Chit-Chat: The Feels

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I picture the person running the White House X account as a 22 year old male incel, graduate of some fundie institution like Patrick Henry. The "humor" does ring juvenile. 

I don’t follow that one. 
Is it “@WhiteHouse”? 
If so, yikes! 
Pretty bonkers and unfunny.

[Spartan Girl]

What a way to start a Sunday. I open my local paper and there’s a big article interviewing a bunch of Michigan (my state) voters about how they feel about Trump’s first 100 days. The majority of them are Republicans, and they range from “mildly concerned” to so deep in lala land that it’s sickening.

Then there’s this delightful op-ed from a Texas “boy mom” that blames progressives for how they treat boys. Read at your own risk.

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I picture the person running the White House X account as a 22 year old male incel, graduate of some fundie institution like Patrick Henry. The "humor" does ring juvenile. 

I think they are appeasing Donald. And the Pope outfit is horrible on every level. 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

What a way to start a Sunday. I open my local paper and there’s a big article interviewing a bunch of Michigan (my state) voters about how they feel about Trump’s first 100 days. The majority of them are Republicans, and they range from “mildly concerned” to so deep in lala land that it’s sickening.

Then there’s this delightful op-ed from a Texas “boy mom” that blames progressives for how they treat boys. Read at your own risk.

Do you have children, particularly male children?  The truth is, boys have long been neglected.  And it’s not because of so-called “progressives.”  It’s culture, period.  We’ve made wavelengths as women/girls, going from a world where we were expected to be wives, couldn’t vote, couldn’t hold credit cards or bank accounts in our own names or, in my ancestral culture, needing to have bound feed (if you were middle or upper class, anyway) and having to deal with your husband’s concubines (if you were lucky to be the main wife) to a world where we (technically speaking) could do anything we want (within reason).  I was my son’s age in the 80s.  I went bug hunting just like he does now (especially with weather warming up).  I wanted to be a doctor as a child and no one said I could only be a nurse.  And most importantly, I was allowed to cry.  Boys?  Well, don’t bother allowing them to show emotion.  They have more trouble expressing how they feel.  My son even has trouble telling me if he’s still hungry and wants more food at times.  And in general, guys are less likely to see a therapist than women are. 
 

piece on men and mental health: https://cmhato.org/understanding-mental-health/mens-mental-health/

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Then there’s this delightful op-ed from a Texas “boy mom” that blames progressives for how they treat boys. Read at your own risk.

This may not be a popular opinion, but this is one of those subjects on which I think Democrats/Progressives have a messaging problem. If this is not the message they want to send to men and boys, then they need to do something to convince them otherwise. I don't think it's fair to blame the men and boys for getting the wrong impression and rebelling against that impression. What the average person today hears may not be what is intended for them to hear. If they do get the wrong impression the people sending the message need to first try to understand that audience and then tailor the message to that audience. Note that I think Trump, MAGA and Republicans have done this and that's why they're attracting more young men all the time. Only they take it to an opposite extreme that isn't right either.

And while I wouldn't call this anything near a "war on boys", if they are getting that impression I don't blame them. Nobody wants to feel like they are being told they are wrong for being who they are. If that's not the message that Progressives want to send, they'd better learn how it's affecting the people on the receiving end and change it rather than dig in their heels and just blame them for their response.

We shouldn't see the answer for men as being between the extremes of brute and (excuse the word) "*imp". I've said this before but the concept of being a gentleman is completely lost in our modern society and not even held by Conservatives anymore. Now they accept selfish, nasty, brutish, racist misogynists as OK. But that's not OK either. You can be a lot of manly things and still respect women and other people as equals, and that's what being a gentleman is all about. Manners, respect, ethics, it's all in there. That's all you need to teach. You don't need to impress upon them how wrong men (aka them) have been for centuries and make them feel bad about themselves to accomplish that. The concept of the gentleman has existed for a very long time and won't offend men if taught in the right way. But a lot of people these days have forgotten or are ignorant of that history. 

[bluegirl147]

When my son was in 1st grade they asked me to have him tested for ADD. Why?  Because he talked in class. I had him tested and he was borderline.  They wanted him on meds and I refused.   He wasn't disruptive and his classwork was fine. By the way he is still a talker.  It's genetic.  My mother's side of the family are all well known talkers.  Back to my point which is I don't think his teacher targeted him because he was a boy.  

Boys aren't sent home because they are a wearing a shirt that shows a bra strap. Boys aren't taught to stay in groups so they are less likely to be in danger.  Boys aren't told to not leave their drinks unattended. 

There are various reasons why young men are becoming conservative and I can't help but wonder if it's because some of them were raised to think it's a man's world and are peeved to find out some people are pushing back on that.

