S02.E02

[proserpina65]

20 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of Freudian issues and emotional incest, the Madam did say in 1.09 how much Aemond had grown so yeah, I don't think she'd seen him since deflowering him at 13. Meaning he only went back to her after Alicent turned against him for killing Luke. Mummy issues indeed, and technically we don't even know if he's paying for anything more than naked cuddles. When she moves to kiss him he pulls aways and just curls up more to put his head in her lap.

That's my take on it as well.  I also wonder if Alicent's guilt over wounding Rhaenyra during the argument at Driftmark caused her to pull away from Aemond and deny him what little affection he'd previously gotten from his mother.  It seems significant that when he goes to her at the end of that scene, she doesn't do anything to comfort her wounded son, not even put an arm around him.  He's actually comforting HER instead.

21 hours ago, Lady S. said:

And Aemond and Daemon are both kidding themselves thinking everyone's afraid of them. We know Viserys didn't disinherit Daemon out of jealousy/fear, and that a murder plan which can swap in a toddler as target is not about fear either. Dude, your one big victory was actually all down to your hugeass dragon chomping your nephew while he was riding the dragon-equivalent of a tricycle.

I think people who've seen both of them fight (Daemon during the tournament and in the Stepstones and Aemond while training with Criston) do have some reasonable fear of them.  The level of fear they believe they inspire is definitely out of proportion to the reality, especially in Aemond's case.

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You are so right that it's not like the death of Rhae would have ended the war. It would just have put Daemon (presumably) front and center. Or possibly Jace, or possibly Rhaenys would have stepped up.

It would only have worked if it had been done as Otto demanded at the small council: kill Rhaenyra, all her children AND Daemon before they knew Viserys had died.  Once Rhaenys was able to warn them about that and Aegon's coronation, it was too late for such a strike to prevent war.

16 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Alicent and Otto had a colder relationship and this is reflected in how Alicent treats her children. 

I think Alicent being basically forced by her father to marry a much older man she didn't love definitely colors any affection she feels her children.

 

[Oscirus]

21 minutes ago, paigow said:

 

 

 

Compare how Tywin responds to Joffrey to how Otto berates Aegon.  Perhaps I used the wrong words, but Tywin knew exactly what he could get away with, while Otto thought he was invincible because he was Aegon's grandpa. At least Tywin's arrogance was justified.

[AntFTW]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Otto was so dumb that he didn't realize that telling his grandson off like that would lead to his removal. Not even Tywin was that arrogant.

Tywin didn’t have to be. Joffrey was kind of afraid of him and submitted to Tywin. Joffrey didn’t have the balls to push back on Tywin the way Aegon did to Otto.

Edited June 28 by AntFTW

[iMonrey]

18 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Compare how Tywin responds to Joffrey to how Otto berates Aegon.  Perhaps I used the wrong words, but Tywin knew exactly what he could get away with, while Otto thought he was invincible because he was Aegon's grandpa. At least Tywin's arrogance was justified.

Joffrey was also younger than Aegon, from what I can tell. Everyone knew the Lannisters were the real power behind the throne, and that meant Tywin. Otto, on the other hand, has tried to be more stealth about steering things from behind the curtain. HIs position has always been more fragile.

[proserpina65]

Just wanted to say, for all the discussion here about whether or not Aemond looked particularly thin, it's been kept at a respectful level and no one has body-shamed the actor.  Having seen what the trolls on Twitter have been up to in regards to the brothel scene, I appreciate the better level of discourse here.

(Yeah, I know, Twitter is a cesspool, but I only go there for one reason and I don't want to stop at this point.  Might have to stop eventually, though.)

[ChicksDigScars]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:44 AM, gail56 said:

To be clear about my feelings about Otto, I have no sympathy for the man. He rightly reaped what he sowed. The look on his face when he realized all his machinations led to this was hilarious. What he said to Aegon was true and that dressing down was fun to watch!

Still, as others have said, Criston Cole is now at the top of the people I want to see die list.

