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S01.E01: Pilot


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Well Good Wife didn't finish until 11:10 on the east coast, Philly programming went right into the news instead of the second run of the pilot. 

 

Based on the previous comments, debating whether it's worth going on cbs.com to watch the pilot.

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Yes, they lived in Virginia, but Charlottesville is almost 200 miles from D.C., so not a distance where they could commute.  I assume they had previously lived in the Washington area when she worked at the CIA.

 

I know there will be all the comparisons to Hillary, but there have been three women Secretaries of State.  None of them had kids at home.  We only assume it is Mrs. Clinton because of her current political activity.

 

I agree with folks that the show I want to see is more like The West Wing and less like Scandal.

And a question: At the dinner with the African king, would so many staff members be there with the SoS?   It seemed rather formal for a working meeting.  You would expect to see celebrities and government officials, not staff members at this sort of dinner.  Why did the king have his wives, but we didn't see any of his staff.  (And by the same token,  the Secretary hadn't brought her husband.) 

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This is not encouraging: according to Todd Van Der Werff at VOX, the pilot was the best of the three episodes CBS sent out to critics.

If so they need to crank up that Morgan Freeman co-producer power quick, and get his ass on the media circuit discussing/propping up the show.  Barbara Hall has a little more pull since Homeland (vs. lets say... Judging Amy), but all Morgan has to do is speak in that voice of his and say "watch this show" and some folks will watch the show.

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I certainly hope they don't go down the older professor-hot student route.

Too late for that.  The co-ed during the library lecture clearly had a case of steaming silks.  In addition, each of the Leoni/Daly pillow talk scenes had an element that it's hit or miss cuddle time for the pair. Pedestrian writing requires one thing leads to the inevitable another.

 

If they were comfortable busting out the conspiracy card right off the bat I don't see any reason they wouldn't go to the playbook and drag out an additional sure fire device. 

 

 

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Too late for that.  The co-ed during the library lecture clearly had a case of steaming silks.  In addition, each of the Leoni/Daly pillow talk scenes had an element that it's hit or miss cuddle time for the pair. Pedestrian writing requires one thing leads to the inevitable another.

 

If they were comfortable busting out the conspiracy card right off the bat I don't see any reason they wouldn't go to the playbook and drag out an additional sure fire device. 

I have to say I just don't get casting Daly.  He's a bit washed up, sure, but he's still a big enough name that people are going to kick up a fuss that he's either got to have super-contrived storylines, or be little more than a reoccuring guest star (even if his name is in the regular cast list).

 

Take whatever Chris Noth had to do on The Good Wife and divide it by 4 or 5 and I imagine that's Daly's fate here.

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If so they need to crank up that Morgan Freeman co-producer power quick, and get his ass on the media circuit discussing/propping up the show.  Barbara Hall has a little more pull since Homeland (vs. lets say... Judging Amy), but all Morgan has to do is speak in that voice of his and say "watch this show" and some folks will watch the show.

Love Freeman the actor, but his production company has had....  ahhh, mixed results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelations_Entertainment

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"all Morgan has to do is speak in that voice of his and say 'watch this show' and some folks will watch the show."

Well... Instead of "discussing/propping" the show so more people will watch the show, Barbara Hall needs to make the show better. The question is, can she?

Barbara Hall knows how to write complex, layered characters navigating life's ambiguities ("Joan of Arcadia," "Judging Amy"). So does Ron Lurie, who previously made the film, "The Contender," and created "Line of Fire" before "Commander in Chief." I wonder if network interference is the real problem?

Edited by wonderwoman
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JacquelineLHope, I'll be worried for your mental health if you watch this. I actually enjoyed relaxing my brain and watching pretty people in pretty environments and good lighting, but if you actually know how this stuff is supposed to work? Your brain may explode. Reconsider!

 

What's even ridiculous about having Bebe Neworth as a subordinate is that her job is chief of protocol. This made sense for the dinner party, yet she was also front and center on the news reports about the kids.  In the real world, aren't there many "assistant secretaries of state"?  Couldn't she be one of those?  Meanwhile, do these dinners really take place -- the entire dinner -- with a line of reporters and photographers standing to the side?  In kind of a small room?  That seemed weird.

 

Of course, why I am I nitpicking?  If I'm going to do that, I need to stop watching this.

