S02.E07: The Red Sowing

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The best course of action would be to use the Greyjoys, but they're not answering calls.

Even if the Greyjoys were amenable, they have the same problem that the Hightower and Lannister fleets have: they're on the other side of Westeros from Kings Landing and would have to sail all the way around the bottom of the continent to get there.  And presumably the Hightower and Lannister fleets are already on their way.  The Triachy's ships are much closer.

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The Greyjoys are IIRC en route along with the Lannister navy.

No, the Greyjoys are not en route.  They are not taking sides at the moment.

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

I can’t tell the dragons apart. Except for Seasmoke, because he’s a distinct ghostly grey, and has a mohawk. 

 

Really?  They're all very different looking.  Vhagar at the very least should be distinctive due to her size and that wattle she has.  All of the other dragons have more slender necks.

 

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Few of them had probably even seen a dragon up close and none of them would've ever seen one flame people, so while they might've known the abstract idea of death by dragon fire, they couldn't possibly have really understood it.  A good person in a desperate situation would've done their damnedest to explain it but Rhaenyra is not really a good person unless it suits her cause.

Maybe if she'd made a point of saying, before she left, that this was their last chance to turn back she might have saved a few more lives, which would have been good, but the danger would still have been abstract if Rhaenyra had explained it before it happened. In fact, I think even in the scene they might have been able to follow her out if they chose right before the real testing began, when that monster was already right there in front of them. I'm not defending Rhaenyra's character--her goal was finding dragonriders out of that crowd, not preventing casualties, and that's why the guards were told to keep everyone in there as long as possible (the only thing I would really consider a surprise to the smallfolk--though some were still able to push through and if they were near the guards, they were away from the dragon). But these people have grown up in a world where dragons are the biggest, scariest things in the world, and it seems silly to think that they need somebody to explain to them that the giant fire-breathing maneater might very easily kill you even by accident. I mean, I've never seen a tiger attack anyone in person, but I'm scared to get close to one. 

Even the talk of knowing how to mitigate the risk etc. seems useless given the situation. Vermithor wasn't stomping, burning and eating people because they weren't following proper etiquette. Running away from a dragon doesn't always result in a roasting. The first guy he burned did exactly what Rhaenyra did. The previous claiming-gone-wrong also resulted in several casualties, and we saw that the people who spend their lives caring for these creatures carry knives to slit their own throat rather than burn alive. There's no real trick to staying alive. 

[Dobian]

I liked Hugh's strategy. Let Verminthor clear out the competition and then step in and claim the prize.

[bluvelvet]

I think Vermithor picked Hugh out from the crowd earlier on, on rewatch you see him looking at Hugh. Hugh is the bastard son of true born Saera Targaryen which makes him the grandson on King Jahaerys who was Vermithor’s last rider. Not that familial relationship makes a difference as we saw with Rhaena.  Vermithor didn’t have to roast those people but he was just in a snacking mood. He already knew who is wanted. 
 

Ulf didn’t step on a dragon egg, per the show dragon eggs are really hard similar to dragon scales. I think he stepped in mud or whatever substance was surrounding the eggs.  
 

If Addam doesn’t have any Targ blood via Corlys then it’s probably from his mother. 

I like Rhaena but I wish they would’ve made her a spitfire. Yes she can’t claim a dragon but make her find another skill like fighting with a knife or something. A warrior woman. She just comes across as depressed. 
 

Well, I do think that the small folk should’ve know on some level they could get killed, since it’s a dragon. I do think Rhaenyra could’ve done a better job warning them similar to what she did Ser Steffon. She could’ve explicity said you could die, but I also think they were so desperate that they were willing to take a chance of death to get elevated out of their dire situation. 

If Rhaenyra thinks this war will be bloodless than she really is being foolish. People will die and it will be brutal. At this point, neither side can surrender because if they do, the other side will kill them and their families.

As for Aegon, he could just have just ordered Aemond arrested he is still the king. However he NEEDS Aemond who is his best player. Shout out to TGC, he’s fantastic. 

[proserpina65]

11 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Ulf didn’t step on a dragon egg, per the show dragon eggs are really hard similar to dragon scales. I think he stepped in mud or whatever substance was surrounding the eggs.  

I imagined they're not that hard when the dragon lays them but they harden over time.  (Like with Anne McCaffrey's dragons.)  I still think he must've stepped on an egg because I thought I heard something crack.  Will pay more attention on rewatch.

11 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I like Rhaena but I wish they would’ve made her a spitfire. Yes she can’t claim a dragon but make her find another skill like fighting with a knife or something. A warrior woman. She just comes across as depressed. 

It's like her whole personality is "My dragon egg didn't hatch, wah!".  I get that it must've sucked because clearly everyone values her less because she doesn't have a dragon, especially her own father, but give her something else to do.  At least Aemond got to train with the sword and study history & philosophy before he claimed Vhagar.

11 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

If Rhaenyra thinks this war will be bloodless than she really is being foolish. People will die and it will be brutal. At this point, neither side can surrender because if they do, the other side will kill them and their families.