My uncle who was in 80s died a couple weeks ago. He had been married for over 50 yrs and everything was in his name only. His wife was told he was the man of the house and it was going to be that way.  How many men want it to be that way again?

@Yeah No I don't think it's Democrats/Progressives message that men are second class citizens. Whereas the Republican party does in fact have an agenda that treats women as second class citizens.

[Yeah No]

9 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

@Yeah No I don't think it's Democrats/Progressives message that men are second class citizens. Whereas the Republican party does in fact have an agenda that treats women as second class citizens.

I thought I made this pretty clear in my post, but that's not what I said. I didn't say that the intention was to make them feel like second class citizens or like there's something wrong with them for being men. I actually don't think it is, it's just being conveyed in a way that unfortunately can give that impression. What I said that if boys and men are getting that impression the message should be changed so that they don't. What is it about the message that can be modified to not do that? That's what needs to be addressed.

[bluegirl147]

I think the message that we as a society need to be more inclusive and equal is misinterpreted by some as some groups are going to be marginalized.  Like white people and hetero males.  The reason why DEI policies are being rolled back is because those two groups feel like they are being pushed to the back of the line.

@Yeah No I'm obviously not saying this applies to all white people or hetero males but in my experience I've met  plenty of those who truly believe they are victims and aren't in a better position in their life because some "other" who didn't deserve it got what should have been theirs.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m reminded of the episode “Pack” from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Xander falls under a spell and starts acting like a rude(er) jerk, disrespecting both Buffy and Willow. Buffy, thinking something is up, goes to Giles, who proceeds to rolls his eyes and say, “Congratulations, he’s acting like a typical teenage boy.” Like boys acting like jerks is normal. It’s only when Xander tries to rape Buffy and his new buddies eat the school mascot that Giles takes things seriously. And even then Giles agrees to go along with Xander pretending to have post spell amnesia so he won’t have to apologize to Buffy and Willow, or acknowledge what he almost did under the influence.

Circling back to the op-ed, maybe her son acting like a jerk in class wasn’t a big deal, but it wouldn’t hurt for the author to gently tell her son to be more respectful and not interrupt his classmates instead of acting like the teacher and all the women she’s railing against are being too “sensitive.”

[Dimity]

Just another way of minimizing women's achievements by holding them accountable for men's failings.  I saw a meme the other day that said that the right are turning against higher education because now more women then men are attending, and graduating from college,  so naturally (to them) that means it's not worthwhile anymore.

I think there is some truth to that.  Look at how as soon as a profession becomes female dominated it becomes lesser than. 

In a not unrelated way, this quote from Jasmine Crockett resonates with me:

 

[Yeah No]

11 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I saw a meme the other day that said that the right are turning against higher education because now more women then men are attending, and graduating from college,  so naturally (to them) that means it's not worthwhile anymore.

I think there is some truth to that.  Look at how as soon as a profession becomes female dominated it becomes lesser than. 

In a not unrelated way, this quote from Jasmine Crockett resonates with me:

 

This is what happens when people with grudges to work off use the internet to pit people against each other for their own gain. In the end  nobody wins. In fact, we all lose. The Right will end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces, but that's what we have with Trump and MAGA. And he doesn't care what they do to themselves and the rest of us as long as he gets to work off his bottomless pit of grudges.

I love that quote, BTW. So very sad but so very true.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’m reminded of the episode “Pack” from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Xander falls under a spell and starts acting like a rude(er) jerk, disrespecting both Buffy and Willow. Buffy, thinking something is up, goes to Giles, who proceeds to rolls his eyes and say, “Congratulations, he’s acting like a typical teenage boy.” Like boys acting like jerks is normal. It’s only when Xander tries to rape Buffy and his new buddies eat the school mascot that Giles takes things seriously. And even then Giles agrees to go along with Xander pretending to have post spell amnesia so he won’t have to apologize to Buffy and Willow, or acknowledge what he almost did under the influence.

Circling back to the op-ed, maybe her son acting like a jerk in class wasn’t a big deal, but it wouldn’t hurt for the author to gently tell her son to be more respectful and not interrupt his classmates instead of acting like the teacher and all the women she’s railing against are being too “sensitive.”

Pursuant of the general theme of this discussion, gosh, Xander gets no slack from you. He is depicted as a guy who came from a difficult background trying to be a better guy. It takes a lot of vulnerability to talk about how he was overtaken and mind raped, too.  He doesn’t want to lose his friends or face it directly. A human response.  But in Buffy women are not always the heroes or men the villains. It is one of the good things about it. 
 

Stories are better when the characters are believable. They don’t have to be good, or perfect, or have happy endings. 