Edited by mrsdalgliesh
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Then there's stuff that wouldn't make it through a freshman writing course like: "You don't just think outside the box, you don't even know there's a box."  Oh, Jeez Louise, shut up.

 

 

My favorite was "You have a meeting with the Chief of Staff and Secretary of Defense.....and because I know you're not an idiot but we need to lazily tell you these guys names in some way, I will tell you theirnames as if you are so busy or self absorbed you have no idea who the Chief of Staff or Sec. of Defense are."

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I only taped 30 extra minutes so missed the last 4 minutes- from right when she was naming all the wives. Help please and thanks.

As far as I remember just the husband was in her office and told her George was dead.  

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The pilot tells me that this show has no idea what it is.  Its one part trying to be the West Wing, one-part how does a woman in power handle being in power, one part how does a woman in power deal with having a family, and one part CIA thriller.

 

Its a recipe to do everything badly.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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It had its moments. Like others, I was a TWW junkie and was hoping for an intelligent political drama. Not so much, here. Vapid, pedestrian writing aimed at the pearl-clutching set, not unlike what Blue Bloods has become. Leone herself is very watchable but I didn't connect with anybody else. Once the Big Conspiracy Plot was introduced I was out and will stay out. Scandal is bad enough in that regard, but at least it has a supporting cast that's worth watching. Not so much here. And I'm honestly sick of Zeljko Ivanek, espeically playing the heavy. He was a breath of fresh air in Homicide: Life On The Street but for the last 10 years he's become less and less interesting.

 

3/10 for me, and I'm gone unless it really turns around and buzz starts to go crazy, and then maybe I'll catch up. But I honestly don't see this being a big deal unless some better writing comes to the fore.

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I just hope they don't "Mary Sue" her. For a pilot, I liked it. It engaged me enough that I'm still interested in watching. If it keeps going down the path that she always has the best plan, cleverest approach etc, it'll get old fast. (Plus they did some filming on my campus this summer, so I"m looking for location shots!).

Edited by Ms5h
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According to the Cancellation Bear, CBS shows actually get a ratings bump when the NFL runs over.

 

I think it's unfair to judge a pilot too harshly.  The network interferes with everything, and you have to say yes just to make it to a series order, and viewers want plot instead of meeting the characters in a first episode so everything is thrown against the wall just hoping something will get them interested in the second episode.

 

Every pilot season I always read that Tea Leoni is one of the most sought after talents.  I like her mostly from Spanglish, and I was really surprised when HBO passed on her fashion comedy.

 

The Good Wife has done some awfully silly things in regards to the law and realism, so I think it is a good fit.  At least it's not Homeland Season two... yet.

TGW's silly law plot lines are nothing compared to their stupid political plotlines. I had to give up TGW during the whole plot about Peter wanting to be keynote at the DNC convention. I hope this show borrows nothing from TGW personally. I like the cast but the plots are horrendous and their need to keep Chris Noth as part of the cast really ruined Alicia's character.

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I was hoping this was a bit more West Wing, and a bit less Scandal myself.  What role is Bebe Neuwirth playing? Not a big role for her in any case. I was disappointed in the pilot, but will watch a few more episodes to see if it gets better.

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Well, she was at UVA and now he's at Georgetown.  But I'm sure you're right and she was Chekov's gun.

Nice.  At least someone outside the writer's room grasps elements of the narrative.  Maybe we'll hit the jackpot and Hall will drop a Sorkin-esque snark shot at Internet criticism. It least it would be in character, covering already trodden ground and all... 

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The biggest question I had after watching this is...what happened to the dog and the horse?

 

Anyway, I really enjoyed this.  There were a few elements that I went 'hmmmm' about, but over all I thought it was interesting.  

 

Oh, and George was first introduced at the beginning of the episode when Tea was out with her friends at a restaurant for dinner.

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The simplistic characters remind me of everything i hated about Geena Davis's "Commander in Chief" from a few years back:

A high-minded female political neophyte is thrust into a highly politicized position.

Rather than recognizing that her staff is there to help, she assumes they're political hacks, and ignores or rejects, out-of-hand, every piece of potentially useful advice they offer.

Anyone who takes an opposing position will always be proved wrong, while she will always be right.

