allowed the book scene between Sandor and Sansa during the Battle of Blackwater to be as toned down as it was.   How did they let that happen? (Sarcasm).   Joffrey had her dress torn in the Throne Room and The Mob attack in episode 6.   Other than that she just wandered around Kings Landing's Red Keep or at least that's how it seemed to me.

 

She comes across as a much stronger person in Season 5. 

 

And i maintain that I don't truly blame her for getting in line with Littlefinger.  She is/was aware that he didn't tell her everything but he had gotten them THAT far.   He's the reason she isn't facing execution in Kings Landing and the reason she didn't go splat through the Moon Door in the Vale.   She went to Winterfell thinking that LF would be there the whole time and that he'd keep the situation under control.   Neither she nor LF thought he would be summoned by Cersei back to Kings Landing.

 

I thought it was an awesome season for the character and I was riveted by the Winterfell Storyline.  I think Sansa's got one of the best ongoing saga's in this story since she gets to interact with such a menagerie of characters in a variety of circumstances.   She continues to outlive her enemies and it's cool to see.

[Portia4844]

How is Sansa coming off stronger in Season 5?  Is it because she suggested to Ramsey that the baby could be a problem, trying to get through to Theon, putting the candle out, picking up the tool off the ledge, picking the lock, making a few snarky comments, being willing to die rather than continue being tortured, and jumping off the wall?   She endured the abuse much like she did in King's Landing, made snarky comments, and made choices that got her out of KL.  

 

I don't see how she was any different than she's always been with the exception of now preferring death to continuing on as she has been.  Nothing about her time at Winterfell comes off as Sansa becoming stronger.  It was all about Ramsey and Theon and using Sansa in the place of JP.  

[Advance35]

Sansa never suggested anything to Ramsay about Walda or her baby that I can recall.

 

And I think she was at her most passive in Kings Landing.  The most pro-active thing she did was throw in with House Tyrell.   That's it.  She played no hand in her escape, the only person she ever stood up too in any capacity was Shae (in the beginning).    I don't recall any snarky comments.    And after the Tyrell plot went bust, I believe that was when she gave up finding a way out from under the thumb of House Lannister, until the Purple Wedding where Dontos took her hand and dragged her behind him as he ran.  

 

I thought she was a much more steely individual in Season 5.  I got the impression she wasn't so much on the side of Good or Evil, more the side of Sansa with a preference for good.   Between Stannis (before he had his daughter double as fire wood) and The Boltons, when she and LF were discussing the upcoming battle she seemed relatively indifferent about which side would kill which.    She's no player yet, but she's got the detachment of a player and that's a start in my eyes.

 

Her situation has continued to evolve, whereas in Kings Landing she was a Lannister with a convenient escape route from the marriage (a.k.a Tyrion not willing to consumate) she is lock, stock and barrel a Bolton now.   To me it feels like she's the only Stark who's situation ever REALLY changes (other than death that is), everyone else just seems to tread the same water to me.  But I guess that's subjective.

[Portia4844]

I believe Sansa did mention the baby to Ramsey when he boasts about being Warden of the North.   As far as her escape from King's Landing I could be confusing the book with the show.  

 

LittleFinger tells her that Stannis winning would mean he needs a Stark in Winterfell.  It seemed to me that Sansa found that more appealing than the Boltons being in Winterfell so it didn't seem that she was indifferent to who would win.  Had it been Stannis riding through the gates instead of Ramsey, I doubt she would have felt the need to jump over the wall to escape him.  

 

It could be subjective since I've never viewed Jon, Bran, or Arya as treading the same water.  I've enjoyed their journey in both the books and show much more than Sansa where it seems it's abuse, rescue, abuse, rescue and ends in preferring death over more abuse.  

[Advance35]

How is Sansa coming off stronger in Season 5?  Is it because she suggested to Ramsey that the baby could be a problem,

 

Phrasing, I didn't know you mean't the scene where she taunts him with his status against that of a "trueborn".

