S02.E05: Regent

[Oscirus]

59 minutes ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

I think the main difference between HotD and GoT is that on GoT, there were a number of people who were pretty good leaders, but circumstances got in the way. You could have made a case for Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Sansa, Jon, and Dany to be leaders. This doesn't mean they were good people or compassionate leaders. Just that they had the qualities of leadership. They were smart and wily and resilient.

On HotD, each choice is worse than the last. Everyone is weak, undecisive, impulsive, and in many cases flat out dumb. It's way more realistic but the stakes seem lower, because really, who would actually be a good king/queen of Westeros?

 

In terms of leadership, I believe that each bad king in GOT had a hand to keep them in check. Here, these fools have Crispy, who, lol.

 

With Aemond, I still go back to Alicent and Otto. That kid at the funeral wanting to wish condolences was empathetic; that kid who scolded Aegon on family duty could've gone either way growing up. However, once that kid lost an eye on the best day of his life, a crime that was largely unpunished (regardless of how people see the situation). That kid became a walking time bomb brimming with anger and resentment. Add to that mixture that he has the largest weapon in the land. Is it any wonder he's now a bully after being largely disrespected/ ignored throughout his youth?

[Is Everyone Gone]

16 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

With Aemond, I still go back to Alicent and Otto. That kid at the funeral wanting to wish condolences was empathetic; that kid who scolded Aegon on family duty could've gone either way growing up. However, once that kid lost an eye on the best day of his life, a crime that was largely unpunished (regardless of how people see the situation). That kid became a walking time bomb brimming with anger and resentment. Add to that mixture that he has the largest weapon in the land. Is it any wonder he's now a bully after being largely disrespected/ ignored throughout his youth?

Yeah Aemond seemed like a decent enough kid. Another thing that damaged all of Alicent's kids is that she only sees them as chess pieces. She never seems to care about them as people. 

It really reminds me of Logan Roy whining that his kids weren't "serious people." Why do you think they're like that Logan? Because he always pitted them against each other and showed them no empathy. 

[paigow]

25 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

but he and Daemon were working in support of Rhaenyra’s cause.   

 I doubt he’d kill her father. 

Not a shared cause anymore...

Dude straight up murdered his first wife, wants to murder his nephews so being part of the family is not really a shield...

[magdalene]

12 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

You mean what Aemond did to his brother and Sunfyre? Daemon wanted to take out Aemond and Vhagar because they are the biggest threat to Rhaenyra’s cause and to get revenge for Luke. His plan was the right one. What exactly would be his motivation for killing Rhaenys and Meleys? Because he “wants the throne?” Something that didn’t come up until he was at Harrenhall being drugged and someone making him hallucinate? Why do all that and unnecessarily take out a dragon when he can just have Rhaenys killed if he wanted? Same with Rhaenyra.  He sleeps with her every night. He could just slip her some poison. Daemon isn’t trying to kill anyone but the Greens. I swear there’s a need to try and make Daemon equal to Aemond and Aegon for “both sides!” except a lot of what he’s accused of he hasn’t actually done. 

 

And when did this happen?  Daemon has not mentioned Corlys, nor had any interaction with Corlys since Season 1, so when did Corlys become his enemy?  Why would Corlys even be his enemy in the first place? Corlys was upset in this last episode about Rhaenys, but he and Daemon were working in support of Rhaenyra’s cause.  Even with his Harrenhall delusions he hasn’t mentioned Corlys. And given his guilt surrounding Corlys’s daughter and his treatment of her as hallucinations show, I doubt he’d kill her father. The grandfather of his daughters. 

I agree. Daemon isn't a good guy but to make him seem like the biggest bad in this show and to invent motives for him to kill certain people like Corlys and Rhaenys is pretty ridiculous.

I don't take anything Daemon says or does in Harrenhall at face value. I think he is slowly being driven insane by a combination of Alys and sleep deprivation. He needs to leave like yesterday to save his life and sanity.

I also don't buy that Daemon will betray and usurp Rhaenyra. No matter what he says in Harrenhall.  They have a very strong bond that one gigantic argument is not going to sever. 

I think the writers are playing a misleading game of duping the audience into believing it's Rhaenyra vrs Daemon from now on only to pull the rug out from under parts of the audience.

I believe these writers do deviate from the source material - but only to a certain extent.

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, KBrownie said:

Alicent had her own personal vendetta against Rhaenyra and absolutely used Rhaenyra’s status as a woman to accomplish her goals. From the moment she got pissed that *gasp* Rhaenyra chose to protect herself from Alicent and her father, she was never innocently “simply doing what she was raised to do.”  She’s a hypocrite  She actually thought she was the exception.  She can help and enable usurping Rhaenyra based on the fact that she’s a woman, but that shouldn’t apply to her.

Alicent is a total Pick Me girl.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

However, once that kid lost an eye on the best day of his life, a crime that was largely unpunished (regardless of how people see the situation).

What happened to him was an accident.  Not a crime. How does anyone know Lucerys wasn’t punished? Maybe he wasn’t punished the way Alicent or Aemond would have wanted to be punished, but Rhaenyra doesn’t seem the type of person or mother who wouldn’t have talked to her kids when things calmed down about what happened and their part in it. 
 

No punishment other than maiming Luke in return was going to satisfy them anyway and no one who mattered was going to allow that to happen. Alicent wasn’t real genuine in her demand for justice anyway.  She was still mainly focused on her issues with Rhaenyra. If she was a good mother, she would have allowed for Aemond’s grief over what happened to him, but had the sense to try and help him move on. But she chose not to do that. 

Edited July 16 by KBrownie

[KBrownie]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Not a shared cause anymore...

Dude straight up murdered his first wife, wants to murder his nephews so being part of the family is not really a shield...

Again, when did that happen? When did they stop sharing the same cause? Daemon is still working to raise an army in Rhaenyra’s name. Daemon’s Harrenhall rants cannot seriously be used as proof of anything real or substantial. Also, Rhea Royce was not Laena Velaryon.  Daemon cared about her unlike Rhea Royce who he didn’t gaf about. He’s not going to kill her father just because.  He has NO issue with Corlys.  
 

What about the assertion that Daemon wanted to kill Corlys? Or that Daemon was trying to kill Rhaenys? None of this actually occurred, nor does it make any logical sense that he would do either of those things.

