S02.E07: Chikhai Bardo

[juno]

An old romance intersects with a deadly present threat.

Episode airs Feb 28, 2025

Edited February 22 by juno

[Affogato]

 

https://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Chikhai_Bardo:_The_Intermediate_state_of_the_Time_of_Death

Chikhai Bardo: The Intermediate state of the Time of Death

The intermediate state of the time of death or the Chikhai bardo as it is called in the Tibetan text, is the first of the three intermediate states that the consciousness experiences according to the text in the great liberation by hearing. The Buddhist lamas believe that this first intermediate state has crucial importance because the consciousness at this point is free of all the basic constituents of its physical and metal forms and based on the text, if the consciousness listens carefully to the lama’s guidelines, describing the true nature of the consciousness’ inner radiant truth, then liberation can be attainedimmediately without falling into the next two intermediate states or the next bardoexperiences. This is the point at the moment of death, where the lamaactually starts to recite the text from the sacred book and based on the lama’s words the consciousness can perceivethe naked awareness and thus achieve liberation.

 

 

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, Affogato said:

 

https://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Chikhai_Bardo:_The_Intermediate_state_of_the_Time_of_Death

Chikhai Bardo: The Intermediate state of the Time of Death

The intermediate state of the time of death or the Chikhai bardo as it is called in the Tibetan text, is the first of the three intermediate states that the consciousness experiences according to the text in the great liberation by hearing. The Buddhist lamas believe that this first intermediate state has crucial importance because the consciousness at this point is free of all the basic constituents of its physical and metal forms and based on the text, if the consciousness listens carefully to the lama’s guidelines, describing the true nature of the consciousness’ inner radiant truth, then liberation can be attainedimmediately without falling into the next two intermediate states or the next bardoexperiences. This is the point at the moment of death, where the lamaactually starts to recite the text from the sacred book and based on the lama’s words the consciousness can perceivethe naked awareness and thus achieve liberation.

 

 

https://www.tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Chikhai_Bardo:_The_Primordial_(Clear_Light)_and_the_Awareness-Body
 

In this state, the person temporarily experiences for the first time the state of awareness without a second, that is to say, a state of pure consciousness.

This is the state of non-duality. The first experience here is the sight of the Primordial Clear Light or the "Clear Light of Reality." This is the pure mind of the Buddha, Christ, and all the perfected saints and mystics.
 

—————

this seems to explain it better than the first, but it is a confusing concept. I think. Anyway, Mark is in for some shit. 

[arc]

(just wild speculation here:) Wait, has the Lumon logo been a drop of blood all along and not water???

Haha, a goat orientation eye chart. Wait, what's happening? Is this the "outie" of Ms Casey???? ... I'm as surprised as anyone that the room she finally arrived at wasn't Cold Harbor.

... Oooookaay. She's an outie (ish) who knows about severance, and then on the inside of the dental room she's not Ms Casey. (She's much too emotional, and meanwhile it seems like this one's only purpose is to sit in the dentist's chair. Ms Casey's 107 hours of life were spent as wellness counselor on the severed floor.) So severance isn't limited to one innie. This makes severance even more evil, somehow. And this obviously isn't for actual dental work, because this is just an experiments room.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Gemma's handler, but needing a small blood draw on top of the handprint access seems very excessive. This is far more paranoid than the severed floor, which just relies on keycards. Anyways, there is a Cold Harbor room but they didn't enter it yet. OK, so is each room a personality MDR is constructing or rebuilding?

Whatever green thumb transferred by osmosis to Mark, he clearly gave it up after Gemma died. There might not be a single plant in his Lumon house.

... whoa, wait, Ms Casey's outie is actually Gemma? I figured for sure she was a constructed personality like Ms Casey or something. My mind has been blown several times this episode already and we're just halfway through. Also, wait, were they continuously X-raying her head the whole time? I'm so shocked that doctor was just sitting there the whole time, no lead vest or anything. Maybe she's his only patient so he doesn't get any more X-ray exposure than she does. Less, really, considering the angle.

I'm so impressed with the fake plane turbulence room. Shaking the room is one thing but somehow dropping so hard the fake flight attendant hit the ceiling? That's next level.

This opposite-MDR room is fascinating. It's dark where MDR is oppressively bright, and the four workstations are oriented so the four workers are facing outwards instead of in. But yet there's still MDR-ish green carpeting. And the walls are tiled like the room Irving and Mark sat in to question Helly while she woke up as part of her first day.

The match cuts have been killer this episode. Nearly pinpoint on the angles, lens length, etc. (Ah, turns out tonight's episode was directed by the series' cinematographer.)

LMAO, Dr Mauer got clocked like a chump. His fault for doing a villain monologue!

