S05.E03: What Jesus Said

[Neurochick]

I just remembered the most disturbing part of this episode; the guy jerking off right in front of everybody, during the stripper's performance and Nucky had him thrown out.  Yuk.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Neurochick

[NutMeg]

That's to those who cleared up for me that the club was indeed in AC. I'm not usually this dumb, but the lack of otherwise AC action made me wonder if Nucky had moved elsewhere...

 

I guess I miss AC as a character.

 

In that vein, first time ever I was happy to see Micky Doyle. Yeah, at least an all timer who is still who he was in season 1!

 

Happy White's "buddy" is dead, because I understood less than half of what he said :-( I need me some close captions to watch this show STAT. Thanks to you all for explaining what happened (meaning of song, etc.) last episode, it completely flew over my head. 

[buttercupia]

 

 

Rothstein sold the policy to Nucky last season.

 

I had completely forgotten about that!

[Drogo]

 

Thanks to you all for explaining what happened (meaning of song, etc.) last episode, it completely flew over my head.

 

I thought you said you knew about telephones!

[NutMeg]

I thought you said you knew about telephones!

 

Good one, Drogo! I almost spilled my nice Sangiovese, thank you very much.

[ChipBach]

Happy White's "buddy" is dead, because I understood less than half of what he said :-( I need me some close captions to watch this show STAT. Thanks to you all for explaining what happened (meaning of song, etc.) last episode, it completely flew over my head. 

 

I agree with those who thought this was a waste of show-time.  I am not sure of how it had moved the plot along, developed Chalky's character, etc.  There is some much to tell in Chicago, why waste it on Chalky and "Buck"?

[terrymct]

Why was Chalky in jail for seven years? Have they explained that? Didn't last season end with Chalky heading back to Havre de Grace, MD? He has to still be in MD or PA in the general area of Baltimore, since the non-existent father was supposed to be at an auction in Chambersburg.

[Neurochick]

Has Chalky been in jail for seven years?  Has that been established?  Did anybody say he's been in jail for that long?

[Avaleigh]

Milton said Chalky had been digging ditches or whatever for the pass seven years. He said it when Chalky was trying to get the safe open and he was telling Chalky to put his back into it.

 

That's why I was wondering about how his family has fared all of this time and whether or not Narcisse has helped them out financially.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Fisher King]

Happy White's "buddy" is dead, because I understood less than half of what he said :-( I need me some close captions to watch this show STAT. Thanks to you all for explaining what happened (meaning of song, etc.) last episode, it completely flew over my head.

 

I just called him "Juber this, Juber that" on account of that song he sang in the first episode. Glad he's gone, in any case. I feared for the two women held in their home. Too much time was wasted on that scene IMO.

 

I'll be so glad when Chalky ultimately does get rid of Narcisse.

 

I do believe that was Tommy trying to get that job.

[lucindabelle]

It was very clear to me that Nucky wished he had done what Joe Kennedy did. I got that from his questions and talk of family, didn't need snow runners to tell me and haven't read that interview. JK is a family man with an extra source of cash.

I never hated Margaret before although I did think her signing over the land was out of character. I kind of hate her now. She's planning to play on his affections rather than maintain the honesty with which she rejected him, yuck, it's like the way she tried to bluff mrs Rothstein, I mean we've seen her act before when she got the fires from Nucky's office and I liked it then but it sure is rubbing me wrong now. What about the kids? And her borthers family?

Lying that she's not married seems incredibly stupid to me.

Agree at the episode feels slow. Didn't chalky kill the guy? Wasn't a thank you in order?

[Avaleigh]

It was very clear to me that Nucky wished he had done what Joe Kennedy did. I got that from his questions and talk of family, didn't need snow runners to tell me and haven't read that interview. JK is a family man with an extra source of cash.

I never hated Margaret before although I did think her signing over the land was out of character. I kind of hate her now. She's planning to play on his affections rather than maintain the honesty with which she rejected him, yuck, it's like the way she tried to bluff mrs Rothstein, I mean we've seen her act before when she got the fires from Nucky's office and I liked it then but it sure is rubbing me wrong now. What about the kids? And her borthers family?

Lying that she's not married seems incredibly stupid to me.

Agree at the episode feels slow. Didn't chalky kill the guy? Wasn't a thank you in order?