As for Aegon, he could just have just ordered Aemond arrested he is still the king. However he NEEDS Aemond who is his best player. Shout out to TGC, he’s fantastic. 

I agree on both points.  And as much as I dislike Aegon, I'll admit he'd have been boring as hell in the hands of a lesser actor.

Edited July 30 by proserpina65

[baldryanr]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I imagined they're not that hard when the dragon lays them but they harden over time.  (Like with Anne McCaffrey's dragons.)  I still think he must've stepped on an egg because I thought I heard something crack.

Possibly, but we saw last season that dragon eggs aren't just lying out in the open air - they're encased in something Daemon had to crack open with a pick axe.

12 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It's like her whole personality is "My dragon egg didn't hatch, wah!".  I get that it must've sucked because clearly everyone values her less because she doesn't have a dragon, especially her own father, but give her something else to do.  At least Aemond got to train with the sword and study history & philosophy before he claimed Vhagar.

I'm not sure she could have gotten the training since most fathers aren't as progressive as Ned Stark and Brienne's dad.  Since she grew up on Dragonstone Daemon could have brought her along whenever he went spelunking for dragon eggs and whatever else he did, but he seemed quite content to ignore her existence.

[proserpina65]

10 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

I'm not sure she could have gotten the training since most fathers aren't as progressive as Ned Stark and Brienne's dad. 

I wasn't think she'd have been trained in fighting or anything like that.  She probably did get some instruction in what they love to term "the feminine arts" like Sansa did.  They could've shown us something of that, even just her doing some needlework or sewing, and it would've given her some personality.  Like "at least she has a hobby".

It seems like there could've been a small opportunity to flesh out her character earlier than late in season 2.

 

Edited July 30 by proserpina65

[Oscirus]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It's like her whole personality is "My dragon egg didn't hatch, wah!".  I get that it must've sucked because clearly everyone values her less because she doesn't have a dragon, especially her own father, but give her something else to do.  At least Aemond got to train with the sword and study history & philosophy before he claimed Vhagar.

 

 

The season 1 Aemond fight was based on the fact that she had dibs on her mother's dragon and nobody else was allowed to claim her and now Rhaena's abandoning her duty to go dragon chasing. I really do wish they wouldve shown there's more ways a targ can help out in the war than to ride a dragon, but apparently not, we'll get the "uplifting" story of her riding the Vale dragon.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But these people have grown up in a world where dragons are the biggest, scariest things in the world, and it seems silly to think that they need somebody to explain to them that the giant fire-breathing maneater might very easily kill you even by accident. I mean, I've never seen a tiger attack anyone in person, but I'm scared to get close to one. 

It seems like you're saying that the bastards just knowing there is a possibility of death is sufficient information to know whether to take the risk. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you but that's how I read it.

This is how I differentiate that. A zookeeper may work around crocodiles or big cats with a knowledge that informs their judgment how about best to move around the enclosure and how best to avoid mishaps that gives them a reasonable degree of confidence that they would leave that enclosure without injury. That zookeeper was a lay person at some point. They had to acquire a basic knowledge and safety training before being permitted to enter the animal enclosures or handle animals. These are dangerous animals after all. We've all been taught that these are ferocious animals that can kill us. You couldn't imagine a zoo or any organization that handles dangerous animals permitting people to work near the animals without proper education or training, because there is always a risk of injury or death when they take the job.

To summarize: If you don't want to get close to the tiger, then don't. However, if you want to be near the tiger and work with the tigers, here's a list of things you need to learn and be trained on before we let you anywhere near the tiger because tigers are dangerous.

But you get none of that, and then the zookeeper leaves you in the enclosure. You can't even tell the dragon to 'be calm' in High Valyrian. 😂

Edited July 30 by AntFTW

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

They had to acquire a basic knowledge and safety training before being permitted to enter the animal enclosures or handle animals.

Much like the Galactic Empire, the concept of OSHA is ill-formed in Westeros

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, paigow said:

Much like the Galactic Empire, the concept of OSHA is ill-formed in Westeros

 

I wonder which house would be the OSHA equivalent in Westeros

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its time for Corlys to formally acknowledge his sons and even legitimize them. Not only is it pretty obvious to everyone who Alyn and Addam are to him, but with his kids dead (to his knowledge) and heir gone as well, legitimizing his two loyal sons, one of whom is a dragonrider, seems like a good call. 

Corlys had his granddaughters and Baela will marry Jace. And because he doesn't value blood relatives, Jace and Joffrey are regaded as his grandsons. 

Of course there is a problem that his heir should be "salt and see" in order to command his ships, and Alyn is such.  

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

 

Really?  They're all very different looking.  Vhagar at the very least should be distinctive due to her size and that wattle she has.  All of the other dragons have more slender necks.

 

I don't think they're very distinctive.  But, Vhagar has holes in her wings and none of the others do.

Wasn't Hugh the guy who was building the scorpions for Kings Landing?  If so, then Team Black now has a new dragon rider and someone who can build the weapons to shoot down Team Green's dragons.

And I think Alicent's "camping trip" is an excuse to intercept her father comin' through the woods on his way back to Kings Landing.

