S02.E05: Close Enough to Touch

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Gladys didn't need all of those tools, though. Bertha was a middle class woman with ambitions to break into a society that didn't want her. Gladys was raised in luxury. Bertha probably does think she's giving Gladys the tools she needs for this world--she's always explicitly telling her exactly why she's doing what she's doing and why it's important to do it. But Gladys doesn't have the same obsession with being at the top of society because she's never been outside it.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Perhaps not an obsession, but surviving skills in the society. She is like an innocent lamb which can easily been eaten by wolves like Turner.

Also, if Bertha succeeds to marry her to the duke, how can she endure a life among aristocratic Brits who look at her down despite her fortune?

That's what I think about all the rich kids. I said something similar in a post on another episode. They don't seem to care much about old vs new, and I think that's because they didn't have to work for it. This wealthy high-society world is all they know. They never felt what it was like to be at the bottom of the economic ladder, and just as important is they haven't felt what it was like to have their status threatened. They've never had to face the possibility of losing it all.

Marian's father blew the family assets. Agnes faced the real threat of being penniless so she married into a wealthy family.

Bertha and Russell built their wealth and they don't want to go back.

For the kids, having butlers, maids and servants is normal life. For their parents, being at the top of society equals survival.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by AntFTW

[RachelKM]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:04 AM, Pestilentia said:

My question wasn't how such a situation can passively develop. It was more wondering why Bertha hadn't given her own daughter the same tools she herself found it necessary to utilize on a daily basis.

I don't think it's so much the Bertha thinks Gladys won't  need those skills or doesn't want them for her so much as Bertha is self-involved enough not to have considered the reality of her daughter ever having to do anything without her. Bertha is so focused on the goal, achieving the correct place in society for her and her family, including the "right marriage" for Gladys and her future, that she's completely lost sight of what said family is supposed to do with their actual lives when Bertha succeeds on their behalf.

Interestingly, I think she actually has taught her daughter.  I know that this comment theme started with the premise that Gladys is a mouse; but I don't necessarily agree. 

She is definitely sheltered to the point of ignorance of people at large, or at least she definitely was in S1, and she's very much passive when her mother is actively involved.  But there have been flashes here and there of Gladys showing some spark and a more forceful personality. My favorite is that every once in a while, when speaking to her peers, she adopts her mother's tone and inflection. Taissa Farmiga really nails it. It's subtle and it's not a Carrie C. impression. But it is recognizable.  She did it while talking to Marian at the tennis tournament a few episodes ago.  My friend and I both laughed about it.

ETA: That said, Larry is just a very sweet idiot. He's basically a golden retriever.  

Edited December 5, 2023 by RachelKM

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, RachelKM said:

ETA: That said, Larry is just a very sweet idiot. He's basically a golden retriever.  

Perfect for Marion. She needs somebody who isn't going to be making schemes for himself without caring about her, schemes that are obvious to everyone but her.

Edited December 5, 2023 by sistermagpie

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Perfect for Marion. She needs somebody who isn't going to be making schemes for himself without caring about her, schemes that are obvious to everyone but her.

Oh, I agree. As I've said before, I'm nominally team Larian.  They work.  But the only sharp thing about that boy is his jawline.

[JenE4]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Perfect for Marion. She needs somebody who isn't going to be making schemes for himself without caring about her, schemes that are obvious to everyone but her.

Maybe it depends on what you mean by “scheme.” But IMO, this show is teaching us that at least one person in an interpersonal dynamic (whether a marriage, parent-child relationship, sister relationship, etc) needs to know how to scheme just to get by in society. I mean the amount of scheming just to keep or advance your position is exhausting. Though neither Marion nor Larry really care much about all that. I can see them just bumbling through life happy to be middle class and certainly not fighting over opera houses and the like. The problem is that her scheming aunt and his scheming mother really won’t let them choose not to scheme. I mean, maybe they can move out of state or something to get away from the day-to-day social jockeying and obligations, but I imagine they’d receive a lot of angry and distraught letters from Bertha and Aunt Agnes about why they must do XYZ or they will be ruined, etc. Maybe that’s the only way to avoid the social scheming—you need to drop out of the social register entirely. Of course, I imagine doing so puts a mark on their family name. So, once again, Bertha and Aunt Agnes just would not let them out from under their thumbs. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, JenE4 said:

Maybe it depends on what you mean by “scheme.”