"Commander in Chief" squandered an opportunity to show a woman navigating the ambiguity of power. I'm hoping down the road "Madam Secretary" won't make the same mistake. But, after seeing the pilot, I'm not holding out much hope.

 

Bingo - the comparison to Commander in Chief is spot on.

 

That was a terrible pilot.  I know CBS is trying to sell this as a partner with The Good Wife, but that's completely insulting to TGW, which is a much more nuanced, well-acted and well-written show, even when just comparing the two pilots.

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The Good Wife has done some awfully silly things in regards to the law and realism, so I think it is a good fit.  At least it's not Homeland Season two... yet.

 

Homeland season two had some ridiculous moments, but it was still better than this pilot, which was cheesy, predictable and so network-y (can't think of another word for it).

 

 

Did anyone else hear her tell the King of Swaziland that she had 2 daughters??

 

Yes, and it seemed weird that they didn't even mention where the other daughter was (a 5 second comment about her being away at school or whatever would have sufficed.

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Surprised at the collective thumbs down.  I'm not a Tea' Leone fan and I liked it a lot.

 

Loved the snorts she shared with husband about the student groupie.  Like they've bumped up against that particular brand of apple polishing about a million times in the past. (Which they would have, IMO.  Tim Daly looks better with a little roadwear than when he was a shiny Ken doll.)

 

Really liked the writing, and the acting, when she alternated hardball/softball pitches with both the attache' in the church and the king of Swaziland.

 

Mostly I liked seeing the government sausage being made--weighing "the right thing" against approval ratings, the fourth estate, international fallout.  I have a lot more respect for the show that she followed protocol and kept her mouth closed, nodding her head at the POTUS and the Chief of Staff instead of blurting stuff out.  (Midnight texting to First Lady notwithstanding.  Booo.  But also clever.)  It made me reflect that the protocols in place to protect the President's time probably do result in a certain amount of damage by insulating him too much.

 

A particular scene from The West Wing has always stuck in my mind:  The president's pastor says, "Jed. . .er. . .is it still okay for me to call you that?" and the reply is "Let's stick with 'Mr. President.' "   I bet there's so much decorum and protocol in the White House they could all just choke on it and it's an impediment more than a help.  I liked the authenticity of including that as a huge part of the job.

 

Finally, I'm SURE that little sip of dry martini, Bebe Neuwirth, will have her share of screen time.  Yay! 

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It made me reflect that the protocols in place to protect the President's time probably do result in a certain amount of damage by insulating him too much.

 

I would think the secretary of state would get into see the president whenever necessary. Maybe not immediately, unless it's an emergency, but the same day. The SoS is America's top diplomat, after all. I know we have to have the pissing contest with the chief of staff, but I found the idea that Elizabeth had to resort to texting FLOTUS absurd.

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Surprised at the collective thumbs down.  I'm not a Tea' Leone fan and I liked it a lot.

I was slightly tolerant with it because I mentally placed it in a basket where I knew going into it that it wasn't going to resemble reality in the slightest.  That it would be chock full of cliches, and pretty shallow.  I actually am one of the rare people who actually seem to like Tea Leoni--I dunno I remember her from her two mostly forgotten early TV shows (waaaaaaayyyy before she became far more famous for being Mrs. David Duchovny) and she was actually quite good on those early shows. 

 

At the very least I expect this to be better than the show with Katherine Heigl--but that's a low bar.  Ultimately I expect both shows will eat each other (at least in terms of general impressions) and both will be gone in a few months.

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Speaking of her being Mrs. David Duchovny, I had no idea until 30 seconds ago that the two of them JUST divorced.  Like 3 months ago.  So I guess if anyone has any Tea Leoni fantasies, you can ramp 'em up again.

Edited by Kromm
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I would think the secretary of state would get into see the president whenever necessary. Maybe not immediately, unless it's an emergency, but the same day. The SoS is America's top diplomat, after all. I know we have to have the pissing contest with the chief of staff, but I found the idea that Elizabeth had to resort to texting FLOTUS absurd.

Right!  That's a point that made me ponder.  It makes sense that phone calls and texts would route to the Chief of Staff instead of pinging directly off the presidential tower.  And when C of S says, "Do not even think of making an end run around me"--what to do?  Like Bartlett & Leo McGarry--ha! my source material for all things WH--the Prez would have to trust his C of S 100% to be protecting his best interests.

