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CM-BlueButterfly

By CM-BlueButterfly
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Lantern7

Lantern7

(edited)
37 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

Don't worry - she quit.  She's now waiting to be appointed to be senator from FL when Little Marco becomes Sec of State.  Another job she's definitely not qualified for.  Yippee...

It’s Florida. No one there will be outraged.

”Little Marco” . . . another sign that Republicans can swallow their pride so much and for so long if it means getting their way. It’s almost admirable. Almost.

Edited by Lantern7
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Annber03
Annber03

For as long as I live, I will never understand the hold this guy has over people. 

Annber03
Annber03

And yet the same people who are awed by his celebrity are also the ones talkng about how celebritees need to stay out of politics. You'll pardon me if I can't take their critiques all that seriously. 

Annber03
Annber03

Everything I want to say would be a string of curse words at this point.  Hope you're happy, people who decided to be all precious with your votes or who felt this guy deserved another chance aft

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Annber03

Annber03

16 hours ago, tearknee said:

Again, it was not just MAGA that won The Men Behind the Man Trump the recent election. Nor in 2016. Trump and Brexit are warnings that have self-provably gone largely unheeded by the non-right political parties and activist movement.

Attempting to shame non-intellectual elite* voters not only don't and didn't work but it seems to have blunted the long-term drift of white affluent suburbanites to the Democratic Party.

*- the college-educated middle class is an elite. You don't need to be monied to be an elite. Regardless of whether your mom was a boilermaker or such.

It's true that MAGA alone weren't the reason Trump won, but we were speaking of them specifically at that moment because of all the people praising Trump as this "real man", which would be a sentiment shared among MAGA supportesr. 

Also, there is a difference between being "non-intellectual" and just being ignorant, and proud of that ignorance, and saying things that are just flat out dumb. There are people who aren't very well-educated but still have a desire and interest to learn and understand. And then there's people who just do not seem to care about the most basic of facts or logic, and think their very obviously wrong/untrue beliefs should be treated the same as verifiable facts. The former I can easily sympathize with and work with. The latter are stupid. And the kinds of comments those Fox News people and the commenters were making are stupid, and I'm going to call them such. People who think that way were going to support Trump no matter how the rest of us talk about them. 

People keep saying all the time that we need to change how we speak to these people, but nobody ever gives any suggestions on how to actually do that in a way that would get through to them. Facts clearly don't work, they just dismiss them. Trying to be nice and "take the high road" sure as fuck ain't working, because Trump and the GOP are getting rewarded for saying awful things about people, things that are FAR more offensive than being called "stupid". All this "reach across the aisle/try to understand them" stuff doesn't seem to be working, so what the fuck else is there to do at this point? I'm not saying insulting people is going to sway them, either, 'cause, no, it won't, but it's just so incredibly frustrating to hear about how we on the Democratic side need to change the way we speak to and interact with people, when the right never gets that lecture. If wanting basic facts to be respected again makes us "elite", well, then I guess I'm elite. 

Also, this is a venting thread, so that's another aspect to consider, too. We're saying things here that we may not say in our everyday lives. We're frustrated and angry, too, and I don't get why people keep wanting to downplay that, while acting like the anger from Trump supporters and those who refuse to vote is valid and worth listening to. Especially since we've had nine years of having to listen to them go on about why they're so angry and getting their way constantly because of it. 

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Lantern7

Lantern7

*sigh* Now I got the statue scene from Rocky III in my head with Trump as Clubber Lang taunting Biden's Rocky.

"Real man." What the fuck is wrong with this country?

Lindsay Graham might have done . . . that?!? That's hard to believe. A baby could breathe on him and he'd get knocked back ten feet. I can't see him having the strength to clutch pearls.

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tearknee

tearknee

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

It's true that MAGA alone weren't the reason Trump won, but we were speaking of them specifically at that moment because of all the people praising Trump as this "real man", which would be a sentiment shared among MAGA supportesr. 