Good point! In my case I was just thinking of Mr. Rakes who was obviously going to dump her for somebody better connected, yet Marion kept taking risks with him because even though she didn't seem to be in love with him, she gave in to all of his arguments. And then there was Dashiell who was planning on marrying her while Marion was blissfully unaware his mind was in that neighborhood.

Larry doesn't seem like he's going to spring anything on her like that.

That said, your point is also true. Neither Marion or Larry seem like they're prepared to maneuver in society. They both just want to do what they want to do--and they would probably both support each other in their passions.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

Maybe that’s the only way to avoid the social scheming—you need to drop out of the social register entirely. Of course, I imagine doing so puts a mark on their family name. So, once again, Bertha and Aunt Agnes just would not let them out from under their thumbs. 

Not necessarily.  Not everyone who is among either the old money or new money is maneuvering.  Many people within both groups are comfortably living in the station they were either born to or achieved through financial status and are not actively seeking anything more.  

Aurora Fane seems to be fine just being among and generally following the social dictates of the leaders of her class.  And not every nouveau riche is desperate to break through and/or they are willing to leave the more ambitious of their cohorts, Bertha for example, to man the battering ram. 

If Larry and Marian merely occasionally showed up at the events they were expected and didn't paint too far outside the lines in their activities, they could remain wherever they landed immediately after the wedding. Assuming Marian chose to continue teaching, she might be viewed as eccentric.  But with Larry's family wealth, it would clearly be a choice and not a need to be employed.  

Bertha and Agnes may continue to despair of them and their lack of social ambition and may [read: likely would] continue cluck at them. But a lack social ambition and/or maneuvering would not be a black mark against either them or their families. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by RachelKM
clarity

[Sarah 103]

 

37 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

If Larry and Marian merely occasionally showed up at the events they were expected and didn't paint too far outside the lines in their activities, they could remain wherever they landed immediately after the wedding. Assuming Marian chose to continue teaching, she might be viewed as eccentric.  But with Larry's family wealth, it would clearly be a choice and not a need to be employed.  

If she's teaching the poor, it could be considered "charity" and helping the less fortunate. It might be seen as eccentric and there may be questions as to why Larry can't "control" his wife, but I would don't see it causing a scandal that would have them ostracized. For as long as it lasts, they have Agnes and George protecting them socially and financially. If Gladys marries well and learns to play the game well, she might be able to help. I could see a future where people say, "We must invite Gladys and it wouldn't be right to exclude her bother and his wife."

George cares about having money, but I don't think he cares about social status. As long as he money to afford servants waiting on him, what social engagements they are invited to or excluded from probably would not bother him or Marian. 

It seems like Larry and Marian may be the end game, but I don't see how you get there. I believe them as a friends, but there is nothing romantic there yet. 

[blackwing]

Last season as the episodes progressed, it became more and more apparent that Bertha Russell was "winning" the class war.  Yet we still had scenes of her getting completely embarrassed, like when she had to leave through the kitchen and was spitting out chicken feathers.

This season, she seems to already have been completely accepted.  Speaking as someone who doesn't like Bertha, I am finding this season lacking in that drama.  The whole series was premised as New Money trying to make inroads into Old Money.  It seems like she has already done that.  She is a leading backer of the Metropolitan Opera, she is hosting the Duke, etc.  So far through this episode, she is winning the mini-war against Caroline Astor.  She is winning the mini-war against Turner.  She is controlling Larry's life and making the widow dump him.  She is controlling Gladys' life and making her wear what colours she herself wants Gladys to wear.  No doubt she is going to force Gladys into marriage with the Duke.  She gets whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and I for one am finding it a bit boring.  I want to see her fail sometimes, it's just being depicted as all being too easy for her this season.

