S03.E03: He Sees Dead People

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Another classic Hetty-ism: "No one has more to lose than the rich. Yet no one ever looks out for us."

I need to quote this line somewhere.😉

 

[iMonrey]

15 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Poor Alberta. Solving her murder didn't even make Jay's list of things that happened. :( 

"You son of a bitch."

Quote

Hetty's de-aging was... weird. I couldn't actually tell if it was extremely heavy make up (her face looked as white as Margot Robbie in Mary Queen of Scots)

It was a little Baby Jane-ish, I'll grant you, but I'll let it slide. I don't really think the scene would have worked with a younger actress. You just wouldn't have the same investment. 

I'm on Nigel's side about the carrot cake. 🤢

[kathyk2]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I need to quote this line somewhere.😉

 

That line sounds like something Donald Trump would say.

[PaulE]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm on Nigel's side about the carrot cake. 

I like the cake but not, oddly, the cream cheese frosting that usually goes with it. 

As a devout cake-lover, this made me wonder if carrot cakes were really a thing in the eighteenth century, so, because obviously I have nothing more important to do, I did a little searching on the history.  According to Fraunces Tavern (the still-extant restaurant in lower Manhatttan where Washington bade farewell to his troops at the end of the war), they did use carrots in desserts back then, but it would have been more of a pudding or porridge.  So probably neither of the boys would really know what a modern carrot cake tastes like.

Which also led me to thinking that cakes would've been very different back then.  I don't think baking soda or baking powder existed, so the only leavening agent they would've had was eggs, and I once remember seeing a recipe in a reprint of an eighteenth-century cookbook that called for something like 20 eggs, and you had to beat them for two hours! (The cake would have been perfect to serve at the reception following the funeral for the baker after they died of exhaustion.). I'm guessing the texture would have been very dense, heavy, and crumbly.  Poor Isaac and Nigel have never really known the joys of modern cakes.

[Annber03]

I was thinking about that, too, yeah - were there any particular kinds of cakes that were especially popular in Britain in Nigel's day, that he might've been partial to? 

We also know that Isaac likes to watch bake off shows, so maybe he saw a particular kind of carrot cake being made on one of those that he really wants :p.  I do love the thought of Jay looking up cake recipies from the 1700s and trying to recreate those, though :D. 

Edited March 2 by Annber03

[seacliffsal]

As for the carrot cake discussion, maybe it smells more than other cakes and that's way Isaac would want it?  The cinnamon gives it a lovely smell, especially when it's baking.  Obviously, just IMO.

[PaulE]

42 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

As for the carrot cake discussion, maybe it smells more than other cakes and that's way Isaac would want it?  The cinnamon gives it a lovely smell, especially when it's baking.  Obviously, just IMO.

Makes sense, though.  An ordinary vanilla pound or sponge cake wouldn't have a particularly strong smell, whereas a carrot cake would.  I believe the traditional British wedding cake, a type of fruitcake with icing, has been the norm for a few hundred years, so probably the guys would have been familiar with that.  Myself, I'd take carrot cake over fruitcake any day, unless I also needed a doorstop.

Gotta go eat some cake now . . .

[DanaMB]

On 2/28/2024 at 2:34 PM, chaifan said:

Andrew Leeds had a recurring role in Bones as some creepy murdery guy, and ever since them I just have a hard time with him in light fluffy roles. 

That’s where I recognize him from. I couldn’t figure it out. 

[DanaMB]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:58 PM, ams1001 said:

I mostly know him from Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist 

And here! I have a terrible memory.

[proserpina65]

On 2/29/2024 at 9:34 PM, Katy M said:

I agree with Nigel.  You don't get married planning for divorce.  

If I was going into a marriage with a large fortune or house or a lot of assets I'd earned myself, I'd probably want to protect that and insist on a pre-nup, and I'd respect someone asking me to do the same.  But in Isaac's case, it's not like Nigel could spend the money without him agreeing because Sam would never do that.

On 2/29/2024 at 10:47 PM, shura said:

And how would he know before going to  Minnesota that Prince would still be hanging out here as a ghost?

Prince died at his home in Minnesota, so obviously if he was a ghost, that's where he'd be.  He seems like someone who had a lot of unfinished business when he died, so I'm betting he'd be a ghost by the Ghost Rules of the show.

On 2/29/2024 at 10:58 PM, PaulE said:

Poor Jay's making wedding cakes and then throwing them out.

