S01.E01: Pilot

[mbutterfly]

Gosh, I kind of loved it in a frivolous "go woman power" way. I do agree Bebe Neuwirth was wasted in this one. I hope her role will build because (well, I kind of love go woman power with Bebe too). I really hate seeing the daughter Stevie makes headlines for next week. Yawn! Is that obligatory in every strong woman/mother story? I think the CIA thread has to remain strong for a while as that is her particular insider area. I, too, hope it doesn't overwhelm other threads. 

[Clover]

So Annie Walker is now Secretary of State.  Never would have expected her to marry and have kids. ;)

 

I had such high hopes for this show.  Given the cast, I can't believe how bad it was.  Might have been better with Bebe Neuwirth as the SoS.  The concept is good, but the story (or at least where they are taking it) is unfortunate.  If this show doesn't improve (I'll give it another episode), I'm out.

[dubbel zout]

So Annie Walker is now Secretary of State.  Never would have expected her to marry and have kids. ;)

 

Bwah. Elizabeth is slightly ahead of Annie in that she actually let someone else's plan go ahead even if she didn't agree with it. Annie would say "Fuck it" and botch the job, then expect lavish praise for saving things that she wrecked in the first place.

[Guest]

I wonder if they dropped this CIA thread in last minute because they heard about the Katherine Heigl pilot.  Both are likely to have ripped from the headlines, case of the week, stories about foreign affairs.  I wonder if they were concerned that CIA agent briefs President sounded more interesting than a day in the life of the SoS.

[Jac]

I would like to think that was the case but the CIA is so heavily entwined into SoS's past that I think it was probably the plan all along.

[Dowel Jones]

On a side note, PBS did a fine special awhile back on the job of Chief of Staff, interviewing many of the past ones.  I think it might have been called Gatekeeper.  It really gave some insight into the "actual duties and the personalities", and the internecine cutthroat politics.

[TV Anonymous]

There's a difference though between affecting policy and making it.  What we saw happen was this CoS telling a person who in the real world vastly exceeds them in authority what to do with a policy/deployment decision. It was played as an order--like the CoS was somehow a mini-President, when the President was too busy.  And even the Vice President isn't that.  The simple fact is the CoS can't tell any Cabinet Member what to do (not even the dinkiest ones, like The Secretary of Veterans Affairs).  The CoS isn't even technically a Cabinet member himself--he's an equivalent parallel rank (although as I said before, totally outside the succession chain).  

 

I agree with this. To put things into perspective, imagine if Rahm Emanuel tried to pull what Zeljko did to Tea to Hillary Clinton. Hillary would eat him alive and he would be sent back to Illinois at that instant.

[shapeshifter]

I agree with this. To put things into perspective, imagine if Rahm Emanuel tried to pull what Zeljko did to Tea to Hillary Clinton. Hillary would eat him alive and he would be sent back to Illinois at that instant.

Not so sure about that--he did have the nickname of Rahmbo when he was on The Hill. Heh.

[Kromm]

Not so sure about that--he did have the nickname of Rahmbo when he was on The Hill. Heh.

Yeah, but I think the real life power struggles with the CoS is more like someone coming in and stomping all over lifetime civil servants in the White House hierarchy, vs. one trying to be a mini-President who fucks around in spycraft and International politics.

[kaygeeret]

Ok, I am in the minority here I guess but here goes:

 

I love Tea Leoni and I don't remember what show I loved her in - so that is her power over me!  Thrilled to see her back and loved her read of the character.

 

Loved the interaction between husband and wife, seemed reality albeit idealized a bit.

 

In general, loved the entire cast - some high powered folks there and Bebe Neuwirth(sp?) is just one of them.

 

It's a pilot people, not a full fledged show.  Great people are on this thing, let's give it a chance.

 

I'm in for the season, then we will see.

 

I recall that the Good Wife took a bit to get edgy and interesting and we were all there because of the cast etc.

Edited September 28, 2014 by kaygeeret

[peggy06]

As a West Wing fan, I was hoping for a good political drama with a D.C. setting. This is no West Wing. The plot was ridiculously predictable from the halfway point if not before. I am already bored thinking about the conflict between Tea Leoni's and Zeldjko Ivanek's characters. Then they had to go and add a murder/conspiracy subplot as well. If I want to see CIA skulduggery, I'll watch The Americans. This show cannot possibly do it as well.