Edited Sunday at 03:25 PM by Affogato

[Affogato]

The problem is not that men as a group may have issues. The problem is trying to find ways to make themselves feel better at the expense of others. 

[bluegirl147]

Jasmine Crockett is right and as with most bad things I blame social media.  Social media has put on display how people are doing in life.  The good and bad.  People not doing well see people who are doing well and resent them. People doing well see those not doing well and instead of feeling empathy they mock them.  There is something broken in society not just here but around the world and I don't know if it can be fixed.  I mean Trump and his goons deported a child with cancer.

9 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The problem is not that men as a group may have issues. The problem is trying to find ways to make themselves feel better at the expense of others. 

Yes it's not the action that is the problem but the reaction.

[Yeah No]

10 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The problem is not that men as a group may have issues. The problem is trying to find ways to make themselves feel better at the expense of others. 

That's what happens when forces like MAGA and all the misogynist voices out there get ahold of men and convince them that they're victims that need to get even with women and dominate them to feel better about themselves. I don't believe most of those men would be that way if not for the brainwashing. 

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

This may not be a popular opinion, but this is one of those subjects on which I think Democrats/Progressives have a messaging problem. If this is not the message they want to send to men and boys, then they need to do something to convince them otherwise. I don't think it's fair to blame the men and boys for getting the wrong impression and rebelling against that impression. What the average person today hears may not be what is intended for them to hear. If they do get the wrong impression the people sending the message need to first try to understand that audience and then tailor the message to that audience. Note that I think Trump, MAGA and Republicans have done this and that's why they're attracting more young men all the time. Only they take it to an opposite extreme that isn't right either.

And while I wouldn't call this anything near a "war on boys", if they are getting that impression I don't blame them. Nobody wants to feel like they are being told they are wrong for being who they are. If that's not the message that Progressives want to send, they'd better learn how it's affecting the people on the receiving end and change it rather than dig in their heels and just blame them for their response.

We shouldn't see the answer for men as being between the extremes of brute and (excuse the word) "*imp". I've said this before but the concept of being a gentleman is completely lost in our modern society and not even held by Conservatives anymore. Now they accept selfish, nasty, brutish, racist misogynists as OK. But that's not OK either. You can be a lot of manly things and still respect women and other people as equals, and that's what being a gentleman is all about. Manners, respect, ethics, it's all in there. That's all you need to teach. You don't need to impress upon them how wrong men (aka them) have been for centuries and make them feel bad about themselves to accomplish that. The concept of the gentleman has existed for a very long time and won't offend men if taught in the right way. But a lot of people these days have forgotten or are ignorant of that history. 

 

Manners have disappeared, especially since the pandemic.  Sure, there were people who texted while walking, texted in front of entrances or were on speaker in 2019, but I feel it’s become worse after.  Young people are dressing more like slobs, too.  School uniform used to be very strict, even for the very young, but they don’t seem to care as much anymore.  The older kids, yes, but those my son’s age?  Not so much.  Kids should be comfortable in school, but they’re also representing the school when they’re in public and it not only includes behaviour but appearance as well.  But maybe it’s just the private school girl/Old Girl/alumna in me.  The whole “representing your school” thing is drilled into you so frequently that you more or less never forget. 

[Affogato]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Manners have disappeared, especially since the pandemic.  Sure, there were people who texted while walking, texted in front of entrances or were on speaker in 2019, but I feel it’s become worse after.  Young people are dressing more like slobs, too.  School uniform used to be very strict, even for the very young, but they don’t seem to care as much anymore.  The older kids, yes, but those my son’s age?  Not so much.  Kids should be comfortable in school, but they’re also representing the school when they’re in public and it not only includes behaviour but appearance as well.  But maybe it’s just the private school girl/Old Girl/alumna in me.  The whole “representing your school” thing is drilled into you so frequently that you more or less never forget. 

Huh? I remember the sixties. Didn’t we get rid of that uniform stuff. Backlash, you say?  

[PRgal]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Huh? I remember the sixties. Didn’t we get rid of that uniform stuff. Backlash, you say?  

Not every school got rid of uniforms and some schools today aren’t enforcing rules for younger kids.  In the 90s when we were not dressed properly, teachers would tell us

[peacheslatour]

37 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

That's what happens when forces like MAGA and all the misogynist voices out there get ahold of men and convince them that they're victims that need to get even with women and dominate them to feel better about themselves. I don't believe most of those men would be that way if not for the brainwashing. 

Especially if they get them while they're young, vulnerable and feeling isolated. It doesn't matter if it's the Andrew Tates of the world or ISIS. If they get them when they are young and impressionable, it's easy to convince them that they're special misunderstood good guys who deserve super model virgin fuck maids and any "female" who resists that notion is the enemy. They want trad wives without the onus of being trad husbands.