 

On 11/27/2023 at 5:30 PM, cardigirl said:

I'm enjoying this season a bit more that last season, but am I the only person who was rooting for Turner's scheme to work? I would love to see Bertha taken down a peg or two.  *evil laugh*

On 11/27/2023 at 7:12 PM, DiabLOL said:

I am totally Team Turner and also Team Oscar. I have no problem with them doing what they’ve been doing to get the lives of their dreams in a ridiculous society. George is an actual villain and Bertha supports that. Of course I understand why so many viewers like watching their personal stories though but I find their burning love a bit improbable given how long they’ve been together. 

Me.  I want Turner to have a win or two.  I wanted to see some drama at the dinner and I wanted to see Bertha not have it all so easy.  I too view George as the villain, I get that he's the classic robber baron but I think things are all coming up roses for both George and Bertha this season and that doesn't seem right.  I particularly hate the way Bertha is using her children for her own social advancement.  George at least showed some faith in Larry and is supporting him by letting him get more involved in his business affairs.   

But Bertha is a witch for forcing Mrs. Blane to dump Larry.  She was only concerned about what Larry being with a widow her age would do to her standing in society.  I was hoping Larry would show up at Newport last minute with Mrs. Blane and force Bertha and the servants to make room for them.

 

On 11/26/2023 at 10:00 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm not following this story at all. Who are Miss Beaton's parents, what is their business, what does she have to do with it, why does she have to go see this guy in his office, why does Oscar have to come with her, what is her involvement in the family business whatever it is . . . I don't get it.

On 11/27/2023 at 9:25 AM, AntFTW said:

The only thing that just doesn't make sense about this theory of Maud Beaton being in on the scam to me, if there is a scam, is that she didn't ask Oscar for help. She didn't ask him to come down to the office. She didn't ask Oscar for money.

Oscar is throwing himself into it. Nobody asked Oscar for his money, or even implied that they needed his money.

I don't know if the Maude Beaton thing is a scam or not (I'm thinking yes, because... Fellowes).  Can someone remind me who she is and where she came from?  For some reason I was thinking she was a widow and needed help with her financial affairs.  But she's just a young single woman with parents and money?  How did she get introduced to Oscar?  I know Oscar is looking for a wealthy woman to marry because it's expected of him since he is the last male van Rhijn and needs an heir.  He's pushing 40, I find it hard to believe that none of Agnes, Ada, or Marian even remotely suspect that he is gay.  Especially if the servants all mostly seem to know it.

 

I have never been a fan of Cynthia Nixon (I absolutely loathed Miranda Hobbs and I hated her character of Petronilla from the "World Without End" miniseries), but I am absolutely loving her here.  I know this series has gotten next to zero Emmy attention, which is surprising, considering it's Fellowes.  But if there was justice, she would be a strong contender for Best Supporting Actress with this episode.  She was perfect here.

 

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I particularly hate the way Bertha is using her children for her own social advancement.  George at least showed some faith in Larry and is supporting him by letting him get more involved in his business affairs.   

But Bertha is a witch for forcing Mrs. Blane to dump Larry.  She was only concerned about what Larry being with a widow her age would do to her standing in society.  I was hoping Larry would show up at Newport last minute with Mrs. Blane and force Bertha and the servants to make room for them.

I don't think that Bertha uses her children only for her own social advancement. From her POW she acts for their best interests. Only, she defines them - and that was nothing unusual in that time.

Thus, her daughter's best interest is to have the position and wealth that she had wanted to herself during her whole life. As she said of Gladys: "I am going to give her the world." The problem isn't only that Gladys didn't want it but that she don't have qualities for a successful duchess.

As for Larry, Bertha was quite right in all what she said to Larry's mistress who realized it and ended the relationship.     

[blackwing]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Bertha uses her children only for her own social advancement. From her POW she acts for their best interests. Only, she defines them - and that was nothing unusual in that time.