Same. One satisfying Otto scene does not erase the hate that I feel for the character, entirely. It's just that right now, pretty, dumb, bitter, sex toy Crispy has taken the top spot. It's like when the number one song on Kasey Kasem's American Top 40, would slip to #2 and a new one takes it's place at #1. Sometimes the old #1 rebounds and takes back its spot.  If Crispy becomes a flaming man kabob for a dragon any time soon, Otto will regain the #1 position, I'm sure of it.

Edited June 28 by ChicksDigScars

[paigow]

As some characters exist only for exposition, Otto is the plot catalyst.

[magdalene]

Don't feel too bad, Otto, the guy you are most compared to died on the toilet.  You have a ways to go.

To all the people who feel compelled to give Fabian Frankel a bad time because he plays Criston - shame on you. You know Fabian and Matt Smith are good friends in real life even though they play enemies. Gasp! These kind of things happen to actors.  Rolls eyes.

Edited June 29 by magdalene

[CeeBeeGee]

45 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Don't feel too bad, Otto, the guy you are most compared to died on the toilet.  You have a ways to go.

To all the people who feel compelled to give Fabian Frankel a bad time because he plays Criston - shame on you. You know Fabian and Matt Smith are good friends in real life even though they play enemies. Gasp! These kind of things happen to actors.  Rolls eyes.

Ugh. People used to buttonhole David Schwimmer and harangue him for Ross's latest Rachel drama. Grow up, people.

(Although my favorite anecdote like that is in the late summer/early fall of 1990, people would recognize Patrick Stewart on the street and yell from their cars "You ruined my summer!" in response to the cliffhanger ending of Season 3 of Star Trek: The Next Generation, "The Best of Both Worlds" when Picard is assimilated as a Borg. "Mr. Worf...fire!")

[iMonrey]

14 hours ago, magdalene said:

To all the people who feel compelled to give Fabian Frankel a bad time because he plays Criston

His name is Fabian? OMG.

[rhygirl720]

When Otto is your voice of reason.... there's a problem.

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

His name is Fabian? OMG.

I am sure he is not getting death threats because of his name.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I am sure he is not getting death threats because of his name.

Are you kidding me?! Never mind, I know you're not.  But that is heinous.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:08 AM, AntFTW said:

Tywin didn’t have to be. Joffrey was kind of afraid of him and submitted to Tywin. Joffrey didn’t have the balls to push back on Tywin the way Aegon did to Otto.

Joffrey barely had the balls to push back on Tyrion, and only did so in public where others would back him up for making fun of Tyrion because of his size/looks.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 10:14 AM, iMonrey said:

Joffrey was also younger than Aegon, from what I can tell. Everyone knew the Lannisters were the real power behind the throne, and that meant Tywin. Otto, on the other hand, has tried to be more stealth about steering things from behind the curtain. HIs position has always been more fragile.

I think it is worth pointing a few things out:

1. It was well-established that the line of succession would run through Joffrey as he was perceived to be the oldest son of King Robert and Queen Cersei. It was only recently established that Aegon would be in the line of succession at all. So it stands to reason that Joffrey would be better prepared in what it takes to be king.

2. Viserys was kind of shitty as a king in general, and his prep of the family was presumably equally lackluster. Especially the Green half of his family, which he seemingly did not have half the affection he did for Rhae. Between King Robert not being great but still better, and Tywin, Cersei and probably to some extent Jaimie and Tyrion giving Joffrey guidance and boundaries, Joffrey was better prepared to realize even as king there were things he had to think about.

3. Aegon is drunk on a century or so of the Targaryens being in power and the Targaryens and their close allies having control of all the dragons. It is easier for him to be dismissive of any non-Targaryen, even one with whom he shares blood ties. Whereas, Joffrey is seemingly with more allegiance to the Lannisters than the Baratheons. If there had been someone who was neither a Lannister nor a Baratheon who treated him like Tywin/Tyrion did, I don't think they would have gotten away with it. 