 

And maybe the scene with LF (in the crypts) is subjective to perception of Acting talent, because Sansa seemed very non-invested when she said "What if Stannis doesn't win", she could have been said "What if they serve Pears instead of grapes" in the same inflection and tone IMO.   At the time she didn't seem especially repelled with the idea of making Ramsay "her own", she just didn't know how.

 

It could be subjective since I've never viewed Jon, Bran, or Arya as treading the same water.  I've enjoyed their journey in both the books and show much more than Sansa where it seems it's abuse, rescue, abuse, rescue and ends in preferring death over more abuse.

 

*Shakes Head* your not the only one.  I just cant think of 3 more boring characters.   Jon got better when Stannis showed up at the wall, but Arya wandered the countryside being "fiesty" for what felt like eternity and Bran and the rest of his Goonies did pretty much the same thing after CoK.  But in Bran's case the mysticism is one of the least interesting aspects of ASOIAF as far as I'm concerend.

 

I just like that Sansa has so much histroy with marque characters in this story.   How she reacts to people, how they react to her.   Oh well, Tomato, Potato.

[Oscirus]

A proper lady doesn't have to be braindead, which Sansa was when she agreed to go to Winterfell, to her brother's killer, without a plan

 

Do you consider Tyrion braindead for going to Dany (aka the woman who his family is responsible for slaughtering) without a plan?

 

fact, she probably received a better and more useful education than Dany, who started hustling even before she got her dragons

 

Dany's brother taught her the history of her family and actually gave her survival lessons, Sansa was taught how to sew and set a table, I would say Dany got the better education in terms of adapting to their given situations.

 

There doesn't need to be penetration before something can be called sexual assault or violence. Attempted gang rape and public humiliation aren't meaningless little incidents just because there always exists something even worse. In 5x10 Cersei wasn't raped by a mob out of control, yet I wouldn't say that nothing happened to her. Even by the book fandom, Sansa's abuse is trivialized because was no penetration, as if a rape that is completed is the only thing you're allowed to be hurt by and the inevitable conclusion to her story: that gives her abusers a pass because she didn't really suffer and means she gets no respect for the strength of character she did show in maintaining a perfect act so that even Tyrion didn't suspect what was going on in her head

 

 

I've already acknowledged the psychological torture that she went through. If we were talking about the real world, I'd agree that Sansa's attackers should be bought up on sexual assault charges. But  to avoid arguing over semantics, the violence perpetrated against  Sansa never reached the point of no return until  season five. I would still argue that this is the first that she has been on her own. So her story is a different story altogether from the first four seasons.

 

Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Dany... all the other characters are doing something. They don't succeed at everything, but they're going up against different kinds of opponents and getting some wins and gains in addition to their losses. They're learning and growing. Only Sansa is incapable of being anything more than a puppet to be raped or rescued.

 

Arya's  plan since season one has been to run around like a chicken with it's head cut off and run into the right characters. Hell, this season alone, Jacquen had to save her from herself at least twice.  Tyrion has pretty much reverted to his season one persona, the only difference being that he has Varys looking out for him now.  I'll give you Jon and Dany. But the point is that Sansa is one of the few characters that has yet to have been in power so we don't know what she's capable of. What you see as a puppet, I see as someone adapting and evolving to the continual trouble that she's exposed to. She's probably done it better then anybody else on the show.

 

And the idea that this was inevitable is ridiculous, because any sensible person would never have gone into the Boltons' power to begin with,

 

 

In addition to the earlier Tyrion example, any sensible person wouldn't have gone through a leper's colony because it was a shortcut, any sensible person would've told the night's watch that he was attacked by zombies as opposed to only telling his friend etc. Point being that people in this story make weird/stupid decisions when under duress.  She's not the only one.

 

And i maintain that I don't truly blame her for getting in line with Littlefinger.  She is/was aware that he didn't tell her everything but he had gotten them THAT far.   He's the reason she isn't facing execution in Kings Landing and the reason she didn't go splat through the Moon Door in the Vale.   She went to Winterfell thinking that LF would be there the whole time and that he'd keep the situation under control. 