I'm hoping he wasn't making full cakes, just mini ones in various flavors.  I'm with Isaac, carrot cake rules.  It's not the most practical thing for a wedding cake, but then they're only going to be smelling it.

On 3/1/2024 at 8:39 AM, chaifan said:

Wedding cakes are nice and traditional, but they have almost no smell.  If I were the ghosts, I'd want Jay to be making a never ending batch of chocolate chip cookies instead! 

That's why the flavor is so important.  Carrot cake has a wonderful spicy scent.

On 3/1/2024 at 11:39 AM, Snow Apple said:

eah, I think young Hetty would have worked better if they just changed her hairdo without that heavy makeup. That was just bad. 

Honestly I barely noticed.  I just accepted it.  I'm glad they didn't get a younger actress.

On 3/1/2024 at 12:30 PM, mammaM said:

"Don't be upset, be inspired by our words. Stop wasting your life sitting around not doing cocaine!" 

As always, Hattie for the win😂😂  

That was my favorite line, and this was an episode with included "fyorgy".

On 3/1/2024 at 11:19 PM, Maelstrom said:

Don’t throw the cakes out, Jay! Find somewhere to sell them, or give them as gifts/bribes to the neighbors. Maybe June and Allie like cake!

They could be dessert selections if there are guests at the B&B.

 

On 3/2/2024 at 2:28 PM, PaulE said:

According to Fraunces Tavern (the still-extant restaurant in lower Manhatttan where Washington bade farewell to his troops at the end of the war), they did use carrots in desserts back then, but it would have been more of a pudding or porridge.  So probably neither of the boys would really know what a modern carrot cake tastes like.

I've eaten there!  (Edited to note that I just looked at the menu for Fraunces Tavern and they have the right idea: the desserts are listed first!)

Since they can't eat the cake, it's the smell that's important, and carrot cake is more fragrant than a lot of other flavors.  Definitely more than what usually gets used as wedding cake.

On 3/2/2024 at 9:07 PM, PaulE said:

Gotta go eat some cake now . . .

Yep, now I want carrot cake.

 

Edited March 4 by proserpina65

[iMonrey]

33 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Prince died at his home in Minnesota, so obviously if he was a ghost, that's where he'd be.  He seems like someone who had a lot of unfinished business when he died, so I'm betting he'd be a ghost by the Ghost Rules of the show.

While traditional lore is that ghosts have "unfinished business," this show has not actually established that as the reason for the ghosts' being. In fact they themselves have made it clear they have no idea why they're still around. 

It seems like some of them might in fact have unfinished business - Thor being left behind for some unknown reason, Sass because he never got to be a storyteller, etc. But if Alberta is a ghost because she died under mysterious circumstances, that mystery has been solved so why is she still here? And if that wasn't it then what's her unfinished business? What was Flower's that got finished? 

I don't think there really is a rhyme or reason to it except that none of them seem to have died from old age or natural causes.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

While traditional lore is that ghosts have "unfinished business," this show has not actually established that as the reason for the ghosts' being. In fact they themselves have made it clear they have no idea why they're still around. 

It seems like some of them might in fact have unfinished business - Thor being left behind for some unknown reason, Sass because he never got to be a storyteller, etc. But if Alberta is a ghost because she died under mysterious circumstances, that mystery has been solved so why is she still here? And if that wasn't it then what's her unfinished business? What was Flower's that got finished? 

I don't think there really is a rhyme or reason to it except that none of them seem to have died from old age or natural causes.

Thanks for the correction.  I was mixing up speculation here with what the show has actually established (or not established, more accurately).  But it doesn't negate the idea that if Prince were a ghost, he'd still be where he died of not natural causes.

[shura]

9 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Thanks for the correction.  I was mixing up speculation here with what the show has actually established (or not established, more accurately).  But it doesn't negate the idea that if Prince were a ghost, he'd still be where he died of not natural causes.

The line was “He took me to Minnesota for my birthday to have dinner with Prince.”  This requires Eric either to know for a fact, in advance of the trip, that Prince is currently a ghost still haunting his place in Minnesota, or to just go there blindly without any reason to expect meeting Prince and somehow “succeed” at that. (Well, it worked for Sam’s mom, I suppose).  Anyway, it just felt to me like Bela would have caught on to Eric’s lie in a snap, just like she did when he pretended to have walked through Flower.

Btw, would he have to rent Prince’s mansion (that is now a museum) out to have dinner there or is there a food court?