[Affogato]

35 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Not every school got rid of uniforms and some schools today aren’t enforcing rules for younger kids.  In the 90s when we were not dressed properly, teachers would tell us

In the sixties I moved from midwest us to canada. The public school in Toronto had uniforms but no one wore them. I don’t remember a lot of issues, although that means no one came in pasties. 
 

in the previous US school we got a lot of lip from the principle, boys wearing beads!, but the superintendant of schools stopped him.  Daughter went to our school. 

Edited Sunday at 04:56 PM by Affogato

[PRgal]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

In the sixties I moved from midwest us to canada. The public school in Toronto had uniforms but no one wore them. I don’t remember a lot of issues, although that means no one came in pasties. 
 

in the previous US school we got a lot of lip from the principle, boys wearing beads!, but the superintendant of schools stopped him.  Daughter went to our school. 

Private middle and high school and the school had kids from kindergarten on.  I didn’t have uniforms in elementary school but desperately wanted to be at a school that had one!  I also resisted the more “comfortable” clothes my grandmother forced me into.  I had no say.  Poh Poh was seriously toxic.  But as you probably know, it’s disrespectful for me to really say anything to family members (because I’m speaking ill of the dead).  So I’ll do so here and with my therapist.

[bluegirl147]

15 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Especially if they get them while they're young, vulnerable and feeling isolated. It doesn't matter if it's the Andrew Tates of the world or ISIS. If they get them when they are young and impressionable, it's easy to convince them that they're special misunderstood good guys who deserve super model virgin fuck maids and any "female" who resists that notion is the enemy. They want trad wives without the onus of being trad husbands.

A big problem is people like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson and before them Rush Limbaugh is the left doesn't really have an equivalent to them. Their message as vile as it is reaches young men with very little alternative for those young men to hear.  It's crazy to me some people still consider Bill Maher as a voice for the left.  Isn't their a man born in this century that can speak to young men about progressive issues?

46 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Manners have disappeared, especially since the pandemic.  Sure, there were people who texted while walking, texted in front of entrances or were on speaker in 2019, but I feel it’s become worse after.  Young people are dressing more like slobs, too.  School uniform used to be very strict, even for the very young, but they don’t seem to care as much anymore.  The older kids, yes, but those my son’s age?  Not so much.  Kids should be comfortable in school, but they’re also representing the school when they’re in public and it not only includes behaviour but appearance as well.  But maybe it’s just the private school girl/Old Girl/alumna in me.  The whole “representing your school” thing is drilled into you so frequently that you more or less never forget. 

Do not get me started on how young people dress.  Slobs doesn't even begin to describe it. I get not wanting to put too much emphasis on how you look but looking at my soon to be teenage granddaughter it's like they mismatch colors and sizes on purpose.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

That's what happens when forces like MAGA and all the misogynist voices out there get ahold of men and convince them that they're victims that need to get even with women and dominate them to feel better about themselves. I don't believe most of those men would be that way if not for the brainwashing. 

And a lot if times it ends with violence. Were any of the mass shooters during the past 10 years married or even in a relationship? These men are being told if you want something take it and if you can't get it blame someone else. 

[Dimity]

14 minutes ago, Affogato said:

In the sixties I moved from midwest us to canada. The public school in Toronto had uniforms but no one wore them.

I moved from the US to Montreal and the school we went to had uniforms for the girls but not for the boys.  Should have known even then that life was one damn big double standard!  Anyway I was living for grade 7 when we could exchange our tunics for grey skirts and a blazer and didn't they go and abolish uniforms over the summer.  Dammit.

4 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Do not get me started on how young people dress.  Slobs doesn't even begin to describe it. I get not wanting to put too much emphasis on how you look but looking at my soon to be teenage granddaughter it's like they mismatch colors and sizes on purpose.

How young is young?  Because I cannot believe the number of adults I see out and about wearing pajamas.  If kids are slobs (and they are) they're not alone that's for sure!

Edited Sunday at 05:08 PM by Dimity

[Cementhead]

55 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Manners have disappeared, especially since the pandemic.  Sure, there were people who texted while walking, texted in front of entrances or were on speaker in 2019, but I feel it’s become worse after.  

100% in agreement!  People forgot how to act as a society during Covid and basic social norms were lost and haven't returned. 

One of the good things that happened during Covid was that people stopped standing on top of each other in lines and gave each other proper space.  I was so hoping that it would stick around permanently afterwards but sadly, it did not.  People are back to standing so close to me in the grocery store line that I can feel them breathe.

