Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[ursula]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The Starks ruling the North is just an accident of birth. But the Northerners are somewhat comfortable with this tradition. It feels right to them. They don't have a problem with a Stark saying this is their country or whatever.

That's not what happened:

41 minutes ago, ursula said:

[Stark claim on Winterfell] was an unpopular decision that the Northern lords received with "contempt and loathing". They didn't win the North with "hearts and minds". They won it with brute force. Jon and Sansa invaded the North with an army of foreigners (wildlings - fricking wildlings! - and Vale soliders) and one lone Northern army to attack the legitimate Warden of the North and his bannermen.

The Northern lords only rallied around them when they won. Which was... convenient.

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They've never felt as comfortable about being one of 7 kingdoms ruled by the Iron Throne. The attitude Sansa is expressing is even older than the one Dany is.

Debatable. It's not just a deviation from the books to the show, but even a deviation from what (Umber? I think?) initially said when he declared : "why should we be ruled from their flowery South? It was the dragons we married and now the dragons are dead." But I guess if the show wants to suddenly claim that it's been a long-running resentment, we have to take that retcon much the same way we take the one that Jon "gave up his crown" in exchange for Dany's help. 🤷

Anyway, there's a fundamental difference between: they (Dany or Sansa) will face opposition to reclaim their birthright and they (Dany, or Sansa) have no right to try to reclaim their birthright, which was the argument being made against.

Edited May 11, 2019 by ursula

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

That's not what happened. Sansa and Jon weren't welcomed by the Northern Lords. Stark bannermen refused to join their cause. Even Lyanna initially said: "I won't spill one more Mormont blood in another Stark war". She wasn't swayed by Jon's heritage but by his "C.V." as Lord Commander. That was the whole reason why they needed wildlings and the Vale. 

The Northern lords only rallied around them when they won. Which was... convenient.

Yes, exactly. They don't automatically defer to the Starks. They might back somebody else in a fight. But when the Starks have won the title back by force they might respect the force they won by and adjust to that. Force has always been one of the things that gets people the respect. Jon bowing to Dany has not had that same effect.

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

Anyway, there's a fundamental difference between: they (Dany or Sansa) will face opposition to reclaim their birthright and they (Dany, or Sansa) have no right to try to reclaim their birthright. And make no mistake part of this reclaiming, will involve taking lordship of other people's territories and punishing those who weren't "on board" from the beginning. 

I would say they have pretty similar rights when it comes to claiming their birthrights in terms of having a ruling position over whatever people. Same with Jon given his true parentage. The opposition is going to be affected by how other people feel about their right to rule. So far there's a big gap between Dany's impression of her rights and the feeling of many in Westeros. Sansa's less so, but she's also claiming less authority. The only people Sansa's in conflict with is Dany and Jon.

[Meredith Quill]

3 hours ago, Indi said:

Well, your argument was that Sansa talking about an independent North was deserving of some kind of rude rebuke. Sansa was actually talking politics and stating very clearly, that their ambitions were at odds. There was nothing ungrateful or impudent about it.

Nope, clearly you misinterpreted what I said. My argument was about the manner in which it was asked, not what was asked. Manners & courtesy sometimes make all the difference when you're asking someone for something, whether it be a kingdom or a cup of coffee.

3 hours ago, Indi said:

Yours it's as good an interpretation as any. I took it to mean "she's not a Northerner".

That's a fallacy, it isn't an interpretation, mine is taking it at face value. If she meant 'Northerners' she never said that, she said 'us' as all four Starks stood there, alone, together. Again, Jon clarified her statement with "If you only trust who you grew up with you won't have many allies" <--- evidence he (and we) understood she was referring to the Starks. Arya replied - not correcting any misinterpretation, but in fact, confirming his understanding with "I don't need many allies". Case closed.

3 hours ago, Indi said:

That's like saying a common citizen can be an elitist or xenophobic against a foreign invader, who wants to rule your country. 

1. Not an invader, their King bent the knee. They're already her subjects whether they like it or not.
2. Basing mistrust on 'not being from here' IS being xenophobic, no matter the circumstances lol.

3 hours ago, Indi said:

Dany grew up in an entire different continent and culture for most of her life. No one knows her in Westeros and she doesn't know Westeros. I was also born in a different country, than the one I've lived since I was 4. Now, if I thought I should conquer and rule over my country of birth and expect anything but resistance and loathing, I think people would be justified in calling me delusional. 

Henry Tudor disagrees. It happened, it's historical fact.

50 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The point being that Dany is not technically a foreigner, but she practically is. 

Practically she is, but legally she isn't so to call her such is inaccurate, it presumes she has zero ties to Westeros legal or otherwise. Not to mention it was forced upon her, it wasn't her choice. So, for that to be used as a purportedly 'reasonable' argument for why she should GTFO, isn't actually, reasonable or fair. That's what I was getting at.

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

but that whole idea of respect of the monarch is not something they feel so they don't express it. Just as plenty of people would express that about the Queen of England even if they were English.

As an English person (or as good as having lived here since toddlerhood) with British heritage,  I strongly disagree, most people would be courteous - not all, but most. And fwiw, I'm not a monarchist but I would still be polite and respectful.

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile Tyrion's talking about how quickly the people of KL will turn on Cersei, their queen. Sure ideally there's supposed to be this automatic feeling of respect and deference for a monarch, but they've watched people play the game of thrones for a while now and they're going to have their own opinions and preferred narratives.

Not for a monarch who has proved themselves to not give a fig about their people time and time again, let alone act in their best interests.

[izabella]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I would say they have pretty similar rights when it comes to claiming their birthrights in terms of having a ruling position over whatever people. Same with Jon given his true parentage. The opposition is going to be affected by how other people feel about their right to rule. So far there's a big gap between Dany's impression of her rights and the feeling of many in Westeros. Sansa's less so, but she's also claiming less authority. The only people Sansa's in conflict with is Dany and Jon.

My view of Westeros is that it really isn't anyone "right" to rule it, least of all the Targaryans.  They were foreigners who came to a land that wasn't theirs - they fled their own land.  Then they conquered Westeros with dragons and made themselves rulers over everyone where there never was a ruler.   The Targes were invaders and they created the throne where none existed before, and have been ruling for a tiny blip of time in the much longer history of Westeros.  The only thing that gave them any "right" to rule it is that they could defend their power grab with dragons.  Until they couldn't, and were defeated.  At this point, they lost any "right" to the throne unless they can take it back.  No one has a "right" to it.  They make their own "right" by taking Westeros by force.  That is how Cersei is holding the IT now, and she has as much "right" to it as anyone and only for as long as she can hold it.  In Westeros, only might makes "right."

Where I think everyone made a huge mistake after the Mad King was finally deposed and the invading Targs gone is putting anyone on the IT to rule all the Kingdoms.  Robert and Ned should have shoved it into the sea and restored the self-ruled Kingdoms as they were for thousands of years before a guy with dragons took their sovereignty from them.  So I don't blame Sansa one bit for not wanting to be under someone else's rule.  And I was rooting for Dany to take the IT and "break the wheel" by destroying the fucker and taking herself and her dragons back to her ancestor's original homeland.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

My view of Westeros is that it really isn't anyone "right" to rule it, least of all the Targaryans.  They were foreigners who came to a land that wasn't theirs - they fled their own land.  Then they conquered Westeros with dragons and made themselves rulers over everyone where there never was a ruler.   The Targes were invaders and they created the throne where none existed before, and have been ruling for a tiny blip of time in the much longer history of Westeros.  The only thing that gave them any "right" to rule it is that they could defend their power grab with dragons.  Until they couldn't, and were defeated.  At this point, they lost any "right" to the throne unless they can take it back.  No one has a "right" to it.  They make their own "right" by taking Westeros by force.  That is how Cersei is holding the IT now, and she has as much "right" to it as anyone and only for as long as she can hold it.  In Westeros, only might makes "right."