[appositival]

9 hours ago, shura said:

Btw, would he have to rent Prince’s mansion (that is now a museum) out to have dinner there or is there a food court?

Looks like you would have to rent the kitchen and possibly a place to eat (Although Prince often entertained guests in his kitchen). I hope he isn't stuck in the elevator where he died.

"Are we gonna let the elevator bring us down?"
Let's Go Crazy - Prince Rogers Nelson

https://www.paisleypark.com/faq#space-rental

[shura]

"A Paisley Park spokesperson said space rentals start at $25,000 and can climb to $75,000."  That's one expensive dinner with an imaginary ghost 😀.  Eric is an architecht, right?  Bela would have had questions.

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/want-to-have-a-party-at-paisley-park-it-will-cost-you-between-25-000-and-75-000.5397509/

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, shura said:

The line was “He took me to Minnesota for my birthday to have dinner with Prince.”  This requires Eric either to know for a fact, in advance of the trip, that Prince is currently a ghost still haunting his place in Minnesota, or to just go there blindly without any reason to expect meeting Prince and somehow “succeed” at that. (Well, it worked for Sam’s mom, I suppose).  Anyway, it just felt to me like Bela would have caught on to Eric’s lie in a snap, just like she did when he pretended to have walked through Flower.

Btw, would he have to rent Prince’s mansion (that is now a museum) out to have dinner there or is there a food court?

Eh, I don't see why this is such a big deal.  Prince is dead and he died at his home in Minneapolis so it's not an unreasonable idea that his ghost would be there. I mean, accepting that there are ghosts to begin with seems a much bigger ask to me.

Now, the food question makes sense to me.  Maybe the museum has a cafe?

1 hour ago, shura said:

"A Paisley Park spokesperson said space rentals start at $25,000 and can climb to $75,000."  That's one expensive dinner with an imaginary ghost 😀.  Eric is an architecht, right?  Bela would have had questions.

https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/want-to-have-a-party-at-paisley-park-it-will-cost-you-between-25-000-and-75-000.5397509/

Thanks for the info.

[Johannah]

The ghosts in this show seem to be constricted by current property lines not buildings or elevators, so all you would have to do is go to the property (outside of a fence, even) and hope Prince decides to take a walk where you are and since that guy was making it all up anyway, he could have just hung around for awhile then said, "oh, here he comes now..."

 

[Bastet]

I roll my eyes so hard they risk getting stuck at naive, impractical objections to prenups, but TV writers seem to think they are constitutionally obligated to assign such a viewpoint to one party every time an engaged couple starts making preparations -- even in cases where the parties are DEAD and thus have no actual assets.  So I just put my eyes back and moved on (although I gave myself a moment at the end to protest the false equivalency between Hetty's choice and theirs).

Bela remains a mess in a way I don't enjoy - the tired stereotype of the smart, successful woman who's obsessively attracted to loser jerks - so I'm glad we only see her occasionally.  I wish they'd cast Jay's parents, especially his mom; they've pointed out several times how close she and Jay are.  The storyline about Eric lying to her didn't do much for me in terms of the two of them, but I enjoyed it for the reactions.

Same with the Isaac/Nigel storyline - beyond my fundamental dislike, there's the fact Nigel is already prone to annoying me so assigning him the "a prenup means you're planning to fail" nonsense makes it worse, but I loved all the little bits of commentary it generated.  This script was on point with smart dialogue in a way that finally matched what had been the norm the first two seasons; I guess it took a while to knock the rust off after the strike or something.

I like Nancy more than most posters it seems, but I agree she is best used sparingly, and her few seconds here constituted the best part of the episode; well played.

 

[shura]

5 hours ago, Johannah said:

The ghosts in this show seem to be constricted by current property lines not buildings or elevators, so all you would have to do is go to the property (outside of a fence, even) and hope Prince decides to take a walk where you are and since that guy was making it all up anyway, he could have just hung around for awhile then said, "oh, here he comes now..."

And if you bring along a sandwich, it would qualify as dinner with Prince :).  I think we’ve cracked how he did it.

[kathyk2]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

I roll my eyes so hard they risk getting stuck at naive, impractical objections to prenups, but TV writers seem to think they are constitutionally obligated to assign such a viewpoint to one party every time an engaged couple starts making preparations -- even in cases where the parties are DEAD and thus have no actual assets.  So I just put my eyes back and moved on (although I gave myself a moment at the end to protest the false equivalency between Hetty's choice and theirs).