6 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Do not get me started on how young people dress.  Slobs doesn't even begin to describe it. I get not wanting to put too much emphasis on how you look but looking at my soon to be teenage granddaughter it's like they mismatch colors and sizes on purpose.

Slippers & pajama bottoms are the norm in my neck of the woods.  All year long.  And wearing slippers apparently prevents them from walking properly or it's too much work to lift their feet up because they all just drag them across the floor.

[PRgal]

29 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I moved from the US to Montreal and the school we went to had uniforms for the girls but not for the boys.  Should have known even then that life was one damn big double standard!  Anyway I was living for grade 7 when we could exchange our tunics for grey skirts and a blazer and didn't they go and abolish uniforms over the summer.  Dammit.

How young is young?  Because I cannot believe the number of adults I see out and about wearing pajamas.  If kids are slobs (and they are) they're not alone that's for sure!

That’s weird, but that’s Quebec for ya.  The Catholic schools here (Toronto) started enforcing a dress code/uniform for elementary grades in the last 20 years or so, but unlike high schools, could get their clothes anywhere - as long as the tops were white or dark blue and the bottoms were dark blue.  No denim.

 

https://www.tcdsb.org/page/dress-code

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

100% in agreement!  People forgot how to act as a society during Covid and basic social norms were lost and haven't returned. 

One of the good things that happened during Covid was that people stopped standing on top of each other in lines and gave each other proper space.  I was so hoping that it would stick around permanently afterwards but sadly, it did not.  People are back to standing so close to me in the grocery store line that I can feel them breathe.

Slippers & pajama bottoms are the norm in my neck of the woods.  All year long.  And wearing slippers apparently prevents them from walking properly or it's too much work to lift their feet up because they all just drag them across the floor.

The slippers and pjs are funny. 

Young people! Get off my lawn!

LOL

Edited Sunday at 05:47 PM by Affogato

[Kemper]

 I think that social media and  the "bro podcasters" can do such damage to young people and those who feel "not seen". It can give them a negative outlook on life in general. Plus there is the bombardment of bad news seemingly every minute of every day. Many people, especially young ones, end up tuning out. Hunching down and living in their own world. And that can be a very dark place to be. 

 

Edited Sunday at 06:09 PM by Kemper

[peacheslatour]

8 minutes ago, Kemper said:

 I think that social media and  the "bro podcasters" can do such damage to young people and those who feel "not seen". It can give them a negative outlook on life in general. Plus there is the bombardment of bad news seemingly every minute of every day. Many people, especially young ones, end up tuning out. Hunching down and living in their own world. And that can be a very dark place to be. 

 

My son told me that he very easily could have gone the way of the incel except for two things, he had a tight group of friends, many of them girls who took no shit. And there was a website he joined called Something Awful, which was mainly a humor site but they had a large forum community that was very no nonsense and would knock any pretense out of the most vocal red pill types.

[Spartan Girl]

 

[peacheslatour]

21 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

And nobody needs to ask what this is in reference to.

[tres bien]

LOL Trump must be scared of Jasmine Crockett

Apprearing on NBC’s Meet the Press today in a taped interview Trump says she’s a low IQ person 

[Dimity]

Quote

Poilievre's by-election will cost over a million dollars. All so he can remain in his taxpayer-funded mansion, with his taxpayer-funded lifestyle he has had for his entire adult life.

Biggest trough-feeder in the country pretending he cares about the little guy is yet another way Poilievre is just like Trump.

My nephew copied this on FB and my Maple Maga sister just about lost her mind.  Basically wrote a 2 page rebuttal that came down, essentially, to "I can't hear you, la la la..."

It's so discouraging that so many here have been watching what is happening in the US and are shocked and horrified, and yet they can't seem to make the connection - the very obvious connection - between what Trump is saying and doing and what Poilievre is saying and wants to do.

I know chocolate isn't the solution but it's helping

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, Dimity said:

My nephew copied this on FB and my Maple Maga sister just about lost her mind.  Basically wrote a 2 page rebuttal that came down, essentially, to "I can't hear you, la la la..."

It's so discouraging that so many here have been watching what is happening in the US and are shocked and horrified, and yet they can't seem to make the connection - the very obvious connection - between what Trump is saying and doing and what Poilievre is saying and wants to do.

I know chocolate isn't the solution but it's helping

Lol, I made double chocolate chip brownies yesterday. It does help a bit.

[Dimity]

11 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Lol, I made double chocolate chip brownies yesterday. It does help a bit.

Family size (hah) bars of Cadbury have been on sale at our local grocery for a few weeks now.  I may or may not have purchased most of their stock...