I don't see any reason why those women should have thanked Chalky for breaking into their home, terrorizing them, attempting to steal from them, and then turning on his accomplice after he saw things were about to get messier than he'd anticipated. . I'd say say getting a gun pulled on him and the request that he get the hell out of their house immediately was very appropriate under the circumstances and even generous all things considered.

The thing is Nucky could have had the family life but it didn't seem to be much of a priority to him. While I agree that he seems to want what Joe Kennedy has, I don't think this was necessarily apparent to Nucky until he'd seen Joe in action making the balance work. JK has the family, the money, the respectability, he can mix with legitimate businessmen and underworld types, his marriage is solid and his wife is willing to play the game and look the other way, and he's able to get away with fucking around with showgirls as Nucky enjoys doing.

Nucky could have had his own family but he chose to marry a woman he knew didn't want to have his kids. (Or maybe she didn't want any more kids; either way he was aware.) Mabel had been dead for years when season one started and Nucky was more or less content with the casual years long relationship that he'd established with Lucy. When Nucky did try to be a family man with Margaret, he gave up fairly early on and seemed bored to tears from the entire set up. Joe talks about how he sails with his sons and makes sure to get in time for bonding activities with his kids. When I think of Nucky spending time with Teddy and Emily, I chiefly remember Nucky taking Teddy on a little outing that turned thd kid into a wannabe pyro for awhile and some birthday party where IIRC he scared Emily and made her cry.

During the conversation that the two men were having I got the impression that Nucky would have preferred it if family hadn't been mentioned at all since it's something he's insecure about.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Neurochick]

Maybe Nucky just isn't the family type.  Nothing wrong with it; some people are, and some aren't.  In this society, people look down on the people who aren't.

 

I'd say say getting a gun pulled on him and the request that he get the hell out of their house immediately was very appropriate under the circumstances and even generous all things considered.

 

 

Plus, they told Chalky to take the $9, so he wasn't leaving empty handed.  

[lucindabelle]

Sure Nucky's life is a result of his actions but that doesn't mean he can't see someone else with the life he'd like and feel regrets. It happens all the time. I bought it, I've made choices that led me to where I am and if I had to do it again I'd do some things differently, I think he's someone who genuinely hoped things would work out.

Oh I know, chalky did participate in huge hold up but he didn't have to intervene the way he did, his pal could have killed or raped her. That's all I'm saying, he was pretty cutting when they told him he wasn't like his friend so it's not as it they had a right to expect him to save them... Yet he did, so I thought at that moment the stunned thank you would be more realistic than more accusation, but maybe not.

Eta: I never thought Nucky was bored with family life. He had obligations and wasn't always faithful but he loved those kids, not really unsure what went so wrong the second time... Something, obviously. Maybe when Margaret gave the land away?

Edited September 25, 2014 by lucindabelle

[Drogo]

We learned in Season 1 that Mabel killed herself after the death of their newborn, and that Nucky holds himself responsible because he knew she was severely depressed (the doctors warned him) yet neglected her for his work intentionally. I am not sure a guy with that monkey on his back wants to start a new family so fast, so he found dames like Lucy Danziger.

[lucindabelle]

Yes that makes sense but he also said to Margaret that his time with her and the kids was the happiest in his life.... Before she returned. The sad thing is I believe he still loves her while she intends to use him.

[jordanpond]

Random thoughts:

 

I don't think Margaret is attempting to charm her way back to Nucky to get him to help her out. Since they are still married, Nucky will be responsible for any of the debt Margaret can't cover. It won't be a matter of him helping her: he has no choice. I did, however, think he looked pleasantly surprised to see her; he still had that big smile even after he realized she wasn't Mabel. Interesting, too, that he still thinks of Emily and Teddy as his kids.

 

Interesting comments above re: the "Inside the Episode" features. I agree that anything the writers don't show in the episode doesn't count as "canon." I used to find them very informative, though, because sometimes they pointed out something that I missed or something I had forgotten from a previous episode. And sometimes they just added a little richness, for example, when they explained the origins of the episode title. "Acres of Diamonds" was one that stands out because it was actually the name of the speech all those Temple students were listening to on campus. You didn't need to know that to understand the epsiode, but it made it more interesting. Having said that, I find this season's "Inside the Episode" features very bland. In fact, when the producer talked about Nucky wanting to be like Joe Kennedy, that seemed more relevant to last week's epsiode when Nucky was giving that non-ending talk about Kennedy to his silent bodyguard. This episode seemed more about the reverse: Kennedy 's (hypocritical) disdain for Nucky. When he criticized Nucky for not having family pictures in his office, I thought, "Is that any worse than Kennedy having an office filled with pictures of a wife to whom he is unfaithful?"