[Oscirus]

39 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Corlys had his granddaughters and Baela will marry Jace. And because he doesn't value blood relatives, Jace and Joffrey are regaded as his grandsons. 

Of course there is a problem that his heir should be "salt and see" in order to command his ships, and Alyn is such.  

 

Though it would be weird for Rhaena at least, if he's still into the whole name thing, he could still betroth Joffrey to Rhaena.  Hard to say since Im not sure where his head is at at the moment. 

[proserpina65]

40 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I don't think they're very distinctive.  But, Vhagar has holes in her wings and none of the others do.

To start with, they're all different colors.  (I'm not being sarcastic, that is a good place to start.)

Vhagar is greenish brown (or, as I like to say, sludge colored), huge, and has a distinct waddle, plus lots of wrinkles, as befits a lady of her age.

Caraxes has a very, very long, wormlike neck and is red.  Hence his nickname the Bloodwyrm.

Syrax is yellow and quite compact.

Vermithor is bronze, large and rather spiky.

Silverwing is silver, with a triangular head and slender body.

Sunfyre (who may or may not be dead) had golden scales and pink wing membranes and was also slender.

Meleys (r.i.p.) was red and had long spikes around her head.

Arrax was little and kind of pinkish.

Moondancer is pale and slender. 

I haven't seen enough of Vermax to get a fix on him, but he was greenish in his dragon pit scene in season 1.

Same with Dreamfyre, although I did get the impression that she might be bluish.

I hope this helps.  I'd post a link to pictures but there might be info on future happenings and I don't want to spoil anything.  I accidentally did that to myself by looking up Vhagar's previous riders.

40 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Wasn't Hugh the guy who was building the scorpions for Kings Landing?  If so, then Team Black now has a new dragon rider and someone who can build the weapons to shoot down Team Green's dragons.

True, but he's one man so unless Rhaenyra has other blacksmiths and people who can design scorpions (which she might), I don't know how much help he'd be in that department.

 

Oops, I forgot Seasmoke.  He's dark gray, with a triangular head and spikes around his head which look like unruly hair and a chin beard.

Edited July 30 by proserpina65

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I wasn't think she'd have been trained in fighting or anything like that.  She probably did get some instruction in what they love to term "the feminine arts" like Sansa did.  They could've shown us something of that, even just her doing some needlework or sewing, and it would've given her some personality.  Like "at least she has a hobby".

It seems like there could've been a small opportunity to flesh out her character earlier than late in season 2.

 

I kept kept wondering during the ep why they didn't base her character around the idea that she's meant to tame a wild dragon. Like most obviously, make her wild herself so it fits. Or even make her somebody who's caring in an out of the box way so it seems like she's meant to care for a lonely, fierce stray. Just anything to make it a character story that she'd feel this dragon is meant to be hers like Aemond did with Vhaegar, where she just figured it was her mom's dragon and therefore hers.

Maybe the idea is that she's forgotten and wandering by herself through life like the dragon, but that doesn't come out when she's whiny about it instead of finding things of her own to do like the wild dragon presumably is.

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It seems like you're saying that the bastards just knowing there is a possibility of death is sufficient information to know whether to take the risk. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you but that's how I read it.

This is how I differentiate that. A zookeeper may work around crocodiles or big cats with a knowledge that informs their judgment how about best to move around the enclosure and how best to avoid mishaps that gives them a reasonable degree of confidence that they would leave that enclosure without injury. That zookeeper was a lay person at some point. They had to acquire a basic knowledge and safety training before being permitted to enter the animal enclosures or handle animals. These are dangerous animals after all. We've all been taught that these are ferocious animals that can kill us. You couldn't imagine a zoo or any organization that handles dangerous animals permitting people to work near the animals without proper education or training, because there is always a risk of injury or death when they take the job.

To summarize: If you don't want to get close to the tiger, then don't. However, if you want to be near the tiger and work with the tigers, here's a list of things you need to learn and be trained on before we let you anywhere near the tiger because tigers are dangerous.

But none of that has anything to do with the people here, because they are not applying for a job as dragonkeepers. They are there to stand in front of a dragon and claim it. it's a fairy tale test of character with no more way to prepare for it than pulling a sword out of a stone. (Except the stone doesn't leap up and crush you if you fail.) 

Sure, the aspirants don't know exactly how a dragon will reject them if it does, but neither does anyone else, because they're unpredictable animals. It's more like Brienne and Jamie thrown into the bear pit than someone learning to work at the Crocodile house. Teaching them to say, "Be calm," in High Valerian might have given them some confidence going in, but they just would have died screaming, "Be calm!" in High Valerian. Neither Hugh nor Ulf (or Addam) had any more training than they did. 

 

Edited July 30 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 Its too bad that Rhaenyra had to sacrifice so many innocent people to get her dragon riders, she couldn't have at least let them go one at a time instead of putting everyone in there at once like an all you can barbeque buffet? The guards couldn't even let them get to safety? 

If they had gone one by one to meet their luck, how many would have tried? Three? Five? 

As for the guards closing the gate, they had to protect themselves from harm.