[AntFTW]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Viserys was kind of shitty as a king in general

Was he though? 🤔

His reign was pretty uneventful, which is apparently pretty hard to accomplish in the HotD/GoT universe. He was a steady hand steering the ship and his time was peaceful. He did the boring work of governing and took it seriously.

Edited June 30 by AntFTW

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

His name is Fabian? OMG.

Fabien.  I pronounce it the French way when I say it but who knows if that's correct.

Just now, AntFTW said:

Was he though? 🤔

His reign was pretty uneventful, which is apparently pretty hard to accomplish in the HotD/GoT universe. He was a steady hand steering the ship and his time was peaceful. He did the boring work of governing and took it seriously.

Yeah, I don't Viserys was a bad king, although he definitely benefited from not having any major conflicts during his reign.  He was, however, a bad father, especially to his children with Alicent.  You'd think that after wanting sons so badly, he'd have actually fathered them.

Edited June 30 by proserpina65

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Was he though? 🤔

His reign was pretty uneventful, which is apparently pretty hard to accomplish in the HotD/GoT universe. He was a steady hand steering the ship and his time was peaceful. He did the boring work of governing and took it seriously.

I would still say yes.

Yes, the realm was at peace generally during his time. How much, though, was because of his actual efforts and how much of that was just luck/dragons? (One could say he kind of bungled the war in the Stepstones, letting rando pirates drag things out until Daemon just had enough.)

His inability to foresee the grasping nature of the Hightowers, to not prepare for the obvious problem that naming a female as his heir in a sexist-af society would cause, his inability/unwillingness to deal with the fact of Rhae's bastard children and the ramifications of that are all major flaws in his reign.

Even giving him full credit for the peace and prosperity during his reign, his failure to properly ready for a line of succession and to anticipate and fend off the moves of other players IMO tarnish him as a shitty king who for the last dozen or so years of his life did little besides occasionally make Ali have unfulfilling sex and work on his King's Landing model. 

Edited June 30 by Chicago Redshirt

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Yes, the realm was at peace generally during his time. How much, though, was because of his actual efforts and how much of that was just luck/dragons?

My question in response to that is... does it make a difference? I don't think so.

To continue my metaphor, all he had to do was keep the ship steady. His job was to maintain stability and that task seems very hard to accomplish in Westerosi politics, and Viserys accomplished that. He maintained stability and kept the peace.

29 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

His inability to foresee the grasping nature of the Hightowers, to not prepare for the obvious problem that naming a female as his heir in a sexist-af society would cause, his inability/unwillingness to deal with the fact of Rhae's bastard children and the ramifications of that are all major flaws in his reign.

I see and understand that point of view... but I think the argument can also be made that Viserys played the hand he was dealt because he had nothing but bad options available to him at every turn.

Viserys saw that Daemon couldn't be the Heir; he was unworthy of the throne. Therefore, he names his only child at the time as Heir. I do think that decision was a probably emotional because I believe he loved Aemma, never really got over her death and felt guilty about her death. He couldn't think about future possibility of remarrying and having a son at the time because he was still stuck on Aemma.

However, everyone expects him to remarry and eventually have a son. Then, he does remarry, has a son, and now everyone expects Aegon to be named Heir eventually. Then, it turns out Aegon ain't shit. He has a second son, Aemond, and he ain't shit either.

Viserys had Rhaenyra as Heir, but that can obviously cause some friction because she's a woman and she has this "rumor" of her sons being bastards hanging over her head. He had Daemon as Heir Presumptive, and two potentials in Aegon and Aemond... all three selfish people that don't mind making other people's lives hell for their own amusement or advancement.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

his inability/unwillingness to deal with the fact of Rhae's bastard children and the ramifications of that are all major flaws in his reign.

What exactly was he was supposed to do?  Order a DNA test? Laenor claimed them as his kids. Therefore, they were Velaryons. Corlys claimed them as Velaryons. Therefore, they are Velaryons. They are only ones whose word mattered. Just because the Hightowers claimed otherwise didn’t mean shit. If Laenor said they were his kids, his daughter says they are his kids, what exactly is Viserys supposed to do?  There would have been no ramifications if the Hightowers hadn’t started a war in their own arrogant grasp for power.  
 