Thus, her daughter's best interest is to have the position and wealth that she had wanted to herself during her whole life. As she said of Gladys: "I am going to give her the world." The problem isn't only that Gladys didn't want it but that she don't have qualities for a successful duchess.

As for Larry, Bertha was quite right in all what she said to Larry's mistress who realized it and ended the relationship.     

Bertha is a very selfish person who thinks only of herself.  She is foremost concerned with what the Old Money people like Mrs. Astor think of her.  Everything that her family does, she thinks first of how their actions will affect other people's views of her.

As a stern mother of that time period, she may think that she is acting in her children's best interests, but she doesn't even bother to care about their opinions.  Gladys has expressed a wish for more freedom and control over her own life.  Bertha doesn't care.  Larry is on the verge of rebelling.  Bertha doesn't care.  Bertha thinks she knows best, but really, what makes Bertha such an expert in how her children lead their lives?  She has no education.  She is fairly new to New York society.

I think it seems clear that Bertha wants the Duke to marry Gladys, not because she thinks Gladys will be happy, but because it will advance her own social standing if her daughter is a Duchess.  Gladys doesn't seem particularly interested at all.  She is well aware of what her mother is doing and remarked upon it to the Duke himself.

I don't agree that Bertha was right to encourage the widow to dump Larry.  It's true that she is older than Larry and would never be able to give him a child.  But Larry obviously didn't care.  He didn't care that Mrs. Blane was older than him.  The issue here is that Bertha didn't even bother to ask Larry what he wants.  Larry just graduated from Harvard so he's about 22 years old.  Why not let him have the freedom to live his life and discover himself for a few years?  

The discussion that Bertha had with Mrs. Blane about her not being able to provide him with a child should have been had with Larry himself.  Bertha could have stressed the importance of Larry building his career and having his own son to pass on the family business to.  George could have said the same about how one day he hoped Larry would have a son of his own to bring up in the business.  Larry is a Harvard graduate, he isn't stupid, he would have realised all this.  Instead, we have yet another example of Bertha being an incorrigible and controlling mother.

[MMEButterfly]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:40 PM, rollacoaster said:

As a Black woman who grew up in and still lives in the south...that scene didn't feel off or contrived. It felt very true. That boorish behavior and the placating reactions to it felt pretty spot on. 

Sure, there was racism in New York, and Peggy has definitely experienced it. Black people in the south lived with a different kind, the violent, deadly kind that could erupt at any moment, for the slightest reason or no reason at all. 

Someone mentioned that Peggy is this series Edith, and I agree. This feels like, as the main Black character, she is burdened with carrying all the harshest realities of life and I don't like it. 

I hope not. I want Peggy to have some brilliant successes. 

[HappyHanna]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

The discussion that Bertha had with Mrs. Blane about her not being able to provide him with a child should have been had with Larry himself.  Bertha could have stressed the importance of Larry building his career and having his own son to pass on the family business to. 

I would agree,  except Larry is a child.  He acts like a child,  he wasn't interested in taking on his father's business,  there's no indication he has reached the object permanence stage of human development. He's thinking with his d##k, so I don't see that asking him to consider the future would have any effect.  Mrs. Blane, however,  is a grown woman who knows what society demands. 

This goes into why I can't ship Larry and Marian. He is not mature enough for her, and she as a early 20s (I assume) gentile poor woman who needs to marry someone who can provide for her.  She may (or JF may) pretend she's going to be independent and provide for herself,  but there's no real way she could do that.  She's living on the largesse of her aunt,  at some time that gravy train will end,  and teaching water colors (or reading to poor kids? Does anyone understand this school? Thursdays are rich kids,  Fridays are poor?) Is not going to keep her in satin gowns. She doesn't have time for Larry to grown up.  Though I'm sure they are end game,  anyway. 