OK, so Gemma switched into Ms Casey upon getting up out of the testing floor. That tells us the innie-outie flip is (usually) automatic. As the description from s1 said, it's "spatially dictated" -- Gemma has a chip that flips her to different personalities in different rooms, and on the severed floor it's Ms Casey. Because she took this elevator ride totally unauthorized and yet she switched. But man, I'm sad Mr Milchick cut off her escape attempt, not that Ms Casey even knew it was an escape attempt.

(Milchick must basically live at the office. It was 7:30 pm when Gemma made a break for it. ... I suppose it's possible her clock isn't aligned with outside time.)

On a really minor note I find it very visually interesting if nonsensical, how some of the less traveled hallways on the severed floor have overhead lights that only light up when someone's there, but on the testing floor they have footlights that do that instead. You'd think a company like Lumon would have standardized things. And certainly I don't see a particular reason not to use the overhead lights that we know are already there and turned on in daylight hours.

Edited Friday at 05:50 AM by arc

[dwmarch]

That was the weirdest fucking episode of Dollhouse I have ever seen.

[Girl in a Cardigan]

That was wild, but I found myself really liking it. Flirty Adam Scott is my favorite Adam Scott after all.

So it seems like Lumon got their paws on Mark and Gemma through the fertility clinic. I'm very interested in how those cards from O&D (and whatever Gemma was doing with them) play into whatever the hell experiments she's going through now. It's also interesting that she seems to know something about what happens depending on what clothes are in her closet that day, even if she doesn't know exactly what's happening to her in those rooms.

I'm definitely joining those who were saying that MDR and everything has do with bringing Kier back to life because that definitely seems to be plan. Though I'm not entirely sure what making Gemma write 150 thank you notes has to do with that, except that one guy seems to just want to play house with Gemma.

Given that they've had Mark have sex with Helena and Helly, it feels like they are definitely trying for a pregnancy there. And since it seems like Lumon found Gemma and Mark through the fertility clinic, perhaps they are trying for pregnancy in her too. How the goats play into this is mystery - though nurturing mammals is also childcare, so perhaps they are trying to prep those innies to run some sort of human daycare?

I'm a little surprised that Devon wanted to call Cobel, given how pissed she was about the lactation fraud, but I guess she was really worried about Mark and doesn't know that basement scientist from Adam. I hope Mark's okay, but I really want to know if he's integrated.

Also funny that Drummond called out that no one seems to be refining data these days and Cold Harbor has been stuck close to done for a minute.

[Dev F]

I've never really understood the complaints that Severance is filled with weirdness for weirdness's sake, à la the random polar bears on Lost, but if they persist after this week I'll be even more baffled. For me this episode functioned as sort of a Rosetta Stone that illuminates the core themes of the series: It's about work, but not just in the sense of white-collar labor. It's about the struggle and suffering that defines human life, and the numbness and alienation that comes from cutting oneself off from that work to avoid the inevitable pain.

This episode finally crystallized for me how that applies just as much to the show's romantic relationships (something I've seen folks characterize recently as a soapy distraction from the show's real story). As we follow Mark and Gemma's relationship through the years, we see how something that started out as a welcome respite from their jobs becomes a job itself, and how that starts to subtly drive a wedge between them.

And how perfect is it to finally learn that Lumon's mysterious and important work is apparently not about resurrecting dead Eagans or something similarly plotty, but about severing humanity from every unpleasant form of emotional labor, from going to the dentist to airplane turbulence to writing thank-you notes?

For the moment, it seems like the purpose of Macrodata Refinement is to isolate the negative emotions associated with these various obligations, with the Testing Floor verifying that none of the unpleasantness is leaking through for the outie to experience afterward. But I wonder if another part of it might be to capture the unique signature of each negative experience so the chip can activate the appropriate innie regardless of location—so that, say, if you're having a pleasant plane trip and suddenly the turbulence kicks in, your chip will automatically switch to the Dealing with Turbulence innie and spare you the suffering. 

That seems like the kind of product that Lumon could legitimately market as "one of the greatest moments in the history of this planet"—a brain implant that neatly filters out every daily struggle—and also a ticket to a horrifying dystopia of lost, broken people who don't know how to deal with pain. (The Mark/Gemma situation always makes me think of the quote from Christopher Nolan's Memento: "How am I supposed to heal if I can't feel time?")

But regardless of exactly where this is all going, it certainly seems to be going somewhere meaningful—cohering on a thematic level even though the exact contours of the literal story are still not entirely clear.