The only one who had an issue was his bitch of a wife who had her own ulterior motives.  She didn’t have any proof otherwise.  Neither did anyone else.  And it matters not.  They usurped Rhaenyra’s throne.  Not her kids. If them supposedly being illegitimate is a problem, usurp the throne from them.  But of course, that was never the real issue. If it was, Rhaenyra had two sons with the right hair color that they couldn’t accuse of being bastards, so why not demand that one of them be made heir?  But then that would mean one of Daemon’s sons being heir and the Hightowers hated him, so that wouldn’t work. The bastards excuse is just weak and redundant at this point. The Hightowers wanted power.  The end. Otto had his plans to take Rhaenyra’s throne and have her replaced as heir long before she had any child, bastard or not, but some love to conveniently forget about that. Why? Because she was a woman. And Alicent? Just a jealous, self-righteous hypocrite who was looking for any reason to get back at Rhaenyra because she hated that Rhaenyra didn’t live her life the way Alicent saw fit. 
 

The Hightowers had no real, or valid reason to usurp Rhaenyra’s throne. They just wanted to be the ones in power. Viserys was weak and guilty of a lot in the lead up to what happened, but not following along with the “bastards” nonsense was one of the best things he ever did.  He loved Rhaenyra. Right or wrong, he loved her. Why should he not do everything in his power to protect her and not destroy her life for the Hightowers? It’s okay for them to lie, kill, manipulate, and use their positions to get what they want for themselves and their family, but not Viserys?  Viserys’s biggest mistake was ever trusting Otto Hightower and letting him pimp out his daughter to him. For all the talk about Daemon, he was 100% correct about Otto and his assessment of Viserys as weak all the way back in episode 1. 
 

 

Edited June 30 by KBrownie

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Otto had his plans to take Rhaenyra’s throne and have her replaced as heir long before she had any child, bastard or not, but some love to conveniently forget about that. Why? Because she was a woman.

Agreed. As long as Otto was alive, he was always going to try to usurp the throne from Rhaenyra.

Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the only reason Otto comes back as Hand after Viserys fired him was because Larys killed his own father, who had replaced Otto as Hand, for Alicent.

I don’t think there was a way of avoiding conflict after Viserys died no matter what Viserys did. Everybody around him was looking for something to fight about. The best he could do was keep the peace while he was alive.

[KBrownie]

Exactly. 
 

Daemon has always been absolutely correct in calling Viserys weak.  He just wanted everyone to be cool with each other and was never interested in doing much more than just trying to appease everyone. 
 

Bringing Otto back was another major mistake on Viserys’s part.  Did he really think that Otto somehow changed and magically was going to stop plotting and doing the same things that got him fired the first time? 
 

I will say that not everyone around him was looking for something to fight about. Rhaenyra, as the heir and the Princess of Dragonstone, was minding her business and ruling her household and the small folk on Dragonstone as part of her preparation for ascending the throne. She gets a lot of criticism for not being in King’s Landing, but she was doing her duty as the Princess of Dragonstone. Bonus for her was to raise her family in peace away from being terrorized by Alicent. Although part of me wishes what Alicent’s reaction would have been to the births of her and Daemon’s white-haired children.  She wouldn’t have dared to summon those babies be brought to her for inspection.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

My question in response to that is... does it make a difference? I don't think so.

To continue my metaphor, all he had to do was keep the ship steady. His job was to maintain stability and that task seems very hard to accomplish in Westerosi politics, and Viserys accomplished that. He maintained stability and kept the peace.

I see and understand that point of view... but I think the argument can also be made that Viserys played the hand he was dealt because he had nothing but bad options available to him at every turn.

Viserys saw that Daemon couldn't be the Heir; he was unworthy of the throne. Therefore, he names his only child at the time as Heir. I do think that decision was a probably emotional because I believe he loved Aemma, never really got over her death and felt guilty about her death. He couldn't think about future possibility of remarrying and having a son at the time because he was still stuck on Aemma.