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't believe they were tricked but Rhaenyra definitely downplayed the danger of what she was asking them to do for her, and for that, I absolutely judge her.  Because to most of these people, a dragon is still mostly an abstract idea since I can't imagine many of them had much contact with Vhagar or Sunfyre.  Sure, they understand on one level that it's a beast who breathes fire, but they've never seen it happen and don't quite connect the idea of it with the actual horror.  I think that if Rhaenyra was as good a person as she (or probably more accurately, the showrunner & writers) want us to believe she is, she had the responsibility to be very clear about what could happen and she wasn't.

 

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

  Few of them had probably even seen a dragon up close and none of them would've ever seen one flame people, so while they might've known the abstract idea of death by dragon fire, they couldn't possibly have really understood it.  A good person in a desperate situation would've done their damnedest to explain it but Rhaenyra is not really a good person unless it suits her cause.

I don't think it's nothing to do with Rhaenyra being a good person or not (of course she isn't for no good person can succeed in such a world).

But she isn't bad, either (athough we can't know if she will become such). She is simply a ruler and at least she had started to act like a ruler during the war: she does what's necessary in order to win.

Instead, Daemon is shown to be unnecessary cruel.

 

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's nothing to do with Rhaenyra being a good person or not (of course she isn't for no good person can succeed in such a world).

But she isn't bad, either (athough we can't know if she will become such). She is simply a ruler and at least she had started to act like a ruler during the war: she does what's necessary in order to win.

Instead, Daemon is shown to be unnecessary cruel.

 

 

Rhaenyra is getting into her gray cult leader phase which makes her infinitely more interesting than the character that wanted peace at all costs. I have a sense that when she meets up with Damon, his time at Harrenhal will have changed him, resulting in a sort of moral shift between him and Rhaenyra.

[Roseanna]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:08 AM, AimingforYoko said:

What a coincidence, the two commoners we met earlier in the season happened to have the golden tickets.

Well, that's due to the traditional storytelling: every character has to have a role in the story. 

Of course, if the writers had wanted to make the scene truly terrible, Ulf and Hugh would have been among the offers.      

[Roseanna]

5 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Rhaenyra is getting into her gray cult leader phase which makes her infinitely more interesting than the character that wanted peace at all costs. 

Not all costs. She wasn't willing to accept Aegon as king although she was offered Dragonstone. Her decisions was understandable, though - she has about 20 years regarded the throne as her right, it's become a part of herself.  

[baldryanr]

6 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

As for the guards closing the gate, they had to protect themselves from harm.

Some of the guards were roasted right along with the panicked masses, so they really should have just followed Rhaenyra and locked everyone in when they had the chance.

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But none of that has anything to do with the people here, because they are not applying for a job as dragonkeepers. They are there to stand in front of a dragon and claim it.

No, but they are there to be dragon riders and even dragon riders learn about dragons before attempting claim a dragon. Dragon riders are generally not lay people trying to claim a dragon, unlike the bastards.

They had no idea what “claiming a dragon” would actually entail. They don’t know how dragons are claimed. All they know going in is that there is a risk of death.

Edited July 30 by AntFTW

[proserpina65]

22 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

As for the guards closing the gate, they had to protect themselves from harm.

They were blocking the exit and shoving people back when Vermithor started flaming.  They weren't protecting themselves.  They were there to prevent people from leaving.

24 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's nothing to do with Rhaenyra being a good person or not (of course she isn't for no good person can succeed in such a world).

But she isn't bad, either (athough we can't know if she will become such). She is simply a ruler and at least she had started to act like a ruler during the war: she does what's necessary in order to win.

Instead, Daemon is shown to be unnecessary cruel.

Oh, she's no Daemon, that's for sure, but her whole schtick about not wanting the throne just to be queen but it being about protecting the realm is her self-centered justification for war.  She certainly believes she's a good person but she's just as ruthless as Daemon in her own way.

Honestly, there are very few good people on this show.  Helaena, the various children and Baela & Rhaena, and that's about it.  Maybe Ser Simon and Lord Tully.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure, the aspirants don't know exactly how a dragon will reject them if it does, but neither does anyone else, because they're unpredictable animals. It's more like Brienne and Jamie thrown into the bear pit than someone learning to work at the Crocodile house.

Well, yes… the same thing still applies. That’s my point. This is like throwing the bastards in a bear pit with Rhaenyra not even giving them a sparring sword and definitely no armor, further diminishing their already low chance of actually surviving.

Even zookeepers or animal handlers deal with unpredictable animals no matter what they’ve been trained to do. Throwing on someone on a bull that’s never been taught or trained on how to ride a bull, or what to do once the bull flings them off because bulls are unpredictable is generally not a good idea so you'd at least inform them on the basics of bullriding and some tips and tricks that would maybe save their life if it comes to it.

You don’t put someone in a crocodile pit without giving them some form of knowledge or training about crocodiles. You can’t teach every scenario that could go wrong, but you can give basic knowledge to help prepare them.

Edited July 30 by AntFTW

[bluvelvet]

This probably wasn’t Rhaenyra’s thought but she just got rid of a significant portion of the Targ bastards that could potentially contest Jacaerys’ claim.  