Like Daemon doesn’t have plenty of good reasons to want to kill his nephews.  They want to kill their uncle too by the way.  And their sister.  And their cousins. And their nephews.  Aemond already killed one of them.  And one of his cousins.  He also tried to kill his brother. Probably will try and finish the job. But I guess it’s okay when it’s them. 
 

No one is claiming Daemon is a good person, but he ain’t the super villain some want him to be either.

Edited July 16 by KBrownie

[Lady S.]

Knowing that Daemon has a history of attacking the messenger, I hope he beats the shit out of Ser Alfred the Asshole.

[KBrownie]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

I agree. Daemon isn't a good guy but to make him seem like the biggest bad in this show and to invent motives for him to kill certain people like Corlys and Rhaenys is pretty ridiculous.

I don't take anything Daemon says or does in Harrenhall at face value. I think he is slowly being driven insane by a combination of Alys and sleep deprivation. He needs to leave like yesterday to save his life and sanity.

I also don't buy that Daemon will betray and usurp Rhaenyra. No matter what he says in Harrenhall.  They have a very strong bond that one gigantic argument is not going to sever. 

I think the writers are playing a misleading game of duping the audience into believing it's Rhaenyra vrs Daemon from now on only to pull the rug out from under parts of the audience.

I believe these writers do deviate from the source material - but only to a certain extent.

I agree. The Harrenhall stuff needs to have been over.  It’s gone on two episodes too many. The point has more than been made. 
 

I also am not buying the idea of Daemon betraying Rhaenyra. The reason he’s so affected by and easily susceptible to Alys is because he’s so hurt by what Rhaenyra said to him during their fight and can’t deal with it in a healthy way, so he runs away. The idea that Rhaenyra doesn’t trust him, that his brother didn’t trust him, that he’s weak and pathetic (what he accused his brother of being) really hit him at his core. 
 

The Harrenhall stuff, although I don’t think they are doing a good job of showing this, is him finally and hopefully dealing with his emotions. He and Rhaenyra absolutely have a strong bond and they will come out on the other side stronger than ever. There were several parallels between them this episode, particularly at the end when Daemon stumbled and leans his head against the fireplace and then cuts to Rhaenyra doing the same at Dragonstone, that show that bond. Daemon will always be Daemon, but they need each other. Not just because of one’s physical strength or claim to power, but emotionally as well.  They’re both too stubborn to admit it. 

Edited July 16 by KBrownie

[DigitalCount]

I forgot to mention that fireplace scene, I did really enjoy that. In a lot of ways, Daemon and Rhaenyra are halves of a whole (he said about an uncle/niece marriage, somehow, without barfing)

[CeeBeeGee]

2 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I forgot to mention that fireplace scene, I did really enjoy that. In a lot of ways, Daemon and Rhaenyra are halves of a whole (he said about an uncle/niece marriage, somehow, without barfing)

That's a good laugh emoji reaction, I'm not mocking you :)

[proserpina65]

Quote

With Aemond, I still go back to Alicent and Otto. That kid at the funeral wanting to wish condolences was empathetic; that kid who scolded Aegon on family duty could've gone either way growing up. However, once that kid lost an eye on the best day of his life, a crime that was largely unpunished (regardless of how people see the situation). That kid became a walking time bomb brimming with anger and resentment. Add to that mixture that he has the largest weapon in the land. Is it any wonder he's now a bully after being largely disrespected/ ignored throughout his youth?

 

Given that he was bullied mercilessly by his brother prior to claiming Vhagar, which his mother knew about at the very least and failed to stop, and that his father barely seemed to know he existed, it's a wonder that he still seemed to have the potential to be a decent kid at that point.  It's not all that surprising for him to have turned less empathetic and darker after gaining the kind of power Vhagar represented.  And Otto shares the blame as well, although he had been dismissed as Hand before Aemond was born and wasn't around for most of the boy's pre-Vhagar life.

 

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't take anything Daemon says or does in Harrenhall at face value. I think he is slowly being driven insane by a combination of Alys and sleep deprivation.

I think what he's said at Harrenhall is more honest than anything he's said prior to going there.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, KBrownie said:

No punishment other than maiming Luke in return was going to satisfy them anyway and no one who mattered was going to allow that to happen.

We don't know that because we never saw anyone offer any form of punishment.   Viserys was all "Boys will be boys, no big deal" before Rhaenyra made it all about her and her bastards.  No one actually talked about suitable punishment.  And there should have been some.  Not taking Luke's eye, though, that would've been way too far, but I don't think Alicent would've demanded it IF something reasonable had been suggested.

 

[paigow]

Whoever coined Happy Wife, Happy Life would hate the Targaryens because Aunt Wife breaks the rhythm...

[Lady S.]

Updated Character Guide

[surfgirl]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm ready for Daemon to end his time tripping balls at Harrenhal,

Best line of this episode's comments! 

[paigow]

This week on HGTV: Flipping Riverlands

Daemon is going over budget on the roof, but Jace secretly signs the deed over to somebody else...

[Lady S.]

I swear the Eyrie looks different every time we see it. When Sansa/Littlefinger went there in s4 of GoT it didn't look the same as when Cat/Tyrion went there in s1, and now that Rhaena's there it seems to have a new look again. It's like they keep losing the CGI files they used before or something. (Idk how that really works but Winterfell looked more recognizably the same in 2.01)

Well, Aegon is truly his father's heir now, a grostequely scarred body bound in bed and fed milk of the poppy by a whole team of maesters, so that an ambitious second son (Otto and Aemond) can rule in his place. (He was already like Vizzy in never really wanting the throne and at least trying at first just to be a Good Times King, but this is the biggest parallel.)

Really did not need to see Cheese's poor little dog again. Reminded me of that heartbreaking ep of Futurama showing Fry's dog waiting for him.

I like how Larys didn't even need to let Criston know they were in any kind of rivalry, he just broke up AliCole by making sure Crissy had to speak up against her in the meeting too.

So fitting that UnValyrian-haired bastard Jace is the first to question the need for maximum pure Targ blood to be a dragonrider.

On 7/15/2024 at 2:03 PM, proserpina65 said:

I don't know about me being cool, but yes, I was on Jeopardy in 2008.  I didn't win but it was a great experience.  And I got to meet Alex Trebek, which definitely was cool.