However, everyone expects him to remarry and eventually have a son. Then, he does remarry, has a son, and now everyone expects Aegon to be named Heir eventually. Then, it turns out Aegon ain't shit. He has a second son, Aemond, and he ain't shit either.

Viserys had Rhaenyra as Heir, but that can obviously cause some friction because she's a woman and she has this "rumor" of her sons being bastards hanging over her head. He had Daemon as Heir Presumptive, and two potentials in Aegon and Aemond... all three selfish people that don't mind making other people's lives hell for their own amusement or advancement.

I would say that it is not just keeping the peace during one's lifetime that should be the measure of how good a king was, but also maintaining the dynasty. And Viserys failed miserably at that. Had he taken more steps, his house would not have found itself in this civil war. Yes, he was dealt not the greatest of hands. But I'd say that many of his choices, from falling for Otto pimping Ali out in the first place rather than the better matches available to him, to not being firmer with Rhae or Dae, to allowing the Hightowers to run rampant are all on him. He lay the groundwork for what was a major decllne in the Targaryen dynasty.

4 hours ago, KBrownie said:

What exactly was he was supposed to do?  Order a DNA test? Laenor claimed them as his kids. Therefore, they were Velaryons. Corlys claimed them as Velaryons. Therefore, they are Velaryons. They are only ones whose word mattered. Just because the Hightowers claimed otherwise didn’t mean shit. If Laenor said they were his kids, his daughter says they are his kids, what exactly is Viserys supposed to do?  There would have been no ramifications if the Hightowers hadn’t started a war in their own arrogant grasp for power.  
 

The only one who had an issue was his bitch of a wife who had her own ulterior motives.  She didn’t have any proof otherwise.  Neither did anyone else.  And it matters not.  They usurped Rhaenyra’s throne.  Not her kids. If them supposedly being illegitimate is a problem, usurp the throne from them.  But of course, that was never the real issue. If it was, Rhaenyra had two sons with the right hair color that they couldn’t accuse of being bastards, so why not demand that one of them be made heir?  But then that would mean one of Daemon’s sons being heir and the Hightowers hated him, so that wouldn’t work. The bastards excuse is just weak and redundant at this point. The Hightowers wanted power.  The end. Otto had his plans to take Rhaenyra’s throne and have her replaced as heir long before she had any child, bastard or not, but some love to conveniently forget about that. Why? Because she was a woman. And Alicent? Just a jealous, self-righteous hypocrite who was looking for any reason to get back at Rhaenyra because she hated that Rhaenyra didn’t live her life the way Alicent saw fit. 
 

The Hightowers had no real, or valid reason to usurp Rhaenyra’s throne. They just wanted to be the ones in power. Viserys was weak and guilty of a lot in the lead up to what happened, but not following along with the “bastards” nonsense was one of the best things he ever did.  He loved Rhaenyra. Right or wrong, he loved her. Why should he not do everything in his power to protect her and not destroy her life for the Hightowers? It’s okay for them to lie, kill, manipulate, and use their positions to get what they want for themselves and their family, but not Viserys?  Viserys’s biggest mistake was ever trusting Otto Hightower and letting him pimp out his daughter to him. For all the talk about Daemon, he was 100% correct about Otto and his assessment of Viserys as weak all the way back in episode 1. 
 

 

Anyone with eyes could tell that they weren't Laenor's kids. You don't have to do DNA testing to come to the conclusion that something's up when the kids of two people with platinum blonde hair come out with super-dark hair. 

Viserys had to know on some level that there were rumors of infidelity and bastardry even assuming that he wasn't hearing such from Otto or Ali pretty directly. And yes, there's not an obvious solution once there's a third apparent bastard, but maybe he could have acted before and counseled Rhae that she had to watch that, that for better or worse, she can't just screw around like a prince could, that she's going to face unfair challenges to her rule because she was a woman and she didn't need to be adding to them. 