Bela remains a mess in a way I don't enjoy - the tired stereotype of the smart, successful woman who's obsessively attracted to loser jerks - so I'm glad we only see her occasionally.  I wish they'd cast Jay's parents, especially his mom; they've pointed out several times how close she and Jay are.  The storyline about Eric lying to her didn't do much for me in terms of the two of them, but I enjoyed it for the reactions.

Same with the Isaac/Nigel storyline - beyond my fundamental dislike, there's the fact Nigel is already prone to annoying me so assigning him the "a prenup means you're planning to fail" nonsense makes it worse, but I loved all the little bits of commentary it generated.  This script was on point with smart dialogue in a way that finally matched what had been the norm the first two seasons; I guess it took a while to knock the rust off after the strike or something.

I like Nancy more than most posters it seems, but I agree she is best used sparingly, and her few seconds here constituted the best part of the episode; well played.

 

I've wanted to meet Jay's parents since the show began. I thought Bela was using Eric during the Christmas episode so I'm glad she really likes him. I know this an unpopular opinion but I don't like Isaac I think he's a small name big ego. He could have done anything with his life and he didn't accomplish very much. Hetty had no control over her life where Isaac did.

[Bastet]

55 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I thought Bela was using Eric during the Christmas episode so I'm glad she really likes him.

But she doesn't.  The day-to-day Eric is who she's been friends with, with no romantic interest, for however long they've known each other.

The Eric who agreed to subject himself to electric shock so she could have sex with a ghost using his body was hot to her when it almost killed him, but within a couple of weeks the newness of that danger wore off and she got bored, so he made up being able to see ghosts (since she thought it would have been cool had his near-death experience caused that like it did for Sam) and wanting to be there for him as he adjusted to that cool burden got her into him again.  Finding out that was a lie rightly turned her back off, but that the biker ghost in her building turned out to be a creation of Eric's imagination revved her up again -- she wants to be with Eric, if he's role playing as Jean-Claude the Bad Boy Biker.  Real Eric she likes, but as a friend, she doesn't want him as a boyfriend.  And that's fine.  But they both look increasingly pathetic the more this goes on.

I just watched this again, and Trevor's shit-eating grin when Eric "falls" down the stairs and hurts himself is fantastic. 

[iMonrey]

18 hours ago, Johannah said:

The ghosts in this show seem to be constricted by current property lines not buildings or elevators, so all you would have to do is go to the property (outside of a fence, even) and hope Prince decides to take a walk where you are and since that guy was making it all up anyway, he could have just hung around for awhile then said, "oh, here he comes now..."

We don't even know how much Bela knows about ghost rules. Eric could have taken her to a restaurant somewhere near Prince's house and claimed that Prince was there.

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

I just watched this again, and Trevor's shit-eating grin when Eric "falls" down the stairs and hurts himself is fantastic. 

I didn't notice that. This show is always better on re-watch somehow. The first time I watched this episode I was more or less just sort of "eh" about it because I was just following the story. But on the second watch I noticed a lot of little details I hadn't noticed the first time around and caught some lines that went by me the first time. With eight ghosts milling around in the background it's so easy to miss little nuances like the one you describe.

[mojito]

I was thinking about Isaac and Nigel's wedding vows:

"Till sucking off do us part"??

[Annber03]

52 minutes ago, mojito said:

I was thinking about Isaac and Nigel's wedding vows:

"Till sucking off do us part"??

We've been discussing this topic at another site I go to, and someone suggested something along the lines of, "Until we both get sucked off ." :p.

But yeah, however they phrase it, definitely a good opportunity for some fun with that phrase :D. 

[kav]

Does anyone think that as soon as they say "I do" they might both be sucked off?  

[PaulE]

4 hours ago, kav said:

Does anyone think that as soon as they say "I do" they might both be sucked off?

I don't think it's likely.  There'd be tremendous backlash from all the fans who've become invested in their developing relationship and would resent seeing that storyline end abruptly.  Plus I think there's a lot of material for future episodes that could be mined from their married life.  Unless one of them has to be written out because the actor is leaving, I doubt the writers would want to let go of this arc after all the work they've put into it so far.

I'm still not convinced that resolution of some sort of conflict necessarily results in being sucked off.  I don't think the ghosts themselves have ever said that, have they?  I've always had the impression that none of them really knows why it happens any more than they know why some people become ghosts while others don't.

