S05.E09: Lagrange Point

[paulvdb]

Quote

After Moll and the Breen capture a mysterious structure that contains the Progenitors' power, Captain Burnham must lead a covert mission to retrieve it before the Breen figure out how to use it.

Premiere date: May 23, 2024

[AnimeMania]

[NeenerNeener]

"Holy Schnoodle". LOL! 

I'm still watching the episode and expecting Saru to end up dead by the end of it. I hope I'm wrong.

 

ETA: it ended before that point. I still think Saru ends up dead before his wedding, but maybe they bring him back with the Creation tech.

Edited May 23 by NeenerNeener

[dwmarch]

Got to love a Johnathan Frakes episode for that nice, crispy direction. I noticed some visual flair too, particularly that triptych shot where the characters were all acknowledging an order. The shuttlebay invasion sequence was pretty good too. It reminded me of the ramming sequence in Nemesis which was some serious visual spectacle (for Star Trek) at the time.

Speaking of the shuttlebay sequence, was it necessary to blow everything out into space? I think they might have just explained it poorly. What they should have said is that they could get into transporter range if they were in that shuttlebay but they'd have to get through that forcefield first and the process of doing so would vent the bay to space. Instead they made it sound like venting the bay was the plan and they'd just pick everything up after which is super dangerous for the tiny squishy people in amongst all that debris. There's a wide shot of the shuttlebay when it blows out and my first thought was that everybody in there who wasn't strapped down was now chunky salsa.

I have complained about Discovery's lack of an intruder alert system but it seems the same is true for the Breen so I guess it just fell out of style at some point? Or more realistically, they have one but Discovery can spoof it, like any number of police procedurals where someone loops the footage from a security camera.

A reviewer noted that black holes and falling into such typically results in time dilation effects which didn't seem to be the case here. It would have been funny if they jumped into the wrong spot, hustled to get out and then found out that because of time dilation what took them a few minutes was actually a month of regular time and the Breen warped off laughing a long time ago. Cut to using the black holes to do some super time warping thing so that Disco could turn this around. But all things being equal (or should I say all things being good?) we've had the right amount of Star Trek finales where time travel saves the day.

A part of me is hoping that L'ak isn't even dead and it will turn out that he and Moll are both agents of Kovich. The Progenitors technology is just a fancy greeting card that says "why can't we all just get along?" and the entire season has been a Section 31 plot to screw the Breen over.

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, dwmarch said:

A part of me is hoping that L'ak isn't even dead and it will turn out that he and Moll are both agents of Kovich. The Progenitors technology is just a fancy greeting card that says "why can't we all just get along?" and the entire season has been a Section 31 plot to screw the Breen over.

I wonder if the Progenitor's tech is a part of Kovich's white room? It would probably piss Michael off to find out Kovich started this red directive mission to get more toys for Section 31...

I would have liked to see the female Primarch, but there was already too much going on in this episode.

[catsitter]

Did they explain why the universal translater doesn't work as normal with Breen speech?

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, it was hard to put into words at first, but even before the opening credits, I could tell that this was a Jonathan Frakes directed episode.  Even with the updated looks/CGI, he just shoots certain scenes in ways that feel more like old-school Trek that I always dig.  Hopefully he'll continue to always pop in whenever NuTrek needs an old reliable hand for their episodes (depending how long the franchise last.  Paramount has been kind of weird about it, lately.)

No surprise that the Breen would manage to beat Discovery to the final structure, and that the crew would need to sneak in to get it back.  There way in kind of had vibes of how there just happened to be one random spot on the Death Star to blow it up, but I guess it wouldn't be Trek if there wasn't one reliable source of structure incompetence to sneak aboard a ship!  The way they got around is another reminder that having your entire force's faces be covered is a sure fire way to have your enemies move around with ease.

I generally like Eve Harlow, but Moll just feels underwhelming as a final opponent because she comes off more like an angsty teen than an actual threat.  Kind of wish she was the one that was taken out and L'ak was the one trying to bring her back, because Elias Toufexis (and his epic voice) at least has a presence about him that would have made those confrontation scenes have more impact.