 

There was the pissing contest, but I'm holding out hope that Ivan Z. isn't going to be The Big Bad.

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There DOES seem to be some confusion about what the Chief of Staff actually DOES.  This show has him basically making policy.  I mean we literally saw him telling Tea Leoni's character what to do in terms of a political decision--we didn't just see him gate-keep access to the President.

 

The actual duties of the real Chiefs of Staff vary a ton.  It's basically up to a president, and maybe to some extent the balls/force of personality of the appointee what authority that person holds.  But at it's base the Chief of Staff literally has two powers: controlling the President's schedule (the "gate-keeper" aspect), and being the ultimate boss of the White House staff.

 

Members of the President's cabinet are not White House staff members.  They are not in that organizational chart at all.  The Secretary of State, for example, is literally the head of the State Department.  The idea that the Sec. of State would have to bend to the Chief of Staff is ludicrous.  The Secretary of State is in fact the HIGHEST ranking non-elected official in the United States.  Literally.  The SoS is 4th in the line of succession to take over the Presidency--and the first in that sequence to not be an elected person.  The Chief of Staff isn't even ON that list.  Anywhere.  Ever.  


Speaking of the State Department... we need to see that Madam Secretary has an office there (it's in the Harry S Truman Building).  Her office in the White House is the adjunct one, I think, and not the main one.  

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As I pointed out in the topic for the first episode, the show seems to get the actual duties and relative authority of the Chief of Staff and the Secretary of State totally wrong.

There DOES seem to be some confusion about what the Chief of Staff actually DOES.  This show has him basically making policy.  I mean we literally saw him telling Tea Leoni's character what to do in terms of a political decision--we didn't just see him gate-keep access to the President.

 

The actual duties of the real Chiefs of Staff vary a ton.  It's basically up to a president, and maybe to some extent the balls/force of personality of the appointee what authority that person holds.  But at it's base the Chief of Staff literally has two powers: controlling the President's schedule (the "gate-keeper" aspect), and being the ultimate boss of the White House staff.

 

Members of the President's cabinet are not White House staff members.  They are not in that organizational chart at all.  The Secretary of State, for example, is literally the head of the State Department.  The idea that the Sec. of State would have to bend to the Chief of Staff is ludicrous.  The Secretary of State is in fact the HIGHEST ranking non-elected official in the United States.  Literally.  The SoS is 4th in the line of succession to take over the Presidency--and the first in that sequence to not be an elected person.  The Chief of Staff isn't even ON that list.  Anywhere.  Ever.  

Speaking of the State Department... we need to see that Madam Secretary has an office there (it's in the Harry S Truman Building).  Her office in the White House is the adjunct one, I think, and not the main one.

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My favorite was "You have a meeting with the Chief of Staff and Secretary of Defense.....and because I know you're not an idiot but we need to lazily tell you these guys names in some way, I will tell you theirnames as if you are so busy or self absorbed you have no idea who the Chief of Staff or Sec. of Defense are."

"I know their names." I'd have down a bottle of Cab to decide which of the clunker lines is the worst (no wait, maybe I should just finish off a BOX of wine).

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My favorite was "You have a meeting with the Chief of Staff and Secretary of Defense.....and because I know you're not an idiot but we need to lazily tell you these guys names in some way, I will tell you theirnames as if you are so busy or self absorbed you have no idea who the Chief of Staff or Sec. of Defense are."