Also, there is a difference between being "non-intellectual" and just being ignorant, and proud of that ignorance, and saying things that are just flat out dumb. There are people who aren't very well-educated but still have a desire and interest to learn and understand. And then there's people who just do not seem to care about the most basic of facts or logic, and think their very obviously wrong/untrue beliefs should be treated the same as verifiable facts. The former I can easily sympathize with and work with. The latter are stupid. And the kinds of comments those Fox News people and the commenters were making are stupid, and I'm going to call them such. People who think that way were going to support Trump no matter how the rest of us talk about them. 

People keep saying all the time that we need to change how we speak to these people, but nobody ever gives any suggestions on how to actually do that in a way that would get through to them. Facts clearly don't work, they just dismiss them. Trying to be nice and "take the high road" sure as fuck ain't working, because Trump and the GOP are getting rewarded for saying awful things about people, things that are FAR more offensive than being called "stupid". All this "reach across the aisle/try to understand them" stuff doesn't seem to be working, so what the fuck else is there to do at this point? I'm not saying insulting people is going to sway them, either, 'cause, no, it won't, but it's just so incredibly frustrating to hear about how we on the Democratic side need to change the way we speak to and interact with people, when the right never gets that lecture. If wanting basic facts to be respected again makes us "elite", well, then I guess I'm elite. 

Also, this is a venting thread, so that's another aspect to consider, too. We're saying things here that we may not say in our everyday lives. We're frustrated and angry, too, and I don't get why people keep wanting to downplay that, while acting like the anger from Trump supporters and those who refuse to vote is valid and worth listening to. Especially since we've had nine years of having to listen to them go on about why they're so angry and getting their way constantly because of it. 

As Neil Kinnock found out in the UK in '92, as the "always was, always will be" people found out in Australia in Oct. '23 when in the privacy of the voting booth, voters can *vote as they think* and in '92 voters even told exit pollsters that they had just voted Labour Party when they hadn't.

 

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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Lindsay Graham might have done . . . that?!? That's hard to believe. A baby could breathe on him and he'd get knocked back ten feet. I can't see him having the strength to clutch pearls.

Seriously, one of the worst kept secrets in Washington is Lindsay Graham being gay. He's never going to come out, but the gay community in DC knows he is one of them. I assume some of his colleagues in the House and then the Senate are also aware and do not press the issue. He is from a state where being out and proud is not conducive for a political career though the people around him probably also know. The South is weird like that, you know but never say anything just as long as the gay person does not want their gayness to be acknowledged. You can have the best decorated house on the block where you live with your same sex roommate and it's all good, but as soon as you and your roommate get legally married or adopt kids you get shunned. 

Something made Lindsay go from being vocally skeptical of Trump to being Donald's #1 guy in the Senate.  I suspect the Russians have some kind of Kompromat on Lindsay and that was used to get him in line. And whatever the Russians could have on him has to be more than just "he's gay." 

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lookeyloo

lookeyloo

23 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

What is that old saying your political career is over if you are caught with a dead girl or a live boy?

Edwin Edwards, 4 time governor of Louisiana, where I lived for most of his 4 terms (great governor by the way, from someone who actually worked for state government) said that.  Whether he originated it or not, I can't say.

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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

I don't care if Graham is gay. It's the hypocrisy.  He votes against LGTBQ supportive bills.  How self loathing do you have to be to do that?

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I suspect the Russians have some kind of Kompromat on Lindsay and that was used to get him in line. And whatever the Russians could have on him has to be more than just "he's gay."

So that makes me wonder is it something that Graham thinks would make him look bad or is it something that truly is bad?

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"Real man." What the fuck is wrong with this country?

Toxic masculinity.  And Trump isn't even all that masculine. How anyone can look at him and think yeah that is some macho guy is beyond me.