Rayner finally sits in the captain's chair!

Pleasantly surprised Rhys made it out in one piece and didn't fall into the whole "Non regular on an away mission is doomed!!" moment.

Saru finally returns!  Still wonder if this absence was always planned or if Doug Jones was working on something else at the time of filming.  Looks like he is going to be in the thick of it soon and they are already hinting at him possibly being in danger.  I can definitely see him "dying", but then the technology is used to save him.  But I refuse to believe he and T'Rina will not have that wedding!  

[marinw]

Rayner has balls. So many balls.

[dwmarch]

I guess that's why he doesn't want to sit in the chair.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, catsitter said:

Did they explain why the universal translater doesn't work as normal with Breen speech?

It clearly works to a large extent -- Michael and our heroes were able to communicate with Breen with no issues. Moll may not be equipped with one at all, or the ones that Our Heroes are using might be extra special somehow.

One has to just accept that the UT is magic anyway, as it can instantaneously translate languages, even on the first encounter with the people who speak it. 

One also has to accept that some of the discussions that Our Heroes had on the Breen ship must have somehow just been amongst themselves because if they outwardly broadcast the things about them being infiltrators and their plan, and about hurrying things up or slowing things down, it would have blown their cover. 

[paigow]

Pine!Kirk ejected and detonated the warp core to defeat black hole gravity.. 

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I can definitely see him "dying", but then the technology is used to save him.  But I refuse to believe he and T'Rina will not have that wedding!  

If they keep pasting from TOS: Balance Of Terror , Saru will get killed right after the wedding.... 

[paigow]

Burnham is outnumbered 3:1 whichever dimension she emerges in...

[paigow]

Did Elon Musk build that tiny pattern buffer? How much power is required to prevent degradation?

[AWhittle]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:48 AM, paigow said:

Burnham is outnumbered 3:1 whichever dimension she emerges in...

But... the "Booker" in the library said she was worthy of the power. So she would have an edge wherever she went inside that damn thing.

Knowing the show, some final showdown between the two ladies. Michael wins, maybe brings back Lak to satisfy Mall, deals with the Breen threat.

Then attends the Saru marriage, reconcile with the real Booker etc.

We'll see

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, AWhittle said:

But... the "Booker" in the library said she was worthy of the power. So she would have an edge wherever she went inside that damn thing.

Knowing the show, some final showdown between the two ladies. Michael wins, maybe brings back Lak to satisfy Mall, deals with the Breen threat.

Then attends the Saru marriage, reconcile with the real Booker etc.

We'll see

Yes, there isn’t a lot to comment on at this stage of the story. Michael, as .i suspected, know something Moll doesn’t know about whatever is inside the barrel of godlike powers. Something will happen. 
 

I think that thing Book got in the library is a world seed. The powere will regrow his planet, presumable not the people. 
 

i do find Moll annoying, petulant.  I have seen a lot of shows she is in and didn’t remember the actress specifically, aI never go into the 100. Was she the lead? She is way to good at ordering the Breen around, her previous life doesn’t seem to indicate that she would have learned that level of military. 

[Chit Chat]

Why does Tilly continue to question Raynor's decisions?  She's his subordinate.  Maybe they don't teach the rules of the hierarchy anymore.  🙄

Burnham, once again, has to stop in the middle of a serious mission to discuss her feelings.  That is ridiculous.  Although I really hate the direction this show has taken, I will watch every last one of these, but I am counting down the days 'til the fork is stuck in this show and it's done!  

Moll continues her rule over the Breen.  Again, ridiculous.  YMMV. 

[paulvdb]

19 hours ago, Affogato said:

i do find Moll annoying, petulant.  I have seen a lot of shows she is in and didn’t remember the actress specifically, aI never go into the 100. Was she the lead?

No. She was a supporting character in the second season.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Why does Tilly continue to question Raynor's decisions?  She's his subordinate.  Maybe they don't teach the rules of the hierarchy anymore.  🙄

Tilly reviewed Starfleet archives and found the TNG log of Data temporarily commanding USS Sutherland.  She figured Hobson was an ideal role model for XO.