Edited July 30 by bluvelvet

[iMonrey]

5 hours ago, aghst said:

Some podcasts point out that Raynera had the guards block the exit from the pit, in case some of the wannabe dragon riders had second thoughts.

That might be the first evil move she makes, other than screwing Cole and then her uncle.  Yeah I know, incest is encouraged in the family but even Damon initially stopped himself.

We don't know that Rhaenyra "ordered" the guards to block the exit when the dragon began to wipe them all out. Probably, but not necessarily - it might have been their natural instinct. But it didn't make much difference - you can see that some of them broke through anyway, and then the guards themselves were roasted.

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Silverwing is silver, with a triangular head and slender body.

She (?) didn't look silver. She looked black to me, both in the dragon cave and while flying over Kings Landing. And I was expecting silver, and looking for it, thinking maybe silver streaks on her wings? But nope, just very dark.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:17 PM, CherryMalotte said:

Vermithor to Hugh - rubmynoserubmynoserubmynoserubmynose.... 

Roasting and crunching hoomans aside, I promise I am a Very Good Boy. Vermy was hungry! All doggos lose it a little bit at dinner/snack time.

I absolutely LOVED the Wild West dragon-off at the beginning.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 10:24 PM, bluvelvet said:

You just know Syrax and Seasmoke were talking lol. I really enjoyed this episode because it had more dragons. Also loved how they each sounded different. 

Syrax: Yo Seasmoke, whattup. It’s been a minute 

Seasmoke : I had some things to do 

Syrax: Who dis? You can’t just claim random humans ?

Seasmoke: naah man, they were trying to slap some rando on me, Sy. I had to go find mine. This one smells like Laenor 

Syrax : well, are you with us or against us?

Seasmoke : naah we good. See he’s kneeling 

Syrax: whew thank you. Would’ve been real awkward in the dragon pit if we had to throw some hands/wings?

This is absolutely hilarious! And yes, I loved the draggos hooting and howling and snorting at each other.

I wanna dragon! *stamps foot a la Veruca Salt* I would take the risk....

 

On 7/28/2024 at 10:29 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

Oscar Tully for baddest badass of them all. 

He was so impressive! What a smart little lordling, he had obviously had time to think over his earlier encounter with Daemon and had sized him up. Very clever to think of a way to uphold his oath, keep the loyalty of his vassals and keep Daemon in line. He must have learned well from his grandsire.

RIP Lord Blackwood, the erstwhile tiny lord/Rhaenyra suitor who kicked ass and took names when insulted at court.

God, Aegon's torture was uncomfortably well-acted. It was hard to tell--was he "just" burned or did he lose limbs? And I wonder what Larys's sadistic plan for him is.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 10:43 PM, KristenR said:

When she was floating in the lake and looking up, I thought that she was going to be the one to discover there were new dragon riders. But no. Turns out her story was she just needed a spa day?

Relatable.

 

On 7/29/2024 at 9:21 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I know she was in a lake but it would’ve been funny if a shark had eaten Alicent as she floated on the water.

There are lake sharks. They live in Lake Nicaragua. That said, I was wondering how a high-born girl like Alicent knew how to swim?

[Oscirus]

Sigh, another year another leak. This is just to tell people to be careful because the finale episode has once again leaked and spoilers are already all over tik tok reddit and twitter

[millennium]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:32 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Reminded me a bit of the late, great Lady Mormont.

Reminded me more than a bit of Tyrion Lannister.

Finally, a worthy episode.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Oh, she's no Daemon, that's for sure, but her whole schtick about not wanting the throne just to be queen but it being about protecting the realm is her self-centered justification for war.  She certainly believes she's a good person but she's just as ruthless as Daemon in her own way.

She can't be different, being who she is in the position she is.

What I didn't earlier like in her, was her sense of entitlement - she did as she pleased without any thought of consequences and spent years without any preparation for succession.

[jeansheridan]

19 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's nothing to do with Rhaenyra being a good person or not (of course she isn't for no good person can succeed in such a world).

But she isn't bad, either (athough we can't know if she will become such). She is simply a ruler and at least she had started to act like a ruler during the war: she does what's necessary in order to win.

I agree with your thinking. She can't be a queen at war without getting her hands bloody. She did the hard thing. I don't know if she actually feels bad for what happened. She has a decent poker face. 

I don't know if Rhynaera is good at sizing people but I think we have been shown a few examples of her reading people fairly well and then making very bad calls. Christian Cole...good soldier but bad ex! Very bad ex. She managed her marriage well and seemingly with respect. She didn't kill him to clear the way for Daemon. 

She sees Daemon for what he is. 

But other people? Not sure she handles other people well. She's barely had a conversation with Corylis on the show. He is her FIL! Maybe the writers could do less staring at the horizon and more letting these characters talk.

For example would it have killed them to write a scene with Eamond and Haelena talking? She's had three major traumas and I think he would attempt to comfort her. 

But no, we get Alicient floating.  

