S08.E23: Sacrifice

[Demented Daisy]

Sam and Dean capture Crowley to finish the trials and close the gates of Hell. Castiel and Metatron continue the trials to close the gates of Heaven. Sam is left with a huge decision.

 

 

From S7E22 There Will Be Blood:

 

ALPHA VAMPIRE

See you next season.

 

 

And in this episode:

CASTIEL

Do you really think it's wise to be drinking on the job?

 

DEAN

What show you been watching?

 

 

Sometimes this show gets a little too meta, in their desire to be clever, IMO.

 

Anyway....  Apart from Crowley singing Bowie and the stunning visual effect of the angels falling, I was underwhelmed.  And annoyed that we lost Naomi.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

Well at least they stayed consistent with one thing all season--I was annoyed. I kid, I kid...sort of. I think it's pretty much what I said about the last couple, too much going on to really service it properly. Mark Sheppard owned this episode, though, IMO.

[catrox14]

I always feel bad because I know poor Jared acted his little heart out, but man I just wanted to punch Sam in the nose because somehow his guilt about letting Dean down came across as Dean being the bad guy here.  So for me that really colors the episode.

[rue721]

This is a pretty bad episode overall, imo, for all the reasons people have mentioned above, and then some -- but I do like its ending pretty well. Sam seemed like a lunatic by the time Dean got to that church, and he always gives good lunatic. I also liked how Dean was obviously going to say *whatever* he needed to say to get Sam to not die. Sam wants to be trusted and regarded as an equal? OK, Dean's going to talk about how he trusts Sam so much that he knows they'll be basically an invincible team now so, honestly, if you really think about it, it would be better for the *whole world* if Sam would just NOT DIE.

 

Couldn't tell you what Sam was thinking, but characterization hasn't made much sense to me throughout S8, so...I *think* the idea they were going for was, "Sam didn't choose Dean at the beginning of the season, but he redeemed himself and chose him at the end of it." But that's also pretty much just a stab in the dark. Since they never really established what the conflict was between the brothers, when it was "resolved" at the end of the season, it didn't really make any sense, or at least not to me.

 

If the theme for the season was supposed to be (mis)perception and (mis)communication, I wonder how the season (and the Trials storyline) would have unfolded if they'd kept the idea of Dean having flashbacks and PTSD, or with him otherwise struggling more to connect with Sam and struggling with how trustworthy his perceptions of the world in general were. I think the original idea was for Dean to be barely holding on in the beginning and needing to rely on Sam to guide him, and then have that flipped by the end of the season, with Sam barely holding on and then choosing to let Dean guide him, too. But then Dean was holding on just fine after the premiere, so...I wonder why they dropped it? I wonder what Dean's SL for this season was supposed to be, anyway? I don't really mean plotwise (since, who could guess), more in terms of character growth? I think something must have gotten scrapped, but I can't figure out what it could have originally been. I think that the brothers were originally supposed to each have some sort of mis/perception of each other, and Dean's perception of Sam, that changed over the course of the season, was that he wasn't trustworthy/dependable -- but what was Sam's original mis/perception of Dean supposed to have been, and how did it change over the season?

 

Anyway! Back to the ending of the episode:  what was funny/sweet, imo, is that as soon as they get outside and Sam starts keeling over, Dean says things like, "you'll be OK, little brother!" It kind of undermines all the "I believe in us as a team! I'll trust you!"-type stuff he said in the church -- but that's also a big part of why I like it. He also was calling Sam his "little brother" when he was freaking out over Sam being lost during the second trial. My sappy self does find that sweet, too, because I can't really imagine thinking of Sam as vulnerable, but Dean clearly does.

