S02.E10: Cold Harbor

[aghst]

Well they might not have a lot of security personnel inside the building but apparently they have very loyal goons like Drummond and true believers like Milchick -- in his case, at least for the time being.

They put resources into the goat dept. and Burt's old group and the marching band.

Who knows, maybe the company is past its peak.  You look at Harmony's home town and that plant is not producing any more, so where is Lumon making its money now?

They may dominate that particular town or region but that doesn't mean it's some global behemoth any more.

Lumon has killed people, like that list Irv made and  we see that they  kidnapped Gemma, faked her death and made her a lab animal.  We don't know if Gemma volunteered for severance, maybe under false pretenses, or if they just forced a very invasive procedure on her.

So while they may not have many visible goons or henchmen, they're certainly capable of hurting people.

Maybe they'll hire some more security, not just for inside the building but to "get" those    opposing their interests, after what happened in this episode.

[KarenX]

21 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

So macro data refining is basically magic? Other people pulling numbers based on vibes somehow has an effect on Gemma? I know the show isn't exactly hard science fiction but this broke my suspension of disbelief into a million pieces.

Jame Eagen is basically Willie Wonka and Lumon is the Chocolate Factory, yes.

[Jack Shaftoe]

11 minutes ago, aghst said:

So while they may not have many visible goons or henchmen, they're certainly capable of hurting people.

In theory, yes. In practice we see stuff like Irv almost killing the company owner's daughter and merely getting fired rather than murdered. Mark is supposedly super important but nobody bothers tracking his movements or at least bugging his phone. The MDR team has rebelled repeatedly and yet the people who are supposed to keep them in check are always flabbergasted by this happening.

The actors playing Burt and Milchik are great at exuding menace when need be but Lumon as a whole is too inept at actually doing anything particularly menacing on screen. Weird in a creepy way? You bet. Menacing to the extent that you start fearing for the protagonists' safety? Not so much.

[BfrankT]

On 3/20/2025 at 10:50 PM, Penman61 said:

1970s paranoid thriller

complete with the Saul Bass style credits (see Pink Panther)

[arc]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

So macro data refining is basically magic? Other people pulling numbers based on vibes somehow has an effect on Gemma? I know the show isn't exactly hard science fiction but this broke my suspension of disbelief into a million pieces.

We’ve had to buy since the pilot that the computers’ 80’s-looking interface somehow conveys emotions in the numbers, emotions that the refiners can feel,

(and that the computers know which bin is the wrong bin to sort a bunch of numbers into, which implies the computers have all the information to do the sorting themselves without human intervention.)

[seank941]

9 hours ago, arc said:

We’ve had to buy since the pilot that the computers’ 80’s-looking interface somehow conveys emotions in the numbers, emotions that the refiners can feel,

(and that the computers know which bin is the wrong bin to sort a bunch of numbers into, which implies the computers have all the information to do the sorting themselves without human intervention.)

I can accept this because I have to to enjoy the show. What's much more difficult for me to believe is that Mark knows Gemma well enough to build 25 new personalities. I don't doubt that he knows her well, but knowing anyone that well is almost impossible. 

I wonder who Gemma would be if she entered the birthing cabin?

[AstridM]

14 hours ago, JKL845 said:

I disagree that Mark and Gemma's marriage was ending. He was so distraught by her "death" that he had to sever in order to function. The whole reason they "killed" Gemma was to get Mark to sever. Even two years later his outie life is a mess without Gemma. When they finally reunited they were completely enamored with each other. 

Innie Mark and Helly are in their infancy. They don't even know themselves at this point. Their entire lives are extremely limited to their jobs and they don't even know what their job is. 

Fully agree. I’m inclined to think those who are so sure Mark and Gemma’s relationship was over haven’t been a part of many long term relationships. It’s mind boggling to me. 

[Affogato]

On 3/21/2025 at 1:31 PM, ombre said:

 

More to the point, man, the marching band was such an excellent way to raise the most important questions of violence long before any punches were thrown. 

As to the questions of why Lumon *has* a marching band?  Well, we know they do everything in house.  This seems to imply that they do enough pomp and circumstance stuff to have regular use for a band.  That they really get off on patting themselves on the back.  That they love a display of force.  That they are deeply prone to utter hubris.  And yes, we did already know that, but hey, as Chekov definitely meant to write: if you're working in a universe where the megacorp obviously is so pompous and hubristic as to have a marching band, wouldn't you want to get to fire that sucker off?

I originally hail from the midwestern US and I spent a few years in more than one marching band. Marching bands and their music bring me joy, and although I understand there is a relationship to the military, I don’t think of them as associated with violence. I think of them more as a celebration of the better parts of being involved in something that is larger than yourself, something that can only be experienced on a group level. I think when Lumon takes their show on the road, and that is what they are gearing up to do, there will be parades, dammit, and a sense of belonging! Yes, I am saying that this aspect can and is used to manipulate people. 

If I was severed, C and M sounds like a good group to join. Music, exercise, and the muscle memory may carry over to the benefit of both halves of the personality.  I think next season we will see the kitchens, or at least the severed will look for them.

Since we found out about Cobel and that Miss Huang was a newer version of Cobel, raised in the faith, Mitchick is the character we know the least about. How did he come to Lumon? He is determined to succeed in the company, even though he is encountering belittlement and prejudice and aggression from all sides. We don’t know why, yet, and we don’t know how much choice he has.

Dylan’s outie came through for him, and gave him a choice. That is so impressive. Mark’s outie didn’t offer that, and Helly’s outie didn’t offer that, and Irving’s outie wasn’t given one. Gol, Dylan’s outie!