 

I thought the Chalky/Milton story was way, way too long and drawn out. So in the beginning of epsiode 1, Milton looked a little goofy and inept, then we thought he was some really crafty guy who was merely playing the fool, only to discover in this episode he was indeed inept after all, spending most of the day being outsmarted at his own game by a terrified and unarmed 10th grader.  The introduction of his character into the final season seemed to take up way too much with very little payoff. 

 

I was surprised to see the incredibly egotistical Narcisse offer for Lucky and Benny to call him whatever they preferred. He is the only main character who has never asked someone to call him by his first name. I only wished they had gone ahead and called him "Valentin." They ended up not calling him anything. Well, ultimately, I guess they called him to attention. I think the reason that they killed the innocent employees rather than him was that they can now get the money they want from him if he's still alive. 

[TV Anonymous]

For those knowledgeable in history, what is the connection between GM and Shriners?

[RealityGal]

Random thoughts:

 

I don't think Margaret is attempting to charm her way back to Nucky to get him to help her out. Since they are still married, Nucky will be responsible for any of the debt Margaret can't cover. It won't be a matter of him helping her: he has no choice. I did, however, think he looked pleasantly surprised to see her; he still had that big smile even after he realized she wasn't Mabel. Interesting, too, that he still thinks of Emily and Teddy as his kids.

 

Interesting comments above re: the "Inside the Episode" features. I agree that anything the writers don't show in the episode doesn't count as "canon." I used to find them very informative, though, because sometimes they pointed out something that I missed or something I had forgotten from a previous episode. And sometimes they just added a little richness, for example, when they explained the origins of the episode title. "Acres of Diamonds" was one that stands out because it was actually the name of the speech all those Temple students were listening to on campus. You didn't need to know that to understand the epsiode, but it made it more interesting. Having said that, I find this season's "Inside the Episode" features very bland. In fact, when the producer talked about Nucky wanting to be like Joe Kennedy, that seemed more relevant to last week's epsiode when Nucky was giving that non-ending talk about Kennedy to his silent bodyguard. This episode seemed more about the reverse: Kennedy 's (hypocritical) disdain for Nucky. When he criticized Nucky for not having family pictures in his office, I thought, "Is that any worse than Kennedy having an office filled with pictures of a wife to whom he is unfaithful?"

 

I thought the Chalky/Milton story was way, way too long and drawn out. So in the beginning of epsiode 1, Milton looked a little goofy and inept, then we thought he was some really crafty guy who was merely playing the fool, only to discover in this episode he was indeed inept after all, spending most of the day being outsmarted at his own game by a terrified and unarmed 10th grader.  The introduction of his character into the final season seemed to take up way too much with very little payoff. 

 

I was surprised to see the incredibly egotistical Narcisse offer for Lucky and Benny to call him whatever they preferred. He is the only main character who has never asked someone to call him by his first name. I only wished they had gone ahead and called him "Valentin." They ended up not calling him anything. Well, ultimately, I guess they called him to attention. I think the reason that they killed the innocent employees rather than him was that they can now get the money they want from him if he's still alive. 

 

I actually appreciated the insight from the writers of the show.  Because I was wondering about the dynamic between Kennedy and Nucky.  Kennedy meets him, and with one word Nucky changes to a seltzer water.  Of course Kennedy's point was salient and well made, but the question to me was "is Nucky just trying to impress Kennedy to get him to invest?  Or did he see Kennedy's point and was embarrassed and so he changed his order to seltzer water?"  When, later at the club, Mickey tried to give them a drink, and Nucky sent it back in a huff, was it because he was trying to become more like Kennedy?  Was it because he wanted Kennedy to think that he was "drinking in" Kennedy's wisdom and had turned over a new leaf, was it because he was somewhat embarrassed because he looked up to Kennedy?  Is the dynamic between the two of them strictly business where Nucky is concerned, or is it something deeper.  The relationship between the two could have been explained so many different ways.  Nucky could have been trying to somehow play Kennedy, by making him think he was turning over a new leaf, and would thus be a good business partner for Kennedy.  At this point, he really seems to need Kennedy in Bacardi, so I can understand him pulling out all the stops.  But at the same time, given Kennedy's success, I could also see him sort of looking up to Kennedy as a role model.  That Nucky truly respects and admires Kennedy, and wishes he could have had the same life makes a lot of sense.