Ali isn't the only one who cares. She's just one of the only ones who is at least somewhat willing to speak out. There was that Velaryon who spoke out who Daemon summarily killed in open court for calling out the kids as bastards. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Yes, the Hightowers are power-hungry. But they do have a point -- the realm is not interested in having a woman be an heir. That's why Rhaenys is the Queen Who Never Was even though she is far smarter and is olderr than Viserys. IIRC. It is not just propaganda from Otto that the Realm would never follow a queen as heir -- Rhaenys told Rhae from her own experience that it would be a hard sell. 

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Yes, the Hightowers are power-hungry. But they do have a point -- the realm is not interested in having a woman be an heir. That's why Rhaenys is the Queen Who Never Was even though she is far smarter and is olderr than Viserys. IIRC. It is not just propaganda from Otto that the Realm would never follow a queen as heir -- Rhaenys told Rhae from her own experience that it would be a hard sell.

I don't disagree that there likely would have been war within the realm if Rhaenyra ascended to the throne. Daemon, Aegon and Aemond are all stubborn, selfish, unworthy shitheads.

I guess my question is... what was the better alternative for Viserys? What would have left the realm better than it is? and I definitely don't think the answer to either question is Daemon, Aegon or Aemond becoming King. To me, this seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

I don't see a choice along the way that Viserys had would have left the realm better off after he died.

Sure, Viserys could have married someone else but I don't think any of us can say with certainty that he and the realm would have been better off for it. He could have married into another family that's just as power-hungry as Otto. Given that he did marry Alicent and had children with her... what were better alternatives after that point?

Edited July 1 by AntFTW

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Given that he did marry Alicent and had children with her... what were better alternatives after that point?

He could have abdicated before his disease made him feeble and crowned Rhaenyra. It's not unheard off. Maester Aemon (from the Night's Watch) refused the crown when it was offered to him as the next in line, for example. Granted, that happened many years later, but Kings abdicating and people not pressing their claims was something this medieval society knew about.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don't disagree that there likely would have been war within the realm if Rhaenyra ascended to the throne. Daemon, Aegon and Aemond are all stubborn, selfish, unworthy shitheads.

I guess my question is... what was the better alternative for Viserys? What would have left the realm better than it is? and I definitely don't think the answer to either question is Daemon, Aegon or Aemond becoming King. To me, this seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

I don't see a choice along the way that Viserys had would have left the realm better off after he died.

Sure, Viserys could have married someone else but I don't think any of us can say with certainty that he and the realm would have been better off for it. He could have married into another family that's just as power-hungry as Otto. Given that he did marry Alicent and had children with her... what were better alternatives after that point?

Politically, it probably would have been better to declare that the line of succession ran through either Daemon or Aegon. Although neither would probably be very good at being king, neither would likely plunge the realm in a war where thousands will die, like having Rhae as queen almost certainly will.

But if you are going to back Rhae, you have to back her all the way. You have to give her the tools to rule, and you have to spot the threats to her queendom, some of which are unavoidable, but some of which could have been mitigated. 

Let's say for the sake of discussion that Rhae absolutely was the best choice for successor.

So a more crafty/capable Viserys would have realized what the Hightowers were capable of and actively doing and put a stop to it, or better set Rhae up for success to fend for herself.

Viserys did not equip Rhae well to play the Game of Thrones. She has few allies seemingly -- the Starks and the Arryns, while Team Green has seemingly a line on most of the rest. The Lannisters and their gold, the Greyjoys, the Hightowers, King's Landing itself, the Baratheons...

Maybe it's unfair to hold it against him since he was so old and on heavy drugs. But Viserys should have had much more foresight about all this when he wasn't held together with milk of the poppy.

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would still say yes.

Yes, the realm was at peace generally during his time. How much, though, was because of his actual efforts and how much of that was just luck/dragons? (One could say he kind of bungled the war in the Stepstones, letting rando pirates drag things out until Daemon just had enough.)

His inability to foresee the grasping nature of the Hightowers, to not prepare for the obvious problem that naming a female as his heir in a sexist-af society would cause, his inability/unwillingness to deal with the fact of Rhae's bastard children and the ramifications of that are all major flaws in his reign.