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

there is a difference between being "non-intellectual" and just being ignorant, and proud of that ignorance, and saying things that are just flat out dumb

I have less sympathy for people who live in their echo chambers and refuse to see what is clearly the truth.  Especially when it is something Trump himself is on video saying. I feel like the people who think President Obama failed to act quickly enough to deal with Hurricane Katrina are now Trump voters.

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

People keep saying all the time that we need to change how we speak to these people,

Are they being told how they should change the way they speak to us?  Why is it always us who has to be the bigger person?

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

because Trump and the GOP are getting rewarded for saying awful things about people

I blame reality TV and social media. Both allowed people to be assholes and that resulted in ratings and clicks. And now it's become normal and acceptable.

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Especially since we've had nine years of having to listen to them go on about why they're so angry and getting their way constantly because of it. 

There have been books written about them.  There have been countless news stories (print and broadcast) about them.  Economic anxiety is what we are told.  Fear of being left behind we are told.  Wanting to drain the swamp we are told.  Remember back in 2008 Joe the plumber the media decided was someone who needed to be heard because he had concerns about taxes.  But here we are in 2024 and I haven't seen the media decide to talk to people who have concerns about Trump's Musk's plan to gut the safety net.

13 hours ago, fastiller said:

And the closest thing to Michael (Vanky) has been awfully quiet lately. 

You give them too much credit. Michael would have been a success no matter what. Vanky without their parent's money and connections would not have.

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fastiller

fastiller

6 hours ago, tearknee said:

As Neil Kinnock found out in the UK in '92, as the "always was, always will be" people found out in Australia in Oct. '23 when in the privacy of the voting booth, voters can *vote as they think* and in '92 voters even told exit pollsters that they had just voted Labour Party when they hadn't.

 

The Bradley Effect.  See also Social Desirability Bias.

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Dimity

Dimity

Just now, bluegirl147 said:

And his base won't care.  They never care if he follows through on what  he says.

His base would never care but it will definitely be interesting to me to see if those who voted for him claiming they held their nose and did so only because they thought he could fix the economy will be realizing they fell for the con man's lies.  Not that it will change anything, but surely at some point people will finally see that the emperor has no clothes.

5 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

It's not a popularity contest, just a matter of who had the greatest impact.

Absolutely true but it is just another thing Trump will point to and say "see how great I am".  It's maddening.

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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

5 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Remember "compassionate conservatism"?

That's an oxymoron.  

They don't even try to hide their cruelty.  Or their hate. Or their ignorance.

Every cycle it's a new boogeyman and right now it's Trans people. 

Parents in Wisconsin had their case rejected by SCOTUS. What was the case you ask?  A group of parents in Wisconsin was challenging Wisconsin school's guidance for supporting transgender students. What was the guidance?  It was:

“Administrative Guidance for Gender Identity Support” encourages transgender students to reach out to staff members with concerns and instructs employees to be careful who they talk to about a student’s gender identity, since not all students are “out” to their families.

The school wasn't performing surgeries.  The school isn't promoting any agenda. It is simply letting students know they are in a safe place. How awful a person do you have to be to want students to not feel safe a school? Probably the same awful people who don't think school shootings are a problem.

Oh and by the way three Justices said they would have heard the case.  Of course those Justices were Thomas, Alito and Kavanaugh.

 

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Lantern7

Lantern7

(edited)
3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Orange Man is Time's PERSON OF THE YEAR?  Why the EFF?

3 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

It's not a popularity contest, just a matter of who had the greatest impact.

In mathematical terms, think of the “honor” as going to the person with the greatest absolute value. Last year, Taylor Swift had the greatest absolute value, most of it positive. This year? Different story.

I don’t see this as capitulation from Time, nor do I think it’s about chasing clout. The biggest downside is that he will never shut the fuck up about it. The only things that can silence him are laryngitis and broken fingers, and I don’t think he’s ever had either of those.