I think the innies are like the inner children of the outies, and I’m not sure they are the same people, because we are the results of our experiences and how we react to them. The innies are making different decisions than the outies did. Anyway, they are conscious and think of themselves as whole people, and what else makes us whole people. Well, may be babbling, here. There is a deeper philosophical truth lingering under this hard chocolate coating.

I think we have seriously moved into Scientology territory here, with an international business/church. Gemma was put through levels of auditing, starting with dentistry and concluding with what we assume was her greatest trial in life, and as she was cleared of these emotions, she could move on. I assume the plan was to present her as some equivalent of a clear individual and people, for large sums of money, could pay to be cleared of their fear of flying/dentists/social anxieties. the thing is, the clearing consists of making innies who are always trapped in these nightmares.I also assume that when they become public the things like goat sacrifice, melon and egg parties, and the marching bands will all go public. 

2 hours ago, seank941 said:

I can accept this because I have to to enjoy the show. What's much more difficult for me to believe is that Mark knows Gemma well enough to build 25 new personalities. I don't doubt that he knows her well, but knowing anyone that well is almost impossible. 

I wonder who Gemma would be if she entered the birthing cabin?

I think Miss Casey. She is the innie of Gemma who is open ended.

 Mark isn’t building new personalities, so much as eliminating aspects of her personality. In the individual rooms she feels fear, for example, and he sees fear and sorts the fear into the bin. He may be more sensitive to the fear because he knew the person who is afraid, but she is the one feeling it. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

Fully agree. I’m inclined to think those who are so sure Mark and Gemma’s relationship was over haven’t been a part of many long term relationships. It’s mind boggling to me. 

Okay, you have company. A lot of people are treating this like a great romance. On the other hand it has been two years since this happened, we still don’t know how Gemma came to be a Lumon test subject, and both have almost certainly changed a.lot. Innie Mark is fighting to live in a way that Outie Mark hasn’t. We will see. Honestly I don’t know. 

Edited March 23 by Affogato

[maddie965]

I guess my question is: will we ever find out? I hope they give oMark and Gemma a chance to try again. I really do.

But how can Lumon let Mark live after all he did - killing one of the leaders of the company, rescuing Gemma and basically destroying everything they have tried to achieve for years?

I saw a theory on another forum that I like. Maybe the father will really trade Helena for Hely R. And that will give her leverage to demand they keep Mark alive. But then she would be in the outside world and he would still be an innie, so how can that work? No idea, really.

Another question: do you think Mark S. had the right to turn his back to Gemma and deny oMark his chance of happiness? Or was he being a selfish bastard?

Edited March 23 by maddie965

[Affogato]

17 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

I guess my question is: will we ever find out? I hope they give oMark and Gemma a chance to try again. I really do.

But how can Lumon let Mark live after all he did - killing one of the leaders of the company, rescuing Gemma and basically destroying everything they have tried to achieve for years?

I saw a theory on another forum that I like. Maybe the father will really trade Helena for Hely R. And that will give her leverage to demand they keep Mark alive. But then she would be in the outside world and he would still be an innie, so how can that work? No idea, really.

Another question: do you think Mark S. had the right to turn his back to Gemma and deny oMark his chance of happiness? Or was he being a selfish bastard?

The outies decided to sell their innies i to servitude. In my belief there is moral responsibility. Mark Scout is not walking the high road, nor is Helena Eagan. I Mark is perfectly justified in turning his back on oMark. The only thing he knows about omark, really, is a few flashes and the contents of that two way conversation. He risked a lot to get Gemma to the outie world. What more could be asked of him? 
 

i also think we have seen Helly and Mark develop a relationship, over time. Not chopped liver. 
 

 As I said earlier, go outie Dylan for allowing his innie to have a choice. 
 

We know the innies can exist in the outie world. It is a switch, a protocol. 

Edited March 23 by Affogato

[Affogato]

On 3/20/2025 at 11:32 PM, Penman61 said:

^Agree.

Superbly directed, viscerally and narratively (mostly) satisfying...up until Mark's final decision.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts, and I see how the writers set Mark's choice up, but choosing Helly and them staying inside struck me as obviously trying to prolong the show into another season...choosing Gemma would have been like a series finale choice.

I honestly don’t think this is a love story. I mean, there are elements of a love story. But mark choosing one or the other isn’t the main tension in the story. Suppose both Gemma and Helly are killed. Ot removed from the board in another way. All the other questions remain. 

Edited March 23 by Affogato

[maddie965]

Totally agree. Best parts of the episode? Mark talking to himself and Dylan talking to himself. The existential, philosophical and ethical questions surrounding the characters are what make the show fascinating for me. Although I do love Gemma...

[ombre]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

On 3/21/2025 at 1:31 PM, ombre said:

Expand  

I originally hail from the midwestern US and I spent a few years in more than one marching band. Marching bands and their music bring me joy, and although I understand there is a relationship to the military, I don’t think of them as associated with violence. I think of them more as a celebration of the better parts of being involved in something that is larger than yourself, something that can only be experienced on a group level. I think when Lumon takes their show on the road, and that is what they are gearing up to do, there will be parades, dammit, and a sense of belonging! Yes, I am saying that this aspect can and is used to manipulate people. 

If I was severed, C and M sounds like a good group to join. Music, exercise, and the muscle memory may carry over to the benefit of both halves of the personality.  I think next season we will see the kitchens, or at least the severed will look for them.