[millennium]

How come nobody from the Greens' side noticed the mass exodus of white-haired bastards flooding the beach at King's Landing?  Or better yet, the flotilla of food ships washing up to the beach (apparently carrying so much food the starving people could afford to throw vegetables at Alicent and Helaena)?   How come Larys' whisperers didn't hear about Rhaenyra's recruitment attempt when people in the taverns were all but singing drinking songs about it?   Epic security failures.

Edited July 31 by millennium

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 7/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, goldilocks said:

Which two dragons were those at the end near Rhaenyra? I guess one was Syrax. Who was the other one? They both seemed to be the same color. 

Syrax was next to Rhaenyra. Silverwing, with her new rider Ulf, was on the far tower. The other dragon with them was Vermithor, the Bronze Fury with Hugh as his rider. Fun fact: Syrax and SeaSmoke was hatched by eggs from Silverwing!

[Lady S.]

On 7/28/2024 at 9:32 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Reminded me a bit of the late, great Lady Mormont.

I was thinking his future half-Tully descendant, Robb Stark. Oscar's shorter and probably younger than s1 Robb, but they have similar curly hair and big confidence after calling the banners. We did see the riverlords questioning him because of his youth, which I think helps explain why he didn't feel he could declare for a side in this civil war and call his banners until he had total authority as official lord. That's like how Robb was reluctant to call the banners as acting lord when Theon first urged him to in s1, only doing so when the Lannisters struck first by invading the riverlands and arresting Ned.

On 7/29/2024 at 7:15 AM, baldryanr said:

Jace may have come across like an elitist snob, but he's right to be concerned about all of these bastards claiming dragons that are either equal to or stronger than the other Black dragons.  Even if they didn't have a choice, this could easily backfire when the power starts going to their heads.

Right, the mongrel slur was uncalled for and it's true they're really in no position to turn away dragonriders, but he did have a point about the precariousness of his positon. His dragon was the one fig leaf making people ignore his obvious Strong heritage, but if any Targ bastard can claim a dragon, what's to ensure his special positon as heir? People right here are questioning the loyalty of these strangers, so I don't get arguing the danger isn't real. Being raised as a prince and insulted as a bastard, it makes sense he would not want to be associated with lowborn bastards. He's had to tell himself he's different, better than other Targ bastards because unlike them, both of his parents are highborn, his mother the Queen and his bio father a great knight, who was heir to Harrenhal and son of the Hand of the King. He doesn't want to identify with bastards born in brothels of uncertain parentage. And with his remarks about hair color, he has to have complicated feelings about his legitimate, Valyrian-haired half-brothers. (I've seen it noted that when they left Dragonstone with Rhaena, he only said goodbye to Joffrey, not l'il Aegon and l'il Viserys.) Rhaenyra thinks it's enough that he's her eldest son, but her own problems should have taught her that being named heir and supported by the monarch cannot guarantee a smooth succession. By remarrying and having sons with an arguably better royal claim than her firstborn's, and just completely ignoring the possibility of another contested succession, she's doing exactly what her father did to her. And now she sidelining Jace in favor of her new girlfriend, which is also what Viserys did with Alicent after Aemma's death. (Even Jon Snow initially thought he was better than his lowborn brothers at the Wall.)

On 7/29/2024 at 6:48 AM, Haleth said:

I loved the scene of Silverwing meeting Ulf.  She was so playful, like a big overgrown puppy.  Who's a good girl?

It reminded me of Sunfyre booping Aegon. Some dragons just like 'em drunk and stupid, I guess.

Updated character guide.

[millennium]

38 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Some dragons just like 'em drunk and stupid, I guess.

I don't much like Ulf as a character.  He seems a buffoon, an impression cemented by his slapstick ride over King's Landing.   I haven't read the books so perhaps that is the way Martin intended it, but I think the character would be more at home in a Tolkien production.

44 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

And now she sidelining Jace in favor of her new girlfriend, which is also what Viserys did with Alicent after Aemma's death.

Maybe she's freaked out that Jace looks older in every new episode.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, millennium said:

but I think the character would be more at home in a Tolkien production.

Ulf would be the dwarf who even Bilbo abandons when chased by orcs

[paigow]

Clearly, the smart genes in the Tully family tree skipped Edmure  

[meep.meep]

On 7/30/2024 at 1:01 PM, AntFTW said:

 

They had no idea what “claiming a dragon” would actually entail. They don’t know how dragons are claimed. All they know going in is that there is a risk of death.

If the dragons understand Valyrian, they could have taught them a few useful phrases in that language as a first step.

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

If the dragons understand Valyrian, they could have taught them a few useful phrases in that language as a first step.

Right! Knowing those few words that few words that Rhaenyra used to calm Vermithor when she called him might have been the difference the life and death; or the difference between the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do.

Have these people ever heard any words in High Valyrian? Do they know dragons respond to commands in High Valyrian? Probably not.

[baldryanr]

To be fair to Rhaenyra, Silverwing and Seasmoke were perfectly happy to pick riders who had no idea how to speak a word of Valyrian, or do anything other than just cower in fear. 

In retrospect, maybe she shouldn't have started them off with "perhaps the most fierce" dragon nicknamed the Bronze Fury. 

[Lady S.]