[kittykat]

I've definitely noticed the toxic podcast culture particularly Tate, Kirk, Peterson, Walsh. They're seriously indoctrinating these guys at a young age to a certain level of entitlement that women should just fall over at the idea of receiving attention from their beloved selves.  

And of course there are plenty of men out there fighting that and have a progressive view towards gender and that's a good thing. But then the right weaponizes that and uses words like "soft" or even worse "p**sy" or "emasculate" to further the divide.  They use generalizations like "when men were men" or "boys will be boys" to excuse inappropriate or even predatory behavior.

I don't think the left needs to change their views on how they portray men.  All our message has been is that one demographic isn't the end all be all of society; that everyone deserves to be treated equal and given the same opportunities.  The right spins that into "the left are man-hating" so of course fragile minds are going to latch onto that. I don't how to open up a discourse on this though.  It's a tough line to walk.  If the left starts messaging towards young white men in order to lure back their votes they need to do it in a way that doesn't look like they're throwing women, POC or LGBTQ+ under the bus or abandoning their causes to placate another.  We need to find a message that somehow communicates that we're all in this together.

[JustHereForFood]

Just my 2 cents, I agree that there is a problem with how men and especially boys are feeling left out, but it's as if the responsibility somehow falls on women to solve it. Why are we expected to do the emotional heavy lifting for both men and women? There are still plenty of issues that women face. Yes, it's a lot better than it was, especially in the western world, but women are still way more likely to be hurt because of their sex than men. And don't get me started on the conditions women face in several non-western countries. Who's gonna help them? Why are so many progressives, including women, willing to completely abandon women in Sudan, Afghanistan or Iran and instead go on and on about the mental health of men living in relatively great conditions? It can't be just the fear that so many progressives have of being called racist the second they rightfully criticize a non-white (by the US standards) country. Why should the priority for feminists be helping men before helping all women? 

Yes, the progress that was made for women rights is in part thanks to some men who helped, but the majority of it was done by women. Similarly, I think, if men want to better their situation by getting rid of toxic masculinity (because that is in large part the cause, IMO), well, they also need to be the ones leading the change, with women supporting them. Not the other way around. If men want the supposed benefits that women have, like being allowed to cry without being judged for it, then they also need to do the "women's" work that is often underappreciated, like organize that movement and be willing to receive no thanks for it, only the ugly comments.

2 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

A big problem is people like Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson and before them Rush Limbaugh is the left doesn't really have an equivalent to them. Their message as vile as it is reaches young men with very little alternative for those young men to hear.  It's crazy to me some people still consider Bill Maher as a voice for the left.  Isn't their a man born in this century that can speak to young men about progressive issues?

 

And when there are, they are just as bad and misogynistic as the right-wingers.

And it's not like there's not enough good male role models. Why doesn't someone from the MCU actors for example step up and use the market opportunity? There are many characters in fiction that can be used as good examples of non-toxic, healthy masculinity, and if we can't count on the boys' ability to connect to those, then it's an opportunity for the actors to start a side-job as influencers to counter the popular toxic narratives (not kidding, to be clear, I'm serious about this).

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Then there’s this delightful op-ed from a Texas “boy mom” that blames progressives for how they treat boys. Read at your own risk.

That's a hard pass for me; too much risk my eyes would get stuck in rolled position.

[PRgal]

Here's an article from today's Toronto Star on the boy issue.  And about the kid who said he didn't feel like he had "White privilege." hI think we ignore the fact that there IS indeed a difference between immigrants and non-immigrants and to be perfectly fair, the most privileged would be White ANGLO-PROTESTANT, multi-generational middle/upper middle class STRAIGHT CISGENDER males.  And even then, if then, if they have any kind of disability, whether hidden or not, well, that doesn't give them full privilege either.  And yeah, some White guys might see me (Asian, child of immigrants, first generation Anglophone, female and neurodivergent) as being more "privileged" than they are due to class and education.  

Also, it's important that males speak up AND ARE LISTENED TO rather than dismissed (and they often are, so they give up).  Trust me, I know ALL ABOUT being dismissed for being "too privileged."  Yeah, my voice as a child of immigrants doesn't matter because my story doesn't fit the victimized narrative that many in the left want to hear (I see this HERE too, and I find this a safe(r) space).  

[Dimity]

31 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Just my 2 cents, I agree that there is a problem with how men and especially boys are feeling left out, but it's as if the responsibility somehow falls on women to solve it. Why are we expected to do the emotional heavy lifting for both men and women?

I had a work colleague 30 years ago who called this "what about the mens".  No matter what was under discussion with regard to women someone could be guaranteed to say "well sure, but men..."  It was maddening enough then, now it's 100 times worse.