 

As for Margaret, I do think she wants his help.  Yes, he would be responsible for her debt.  But Margaret is about to be out of a job, if she isn't already.  Her firm is very worried about litigation by the widow Rothstien, and from what I could tell, they have no problem making Margaret the scape goat.  Now, she is probably about to lose her place to live as well, since either the Mrs. AR either owns the building or the government does.  So that means no more free rent.  No more free rent + no more job = a pretty bad time for her.  The minute Mrs. AR can show that Margaret did something financially odd....like signing the papers that her bosses brought up in her meeting, her goose is cooked.  But more importantly, legal issues aside, Margaret does not want her name, in the press, linked to Nucky's, and Mrs. AR has made it very clear that she would be okay doing that.  No matter if legally Nucky would owe her debt, once it gets to the point of a lawsuit, and becomes more public, Margaret becomes "wife of Enoch Thompson" and labelled in the same way Mrs. AR is by the press.  And so, she wants Nucky to help her pay back the money before it becomes a lawsuit.  And I'm sure...because its Margaret....that she would also like to act like a naggy shrew, guilt Nucky, and somehow get him to continue to fund her lifestyle.

 

As far as Emily and Teddy as his kids, he doesn't even really know how old they are, so I think that it might have been more that he was trying to impress Kennedy, who he knew was a family man.  I actually think he feels more like his nephew is his child.

Edited September 27, 2014 by RealityGal

[jordanpond]

Interesting points, RealityGal. You definitely pointed out some things I hadn't thought of --particulary how many things Nucky did do/say/change in response to what Joe did. I guess I was focused a lot more on Joe's hypocrisy at feeling so superior while admitting that he was a crook, too, just one that was better at using loopholes in the law. Good point, too, about Margaret facing unemployment. So I can see how she might have motivation to get additional monetary help from Nucky with respect to her future ability to provide for herself and her kids. I'll wait and see, though, as she did refuse any monetary help from him at the end of season three even though she was in pretty desperate circumstances, back to sleeping in the same bed with the kids in an apartment that didn't even have its own bathroom.  

 

Great post, though. You did a better job than the "Inside the Episode" segment at giving me some new insights and a new perspective for thinking about the episode!

[ganesh]

I think it was just because Nucky realized Kennedy was actually being serious, and Nucky was trying to be respectful for the sake of good business. 

[Avaleigh]

The main thing I took away from Nucky's decision to not drink while he was with Joe was that Nucky needs Joe a lot more than Joe needs Nucky so Nucky is in a position where he has to play by Joe's rules if he wants to partner up with him.

The other part of this decision seemed to be about proving that he indeed does not have a drinking problem. (Nucky obviously isn't Don Draper but I'm not entirely convinced that he isn't an alcoholic. ) He just seemed way too irritated about Joe's astute comment of "I'll leave you alone so that you can [finally] have [that] drink ." And of course Nucky did drink that evening, probably right after Joe left. He looked almost hungover in the scene at the end with Margaret and I got the impression that he'd passed out on the sofa and was in all likelihood probably too wasted to make it to his bedroom nevermind to change out of his clothes.

[ganesh]

He could have just fallen asleep too. It was a long day and Kennedy seems rather insufferable to me. I haven't seen Nucky not able to do his various jobs because of alcohol either. There's never been any particular meeting or deal he fucked up because he was drunk, like Don has. 

 

They do drink a lot on the show, but it's not like he's *always* got a drink in his hand. 

[Neurochick]

I think it was just because Nucky realized Kennedy was actually being serious, and Nucky was trying to be respectful for the sake of good business. 

 

I agree.  That's what a person will do if they want someone's business; you do what they're doing.  I saw it as Nucky thinking, "I don't want this guy to think I'm some kind of a lush; better have the seltzer."

[Avaleigh]

He could have just fallen asleep too. It was a long day and Kennedy seems rather insufferable to me. I haven't seen Nucky not able to do his various jobs because of alcohol either. There's never been any particular meeting or deal he fucked up because he was drunk, like Don has.

They do drink a lot on the show, but it's not like he's *always* got a drink in his hand.