Where I think everyone made a huge mistake after the Mad King was finally deposed and the invading Targs gone is putting anyone on the IT to rule all the Kingdoms.  Robert and Ned should have shoved it into the sea and restored the self-ruled Kingdoms as they were for thousands of years before a guy with dragons took their sovereignty from them.  So I don't blame Sansa one bit for not wanting to be under someone else's rule.  And I was rooting for Dany to take the IT and "break the wheel" by destroying the fucker and taking herself and her dragons back to her ancestor's original homeland.

In the world of utopia everyone would be equal; no monarchs, no lords, no ladies, nobody vying for power and nobody would ever go without. We can all say how we believe the world should be but that won't ever make it so. Power will always be at the heart of any civilisation, that's a sad fact. As we have little choice but to accept that bitter pill, all we can do is work within the parameters of it. What that means in a feudal society is that more often than not 'might is right' is what made rulers rise and fall. Modern eyes may look upon that way of life with utter disdain but we can't change the past, only the future. 

So while the Targs may have been invaders, there was no moral good or bad applied to it in their minds. I think that's where a lot of these arguments get tangled up. Seeking to apply morality to the 'might is right' way of a feudal society. Having the resources needed to become the monarch is what makes or breaks someone seeking to become the monarch (everything else is window dressing; my claim blah blah blah), and people pick a side. They either accept it or rebel, win or lose. To the victor, the spoils, heh. If we start applying 'rights' to that then we'd really have to drill all the way back to the CoTF and the First Men and say, no men have a right to anything in Westeros because they all were invaders.

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

As an English person (or as good as having lived here since toddlerhood) with British heritage,  I strongly disagree, most people would be courteous - not all, but most. And fwiw, I'm not a monarchist but I would still be polite and respectful.

But you're also saying Sansa's asking "What about the North?" seriously and directly is incredibly impolite and disrespectful, which seems to leave no room for somebody to be allowed to stick up for themselves about something they feel strongly about. I think there's plenty of situations where even an English monarchist would stop cheerfully and awkwardly following courtesy rules if something like that came up even with Queen Elizabeth. The public doesn't have any trouble poking fun at her. Seems like there's been some times when royalty had to show courtesy to public sentiment rather than vice versa. The only way Dany wouldn't have had the reaction she had to Sansa's question is if she wasn't serious about it or was ready to back down.

In Dany's case she doesn't even have the history and relationship the current queen of GB has with her subjects.

39 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Not for a monarch who has proved themselves to not give a fig about their people time and time again, let alone act in their best interests.

Seems like that goes along with what I'm saying. Cersei is able to earn contempt even as a queen.

22 minutes ago, izabella said:

My view of Westeros is that it really isn't anyone "right" to rule it, least of all the Targaryans.  They were foreigners who came to a land that wasn't theirs - they fled their own land.  Then they conquered Westeros with dragons and made themselves rulers over everyone where there never was a ruler.  

I agree. It seems like nobody in Westeros much feels a loss of the Targaryans and that's important because they might have. Easy to imagine a world where the public accepted Robert but still felt as if the Targaryans were the "rightful" rulers, whatever that meant to them. That in itself is a source of power, one that's explicitly part of the Aegon threat.

Dany kind of threw a curveball by turning out to be a proactive person intent on getting the throne for herself rather than being used as a pawn for some other group of people, probably men, who wanted to use her to grab power for themselves.

Edited May 11, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Meredith Quill]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But you're also saying Sansa's asking "What about the North?" seriously and directly is incredibly impolite and disrespectful, which seems to leave no room for somebody to be allowed to stick up for themselves about something they feel strongly about. I think there's plenty of situations where even an English monarchist would stop cheerfully and awkwardly following courtesy rules if something like that came up even with Queen Elizabeth. The public doesn't have any trouble poking fun at her. Seems like there's been some times when royalty had to show courtesy to public sentiment rather than vice versa.

Be fair, it wasn't just seriously and direct, it was with an edge. It was a challenge. It most certainly was not polite or respectful, and a continent away from friendly. If you truly believe otherwise, we're at an impasse and there's little left to debate.

I don't understand the 'unable to stick up for themselves about something they feel strongly about' part. When does anyone start a negotiation from an antagonistic stance? How is that being politically savvy, let alone a good negotiator?

The British public poke fun at everyone, nobody is immune, however, do you honestly think 99% of people would do it directly to her face?? The only time in recent history that the monarchy acceded to the will of the people was after Princess Diana died. They lowered the flag at Buck Palace to half mast. That was an extremely rare exception, not the rule. 

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In Dany's case she doesn't even have the history and relationship the current queen of GB has with her subjects.

And? I think we must be talking at odds here because my point is anyone who wants a royal favour would be wise to ask in a courteous, polite - let alone friendly - manner. Not in an essentially "Yeah and what about this then" <glare> manner. Again, they don't have to feel anything, they can feel what they like, but to express those feelings is not wise and will only serve to fan the flames of hostility. If anyone thinks that's the best way to get the thing you want when there's been no prior emnity forthcoming from the other party, then I'm utterly dumbfounded.

[ursula]

Compare Sansa's request for Northern Independence with Yara Greyjoy's. It's also worth noting that in the books and show, unlike the North, the Iron Islands have historically been "bucking" under the unification of Westeros. So her request wasn't only put properly and presented as a negotiation - "I'm not expecting to be given Independence for asking, this is what I'm offering you in exchange", there also in-story precedence for it. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by ursula

[izabella]

24 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

And? I think we must be talking at odds here because my point is anyone who wants a royal favour would be wise to ask in a courteous, polite - let alone friendly - manner. Not in an essentially "Yeah and what about this then" <glare> manner.

While I enjoy "no fucks left to give" Sansa, I agree she would have been more courteous and polite.  There's a reason polite and political have the same root, though I've never thought about that until just now, lol. 

But I blame the show for that, and the complete lack of care about these characters to drive their show to an ending.  If there had been more time and better writers/directors/producers, I think all of this would have gone down a little differently and more true to who these characters are.  But they wanted to set up opposition so they took every shortcut to get there while still finding time for the Hound to humiliate Sansa by reminding her that she was broken in rough so she could tell him rape builds character, and time for Tyrion to ask what Brienne's vagina looks like.  Fuck you, show!

Edited May 11, 2019 by izabella

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

Be fair, it wasn't just seriously and direct, it was with an edge. It was a challenge. It most certainly was not polite or respectful, and a continent away from friendly. If you truly believe otherwise, we're at an impasse and there's little left to debate.

Yes, it had an edge, it was not friendly. I wouldn't call it a challenge but it was absolutely a promise of personal resistance depending on Dany's answer. I think that can also be basically polite and respectful. She didn't insult her. She didn't pretend to like her either and go off to scheme in private.

Also I think izabella is right in that both characters are the victim of rushed writing here. The show wanted to set them up as opposed to each other so gave them a scene where they both just openly opposed each other instead of being more subtle and careful and giving things a chance to develop. Nobody's got time to really be playing the game of thrones now. It used to be chess, now it's speed chess and it shows.

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't understand the 'unable to stick up for themselves about something they feel strongly about' part. When does anyone start a negotiation from an antagonistic stance? How is that being politically savvy, let alone a good negotiator?

I don't think it's always considered politically unsavvy to state your ideal demands upfront. Dany's were already known. Being less direct doesn't seem less toxic to me. Sansa doesn't really have anything to negotiate with, does she? Besides her personal support? Which yes, she could have at least dangled in front of her more.

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

The British public poke fun at everyone, nobody is immune, however, do you honestly think 99% of people would do it directly to her face?? The only time in recent history that the monarchy acceded to the will of the people was after Princess Diana died. The lowered the flag at Buck Palace to half mast. That was an extremely rare exception, not the rule. 

Most people are never going to be in a conversation with her where it would come up, but I think headlines demanding "Show us you care" are about as blunt as "What about the North?" And again with her we're talking about someone who's been a part of peoples' lives for decades. There's a long history and relationship. The only thing the public has that it can take away is personal affection and support, really, and in the right situation I think anybody would take it even to her face.