Since we found out about

My comment about the marching band being an army stems from a very specific moment - Milchick thinking this big mass of people will be on his side (hey, he was just dancing with them!) and then seeing helly rally them away from his control. He thought he had a mass of people big enough to overpower those pesky mdrers, but she persuaded them away from his power. He thought they were automatons, she thought they were people. They sided with the person who thought they were people. He thought he had a little private army just for that moment. He was very, very wrong. (I will say, the characters I am most curious about for next season are Irving and Milchick. They have so thoroughly degraded Milchick in this season. I've got to think that this is rock bottom. Where does he go from here?) 

Anyway, while the band was theoretically only part of the story to provide *jazz hands* pizzazz, the specific nature of the movements of marching bands (military background, etc) meant that they foreshadowed the extreme violence of the rest of the episode. Which is also part of why they could keep seamlessly cutting back and forth between the band and the actual violence. It's like how the waves crashing in the Cobel episode at first seem like just atmosphere and then (when they overlay her moans on top of the images) become a way of showing the earthshaking, absolute grief and chaos in her soul. This is a show that likes to get at big ideas by presenting things that give a similar feel. 

But also, and specifically... Through this show, we have been relatively small groups of people. If you're thinking in a "can i/we take them" kind of way (as we see Dylan do through season one), the numbers are, generally, pretty even. It's one of the reasons the goat people scene was so wooooaaaaaahhhhh... That was a *lot* of people - they could totally surround mark and helly - and they were presented, at first, as a threat. But we haven't seen them since. This was even more people. We're starting to see so many people down there that there's no way that our heros (mdr team) could ever take them on (if dylan's fantasies were to play out). But while it seems that each of these larger groups are a threat, time and time again it turns out that they are amenable to working with the mdr folks. And if that's the case, then Lumon has a real problem on its hands. 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I study slavery. It's one of my "to a hammer, everything is a nail" lenses. If something gets to be roughly similar to topics that come up in studying slavery, my brain starts to read them through that lens. And the introduction of *so* many people hit that switch, for this reason: Slavery is very, very different in different places. I the mid-atlantic of the US, where farms were relatively small and freedom was a short flight away, Slavery was highly negotiated. In, say, the west indies, where plantations were *gargantuan* and slaves hugely outnumbered owners/overseers the system encouraged the most shockingly, inventively horrific tortures you will ever see. Within Lumon, we were shown a world similar to mid-atlantic slavery (small numbers of innies per outie supervisor). Adding the numbers seen in the marching band potentially makes the dynamics very, very different. We will see what comes!

One last quick thought about the band. My life has included both deeper music studies than *aaaanyone* needs and a couple decades of training in a combat sport. As I watched that scene, I kept thinking about the original purpose of combat instruments - 1) keeping your side together and 2) making such an unholy wall of sound that you induce physiological fight/flight/freeze in your opponents. As I watched, I just kept thinking about the physical sensations of being in an interior space with that many instruments, how thoroughly it would make your chest vibrate, your ears ring, your ability to think shut down. And then I kept thinking of how amazing it would have been to throw an opponent into a situation like that. One of the essential skills in my sport was the ability to create and exploit milliseconds when my opponent lost their concentration. The moment when the marching band came in would have been that moment to the nth degree. 

Edited March 23 by ombre

[KarenX]

21 hours ago, AstridM said:

IDK, Adam Scott is over 50 and Brit Lower is almost 40, so I don’t know that I necessarily see a pregnancy storyline coming up. Could be, but who knows. 

Are the characters that age? I’m not rooting for a pregnancy story but I won’t be surprised if we get one. Two unprotected sex sessions plus a line about how Mark has a new baby plus the season 1 news story in the background about a severed woman who got pregnant… it’s an open question for the show to answer for sure.

Chekov’s gun etc

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, ombre said:

My comment about the marching band being an army stems from a very specific moment - Milchick thinking this big mass of people will be on his side (hey, he was just dancing with them!) and then seeing helly rally them away from his control. He thought he had a mass of people big enough to overpower those pesky mdrers, but she persuaded them away from his power. He thought they were automatons, she thought they were people. They sided with the person who thought they were people. He thought he had a little private army just for that moment. He was very, very wrong. (I will say, the characters I am most curious about for next season are Irving and Milchick. They have so thoroughly degraded Milchick in this season. I've got to think that this is rock bottom. Where does he go from here?) 

Anyway, while the band was theoretically only part of the story to provide *jazz hands* pizzazz, the specific nature of the movements of marching bands (military background, etc) meant that they foreshadowed the extreme violence of the rest of the episode. Which is also part of why they could keep seamlessly cutting back and forth between the band and the actual violence. It's like how the waves crashing in the Cobel episode at first seem like just atmosphere and then (when they overlay her moans on top of the images) become a way of showing the earthshaking, absolute grief and chaos in her soul. This is a show that likes to get at big ideas by presenting things that give a similar feel. 

But also, and specifically... Through this show, we have been relatively small groups of people. If you're thinking in a "can i/we take them" kind of way (as we see Dylan do through season one), the numbers are, generally, pretty even. It's one of the reasons the goat people scene was so wooooaaaaaahhhhh... That was a *lot* of people - they could totally surround mark and helly - and they were presented, at first, as a threat. But we haven't seen them since. This was even more people. We're starting to see so many people down there that there's no way that our heros (mdr team) could ever take them on (if dylan's fantasies were to play out). But while it seems that each of these larger groups are a threat, time and time again it turns out that they are amenable to working with the mdr folks. And if that's the case, then Lumon has a real problem on its hands. 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I study slavery. It's one of my "to a hammer, everything is a nail" lenses. If something gets to be roughly similar to topics that come up in studying slavery, my brain starts to read them through that lens. And the introduction of *so* many people hit that switch, for this reason: Slavery is very, very different in different places. I the mid-atlantic of the US, where farms were relatively small and freedom was a short flight away, Slavery was highly negotiated. In, say, the west indies, where plantations were *gargantuan* and slaves hugely outnumbered owners/overseers the system encouraged the most shockingly, inventively horrific tortures you will ever see. Within Lumon, we were shown a world similar to mid-atlantic slavery (small numbers of innies per outie supervisor). Adding the numbers seen in the marching band potentially makes the dynamics very, very different. We will see what comes!