I agree that it's possible he'd just fallen asleep. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced that he's on the level of someone like Don Draper but he *does* seem to drink a lot and I very well remember him coming home inebriated back when he and Margaret were still trying to make it work. He came home in wasted condition on multiple occasions to the point where even the servants noticed it. I just think it's entirely possible that he's a functioning alcoholic. Again though, I'm on the fence about this since they've made more of a thing about the drinking with a character like Eli. In the first season I actually thought there was a possibility that Eli was a mean drunk and that he and June actually didn't have a good relationship. They seemed like they decided to go in a different direction when it came to Eli's family life, but I do remember in the beginning that things seemed far from rosy in that particular marriage and that there were a couple of times where he seemed to be pretty harsh with her considering he's supposed to be this fairly devoted family man. 

 

It's interesting that in a show that is essentially about the Prohibition period, that there really isn't much of an examination of alcoholism when I compare it to a show like Mad Men or even The Sopranos. Even Gillian's addiction to heroin--it wasn't really about addiction or the consequences of a problem like that. It was touched on with a character like Hans Schroeder but in general the show hasn't really much dealt with issues of alcoholism and addiction.  (Just to be clear, I wouldn't have wanted more Temperance League scenes or anything like that but maybe some small subplot to show the flip side of the fun, boozy parties that are constantly featured on the show.) 

[RealityGal]

Interesting points, RealityGal. You definitely pointed out some things I hadn't thought of --particulary how many things Nucky did do/say/change in response to what Joe did. I guess I was focused a lot more on Joe's hypocrisy at feeling so superior while admitting that he was a crook, too, just one that was better at using loopholes in the law. Good point, too, about Margaret facing unemployment. So I can see how she might have motivation to get additional monetary help from Nucky with respect to her future ability to provide for herself and her kids. I'll wait and see, though, as she did refuse any monetary help from him at the end of season three even though she was in pretty desperate circumstances, back to sleeping in the same bed with the kids in an apartment that didn't even have its own bathroom.  

 

Great post, though. You did a better job than the "Inside the Episode" segment at giving me some new insights and a new perspective for thinking about the episode!

Awww shucks :)

[Pallas]

And of course Nucky did drink that evening, probably right after Joe left. He looked almost hungover in the scene at the end with Margaret and I got the impression that he'd passed out on the sofa and was in all likelihood probably too wasted to make it to his bedroom nevermind to change out of his clothes.

 

Absolutely, he had passed out on the sofa, which suggests he was then hungover.  Given that we saw the flashback about Mabel's departure, immediately followed by Nucky's waking up in the present to question if Margaret were Mabel, I wonder if all Nucky's flashbacks are connected to (less coherent) dreams he is experiencing. Especially, when he is under stress he is dousing with booze.    

 

ETA: more evidence that No. 9 is really Tommy Darmody: the scene where the boy is introduced immediately follows Nucky's grudging admission to Kennedy that he "wants to leave something behind."  

Edited September 28, 2014 by Pallas

[lucindabelle]

Interesting idea re Nucky's drinking... I suspect he just drinks a lot more than were used to seeing these days, I.e., a cocktail during cocktail hour...but occasionally he overdoes it, which, at his age, he really ogu to stop.

Much as I now no longer love Margaret, for me the show becomes more interesting whenever she's on, probably due to the actress and how buscemi conveys so much emotion toward her. Looking forward to tonight.

[Avaleigh]

Nice observations, Pallas. I really like the idea that the flashbacks are all dreams of Nucky's and that he's actually been contemplating how exactly it is that that he's done everything that he's done but somehow he's still that lonely boy underneath it all.

I'd like to think that Margaret could be a comfort to him and vice versa but so far that doesn't appear to be in the cards.

The age isn't quite right but I agree that the kid has to be Tommy. I can't see why they'd spend so much time setting up the scene otherwise plus I don't think young Teddy would try to claim that he was from a farm. If it is Tommy I wonder if his relationship with Julia is good or not. I realize times are tough but fifteen seems like a pretty young age to go off on one's own especially since times are tough they'd likely need his help more than ever. Maybe Richard's sister died?

[ganesh]

Absolutely, he had passed out on the sofa, which suggests he was then hungover.

 

I'm not trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, but falling asleep on a couch after having a glass of whisky doesn't = hangover. Kennedy was talking about family this and family that and called out Nucky on not being a 'family man'. The scene could have been underscoring the point in that Nucky just falls asleep wherever because he doesn't have a family to go home to. I actually think this is the more likely intent of the scene since it came directly after that conversation. 

[Sader87]

3 years later (finally watching the last season)....loved how Joe Kennedy ordered a "tonic" which is Boston for soda and/or Coke. Very authentic touch.