 

TWW wasn't perfect, could be preachy and sentimental and idealized some of its characters, But they were great characters in the hands of wonderful actors. There was an energy to that show that is totally lacking here, so far. A plot where two young Americans were threatened with execution should feel a lot more urgent than this.

[needschocolate]

The pilot felt like it had been a 2 hour movie and they cut it down to a 1 hour episode. They seemed to try to cram so much into it, but left out details - yet, by the end the whole plot could be summed up in one sentence (The new SOS saves to kids from the Syrians and has dinner with a polygamist), so there wasn't that much there at all. We kept asking "Who's that guy supposed to be?"  - which I think may have been code for "Why should we care about that guy?" - all the older white guys blurred together in my head.   

 

But it was a pilot, so I will cut it some slack and give it a few more episodes.  I like fish-out-of-water stuff, so I told my husband, who loves political dramas, that I would probably watch it for a season or two, then they won't be able to keep her as the anti-politics newbie, she will probably start playing the political games, and they will also go away from the crisis/case of the week to the long multi-week story arcs that become more and more ridiculous. Seen it happen on other shows, some of which I have dropped, and some that I continue watching, like Good Wife, because the acting makes up for the story.  I haven't seen Tia Leone in anything lately, but I sued to be a fan - however, I don't think her acting is very good in this show.  I think she does better with comedy - her "serious" acting comes off as very wooden and unemotional to me. 

[kaygeeret]

Yikes, ok, big supporter of the pilot here.

 

Disappointed in the second epi.  Seems mired in pretty boring plot lines.

 

Can we just nominate Tim Daly for sainthood now and be done with it?  'Cause a part of me doesn't really believe that a spouse never is told anything at all, particularly a spouse as smart and as engaged as saint Tim.  I love him, but, somehow we have to get it across that he is smart enough to fit pieces together w/o breaching national security.

 

I mean do we really believe that Hillary/Bill or Barack/Michelle or Ronnie/ Mrs. Reagan or George 1/Barbara or George2/Laura didn't allude to or actually discuss anything?  I don't buy it at all.  The wives mentioned are smarter than the average bear, sophisticated and aware of the world around them.

 

I'm still in because this is a stellar cast from top to bottom  and I want to see them shine.  The plotting, character development and writing need to be kicked up many notches.

 

Just sayin'

Edited September 29, 2014 by kaygeeret

[caligirl50]

I liked it but was disappointed they didn't flush it out with the family moving and showing all that emotion and chaos. The president is at her house and the next scene is Tea in her office in the position. Too rushed. Take your time network television! This little stuff is the difference between network and Netflix/HBO/Showtime, etc. Make it more real next time producers!

[Madam Potus]

I %u2661 this show and it's true to life it's more like watching a reality show than a "tv show" at least for us (people who work in politics). Fyi Seinfeld ,Friends and Sex and the City sucked the first seasons and Madame Secretary ratings are pretty good. So I wouldn't be to quick to write the show off.

[myril]

While I agree, that the meeting scene with CoS and others (who else was there, only guess it was more of a regular kind of meeting) was not the best writing, not clear enough, taking it maybe a tad too far, think many people tend to underestimate the role of a gatekeeper.

 

There is formal power, things like an official hierarchy (President, Vice President etc.) defined by laws, constitution, and there is an informal power and influence. The CoS has barely formal power, the role depends on the president and what he/wants it to be, but can have plenty of informal power and influence, the gatekeeper control the access of people and information to the President, when, where, timing can have a great influence on outcome.. Did Jackson have formally the right to tell the Secretary of State what to do? No, but does McCord had to take him as the one voicing the opinion of the President in this moment? Likely. McCord had her doubts, wanted to discuss the case of the two young men with POTUS herself, but, well, that's the power gatekeepers have, at least those good organized and established, you hardly get to the boss without the gatekeeper's consent. It doesn't matter if it's just the CEO of your company, the president of a university or the President of the United States, there is often some gatekeeper. After watching just the other day again a documentary about the CoS ("The Presidents' Gatekeepers") I didn't find this meeting scene in the episode and the first impressions of Jackson that unrealistic. Not involved in politics? Maybe that is true for the chef de cuisin, but not for the CoS. The position of CoS, closest and chef assistant of the President is as much administrative as is it sure a political position. Look at who has been CoS in their careers: Rumsfeld and Cheney (the latter started as deputy of the first), Alexander Haig, Leon Panetta became later Director of the CIA, then Secretary of Defense, Rahm Emanuel is now mayor of Chicago... These are not just some petty managers of staff and schedules. There is a reason why the CoS is called by now the second most powerful person in Washington.