Aside from the ridiculousness of the dialogue, that meeting itself was far more ridiculous. As I said in my last post, the Chief of Staff doesn't do anything even remotely like what was shown. He's not a policymaker. I doubt he'd even BE in most of the policymaking meetings with the President and the Secretary of Staff, or any of the Cabinet in fact, so it's doubly ridiculous that he'd be controlling a meeting with them WITHOUT the President there. The CoS CAN be given a shitload of power in certain administrations, but never ever is it going to include having any authority over the highest non-elected official in the United States, the 4th in line to become President,the Secretary of State. But even moreso, as I said, I doubt a CoS would even be invited to such a meeting. He'd schedule and control access to the President, sure, and that came through cartoonishly and inaccurately in the discussion about Elizabeth getting access to speak to the President, but even there the President has an actual more traditional Secretary as well to control the door and his longer term schedule is controlled by a whole department, called the Office of Scheduling and Advance. The CoS is more involved with the day to day operations of the actual White House (although the Chief Usher has a lot of that responsibility too). The CoS runs what's called the Executive Office of the President of the United States, the EoP. Tons of people work for that, from the White House Council, to the staff that run the actual offices that all of the officials maintain at the White House and in the Exec. building, to the Chief Usher and all of his Household (cleaning and maintenance staff), etc. The one big exception I recall is that technically the National Security Council, the NSC, falls under the EoP. That's the one real intersection with policymaking, but I doubt even that would put the Chief of Staff in most of those meetings, or give him any kind of authority over the Secretary of State.
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I know there will be all the comparisons to Hillary, but there have been three women Secretaries of State.  None of them had kids at home.  We only assume it is Mrs. Clinton because of her current political activity...

I thought it was because of the bleach blonde hair and the pantsuits.
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I was very disappointed by most of this. There was so much of it that made me cringe. "Oooh, she's so forthright! Oooh, she's so daring, refusing a stylist and questioning the way things work right at her first staff meeting!" I was glad they backed down from some of that in the second half, but it wasn't enough. I liked the moments between Leoni and Daly, where she shared her doubts, and when she said to her guy on the staff that she didn't feel right coming in and clearing the old staff out. There, she seemed human. The rest of it was too twee for my taste. 

 

Bebe Neuwirth in a second banana role?  I'm surprised.

 

They should have cast her in the lead, and let Leoni be an deceptively easy-going staffer, who really loves sticking to the rule book. 

 

The simplistic characters remind me of everything i hated about Geena Davis's "Commander in Chief" from a few years back:

A high-minded female political neophyte is thrust into a highly politicized position.

Rather than recognizing that her staff is there to help, she assumes they're political hacks, and ignores or rejects, out-of-hand, every piece of potentially useful advice they offer.

Anyone who takes an opposing position will always be proved wrong, while she will always be right.

"Commander in Chief" squandered an opportunity to show a woman navigating the ambiguity of power. I'm hoping down the road "Madam Secretary" won't make the same mistake. But, after seeing the pilot, I'm not holding out much hope.

I expected so much more from Barbara Hall, who created such beautifully complex characters on the much-missed, "Joan of Arcadia."

 

I agree with all of that. 

 

This was like a movie you go see and find out you already saw all the best parts on the tv previews. … I really didn't like it, and I really wanted to like it.  Dang.

 

Same here. 

 

You'd think they'd have studied The Good Wife, which is anything but a dumbed-down show.  Watching The Good Wife, where you have morally complex characters having genuinely surprising things happen to them with humor that's actually funny and suspense that's actually suspenseful made me forget I'd even watched Madam Secretary even though I'd just gotten through watching it.  The huge gap in quality between these two tonight is definitely not doing Madam Secretary any favors.

 

I remember back to the pilot of The Good Wife. The network promoted it as the wronged wife putting her life back together, and it was that but also so much more right from the beginning. Alicia got a new job because she was able to draw on her past friendship with Will, but it was clear from the first episode how uncertain she was, and the pressure she was under by coming back to the law, and to make good and move on from being a first year associate. This show doesn't have that depth yet, although they showed signs of it toward the end. I will keep watching in hopes that they develop that, but if they don't, I'd rather watch any CBS procedural, even CSI: Miami. Horatio Caine is the snarkworthy gift that keeps on giving. 

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I will keep watching in hopes that they develop that, but if they don't, I'd rather watch any CBS procedural, even CSI: Miami. Horatio Caine is the snarkworthy gift that keeps on giving.

Hee. I actually had a similar thought recently--so I submitted HoCaine and his "sunglasses on" moments for that KING OF DISPARATE TV THINGS MOUNTAIN thing. I bet if they use it, HoCaine stays up there even longer than a Friends related entry. Edited by Kromm
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Tim Daly looks better with a little roadwear than when he was a shiny Ken doll

Could not agree more! And I have a soft spot for Tea Leoni going back to The Naked Truth - loved that show. I'm hoping they get the kinks out in the next few eps. I really want to like this.