[Annber03]

29 minutes ago, PaulE said:

I don't think it's likely.  There'd be tremendous backlash from all the fans who've become invested in their developing relationship and would resent seeing that storyline end abruptly.  Plus I think there's a lot of material for future episodes that could be mined from their married life.  Unless one of them has to be written out because the actor is leaving, I doubt the writers would want to let go of this arc after all the work they've put into it so far.

I'm still not convinced that resolution of some sort of conflict necessarily results in being sucked off.  I don't think the ghosts themselves have ever said that, have they?  I've always had the impression that none of them really knows why it happens any more than they know why some people become ghosts while others don't.

This. Plus, their relationship, and Isaac becoming more comfortable with his sexuality, and so on, isn't the only thing Isaac has wanted to get out of his afterlife. He wants recognitiion, he just had a book published about him. He wants a musical :D! He's yet to properly see any of those wishes through, if he ever will. So if unfinished business is a main reason theyre here (and while I definitely think it is a reason they're still here, I also don't think it's the only reason they're still here), Isaac has a long way to go before he reaches that point. 

As does Nigel, for that matter. Who knows what other kinds of unfinished business he might still have lurking about that he's yet to resolve? Just because these ghosts have found some happiness and taken some big steps thus far in their afterlives, that doesn't automatically mean their story is done, or close to being done. 

[kav]

What do we know about Nigel's life other than he was a British officer?  Do we know anything about his family? 

[Annber03]

No, we don't. I hope we do get a chance to learn a little more backstory about him at some point, too, especially since he's about to marry Isaac and is becoming a more permanent fixture in the house and whatnot. I'd like to learn a bit about what his life was like before he came to America. 

I also keep feeling like he and Thor could bond over swapping stories about traveling the world by boat :D. 

[Bastet]

Based on human nature, which this show seems to follow, many people die with some sort of unfinished business.

What the show has established in its version of what happens after death is most people don't become ghosts upon death, those who do are constrained by the property boundary of where they die, and some of those stuck in the in-between later get "sucked off" which is a bittersweet and ill-defined goal -- to the ghosts' dismay based on their limited understanding after all this time, it does not always follow the resolution of what they think is their big issue.

So the show has purposely left it wide open who among the minority of ghosts is kept and who's shuffled off immediately or later, and will probably not make any big choices so long as the ratings and subsequent budget remain steady.  This works as an existing ensemble, and producers won't tinker with that lightly.

[shapeshifter]

Well stated, @Bastet!  
     So with these points👆in mind, 
…revisiting this query👇

11 hours ago, kav said:

Does anyone think that as soon as they say "I do" they might both be sucked off?  

(regarding Nigel and Isaac getting “sucked off” at the moment of their nuptials)
whilst it does seem a fitting end in a fairytale sort of way, for a still immensely popular series, it would make no sense (nor cents💸).

But also, based upon my own, relatively limited experience with marriage, as well as my observations of others’ marriages, and certainly considering what we’ve seen of Isaac and Nigel’s relationship, getting married would not really be an entirely blissful moment.  

So do not fear, Isaac and Nigel fans, they’re not going anywhere.
But it could be cool if, immediately after their “I dos,” we saw them quickly jet up through the ceiling, and then, after a very pregnant pause, swoop down again, landing gracefully.

[Annber03]

I can also see there being a fun irony in the idea that what the ghosts THINK they need to resolve in order to move on isn't what they actually need to resolve to move on :p. 

But yeah, I agree, the only way any of these ghosts would actually move on for good would be either possibly in the series finale (which will hopefully be a long time from now), or if an actor chose to leave for good for one reason or another. 

Edited March 7 by Annber03

[PaulE]

8 hours ago, kav said:

What do we know about Nigel's life other than he was a British officer?  Do we know anything about his family? 

 

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

No, we don't. I hope we do get a chance to learn a little more backstory about him at some point, too, especially since he's about to marry Isaac and is becoming a more permanent fixture in the house and whatnot. I'd like to learn a bit about what his life was like before he came to America. 

I also keep feeling like he and Thor could bond over swapping stories about traveling the world by boat :D. 