Edited to add: Memento quote

Edited Friday at 01:59 PM by Dev F

[arc]

12 hours ago, Dev F said:

For the moment, it seems like the purpose of Macrodata Refinement is to isolate the negative emotions associated with these various obligations, with the Testing Floor verifying that none of the unpleasantness is leaking through for the outie to experience afterward.

Per the first season's ebook, the numbers correspond to Kier Eagan's "four tempers" theory: woe, frolic, dread, and malice. (I guess three of those tempers are negative, but frolic is a positive one.) Anyways, according to the refiners, they have to sort an equal number of each temper into the five bins. This really only barely makes sense, esp because five bins equally full of the four tempers wouldn't seem to be anything interesting. Unless maybe the bins are waste tempers and what's left behind is what's important, but then why five bins instead of one? And how would there be a precisely equal amount of waste tempers too?

(It also doesn't make sense that numbers on a CRT can evoke these emotions without looking any different. And it especially doesn't make sense that the computer can convey those emotions and tell the refiner which bin is wrong for which number, but yet the refining process isn't fully automated.)

That said, your theory tracks with the idea that there never was a physical Dieter Eagan but Kier had a sort of proto-severance moment where he dissociated from a part of himself he didn't like, and thus "Dieter" "died" in the forest.

Edited Friday at 07:05 PM by arc

[seank941]

 I was getting some major Vault-Tec vibes in this episode.

I like that we finally got some answers about Ms. Casey and what's in the black hallway, but for some reason I'm still not warming up to the character. I don't know if it's the writing, the acting, or something else, but I'm worried this will become the Mark and Gemma vs Lumon story, and I can't really get there. 

Speaking of which, I missed the MDR team. I know they were not necessary for the episode, but I was hoping we could get a glimpse of Dylan in a wellness session or something. 

3 hours ago, Girl in a Cardigan said:

I'm a little surprised that Devon wanted to call Cobel, given how pissed she was about the lactation fraud, but I guess she was really worried about Mark and doesn't know that basement scientist from Adam. I hope Mark's okay, but I really want to know if he's integrated.

This was the first time I found myself actually disliking Devon. She's smart enough to know that calling Cobel is the worst thing she could do in the situation. She might as well call Drummond and have Mark locked up for the rest of his life. It felt like she was pissed about not being included in the plan, and wanted to take control of something.

I was a little surprised that nobody came looking for Mark. The last time he called in sick it was a big deal, and that was before he was almost finished with a major project.  

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, dwmarch said:

That was the weirdest fucking episode of Dollhouse I have ever seen.

Best observation ever.

[AheadofStraight]

I am only at the beginning of the episode but had to comment on Sandra Bernhard being the nurse! Haven't seen her in ages! Oh and Robby Benson!!

[dwmarch]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Best observation ever.

Thanks! I re-read a wiki description of Dollhouse 2x04 "Belonging" and there are some other connections I had forgotten about beyond the obvious. Spoiler coded for those who haven't seen Dollhouse:

Spoiler

Sierra (Dichen Lachman's character) expresses her pain using black paint, which she uses to paint the same thing over and over.

Adelle, the high ranking company woman, is using Victor for sexual fulfillment. Victor is Sierra's true love and he is one of her fellow Dolls.

If we think Lumon caused Gemma's fertility problems, there's something similar in the Dollhouse episode as well. The evil doctor in that one uses drugs to make her appear as a paranoid schizophrenic, causing the problem that he is happy to solve.

Dollhouse was a bit of slow burn in the first season but "Belonging" was where the show really stepped on the gas. Once we have season 2 of this show in the bag it will be interesting to compare them in more detail.

[ombre]

The doctor is very confusing to me. It feels like he has the eyes and mannerisms of john noble's character, but appears to be doing the work I would expect of Christopher walken's character. But he's too young to be either of them. But if it were a flashback then Gemma should have aged. I feel like they're deliberately having the doctor evoke the two older men but damn is it all making my head spin. 

 

Also, gemma and Devon have *incredibly* similar voices. 

[Dev F]

22 minutes ago, ombre said:

The doctor is very confusing to me. It feels like he has the eyes and mannerisms of john noble's character, but appears to be doing the work I would expect of Christopher walken's character. But he's too young to be either of them. But if it were a flashback then Gemma should have aged. I feel like they're deliberately having the doctor evoke the two older men but damn is it all making my head spin.

It's quite possible that the show is casting Lumon higher-ups with a particular type in mind, but Dr. Mauer isn't meant to be a younger version of an existing character. He's just a new player who was introduced last week, pushing the supply cart and whistling "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald."