OT, but congratulations, a Jeopardy contestant and with the last true host too.

On 7/14/2024 at 9:29 PM, Oscirus said:

Not sure how I feel about Baela scolding Corlys while he just sits there and takes it. He doesn't strike me as somebody who would listen. I'll take it because it at least gives Baela something to do. 

They're really playing up this sexism. Gentler sex? Could ole dude have been more condescending? Glad Rhaenyra sent him to be smacked around by Damon.

Corlys also kinda let Rhaenys chew him out on his sickbed in the s1 finale. Guess he's only open to criticism at his lowest points. Nice to finally see Corlys have a scene with one of his granddaughters, but I guess it slipped Baela's mind that Rhaena might want Driftmark since she was meant to rule it with Luke while part of the cause Baela's fighting for is to be Jace's future Queen. (Hence why Rhaenys wanted Rhaena to be named heir in Luke's place after his death when she'd originally wanted Baela before their betrothals.)

Talking about the gentler sex being unsuited for a war after a female dragonrider just died in battle, no less. Almost as if he's blaming her sex for her death.

On 7/14/2024 at 10:11 PM, bluvelvet said:

I thought Daemon was dreaming about Aemma, Viserys’s wife. Actress looked the same, that was supposed to be his mother 🤢 

I did wonder at first whether that was a younger Aemma as manifestation of his jealousy of Viserys. If Alyssa died when he was a little kid it's possible he doesn't remember her face accurately, so that's why his subconscious amalgated Aemma and grown Rhaenyra (and in some angles Alys in a Targ wig) as his lost mother.

Viserys did agree that Daemon was the favorite, btw.

On 7/14/2024 at 10:29 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I initially wanted to quote Brooklyn Nine-Nine's "Why is No One Having a Good Time?  I Specifically Requested It!" line for Cole and how his "Lets parade Meleys severed head amongst the common folks" idea backfired miserably, but I feel dirty even comparing fucking Cole to CAPTAIN Raymond Holt! 

Speaking of associating Criston with better-loved characters, I realized the chain of hands he wears on his armor now looks just like the one on Tyrion's armor when he commanded as Hand during the Battle of the Blackwater.

On 7/15/2024 at 2:19 AM, WearyTraveler said:

I think Allicent realised, during the Small Council, that the only reason she was Regent when Viserys was incapacitated was because her father was Hand. She understood she never had any real power because none of these men would actually follow a woman. They all believed her father was the real power behind the throne. Otto chose her as Regent because he didn't have any claim and the children were too young.

Yeah, I wonder if she's missing Otto more than ever now. He used her as a pawn, plotted to crown Aegon behind her back, and undermined her in the council but he also treated her almost like a partner at times. If he were still Hand, he'd probably prefer to rule with her again rather than empower another headstrong grandson even more bloodthirsty and even closer to Criston than Aegon was.

On 7/15/2024 at 8:23 AM, proserpina65 said:

And we thought Aemond had mommy issues!

Also, for all the bullshit about Aemond 'stealing' Vhagar, turns out it's not the first time someone claimed a dragon to whom someone else thought they had a right.  Huh.

Ha, my first thought was wondering if Alys could get motherfucker fantasies out of Aemond too.

Also liked that anti-parallel between Daemon/Aemond, that Daemon was actually in Rhaena's place back then, wanting to claim his dead mother's dragon and seeing her bonded to an older cousin instead. Not that it's ever helped him relate to his dragonless daughter, of course. (And tbh if Rhaena's been trying to bond with the unclaimed dragon(s) and almost getting herself killed, I doubt she could tame Vhagar either.) I bet Daemon was even faster than Rhaenys or Aemond in claiming Rhaenys's dad's dragon as soon as he died just to intentionally be a petty jerk about it.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, KBrownie said:

What happened to him was an accident.  Not a crime. How does anyone know Lucerys wasn’t punished? Maybe he wasn’t punished the way Alicent or Aemond would have wanted to be punished, but Rhaenyra doesn’t seem the type of person or mother who wouldn’t have talked to her kids when things calmed down about what happened and their part in it. 
 

No punishment other than maiming Luke in return was going to satisfy them anyway and no one who mattered was going to allow that to happen. Alicent wasn’t real genuine in her demand for justice anyway.  She was still mainly focused on her issues with Rhaenyra. If she was a good mother, she would have allowed for Aemond’s grief over what happened to him, but had the sense to try and help him move on. But she chose not to do that. 

 

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

We don't know that because we never saw anyone offer any form of punishment.   Viserys was all "Boys will be boys, no big deal" before Rhaenyra made it all about her and her bastards.  No one actually talked about suitable punishment.  And there should have been some.  Not taking Luke's eye, though, that would've been way too far, but I don't think Alicent would've demanded it IF something reasonable had been suggested.

 

It's not "an accident" if you take a knife in your hand and deliberately hit another person. It would be a crime a serious crime called "causing bodily harm". Of course nowadays a child wouldn't be convicted but taken in custody.

I recently read about first Norman kings in England who were also Dukes of Normandy and there were a pair cases where the sentence "an eye for eye" was ordered.

I don't know this alternative universe's laws, but Viserys's attitude "boys are boys" wasn't how things were dealt in that kind of society.  

  

 

[AntFTW]

On 7/15/2024 at 4:07 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

More importantly, it's Rhaenyra who is making the smallfolk suffer right now (the complete idiocy of not allowing people to leave the capital aside), so why should anyone risk their life to rebel in her name?

The small folk might not see it that way. They wouldn't rebel in Rhaenyra's name. They'd rebel out of their own frustrations.

As in real-life politics, the person in charge gets the blame. Right now, that's the Greens.

The small folk don't care who or what is causing the blockade. They only care about getting relief from the people in charge, the Greens. They don't go to Rhaenyra asking for relief. They ask the person sitting on the Iron Throne. If the person on the Iron Throne can't fix the problem, it's their fault.

[AntFTW]

13 hours ago, KBrownie said:

He doesn’t want the throne.

13 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

He damned well wants the throne.  It might not be the only reason he married Rhaenyra but it's part of it.  Whatever Alys is doing is tapping into things that are already inside Daemon.  She's not pulling this out of thin air.

I also think he wants the throne.

