S02.E09: Subspace Rhapsody

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, starri said:

Spock was using so much computer power investigating the fold, there wasn't enough left over to automatically route messages to their intended recipients.

Kind of standard Trek plot device where technology always works except when the plot demands that it doesn't.

I don't think there's a good Watsonian reason why using "all" the computing power required Uhura manually routing calls when (it seems to me anyway) the computing power required to route calls is relatively puny. It seems like it would be simple to rig up a separate computer to accomplish the routing, or to simply say "Sorry Spock, you don't get that extra 10 TB (or whatever the measure is) of computing power...your calculations will take an extra hour instead."

The Doylist reasoning is probably something akin to what was said: to show Uhura as an awesome connector of people.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Did Kirk actually outthink Khan or did he just hit him with a wrench? 

I would say that TOS Spock and Data were pretty clearly "better" than the rest of the crew both in physical ability and mental gymnastics, and that Data of course was obviously patterned after Spock. Trek since then has spread the super abilities around much more. In fact I'm trying to remember a Spocks-brain-saves-the-day episode in SNW and struggling to recall one though there may have been. Surely though there has been more Spock as unstable teenager than Spock super genius. 

In both Space Seed and Wrath, Kirk outthought Khan a few times. Well, Kirk and Spock together, at any rate.

In Space Seed, Kirk probed Khan's identity as to whether he was the infamous Khan Noonien-Singh by having Spock debate him over dinner. Khan realized that was what Kirk was doing and called him out on it. Then Kirk took over and got Khan to confirm he was in fact KNS when he yelled "We offered the world order!" Even though Khan had taken over the Enterprise, Kirk managed to retake it with a little smarts, a lot of luck and a timely reversal from McGivers.

In TWOK, Khan thought that he left Kirk marooned in a dead world, but Kirk essentially had arranged to be rescued by Enterprise. He and Spock fooled Khan into thinking that Enterprise was way more crippled than it was. And Spock deduced that Khan's idea of space combat was limited by two-dimensional thinking, which allowed Kirk to devise a strategy to blow the crap out of him.

I will give you that SNW Spock has not performed anything that has been presented as an incredible feat of calculation or intellect, as he frequently did in TOS. I think part of that is the dynamics of this show vs. that (i.e. pretty much every TOS episode had Kirk/Spock/McCoy at the center whereas Spock has been less of a factor in most episodes and pretty much a non-entity in some.) and part of it is this show envisions computers as far more sophisticated than TOS does and implicitly or explicitly has computers doing more of all the crew's work, not just Spock's.

[Affogato]

29 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Did Kirk actually outthink Khan or did he just hit him with a wrench? 

I would say that TOS Spock and Data were pretty clearly "better" than the rest of the crew both in physical ability and mental gymnastics, and that Data of course was obviously patterned after Spock. Trek since then has spread the super abilities around much more. In fact I'm trying to remember a Spocks-brain-saves-the-day episode in SNW and struggling to recall one though there may have been. Surely though there has been more Spock as unstable teenager than Spock super genius. 

Spock and Kirk were equals, Kirk may have been smarter,you could argue it successfully, but I think that that sort of ranking  is probably silly. The ability to calculate mathematical equations and the social awkwardness to do it out loud is not necessarily evidence of superior intelligence. Spock had training. Data was just drawn that way. 

[paigow]

Despite several double fisted chops, TOS!Kirk needed the unidentified object to defeat Khan. 

WoK!Kirk outwitted Khan  - The 2 Dimensional Thinker  

[marinw]

Has Kirk EVER lost a fight? He even took down his would-be assassin after being stabbed in the lung Journey to Babel.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

"Sorry Spock, you don't get that extra 10 TB (or whatever the measure is) of computing power...your calculations will take an extra hour instead."

Everybody use their Data Plan and not the Wi-Fi.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, marinw said:

Has Kirk EVER lost a fight?