I'm with you on this.  I know some of us find Nigel annoying with his passive-aggressive tendencies, but I've come to like him for his own sake, not simply because of his relationship with Isaac (and if we're talking about annoying, Isaac can be front and center at times).  He's a bit of a snob but can be open-minded and willing to change, as with his acceptance of Thor, and I see a certain sweetness under all that stuffy formality (I never really felt it was in character for him to blackmail Hetty and Trevor, though it was a good storyline). Based on his speech and demeanor, I've sort of created a backstory for him in my mind and I think a lot of others have, too, but it would be great to have the writers give us something concrete, especially since he's become a more important figure.

He's already bonded with Thor over ants, so, yes, I could see them getting even closer sharing their maritime experiences.

[PaulE]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Based on human nature, which this show seems to follow, many people die with some sort of unfinished business.

 

Exactly--and most of us have more than one unresolved issue, so in that case, which one determines whether or not you get sucked off?  And in Nigel's case, while his relationship with Isaac has been resolved in the sense that they've declared their love for one another and are about to get married, we know he has a self-image problem.  Remember when he referred to himself as a skinny Brit with webbed feet?  He's got some insecurities going on there which haven't been resolved, and I'm sure that's true for the others as well.

[Lugal]

11 hours ago, PaulE said:

I'm still not convinced that resolution of some sort of conflict necessarily results in being sucked off.  I don't think the ghosts themselves have ever said that, have they?  I've always had the impression that none of them really knows why it happens any more than they know why some people become ghosts while others don't.

I think the ghosts themselves have speculated that could be the reason, but they'll admit they don't know.  They seem to have other ideas, like when Hettie acknowledged that the cholera ghosts "are people" and was immediately disappointed that it didn't her get sucked off:  "That was gross!"

[possibilities]

It could be more about how people die than what their unfinished business is. Maybe violent deaths cause people to get stuck more than other kinds. Or people get trapped if the weather is bad. It could have nothing to do with unfinished issues, especially when you consider that many, probably most, folks have some.

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

It could be more about how people die than what their unfinished business is. Maybe violent deaths cause people to get stuck more than other kinds. Or people get trapped if the weather is bad. It could have nothing to do with unfinished issues, especially when you consider that many, probably most, folks have some.

On the topic of violent deaths, there's also the fact that these ghosts' actions all played some role in their untimely demise. Isaac died of dysentery because he didn't bother to follow basic sanitary measures. Alberta drank from a random bottle that was left at her door. Thor wore a metal helmet on a day when there was lightning in the area. Pete handed out the bows and arrows at the archery lesson before starting his safety lecture. 

And so on. So maybe that factors into their current state as well to some degree, the idea that they've been having to learn to take responsibility for their own actions in that regard. 

8 hours ago, PaulE said:

 

I'm with you on this.  I know some of us find Nigel annoying with his passive-aggressive tendencies, but I've come to like him for his own sake, not simply because of his relationship with Isaac (and if we're talking about annoying, Isaac can be front and center at times).  He's a bit of a snob but can be open-minded and willing to change, as with his acceptance of Thor, and I see a certain sweetness under all that stuffy formality (I never really felt it was in character for him to blackmail Hetty and Trevor, though it was a good storyline). Based on his speech and demeanor, I've sort of created a backstory for him in my mind and I think a lot of others have, too, but it would be great to have the writers give us something concrete, especially since he's become a more important figure.

He's already bonded with Thor over ants, so, yes, I could see them getting even closer sharing their maritime experiences.

I like Nigel, too :). I kind of like that he's a bit hotheaded and temperamental, and I like the ups and downs that have come with his attempts to settle into the house and get to know Isaac's friends. I have my own theories about why he had that whole back and forth with Hetty and Trevor, too (and why Hetty in paritcular also acted as she did, aside from the obvious reasons) but that's a whole other topic :D. I do think some of his behavior ties into the insecurities another poster mentioned upthread. 

But yeah. He's a fun balance to Isaac's personality in a lot of ways, and they've definitely had some lovely moments together, both before and after they became a couple. So I look forward to continuing to see how he settles into the house and bonds with the others as time goes on :). 

And ha, yes, like stated elsewhere, all these characters have their moments where they can be annoying or petty or snobby or so on - they're all iimperfect in hteir own various ways, so in that respect, Nigel definitely fits right in :p. 

[Rockstar99435]

On 2/29/2024 at 6:43 PM, Annber03 said:

I also really liked the conversation between Hetty and Sasappis this episode, with him helping her to see how different her life could've been had she followed her heart. Hell, in her case, not only would her life have been different, but so would that of everyone else who came after her, probably. That flashback to her past, her conversation with her dad..poor Hetty :(. Her outfit in that scene was something, too :D. 