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

And? I think we must be talking at odds here because my point is anyone who wants a royal favour would be wise to ask in a courteous, polite - let alone friendly - manner. Not in an essentially "Yeah and what about this then" <glare> manner. Again, they don't have to feel anything, they can feel what they like, but to express those feelings is not wise and will only serve to fan the flames of hostility. If anyone thinks that's the best way to get the thing you want when there's been no prior emnity forthcoming, then I'm uttery dumbfounded.

Margarey might have handled this situation far far better. Maybe she'd have made friends with Dany and ultimately been able to get her to freely give the North independence--but I don't think that would ever be possible.

The thing is, Sansa doesn't really have anything to negotiate with, does she? I don't remember the exact situation with Yara, but she was leader of the Iron Islands, right? Sansa doesn't control the North. All she really has to offer is her personal support and withholding it has gotten Dany's attention. It is something Dany wants even and hasn't figured out how to get even though she has the North. Her attitude hasn't simply backfired.

[Meredith Quill]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, it had an edge, it was not friendly. I wouldn't call it a challenge but it was absolutely a promise of personal resistance depending on Dany's answer. I think that can also be basically polite and respectful. She didn't insult her. She didn't pretend to like her either and go off to scheme in private.

Also I think izabella is right in that both characters are the victim of rushed writing here. The show wanted to set them up as opposed to each other so gave them a scene where they both just openly opposed each other instead of being more subtle and careful and giving things a chance to develop. Nobody's got time to really be playing the game of thrones now. It used to be chess, now it's speed chess and it shows.

You don't have to insult someone to be impolite. I think defiant is a good descriptor of it and of how you're describing it; still unwise. Absolutely agree on the writing 100%.

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's always considered politically unsavvy to state your ideal demands upfront. Dany's were already known. Being less direct doesn't seem less toxic to me. Sansa doesn't really have anything to negotiate with, does she? Besides her personal support? Which yes, she could have at least dangled in front of her more.

Again, not about stating your wants, it's how you state them. Note: It's interesting that you frame it as 'demands'. Demanding stuff of Princes from an unequal position is never a wise move.

As Jon's sister Sansa likely never needed to offer more than her support (esp on a personal level - desirable but not essential). Dany was already predisposed to want Jon's family to like her, what does that tell you? Given she had ceded The Iron Islands to Yara already at this point. Let's imagine the conversation went a little differently.

"Your Grace, thank you for postponing your plans and coming to help the North, it is much appreciated."

"Of course, you are most welcome."

"If we survive the coming battle, would it be possible have an audience with you to discuss your plans for the North once you depose Cersei."

"I don't see a problem with that. In what way exactly?"

"I'd like you to consider giving the North independence and I'll explain why it's so important to us at the time"

"I'm willing to listen and hear your reasoning"

Instead we got, "WHAT ABOUT THE NORTH" - ^Silence^.

smh.

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Most people are never going to be in a conversation with her where it would come up, but I think headlines demanding "Show us you care" are about as blunt as "What about the North?" And again with her we're talking about someone who's been a part of peoples' lives for decades. There's a long history and relationship. The only thing the public has that it can take away is personal affection and support, really, and in the right situation I think anybody would take it even to her face.

The nation was devastated. Feelings were exceptionally high. Not really comparable to a single person making curt demands to someone who has shown them no emnity.

[Drogo]

47 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Be fair, it wasn't just seriously and direct, it was with an edge. It was a challenge. It most certainly was not polite or respectful, and a continent away from friendly.

And extremely ill-timed... while she was just making headway to healing a new yet fractured relationship... with her hand literally still in Daenerys' hand... with the full support of Daenerys' most trusted adviser at the time.

Littlefinger, she's not.  Timing is everything. 

[Indi]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Yeppers.  I feel like Sansa's animosity is one of the few character beats the writers have gotten right.

Throughout Sansa's story, everyone she's been with, they make alliances/truces but NEVER stop working towards their own goal or empowerment.   If Sansa had been genuine and content saying "Winterfell is yours, You're grace."  I would have found that woefully out of character.

Agreed. However, I do think that Dany's passive approach to Sansa is very much out of character. I understand she's not as sure of herself as before, but come on! She has gone through worse and handled it well enough. She has manipulated and lied, so I don't know, why she's not using any tactics, to calm her frenemy down. Dumb Jon's influence.
 

3 hours ago, ursula said:

To reiterate @SilverStormm's point: That's a false equivalent.

You are not the heir to a monarchy, and part of a still existing feudal society. And if you/it were and the society had now turned democratic, then you've "lost your chance" so to speak to reclaim that heritage. None of which applies to Dany and Westeros.

To reiterate: I was explaining the natural rejection prospective subjects might have toward strangers, which happens every time, no matter what kind of society. I'm not denying Dany's legitimacy to the throne at all.

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But your citizenship should still allow you to run for political office. You will still have the right to claim or reclaim any lands or properties that your family owned before you left, as long as you have legal right (the natural heir or a Will stating you are one).  You might have to oust some settlers in court or by other means, but it would be perfectly in your right to and not considered an "invasion".

It depends on the country, but generally yes. But "coming home" with an army with the intention of conquering and ruling is an invasion. Even if she feels (and is) one of the rightful heirs to the throne, it doesn't mean people would have to like it or accept it, because she says so. 

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And frankly, this line of argument is offensive. 

Dany and Sansa are fictional characters. War refugees are not. Making the argument that someone who was driven out of their home to stay alive has thus forfeited the right to that home is unacceptable, hurtful and galling.

Seriously? At no point have I discussed real war refugees. You yourself are telling me Sansa and Dany are fictional characters, but then you accuse me of insulting real life refugees, because I don't accept a fictional foreign pretender to a fictional throne has to be accepted or supported, because they say so?

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Dany didn't leave Westeros by choice. She didn't get the chance to know or be known in Westeros when she spent her formative years hiding, begging, running, knowing that the fate of Aegon and Rhaenys awaited her. And of course, she has the right to want to return home and reclaim her family's home, fortune and seat of power. 

She has the right to want and try to do all that. She even could have done all that without any legitimacy to the throne. Isn't that how her ancestors got to the throne in the first place? By destroying the legitimate king and usurping the throne? What I'm saying is that she is delusional if she expected no resistance. 

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Only this  is exactly what Sansa Stark did to the Umbers and the Karstarks. The Umbers supported the legal Warden of the North (the Boltons) and the Karstarks "seceded" from Robb's War when he killed their Lord. But Sansa won Winterfell and threatened to drive them out of their homes for not kneeling to her. 

Okay, so? How is that a counterargument?
 

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By your argument, Sansa Stark insisting on reclaiming Winterfell and the Northern seat of power was delusional. It was an unpopular decision that the Northern lords received with "contempt and loathing". They didn't win the North with "hearts and minds". They won it with brute force. Jon and Sansa invaded the North with an army of foreigners (wildlings - fricking wildlings! - and Vale soliders) and one lone Northern army to attack the legitimate Warden of the North and his bannermen. And when they took power, they punished those who refused to "bend the knee" - even though - by your argument - the Umbers and the Karstarks hadn't broken any laws and had the right to not support an invading wannabe Lady of Winterfell.

But when the Starks do it, that's fine? 

OMG! 🤦‍♀️ I mean, I think people should entertain themselves beating strawmen all they want, but just to be clear: At no point have I said that what Dany is doing is wrong and when the Starks did it, it was fine.

[Indi]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Nope, clearly you misinterpreted what I said. My argument was about the manner in which it was asked, not what was asked. Manners & courtesy sometimes make all the difference when you're asking someone for something, whether it be a kingdom or a cup of coffee.

I've just watched that scene again and there is nothing impudent or disrespectful, when she was asking about the North, just deadly seriousness. Another matter of personal interpretation, I suppose. She WAS very impudent to Dany, right before, when she downright accused her of manipulating Jon. Sansa even made Dany sort of apologize for the way she introduced herself.