 

It was shown in this meeting, that McCord was the new kid on the block. No idea, who Mike Pniewski was portraying, but his character was condescending, making tacky remarks, and it was very telling that he felt like he could do so, and that Jackson wasn't saying a thing. It's called power play. McCord was new on the job, has no or little political footing in Washington, some in that shark tank might think, she is easy prey. I would actually like to see a bit more of this.

 

I agree with this. To put things into perspective, imagine if Rahm Emanuel tried to pull what Zeljko did to Tea to Hillary Clinton. Hillary would eat him alive and he would be sent back to Illinois at that instant.

 

Maybe the Hillary Clinton of these days would have done so, but she has become a political heavyweight on her own, she was Senator for 8 years before, but also knew the circus of White House as the First Lady. Hilary Clinton is by now a sort of political celebrity, well known all over the world, having plenty of informal power.

 

That is not McCord. In matters of political standing McCord is a nobody as much as a wild card. She depends at the beginning mostly on the trust of the President. She is probably a well respected person with some from the CIA (not sure what her career standing was there though, besides that she was an analyst - what type, what level?), but she seems to be rather a political lightweight until now, and, aside her position, still is.

 

It amuses me, how people compare McCord with Hillary Clinton and go even so far to assume, this show is some sort of early election support for her, calling the show "blatant propaganda". McCord is so not Hillary Clinton, besides maybe that she has blonde hair and a family. But I wouldn't be too surprised if a dark haired McCord would have been assumed to be a copy of Clinton as well. One thing that this nonsensical comparison shows: There haven't been and are not many women in such power positions, as Hillary Clinton was and is in, to compare with.

 

I agree on one thing, entertainment might have effects on perception and acceptance, on how we see and expect things to happen in our world. To me it's a great thing to see more women portrayed not as afterthought and spouse of some powerful guy but being in power posititions themselves. If people might call the show out for having a probable feminist effect or agenda, I would say, maybe, hopfully, and I like it. But that is no direct election campaign, it just supports the image of women in power in general, gives fictional examples, and that might support any woman trying in real life to get into such jobs and positions (regardles what political views they might have). We're hopefully getting more used to see women in these positions and not just in fiction.

 

 

I liked it but was disappointed they didn't flush it out with the family moving and showing all that emotion and chaos. The president is at her house and the next scene is Tea in her office in the position. Too rushed. Take your time network television! This little stuff is the difference between network and Netflix/HBO/Showtime, etc. Make it more real next time producers!

 

I didn't mind that they left out showing them doing the move. We're in two months, in this time they have unpacked but just are beginning to settle. That time was filled with organising things, finding a new home, taking care of the old, getting new schools for the two younger kids, getting the post for Henry at Georgtown university, and the confirmation hearing of the Committee of Foreign Relations. If I missed anything than it was that hearing, it could have set some interesting relations. This is perhaps the weakest part of the whole premise - particular because McCord was not much of a political player so far, it would have been important for the President's team to bring her in the right way, introduce her to the people with importance (I don't think there is any kind of emergency case law circumventing  advice and consent, confirmation hearing of Senat for the Secretary of State, or is there?) to prepare the hearing. But otherwise, concerning the McCords family I think the emotions and chaos are starting now, now after all technical stuff is done so to speak. It's often that way, I think, the moment you finally can sit down, take a breath, have everything sorted in and have experienced your first days in your new place, home, office, that is when it begins to sink in,  emotions come up, and the challenges of everyday life begin.