I think he wants the title and prestige of the throne but not the work and responsibility of it. Daemon doesn't actually want to hear people's problems and actually govern. He just wants people to stay out of his way and fall in line.

[Oscirus]

12 hours ago, KBrownie said:

What happened to him was an accident.  Not a crime. How does anyone know Lucerys wasn’t punished? Maybe he wasn’t punished the way Alicent or Aemond would have wanted to be punished, but Rhaenyra doesn’t seem the type of person or mother who wouldn’t have talked to her kids when things calmed down about what happened and their part in it. 
 

No punishment other than maiming Luke in return was going to satisfy them anyway and no one who mattered was going to allow that to happen. Alicent wasn’t real genuine in her demand for justice anyway.  She was still mainly focused on her issues with Rhaenyra. If she was a good mother, she would have allowed for Aemond’s grief over what happened to him, but had the sense to try and help him move on. But she chose not to do that. 

 

 

From Aemond's point of view, he was maimed and faced the most trouble for calling the boys bastards, and he didn't even receive a simple apology. Hell, his sister basically called for him to be tortured to find out where he heard that from. Which is why I doubt that she'd punish them at all, and even if she did, Aemond wouldn't know about it. 

But yea, Alicent is a problematic mother. The fact that Aemond of all people had to cool off his mother when she went crazy, and he protected his mother when it was her spreading around the bastard rumors, is especially eye-opening considering how shes always treated him.

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Corlys also kinda let Rhaenys chew him out on his sickbed in the s1 finale. Guess he's only open to criticism at his lowest points. Nice to finally see Corlys have a scene with one of his granddaughters, but I guess it slipped Baela's mind that Rhaena might want Driftmark since she was meant to rule it with Luke while part of the cause Baela's fighting for is to be Jace's future Queen. (Hence why Rhaenys wanted Rhaena to be named heir in Luke's place after his death when she'd originally wanted Baela before their betrothals.)

 

 

It's an especially strange statement considering all the candidates for Driftmark that Baela knows of are of fire and blood.

 At this point  Rhaena might consider that a consolation prize for not having a dragon.

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

The small folk might not see it that way. They wouldn't rebel in Rhaenyra's name. They'd rebel out of their own frustrations.

As in real-life politics, the person in charge gets the blame. Right now, that's the Greens.

The small folk don't care who or what is causing the blockade. They only care about getting relief from the people in charge, the Greens. They don't go to Rhaenyra asking for relief. They ask the person sitting on the Iron Throne. If the person on the Iron Throne can't fix the problem, it's their fault.

 

 

They'll see it as Targs involving them in their bullshit and now that the greens have proven the Targs mortality (great job Criston), the city is ripe for the population to rise and overthrow the government, last thing they'd want after booting Aegon is another Targ coming along and doing similar things.

Edited July 17 by Oscirus

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

From Aemond's point of view, he was maimed and faced the most trouble for calling the boys bastards

I doubt if he sees it so.

And of course these were two last phases of the quarrel that escalated. 

[baldryanr]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

They'll see it as Targs involving them in their bullshit and now that the greens have proven the Targs mortality (great job Criston), the city is ripe for the population to rise and overthrow the government, last thing they'd want after booting Aegon is another Targ coming along and doing similar things.

These people have memories that are longer than a few weeks.  The Targs have ruled for over a century and for most of that time things were OK.  Aegon and Aemond are losers?  Fine, dump them, and if Rhaenyra ends up being Aegon 2.0, then dump her too.  But there's no reason to immediately decide that one bad ruler equals the entire family being garbage.

[paigow]

33 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Aegon and Aemond are losers?  Fine, dump them, and if Rhaenyra ends up being Aegon 2.0, then dump her too.

Kingslaying is an inside job or a protracted war... both options beyond the resources of Small Folk.

[paigow]

Daemon wants to be the King who chews gum and roasts ass... and he has no idea what gum is...

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

OT, but congratulations, a Jeopardy contestant and with the last true host too.

Thanks. 🙂

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

but I guess it slipped Baela's mind that Rhaena might want Driftmark since she was meant to rule it with Luke while part of the cause Baela's fighting for is to be Jace's future Queen.

Well, since Rhaena doesn't have a dragon, Baela might consider her to be of sea and salt rather than fire and blood.

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Ha, my first thought was wondering if Alys could get motherfucker fantasies out of Aemond too.

Ick!  Do not put that idea in the showrunner's mind!! 🤢

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Also liked that anti-parallel between Daemon/Aemond, that Daemon was actually in Rhaena's place back then, wanting to claim his dead mother's dragon and seeing her bonded to an older cousin instead. Not that it's ever helped him relate to his dragonless daughter, of course. (And tbh if Rhaena's been trying to bond with the unclaimed dragon(s) and almost getting herself killed, I doubt she could tame Vhagar either.) I bet Daemon was even faster than Rhaenys or Aemond in claiming Rhaenys's dad's dragon as soon as he died just to intentionally be a petty jerk about it.

I absolutely agree, especially about his lack of success claiming his mother's dragon giving him zero empathy for his dragonless daughter.

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

From Aemond's point of view, he was maimed and faced the most trouble for calling the boys bastards, and he didn't even receive a simple apology. Hell, his sister basically called for him to be tortured to find out where he heard that from. Which is why I doubt that she'd punish them at all, and even if she did, Aemond wouldn't know about it. 

Exactly.  An apology might've been enough at that point, but instead he got his sister demanding he be tortured.  No wonder the damage has lasted long after the wound itself healed.

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

But yea, Alicent is a problematic mother. The fact that Aemond of all people had to cool off his mother when she went crazy, and he protected his mother when it was her spreading around the bastard rumors, is especially eye-opening considering how shes always treated him.

I've always found it telling that, while Alicent did demand justice for Aemond, she never actually comforts him in that scene.  He's the one who goes to her and offers comfort after the confrontation with the knife.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I doubt if he sees it so.

Seems pretty obvious that he does see it so, based on the later confrontation at Storm's End.

[Roseanna]

21 hours ago, KBrownie said:

I also am not buying the idea of Daemon betraying Rhaenyra. The reason he’s so affected by and easily susceptible to Alys is because he’s so hurt by what Rhaenyra said to him during their fight and can’t deal with it in a healthy way, so he runs away. The idea that Rhaenyra doesn’t trust him, that his brother didn’t trust him, that he’s weak and pathetic (what he accused his brother of being) really hit him at his core. 