I love Sass but if I'm being honest, I think PastHetty made the right choice. Being poor now sucks, but being poor in the 1800s? So much worse. Especially as a woman. We at least have social programs and legal protections. Back then, the only protections Hetty had, both legal and social, came from her financial privilege. She'd basically be trading becoming the property of a rich man for becoming the property of a poor man. She has no transferable skills that she could use to make money to help her husband. Even the careers open to women at the time, like becoming a Governess, would be closed to her because there's no way a family posh enough to want a Governess would allow their young, impressionable daughters to be taught by the kind of girl who poses for ankle portraits and runs away with a painter. And most likely, the painter would lose all of his patrons because rich families wouldn't want him around their daughters/wives/sisters after the scandal either.

Elias was a monster and it sucks for Hetty that she had to marry him, but better that than starving in a ditch while you wait for the syphilis to kill you. *shrug*

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But yeah, I agree, the only way any of these ghosts would actually move on for good would be either possibly in the series finale (which will hopefully be a long time from now)

So, wait, we're the reason they are stuck here? Awe, now I feel bad, but not bad enough to let go so they can be sucked off. Sorry ghosts, you must stay here for my amusement. Muahhahahaa

[Skooma]

On 3/7/2024 at 1:34 AM, Annber03 said:

No, we don't. I hope we do get a chance to learn a little more backstory about him at some point, too, especially since he's about to marry Isaac and is becoming a more permanent fixture in the house and whatnot. I'd like to learn a bit about what his life was like before he came to America.

Hey maybe he is distantly related to one of the British Ghosts from the original series.  Maybe another distant but modern relative of both of them and played by the British actor from the original series comes to Woodstone Manor trying to write a history of his long dead relatives and talks about poor dear Humphrey who lost his head etc.

18 hours ago, PaulE said:

I know some of us find Nigel annoying with his passive-aggressive tendencies, but I've come to like him for his own sake

I've liked him from the very beginning.  Probably my favorite Ghost though I love them all.

Edited March 8 by Skooma

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, Skooma said:

Hey maybe he is distantly related to one of the British Ghosts from the original series.  Maybe another distant but modern relative of both of them and played by the British actor from the original series comes to Woodstone Manor trying to write a history of his deal relatives and talks about poor dear Humphrey who lost his head etc.

...oh, I LIKE this idea :D. That'd be really cool, and a lovely little nod to the original series. 

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I've liked him from the very beginning.  Probably my favorite Ghost though I love them all.

Yeah, seriously, I love all these characters. I can't think of a single one I don't like. 

[PaulE]

5 hours ago, Annber03 said:

have my own theories about why he had that whole back and forth with Hetty and Trevor, too (and why Hetty in paritcular also acted as she did, aside from the obvious reasons) but that's a whole other topic :D. I do think some of his behavior ties into the insecurities another poster mentioned upthread. 

Oh, absolutely.  He was still not entirely on firm ground in his relationship with Isaac, and also was in that stage of love when you want to spend every minute alone with your beloved.  So he saw Hetty as a threat (Trevor was merely collateral damage).  I think that's the only reason he tried to insinuate himself into their ponder sessions.  She, meanwhile, feared that Isaac's romantic feelings for Nigel would weaken his friendship with her (which admittedly often does happen in real life).  But neither was actually a threat to the other; after all, if Hetty and Isaac had their weekly pondering, Nigel and Isaac had their daily morning walks.  Nigel should have had the sense to realize this, but he was probably too in love and too insecure to think clearly.  At the end of the day, they both love Isaac, only in different ways.  That's why I've always said they have more in common than they realize and I'd like to see them as allies.

[Annber03]

54 minutes ago, PaulE said:

Oh, absolutely.  He was still not entirely on firm ground in his relationship with Isaac, and also was in that stage of love when you want to spend every minute alone with your beloved.  So he saw Hetty as a threat (Trevor was merely collateral damage).  I think that's the only reason he tried to insinuate himself into their ponder sessions.  She, meanwhile, feared that Isaac's romantic feelings for Nigel would weaken his friendship with her (which admittedly often does happen in real life).  But neither was actually a threat to the other; after all, if Hetty and Isaac had their weekly pondering, Nigel and Isaac had their daily morning walks.  Nigel should have had the sense to realize this, but he was probably too in love and too insecure to think clearly.  