On 7/30/2024 at 10:48 AM, proserpina65 said:

I think that if Rhaenyra was as good a person as she (or probably more accurately, the showrunner & writers) want us to believe she is, she had the responsibility to be very clear about what could happen and she wasn't.

In the Inside the Ep, Ryan Condal compares the sowing to a ritual sacrifice and says the idea behind Rhaenyra's speech (which was Emma D'Arcy's idea) was a cult leader hyping up dragonpower after her cult-like dragonkeepers refused to take part. (Guess Addam's line about the gods calling him to greater things really went to her head. I think Rhaenyra believes the Old Valyrian gods are blessing her cause with worthy dragonriders.) So I don't think this is a case like Rhaenys casually killing bystanders in the dragonpit where the writers and actor misread their own work. Most of these royals pretty consistently dgaf about the smallfolk from Rhaenyra and Laenor allowing Daemon to kill a servant in Laenor's place, to Rhaenys escaping through the dragonpit with considerable collateral damage, to Alicent having Larys burn Mysaria's house down (which the White Worm escaped from, but there were probably other people inside) and torture/kill all her servants who reported to Mysaria, to Aegon indiscriminately hanging all the ratcatchers, to Aemond closing the city gates and replying "so?" when told of his subjects' discontent, but Rhaenyra having her guards stop people from fleeing dragonfire really is a new despicable low.

I admit I'd forgotten that Vhagar is meant to be too big for the dragonpit. Aemond's running leap onto horseback sure was impressive, but the distance struck me as another weakness. A dragonrider who actually knew what they were doing could have fried Aemond and his horse before reaching Vhagar.

I like to think that any Valyrian blood is helpful to bond with a dragon, so Corlys could've claimed one if he wasn't so busy being a boat guy. Before this, I think the Targs were much more restrictive about who had access to dragons and their eggs to avoid overmighty vassals. In fact, I think Laenor having a dragon is more proof that he was considered a potential future monarch until the Great Council passed him over along with his mother. (Rhaenyra's mother Aemma was also a female-line Targ but never rode a dragon.) We don't know how "pure" blood of the dragon really needs to be to have power but I think this dragon econimizing would explain their preferred practice of keeping it in the family.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

To be fair to Rhaenyra, Silverwing and Seasmoke were perfectly happy to pick riders who had no idea how to speak a word of Valyrian, or do anything other than just cower in fear.

And in fairness to the bastards, they weren’t introduced to Vermithor the same way Seasmoke and Silverwing were introduced to their riders. Vermithor didn’t just bump into his rider by happenstance. Vermithor was called to them in High Valyrian and was commanded in High Valyrian.

I’m sure Rhaenyra calms Syrax in Valyrian. Knowing a couple of Valyrian commands might have increased some odds of survival. Just saying.

Edited July 31 by AntFTW

[sistermagpie]

On 7/30/2024 at 4:01 PM, AntFTW said:

They had no idea what “claiming a dragon” would actually entail. They don’t know how dragons are claimed. All they know going in is that there is a risk of death.

This seems like absolutely all there was to know. 

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

If the dragons understand Valyrian, they could have taught them a few useful phrases in that language as a first step.

 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Right! Knowing those few words that few words that Rhaenyra used to calm Vermithor when she called him might have been the difference the life and death; or the difference between the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do.

 

I don't get how knowing any words of High Valyrian would have helped at all.

Seems like it would make it almost more of a joke to me, but mmv.

 

[AntFTW]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This seems like absolutely all there was to know. 

Ok. I disagree. If someone is recruiting me for the job of dragonrider, or any dangerous job, and the only thing they tell me about the job description is "you can get hurt or die in the onboarding process", I think a little more info or guidance would be helpful so that can I reduce my odds of harm. I don't think that's too much to ask.

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't get how knowing any words of High Valyrian would have helped at all.

Seems like it would make it almost more of a joke to me, but mmv.

But Rhaenyra knew enough to use High Valyrian to calm this dragon, and also knew enough about this dragon to know when to leave. Two very useful pieces of knowledge that helped her survive in the presence of this dragon.

I don't know how else to paint the picture that people who are knowledgeable of dragons have better chances of surviving in the presence of dragons like the highborn Targaryens and the dragonkeepers, much better than the bastards who know nothing about dragons. I don't get why just having a little knowledge about a deadly animal that you're about to encounter wouldn't help. I'm not saying they wouldn't have died, but going into a potentially deadly situation informed is better than going into a potentially deadly situation uninformed.

If only knowing there is a risk of death enough to know whether they should try to be dragonriders, why is that not enough for the highborn Targaryens? Why do they continue to take the risk of being around dragons, even unclaimed dragons? Why doesn't knowing there is a risk of death stop them?

Why doesn't the risk of death stop Rhaenyra from coming face-to-face with Vermithor? Why did Rhaenyra feel so confident to call Vermithor when she also faces that a risk of death?

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[paigow]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't get how knowing any words of High Valyrian would have helped at all.