It's not rare that people betray even a loved one, if they are nursing hurt caused by him or her, and especilly if somebody uses this hurt to manipulate them. 

Even if Daemon's hallycanations are created by Alys, she had probably created them by using what's already in his mind, either consciously or unconsciously.

I think a person rarely knows what she is capable of. When the final moment comes, sometimes she makes a choice that surprises even herself.     

[bluvelvet]

I have to agree about Tom Glynn-Carney, I have really become a fan. I’m supposed to hate Aegon but I feel sorry for him. In regards to his children, I’ve been watching some interviews and says that Aegon is not the most present father but he does love his children and doesn’t want them to grow up like he did. That’s why he brought Jahaerys to the council meeting - although Jahaerys couldn’t care less. I felt he was crying over the loss of his son but it would’ve been nice if the show gave us one or two scenes with him and the twins to show his affection. 
 

I also sense chemistry between Daemon and Alys, but that could just be Matt Smith. I don’t think it’s to show any type of romantic potential.  
 

Completely agree about parading Meley’s head. It was an idiotic thing to do, because all they did was show the small folk that dragons can be killed.  I would also argue that no self-respecting Targaryen would ever disrespect a dragon that way. I am surprised Aemond thought that was a good idea with his respect of his history, history and lineage.

As for Vhagar - I don’t think you can steal a dragon. If Rhaena had tried she would’ve failed. Learning that Rhaena tried and failed and almost got killed, and that Daemon could not claim Meley’s, I think there’s more to claiming a dragon than just jumping on for a ride.  I’m assuming there has to be some other connection or some temperament that comes into play. Like the dragon knows who they want to ride them. 

Edited July 17 by bluvelvet

[Colorado David]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Daemon wants to be the King who chews gum and roasts ass... and he has no idea what gum is...

lol paigow i love your humor but i have NO idea what this means, right over my head.

 

eta: ah makes sense now. i havent seen that movie but i hear it has a somewhat cult following. thank you for clarifying.

Edited July 17 by Colorado David
followup

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

lol paigow i love your humor but i have NO idea what this means, right over my head.

 

[iMonrey]

18 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I swear the Eyrie looks different every time we see it. When Sansa/Littlefinger went there in s4 of GoT it didn't look the same as when Cat/Tyrion went there in s1, and now that Rhaena's there it seems to have a new look again. It's like they keep losing the CGI files they used before or something. (Idk how that really works but Winterfell looked more recognizably the same in 2.01)

Actually as soon as they showed it I immediately said "Hey, that looks like the Eyrie!" But I take your point. It's always a different angle, different vantage point, etc.

17 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's not "an accident" if you take a knife in your hand and deliberately hit another person. It would be a crime a serious crime called "causing bodily harm". Of course nowadays a child wouldn't be convicted but taken in custody.

Not an accident but self defense. Aemond picked up a big rock and was about to bash someone's head in with it. 

But I see little point in relitigating this.

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I also think he wants the throne.

I think he wants the title and prestige of the throne but not the work and responsibility of it. Daemon doesn't actually want to hear people's problems and actually govern. He just wants people to stay out of his way and fall in line.

I think for Daemon the throne is not about absolute power or ambition so much as his ego, getting to be the center of attention, and not having anyone higher up to tell him no when he does fucked-up shit. In his own mind, I think he sees himself as the most loyal supporter of Viserys and Rhaenyra and their greatest asset, so he feels hard done by and unappreciated whenever they criticize him. He's like an outdoor cat who keeps bringing humans dead animals as unwanted gifts. (Notice how he also repeatedly rubs his head against loved ones like a cat.) Again, I think it's telling that his attack on Dreamnyra last ep came after she said Viserys loved her more than him. Now his subconcious is inventing a fantasy version of his mother to tell him he's the greatest Targ ever and give him all the validation Viserys/Rhaenyra never would. I don't think he even realizes consciously who she was until the same time we did, but it makes sense as she's supposedly the only family member who favored him the way he feels he deserves. Even now, his latest dumb plan is not to fight against Rhaenyra and usurp her too, but to take King's Landing on his own so they can rule as equals. (Not unheard of in the real world for pre-modern heiresses.) Of course, Rhaenyra would not agree to this and would still see it as a form of usurpation, but Daemon has a consistent pattern of ill-thought-out impulsive schemes where he kids himself about his monarch's reaction causing the whole thing to backfire on him. In s1, he tried to publicly deflower Rhaenyra thinking it would mean Viserys would have to allow him to take her as a bigamous 2nd wife, vastly underestimating Viserys's wrath at that and unwillingness to grant him the same privileges as Aegon the Conqueror, instead ensuring Viserys arranged Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor. And in s2, he really didn't think Rhaenyra would be so mad about killing the wrong prince in "a son for a son", and the unintended consequence was making Aemond, Luke's actual killer, the new heir. I think he loves Rhaenyra as much as he's capable, it's just that he's an asshole who can't be tamed by anyone.

 

On 7/16/2024 at 1:02 PM, magdalene said:

I agree. Daemon isn't a good guy but to make him seem like the biggest bad in this show and to invent motives for him to kill certain people like Corlys and Rhaenys is pretty ridiculous.

I don't take anything Daemon says or does in Harrenhall at face value. I think he is slowly being driven insane by a combination of Alys and sleep deprivation. He needs to leave like yesterday to save his life and sanity.

I do think his visions are not wholly Alys-induced in that they're only working with what's already buried in his mind not injecting any ideas from outside, but I agree that he has his own twisted brand of loyalty and it's only certain family members he dgaf about at all. That's why Laena can haunt him about his parental failures with their daughters but the ghost of Rhea Royce, the wife he treated worst by actually murdering her, is nowhere to be seen. He did care about Laena but would lose no sleep over his murder of Rhea. I also think he considers Rhaenyra's half-Strong sons to be better Targs than Alicent's line just because they're Rhaenyra's and not contaminated by icky Otto Hightower blood. I have always thought his biggest problem with Rhea was their lack of shared blood and that he would have been fine if he'd had an arranged marriage with a fellow Targ. By calling himself the Riverlords' "Targaryen master" he was saying the quiet part out loud about Valyrian supremacy. (As to Corlys, Daemon's loyalty to him is somewhat limited as he killed Corlys's brother and let everyone believe he had Laenor killed, but that doesn't mean he has desire or motive to kill Corlys himself. He thinks they're still on the same side working to put Rhaenyra and himself on the throne, and Corlys could identify with him as a proud man who married an heiress. With Rhaenys/Meleys, he had even less reason to kill her as he needed her help to fight Vhagar and she was no political threat, having been passed over for the throne over 30 years before--which is also why Criston sacrificing ~2/3rds of his army to lure her into a trap truly was a pyrrhic victory even if Aegon hadn't interfered and been betrayed by Aemond.)