 

  Well stated.

 

 

[polyhymnia]

I'm not sure she really had a choice WRT going back to Winterfell.  Do we really think that Littlefinger would have been "okay, my bad, let's get back to the Vale" if she had said no?  Hardly.  He would have talked her into it or forced her into it.  I can't see her acceptance as a bad decision as I don't think she really had another choice.

 

I would have liked her arc 100% more if she had caused some sort of even minor chaos in Winterfell while there, though.

[SeanC]

I'm not sure she really had a choice WRT going back to Winterfell.  Do we really think that Littlefinger would have been "okay, my bad, let's get back to the Vale" if she had said no? 

Aiden Gillen thinks so, from his interviews; the other actors and the writers, likewise, have said it was a real choice.  I agree that makes no sense based on the scenario, but that's what bad writing gets you.

[Portia4844]

If Sansa had a choice then it seems it might have been a discussions before heading out on their journey.  Instead, they stop and he shows her enough to know where they're headed and then a few minutes of dialogue to convince her that she'll get revenge.  Did she just hop on a horse to go with LF without once asking him where they were going?  It's frustrating to have the actors and writers claim she had a choice and how strong Sansa has become when that isn't what is shown.  Maybe an additional season will give the writers time to actually show what they claim is going on.  

[Advance35]

What you see as a puppet, I see as someone adapting and evolving to the continual trouble that she's exposed to. She's probably done it better then anybody else on the show.

 

 

It's amazing to me really.   Seeing how/if Sansa will make it through the latest turn of events has been one of the best ongoing storylines in the whole series IMO.   It was the end of the 3rd book when I started to notice that what seemed like passivity was a concentrated determination to do everything she could to survive.   And then I noticed some of the characters lauded for taking "action" seemed to be continually fallng around her.   Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Tywin, Shae, Renly.  

 

Arya has successfuly relied on the kindness of strangers like Gendry and Jacquen.   Dany for all her lauded "fierceness" relies on her dragons and the men around her that seem to be enchanted.   I've never been overly impressed with either and not very invested in thier stories in all honesty (after Season/book 1).

 

Season 1/2 Sansa would not have had the presence of mind to snatch something that might help her pick a lock, she would have been to busy cowering in Ramsay's presence.    And the inner strength it takes to maintain sanity while haveing to endure Ramsay's nightly visits is incalculable to me.  I think Sansa is pretty unbreakable on the inside and that is not something that's true for every character in this story.

 

Winterfell was a completely different battleground to that of Kings Landing or even the Vale IMO.   The Boltons come with a certain savagery, any civility is just a veneer but in a different and I'd say more severe way than that of Kings Landing.  Game Playing would'nt work so much there, I think it's more, what do you have that we want, what do you have that could stop us from killing you and taking it atmosphere.  It's certainly the way Ramsay operates.

 

And I maintain that Sansa went with LF to Winterfell thinking she would be the Margaery to his Olenna.  I really wish we had more time with Roose, Ramsay, Sansa and LF all together.  In the one scene we got she was impeccably mannered and oblique.  I think she was counting on LF being there and inacting some form of double cross, a manuever she would have gladly contributed too.  The show has shown us that without Olenna and House Tyrell's resources Margaery isn't terribly impressive and she's been around Game Playing her whole life, I certainly don't hold Sansa to a higher standard.

 

 

I would still argue that this is the first that she has been on her own. So her story is a different story altogether from the first four seasons.

 

IA.  And I think it's made Winterfell/The North one of the most interesting locations for the first time ever, the earlier seasons, The Northern characters  bored the crap out of me, even when it was Robb, Catelyn and Roose.   I was on the edge of my seat in each Winterfell scene.   I would have happily given Arya the Bran treatment this season if it mean't we could have had more time with Roose, LF, Theon, Sansa and Ramsay in Winterfell.

[SeanC]

Season 1/2 Sansa would not have had the presence of mind to snatch something that might help her pick a lock, she would have been to busy cowering in Ramsay's presence.