We did start out with just our four people and it seemed as if it was a small experiment in Severance. Maybe what they were doing wasn’t really meaningful, but eventually Lumon could sell this as a revolution in workspace technology.  Having it be something Cobel invented makes sense in this context, as does her running the severed floor.

Now we know that MDR was part of a significant experiment with larger implications. I don’t think we know how widespread the technology is, or if it is being used all over the world. I keep on thinking about the pictures we saw of the coups and I think that perhaps  this has happened before.  They are trying to learn how to make the innies happy, so it won’t happen again, but it has happened again. It is possible the Severance technology is part of an ongoing attempt to make the workers more biddable, not the original thing itself (they had the huff, afterall), and part of a long line of controlling techniques. We may, indeed, find that at one point the Eagans were slaveholders.

I’m still betting on something like scientology, a multinational technology or medical research company with religious aspirations.

 

[Affogato]

37 minutes ago, KarenX said:

Are the characters that age? I’m not rooting for a pregnancy story but I won’t be surprised if we get one. Two unprotected sex sessions plus a line about how Mark has a new baby plus the season 1 news story in the background about a severed woman who got pregnant… it’s an open question for the show to answer for sure.

Chekov’s gun etc

I think the line about Mark having a new baby was just the doctor being mean. It is possible, but it would take up a big part of the ongoing story real estate, and I’m not sure I’m seeing they have the space for it. We have a lot of characters to cover and I, for one, want more Irving/Burt and Fields.

The mean doctor having impregnated Gemma would be on my bingo card, though, at least on an auxilary, side bingo card. 

[Enigma X]

I am in the camp of not knowing whether oMark and Gemma's marriage is over, but for me, that is irrelevant because iMark's feelings for Helly R. are stronger than they are for Gemma. And I understand why that would be.

I find this interesting because, since I was 14 (and I am now 50), I have thought about whether a system with Dissociative Identity Disorder or someone with long-term amnesia is the "same" person. This was something I considered when it was discovered in my family that a family member had (and still has) DID. I am placing "same" in quotes because I know the body is the same, but in short conversations over the years with the system (as they choose to be called) in my family, that answer is not as clean-cut as many believe.

Anyway, I do not want to veer too far into things I am not anywhere near an expert on, but themes in this show since the first episode have intrigued me, particularly surrounding one's sense of self. I have not read all the responses here, but I am sure many have mentioned thoughts along these lines.

[Affogato]

7 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I am in the camp of not knowing whether oMark and Gemma's marriage is over, but for me, that is irrelevant because iMark's feelings for Helly R. are stronger than they are for Gemma. And I understand why that would be.

I find this interesting because, since I was 14 (and I am now 50), I have thought about whether a system with Dissociative Identity Disorder or someone with long-term amnesia is the "same" person. This was something I considered when it was discovered in my family that a family member had (and still has) DID. I am placing "same" in quotes because I know the body is the same, but in short conversations over the years with the system (as they choose to be called) in my family, that answer is not as clean-cut as many believe.

Anyway, I do not want to veer too far into things I am not anywhere near an expert on, but themes in this show since the first episode have intrigued me, particularly surrounding one's sense of self. I have not read all the responses here, but I am sure many have mentioned thoughts along these lines.

I think people with trauma, like Mark and Helena do disassociate and perhaps do not mature as people because of it, or lose that fire they started out with as children. I don’t mean the full blown disorder, I mean just numb out and go to work every day and then come home and drink in front of the television, go to bed, and then repeat. The life is not engating and the work is not engaging. 

[seank941]

1 hour ago, KarenX said:

Are the characters that age? I’m not rooting for a pregnancy story but I won’t be surprised if we get one. Two unprotected sex sessions plus a line about how Mark has a new baby plus the season 1 news story in the background about a severed woman who got pregnant… it’s an open question for the show to answer for sure.

Chekov’s gun etc

According to the conversation at the cabin, Mark is around 40. Innie Mark says that Outie Mark is 20x older, and he is 2. I don't know how old Helena is, I hope we learn more about her before she gets replaced by Helly. 

I'm on the fence about a baby storyline, but it could be another way to convince Helena or Helly to reintegrate. They can't live at Lumon forever, and if they choose to take the place of their outies they become just as unsympathetic. 

[Kirbyrun]

On 3/21/2025 at 8:31 PM, arc said:

outie Mark would normally have no way of knowing his innie had a romantic relationship

I can't go back and check right now, but I'm 99% sure that early in the season, Milchick told outie Mark that his innie had found love, or words to that effect.