Just compare his stunned reaction to headless Dreamnyra and the previous vision of her sewing on the head of Jaehaerys to Aemond's clear lack of remorse about what he did to Aegon. Of couse Aegon treated his brother worse than Viserys ever did Daemon, so I'm not saying Aemond's a worse kinslayer, but there is a certain irony in Daemon's loyalty constantly being questioned while Aemond's was taken for granted by Aegon only for him to turn out to do what Otto once implied Daemon would. (And again I don't get how wise and selfless Otto thought making his own blood the new heir would somehow stop Daemon. "Oh he'd kill his own brother whom he professes to love, but not a daughter or grandson of me, the guy he hates most in the whole world.")

I don't think we need more haunted Harrenhal hijinks for the next 3 eps, but I guess I'm the only who's enjoyed what we've got so far, even including the motherfucking fantasy. I enjoy the gothic horror and unhealthy relationships in this family, so whaddaya know normalized incest does lead to psychosexual feelings every which way, and I like Daemon best when he's being a pathetic weirdo. Lastly, not to be too crude, but his fantasy of eating out his mother quickly shifted to a bloody duck on his plate, and wasn't eating duck Rhaenyra's analogy for having sex with women in her pre-marital talk with Laenor? If I'm right, nice callback there.

Daemon should really stop relying on other people to do his dirty work for him. They never follow exact instructions and it always blows back on him. Or maybe Rhaenyra should've married Willem Blackwood when she had the chance, he's aggressive like she used to be into without all Daemon's craziness, and he may be somewhat more controllable, only doing his worst once Daemon told him to. (IMO the real chemistry was between Daemon/Willem more than Daemon/Alys.)

17 hours ago, Oscirus said:

But yea, Alicent is a problematic mother. The fact that Aemond of all people had to cool off his mother when she went crazy, and he protected his mother when it was her spreading around the bastard rumors, is especially eye-opening considering how shes always treated him.

6 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I've always found it telling that, while Alicent did demand justice for Aemond, she never actually comforts him in that scene.  He's the one who goes to her and offers comfort after the confrontation with the knife.

Yeah, Aemond/Alicent always had an unhealthy bond with him taking the parental role of comforting her after she loses it, which is why his remark about an eye for a dragon being a fair trade shouldn't be taken entirely at face value. But she did hug him after the pig prank and seemed closer to him than to Aegon in s1 so I think hje was Mummy's Special Little Guy the way Aegon wanted to be, until Aemond killed Luke. (I think Larys playing on Aegon's insecurity of Aemond's former closeness to Alicent likely sparked his return to cruel bullying of Aemond in the brothel in 2.03.) It's also true that she failed Aemond by never truly protecting him from Aegon, (just as she failed Helaena by making her marry Aegon), only telling him not to use Jace and Luke as his minions when picking on Aemond, and slapping him for failing to protect Aemond at Driftmark, the one time he was hurt without Aegon being at fault. However, I don't think it's at all surprising that both Aemond and Aegon covered for her in that Driftmark scene, when it was a choice between a mother who cared for them sometimes and at least made it clear they mattered to her and obeying a father who just made it clear how little his sons truly mattered to him by yelling in their faces about the "lie" of Rhaenyra's sons' paternity after Aemond just lost an eye, treating that as a far, far worse sin than his son being permanently injured. (And if he truly believed it to be a lie, it would be ridiculous to care more about an insult than any acts of violence.) Alicent is a very imperfect mother but she really is all those kids ever had.  (Well, except for Daeron, I guess, who grew up without either parent and probably turned out better for it.) Her whole unhinged knife attack was triggered by her futilely begging Viserys to care more about their son and Rhaenyra proudly thanking him for "sharply questioning" Aemond and then threatening to cut his already-maimed son's tongue out if he "slandered" Rhaenyra's boys again.

Edited July 18 by Lady S.

[Stardancer Supreme]

21 hours ago, Lady S. said:

So fitting that UnValyrian-haired bastard Jace is the first to question the need for maximum pure Targ blood to be a dragonrider.

 

Corlys also kinda let Rhaenys chew him out on his sickbed in the s1 finale. Guess he's only open to criticism at his lowest points. Nice to finally see Corlys have a scene with one of his granddaughters, but I guess it slipped Baela's mind that Rhaena might want Driftmark since she was meant to rule it with Luke while part of the cause Baela's fighting for is to be Jace's future Queen. (Hence why Rhaenys wanted Rhaena to be named heir in Luke's place after his death when she'd originally wanted Baela before their betrothals.)

 

Also liked that anti-parallel between Daemon/Aemond, that Daemon was actually in Rhaena's place back then, wanting to claim his dead mother's dragon and seeing her bonded to an older cousin instead. Not that it's ever helped him relate to his dragonless daughter, of course. (And tbh if Rhaena's been trying to bond with the unclaimed dragon(s) and almost getting herself killed, I doubt she could tame Vhagar either.) I bet Daemon was even faster than Rhaenys or Aemond in claiming Rhaenys's dad's dragon as soon as he died just to intentionally be a petty jerk about it.

That was fitting for Jacerys to bring the Dragonseed conversation to light; after all, he is only half Targaryen and has a dragon.

The thing about Driftmark is that Corlys never even considered giving his titles and seas to his Targaryen granddaughters. For him to backhandedly offer Driftmark to Baela after Rhaenys had begged him to pass it down to his daughter Laena first, then to Rhaena wasn't right. Corlys only bonded with Lucerys out of all of Laenor's "children", and expected to pass everything to him. Lucerys' death blew up all of Corlys' hopes and dreams.  I fully expected Baela to turn down Driftmark, because Corlys never imparted to the Targaryen girls the importance of Salt and Sea; he left them to Rhaenys, who wasn't too cool with Driftmark herself. Plus Baela is supposed to be Queen of the Realm eventually; why settle for something that wasn't supposed to go to her in the first place? She could have said to Corlys "What about my sister?", but the show hasn't shown how close the sisters are.  The show also shows that Daemon doesn't give a damn about his girls, either.