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That's a fallacy, it isn't an interpretation, mine is taking it at face value. If she meant 'Northerners' she never said that, she said 'us' as all four Starks stood there, alone, together. Again, Jon clarified her statement with "If you only trust who you grew up with you won't have many allies" <--- evidence he (and we) understood she was referring to the Starks. Arya replied - not correcting any misinterpretation, but in fact, confirming his understanding with "I don't need many allies". Case closed.

You are absolutely right.

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1. Not an invader, their King bent the knee. They're already her subjects whether they like it or not.
2. Basing mistrust on 'not being from here' IS being xenophobic, no matter the circumstances lol.

1. She can be both. That's a temporary and uneasy arrangement, because they all know they are actually following Jon. Eventually, when she wins the war (hopefully), it will be the time to confirm her real status.

2. No matter the circumstances, huh? *looks at colonized peoples around the world*

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Henry Tudor disagrees. It happened, it's historical fact.

Are you telling me he just arrived in England, there was absolutely no resistance to his claim and they just handed him the crown? Lucky him! Unfortunately, Dany cannot say the same.

Seriously though, Dany could be anyone with power, foreigner or not, of royal blood or quite not so royal, in the end, what counts is not her legitimacy. What counts is: get the throne, have enough support to keep it and reproduce, as the first Targerien king and Robert Baratheon prove.

[Drogo]

21 minutes ago, Indi said:

 there is nothing impudent or disrespectful, when she was asking about the North

Hard disagree.

She doesn't even wait for Daenerys to answer her original "WutabboutdaNorf" before making the down payment on a hill to die on and raving about how it was taken from them and they took it back and they'll never bow to anyone ever again, WUTABOUTDANORF!

This to the Queen. The one holding her hand spouting her love for Sansa's brother, her dedication to their cause- the Queen they need for the imminent battle against Death marching on Winterfell. 

Impudence aplenty.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Indi said:

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Only this  is exactly what Sansa Stark did to the Umbers and the Karstarks. The Umbers supported the legal Warden of the North (the Boltons) and the Karstarks "seceded" from Robb's War when he killed their Lord. But Sansa won Winterfell and threatened to drive them out of their homes for not kneeling to her. 

Okay, so? How is that a counterargument?

Sansa supported taking away Last Hearth and the Karhold from Ned and Alys, respectively... because their fathers refused to pledge fealty to her cause.  (Pretty rich, since Sansa didn't much like paying for her own father's "crimes" in KL. Ned Umber was probably named after Eddard.) Jon said "Bend the knee and keep your shit."

Sansa was fine with taking away the Umber+Karstark's castles but she sees no issues reneg'ing on the KitN's knee-bend to Daenerys and thinks an appropriate reward would be the entire North, independent to boot.

[GraceK]

Not to mention, she seems perfectly okay with Aegon Targaryen, formerly Jon Snow, being King of the Seven Kingdoms. Whose to say he’s gonna keep the North independent? Or that The North is gonna be okay with this turn of events? Sansa is banking on being able to control her cousin isn’t she?? It doesn’t occur to her that by playing Kingmaker and by pushing him on a  throne he doesn’t want, he may decide to marry Dany anyway and she’s doubly screwed? Who knows? Or worst case, if he decides to really push his claim he has to plunge the North into a civil war for another 10 years? All because she personally doesn’t like Daenerys? And she trusts a Lannister with this information, knowing it will go to Varys, two people she knows involved with the downfall of her family, even if Tyrion was nice to her. 

All to get rid of woman who saved Jon’s life 3 times and has done nothing to her. Except aid in saving the North of course.  She literally just helped try to get her killed. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by GraceK

[Meredith Quill]

5 hours ago, Indi said:

No matter the circumstances, huh? *looks at colonized peoples around the world*

I said based on being a foreigner alone. Your assertion here applies to those being ruled. We were discussing Arya's statement regarding her personally not trusting Dany (which she made clear was because 'she's not one of us', no other reason given), not the North or Westerosi feeling on the matter, to be clear.

5 hours ago, Indi said:

Are you telling me he just arrived in England, there was absolutely no resistance to his claim and they just handed him the crown? Lucky him! Unfortunately, Dany cannot say the same.

No, I'm telling you the exact opposite. I'm telling you despite the opposition he faced in England, once he defeated Richard they had to accept his rule whether they liked it or not. Same could be said of William the Conqueror and the Norman conquest and I can assure you wholeheartedly the anglo-saxons did not take kindly to it at all but they had to accept it anyway.

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

Not to mention, she seems perfectly okay with Aegon Targaryen, formerly Jon Snow, being King of the Seven Kingdoms. Whose to say he’s gonna keep the North independent? Or that The North is gonna be okay with this turn of events? Sansa is banking on being able to control her cousin isn’t she?? It doesn’t occur to her that by playing Kingmaker and by pushing him on a  throne he doesn’t want, he may decide to marry Dany anyway and she’s doubly screwed? Who knows? Or worst case, if he decides to really push his claim he has to plunge the North into a civil war for another 10 years? All because she personally doesn’t like Daenerys? And she trusts a Lannister with this information, knowing it will go to Varys, two people she knows involved with the downfall of her family, even if Tyrion was nice to her. 

All to get rid of woman who saved Jon’s life 3 times and has done nothing to her. Except aid in saving the North of course.  She literally just helped try to get her killed. 

Wanting Jon on the throne over Dany and trusting Tyrion to do what she expects makes sense to me, because better the devil you know then the one you do not. 

Sansa knows Jon and Tyrion, and at the very least can guess at their motivations, and what they will do, and how much rope they will give her. She knows little and less about Dany. 

It makes tons of sense that she'd rather have Jon on the throne deciding the fate of the North then Dany. It makes tons of sense that she thinks she can figure out what Tyrion would do if given the information that Jon has a better claim then Dany. 

Her animosity towards Dany is pretty ridiculous (I think she is prudent to distrust her, but should also be much more subtle about that distrust), but if that was explained somehow, the rest of it falls into place pretty easily. 

[GraceK]

I'm also not against Sansa spilling the secret, I actually think it's in character: her mother's family motto is "FAMILY, duty, honor", and honor has been the cause of her father's and brother's death, and she wants to be "smarter than them". Even Arya is not a big fan of it (S2). What I find annoying is the lack of motive: it would have made more sense if she said it after discovering Dany's intention of destroying KL, or if she felt Jon's life to be in danger. This way it only looked petty. The problem is that, it makes no sense with no characterization for all of them especially the book one and honestly… family, duty and honor means that you have to also stick to your duty and being honorable, and she didn’t do any of that because:

    • if Jon is family and he doesn’t want the throne and he asked her to swear not to tell anyone she betrayed his trust 

    •    if she recognizes jon as her king she’s directly contradicting his direct order which is hardly dutiful or honorable

    •    also if jon defers to dany and she recognizes that then she’s committing treason on a worse level

    •    (she also swore in front of a heart tree but we don’t talk about that)

    •    she’s also ignoring what jon wants and basically using him as a pawn because…… she doesn’t like Dany? that’s it? because she’s that concerned about northern independence when it makes no sense that she would be and it’s all show characterization at most?

like: this entire season, and I’m saying it as a person who loves the Starks, Sansa has read like she decided that Dany sucked the moment she walked into Winterfell because she thought Jon shouldn’t have kneeled when Jon said from the beginning that his main objective was taking the Others out and that he didn’t want the job. Dany has done nothing to make Sansa assume she had bad intentions or anything except saying that she wants all seven kingdoms, but, honestly, so what? is the north’s independence that important when Ned didn’t die for it, Robb didn’t want it and when, sorry to fucking say, Ned didn’t die like that for honor, Ned died like that FOR SANSA HERSELF?

like I’m not touching the ‘how robb died in the show’ topic because it wasn’t for honor, it was for the botched romeo and juliet show and don’t let me get started on that, but like…Ned only ever accepted Cersei’s terms because Varys went to him to tell Sansa had specifically pleaded for his life, he did it for her basically, he was going to go to the wall with another stain on the supposed extra precious honor of his because his daughter pleaded for his life and he loved her so much he was willing to do something that implied sacrificing his honor, and I have to think it’s a+ characterization that Sansa Stark thinks her father wasn’t smart enough?

like sorry but I can’t. This entire characterization doesn’t work, it has never worked, and makes Sansa look like an asshole because now it looks like she’s hating Dany just because , when she has zero reasons to and Dany has only stuck to her terms, and she has no reasons to think Jon is in danger since Danys supposedly in love with him, and like, no. Like the way the show put it seems like mean girls fighting in high school, too bad that Dany comes out being the sympathetic one and even other fans who really don’t even care much for Dany and love Sansa and who are always pro-stark are getting that message,  then it’s badly written. unless the point was to make everyone hope Dany just went and burned half of westeros out of existence, because at that point they’re honestly doing a great job of managing it.