Even assuming that's true, it's only because the show cut most of her book story. Book 2 Sansa had no difficulty scavenging a knife when she felt she needed one.

[Advance35]

Well I can agree that Sansa's time in Kings Landing was VERY watered down.   In the book there is consistent physical danger whereas on the show there was the Throne Room and the Riot.   How did these abuse happy showrunners miss the amusement park of depravity that was book 2 for Sansa?

 

That Sandor/Sansa scene during Blackwater should have been like a trip to Madi Gras, the way fandom describes D&D.

[Advance35]

Given the preview/trailers I figured this was a character thread that deserved to be bumped up.  And I also read an interesting blurb from ST on TV Line. 

 

“This is the season where she’s starting to turn things around and people are starting to rally for her,” previews Turner. “She’s trying to get people to listen to her. She’s building a group of trusted people that will help her get what she wants, which is — ultimately — revenge.”

 

While ST can frequently take a little dramatic license in terms of the Sansa Character's storyline, I don't think she's ever been so declarative before.   I consider Sophie to be pretty oblique in terms of future plots and motivations, keeping it at survival and learning from those around her.   Her saying that Sansa's ultimate goal is "revenge" is really making me curious about the details of Sansa's storyline this season, since it's a notable contrast to her book counterparts emotional position.  

 

In the show I got the impression that the character has an apetite for revenge based on her scenes in Season 4, when she was speaking with Lord Robyn and smirking when he started joking about how they could throw anyone they hate through the moon door.  I expect we'll see some good (meaning bad for her enemies, lol) things from Sansa in the coming times.

[GrailKing]

Given the preview/trailers I figured this was a character thread that deserved to be bumped up.  And I also read an interesting blurb from ST on TV Line. 

 

 

While ST can frequently take a little dramatic license in terms of the Sansa Character's storyline, I don't think she's ever been so declarative before.   I consider Sophie to be pretty oblique in terms of future plots and motivations, keeping it at survival and learning from those around her.   Her saying that Sansa's ultimate goal is "revenge" is really making me curious about the details of Sansa's storyline this season, since it's a notable contrast to her book counterparts emotional position.  

 

In the show I got the impression that the character has an apetite for revenge based on her scenes in Season 4, when she was speaking with Lord Robyn and smirking when he started joking about how they could throw anyone they hate through the moon door.  I expect we'll see some good (meaning bad for her enemies, lol) things from Sansa in the coming times.

Is it?

she takes the knife when she makes the decision to go to the Godswood of KL to meet the stranger, her skin has turned from porcelain to ivory to steel, she keeps the hairnet, she challenges Joffry on the rampart with "or maybe he'll give me yours" (head from Robb), she refuses to kneel at her marriage, the Queen runs from her guest in the holdfast who takes up? yup Sansa, she picks up on things rather quickly then tries to use them, Dontos tells her he learns more because people think he's dumb and silent, she follows, in the Vale LF wants her to lie and be his daughter for real in heart and mind, yet in her head she tells us she's not his; she's the daughter of Lord Eddard and Lady Caitlyn " the blood of Winterfell"

In the thread about the show wardrobe I list all the symbolism of Sansa Stark, and it works very well with the title of this thread. Everything screams she's waiting to explode and take revenge; the question becomes does she loose her humanity with it?

Here's to the Shewolf of Winterfell long may she reign.

[SeanC]

Is it?

I think so.  Sansa's definitely got flashes of anger, but for the most part she just wants to get away from her enemies; even when Joffrey, who she hated more than anyone else, died, she remarked that she felt kind of sad about (simultaneous with elation) it and had nightmares.  She's never come across to me as somebody husbanding a calculated desire for revenge.

[GrailKing]

I think so.  Sansa's definitely got flashes of anger, but for the most part she just wants to get away from her enemies; even when Joffrey, who she hated more than anyone else, died, she remarked that she felt kind of sad about (simultaneous with elation) it and had nightmares.  She's never come across to me as somebody husbanding a calculated desire for revenge.

I'm in partial agreement, though to me the signs are there that she is capable.