The claiming dragons debate should have been discussed more. We should have seen at least one of Rhaena's attempts for a dragon on Dragonstone so we can feel for her not being able to claim one.  Hell, Vhagar might not have cottoned to Rhaena as she had to Laena. It was a throwaway line from Rhaenyra that let us know that Rhaena attempted to claim a dragon nearly at the cost of her life.  Even having Targaryen/Old Valyrian blood still won't guarantee a dragon to ride if the dragon won't bond with you. 

[paigow]

If Baela hooked up with one of the Hull Bastards... that would be Step-Grand-Uncle incest?

[paigow]

Team Black will be very unlucky if the Frey army is inept as their descendants. Their Blackfish siege would have failed if Jaime & Bronn never arrived to take charge. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

However, I don't think it's at all surprising that both Aemond and Aegon covered for her in that Driftmark scene, when it was a choice between a mother who cared for them sometimes and at least made it clear they mattered to her and obeying a father who just made it clear how little his sons truly mattered to him by yelling in their faces about the "lie" of Rhaenyra's sons' paternity after Aemond just lost an eye, treating that as a far, far worse sin than his son being permanently injured. (And if he truly believed it to be a lie, it would be ridiculous to care more about an insult than any acts of violence.) Alicent is a very imperfect mother but she really is all those kids ever had.  (Well, except for Daeron, I guess, who grew up without either parent and probably turned out better for it.) Her whole unhinged knife attack was triggered by her futilely begging Viserys to care more about their son and Rhaenyra proudly thanking him for "sharply questioning" Aemond and then threatening to cut his already-maimed son's tongue out if he "slandered" Rhaenyra's boys again.

A good analysis.

Viserys did the worst possible decision with his inaction. He should have punished Luke. If "an eye for an eye" was too much (although such punishments happened 1000 years ago), corporal punishment for children was usual not so long ago. 

On the other hand, if he believed that Rhaenyra's children were of her husband, he should have severely punished Aegon and Aemond. And he knew well who had taught them such things - Alicent had said him them for years. Cf. how he acted toward Gorlois' brother.  

Instead, he naively believed that all would become okay by itself, although he had made Alicent and her sons bitter by showing how little they mattered to him - but although he had shown that he put Rhaenyra and her sons in his heart first, he had actually made their position weaker, bot stronger. If he had really wanted the latter, he should have separatated from Alicent and send her and her sons away in disgrace.

      

[Roseanna]

On 7/16/2024 at 8:33 PM, Oscirus said:

With Aemond, I still go back to Alicent and Otto. That kid at the funeral wanting to wish condolences was empathetic; that kid who scolded Aegon on family duty could've gone either way growing up. However, once that kid lost an eye on the best day of his life, a crime that was largely unpunished (regardless of how people see the situation). That kid became a walking time bomb brimming with anger and resentment. Add to that mixture that he has the largest weapon in the land. Is it any wonder he's now a bully after being largely disrespected/ ignored throughout his youth?

How about Cole who, because his resentment against Rhaenura, urged Aegon to attack unfairly Jace? If he had been an unpartial trainer of boys, he could have done much not to escalate things. 

In theory, Jace and Luce could have won Aemond on their side against Aegon, instead of taking part of the pig incident.  

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, paigow said:

If Baela hooked up with one of the Hull Bastards... that would be Step-Grand-Uncle incest?

The Hull boys are half siblings to Laenor and Laena.  That means they're half-uncles to Baela and Rhaena through their mom, and half uncle by marriage through their stepmom.  Since their half brothers Aegon and Viserys are toddlers right now, this is a good as it gets for those Targ incest genes.

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, Lady S. said:

which is also why Criston sacrificing ~2/3rds of his army to lure her into a trap truly was a pyrrhic victory even if Aegon hadn't interfered and been betrayed by Aemond.)

I don't think the trap was specifically for Meleys.  It was for whatever dragon Rhaenyra sent.  Cole might've even hoped that Rhaenyra herself would come.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A good analysis.

Viserys did the worst possible decision with his inaction. He should have punished Luke. If "an eye for an eye" was too much (although such punishments happened 1000 years ago), corporal punishment for children was usual not so long ago. 

On the other hand, if he believed that Rhaenyra's children were of her husband, he should have severely punished Aegon and Aemond. And he knew well who had taught them such things - Alicent had said him them for years. Cf. how he acted toward Gorlois' brother.  

Instead, he naively believed that all would become okay by itself, although he had made Alicent and her sons bitter by showing how little they mattered to him - but although he had shown that he put Rhaenyra and her sons in his heart first, he had actually made their position weaker, bot stronger. If he had really wanted the latter, he should have separatated from Alicent and send her and her sons away in disgrace.

      

Viserys could have at least made Luke apologize or otherwise acknowledge his actions.  Might've been enough, might not have, but his vague attempt to placate his son and wife while giving Rhaenyra what she wanted only made everything worse.

[bluvelvet]

I have a stupid question about the strong boys. Are they considered bastards? I mean they were born into a marriage and Laenor claimed them as his own. I thought bastards were born outside of marriage ?

Also by putting Jacerys as her heir to the throne, isn’t Rhaenyra committing treason if they are considered bastards?

[AntFTW]

10 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I have a stupid question about the strong boys. Are they considered bastards? I mean they were born into a marriage and Laenor claimed them as his own. I thought bastards were born outside of marriage ?

 

Legally, they are not considered bastards. Laenor claimed them as his legitimate children. Laenor is their lawful father.

The "rumor" is that they are bastards. We, the audience, know that they are bastards. The characters in the show have a strong suspiscion, or know, that they are bastards. Lawfully, they are legitimate born to lawfully wedded parents.

Edited July 18 by AntFTW

[CeeBeeGee]

16 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I have a stupid question about the strong boys. Are they considered bastards? I mean they were born into a marriage and Laenor claimed them as his own. I thought bastards were born outside of marriage ?

Also by putting Jacerys as her heir to the throne, isn’t Rhaenyra committing treason if they are considered bastards?