The scenes with him and Gemma are taking place in more or less the present day. For instance, you see the bizarro MDR team on the testing floor (Microdata Refinement is the name someone on Reddit suggested) watching interactions we've seen on the show, and in the last scene with them Drummond tells Mauer that Mark is almost finished with Cold Harbor but "the nosebleeds set us back," which means that scene is taking place after the events of the previous episode. (And at this point Irv's bizarro counterpart is missing, presumably because Irv was fired two episodes ago.)

Edited Friday at 05:21 PM by Dev F

[iMonrey]

So I guess Lumon is experimenting with Severence for practical applications on test subjects, but why all the subterfuge? How did they get Gemma and why was Mark told she died? From what I gather, the employees on the Severed floor all signed up voluntarily. Surely they could get test subjects the same way. 

OMG Robby Benson looks so old. It makes me feel so old seeing my contemporaries age like this. 

Edited Friday at 05:21 PM by iMonrey

[AstridM]

17 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

OMG Robby Benson looks so old. It makes me feel so old seeing my contemporaries age like this. 

Awww, I thought he looked ok. Ice Castles, baby! 😁

[aghst]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

So I guess Lumon is experimenting with Severence for practical applications on test subjects, but why all the subterfuge? How did they get Gemma and why was Mark told she died? From what I gather, the employees on the Severed floor all signed up voluntarily. Surely they could get test subjects the same way. 

OMG Robby Benson looks so old. It makes me feel so old seeing my contemporaries age like this. 

This episode crystallized that Lumon is evil, not just some weirdo cult with too much power.

Either they got Gemma to get severed under false pretenses or they just straight abducted her.  I can't conceive of a way in which she signs up for the Lumon Fertility Clinic and then consents to have a chip implanted in her brain.  That was probably what happened when she left and she said "I love you to Mark," repeated it so he said it back.  Then the police come to their house late at night.

So they perpetuated a fraud, telling Mark that she was killed, but instead she ends up in the deepest recesses of Lumon, a severed human guinea pig.

Either way, they're clearly keeping her against her will, making her endure these experiments which she doesn't enjoy.

Drummond told the other guy -- was it also Dr. Mauer -- that once Cold Harbor was done, she would have to go away.  So that could mean they kill her or release her.

Somehow, I don't think they will release her, because what they're doing is illegal, false imprisonment, at a minimum.  

Then again, this is an alternate reality and Lumon supposedly runs that town, region, state.

 

[jacehan]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Microdata Refinement

I prefer Metadata Refinement, since it's data about the Macrodata.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Thanks! I re-read a wiki description of Dollhouse 2x04 "Belonging" and there are some other connections I had forgotten about beyond the obvious. Spoiler coded for those who haven't seen Dollhouse:

  Reveal spoiler

Sierra (Dichen Lachman's character) expresses her pain using black paint, which she uses to paint the same thing over and over.

Adelle, the high ranking company woman, is using Victor for sexual fulfillment. Victor is Sierra's true love and he is one of her fellow Dolls.

If we think Lumon caused Gemma's fertility problems, there's something similar in the Dollhouse episode as well. The evil doctor in that one uses drugs to make her appear as a paranoid schizophrenic, causing the problem that he is happy to solve.

Dollhouse was a bit of slow burn in the first season but "Belonging" was where the show really stepped on the gas. Once we have season 2 of this show in the bag it will be interesting to compare them in more detail.

Did I fall asleep? 
 

The casting of Dichen Lachlen gracefully acknowledges the DNA the two shows share. It is odd more people don’t talk about it. She did an incredible job this episode and I think she has grown better looking. 

[AheadofStraight]

We just rewatched and one random thing I noticed. When she was doing the thank you notes she was using her left hand and her handwriting was abysmal and she is clearly not left-handed. No idea if that means anything lol 

[Pi237]

When this episode began, I thought, “oh no the snoozer backstory of their love story” but Wow, was I wrong. This was such a great episode. You all are way smarter and have better memories than me. So, nothing helpful to add. Just imagining your entire existence spent in a never ending painful dental procedure! Brutal. 
 

“It’s Always Christmas”  lmao.  Such a Joyous time turned into a nonstop nightmare of tedium.  So good. 
 

I couldn’t get a read on Gemma knowing she was ghosting Mark when she left for the charades party. So, I’m thinking kidnapped. But she was so subdued and resigned in Lumon. Either she gave up trying to escape or was willing….hard to tell.  Either way, being unable to escape an existence you don’t want, your own brain keeping you prisoner…brilliant nightmare fuel. 

[aghst]

Damon Lindelof, one of the show runners of Lost, theorized that Gemma died and Lumon cloned and Cold Harbor is going to fully restore her in the cloned body.

He’s aware that the Severance show runners said that it doesn’t have to do with clones but doesn’t believe them.

But he hadn’t seen this episode 7, which is mainly about Gemma.