[JenE4]

On 3/1/2025 at 5:21 PM, JenE4 said:

I forgot to click the + while reading, but in response to whether Gemma was kidnapped by Lumen… I think she willingly signed up for it. She was obviously targeted by Lumen because of her tragic loss of at least one pregnancy and/or failed IVF (“third time’s a charm”). Lumen sent her the little puzzles in the mail that she thought were fun, testing whether she would be a good candidate for the experiment. Seems to me they convinced her what if we could take away the pain you feel over not being able to have a child by doing these fun little puzzles? Before trying to escape, she asked the doctor, “And then I’ll see Mark?” Granted, it seems like they perhaps kept her prisoner afterwards but she also didn’t seem too distraught and was compliant up until that point (“How many rooms today?”). She might have been saying goodbye to Mark for a little bit, not necessarily knowing this experiment would take 2 years! Though, it’s obviously a success by any measure, and the doctor is just holding onto her as long as he can because he’s fallen in love with her, putting himself in the role of the husband in the dystopian Christmas scene. Interesting that Gemma has several innies. Cold Harbor is a new door to her, and yet it’s the file that Mark has been working on. It’s the project that all on the Severed floor are watching. They brought back Mark’s coworkers so Mark would finish Cold Harbor. And it also seems to be the final experiment for Gemma that once she enters the Cold Harbor room and completes her cycle there, the doctor will have to let her go. Since the Cold Harbor room is almost ready AND Mark is 96% done with the Cold Harbor file, it seems pretty likely that refining the data is creating these experiential rooms. Gemma has made it through nonstop dental work, thank you notes from hell, and even a plane crash without remembering. What’s the absolute worst thing she could experience? Losing another child. Who’s the one person who knows exactly what Gemma’s emotions would be in that moment? Mark. I think Mark is basically reconstructing the experience of Gemma losing their child. They’ll put her through it, and if that doesn’t spark a memory or reintegration within the innie, well, then that’s some damn good quality control and there’s nothing that’s going to break it out in the real world.

I’m quoting myself from episode 7 because I’m shocked that I actually figured out the purpose of Cold Harbor/MDR. But even though the big mystery reveal wasn’t a surprise to me, I was definitely on the edge of my seat for all the rest of it. It was interesting seeing Mark arguing with himself. And I loved everything with Seth Milchick—from sprinting out of the room after giving Dylan his outie’s response, to his awkward roast with animatronic Keir (even Keir notes his use of big words), to leading the marching band like nobody’s business. I liked how they were able to ratchet up the anxiety with the loud marching band with Helly trying to keep Milchick captive and cutting back and forth to Mark’s rescue mission. Loved the shock of InnieMark holding Drummond hostage and then accidentally shooting him with the bolt gun when his consciousness dipped, and the shock on his face when OutieMark came to. I think season 3 was just approved, so they seemingly created this wherein it could be a natural series finale or we could see where it goes after that. I’m really happy they did that. Obviously I want more! But so many shows don’t get picked up again and just end with a cliffhanger that you have no idea what the resolution/purpose was supposed to be. I would be okay with the idea here that Gemma is rescued and everyone lived happily ever after, Mark going between his “work wife” and home wife, hand waving the reintegration doesn’t fully take. Of course, with a whole new season on the horizon, it won’t be that simple—and that’s exciting, too.

[peachmangosteen]

I'm seeing on reddit that there seems to be a lot of fervor over Innie Mark going with Helly over Gemma. I didn't have much of a problem with that but I did have a problem with Helly's reaction to it. The smile she shot Gemma was giving cruel. Very Helena like but I'm not really sure what the writing/directing was intending with it.

I always go back and forth on whether I like this show tbh. It took me over a year to finish season 1 because I kept being like "I don't think I like this" and stopping and then I'd see someone mention how good it was so I'd try again multiple times until I did indeed finish it. Even this season, I watched through episode 5 and was like "Do I care?" and decided no but then friends were raving about the finale so I ended up watching the last 5 eps the past 2 days. And I'm still not sure how I feel.

Edited March 23 by peachmangosteen

[peachmangosteen]

I'm sorry but I just saw this on reddit and I am howling lol.

[seank941]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

We did start out with just our four people and it seemed as if it was a small experiment in Severance. Maybe what they were doing wasn’t really meaningful, but eventually Lumon could sell this as a revolution in workspace technology.  Having it be something Cobel invented makes sense in this context, as does her running the severed floor.

Now we know that MDR was part of a significant experiment with larger implications. I don’t think we know how widespread the technology is, or if it is being used all over the world. I keep on thinking about the pictures we saw of the coups and I think that perhaps  this has happened before.  They are trying to learn how to make the innies happy, so it won’t happen again, but it has happened again. It is possible the Severance technology is part of an ongoing attempt to make the workers more biddable, not the original thing itself (they had the huff, afterall), and part of a long line of controlling techniques. We may, indeed, find that at one point the Eagans were slaveholders.

I’m still betting on something like scientology, a multinational technology or medical research company with religious aspirations.

 

I wish the show would stay smaller. Everything just feels less believable as Lumon expands. How can there be no security for the entire floor? Drummond was supposed to be above normal management, so he shouldn't even visit the severed floor. It's bad enough they never replaced the security guard that was killed last season (I forget his name), but what if innies get into a fight with each other? Kids get into fights all the time. 

What ever happened to Petey's anti-severance group? I don't really care if they are ever introduced in the show, but I think that's the area they should focus on if they have to expand things. It's a shame they made reintegration so difficult,  because there's no way all the severed people we just saw will be reintegrated. Reintegration is the only way to help save innies, because even if Lumon agrees to let everyone stay on the floor and be free to do anything, it's just some weird zoo. 

Lumon should try to reintegrate people when they are full believers and hope to get people like season 1 Cobel.

[SoMuchTV]

15 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm sorry but I just saw this on reddit and I am howling lol.

Help me out? Should I recognize the photo that the faces are superimposed on? Or is there something else I’m not getting?

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, seank941 said:

I wish the show would stay smaller. Everything just feels less believable as Lumon expands. How can there be no security for the entire floor? Drummond was supposed to be above normal management, so he shouldn't even visit the severed floor. It's bad enough they never replaced the security guard that was killed last season (I forget his name), but what if innies get into a fight with each other? Kids get into fights all the time. 