[Affogato]

The Discovery, Michael, is about questioning authority. But respectfully. This is not a strict hierarchy. If Raynor learns, he is adaptable. Remembering ‘let’s fly’ is inclusive. ‘Make it so’ is an order. 

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Remembering ‘let’s fly’ is inclusive. ‘Make it so’ is an order. 

I'd rather hear something along the lines of "let's kick ass" when going into battle rather than something as milquetoast as "let's fly."  ;)

It's a shame that it's not a strict hierarchy.  Some of the crew could use the discipline.  The show has wasted entirely too much time on how everybody feels.  Sorry, that's just not my thing.  In the Star Trek world, just do your job, be competent and then go talk to the counselor if you're having issues.  Some characters over analyze things and it makes me bored!!  YMMV.

 

 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

I'd rather hear something along the lines of "let's kick ass" when going into battle rather than something as milquetoast as "let's fly."  ;)

It's a shame that it's not a strict hierarchy.  Some of the crew could use the discipline.  The show has wasted entirely too much time on how everybody feels.  Sorry, that's just not my thing.  In the Star Trek world, just do your job, be competent and then go talk to the counselor if you're having issues.  Some characters over analyze things and it makes me bored!!  YMMV.

 

 

Ah, but then where is the space for understanding and change for the better? Growth? Fewer battles!

Edited May 27 by Affogato

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Ah, but then where is the space for understanding and change for the better? Growth? Fewer battles!

There is room for personal growth, but I don't care to have the show go on ad infinitum with each character, especially when they're in the middle of a crisis!  I'm all for fewer wars/battles, but in the history of mankind, sadly, it's a reality.  

I don't like how Tilly questions authority.  Raynor knew things about Michael (their previous conversation and how he figured out what she was going to do while on the Breen ship) that Tilly wasn't privy too, but yet she questioned him.  My working world isn't like that, and I think it's ridiculous that she gets away with the attitude she throws around sometimes.  YMMV.

[paigow]

21 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

I don't like how Tilly questions authority.

Holly Hunter is officially the boss of Starfleet Academy... Tilly is not going to last very long as an instructor...

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

There is room for personal growth, but I don't care to have the show go on ad infinitum with each character, especially when they're in the middle of a crisis!  I'm all for fewer wars/battles, but in the history of mankind, sadly, it's a reality.  

I don't like how Tilly questions authority.  Raynor knew things about Michael (their previous conversation and how he figured out what she was going to do while on the Breen ship) that Tilly wasn't privy too, but yet she questioned him.  My working world isn't like that, and I think it's ridiculous that she gets away with the attitude she throws around sometimes.  YMMV.

Well she did change career paths. This is a special assignment. 

[tennisgurl]

I do love when Jonathan Frakes shows up to sit in the directors chair, he always knows how to give us a feeling of classic Trek while also making use of new technology. He also usually has a few more notable stylistic choices than most directors on Discovery but not too many to be distracting, I hope he comes back and does a few episodes of SNW next. 

I like the idea of exploring the Breen more and having them as the final boss, but Moll is a really lame Big Bad, especially for our last villains of the series. It sort of reminds me of the finale of Enterprise where the final battle was just against some random crooks, although I have to hope that this show wraps up better than that one did. She doesn't really have a goal beyond saving her boyfriend, she isn't smart or chiasmatic enough that I buy her becoming a Breen leader, her connection to the main characters is too tenuous to be emotional, she isn't all that sympathetic, she comes off more of an angsty teen than a badass threat to the crew, the only reason she isn't in a Federation prison now is because the writers have to keep making everyone else incompetent to give her wins. I also keep imagining her leaving the Breen every five seconds to reapply her grungy eye makeup. 