7 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

Toxic masculinity.  And Trump isn't even all that masculine. How anyone can look at him and think yeah that is some macho guy is beyond me.

He’s a parody of a human being. Thinking about it, who was the last Republican President that could fit the stereotype of “a real man”? It’s gotta be Reagan, yes? Bush the Elder was categorized as a wimp before he was elected. Dubya was an Ivy Leaguer playing cowboy. Teddy Rosevelt should have risen from his grave ten times over by now.

Edited by Lantern7
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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

3 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

 

He’s a parody of a human being. Thinking about it, what Republican President could fit the stereotype of “a real man”? It’s gotta be Reagan, yes? Bush the Elder was categorized as a wimp before he was elected. Dubya was an Ivy Leaguer playing cowboy. Teddy Rosevelt should have risen from his grave ten times over by now.

Eisenhower.  Although today he wouldn't be a Republican.

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Eisenhower.  Although today he wouldn't be a Republican.

 

Unlike Donald Trump, who is a WWE Hall of Famer, Lincoln was inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame in 1992, where he is recognized among the greatest wrestlers in history. In contrast to modern wrestlers, Lincoln was primarily a catch wrestler, a style of wrestling that has very few rules. I doubt he'd be a Republican now either.

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tearknee

tearknee

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I don't even know where I fit these days (okay, I never really did).  And I worry about my son growing up in a world that has such extremist views on both sides.  It's a LITTLE better up here, but I wouldn't say by much.  Especially with PM NepoKid refusing to step down.



tbh, Pierre Trudeau sounds like it's where Rory B. Bellows would hang (I hated papa bear just as much...)

Bastet

Bastet

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Remember "compassionate conservatism"?

The saying, sure.  It never actually existed.

The background on that NDAA (spending bill for the Defense Dept) provision:  The NDAA usually sails through each year, as almost all Republicans gobble it up (they love giving money by the truckload to the Pentagon) and most Democrats vote yes as well.  This year, Republicans had a bunch of culture war bullshit in there -- a ban on coverage for gender affirming care, a ban on endorsing critical race theory in any DOD-run academic institutions and military training, a one-year extension on a hiring freeze for DEI-related positions in the Pentagon, no longer reimbursing costs for troops who have to travel to obtain abortions, requiring coverage for in vitro.

All this nonsense was stalling negotiations, and most of it got dropped*, including the ban on covering gender affirming care.  That made far-right representatives angry, so at something close to the last minute Speaker Mike Johnson added that narrower, one sentence restriction (on page 399 of 1,813), targeting "only" transgender teens (so gender affirming care is still covered for service members - until Trump boots them out altogether, of course - but not their kids), as a sop to them.

Most Democrats who typically vote to pass the NDAA voted no because of that odious provision.  But 81 voted yes.  (And, no, despite being just one sentence and added late in the process, they can't claim they didn't know, as it was vehemently called out on the House floor by other Democrats.)

*(What remains: the CRT ban and the DEI hiring freeze)

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Yes but Trump will brag about it.  Say he was chosen because he is the bestest person ever.

Shit like that just rolls off my back these days. We know exactly what he is and deep down, he does too. That's why he tries so hard to create this myth that he is beloved by all. He might as well have mama never loved me tattooed on his forehead.

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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

18 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Most Democrats who typically vote to pass the NDAA voted no because of that odious provision.  But 81 voted yes.  (And, no, despite being just one sentence and added late in the process, they can't claim they didn't know, as it was vehemently called out on the House floor by other Democrats.)

 

One of those 81 is my Rep until next month (I could go on a whole rant as to how the NCGOP keeps on screwing us over with all the redistricting). We live in an area with a huge military presence which also equates to a large number of veterans living here. Voting against the NDAA is political suicide for him. He just barely won reelection, and the Republicans will definitely find a new challenger in 2026. 