What ever happened to Petey's anti-severance group? I don't really care if they are ever introduced in the show, but I think that's the area they should focus on if they have to expand things. It's a shame they made reintegration so difficult,  because there's no way all the severed people we just saw will be reintegrated. Reintegration is the only way to help save innies, because even if Lumon agrees to let everyone stay on the floor and be free to do anything, it's just some weird zoo. 

Lumon should try to reintegrate people when they are full believers and hope to get people like season 1 Cobel.

Petey’s antiseverance group was the woman who did brain surgery on Mark in his basement. I thought. There are probably more, need to know basis. 
 

[KarenX]

14 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Petey’s antiseverance group was the woman who did brain surgery on Mark in his basement. I thought. There are probably more, need to know basis.

There was the anti-severance protest duo Mark and his date ran into outdoors, too.

[Affogato]

18 minutes ago, KarenX said:

There was the anti-severance protest duo Mark and his date ran into outdoors, too.

Well, more evidence that severance is more widespread. I suppose. But our characters either don’t know because innies, ot just had a baby or have head up ass (Rickon and Mark) or caring for three kids while wife works…etc

[aghst]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

We did start out with just our four people and it seemed as if it was a small experiment in Severance. Maybe what they were doing wasn’t really meaningful, but eventually Lumon could sell this as a revolution in workspace technology.  Having it be something Cobel invented makes sense in this context, as does her running the severed floor.

Now we know that MDR was part of a significant experiment with larger implications. I don’t think we know how widespread the technology is, or if it is being used all over the world. I keep on thinking about the pictures we saw of the coups and I think that perhaps  this has happened before.  They are trying to learn how to make the innies happy, so it won’t happen again, but it has happened again. It is possible the Severance technology is part of an ongoing attempt to make the workers more biddable, not the original thing itself (they had the huff, afterall), and part of a long line of controlling techniques. We may, indeed, find that at one point the Eagans were slaveholders.

I’m still betting on something like scientology, a multinational technology or medical research company with religious aspirations.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Well, more evidence that severance is more widespread. I suppose. But our characters either don’t know because innies, ot just had a baby or have head up ass (Rickon and Mark) or caring for three kids while wife works…etc

Unless Lumon is a huge cult, extending way beyond the town they depict on the show, I would have a difficult time believing that it's widespread.

They may sell it as a technology for making people more productive.  However, we see clearly that's not the case, MDR works aren't some automatons who go full tilt for work throughout the workday.

I'm not convinced there is a business model to make money or that Lumon even cares?  Instead they're true believers, in Keir an how this whole project is some historic milestone for all of mankind.

What would be the appeal unless you're in the cult?   Does Lumon disclose that they can flip a switch and have your consciousness be replaced by the Innie, even OUTSIDE Lumon premises?

Even if they lie about that, I don't see a big incentive for people to undergo severance.  Mark said it helped cope with his grief.  Well there's therapy and drugs to help people manage depression or discontent.

These treatments may not be effective but they don't involve invasive surgery, cutting into your brain.

Seriously who would sign up for that?  People have brain surgery because it's a life and death situation, like a tumor.  Otherwise they wouldn't take risks.

Or at a minimum, there would have to be trials and studies proving that the severance procedure is both safe and effective.

But we saw when Outie Dylan interviewed for that job that people have a dim view of severance and Lumon.

So Lumon isn't experimenting with severance because they think it will be highly profitable.  It's because they're true believers and they will abduct people and break whatever laws to get their way.

At one point, one of the characters did say that if it was discovered, Lumon would be finished.  I think it may have been Devon.  But Lumon doesn't  control politicians and the courts to the extent that they can do whatever they want.

 

 

[Affogato]

44 minutes ago, aghst said:

 

Unless Lumon is a huge cult, extending way beyond the town they depict on the show, I would have a difficult time believing that it's widespread.

They may sell it as a technology for making people more productive.  However, we see clearly that's not the case, MDR works aren't some automatons who go full tilt for work throughout the workday.

I'm not convinced there is a business model to make money or that Lumon even cares?  Instead they're true believers, in Keir an how this whole project is some historic milestone for all of mankind.

What would be the appeal unless you're in the cult?   Does Lumon disclose that they can flip a switch and have your consciousness be replaced by the Innie, even OUTSIDE Lumon premises?

Even if they lie about that, I don't see a big incentive for people to undergo severance.  Mark said it helped cope with his grief.  Well there's therapy and drugs to help people manage depression or discontent.

These treatments may not be effective but they don't involve invasive surgery, cutting into your brain.

Seriously who would sign up for that?  People have brain surgery because it's a life and death situation, like a tumor.  Otherwise they wouldn't take risks.

Or at a minimum, there would have to be trials and studies proving that the severance procedure is both safe and effective.

But we saw when Outie Dylan interviewed for that job that people have a dim view of severance and Lumon.

So Lumon isn't experimenting with severance because they think it will be highly profitable.  It's because they're true believers and they will abduct people and break whatever laws to get their way.

At one point, one of the characters did say that if it was discovered, Lumon would be finished.  I think it may have been Devon.  But Lumon doesn't  control politicians and the courts to the extent that they can do whatever they want.

 

 

I think Lumon is a large multinational corporation, probably in medical technology and pharmaceuticals, which already is or is also rebranding as a scientology like religious entity. Severance is tbe next step in the pro ess. Remember Helena used a non Lumon ointment on her arm rash, causing hallucinations that led her to say things against Lumon.  They sent miss Huang to Europe to an empathy center. They want Rickon to write a severed bible. Gemma was being audited. Imagine if you are afraid of flying. Get clear of it. Afraid of the dentist? Consumed by grief? Can be fixed, in exchange for money. If you run out of money, come work for us. You won’t remember a thing. 
 