 

How far would she go? if she goes full bore like Cersei I see her dying, if she keeps the humanity and takes out only LF she could live and come back as a smarter Lady, Stark's version of the Queen of Thorns ( my hope )

Edited April 13, 2016 by GrailKing

[Hecate7]

I'm not sure she really had a choice WRT going back to Winterfell.  Do we really think that Littlefinger would have been "okay, my bad, let's get back to the Vale" if she had said no?  Hardly.  He would have talked her into it or forced her into it.  I can't see her acceptance as a bad decision as I don't think she really had another choice.

 

I would have liked her arc 100% more if she had caused some sort of even minor chaos in Winterfell while there, though.

 

I think she's caused plenty, actually, simply by leaving when she did. That Theon killed Miranda is actually a result of Sansa's choice to try to run.

 

 

Even by the book fandom, Sansa's abuse is trivialized because was no penetration, as if a rape that is completed is the only thing you're allowed to be hurt by and the inevitable conclusion to her story: that gives her abusers a pass because she didn't really suffer and means she gets no respect for the strength of character she did show in maintaining a perfect act so that even Tyrion didn't suspect what was going on in her head.

 

 

I don't think it trivializes abuse to point out that rape and abuse are not synonyms. Sansa has been subjected to phenomenal amounts of abuse, and, now, to one rape that in her world doesn't count at all since she had just married her assailant and agreed to consummate the marriage.

 

Although any sort of assault or sexual assault is traumatic, and Sansa has suffered quite a lot, I think it trivializes rape not to distinguish between it, and attempted rape, sexual harassment, or other kinds of abuse. They are different and deserve to be treated differently.

 

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Sansa is a different type of character than Danaerys or Arya. Think of it as a game. Sansa's character class, like Catelyn, Lyssa, Selyse, Cersei, Ellaria, Margaery, Myrcella, and Shireen, is damsel. Damsels have charisma, intelligence, stealth, and high magical potential. They have great speechcraft potential. They can persuade, seduce, discourage, demoralize, and poison. Only damsels can become queens, and only at high levels. As Sansa levels, her "bosses" change. At this level, just staying alive is enough of a feat. Sansa will grow. What she will not do, is become a fighter. Neither will Tyrion or Sam, so I'm not sure why it's constantly being held against Sansa that she "doesn't do anything," meaning she hasn't killed anyone yet.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Hecate7

[Advance35]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Sansa is a different type of character than Danaerys or Arya. Think of it as a game. Sansa's character class, like Catelyn, Lyssa, Selyse, Cersei, Ellaria, Margaery, Myrcella, and Shireen, is damsel. Damsels have charisma, intelligence, stealth, and high magical potential. They have great speechcraft potential. They can persuade, seduce, discourage, demoralize, and poison. Only damsels can become queens, and only at high levels. As Sansa levels, her "bosses" change. At this level, just staying alive is enough of a feat. Sansa will grow. What she will not do, is become a fighter. Neither will Tyrion or Sam, so I'm not sure why it's constantly being held against Sansa that she "doesn't do anything," meaning she hasn't killed anyone yet.

 

This is actually the aspect of Sansa's character I like the most.  That mixed with what I view as the unpredictable nature of her arc, makes her unique IMO.   I would never want her to become a physical fighter.

 

I don't think it trivializes abuse to point out that rape and abuse are not synonyms. Sansa has been subjected to phenomenal amounts of abuse, and, now, to one rape that in her world doesn't count at all since she had just married her assailant and agreed to consummate the marriage.

 

Very much this.  Though I do think prior to Season 5 people weren't as sympathetic to Sansa because the abuse she suffered didn't seem as pronounced.  This is BIG departure from the way he time in Kings Landing is presented in the books.   Amidst everything that happens in Westeros (and in the television medium), psychological abuse isn't given the gravity it should be, unless it's the result of maiming ala Theon Greyjoy.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Advance35

[GrailKing]

I think she's caused plenty, actually, simply by leaving when she did. That Theon killed Miranda is actually a result of Sansa's choice to try to run.