It would have been hilarious to show these bastards in a Valyrian classroom scene... then the dragons completely confused by incomprehensible commands that soon gives way to rage-flaming 

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

And in fairness to the bastards, they weren’t introduced to Vermithor the same way Seasmoke and Silverwing were introduced to their riders. Vermithor didn’t just bump into his rider by happenstance. Vermithor was called to them in High Valyrian and was commanded in High Valyrian.

I’m sure Rhaenyra calms Syrax in Valyrian. Knowing a couple of Valyrian commands might have increased some odds of survival. Just saying.

I think the problem was that a dragon known as the Bronze Fury, said to be likely the fiercest was probably going to be a meanie no matter what. Ser Steffon speaking Valyrian to Seasmoke didn't save him, while Vermithor was eventually won around by Hugh just screaming "COME ON" in his face. It sure does say something about Rhaenyra's priorities, though, that she chose to start with the biggest, baddest dragon, rather than Silverwing, who appears to have a better temperment.

21 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

God, Aegon's torture was uncomfortably well-acted. It was hard to tell--was he "just" burned or did he lose limbs? And I wonder what Larys's sadistic plan for him is.

He appears to have all four limbs, but he also has multiple broken bones. I don't think someone in this condition should be trying to walk again so soon, but Larys isn't doing this to be sadistic. He just needs Aegon ruling again because Aemond doesn't like him.

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I think the problem was that a dragon known as the Bronze Fury, said to be likely the fiercest was probably going to be a meanie no matter what. Ser Steffon speaking Valyrian to Seasmoke didn't save him, while Vermithor was eventually won around by Hugh just screaming "COME ON" in his face.

I got that, but my point is not really about the High Valyrian specifically. It's about the general knowledge of dragons that keeps people who are frequently around dragons alive, and that may include High Valyrian commands.

9 minutes ago, paigow said:

It would have been hilarious to show these bastards in a Valyrian classroom scene... then the dragons completely confused by incomprehensible commands that soon gives way to rage-flaming 

That could've been a blooper at least. 😂

Edited August 1 by AntFTW

[Lady S.]

Oh, btw, this was our first ep this season without Criston Cole. I'm sure all his many loyal fans must have missed him dearly.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

Ok. I disagree. If someone is recruiting me for the job of dragonrider, or any dangerous job, and the only thing they tell me about the job description is "you can get hurt or die in the onboarding process", I think a little more info or guidance would be helpful so that can I reduce my odds of harm. I don't think that's too much to ask.

But there is no info that will reduce your odds of harm in this case. Saying there are was would be lying. 

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

But Rhaenyra knew enough to use High Valyrian to calm this dragon, and also knew enough about this dragon to know when to leave. Two very useful pieces of knowledge that helped her survive in the presence of this dragon.

 

Seems more like her blood/scent was what protected her, not her knowledge of Valyrian. The dragon just recognized her as a worthy dragon rider. 

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

I don't know how else to paint the picture that people who are knowledgeable of dragons have better chances of surviving in the presence of dragons like the highborn Targaryens and the dragonkeepers, much better than the bastard who know nothing about dragons. I don't get why just having a little knowledge about a deadly animal that you're about to encounter wouldn't help.

The problem is that painting a picture gives the wrong impression. Having more knowledge and some tips seems like it would be helpful. That's logical. Dragon keepers do, of course, learn how to behave around dragons as servants to them. 

But given what we've actually seen about a claiming situation, those tips aren't going to help. Ser Steffon did exactly what Rhaenyra did with Seasmoke, and Seasmoke responded by not only roasting Ser Steffon, but the handlers nearby. Claiming a dragon means presenting yourself for judgement by the dragon and that's it. It's not like bringing it food without angering it.

Note, after all, how Vermithor did not roast Hugh. 

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

If only knowing there is a risk of death enough to know whether they should try to be dragonriders, why is that not enough for the highborn Targaryens? Why do they continue to take the risk of being around dragons, even unclaimed dragons? Why doesn't knowing there is a risk of death stop them?

Why doesn't the risk of death stop Rhaenyra from coming face-to-face with Vermithor? Why did Rhaenyra feel so confident to call Vermithor when she also faces that a risk of death?

Because the bloodline protects highborn Targaryens. It's their birthright to be accepted by dragons. A birthright carried in their blood, not in secret knowledge. That's why they put a call out for Targ bastards and not just anybody who was feeling lucky. Of course Rhaenyra was careful in approaching Vermithor--just as everyone else was--but she mostly relied on Vermithor recognizing her as a dragon rider. Knowing how to speak to it in High Valyrian was exra.

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But there is no info that will reduce your odds of harm in this case. Saying there are was would be lying. 

Well, for starters... letting me know that the guards weren't going to let me out would have been great start. I feel like my chances would have be a lot better if I wasn't blocked from exiting.

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Because the bloodline protects highborn Targaryens. It's their birthright to be accepted by dragons. A birthright carried in their blood, not in secret knowledge.

Not secret to the highborns... As a lowborn, knowing that may have changed their judgment since they're not highborn Targaryens.

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Claiming a dragon means presenting yourself for judgement by the dragon and that's it.

...and the lowborns didn't know that until they were in the Dragonmont in front of this giant fire-breathing killing machine.