Even giving him full credit for the peace and prosperity during his reign, his failure to properly ready for a line of succession and to anticipate and fend off the moves of other players IMO tarnish him as a shitty king who for the last dozen or so years of his life did little besides occasionally make Ali have unfulfilling sex and work on his King's Landing model. 

I wouldn't say Viserys was a shitty king, necessarily.  He was, however, a weak king who benefitted from having few real crises during his reign, and the ones he did have (the Stepstones, the succession), he bungled badly.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, AntFTW said:

However, everyone expects him to remarry and eventually have a son. Then, he does remarry, has a son, and now everyone expects Aegon to be named Heir eventually. Then, it turns out Aegon ain't shit. He has a second son, Aemond, and he ain't shit either.

Who knows how either of them would've turned out if they'd actually had a father who bothered to pay any attention to them, though?  They had a shit father who barely noticed they existed most of the time.  Maybe if he'd named Aegon heir at the second name day celebration, as literally everyone there including Rhaenyra expected, and then saw to it that he was raised to take that responsibility seriously, the boy would've turned out better.

There was no chance of there not being war over the succession from the moment Viserys fathered a living son because half the realm would never have accepted a woman on the throne as long as there was a viable male alternative.

14 hours ago, KBrownie said:

Rhaenyra, as the heir and the Princess of Dragonstone, was minding her business and ruling her household and the small folk on Dragonstone as part of her preparation for ascending the throne.

When she should've been in King's Landing preparing to take the throne upon her father's death.  And had she been there once in the previous six years, she'd have realized how bad he was and how inevitable his death was.

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I wouldn't say Viserys was a shitty king, necessarily.  He was, however, a weak king who benefitted from having few real crises during his reign, and the ones he did have (the Stepstones, the succession), he bungled badly.

Agreed. I don't disagree that Viserys fumbled badly with the succession. I do think there are mitigating factors for his fumbling the succession. Overall, I don't think the succession alone makes him a shitty king.

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Politically, it probably would have been better to declare that the line of succession ran through either Daemon or Aegon. Although neither would probably be very good at being king, neither would likely plunge the realm in a war where thousands will die, like having Rhae as queen almost certainly will.

I don't have that same confidence in Daemon and Aegon. I think their impulsiveness had a strong likelihood of leading to some sort of rebellion. Even though that's a more speculative and less certain outcome than civil war if/when Rhaenyra ascends the throne, I can see how he would think that less certain outcome becomes more certain given the stubbornness, rashness and impulsiveness of his brother and son.

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But if you are going to back Rhae, you have to back her all the way. You have to give her the tools to rule, and you have to spot the threats to her queendom, some of which are unavoidable, but some of which could have been mitigated. 

I agree with this most of all. This has been my position since season 1. Since he chose Rhaenyra, he should have done everything in his power to ensure she had a smooth transition, or as smooth as feasibly possible. I also think that fell on Rhaenyra as well because Rhaenyra removed herself from the politics and from King's Landing. That's not a good move if you're the Heir. Rhaenyra knew parts of the realm would not accept a woman's rule so she should have, at least, stuck around and tried to gain the favor of those who would oppose.

Edited July 1 by AntFTW

[Roseanna]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:27 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I'm glad Rhaenyra was upset about the murder both because it was a little kid but also on Helaena's behalf. I'm telling you if those sisters had thought to band together they'd easily put the Hightowers in their place.

While I appreciate Alicent genuinely caring for Helaena she didn't care enough not to make her take part in that funeral farce. 

Royals can't put private feelings before their public duties. The funeral was politically necessary and Alicent had no power to prevent Helaena's presence.

On 6/24/2024 at 5:46 AM, scarynikki12 said:

It was also important for Rhaenyra to see and get the reminder that this war will be breaking up more families than hers. If she wants to win she'll need to be mindful of those losses rather than share similarities to Aegon. 

If she wants to win, she must do everything that is necessary to win and all good decisions is probably in vain.