 

I liked the pilot enough to put the show on my list to watch for the fall, and maybe beyond. Tea Leonie is doing a good job, and her comical background I think is helping with this character, because IMO it takes some humor in politics to not get destroyed as a person in short time (or you have to be a psychopath and or very power hungry). She's believable as being someone knowledgeable in politics and policy, though new as player in the big shark tank, practical and not shy to get her hands dirty but still with some ethics. Tim Daly does a great husband, the kids being as smart as they seem might be a writing challenge though (kids in such things always are, too smart and reasonable they are annoying, but can't make them acting out all time either, some line to walk). McCord's close staff needs to be more fleshed out,  but we're just at the beginning of the show, and I expect more to come there.

 

Don't fancy though this hint of conspiracy, but I very much dislike Homeland since the beginning and never liked 24 (just agree both shows have some great acting, sort of good writing, if people like that kind of stuff) and I'm kinda allergic to conspiracy stories and secret service /spy drama, prefer more the classical political drama (there can be enough thrill in that).  Just hoping it turns out to be not much of a conspiracy at all, which doesn't have to mean that the plane crash as well as the death of George can't have merits for the overall story of the show, the development of the characters. Maybe some interesting inner office and inter offices dynamics, bad mouthing, things taken differently, shady doings and tragic, but that could do it, but not a full blown conspiracy - meaning the plane should have an accident, George had been freaking out, though why March was flying to Venezuela could be a thing.

Edited November 8, 2014 by katusch

[TV Anonymous]

There is formal power, things like an official hierarchy (President, Vice President etc.) defined by laws, constitution, and there is an informal power and influence. The CoS has barely formal power, the role depends on the president and what he/wants it to be, but can have plenty of informal power and influence, the gatekeeper control the access of people and information to the President, when, where, timing can have a great influence on outcome.. Did Jackson have formally the right to tell the Secretary of State what to do? No, but does McCord had to take him as the one voicing the opinion of the President in this moment? Likely. McCord had her doubts, wanted to discuss the case of the two young men with POTUS herself, but, well, that's the power gatekeepers have, at least those good organized and established, you hardly get to the boss without the gatekeeper's consent. It doesn't matter if it's just the CEO of your company, the president of a university or the President of the United States, there is often some gatekeeper. After watching just the other day again a documentary about the CoS ("The Presidents' Gatekeepers") I didn't find this meeting scene in the episode and the first impressions of Jackson that unrealistic. Not involved in politics? Maybe that is true for the chef de cuisin, but not for the CoS. The position of CoS, closest and chef assistant of the President is as much administrative as is it sure a political position. Look at who has been CoS in their careers: Rumsfeld and Cheney (the latter started as deputy of the first), Alexander Haig, Leon Panetta became later Director of the CIA, then Secretary of Defense, Rahm Emanuel is now mayor of Chicago... These are not just some petty managers of staff and schedules. There is a reason why the CoS is called by now the second most powerful person in Washington.

 

What on issue here is the dynamics between the Secretary of State and the White House Chief of Staff. The premise is that the CoS does not have authority over SecState in reality. The fact that former Chiefs of Staff did move on to bigger positions in their political career have little bearing on how an incumbent CoS treats an incumbent SecState. Looking at the examples above, Haig, Rumsfeld and Cheney were CoS when Henry Kissinger were SecState. Does this mean that what Henry Kissinger did was approved by those men? That Kissinger was micro-managed by 1970s Rumsfeld or Cheney?

[myril]

The position of CoS was seen here as that of some administrator, a bureaucrat with not political agenda or political work, and I disagree with that, and think it is an uninformed assumption, only looking at formal power structures.  Could the CoS push around political heavyweights in the position of Secretary of State? Unlikely, though probably could be a pain in their butt. But McCord is no political heavyweight, she is an outsider coming into the shark tank. Different from many I don't find it so far-fetched, that a CoS could try to place himself in the informal chain of command of daily political decision making as equal or even as higher ranking to a Secretary of State with rather little political capital in her background. The writers of the show sure are taking some fictional freedom here, but I see reasons, why it can work, and inside the narrative of the show it makes sense to me. They couldn't put the President into the position of daily jerk, antagonist, because then one very well should have to wonder, why he nominated McCord in the first place. And it would have been not as interesting to make it the leader of the Senat Committee or some other Secretary (who? Defense?). For the narrative you need someone to be close to the President, able to be not just an obstacle in opinions but in access for McCord to the President, and one you could work into most possible story lines. So use the power behind the thrown.