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

7 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

One of those 81 is my Rep until next month (I could go on a whole rant as to how the NCGOP keeps on screwing us over with all the redistricting). We live in an area with a huge military presence which also equates to a large number of veterans living here. Voting against the NDAA is political suicide for him. He just barely won reelection, and the Republicans will definitely find a new challenger in 2026. 

Yeah, I wasn't surprised at all that quite a few Dems voted for this. The fucking Republicans will sneak this social warrior crap in there every time they know it's an important bill, likely to pass without much of a fight. What they did would never pass as a standalone bill.

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Yeah No

Yeah No

9 hours ago, Dimity said:

His base would never care but it will definitely be interesting to me to see if those who voted for him claiming they held their nose and did so only because they thought he could fix the economy will be realizing they fell for the con man's lies.  Not that it will change anything, but surely at some point people will finally see that the emperor has no clothes.

Absolutely true but it is just another thing Trump will point to and say "see how great I am".  It's maddening.

Again, that's pretty much what I was going to say. He didn't say it for his base because they'd vote for him anyway no matter what crap comes out of his mouth. He made those promises to dupe the "suckers" on the fence into voting for him with no intention of ever following through. One can only hope that this will create a lot of "buyers remorse" among them. He's likely not to follow through on most of the promises he's made so that buyer's remorse might continue to grow among that group. There have already been some articles written about this, but this could really work in the Democratic party's favor in the next presidential election (and the midterms too). Those "on the fence" people are the ones that can more easily be convinced to vote Democratic next time.

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Annber03

Annber03

10 hours ago, atomic said:

Lol....who could have seen this coming? Oh right, all of us with the basic common sense to know his economic policies are in DIRECT CONFLICT with lowering the price of groceries.

 

I have never run a business. I have never been a boss. I have, obviously, never run for any sort of political office.

And I know economics and finance is fucking hard. This guy's, what, in his late 70s now? And he's STILL like, "Oh, duh, I guess this government stuff isn't as easy as it looks." No shit, ya don't say. 

10 hours ago, Dimity said:

Absolutely true but it is just another thing Trump will point to and say "see how great I am".  It's maddening.

This. Trump already has FAR more than enough publicity, he doesn't need any more. Surely there were people who did significant things this year that were far more worthy of getting the honor than a guy who's already in the news every goddamn day. 

9 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

That's an oxymoron.  

They don't even try to hide their cruelty.  Or their hate. Or their ignorance.

Every cycle it's a new boogeyman and right now it's Trans people. 

Parents in Wisconsin had their case rejected by SCOTUS. What was the case you ask?  A group of parents in Wisconsin was challenging Wisconsin school's guidance for supporting transgender students. What was the guidance?  It was:

“Administrative Guidance for Gender Identity Support” encourages transgender students to reach out to staff members with concerns and instructs employees to be careful who they talk to about a student’s gender identity, since not all students are “out” to their families.

The school wasn't performing surgeries.  The school isn't promoting any agenda. It is simply letting students know they are in a safe place. How awful a person do you have to be to want students to not feel safe a school? Probably the same awful people who don't think school shootings are a problem.

And this brings me back to my whole thing about calling people who have the kinds of views these parents do stupid. You do not have to be a college-educated/intellectual "elitist" to understand that transgender people deserve basic civil and human rights. Nor do you need to be one to understand that schools are not going around changing students' genders just for funsies and doing surgeries on them. So yes, anyone who thinks transgender people are some kind of threat to them, their children, society as a whole (or LGBTQ+ people in general, for that matter)? And who also go so far as to actually support politiicians and policies that strip people of their rights besides? 

Yeah. They are stupid. Full on stupid. And I'm not going to apologize for calling them that. If they get offended by that, well, tough shit, I'm offended that they think they have the right to treat people who aren't like them like second-class citizens. If that. One is significantly more damaging and divisive than the other, and I guarantee it ain't people like myself calling someone "stupid" for their ignorant views. 