[Baltimore Betty]

14 hours ago, HappyHanna said:

He is not mature enough for her,

I thought that since day one, Marian would be so frustrated with him if they were to be together, she has had a lot of real world experiences such as settling what is left of her father's estate, having to find a niche for herself in a completely different world than she was used to and even wanting to help others less fortunate than she is now. 

I do no see Larry as anyone Marian could lean on and someone who could be head of household although I could see Marian in charge of her own destiny, surviving nicely on her own as a single woman, Larry would not flourish if he were alone and no safety net to fall back on.

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, HappyHanna said:

I would agree,  except Larry is a child.  He acts like a child,  he wasn't interested in taking on his father's business,  there's no indication he has reached the object permanence stage of human development. He's thinking with his d##k, so I don't see that asking him to consider the future would have any effect.  Mrs. Blane, however,  is a grown woman who knows what society demands. 

I agree.

Mrs Blaine knows not only how society would reacht to their age difference (they would be ridiculed at least behind their back), but she can also imagine how their relationship would be after 20-30 years. Bertha cleverly reminded her how she waited for her old husband's death. 

I have understood that as a widow she is now free to decide about her life and fortune. If she remarries, is it again her husband who will decide where she lives, whether she can travel, how much money she can spend etc?  

[norcalgal]

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I thought that since day one, Marian would be so frustrated with him if they were to be together, she has had a lot of real world experiences such as settling what is left of her father's estate, having to find a niche for herself in a completely different world than she was used to and even wanting to help others less fortunate than she is now. 

I do no see Larry as anyone Marian could lean on and someone who could be head of household although I could see Marian in charge of her own destiny, surviving nicely on her own as a single woman, Larry would not flourish if he were alone and no safety net to fall back on.

Reading this post, the very first thing that popped in my mind was the scene from Casablanca where the wife talks about how difficult life is in Hungary, so um “negotiates” getting exit visas and her husband can’t find out because he doesn’t know how The Real World works. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I do no see Larry as anyone Marian could lean on and someone who could be head of household although I could see Marian in charge of her own destiny, surviving nicely on her own as a single woman, Larry would not flourish if he were alone and no safety net to fall back on.

TBF, Larry having to grow up and mature would be an obvious storyline for him if they wanted them to be endgame, and him losing a childish love and trying out being a wastrel drunkard would be some obvious, if cliche, first steps.

[Sarah 103]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:31 PM, HappyHanna said:

She's living on the largesse of her aunt,  at some time that gravy train will end,  and teaching water colors (or reading to poor kids? Does anyone understand this school? Thursdays are rich kids,  Fridays are poor?) Is not going to keep her in satin gowns.

She is teaching at two different schools. The water colors and art are to rich girls at a private school during the day. At night, in a completely different location, she is teaching adult immigrants at a settlement house (I think that's the right term for it) how to read and do basic math.

[MJ Frog]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:40 PM, rollacoaster said:

As a Black woman who grew up in and still lives in the south...that scene didn't feel off or contrived. It felt very true. That boorish behavior and the placating reactions to it felt pretty spot on. 

Sure, there was racism in New York, and Peggy has definitely experienced it. Black people in the south lived with a different kind, the violent, deadly kind that could erupt at any moment, for the slightest reason or no reason at all. 

This. It was far worse than anything they are showing us here. This show takes place only a few years after Grant’s presidency, during which he was compelled to send federal troops into the South several times to quell widespread violence and intimidation, the details of which truly are the stuff of nightmares. So I think it was fine to spend an episode having the city gal getting a taste of just how bad things could get down south.

[peeayebee]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:44 AM, Pop Tart said:

She delivers her lines with a kind of flat affect, but also a bit twee, that it's coming across as really forced. The actress was so good as the young Kirsten in Station Eleven, but there the flat affect really worked as her character had been severely traumatized and was trying to survive an apocalyptic pandemic. 

I just started watching Station Eleven, and I couldn't remember where I'd seen that actress before, so I went to IMDB and... OH! Right! I agree -- She is really good there. On The Gilded Age I think the problem is the writing and/or direction.