[Advance35]

Quote

Margarey might have handled this situation far far better. Maybe she'd have made friends with Dany and ultimately been able to get her to freely give the North independence--but I don't think that would ever be possible.

The thing is, Sansa doesn't really have anything to negotiate with, does she? I don't remember the exact situation with Yara, but she was leader of the Iron Islands, right? Sansa doesn't control the North. All she really has to offer is her personal support and withholding it has gotten Dany's attention. It is something Dany wants even and hasn't figured out how to get even though she has the North. Her attitude hasn't simply backfired.

I don't think Dany will/would ever give up the North.   Sansa could have been demure, she still would have gotten "All Seven Kingdoms will be under the rule of their rightful Queen."  Sansa recognizes how little influence she now has, Dany is in charge, her lapdog Jon does whatever she says, so Sansa will publicly adhere to the strictly required protocol, but unlike Kings Landing, she's now going to allow the one she loathes to easily detect her loathing.

People say Sansa is power hungry, of course she is, Power equals protection.  For the first time in years, Sansa (as she saw it) wasn't at the mercy/whim of someone else.  Her life/land was in her own hands.  Now, that power/protection has been ripped away from her.

For the past few years, everything had to be "Yes your grace" "As you say your grace."  She escapes Kings Landing, survives her Aunt's murder attempt, lives through Ramsay Bolton and managed to gain some agency and control over her life and her ancestral seat.  Then she is told, she is dropped back down to that of a Courtier and her wants/goals/hopes are subject to the approval of Daenerys Targaryen?!?!?!?

I suspect this antagonism with Daenerys is, for Sansa, both a political battle and a DEEPLY personal one.  After Robert Baratheon, Sansa has hated everyone who's been on or controlled the Iron Throne.

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Her animosity towards Dany is pretty ridiculous (I think she is prudent to distrust her, but should also be much more subtle about that distrust), but if that was explained somehow, the rest of it falls into place pretty easily. 

This reddit post explains it pretty well I think.

[Indi]

6 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I said based on being a foreigner alone. Your assertion here applies to those being ruled. We were discussing Arya's statement regarding her personally not trusting Dany (which she made clear was because 'she's not one of us', no other reason given), not the North or Westerosi feeling on the matter, to be clear.

No, I'm telling you the exact opposite. I'm telling you despite the opposition he faced in England, once he defeated Richard they had to accept his rule whether they liked it or not. Same could be said of William the Conqueror and the Norman conquest and I can assure you wholeheartedly the anglo-saxons did not take kindly to it at all but they had to accept it anyway.

If Arya was talking about her not being a Stark (we agreed you were right about that), as the reason Dany isn't trustworthy in her opinion, then Dany's foreignness is irrelevant in this case.

Exactly! He became king, after he defeated Richard and was proclaimed the rightful ruler. He had enough support, to enforce it. That doesn't mean Dany will have it as easy if (or when!) she defeats Cersei, who is the only legitimate queen for now and seeing how there is a "better" alternative for some.

No matter how much I despise him, Sansa thinks Jon is both a sucker AND her best chance for an independent North. In her mind, it seems to be worth it, to risk a death sentence and I have to say, why not?

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

This reddit post explains it pretty well I think.

My eyes! 😭 No, I don't believe that. It's too late to introduce such a thing in the show. If anything, Sansa has been flirting and playfully giving heart eyes to Tyrion. 

[izabella]

18 minutes ago, Indi said:

If anything, Sansa has been flirting and playfully giving heart eyes to Tyrion. 

Ack, no!  I don't want Sansa to end up with a drunk twice her age whose loyalties have never been to the North, the only place Sansa feels at home.

[Indi]

3 hours ago, izabella said:

Ack, no!  I don't want Sansa to end up with a drunk twice her age whose loyalties have never been to the North, the only place Sansa feels at home.

Agreed!

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I don't think Dany will/would ever give up the North.   Sansa could have been demure, she still would have gotten "All Seven Kingdoms will be under the rule of their rightful Queen." 

Correction, six. Dany had already conceded absolute rule of the Iron Islands. Which, in itself makes this rationale immediately moot.

6 hours ago, Advance35 said:

People say Sansa is power hungry, of course she is, Power equals protection.  For the first time in years, Sansa (as she saw it) wasn't at the mercy/whim of someone else.  Her life/land was in her own hands.  Now, that power/protection has been ripped away from her.

For the past few years, everything had to be "Yes your grace" "As you say your grace."  She escapes Kings Landing, survives her Aunt's murder attempt, lives through Ramsay Bolton and managed to gain some agency and control over her life and her ancestral seat.  Then she is told, she is dropped back down to that of a Courtier and her wants/goals/hopes are subject to the approval of Daenerys Targaryen?!?!?!?

I suspect this antagonism with Daenerys is, for Sansa, both a political battle and a DEEPLY personal one.  After Robert Baratheon, Sansa has hated everyone who's been on or controlled the Iron Throne.

Here's the thing that never ceases to astonish me. All the reasoning here could equally be applied to Dany, yet it seldom is. Sansa wanting power = she wants to feel safe because she was treated badly over a few years. Yet Dany wanting power = greedy, self-important, power mad etc etc. However, if we were to compare who had the worse end of the stick, Dany was hunted, abused and downtrodden from birth practically; yet rarely is the same understanding of wanting to feel safe etc, visited upon her. I really don't understand it and can only assume it must come from a place of pure bias.

3 hours ago, Indi said:

If Arya was talking about her not being a Stark (we agreed you were right about that), as the reason Dany isn't trustworthy in her opinion, then Dany's foreignness is irrelevant in this case.

Couldn't agree more. I was simply responding to your prior comment in my previous post.

3 hours ago, Indi said:

Exactly! He became king, after he defeated Richard and was proclaimed the rightful ruler. He had enough support, to enforce it. That doesn't mean Dany will have it as easy if (or when!) she defeats Cersei, who is the only legitimate queen for now and seeing how there is a "better" alternative for some.

No matter how much I despise him, Sansa thinks Jon is both a sucker AND her best chance for an independent North. In her mind, it seems to be worth it, to risk a death sentence and I have to say, why not?

That wasn't the original matter we were discussing, it was whether she was right or wrong attempting to conquer and rule when she didn't grow up in Westeros. Here's a quote of your post to refresh your memory:

Quote

Dany grew up in an entire different continent and culture for most of her life. No one knows her in Westeros and she doesn't know Westeros. I was also born in a different country, than the one I've lived since I was 4. Now, if I thought I should conquer and rule over my country of birth and expect anything but resistance and loathing, I think people would be justified in calling me delusional. 

The Henry Tudor/William the Conqueror examples were to demonstrate that this precise situation has happened historically, regardless of any resistance or loathing  because they could be/were viewed as essentially 'foreign'. 'Right or wrong' is irrelevant and as you yourself now assert; 'might is right' is what matters.