He always loses to Spock, lost to Soren, Mugato  

[marinw]

3 minutes ago, paigow said:

Mugato

I almost forgot about that one! 

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

part of it is this show envisions computers as far more sophisticated than TOS does and implicitly or explicitly has computers doing more of all the crew's work, not just Spock's.

I dont think so. I think it's specifically how they want to write the show ie giving much more emphasis to role of various women by elevating what they are capable of, basically in a sense making amends for how women and POC were generally portrayed in TOS and tbh even TNG- if they were portrayed at all. 

What we have seen in SNW so far, you could argue that Spock actually needs the assistance of the rest of the crew to even get by, if anything he is portrayed as the weakest link. Meanwhile Ortega is the greatest pilot in the universe, La'an is some kind of fighting machine that could be engineered a bit, Una is the impervious engineered Illyrian who is clearly superior to plain old humans, M;Benga is the most lethal warrior in the galaxy, Uhuru is some kind of genius who has barely scratched surface of what she may be able to do....and Pike has been reduced to a happy chef hoping everyone can get along thru food and Sam Kirk is the annoying doofus. That is no accident, it's the progressivism of the show on display. 

Full disclosure I dont say any of that as criticism but rather observation, though I do wish Spock was good bit more TOS Spock and in hindsight do find myself a bit annoyed with how he's written because of how bad ass he really is in the rest of Trek.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Has Kirk EVER lost a fight? He even took down his would-be assassin after being stabbed in the lung Journey to Babel.

Off the top of my head:

Kirk lost to Spock in "Amok Time" (albeit he had the home court disadvantage and got drugged by McCoy) and was losing to him again in "This Side of Paradise."

The rogue captain Tracy whipped him in "The Omega Glory."

"Finnegan," or the android duplicate of his Academy tormentor, was beating him in the various wrestling he was doing in "Shore Leave."

I had to cheat and use the Internet to be reminded in "Mirror, Mirror," Kirk was getting beat down by Mirror Spock but got saved by Uhura.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[marinw]

I stand corrected @Chicago Redshirt. Whatever the case, I have always found the TOS fight scenes wonderful. I do wonder if we will see how SNW  Paul Wesley’s Kirk handles himself in a fight.

Edited August 8, 2023 by marinw

[starri]

We're all Trekkies, there's always going to be some digression about other series, however, if the entirety of your post is about a show other than SNW, please take it to the appropriate thread.

Thank you.

[phlebas]

On 8/8/2023 at 1:07 PM, tv-talk said:

In fact I'm trying to remember a Spocks-brain-saves-the-day episode in SNW and struggling to recall one though there may have been. Surely though there has been more Spock as unstable teenager than Spock super genius. 

I think that's an interesting point, and I'm wondering now how much of that is to show an obvious maturing from PeckSpock to NimoySpock.  Apart from Amock Time, NimoySpock only gets to let his hair down when he's sprayed with spores on the Amish planet or possessed by the Medusan or Sargon*.

(* I just realized -- Diana Muldaur walking on the set meant Nimoy was getting to smile on camera.)

Now PeckSpock is experimenting with letting his emotions out, sort of like young humans experiment with acid or Communism.  And he got burned, like young humans experimenting with meth:

"Convinced myself we shared the same feelings / I won't make that mistake again"

Which he doesn't, as we see throughout the rest of Spock's life outside the Kelvin timeline. (Speaking of which, I guess he could start something up with Uhura to sort of bridge things there. At least that would rob the relationship of the creepy instructor/student vibe, but could introduce some problems with dating a superior officer.)

Anyway.  I'm babbling. I thought the OP had a good point :)

(ETA: Also, I wonder if Ethan/Production is somewhat reimagining Spock after retconning him a human sibling around during his childhood.)

Edited August 10, 2023 by phlebas

[Prevailing Wind]

I started watching this again just for the opening theme. In the first song, when sickbay is checking in, saying eveything's ok, "just the mundane - a headache, a splinter..."