On 6/24/2024 at 6:01 AM, thuganomics85 said:

There is always a risk with lionizing characters on this show, but the more it goes on, the more I'm really starting to believe Viserys was holding things together.  He wasn't a perfect man or king, but it's literally been about a week since his death and everything has just gone to hell in a hand-basket.  He might not have been the king Westeros wanted, but he apparently was the one they needed.  Folks will probably be thinking of his reign as the "good old days", once this is all over.

 

On 6/24/2024 at 7:33 PM, tennisgurl said:

Viserys might not have been a perfect person or king, but I do have to give him a ton of retroactive credit for holding things together as much as he did. He not only kept his big dysfunctional family was killing each other, which we can see couldn't have been easy, but he held the realm together. This episode was exhausting in the best way, the actors really sold the dire situation and the messy emotions. 

While comparing the present situation, Viserys wasn't a bad ruler. He was right to think that Daemon was unfit to rule.

However, in the same time Viserys bears the great, perhaps even greatest, responsibility for the power struggle. He named Rhaenyra as his heir but didn't teach her to the job. And getting sons by his second wife he produced claimants to the crown. He could have taken a mistress. He named his son Aegon and have no interest in his or Aemond's education.

On 6/24/2024 at 8:20 PM, KBrownie said:

She’s not the one who has consistently and arrogantly acted and assumed that their actions in causing war wouldn’t have dire, reverberating repercussions. That’s been the Greens this whole time. They are the ones who need a wake-up call. Still do apparently.  No self-reflection from any of them that any of their actions are responsible for anything that’s happened. 

It's true that Rhaenyra hasn't acted wrongly but she has acted foolishly and that's fateful for a ruler-in-waiting. She wasted for years of preparation and put her private feelings above her public interets.

On 6/26/2024 at 11:52 PM, Lady S. said:

Gotta say surprised by all the sympathy/respect for Otto who only reaped the consequences of his own actrions. Not only did he start all this by scheming for 20 years to get his grandson on the throne, but whose fault is it that the king is so uneducated? Aegon was never official heir but they had years with Viserys bedridden and Rhaenyra away from court to better prepare, he could've attended small council meetings during that time or been privately mentored by Otto. Instead it seems his and Ali's only idea of preparing Aegon was training him to see Rhaenyra and her sons as enemies. And why didn't Otto work harder to groom him for good kingship? Because all he wanted was another weak king like Viserys. But even if Aegon had kept that benevolent kind of weakness like in ep 2.01, that would still be a problem since unlike Viserys, Otto is unlikely to outlive his grandson. What was Aegon meant to do if/when Otto died? He'd have to learn how to think for himself (even just as much as to how to pick a worthy replacement for Otto as Hand) without mummy and grandpa at some point. Not only is Otto acting like he's immortal, he's ignoring that his deal with Vizzy worked as well as it did only because they had some basis in friendship. There's no such warmth in his relationship with Aegon, whose only real scene with grandpa in s1 was Otto kicking him awake and manhandling him when he passed out drunk at Laena's funeral. Just expecting total obedience from his family as extensions of himself, so then he acts shocked when telling the king his daddy never loved him gets him fired. Truly a mediocre ruler who only looks good because he's surrounded by greater idiocy on both his own side and the enemies'.

I don't think it's not wrong to acknowledge that Otto understands power politics, that his scheming to make Aegon the king shows foresight and skills and Aegon should have kept him as Hand.

However, you are entirely right that Otto dismissed the equally important task to raise Aegon to become fit for his role as the king. As you say, he probably believed he could rule if Aegon became a weak king. But he forgot that others could also manipulate him.

Also, not being worried about Aegon and Aemond's relationship already as kids was stupid - family must be united, otherwise it will go down.  

[Ottis]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:27 PM, scarynikki12 said:

This episode felt like watching a play at times. This is a compliment.

It did, though I do not view it as a compliment. Plays make broad strokes, leaning on excess emoting and loud talking to carry a scene. Television doesn't have to do that. Television can have a much more intricate plot, with subtleties and twists.

This show IS like a play - loud and obvious, and excessively emotional. And? Not especially interesting.