[SoMuchTV]

14 minutes ago, aghst said:

Damon Lindelof, one of the show runners of Lost, theorized that Gemma died and Lumon cloned and Cold Harbor is going to fully restore her in the cloned body.

He’s aware that the Severance show runners said that it doesn’t have to do with clones but doesn’t believe them.

But he hadn’t seen this episode 7, which is mainly about Gemma.

I love that a show runner of Lost doesn’t trust show runners. 

[Starchild]

Did I hear this right?

When Devin is arguing with the doctor about what's going on with Mark, the doctor says he's reintegrating. Devin says, "no he isn't, we're not doing that again."

Again? Has he tried to reintegrate before and doesn't remember?

Did anyone else hear this? Or did I just mishear? Or did Mark tell her about Petey and that's what she means?

[arc]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Did I hear this right?

When Devin is arguing with the doctor about what's going on with Mark, the doctor says he's reintegrating. Devin says, "no he isn't, we're not doing that again."

Quote

Reghabi: your brother's reintegrating.

Devon: No, he's not.

Reghabi: I know that was troubling.

Devon: Okay. I can tell that you're smarter than me, so forgive me if I say this, like super plainly, but if you give one solitary thought to messing with my brother again, I will throw you off a fucking bridge. 

Reghabi: Devon --

Devon: We don't do that again.

Reghabi: We'll discuss it later?

Devon: Nope! No. It's settled fucking law, lady, okay?

so the "again" isn't about something Mark's already done in the past; she's warning Reghabi not to damage Mark again.

Switching topics, I had no idea that crazy moving shot from Ms Casey in MDR down to the metadata refinement office was done physically, not with CGI: https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/severance-director-no-cgi-1235099910/

Jessica Lee Gagne talked about the episode with Esquire: link, MSN-syndicated link, Yahoo-syndicated link (the latter two shouldn't have any paywall).

[maddie965]

This is the darkest episode so far. Gemma’s life is nightmare after nightmare, a never-ending torture session of knowing and not knowing, of missing Mark and having to be with other men (sexuallly too?). Now the severed floor doesn't seem so bad...

Loved the Mark and Gemma love story. Happy, flirty Adam Scott is a vision to behold.

Gotta watch a few other times to understand everything.

I bet Gemma and Mark meet at Cold Harbor, but then he reintegrates and they both scape. Or try too.

[Affogato]

In This episode I believe Devon is doubling down on her feelings that Mark is important to her. Given a choice, screw the investigation. 
 

 Cobel/Selvig was raised by Lumon. Like Miss Huang? It would explain the weird religious behavior of Selvig, of course. Who else was raised by Lumon?  Also, do the goat prople ever go outside?

in this episode I loved the flashback scenes s, especially the cinematic outdoor scenes. Mark giving Gemma an ant farm is chilling, given they both end up in an ant farm situation.  The difference between  their house, full of plants, light and high ceilings, and the house Mark owns is stark and indicative of his loss and grief. The difference between their final ‘I love you’s between ‘Mark and Gemma (he must berate himself for that as he sits in the dark) and the doctor insisting she say ‘I love you’ is also heartbreaking. 
 

i think the doctor will try to keep her. 
 

The clinic was how Gemma was used by Lumon, was she pregnant? 
 

also the warrior pose she strikes is from her postcard. 
 

 

Edited Saturday at 02:10 PM by Affogato

[Kirbyrun]

On 2/28/2025 at 12:44 AM, arc said:

(Milchick must basically live at the office. It was 7:30 pm when Gemma made a break for it. ... I suppose it's possible her clock isn't aligned with outside time.)

I noticed he was wearing his leather bike jacket. I bet he was just about to go home when he got the call and was like, “Goddamnit, I just want to go home and get in the bath!”

[AstridM]

12 hours ago, aghst said:

Damon Lindelof, one of the show runners of Lost, theorized that Gemma died and Lumon cloned and Cold Harbor is going to fully restore her in the cloned body.

He’s aware that the Severance show runners said that it doesn’t have to do with clones but doesn’t believe them.

But he hadn’t seen this episode 7, which is mainly about Gemma.

Why would anyone care what that guy thinks about anything?

12 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I love that a show runner of Lost doesn’t trust show runners. 

Right? Who gives a fuck?

[Affogato]

Watchmen and the Leftovers are two of my favorite shows ever. I heard him on a twin peaks the return podcast and felt he watched tv for the same reasons I watch tv. So, I care. 

[AstridM]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Watchmen and the Leftovers are two of my favorite shows ever. I heard him on a twin peaks the return podcast and felt he watched tv for the same reasons I watch tv. So, I care. 