How do you get a splinter on a starship?

[phlebas]

31 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

How do you get a splinter on a starship?

Chronitons. Or maybe a warp field inversion during a gravimetric flux. Or maybe there's an arboretum. 

[ML89]

52 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I started watching this again just for the opening theme. In the first song, when sickbay is checking in, saying eveything's ok, "just the mundane - a headache, a splinter..."

How do you get a splinter on a starship?

For all we know, Pike has some ensign chopping up mesquite for a grill.

Edited August 10, 2023 by ML89

[paigow]

5 hours ago, phlebas said:

Chronitons. Or maybe a warp field inversion during a gravimetric flux. Or maybe there's an arboretum. 

Shrapnel from all the exploding metal / polymers on the bridge

[historylover820]

6 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I started watching this again just for the opening theme. In the first song, when sickbay is checking in, saying eveything's ok, "just the mundane - a headache, a splinter..."

How do you get a splinter on a starship?

Isn't there a TNG episode where Crusher is concerned that Picard has a headache because headaches are so unbelievably rare? Or did I imagine that?

I know SNW is around 80-85 years before TNG, and it would be baffling to suddenly have an outbreak of Smallpox in today's society. 

[Prevailing Wind]

4 hours ago, historylover820 said:

Or did I imagine that?

Sometimes I remember something and can't recall if I saw it on TV or dreamed it.

 

[Affogato]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:15 PM, Prevailing Wind said:

I started watching this again just for the opening theme. In the first song, when sickbay is checking in, saying eveything's ok, "just the mundane - a headache, a splinter..."

How do you get a splinter on a starship?

splinters don't have to be wood. They can be fiberglass, metal, ice, anything that shatters.

[aemom]

I love a good musical, but I was skeptical about how they would make this work.

But they really pulled it off, and the Klingon number was comedy gold.

I loved how they even "Broadwayified" the opening credits.

It was a fun one-off.

[marinw]

I just heard someone on the  Pop Culture Happy Hour Podcast refer to this episode as "Once More with Phasers".

Edited August 14, 2023 by marinw

[Affogato]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:33 PM, historylover820 said:

Isn't there a TNG episode where Crusher is concerned that Picard has a headache because headaches are so unbelievably rare? Or did I imagine that?

I know SNW is around 80-85 years before TNG, and it would be baffling to suddenly have an outbreak of Smallpox in today's society. 

I remember that, if only because it seemed dumb. Pain is a useful warning system. 

[MissLucas]

Plenty of wood in those lush quarters, Pike even has an open fireplace for barbecues and wooden countertops.

[Affogato]

37 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Plenty of wood in those lush quarters, Pike even has an open fireplace for barbecues and wooden countertops.

The barrier would be transportation, cost of transporting, so assuming the energy needed to beam the stuff Into orbit isn't prohibitive, why not? The fireplace seems questionable. 

[tkc]

I was wondering what the in-universe reason for the musical episode would be… a quantum probability field, eh?

The hoopy writer who came up with that is probably a frood who really knows where their towel is!

Edited August 26, 2023 by tkc

[Ottis]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:03 PM, Zaffy said:

But indeed, I think the show does not justify its title.

Agreed. Sorry, show, I fast-forwarded through every musical number, pausing only for the dialogue between. I have a lifelong hatred of musicals. And I don't understand why I have to watch one on a Star Trek show.

This series is more "what interests the writers this week" than what is of interest to viewers, is unique or thought-provoking, or that complements the show's title.

And for the love of Pike, please get rid of this Kirk.

 

[Ottis]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:33 PM, historylover820 said:

I know SNW is around 80-85 years before TNG, and it would be baffling to suddenly have an outbreak of Smallpox in today's society. 

And yet that is exactly what is happening with TB and some other once-rare or eliminated diseases, thanks to a segment of the population that has decided to no longer listen to experts.