 

 

I don't think it trivializes abuse to point out that rape and abuse are not synonyms. Sansa has been subjected to phenomenal amounts of abuse, and, now, to one rape that in her world doesn't count at all since she had just married her assailant and agreed to consummate the marriage.

 

Although any sort of assault or sexual assault is traumatic, and Sansa has suffered quite a lot, I think it trivializes rape not to distinguish between it, and attempted rape, sexual harassment, or other kinds of abuse. They are different and deserve to be treated differently.

 

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. Sansa is a different type of character than Danaerys or Arya. Think of it as a game. Sansa's character class, like Catelyn, Lyssa, Selyse, Cersei, Ellaria, Margaery, Myrcella, and Shireen, is damsel. Damsels have charisma, intelligence, stealth, and high magical potential. They have great speechcraft potential. They can persuade, seduce, discourage, demoralize, and poison. Only damsels can become queens, and only at high levels. As Sansa levels, her "bosses" change. At this level, just staying alive is enough of a feat. Sansa will grow. What she will not do, is become a fighter. Neither will Tyrion or Sam, so I'm not sure why it's constantly being held against Sansa that she "doesn't do anything," meaning she hasn't killed anyone yet.

Actually she will / is a fighter, using exactly the tools of her class as you mentioned; Tyrion picked up on how much of a benefit she would have been to Joffry,if he wasn't a dickish moron.

In book there is foreshadowing, and in show via Tyrion's words Sansa's not a killer, not yet anyway.

 

And in book and show both Tyrion and Sam killed, be it a war or self defence mechanism,or Tyrion taking out dad and Shae, he did more in the books.

[AliShibaz]

I love watching Sansa learn, and adapt, and survive. I also like that her Stark/Tully strength comes out more like her mother's does: she uses courtesy to keep her head and her place, hides her feelings, and works for her own ends in the back channels.

Nice observation. Sansa is obviously a survivor. She certainly doesn't give off any survivor airs. But she must be a great survivor to have made it so far deep into the story. I'm guessing that she will get pushed even further into a corner - kind of like being wound and wound like a clock spring - and then finally bursting forth with an incredible amount of vengence and I hope we will see her exact one whole Hell of a lot of vengence and retribution.

 

Many people say that Sansa is their favorite character. I would just ask everyone to think of the answer to this question. "How could she possibly not be anyone's favorite character?"

[Advance35]

I think she's awesome for so many reasons but I think one aspect of her arc that appeals to me, is all of the eclectic characters she gets to play off of.  From an interaction standpoint is there another character in this story as well mingled as Sansa.   She's pretty much had a notable interaction with every major character with the exception of Jaimie and the Martells.

 

Her scenes in the season premier were equal parts riveting and exhausting.   When she and Theon took refuge under that fallen tree and he kept repeating Sansa, before pulling her to him and trying to help her keep warm.  AA and ST did wonderful work in their scenes.   When she closed her eyes, she just seemed so tired in pretty much every way.   Exhaustion, disbelief, fear, sadness at what her life had come to.   The whole thing was surprisingly touching.

 

A wonderfully layered character.

[areca]

I think Sansa is going to get Lady Stoneheart's vengeance storyline.

[GrailKing]

I think she's awesome for so many reasons but I think one aspect of her arc that appeals to me, is all of the eclectic characters she gets to play off of.  From an interaction standpoint is there another character in this story as well mingled as Sansa.   She's pretty much had a notable interaction with every major character with the exception of Jaimie and the Martells.

 

Her scenes in the season premier were equal parts riveting and exhausting.   When she and Theon took refuge under that fallen tree and he kept repeating Sansa, before pulling her to him and trying to help her keep warm.  AA and ST did wonderful work in their scenes.   When she closed her eyes, she just seemed so tired in pretty much every way.   Exhaustion, disbelief, fear, sadness at what her life had come to.   The whole thing was surprisingly touching.

 

A wonderfully layered character.

Only one other character has more face time with other people and it's Tyrion, between them they may know enough to play the whole system, if they wind up back together.