 

Edited March 24 by Affogato

[seank941]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Well, more evidence that severance is more widespread. I suppose. But our characters either don’t know because innies, ot just had a baby or have head up ass (Rickon and Mark) or caring for three kids while wife works…etc

I agree that it's more widespread, and I don't expect the characters to care about that. I don't really care if they show are ever mentioned again, but I'd rather have a scene of them planning on how to get Gemma from the stairwell to the parking lot over a dance number by the severed marching band. 

[Notwisconsin]

The ending makes sense because iMark is in love with Hally and knows Gemma merely as a coworker.

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, seank941 said:

I agree that it's more widespread, and I don't expect the characters to care about that. I don't really care if they show are ever mentioned again, but I'd rather have a scene of them planning on how to get Gemma from the stairwell to the parking lot over a dance number by the severed marching band. 

Maybe they decided to have Gemma rin into Jame. Or the ‘getaway car’ but we didn’t see it. 

[sadie]

This ep could have been 20 minutes shorter if we didnt spend endless scenes of people walking thru hallways. Sigh. I did not like this season. Too many new motivations that were new and didn’t make sense.

correct me if I’m wrong but up until like 3 eps ago we had never heard about Cold Harbor, and none of the innies had either. They just sat at their desks hitting numbers and all was well. Then  all of a sudden Lumen acts like Cold Harbor was always known about so much so they send a marching band in to reward him for completing this task? Huh? 

why does Lumen have to tend to goats indoors? Even if they are used for sacrifice. Can’t they raise them outside and still kill them when needed? Just weirdness for weirdness sakes.

so is Milchik a true believer or not. Half the time you can tell he resents the racism he endures but then he’s dancing along as head marching band guy? Which is it?

and all of a sudden iMark is pissed at oMark? And we still don’t know why they picked Gemma? I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful insights into what they think the experiment was about, but if you guys hadn’t explained it to me I would not have gotten that from the show itself.

maybe I’m just not smart enough for this show or maybe the creators think they’re creating some kind of of high art think piece but when you pull it apart it makes little sense.

 

 

[RedHawk]

On 3/21/2025 at 11:47 AM, iMonrey said:

Finally, Mark's decision to run off with Helly might feel emotionally satisfying but it makes no logical sense. There's nowhere for them to go.

Speculation: I think iMark made the choice Helena wanted him to make. We saw her lonely emptiness on the outside. As Helly she has a life of sorts, and love. 

The final seconds of their run through the hallways reminded me of the end of the film “The Graduate“. iMark’s expression suddenly seemed concerned and unsure. “What have I done?”

[luna1122again]

On 3/21/2025 at 4:45 PM, Ilovepie said:

 

4. Dylan's letter to himself. It was oddly sweet in his own way. I'm glad he went and helped Helly hold of Milkshake. Speaking of....

 

1. The marching band just felt like an excuse to have Milchick dancing again. Meh.

I loved Dylan's letter to himself too. He's ultimately such a sweet man, innie or outie. 

But I will always take a dance-y Milchick. 

On 3/22/2025 at 12:56 AM, Starchild said:

 

And I didn't like Helly's smug look back at Gemma when Mark chose to stay. She's still a dick.

I believe that that was Helly, not Helena, but there's a lot of Helena in Helly, apparently. That sneering "bitch I got your man" look at a devastated Gemma...wtf was that even about? Britt Lower has a bit of a RBF (as do I, so I get it) but everything that's presented in this show appears to be deliberate, so I have to believe that was a deliberate acting/directing/editing choice, that look. 

On 3/21/2025 at 8:22 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Oh, wow, I didn’t realize until I listened to the show podcast for this episode - the actor who plays Mr. Drummond was also on Somebody Somewhere (as “Iceland”). Two very different characters!  He was a guest on the podcast. His name is Ólafur Darri Ólafsson. (I had to copy & paste that to get the spelling and characters right.)

OMG. I had no idea either. And he was so dear on Somebody Somewhere, so completely the antithesis of Drummond. 

 

On 3/22/2025 at 6:20 PM, Snewtsie said:

I wasn't thrilled with the finale.  Regardless, I really loved Emile and hope to see more of him next season. 

Emile was adorable, I was so happy he lived as well. He's a very expressive little guy. 

I don't know if Gemma and Mark's marriage would have lasted forever, but the absolute joy on Mark's face at seeing her was not the face of a man who no longer loved his wife. 

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, luna1122again said:

I loved Dylan's letter to himself too. He's ultimately such a sweet man, innie or outie. 

But I will always take a dance-y Milchick. 

I believe that that was Helly, not Helena, but there's a lot of Helena in Helly, apparently. That sneering "bitch I got your man" look at a devastated Gemma...wtf was that even about? Britt Lower has a bit of a RBF (as do I, so I get it) but everything that's presented in this show appears to be deliberate, so I have to believe that was a deliberate acting/directing/editing choice, that look

Absolutely Helly is capable of cruelty. Now. She is learning, James helped. 
 

but episodes ago Helly says she will help with Grmma because she is one of us, Mark says he will take her to the stair ase and his outie will know what to do. This was maybe a hard decision but one iMARK had already made. And iMark does not know Gemma. 

[luna1122again]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Absolutely Helly is capable of cruelty. Now. She is learning, James helped. 
 

but episodes ago Helly says she will help with Grmma because she is one of us, Mark says he will take her to the stair ase and his outie will know what to do. This was maybe a hard decision but one iMARK had already made. And iMark does not know Gemma. 

I get why iMark made the decision he did. I just don't get Helly's reaction. It definitely doesn't make me feel all warm n goopy and 'shippy about iMark and Helly. 