Honestly I like Michael, but girl, you need to stop having big emotional moments right in the middle of battles! The gang infiltrating the Breen was pretty fun, the cargo bay stuff was exciting, you could really see Frakes's experience with space action. I would honestly think that more people would have infiltrated the Breen before, all you need is a helmet and a tough guy attitude. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:49 PM, Chit Chat said:

Why does Tilly continue to question Raynor's decisions?  She's his subordinate.  Maybe they don't teach the rules of the hierarchy anymore.  🙄

There probably has never been a point in Trek where subordinates never questioned the orders of their superiors. In TOS, McCoy routinely talks smack about Spock's command decisions, and in the Galileo Seven, basically the entire shuttle crew (except for Scotty) was one step away from mutiny. Movie Kirk blew off the orders of the Federation bigwigs when they said not to rescue Spock in III, Movie crew blew off orders when they rescued Spock and Kirk from Rura Penthe, Sulu did when he helped his old crew fight off the Bird of Prey that could cloak. I could go on.

Jumping ahead to Discovery, Raynor questions his superiors orders a fair amount too. Just last episode, he was giving lip to T'rina. 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I would honestly think that more people would have infiltrated the Breen before, all you need is a helmet and a tough guy attitude. 

Also, how much size diversity is there amongst the Breen? "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"

[paigow]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Also, how much size diversity is there amongst the Breen? "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"

Body shaming is part of Breen boot camp...

[fastiller]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I do love when Jonathan Frakes shows up to sit in the directors chair, he always knows how to give us a feeling of classic Trek while also making use of new technology. He also usually has a few more notable stylistic choices than most directors on Discovery but not too many to be distracting, I hope he comes back and does a few episodes of SNW next. 

 

Same.  So very much same.  I actually squeed at seeing his name in the credits.

[Chit Chat]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Jumping ahead to Discovery, Raynor questions his superiors orders a fair amount too.

Not to excuse him, but it's probably difficult to take orders from those younger and less experienced than him, but yes, he should follow protocol too. 

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Just last episode, he was giving lip to T'rina. 

He mouthed off in a meeting and then she called him a Xenophobe.  What she said was totally inexcusable because she didn't bother to ask him to explain why he said what he did.  She should've handled that situation better than that.  

[Affogato]

It is interesting to see the different leadership styles in Star Trek. I think Discovery has pushed the envelope of this. In any case, Tilly’s nature is part of what made Tilly and Michael friends, and it hasn’t changed a lot over the show. They have grown in self understanding and in other areas, but they are still the same people.

I hesitate to open a can of worms and say that often women form groups that are less hierarchical, with everyone having a voice and everyone potentially being consulted in decisions.  There are advantages to this way of operating and some disadvantages. 

[paigow]

12 hours ago, Affogato said:

I hesitate to open a can of worms and say that often women form groups that are less hierarchical, with everyone having a voice and everyone potentially being consulted in decisions. 

The View   

[paigow]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:24 PM, tennisgurl said:

I would honestly think that more people would have infiltrated the Breen before, all you need is a helmet and a tough guy attitude. 

But there are weird feast cliques that require helmet removal and some sensitivity

[paigow]

That other dimension already has Darth Moll ... now Goth Moll gets added and the big fight happens at Twin Pines Mall

[Joimiaroxeu]

Burnham's "Let's jump" is just slightly less silly than her "Let's fly."

Loved how the Breen swept in and snatched the prize while Burnham was taking time to pat herself on the back.

So why doesn't Space Daniel Craig ever sit in the captain's chair when Burnham leaves him in charge? Superstition? Feelings of unworthiness?

I don't really understand the Breen helmet technology. Burnham's three feet of hair fit in it without a bulge.

Bad time to have a relationship discussion, while you're sneaking around on an enemy ship. Michael and Book are ridiculous.

Rayner does have a lot of nervous energy. It works for him so back off, Tilly.

Book flirting with a Breen. Didn't sound like he swings the Breen playboy's way though, ha ha.

Burnham and Moll, two nutbag sides of the same coin. Why would they jump inside that thing not knowing where they'd end up or if they'd survive the trip?

Rhy's fight with those Breen soldiers looked like something straight out of Star Wars. Those sticks they using were practically light sabers.

Let's do this! Yay, Raynor!