 

I see, that for some this setup doesn't make sense, because they have a different picture of the CoS, but for me it works quite fine in general, though in detail sometimes they have to do some stretching with it. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by katusch

[jordanpond]

I really liked this. I'll definitely continue to tune in. As a college professor myself, I was not too happy to see the Professors McCord teaching in jeans. That looked terribly unprofessional. And I would never kiss my husband in front of students. I was happy, however, to see her flat out refuse to give that student an extension on his paper.

[shapeshifter]

I really liked this. I'll definitely continue to tune in. As a college professor myself, I was not too happy to see the Professors McCord teaching in jeans. That looked terribly unprofessional. And I would never kiss my husband in front of students. I was happy, however, to see her flat out refuse to give that student an extension on his paper.

I don't recall this episode anymore, but at the small, private college where I work, some of the male teachers wear jeans some of the time--mostly the ones who came of age in the 60s--but, now that you mention it, few if any women do. I also noticed from the back of a faculty meeting recently that the women almost all dye their hair, whereas the men go gray.

I've never seen any smooching among the faculty couples.

Anyway, it was a surprisingly well-done and watchable series with some engaging takes on social issues.

Edited May 4, 2015 by shapeshifter

[myril]

As a college professor myself, I was not too happy to see the Professors McCord teaching in jeans. That looked terribly unprofessional. And I would never kiss my husband in front of students. I was happy, however, to see her flat out refuse to give that student an extension on his paper.

 

Yup, it can give wrong impression. But might differ from university to university and between departments. While I was very used to my economy professors wearing business suits, I found that rather strange at times with a few of my politics and sociology professors. A few were wearing suits even there, but most were in jeans, one even in tight leather pants (he though also told his female students to be more easygoing and wear clothes more form fitting than simple jeans and sweater, oh well). Business is to me like a uniform, wear it if I have to, if it fits the occasion, it creates a certain attitude and manner, and that's okay.

 

It set up a fitting contrast to what Bess was wearing at CIA or now as Secretary of State, showing, it was to her a different world.

[jordanpond]

Funny you mentioned sociology professors, because we pretty much all wear suits.

I respect my students as adults, but I never want to dress in a way in which my role as a professor is unclear. I think that a casual look is one of those things that has some of today's students thinking that any rules you make don't really apply to them and that you can be talked out of maintaining your policies and break rules just for them. I noticed that the student told her, rather than asked her, that he needed an extension. Sure, she said no just as easily in jeans as she would have in a suit, but I always feel that a suit maintains an image that says, I'm the professor here, don't even get the illusion that we're pals, and that I'll break some rule for you that everyone else has to follow.

[CheshireCat]

I just watched this episode again. I think it's the episode that I have watched most of all the shows that I watch and I don't think I'll ever tire of watching Conrad arrive at the farm and Bess' reaction when he tells her that he wants her to become Secretary of State or that conversation between Henry and Bess when she wonders if they made the right move and starts to talk about her "masculine energy". I know what is coming but it still cracks me up. And the rest of the episode is pretty good, too ;-)

But each time I watch it, I wish a little more that they'd have shown us how Bess tells her family about Conrad's offer and some of the confirmation process. I would have loved to see how she would have handled the public and congressional scrutiny.

Spoiler

Especially now, that we've seen her tell her family and staff that she was going to run for President and some of her interaction with members of Congress and how she was affected by the story about her and Conrad.

I thought I'd get over it a one point, but it still annoys me that Conrad says "now" he has to go with Russell after the botched rescue attempt. The first attempt happened the way it did because Russell would not allow her to proceed as she wanted to, so the way I see it, that was on him and they went with him that time as well.

And the conversation with Conrad in the Oval Office after Bess makes an unofficial move confuses me to this day. It seems somewhat disjointed, as if they cut out some dialogue for time and now it doesn't quite fit together.

But I love how Bess' first instinct is to handle this like she (probably) would have at the CIA and that they created a story that allows her to do that and that establishes that her non-conventional thinking can be an asset.