Yes. Exactly. And Nigel's little thing with Hetty started right after that whole Jenkins/"respite" business - I thinke NIgel was a little thrown by how Isaac reacted to that (especially once he heard him shouting back and forth with George :p), and so he was heavily overcompensating - he wanted to show his commitment to Isaac and just went about it in a super awkward way :p. 

And yes, Hetty was being territorial 'cause this new guy just moves into her home and Isaac doesn't even consult her, the lady of the house, about it first, and it's one of those things where you see your friend in a new relationship and you're happy for them but you also miss them and are a little jealous as a result. Especially given she was having her whole secret thing with Trevor at that time - if she were going to open up about it to anyone, it'd be Isaac, but he was spending all his time with Nigel, so she didn't really know who else to turn to. 

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At the end of the day, they both love Isaac, only in different ways.  That's why I've always said they have more in common than they realize and I'd like to see them as allies.

Yes. Exactly. This. All of this :D. I feel the exact same way. 

[Bastet]

15 hours ago, PaulE said:

I think that's the only reason he tried to insinuate himself into their ponder sessions.

Which is when I started to declare him dead to me, until remembering he is, in fact, dead, period.  Isaac was just as tacky for not putting the kibosh on it when Nigel suggested horning in (dudes, you have all the other hours in a day for frakkin' eternity), but I know Isaac much better so I suffer his obnoxious moments far more gladly.  They balance Nigel out with things like finding common ground with Thor.

[Annber03]

I could understand Isaac not having a problem with Nigel joining him and Hetty, partly because his relationship with Nigel has become more serious and so he wants to do his part to make him happy/spend time with him, and partly because, as far as he knew, this was just Nigel's way of getting to know another one of his friends better, the way he started to befriend Thor and Pete due to their shared love of ants. Especially given there was that whole thing in the first episode of season 2 where Isaac told Nigel that if they were going to be together, he had to accept his friends. This seemed like a natural extention of that, as far as Isaac was concerned. 

And I think he was also just so excited about Nigel having moved into the mansion and the idea of them getting to do more stuff together in general as a result :D. 

[Bastet]

17 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I could understand Isaac not having a problem with Nigel joining him and Hetty,

Oh, I understand why he didn't pick up on Hetty's clear cue if nothing else, I just can't stand when people do stuff like that (and am very glad I mostly only see it on TV, not in real life).  Not everything needs to become a trio when one half of a friend pair also becomes half of a couple.  There are plenty of things the ghosts do as a group, and things they each do with Ghost A sometimes, Ghost B other times, etc.  This was a Hetty and Isaac one-on-one tradition, and she made it as plain as could be without coming out and saying "No, this is our thing, go away" that she did not appreciate Nigel suggesting he join them (which he shouldn't have done in the first place, he should have waited to see if they invited him and been fine when they didn't), yet Isaac put his blinders on.

Being predisposed to Nigel irritating me more than Isaac does when they're equally annoying (since I "know" Isaac better), although I like their relationship and am often amused by Nigel, him saying things like "our money" and the anti-prenup gobbledygook is going to ruffle my feathers as much as it does Hetty's.  And then the next time around he'll do something cute or amusing.  It balances out in the end.

[PaulE]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

Isaac was just as tacky for not putting the kibosh on it when Nigel suggested horning in

 

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And I think he was also just so excited about Nigel having moved into the mansion and the idea of them getting to do more stuff together in general as a result :D. 

And let's remember, Isaac is (a) self-absorbed, and therefore (b) clueless.  He's thrilled to have both his boyfriend and his best friend living under the same room with him so life is perfect--and if it's perfect for him, it's just gotta be perfect for everyone else, too, right?  (Remember how he wanted everyone to celebrate his engagement while they were still grieving and in shock over Flower's disappearance.)  He certainly should have sensed the tension and tried to defuse it, but it just went right over his head.  I also wonder if maybe, even subliminally,  Isaac wasn't just a little bit titillated by two people fighting over him--after all, I don't think he was very popular when he was alive, so this would be a new experience for him, and I can understand why he'd like it.  The kicker for me is that Hetty's and Nigel's faux-apologies were actually the truth!  If they'd each accepted at face value what the other said everything would've been fine.  Oh, well, we're talking love, here, so I guess we have to make some allowances.  There's  that old saying by Pascal: "The heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing of."  That's true in spades for this bunch.