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

and all of a sudden iMark is pissed at oMark?

I thought that made sense. Outie Mark was being a dick lol.

Quote

maybe I’m just not smart enough for this show or maybe the creators think they’re creating some kind of of high art think piece but when you pull it apart it makes little sense.

I do think the writers are a little high on themselves and what they've done. It happens to most (all?) of them when their shows get acclaim.

38 minutes ago, luna1122again said:

I get why iMark made the decision he did. I just don't get Helly's reaction. It definitely doesn't make me feel all warm n goopy and 'shippy about iMark and Helly. 

That's exactly what I said. Innie Mark choosing to stay with Helly is fine but Helly shooting Gemma a bitchy smile was nasty and I didn't like it.

[ombre]

Helly has been the most vocal about her hatred of outies and rallying innies to their common cause.  A pan-innie sentiment, if you will. Every time someone else gets angry at an outie she cheers them on. So it made perfect sense to me that she would both work to help innie Gemma ("she's one of us") and also kinda dig winning her man over outie Gemma. 

[Affogato]

45 minutes ago, ombre said:

Helly has been the most vocal about her hatred of outies and rallying innies to their common cause.  A pan-innie sentiment, if you will. Every time someone else gets angry at an outie she cheers them on. So it made perfect sense to me that she would both work to help innie Gemma ("she's one of us") and also kinda dig winning her man over outie Gemma. 

Also, iDylan has so far been about having oDylan’s life, wife and kids. Now he has changed his focus. He will be his badass self. Helly is becoming the leader the Innie’s need. IMark has made a choice, not just of woman, but of sides. It is an uprising. 
 

 

Edited March 24 by Affogato

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

It is an uprising. 

Well, a siderising. They can't go up (or down).

[tennisgurl]

I often say this when I watch this show, but I so did not see that one coming. I'm not gonna lie, I was pissed at Innie Mark, especially after seeing how much Gemma has already suffered, but upon further reflection I think I get it. Innie Mark still does not trust the reintrigration process, doesn't really trust his Outtie to have his best interest at heart, and knows that if he leaves that building, at the very least, he'll never see Helly again. I don't think that he and Helly have any kind of plan, all they know is that they want to get away from the possibility of being separated. Its a The Graduate ending where the couple runs off together without any plan for what to do next and are probably going to be stuck sitting there by the end of their sprint wondering what to do next by the next season. 

That being said, I think that something is up with Helly. That smirk she gave Gemma as she and Mark ran away seemed way more Helena than Helly, maybe she hasn't fully switched but I worry that Helena is starting to come through. Like she said, she is still Helena, maybe the parts that Helena wants to be, rebellious, fun loving, able to feel real love, but still Helena. 

Gemma and Mark's relationship might have been going through a rough patch but I don't think that their marriage was doomed. Mark mourned her so much that his life fell apart and Gemma held onto her feelings for Mark no matter what Lumon did to her, even during Cold Harbor, they still clearly loved each other even with the stress of their fertility issues, if Gemma hadn't been taken they would have worked past it.

Outtie Dylan's letter to Innie Dylan was so nice, he seems to really get that Innies and Outties are a part of each other in a healthy kind of way that most everyone else haven't gotten to. 

Why does Lumon have a whole severed marching band? Because they're weird like that. And because they like to flex their power in bizarre ways because they aren't connected to the world in any real way. They give Innies bizarre things like marching bands and dance parties and creepy masked dancers because they have no idea what people actually want, or they don't care.

You don't hire Gwendoline Christie and not give her a fight scene. Love seeing her again and I'm so glad that Emile was saved. Emile is the name of the goat, you see. 

Edited Monday at 04:39 PM by tennisgurl

[peachmangosteen]

Thinking about it more and I think the reason the final scene didn’t fully work for me is because the Helly/Mark relationship just never fully resonated with me. I mean he didn’t even realize she wasn’t Helly. Even Irving did lol.

[AstridM]

On 3/23/2025 at 11:29 AM, Affogato said:

There is a deeper philosophical truth lingering under this hard chocolate coating.

What???

[AstridM]

21 hours ago, Kirbyrun said:

I can't go back and check right now, but I'm 99% sure that early in the season, Milchick told outie Mark that his innie had found love, or words to that effect.

Yes, but at the time he told him that, Milchick had already fired the original MDR team (including Helly R) and replaced them with the new people, so he was already lying. He was sending Mark back to work with a brand new team, knowing Mark S would no longer be working with Helly R. 

[AstridM]

19 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Help me out? Should I recognize the photo that the faces are superimposed on? Or is there something else I’m not getting?

It’s just internet nonsense 🤦‍♀️

17 hours ago, Affogato said:

Remember Helena used a non Lumon ointment on her arm rash, causing hallucinations that led her to say things against Lumon.

That was a lie she made up. 

Edited Monday at 06:49 PM by AstridM

[AstridM]

6 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Speculation: I think iMark made the choice Helena wanted him to make. We saw her lonely emptiness on the outside. As Helly she has a life of sorts, and love. 

The final seconds of their run through the hallways reminded me of the end of the film “The Graduate“. iMark’s expression suddenly seemed concerned and unsure. “What have I done?”

That scene was 💯 inspired by the end of The Graduate.

[Kirbyrun]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

Yes, but at the time he told him that, Milchick had already fired the original MDR team (including Helly R) and replaced them with the new people, so he was already lying. He was sending Mark back to work with a brand new team, knowing Mark S would no longer be working with Helly R. 

That is true, but it has no bearing on the original issue/question, which is whether or not Mark Scout did or could know that his innie was romantically entangled. Mark Scout only knows what Milchick told him, which is that his innie had found love.