I tried watching the Leftovers and just couldn’t get into it. And I stayed miles away from Lost, thank fucking god. LOL. 

[Affogato]

7 minutes ago, AstridM said:

I tried watching the Leftovers and just couldn’t get into it. And I stayed miles away from Lost, thank fucking god. LOL. 

I’m guessing  you wouldn’t like Twin Peaks the Return, either.  
 

I wasn’t betrayed by Lost. I think the fan response did it in.
 

I’m less fond if JJAbrams, the only thing of his I have really liked was the casting of Karl Urban as Bones and ‘Super Eight’. But I don’t hate him. 

[overtherainbow]

This was the most unsettling episode of the show so far. They crossed the line from getting vulnerable people to undergo the procedure to kidnapping and imprisoning and experimenting on someone. 

Makes me wonder yet again, about the mammalian nurturable goat people and how they fit into this. 

[aghst]

One good thing about this episode is that it's a back story but they still advance the present day and main plot.

We see what Gemma is going through now and where Mark is in his reintegration as well as Mark coming close to completing Cold Harbor and his work being monitored.

When he completes Cold Harbor, something is going to happen to Gemma.

But they showed a lot about how they met, a sense of what their lives were like together.  Apparently from falling in love to getting alienated because in part they couldn't get pregnant.

[maddie965]

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/severance-recap-season-2-episode-7-gemma-testing-explained-1236324022/

Great interview with Dichen Lachmam/Gemma. It made me think terrible things, though. Maybe when the refiners are dealing with the numbers, they are deciding Gemma’s fate? Is Mark inadvertently causing her to suffer?

God, this show.

Edited Saturday at 09:46 PM by maddie965

[TeeVeeWatcher]

Two observations (for which I have no explanation).

Creepy heavy-set Lumon guy asked Robby Benson why he was wearing the ridiculous (holiday) sweater. I think it's his way of "flirting" with Emma in her Christmas Ring of Hell ... like he's making himself part of the experiment there in a "personal" way instead of in a "doctor" way.

Didn't the original sheep guy keep saying "they aren't ready" about the lambs he had? I wondered then and I wonder now, ready for what?!

[Affogato]

22 minutes ago, TeeVeeWatcher said:

Two observations (for which I have no explanation).

Creepy heavy-set Lumon guy asked Robby Benson why he was wearing the ridiculous (holiday) sweater. I think it's his way of "flirting" with Emma in her Christmas Ring of Hell ... like he's making himself part of the experiment there in a "personal" way instead of in a "doctor" way.

Didn't the original sheep guy keep saying "they aren't ready" about the lambs he had? I wondered then and I wonder now, ready for what?!

I think the goatherder had genuine affection for the goats,  he sounded defensive, indicating that what was in store wasn’t good. Sacrifice at wintertide? Maybe just experiments. 

Edited Saturday at 10:18 PM by Affogato

[JenE4]

I forgot to click the + while reading, but in response to whether Gemma was kidnapped by Lumen… I think she willingly signed up for it. She was obviously targeted by Lumen because of her tragic loss of at least one pregnancy and/or failed IVF (“third time’s a charm”). Lumen sent her the little puzzles in the mail that she thought were fun, testing whether she would be a good candidate for the experiment. Seems to me they convinced her what if we could take away the pain you feel over not being able to have a child by doing these fun little puzzles? Before trying to escape, she asked the doctor, “And then I’ll see Mark?” Granted, it seems like they perhaps kept her prisoner afterwards but she also didn’t seem too distraught and was compliant up until that point (“How many rooms today?”). She might have been saying goodbye to Mark for a little bit, not necessarily knowing this experiment would take 5 years! Though, it’s obviously a success by any measure, and the doctor is just holding onto her as long as he can because he’s fallen in love with her, putting himself in the role of the husband in the dystopian Christmas scene. Interesting that Gemma has several innies. Cold Harbor is a new door to her, and yet it’s the file that Mark has been working on. It’s the project that all on the Severed floor are watching. They brought back Mark’s coworkers so Mark would finish Cold Harbor. And it also seems to be the final experiment for Gemma that once she enters the Cold Harbor room and completes her cycle there, the doctor will have to let her go. Since the Cold Harbor room is almost ready AND Mark is 96% done with the Cold Harbor file, it seems pretty likely that refining the data is creating these experiential rooms. Gemma has made it through nonstop dental work, thank you notes from hell, and even a plane crash without remembering. What’s the absolute worst thing she could experience? Losing another child. Who’s the one person who knows exactly what Gemma’s emotions would be in that moment? Mark. I think Mark is basically reconstructing the experience of Gemma losing their child. They’ll put her through it, and if that doesn’t spark a memory or reintegration within the innie, well, then that’s some damn good quality control and there’s nothing that’s going to break it out in the real world.