[kittykat]

30 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

it's not like there's not enough good male role models. Why doesn't someone from the MCU actors for example step up and use the market opportunity

Sadly I wouldn't hold you breath there.  The MCU males all stood up for Chris Pratt when his backlash began but remained silent when fans started hate-bombing on Brie Larson, only Don Cheadle spoke up if memory serves correctly. 

[bluegirl147]

26 minutes ago, kittykat said:

Sadly I wouldn't hold you breath there.  The MCU males all stood up for Chris Pratt when his backlash began but remained silent when fans started hate-bombing on Brie Larson, only Don Cheadle spoke up if memory serves correctly. 

Also there are so many celebs that don't want to alienate any movie fans.  To paraphrase Michael Jordan conservatives buy movie tickets too. 

28 minutes ago, Dimity said:

I had a work colleague 30 years ago who called this "what about the mens".  No matter what was under discussion with regard to women someone could be guaranteed to say "well sure, but men..."  It was maddening enough then, now it's 100 times worse.

All these DEI rollbacks are just a new version of I will hire the man because he has a family to support. Men are always given priority.  I work for a pest control company and I have seen videos of sales techniques that still prioritize talking to the man of the house.  And I can't count the times how many wives call us after their husband dies not knowing anything about their account because their husband took care of all that.

 

[PRgal]

Sometimes, I feel like I live in a very different world compared to the majority of you (including my fellow Canadians).  Just thought I wanted to say this (probably for the millionth time) and you guys don’t seem to understand, even though I’m trying hard to understand you. 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

I saw that Trump posted a muscle-bound picture of himself with a lightsaber. Okay, Darth Vader. 

https://variety.com/2025/film/news/ai-generated-image-trump-buff-jedi-star-wars-day-1236386522/

They can't leave anything alone. 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-star-wars-may-fourth-memes-1235331075/

[Bastet]

17 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

And now, a word from the White House.

3 minutes ago, Anela said:

I saw that Trump posted a muscle-bound picture of himself with a lightsaber. Okay, Darth Vader.

But when Obama wore a tan suit, that was "unpresidential". 

[peacheslatour]

44 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Also there are so many celebs that don't want to alienate any movie fans.  To paraphrase Michael Jordan conservatives buy movie tickets too. 

All these DEI rollbacks are just a new version of I will hire the man because he has a family to support. Men are always given priority.  I work for a pest control company and I have seen videos of sales techniques that still prioritize talking to the man of the house.  And I can't count the times how many wives call us after their husband dies not knowing anything about their account because their husband took care of all that.

 

Just when I thought those days were over... We had a client when I was a vet tech who was an older woman. She didn't know how to drive so her husband would bring her and their pet. He would sit in the car, we never saw him. She didn't know how to write a check so we had the fill out a pre-signed (by him) check and send her on her way. I can't imagine what happened to her if her died first. I guess he didn't give a shit either.

Edited Sunday at 09:40 PM by peacheslatour

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

Here's an article from today's Toronto Star on the boy issue.  And about the kid who said he didn't feel like he had "White privilege." hI think we ignore the fact that there IS indeed a difference between immigrants and non-immigrants and to be perfectly fair, the most privileged would be White ANGLO-PROTESTANT, multi-generational middle/upper middle class STRAIGHT CISGENDER males.  And even then, if then, if they have any kind of disability, whether hidden or not, well, that doesn't give them full privilege either.  And yeah, some White guys might see me (Asian, child of immigrants, first generation Anglophone, female and neurodivergent) as being more "privileged" than they are due to class and education.  

Also, it's important that males speak up AND ARE LISTENED TO rather than dismissed (and they often are, so they give up).  Trust me, I know ALL ABOUT being dismissed for being "too privileged."  Yeah, my voice as a child of immigrants doesn't matter because my story doesn't fit the victimized narrative that many in the left want to hear (I see this HERE too, and I find this a safe(r) space).  

Most white guys were probably not repeatedly lectured by their parents on how to act so they don’t get shot out of hand when stopped by the police for a broken tail light. That is a huge privilege right there. You get to not live in fear. First privilege is not living in fear.  Next, medical treatments optimized for your body. A lot of things your average white guy probably doesn’t even think about are pretty big privileges. 
 

Full privileges, not sure what that means.  White guy with medical disability probably better off than black guy, other things being equal. Doesn’t mean people don’t talk over the guy in the wheelchair.  He is going to be dismissed all the time. Still privileged. 
 

i don’t know what to say to your post, really. I’m sorry. I’m sure you have encountered dismissed and outright prejudice and I am sorry that happened. Feel free to educate me on this. i’m sure I miss a lot of things. 
 