It depends on the laws of Westeros but IRL bastards have been legitimized and given titles before. Prince Albert's grandmother, Princess Charlotte, was one such.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

I have a stupid question about the strong boys. Are they considered bastards? I mean they were born into a marriage and Laenor claimed them as his own. I thought bastards were born outside of marriage ?

Also by putting Jacerys as her heir to the throne, isn’t Rhaenyra committing treason if they are considered bastards?

No, they are not officially considered bastards. They never were. No one outside the greens claimed they were. Just because they said so doesn’t make it true. Laenor said they were his sons. They have the name Velaryon. Not Snow, Sand, Rivers, etc. As long as he claims them, they are his sons and are recognized as such, supported by the Velaryon Lord.  That is all that needs to be said.  There are no DNA tests.  Just because Alicent and company say so doesn’t mean anything.  Anyone could go around claiming anything and everything if that were the case.  

So, no Rhaenyra isn’t committing treason.  Jacacerys VELARYON is her heir.  Viserys and Corlys even agreed that he would take the name Targaryen whenever he ascended the throne. 

The argument about them being bastards was and still is moot anyway and an excuse. The plan against Rhaenyra by Otto and Alicent’s obsession was well established before she had ANY child. If Viserys had died before Rhaenyra had any kids, they would have usurped her throne. They were going to do what they did no matter what. Rhaenyra could have been perfect, done everything perfectly and that wasn’t going to ever mean anything.  She was a woman and not of Otto’s blood who he could use as a proxy to power.

 

 

Edited July 18 by KBrownie

[KBrownie]

28 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

It depends on the laws of Westeros but IRL bastards have been legitimized and given titles before. Prince Albert's grandmother, Princess Charlotte, was one such.

But Rhaenyra’s sons never needed any legitimizing because they were never considered bastards legally in that world. They were Velaryons from birth and claimed by the Velaryon lord and his heir. They were never Jon SNOW or Ramsey SNOW.  Ramsey in GOT was able to be declared the Bolton heir because he was declared legitimate by the King. Just because Alicent and whoever said so didn’t change their status just because they wanted it. Why should what she, or anyone else said, count for anything? And what proof did she have of anything? They had brown hair? All actual relevant people involved, i.e. not Alicent whose motives weren’t pure, claimed them as Velaryons.

Edited July 18 by KBrownie

[paigow]

52 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The "rumor" is that they are bastards. We, the audience, know that they are bastards. The characters in the show have a strong suspiscion, or know, that they are bastards.

Stannis offered to legitimize Jon Snow as a Stark in exchange for Jon pledging allegiance

[baldryanr]

18 hours ago, Lady S. said:

which is also why Criston sacrificing ~2/3rds of his army to lure her into a trap truly was a pyrrhic victory even if Aegon hadn't interfered and been betrayed by Aemond.)

If that was the only fighting force Cole could count on then sure.  But we know that's not supposed to be the case.  Jeyne Arryn mentions her promise of 15k men to Rhaenyra.  If the other regions are of comparable strength then the Greens have tens of thousands of reinforcements coming from the Lannisters, Baratheons, and Hightowers.  Trading 1k men for killing Meleys and Rhaenys is a huge victory - it was the loss of Aegon and Sunfyre that made it Pyrrhic.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, KBrownie said:

No one outside the greens claimed they were.

Corlys and Rhaenys might not have claimed they were bastards but they privately admitted that they were.  Vaimond DID publicly claim it.  Almost no one actually believes they are Laenor's sons.  While Viserys lived, it didn't matter what anyone thought.  Now that he's dead, it will matter if Rhaenyra doesn't win the war or if enough of her supporters decide they won't support her eldest sons.  Legally or not legally is irrelevant to the story; it's all in the perception (which is why Viserys banned the mention of illegitimacy on pain of losing one's tongue), and the prevailing perception in much of Westeros is that Jace and Joffrey are bastards.

Edited July 18 by proserpina65

[Oscirus]

Fun fact one of the reasons that Aegon the unworthy earned his moniker is because on his deathbed, he legitmatized all his bastards and caused three wars by doing so. 

Going back to that Corlys-Baela conversation, the writing is questionable. It worked from Baela's side because she didn't know what Corlys knew, but certain things were weird. As far as Corlys knows, Rhaenyra was one of the people behind Laenor's murder; adding Rhaenys's death to the docket should only exacerbate the situation he should be legit pissed. Also, that Baela quote about all dragon riders wanting to die like Rhaenys was stupid because you'd figure that Corlys would've called bullshit on that since he knows her better than anybody else; also, how many dragon riders died like that?

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

How about Cole who, because his resentment against Rhaenura, urged Aegon to attack unfairly Jace? If he had been an unpartial trainer of boys, he could have done much not to escalate things. 

In theory, Jace and Luce could have won Aemond on their side against Aegon, instead of taking part of the pig incident.  

 

Also true. 

Cole being the only real role model for the boys also likely didnt help matters.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Legally, they are not considered bastards. Laenor claimed them as his legitimate children. Laenor is their lawful father.

The "rumor" is that they are bastards. We, the audience, know that they are bastards. The characters in the show have a strong suspiscion, or know, that they are bastards. Lawfully, they are legitimate born to lawfully wedded parents.

Yes, the husband of the child's mother is the child's father. But he could deny his paternity. Laenor didn't, so the boys are his legitime children, although not his biologicical children.

2 hours ago, KBrownie said:

The argument about them being bastards was and still is moot anyway and an excuse. The plan against Rhaenyra by Otto and Alicent’s obsession was well established before she had ANY child. If Viserys had died before Rhaenyra had any kids, they would have usurped her throne. They were going to do what they did no matter what. Rhaenyra could have been perfect, done everything perfectly and that wasn’t going to ever mean anything.  She was a woman and not of Otto’s blood who he could use as a proxy to power.

I don't think it's just an excuse. Rhaenyra give weapons to her enemy's hand and they used it. If she had married some of her suitors and had children by him, she would have had no reason to move out and live in exile for years.

Even in this scenario she made grave mistakes. If she had sat at the council table, and formed alliances, King's guard would have hers to command after her father died and Otto couldn't crowned Aegon crowed as King. But chose exile,  family life and inaction and thus gave Alicent and Otto freedom to act.