[Lois Sandborne]

It hurt me seeing Adam Scott restored to his maximum wattage of hotness just by putting him in a normal haircut, only to return to the regular mop top in the present. Ouch.

I loved this episode. The direction was fantastic. The scene of Gemma running through the dark halls, all the beats of her perception changing between her regular life and her hideous Lumon life. It was super poignant and affecting. I wish for her though that she had simply kneed Milchick in the groin and run for her life when he was standing between her and the exit.

[aghst]

Yeah there is no way she signed up for  what is going on currently, which is to go through this routine, which involves multiple switch-flipping per day as she goes into what can only be called torture rooms every day.

No way she can legally consent to that, being unable to leave, unless this is some alternate reality with a different kind of legal system than the one we're suppose to have.

If they want to say this is not the US or it's alternate history, like that show where the Nazis win WWII and take over the US, well it's kind of too late to use that excuse.

 

[Affogato]

29 minutes ago, aghst said:

Yeah there is no way she signed up for  what is going on currently, which is to go through this routine, which involves multiple switch-flipping per day as she goes into what can only be called torture rooms every day.

No way she can legally consent to that, being unable to leave, unless this is some alternate reality with a different kind of legal system than the one we're suppose to have.

If they want to say this is not the US or it's alternate history, like that show where the Nazis win WWII and take over the US, well it's kind of too late to use that excuse.

 

I think that severance itself qualifies as at minimum indentured servitude and is questionable. 

[arc]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

No way she can legally consent to that, being unable to leave, unless this is some alternate reality with a different kind of legal system than the one we're suppose to have.

If they want to say this is not the US or it's alternate history, like that show where the Nazis win WWII and take over the US, well it's kind of too late to use that excuse.

I think the simplest theory is that Lumon is commiting crimes and that's the reason for the secrecy of the severed floor and the testing floor. But it also helps that this is a company town. I think Devon suggested in the S1 finale that the local police would be no help because Lumon controls the whole town. (And even has its grip on the whole state, to judge by the license plates.)

[aghst]

Milchick showed the Innies headlines which indicated the their OTC foray at the end of last season was positively received in the media.

So Lumon was supposed going to accommodate what they wanted, well really just Mark.

Maybe we can infer that media and political attention would have some bearing on what Lumon would do because they have to worry about how they're perceived, not just by the public but maybe law enforcement and the justice system, even if they dominate the one town.

[arc]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Milchick showed the Innies headlines which indicated the their OTC foray at the end of last season was positively received in the media.

He really only showed Mark that, back when he first thought he could get away with firing Dylan and Irving. And given everything that was revealed in episode 2x02 and since, I feel like we can assume the newspaper was entirely a hoax meant to placate Mark.

[seank941]

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think that severance itself qualifies as at minimum indentured servitude and is questionable. 

 

7 hours ago, arc said:

I think the simplest theory is that Lumon is commiting crimes and that's the reason for the secrecy of the severed floor and the testing floor. But it also helps that this is a company town. I think Devon suggested in the S1 finale that the local police would be no help because Lumon controls the whole town. (And even has its grip on the whole state, to judge by the license plates.)

As the audience it seems obvious to us because we follow the innies everyday, however in the world of the show it seems most people are like Helena. They either don't consider innies to be people, or they don't really think about it. So far severance has been completely voluntary, and Lumon is just product testing. Most companies have classified projects and perform confidential testing. If you don't think innies are real, all an outie does is step in a room and step back out. 

We don't know what Gemma's contract looks like, but maybe it says she has to fulfill the maximum duration before she can quit. It's a bad deal, but since nobody seems to read their contracts it might be what she bargained for.

All that said, I still think Lumon has a more nefarious agenda than just making money. Something has to keep the MDR characters together in the outie world and the severed floor.

[maddie965]