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Not great but I'll give it a chance. I was deceived by the promos, I expected the SoS to be more biting with some piss and vinegar as well; kind of a smarter Basil Fawlty. Carradine as the POTUS is bizarre; THAT'S the role they should have given to Bebe.

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I'm not sure how I feel about this. I don't find Tea Leoni at all compelling.  She only has the one volume and tone, and it's boring.  I love BeBe Neuwirth, and I have to imagine they're going to give her more to do.  I too tire or Zeljko Ivanek always being the bad guy - he really needs to find an against type role.  And tropes and bad lines everywhere.  But I didn't HATE it.  And I'm a complete West Wing freak, so I kind of expected to.  Perhaps I just had my expectations set very low.

 

I don't think BeBe could play the role as written, but man I'd love to see her in it with different writers.  Let's hope she gets a lot to do.  Her as President in SOME show would be good, but not this one, paired with Tea.  It would not work well.

 

West Wing's COS also had a large amount of control, access, and influence on policy.  And there was that whole storyline of CJ fighting to keep Hutchison in line. And a pile of White House advisors on the show.  I don't think having the COS affect policy is out of line.  I don't work there, so I don't know, but it doesn't bother me. I kind of want to go back and find the specials they aired about COSes earlier this year on...History Channel maybe?  I wonder if that would shed some light.

 

I'll probably watch a few episodes of this to see how the supporting cast develops.

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I love BeBe Neuwirth, and I have to imagine they're going to give her more to do.

I was thinking: Maybe Bebe doesn't want more to do. Maybe she's fine going into to work for a day or two and being criminally underused, picking up a regular pay check all the while.

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West Wing's COS also had a large amount of control, access, and influence on policy.  And there was that whole storyline of CJ fighting to keep Hutchison in line. And a pile of White House advisors on the show.  I don't think having the COS affect policy is out of line.  I don't work there, so I don't know, but it doesn't bother me. I kind of want to go back and find the specials they aired about COSes earlier this year on...History Channel maybe?  I wonder if that would shed some light.

There's a difference though between affecting policy and making it.  What we saw happen was this CoS telling a person who in the real world vastly exceeds them in authority what to do with a policy/deployment decision. It was played as an order--like the CoS was somehow a mini-President, when the President was too busy.  And even the Vice President isn't that.  The simple fact is the CoS can't tell any Cabinet Member what to do (not even the dinkiest ones, like The Secretary of Veterans Affairs).  The CoS isn't even technically a Cabinet member himself--he's an equivalent parallel rank (although as I said before, totally outside the succession chain).  

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I really enjoyed it. The show had me watching it as opposed to listening to it while surfing the web and every so often looking at the screen. Which for me now a days, says a lot. Yes, it has some kinks, but I like Tea Leoni so I'm willing to give it a few episodes to work those out. I think a lot of the missteps come with trying to convey that Leoni's character is not a politician. She's a former spy and therefor very unsure of her place and how to proceed. In the real world of politics, she would be eaten alive. The most unrealistic part of this for me is that the characters in positions of power aren't doing that just yet. She knew that the only way to get those kids out of Syria was the way she wanted to proceed, but politically she was unsure of how to convey that, so she watched the plan the CoS laid out go forward without really objecting to it. In the end, we see because of her former position, she was correct in her assessment of the situation. 

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The conspiracy plot turned me off, and I am tired of the cliche butting heads with the CoS. 

 

I liked it well enough for a pilot otherwise.  Conspiracy plots tend to eat their shows eventually, and drop all the other stuff that I would be wanting to see, so I don't know how long I'll stick with it if that turns out to be the case here.

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The pilot tells me that this show has no idea what it is.  Its one part trying to be the West Wing, one-part how does a woman in power handle being in power, one part how does a woman in power deal with having a family, and one part CIA thriller.

 

Its a recipe to do everything badly.

 

So true. I vote for getting rid of the CIA espionage thread of the plot ASAP. The other two plot elements at least have the potential to develop into something interesting. The CIA stuff seems unnecessary and muddies the already murky waters that is this show's plot.

 

I didn't completely hate the pilot, the first half was very slow, the Syria plot was poorly developed and the whole show was a waste of Bebe Neuwirth's considerable talents but there was enough of a spark to keep me watching for the next few weeks at least.

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