Also, stuff like this just further hilghlights how the "economic anxiety" argument is total bullshit. How is trying to deny transgender people rights and a safe place going to help fix our economic woes? What does that have to do wit the price of eggs being too high? You know, that thing that the media keeps claiming those who voted for Trump were supposedly so worried about? If economic issues are the real concern for voters, why aren't these Wisconsin parents spending time raising a fuss about that instead of throwing hissy fits because schools dare to give transgender children a safe place to be themselves? 

Stuff like this is also why I am so tired of the media talking about how the Democrats need to stop being so "woke" and going on about progressive issues. Alongside the fact that they literally did not campaign on that sort of thing this past election...yeah, no, I do not want the Democrats becoming the party that will vote for the kind of bullshit the GOP puts out as a bill. I want them to stand up for the rights of minorities and women. That's not them being "too woke" or "too progressive", it's called being decent human beings who want to protect the most vulnerable groups in our society. 

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Lantern7

Lantern7

Once again, I'm wondering who needs to be beaten first. Should it be Trump? The party that empowers and benefits from him? The other party that more or less let this disaster happen? The media for not calling him out on a regular basis? His uninformed, delusional followers? The rich motherfuckers that will benefit from the upcoming administration? Crap, there are probably at least two dozen other groups that aren't coming to mind now.

Do you want to get mad at the right wing media and/or impressed by clever editing? The Daily Show mixes condemnation for Luigi with footage of another guy getting lauded after he killed a guy.

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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

(edited)
8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That's not them being "too woke" or "too progressive", it's called being decent human beings who want to protect the most vulnerable groups in our society. 

I dislike the word "woke" because it implies not knowing something till it was explained to you and then you are awakened.  I have always wanted equality for everyone. So I guess I can say I've been awake the whole time.  Whether they like it or not the Republican party is now known as the party who wants to marginalize  pretty much anyone who isn't white straight Christians.  I guess I should add wealthy as well.  As much as Republican politicians gaslight lower and middle income voters into thinking they care about them the policies that would help those voters they consistently vote against. 

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

His uninformed, delusional followers?

For me they are the problem. Once Trump is gone they will simply look to the next person who will lie to them and make them feel like all their grievances are valid.  Trump tapped into their resentment. Resentment of people they think are getting something they themselves deserve but aren't getting.  Resentment of not having the life they think they should have.  Resentment of not being able to do what they damn well please without consequences. Resentment of the world changing and their not liking it one bit. Other politicians took note of Trump's success and started following his playbook.  I used to think when he was gone the fever would finally break but there will just be another infection in the body politic.

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

The media for not calling him out on a regular basis?

Kristen Welker even when she asked Trump questions he fumbled on she let it go.  I wouldn't doubt she had some producer whispering in her ear move on.  Media outlets are so afraid of losing access. They might push a little bit but they aren't going to hold his feet to the fire.  They don't realize he needs them as much as they need him.  He would never be able to function if not for all the media coverage.

Edited by bluegirl147
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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

12 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

 

Kristen Welker even when she asked Trump questions he fumbled on she let it go.  I wouldn't doubt she had some producer whispering in her ear move on.  Media outlets are so afraid of losing access. They might push a little bit but they aren't going to hold his feet to the fire.  They don't realize he needs them as much as they need him.  He would never be able to function if not for all the media coverage.

Nah, Kristen did not need any producer telling her to do anything during that interview. I remember seeing her on the Today Show before the interview aired looking like the cat who at the canary. It's not the networks deciding to placate Trump in exchange for access, it's the reporters themselves doing it to further their careers.

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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

12 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

it's the reporters themselves doing it to further their careers.

I still miss Tim Russert.

7 minutes ago, tres bien said:

My outrage towards Jeff Bezos since he killed the WAPO’s endorsement of Harris definitely hit the boiling point this week. 

Someone on another site commented this is how Russia came to have oligarchs.  And it would seem we now have some here. Guess being a billionaire just isn't enough anymore. 

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