 

 

[Lugal]

8 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

There are various reasons why young men are becoming conservative and I can't help but wonder if it's because some of them were raised to think it's a man's world and are peeved to find out some people are pushing back on that.

That may be a part of it because there are always those types around, but that's not the entirety.  I think a bigger reason is that a man's social worth is completely determined by his financial wealth. And we currently have one of the biggest wealth gaps in modern history, there are a lot of men who are left out.  They have no way to build a life and enter into so-called "full adulthood."  They feel like society/the system/etc. sets them up for goals that they cannot realistically achieve, and they feel cheated.   Needless to say they are not happy about it.

It doesn't help that one of the common responses they get from the liberals, progressives and even some leftists is something along the lines of "check your privilege" and a complete lack of empathy.  The response they get from the conservatives and far right is usually something like "You're right, you have been cheated because DEI/liberals/feminists/immigrants" or whatever the current bête noir is.  Which is bullshit, but at least it sounds good.  One side dismisses them and the other side manipulates them.

[Anela]

3 minutes ago, Lugal said:

That may be a part of it because there are always those types around, but that's not the entirety.  I think a bigger reason is that a man's social worth is completely determined by his financial wealth. And we currently have one of the biggest wealth gaps in modern history, there are a lot of men who are left out.  They have no way to build a life and enter into so-called "full adulthood."  They feel like society/the system/etc. sets them up for goals that they cannot realistically achieve, and they feel cheated.   Needless to say they are not happy about it.

It doesn't help that one of the common responses they get from the liberals, progressives and even some leftists is something along the lines of "check your privilege" and a complete lack of empathy.  The response they get from the conservatives and far right is usually something like "You're right, you have been cheated because DEI/liberals/feminists/immigrants" or whatever the current bête noir is.  Which is bullshit, but at least it sounds good.  One side dismisses them and the other side manipulates them.

I tried empathy, and responded with my own issues as a woman, when it came to things like relationships. I was laughed at, and told that I must be lying, or be really ugly or something, if I wasn't getting everything I wanted as a woman. 

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

Private middle and high school and the school had kids from kindergarten on.  I didn’t have uniforms in elementary school but desperately wanted to be at a school that had one!  I also resisted the more “comfortable” clothes my grandmother forced me into.  I had no say.  Poh Poh was seriously toxic.  But as you probably know, it’s disrespectful for me to really say anything to family members (because I’m speaking ill of the dead).  So I’ll do so here and with my therapist.

Yes, some people preferred uniforms because they require less thought and don’t showcase economic differences, good arguments on either side. And the principal in my high school in the IS was put in his place for objecting to ridiculous infractions because the kids of influential people went to the school. So that’s privilege. but whatever is the standard, some kids gonna rebel. Having no say is bad parenting, in my opinion. I had a lot of that, too. My mother didn’t care what I wanted to wear and every time she thought about laying out money for it, she felt resentment. It was beat to not deal with it. 
 

Edited Sunday at 10:13 PM by Affogato

[PRgal]

12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Most white guys were probably not repeatedly lectured by their parents on how to act so they don’t get shot out of hand when stopped by the police for a broken tail light. That is a huge privilege right there. You get to not live in fear. First privilege is not living in fear.  Next, medical treatments optimized for your body. A lot of things your average white guy probably doesn’t even think about are pretty big privileges. 
 

Full privileges, not sure what that means.  White guy with medical disability probably better off than black guy, other things being equal. Doesn’t mean people don’t talk over the guy in the wheelchair.  He is going to be dismissed all the time. Still privileged. 
 

i don’t know what to say to your post, really. I’m sorry. I’m sure you have encountered dismissed and outright prejudice and I am sorry that happened. Feel free to educate me on this. i’m sure I miss a lot of things. 
 

 

 

People say they want diversity.  People say they want a variety of views from people of different ethnic groups.  But when I offer my experiences and those who I grew up with?  Well, those experiences don't matter because they're not "marginalized" enough.  Even when I offer what it's like to have a toxic immigrant grandmother.  They don't seem to care about linguistic challenges from immigrant communities, either.  I've talked about it here.  I'm not sure how people don't seem to understand this.  I've also talked about how boys/men in general aren't allowed to talk about their emotions and how they feel.  How every time THEY offer to say something and to contribute, they're ALSO dismissed, just like I am, and I'm female, non-White and as I like to say, first generation Anglophone.  When it doesn't fit the expected narrative of marginalization (you know, poor, non-English speaking, attending bad schools, etc...), then it DOESN'T MATTER.  It's "sit down and SHUT THE EFF UP!!!"  At least I can SORT of talk, being female and East Asian.....there's a reason why subreddits like /AsianParentStories exist.