12 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I forgot to click the + while reading, but in response to whether Gemma was kidnapped by Lumen… I think she willingly signed up for it. She was obviously targeted by Lumen because of her tragic loss of at least one pregnancy and/or failed IVF (“third time’s a charm”). Lumen sent her the little puzzles in the mail that she thought were fun, testing whether she would be a good candidate for the experiment. Seems to me they convinced her what if we could take away the pain you feel over not being able to have a child by doing these fun little puzzles? Before trying to escape, she asked the doctor, “And then I’ll see Mark?” Granted, it seems like they perhaps kept her prisoner afterwards but she also didn’t seem too distraught and was compliant up until that point (“How many rooms today?”). She might have been saying goodbye to Mark for a little bit, not necessarily knowing this experiment would take 5 years! Though, it’s obviously a success by any measure, and the doctor is just holding onto her as long as he can because he’s fallen in love with her, putting himself in the role of the husband in the dystopian Christmas scene. Interesting that Gemma has several innies. Cold Harbor is a new door to her, and yet it’s the file that Mark has been working on. It’s the project that all on the Severed floor are watching. They brought back Mark’s coworkers so Mark would finish Cold Harbor. And it also seems to be the final experiment for Gemma that once she enters the Cold Harbor room and completes her cycle there, the doctor will have to let her go. Since the Cold Harbor room is almost ready AND Mark is 96% done with the Cold Harbor file, it seems pretty likely that refining the data is creating these experiential rooms. Gemma has made it through nonstop dental work, thank you notes from hell, and even a plane crash without remembering. What’s the absolute worst thing she could experience? Losing another child. Who’s the one person who knows exactly what Gemma’s emotions would be in that moment? Mark. I think Mark is basically reconstructing the experience of Gemma losing their child. They’ll put her through it, and if that doesn’t spark a memory or reintegration within the innie, well, then that’s some damn good quality control and there’s nothing that’s going to break it out in the real world.

This is brilliant. Thank you.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, seank941 said:

 

As the audience it seems obvious to us because we follow the innies everyday, however in the world of the show it seems most people are like Helena. They either don't consider innies to be people, or they don't really think about it. So far severance has been completely voluntary, and Lumon is just product testing. Most companies have classified projects and perform confidential testing. If you don't think innies are real, all an outie does is step in a room and step back out. 

We don't know what Gemma's contract looks like, but maybe it says she has to fulfill the maximum duration before she can quit. It's a bad deal, but since nobody seems to read their contracts it might be what she bargained for.

All that said, I still think Lumon has a more nefarious agenda than just making money. Something has to keep the MDR characters together in the outie world and the severed floor.

I was always taught that you cannot sign away your rights, as much as people would try to make you think you can.  You can disclose after an NDA, you just lose the benefits detailed in the contract. You cannot sign a contract to make yourself a slave. 
 

Are the outies signing their innies into slavery? If everyone has an in ie for dental work I suppose they won’t want to think about it  

Gemma seems to be herself mostly, does she imagine that Mark will take her back after this stunt? That would be a stretch. 
 

i suspect there is an honest religious undertone, witness Selvig. 

Edited Yest. at 12:28 PM by Affogato

[aghst]

Difference between Gemma and the other severed people is that they get to leave Lumon, possibly quit or get fired.

Milchick had to convince Mark to come back.

MIlchick fired Irv.

Gemma tried to leave but she couldn't because that chip warped her mind.  She isn't allowed to leave.

That is kidnapping or false imprisonment, at least in our legal system.

 

 

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Difference between Gemma and the other severed people is that they get to leave Lumon, possibly quit or get fired.

Milchick had to convince Mark to come back.

MIlchick fired Irv.

Gemma tried to leave but she couldn't because that chip warped her mind.  She isn't allowed to leave.

That is kidnapping or false imprisonment, at least in our legal system.

 

 

Yah. The innies do not have autonomy and choice. Helly, in particular, makes it clear. Her outie dresses her like a baby. She cannot quit. ( her outie can’t either, but she doesn’t know that.) severing creates a separate person. What are your responsibilities to that person? If you choose to quit they die. 

[ombre]

23 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Gemma has made it through nonstop dental work, thank you notes from hell, and even a plane crash without remembering. What’s the absolute worst thing she could experience? Losing another child.

This makes complete sense to me. It feels like they've had some rooms that were generic terrors (dentist, plane crash) and some that were tailored to her (thank you letters, where she also seemed to be closer to her true self, although that might be because the experience in the room was closer to reality). 

Ive got to say, the idea that people would simply trim out the parts of life they don't like or don't want is just so repugnant to me. The experiences that we can predict well enough to want to skip are often useful for learning to navigate our emotions in the stressful moments we can't predict. Spinning this all out, what would the world be if everybody on the outside had missed the formative experiences of getting through, for a minor example, visits to the dentist?  A silly example, maybe, but how many people would want to give up the first moments of seeing their child alive just to skip the pain of childbirth? What a weak tea version of life that would be. 

@Dev F thank you for correcting me. I re-watch Ed and yep, I'm obviously wrong about *everything* that was confusing me in the episode. That said, in addition to being fascinated at how much Devon and Gemma sound alike, I'm now floored at how much Dr Mauer looks like a young version of Fields. These casting choices feel particularly deliberate in a show that is so obsessed with doubles. 

 

Finally... Oh, those piles of books stacking up, disappearing, stacking up again. Too real, show. Too real! 

 

Extraordinary episode.