Also, if Dany arrived expecting no resistance or loathing I didn't get that memo. However, if we're talking about Sansa, even then Dany wasn't expecting flowers and joy. As I recall, when Jon verbally 'bent the knee' the first thing Dany replied was "What about your people?" (subtext: you said they won't accept a southern ruler so what should I expect). Which shows she knew from his prior statements that it wouldn't be all flowers and music from the get go. I'm going to make my point once more then leave it at that, as I've made it repeatedly in this topic now; there's a world of varied responses/attitude between flowers & joy or thinly veiled contempt and barely concealed defiance, it isn't an either/or situation. I've never proposed the former and to my mind the latter was very unwise in that situation. The clever play lay somewhere in the - vast - middle ground regardless of inner feelings.

[Maximum Taco]

6 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

This reddit post explains it pretty well I think.

If Sansa is in love with Jon, yes it is explained pretty perfectly, and actually done with a good amount of subtlety which is a rarity for the show in these later seasons. I will say she does a lot of reassuring him he's her brother ("You're just as much Ned Stark's child as any of us") and that seems contrary to that conclusion. 

Jon also seems pretty squicked out by making out with Aunt Dany, would he be more ok with cousin Sansa? I know cousins are pretty widely accepted in book Westeros, for instance Tywin was married very happily to his cousin Joanna, and it's barely mentioned and never with any degree of shame attached. But Jon clearly sees the Starks as his siblings. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Indi]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

That wasn't the original matter we were discussing, it was whether she was right or wrong attempting to conquer and rule when she didn't grow up in Westeros. Here's a quote of your post to refresh your memory:

Thanks, but I know what I was talking about. Mainly that Dany was delusional if she thought that trying to invade (with the intention of ruling) a country would go without resistance.

I never said that Dany trying to get the IT was right or wrong. I was explaining, that her meeting with disapproval and resistance is perfectly normal, because people are territorial. Dany will try to get her throne and Sansa will try to get an independent North if she can.
 

Quote

The Henry Tudor/William the Conqueror examples were to demonstrate that this precise situation has happened historically, regardless of resistance or loathing  or whether they were essentially 'foreign'. 'Right or wrong' isn't the point, as you yourself now assert; 'might is right' is what counts.

Also, if Dany arrived expecting no resistance or loathing I didn't get that memo. However, if we're talking about Sansa, even then Dany wasn't expecting flowers and joy. As I recall, when Jon verbally 'bent the knee' the first thing Dany replied was "What about your people?" (subtext: you said they won't accept a southern ruler so what should I expect). Which shows she knew from his prior statements that it wouldn't be all flowers and music from the get go. I'm going to make my point once more then leave it at that, as I've made it repeatedly in this topic now; there's a world of varied responses/attitude between flowers & joy or thinly veiled contempt and barely concealed defiance, it isn't an either/or situation.

Again, at no point did I say say it was right or wrong (at least in this universe, because effectively, in real life, I don't condone imperialism). Dany should absolutely try to do, whatever she wants. It's the idea that everyone should follow suit or else... that makes me laugh. Maybe they will or they won't and suffer the consequences, but for now she has to get the throne she wants.

If Dany understands what's going on with Sansa and the Northerners, I'm happy for her, because that means she should be prepared. You see, if I was Dany, I would be happy that Sansa was showing her defiance so openly. Know your enemy and all that stuff.

[Meredith Quill]

14 minutes ago, Indi said:

Thanks, but I know what I was talking about. Mainly that Dany was delusional if she thought that trying to invade (with the intention of ruling) a country would go without resistance.

I never said that Dany trying to get the IT was right or wrong. I was explaining, that her meeting with disapproval and resistance is perfectly normal, because people are territorial. Dany will try to get her throne and Sansa will try to get an independent North if she can.

Good to know. Then it seems we were talking at cross purposes because I took your comments differently. As for Sansa trying to get an independent North, it's how she tries that I find irksome and shitty writing, not that she tries.

14 minutes ago, Indi said:

You see, if I was Dany, I would be happy that Sansa was showing her defiance so openly. Know your enemy and all that stuff.

For sure. From a strategic standpoint Sansa showing her hand so early and to someone who, as many have said in this very topic, she doesn't know - was unwise.

[Colorful Mess]

8 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Good to know. Then it seems we were talking at cross purposes because I took your comments differently. As for Sansa trying to get an independent North, it's how she tries that I find irksome and shitty writing, not that she tries.

Since every advisor except maybe Daario has coddled and tiptoed around Dany forever, I'm so glad it's not written like more of the same here. That's what all her advisors are doing and its tiring. They're all thinking what Sansa is saying because she has valid concerns. She's just not going to hide behind lies at this point. Interestingly. 

Dany is already paranoid about Sansa usurping her. She's racing to get the throne faster and making really detrimental mistakes because she's afraid of a coup. Everyone is afraid of her except Sansa and Varys. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Correction, six. Dany had already conceded absolute rule of the Iron Islands. Which, in itself makes this rationale immediately moot.

Maybe Dany forgot or reneged.  In the War Room strategy scene, when she was smugly reminding Sansa who is Queen, she said "All Seven Kingdoms."

Quote

Here's the thing that never ceases to astonish me. All the reasoning here could equally be applied to Dany, yet it seldom is. Sansa wanting power = she wants to feel safe because she was treated badly over a few years. Yet Dany wanting power = greedy, self-important, power mad etc etc. 

I don't think it's so astonishing.  It all depends on character preference.  There are plenty (all over this board) that think Sansa should sit down and shut up.  Speak when spoken too and mindlessly do as Dany and her sing-alongs dictate.

I disagree, because I'm a Sansa fan.  I also disagree that Sansa had it easy compared to Daenaerys.  I feel/felt Ramsay Bolton was a unique horror, others feel different.  I've even seen some express that Sansa deserved everything that happened to her.  All perception.

Quote

No matter how much I despise him, Sansa thinks Jon is both a sucker AND her best chance for an independent North. In her mind, it seems to be worth it, to risk a death sentence and I have to say, why not?

Agreed.  Her is a rube.  He didn't seem to realize anything was going on when Dany gave the Stormlands to Gendry.  Completely oblivious.  Yet he's the only martial presence she feels she can reasonably count on, though she may feel differently (and should) after Episode 4.

Quote

My eyes! 😭 No, I don't believe that. It's too late to introduce such a thing in the show. If anything, Sansa has been flirting and playfully giving heart eyes to Tyrion. 

I do think there are times Jon and Sansa exhibit inappropriate chemistry but I don't see the show going there.  As for Tyrion, while the chemistry is there, she doesn't seem to hold romance or love in high regard anymore.  They are more means of accumulating power.  The way Margaery manipulated Joffrey, The way Littlefinger manipulated Lysa, Littlefinger putting up with being treated like dirt by Sansa because he felt his version of love.

[Indi]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Since every advisor except maybe Daario has coddled and tiptoed around Dany forever, I'm so glad it's not written like more of the same here. That's what all her advisors are doing and its tiring. They're all thinking what Sansa is saying because she has valid concerns. She's just not going to hide behind lies at this point. Interestingly. 

Dany is already paranoid about Sansa usurping her. She's racing to get the throne faster and making really detrimental mistakes because she's afraid of a coup. Everyone is afraid of her except Sansa and Varys. 

I'm not sure Sansa and Varys are not afraid her, but I agree about the rest. I mean, Sansa is not in a position to usurp her, but she can hurt her claim to the throne.

Personally, I like that Sansa is so defiant, mainly because she serves as a counterpoint to all those, who keep tiptoeing around Dany. Their tête-à-tête was very interesting to me, because Sansa was so blunt and downright insulting, but for some reason, Dany could not or would not assert herself as a woman of superior standing. She coddled up to Sansa, came off as apologetic and tried to be "friends", which goes to show, how poorly she had read Sansa.

Also, because it's fun to watch Dumb Jon running to and fro between these women like a headless chicken.

[Maximum Taco]

24 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Maybe Dany forgot or reneged.  In the War Room strategy scene, when she was smugly reminding Sansa who is Queen, she said "All Seven Kingdoms."

It honestly seems like everyone has forgotten. 

When Theon comes to Winterfell he tells Dany that Yara has gone to reclaim the Iron Islands in Dany's name. That would assume that Yara is Queen in name only, but still owes fealty to the Iron Throne. Essentially the same offer that Renly gave to Robb. He could call himself whatever the hell he wants, but he still acknowledges the King of the Seven Kingdoms as his overlord. 

[merrick715]

32 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

 He didn't seem to realize anything was going on when Dany gave the Stormlands to Gendry.  Completely oblivious.

I know right. Does Jon think Dany is the Westerosi version of Oprah? You get a castle! You get a castle Everyone gets a castle. I get Dany wanting to secure the Stormlands, but did she ever think how the other powerful vassal houses in the Stormlands would react to Gendry' being their lord paramount. Gendry is a peasant, who most likely can't read and has never been to the Stormlands. That sounds like a recipe for creating a small rebellion in the Stormlands.

Edited May 12, 2019 by merrick715

[Colorful Mess]

1 minute ago, Indi said:

I'm not sure Sansa and Varys are not afraid her, but I agree about the rest. I mean, Sansa is not in a position to usurp her, but she can hurt her claim to the throne.

Personally, I like that Sansa is so defiant, mainly because she serves as a counterpoint to all those, who keep tiptoeing around Dany. Their tête-à-tête was very interesting to me, because Sansa was so blunt and downright insulting, but for some reason, Dany could not or would not assert herself as a woman of superior standing. She coddled up to Sansa, came off as apologetic and tried to be "friends", which goes to show, how poorly she had read Sansa.

Also, because it's fun to watch Dumb Jon running to and fro between these women like a headless chicken.

Oh, I just meant Sansa could potentially usurp her by putting Jon on the throne. I think that's really made Dany rush faster and that line about her enemies growing stronger had a double meaning.

Yeah, some of this reads as Cersei vs. Margaery with Jon as Tommen. But really, I despise the idea of dumb Jon and hope he shows some smarts soon. He is so poorly adapted from the books. 

I think Dany may need to find another profession if she can't handle lords and ladies bluntly telling her the truth. 

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I don't think Dany will/would ever give up the North.   Sansa could have been demure, she still would have gotten "All Seven Kingdoms will be under the rule of their rightful Queen."  Sansa recognizes how little influence she now has, Dany is in charge, her lapdog Jon does whatever she says, so Sansa will publicly adhere to the strictly required protocol, but unlike Kings Landing, she's now going to allow the one she loathes to easily detect her loathing.

Yes, the thing I see the idea in alternate scenes where Sansa was more polite and just said, "Maybe later we can talk about why the North should be independent and I'll tell you why" but it was always going to end with the exact same impasse. Jon was assuring Dany she was his queen and they could work together when she was begging him not to tell and eventually her response was pretty similar as it was to Sansa--I told you how it had to be, so that's how it has to be. Sansa could put off the cold war, but it was always going to end the same way.

And I agree that Dany is also wanting to rule from a similar impulse of safety. She's not just wanting the throne out of greed--and if she was that would just make her like any other player. Stannis, Cersei etc. There's just a difference in that Dany is wanting to rule 7 kingdoms and Sansa is wanting to keep her own kingdom independent.

She blatantly broke her vow to Jon and they didn't give us enough details to explain exactly how she got there, but one thing that makes sense to me--though it doesn't change the fact that she made a promise and then broke it--is that the vow isn't really about what Jon wants. He doesn't want to declare himself the heir and he doesn't want anyone trying to put him on the throne, but he does want to be open about who he is. Dany is the reason it was so important people swear never to tell.

[merrick715]

Tyrion's remark about Sansa and the Vale was interesting to me. How does she get that amount of power? Almost every time we see Lord Royce, he is with Sansa, and the two of them are talking, There seems to be mutual respect between them, and I'm wondering if that is because Sansa secretly agreed to marry Robert Arryn.

That marriage would be mutually beneficial for both Sansa and Royce. Sansa gets the support of the Vale, and in return, Royce provides Robert with a wife, who he knows is competent. It explains the Vale's presence in Winterfell, long after Petyr was killed.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, merrick715 said:

I know right. Does Jon think Dany is the Westerosi version of Oprah? You get a castle! You get a castle Everyone gets a castle. I get Dany wanting to secure the Stormlands, but did she ever think how the other powerful vassal houses in the Stormlands would react to Gendry' being their lord paramount. Gendry is a peasant, who most likely can't read and has never been to the Stormlands. That sounds like a recipe for creating a small rebellion in the Stormlands.

Even if it doesn't start a rebellion, the franchise has gone out of its way to prove that not all upjumped people do well in positions of power. 

Baelor the Blessed is soundly criticized for raising an illiterate stone mason and then a street urchin of 6 to the office of High Septon. 

But when Dany puts an illiterate blacksmith in charge of one of the seven biggest regions of her kingdom, she's soundly praised. Why? She barely knows Gendry, she doesn't know his temperament, she doesn't know how good he is at leading, she doesn't know anything beyond he's here and he's Robert's Bastard (of which there are many.)

Now maybe Gendry is going to be an exception. Davos was also illiterate when Stannis raised him to Knight of Cape Wrath and then Lord of the Rainwood and then Hand of the King. But the difference there is Davos afterward worked hard and actually tried to do the things required of a Hand of the King, he taught himself to read (with Shireen's help) and he educated himself on the needs of the Kingdom. Will Gendry do the same?

If George was writing this I suspect the next time we saw Storm's End, Gendry would be dead, and the Bastard of Nightsong would occupy the castle.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[merrick715]

33 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

But the difference there is Davos afterward worked hard and actually tried to do the things required of a Hand of the King, he taught himself to read (with Shireen's help) and he educated himself on the needs of the Kingdom. Will Gendry do the same?

I think Gendry has the potential to do a good job, but he is going to need a ton of help. I could see Davos acting as Gendry's advisor. Not only has Davos been in a similar situation as Gendry, he knows the Stormlands. Gendry has never set foot in them until Danny raised him up. I think that fact would cause the most resentment amongst the vassal houses.

Edited May 12, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

Quote

Tyrion's remark about Sansa and the Vale was interesting to me. How does she get that amount of power? Almost every time we see Lord Royce, he is with Sansa, and the two of them are talking, There seems to be mutual respect between them, and I'm wondering if that is because Sansa secretly agreed to marry Robert Arryn.

Since the writers haven't shown us, I choose to believe Lord Royce is where she has focused her "charm efforts."  This doesn't exclude her making an unofficial betrothal. Hee.

I don't doubt The Vale still has a notable sized military force and god knows Jon hasn't been catering to anyone other than Dany.

Quote

If George was writing this I suspect the next time we saw Storm's End, Gendry would be dead, and the Bastard of Nightsong would occupy the castle.

It's where I would put my Vegas money.

[Drogo]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Maybe Dany forgot or reneged.  In the War Room strategy scene, when she was smugly reminding Sansa who is Queen, she said "All Seven Kingdoms."

The deal with Yara was independence for the Iron Islands in exchange for their fleet, which was lost when Euron decimated them and took Yara (and the Dorne-trash) hostage - so it's possible the terms of the deal have changed a bit. Possible that it hasn't and Daenerys is just still counting the Iron Islands as one of her kingdoms. The Iron Islands have a King/Queen chosen by Kingsmoot and Dorne has Princes/Princesses (Prince Oberyn, Prince Trystan) but they're both part of the Seven Kingdoms. 

More importantly from the Dany/Yara negotiation scene, Daenerys straight up says she's agreeing because Yara asked nicely, Yara will support Daenerys' claim and her reign,  and follow her rules to break the wheel. (Basically, the Iron Islands would be like a son that's grown up and moved out but still has to listen to his parents if he wants their support. And the Iron Islands will need that inclusion and commerce with Westeros to survive since Yara agreed the Iromborn will stop paying The Iron Fucking Price from now on.) 

So as @SilverStormm wisely pointed out, it's not what Sansa's after but how she's going about it that's the issue for Daenerys (and many of us here.)

--

TYRION: What if everyone starts demanding their independence?
DAENERYS: She’s not demanding, she’s asking. The others are free to ask as well. Our fathers were evil men, all of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to leave the world better than we found it. You will support my claim as queen of the Seven Kingdoms and respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms. No more reaving, roving, raiding, or raping.
YARA: That’s our way of life.
DAENERYS: No more.
YARA: No more.

[Indi]

2 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Tyrion's remark about Sansa and the Vale was interesting to me. How does she get that amount of power? Almost every time we see Lord Royce, he is with Sansa, and the two of them are talking, There seems to be mutual respect between them, and I'm wondering if that is because Sansa secretly agreed to marry Robert Arryn.

That marriage would be mutually beneficial for both Sansa and Royce. Sansa gets the support of the Vale, and in return, Royce provides Robert with a wife, who he knows is competent. It explains the Vale's presence in Winterfell, long after Petyr was killed.

Interesting! How old is Robert now? I still have that mental image of him with his mother...

[Maximum Taco]

32 minutes ago, Indi said:

Interesting! How old is Robert now? I still have that mental image of him with his mother...

In the books Robert Arryn is 6 years younger than Sansa. While the show has changed everyone's ages, usually the gaps remain the same (except for characters they changed drastically like Missandei)

Assuming Sansa in the show is close to Sophie Turner's actual age, she would be around 23 and he would be around 17. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Indi]

46 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

In the books Robert Arryn is 6 years younger than Sansa. While the show has changed everyone's ages, usually the gaps remain the same (except for characters they changed drastically like Missandei)

Assuming Sansa in the show is close to Sophie Turner's actual age, she would be around 23 and he would be around 17. 

I am imagining the pairing and 🤣 I hope he managed to mature, after his mother died, though. He didn't seem like a bad sort, just awfully warped under his mother's influence. I am not going to pretend inbreeding is a good thing, but I suppose all the major houses are somewhat inbred, although not to Targ or Lannister levels.

I imagine Sansa would choose a pragmatic marriage and Robert makes as much sense as any other.

[Maximum Taco]

30 minutes ago, Indi said:

I am imagining the pairing and 🤣 I hope he managed to mature, after his mother died, though. He didn't seem like a bad sort, just awfully warped under his mother's influence. I am not going to pretend inbreeding is a good thing, but I suppose all the major houses are somewhat inbred, although not to Targ or Lannister levels.

I imagine Sansa would choose a pragmatic marriage and Robert makes as much sense as any other.

Cousins aren't actually as closely related to cause too many significant problems. Speaking genetically at least. I mean, if Jon is squicked out by Aunt Dany I can't imagine he'd want to hop into bed with his cousin who he thought was his sister for 20+ years. But based on Lysa's intention, I doubt Robert/Robin would have the same issue.  

Anyway genetically, Sansa, Arya and Bran for instance would share about 13% of their DNA with Jon Snow or Robert Arryn. 

Compare that to Jon and Dany who share over triple that at close to 44% (Yes, thanks to crazy Targ inbreeding Dany and Jon are genetically closer to siblings then they are to being Aunt/Nephew, so enjoy that squick) or Jaime and Cersei who share over 50% (Normally siblings would share exactly 50% but I believe it's higher for Cersei and Jaime since they themselves are also the children of 1st cousins Tywin and Joanna)

Edited May 12, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[screamin]

18 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

No, I'm telling you the exact opposite. I'm telling you despite the opposition he faced in England, once he defeated Richard they had to accept his rule whether they liked it or not. Same could be said of William the Conqueror and the Norman conquest and I can assure you wholeheartedly the anglo-saxons did not take kindly to it at all but they had to accept it anyway.

If I remember correctly from The Daughter of Time, once Henry took the throne from Richard, he methodically went about arresting, imprisoning and otherwise eliminating (the book called it 'murder') every person whose ancestry gave them a good claim to the throne that might have posed an eventual threat to his reign, regardless of whether they did anything to rebel or not. So Henry being an example of how once he wins the throne everyone 'had to accept his rule'? Even Henry didn't believe that. And it's a good reason why Sansa should be frightened for Jon's safety.

[Meredith Quill]

54 minutes ago, screamin said:

If I remember correctly from The Daughter of Time, once Henry took the throne from Richard, he methodically went about arresting, imprisoning and otherwise eliminating (the book called it 'murder') every person whose ancestry gave them a good claim to the throne that might have posed an eventual threat to his reign, regardless of whether they did anything to rebel or not. So Henry being an example of how once he wins the throne everyone 'had to accept his rule'? Even Henry didn't believe that. And it's a good reason why Sansa should be frightened for Jon's safety.

No, Henry is an example of it not mattering whether a would-be monarch grew up/spent most of his life in the country he conquers or not, regardless of the varied thoughts of that country's population. That is to say, there was little to zero contemplation in his mind of whether it was morally right for him to do so, they usually were convinced it was their right though. Moreover, he did it because he could; might is right. Same as William the Conqueror, whose changes after the conquest were even more savage and far reaching than Henry's in fact. And yes, people had to accept it right or wrong... or they rebelled and had their rebellion soundly put down.

We disagree about Sansa's motives, if she's frightened for Jon imo it's only because it would impact her own position, not out of some altruistic fear for Jon's personal longevity. She has her own agenda and she is serving it. I doubt she cared a fig about his well-being when he was at Castle Black and now she cares only because his death possibly could/would negatively affect her status. 

[Umbelina]

Oh I think Sansa is definitely frightened for Jon.  She says that thing about all of the men in her family dying whenever the head south, and they have obviously bonded.

The fact that Jon being alive is also better for her safety doesn't negate that she is worried for him.  He's shown endless naivete, she doesn't trust Dany at all, and someone with more experience needed to be aware of his true self, ESPECIALLY since he'd already told Dany. 

Sansa knows that Dany will do anything for that throne, she knows what she's already done.  Dany would never let the "true heir" threaten that, love or not.

[Meredith Quill]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I think Sansa is definitely frightened for Jon.  She says that thing about all of the men in her family dying whenever the head south, and they have obviously bonded.

The fact that Jon being alive is also better for her safety doesn't negate that she is worried for him.  He's shown endless naivete, she doesn't trust Dany at all, and someone with more experience needed to be aware of his true self, ESPECIALLY since he'd already told Dany. 

Sansa knows that Dany will do anything for that throne, she knows what she's already done.  Dany would never let the "true heir" threaten that, love or not.

I'm convinced she's frightened but for her own agenda, which is better served if Jon is alive and on the throne. Jon is like a golf ball; the ball is incidental through the swing but one hopes the swing was good and it'll land in the right place lol.

I don't 100% buy they've truly bonded, I believe there is some familial love there but that is secondary when it comes to Jon, Sansa's goals are the priority. 

Out of interest, what are you referring to with "She knows what she's already done"?

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I'm convinced she's frightened but for her own agenda, which is better served if Jon is alive and on the throne. Jon is like a golf ball; the ball is incidental through the swing but one hopes the swing was good and it'll land in the right place lol.

I don't 100% buy they've truly bonded, I believe there is some familial love there but that is secondary when it comes to Jon, Sansa's goals are the priority. 

Out of interest, what are you referring to with "She knows what she's already done"?

I know you don't think Sansa cares about Jon, or has bonded with him, but I do.  When they talked about the BoB and she apologized and he admitted he should have listened to her and that she saved his ass and Winterfell, for example.  Also when she called him her brother.  That was huge because in the beginning she was so much like her mother and didn't accept Jon, looked down on him as a "bastard."  I think her fear about him dying was quite real, and sadly and worriedly expressed.  I DO think that is why she told Tyrion, Jon is besotted and not thinking clearly.

Dany and her many titles is what I mean.  Girl has a history!  😉  She didn't get there handing out cotton candy and wine.  Sansa knows what power costs.  Her entire journey has been about learning about power, the costs, the methods, the horrors, all of it.