 

Tbh, Dean's attitude toward Sam this season reminds me of my grandma's toward me. It seems like, in Dean's head, Sam is perpetually six years old. It's also cracked me up all season to see Dean be like "I want you to get married! When are you going to settle down! My dream is for you to get married, have babies, live in a nice house, and stay current on your prostate exams!" Again, such traditional "grandma" sentiments. For the same reason, I've enjoyed Dean constantly giving Sam some kind of variation on, "STOP! YOU'RE GOING TO DIE! Let me do [dangerous thing]! I've already lived my life! There's no hope for me, but you're still young! (But I also want to see you married before I go, js!)." And Dean's constant urging for Sam to eat more. Not only has Dean literally said, "When was the last time you ate?!" but it was only a rhetorical question/scolding at the time because he himself had been keeping track of exactly how much Sam had eaten. He even made Sam special "get well" soup. That sort of thing -- and Sam's irritation at it! -- always makes me smile. I think the show pulls that stuff off relatively well. It's easy to empathize with both of them when they're acting like that, imo, it doesn't usually get too OTT or silly, and the show doesn't make a joke out of it.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, still a solid meh for me. I think the biggest fail is that they never showed us Sam's confession. That was very important business, IMO. I also think all the stuff with Jodi should've been shifted into Clip Show and all the stupid stuff with Marvatron and Cas needed to be in the Great Escapist somehow. Actually, they could've cut out Freeks and Geeks altogether and then could've split Clip Show and Sacrifice into three episodes with the hunt for what curing a demon means in one; Marvatron and Cass coupled with the boys capturing Crowley in another; then they could've started this episode with Sam's confession. Oh well, there's not point in going down that road now is there?

 

Still think Mark Sheppard owns this episode, though. In fact, I think both Jared and Mark came to play in this episode and if the whole blood cure thing didn't make me so annoyed I probably would've connected with it better. Plus, I never felt like they were actually going to shut the Gates of Hell, so the urgency here really doesn't affect me like I think they want it to. And, can I just gag a little over some of the dialogue--a whole lot of soapy writing in this episode. Yuck!

 

I so wish they had done more with Naomi, she really was one of the most fascinating things to come out of S8 for me. The angels falling was a pretty visual, though.  I also thought some of the crane shots of the church were kinda beautiful too. I know they had weather issues and didn't get the shots they wanted, but I think that stuff worked out okay in the end.

 

 

Couldn't tell you what Sam was thinking, but characterization hasn't made much sense to me throughout S8, so...I *think* the idea they were going for was, "Sam didn't choose Dean at the beginning of the season, but he redeemed himself and chose him at the end of it." But that's also pretty much just a stab in the dark. Since they never really established what the conflict was between the brothers, when it was "resolved" at the end of the season, it didn't really make any sense, or at least not to me.

 

There's a deleted scene on the DVDs that wasn't necessary for plot, but I feel its a shame it got cut because it goes right to the heart of Sam's motivations here and really makes the ending be more of a sacrifice for Dean also. The scene is supposed to be right after they captured Crowley and it flashbacks to Sam and Dean having an argument as to whether they should take Crowley's deal. Sam wants to take the deal because he's tired of seeing people he's saved die--and well, he's just plain tired by this point. Dean wants to continue on because he feels their deaths will be meaningless otherwise. Dean has all these files with possessions and deaths via demons and is trying to use them to illustrate how other people are going to keep dying if they stop now. Sam says, he doesn't know those people, but people they saved he does. So Dean tosses Sam a folder and asks him why she died. Sam opens it and finds a picture of Mary inside. It's a nice little scene and highlights one of the things I like most about the show--two differing points of view and neither is entirely right or wrong; just different.

 

See, if they hadn't tried to cram so much in here, they would've had time for this little scene. I didn't necessarily need it to understand what was going on, but it certainly does help pop some things in focus. Sigh.

[Goldmoon]

JP and MS were great in this one, but I felt the story was unfinished, not in the usual good cliffhanger way but in a "what the hell just happened" kind of way.

[GirlyGeek]

:slow clap:

Oh, not for this episode, though.  I'm giving myself a slow clap for freaking finally finishing Season 8!
I stopped commenting on episodes a long time ago, but I thought I'd stop in here to mark finally getting through this season and moving on.  Not that I'm gonna like much what I'm moving on to in Season 9, iirc

 

OK, so I haven't been able to get a good grasp on Sam this season at all.  I don't get his motivations, I don't get why he didn't look for Dean (and why he couldn't understand why Dean was upset about it), etc.  I do get that he latched on to these trials and was ready to follow them to the end, and Dean (against all his usual feelings and 'save sammy' programming) was helping to get him there.  I guess they thought Sam would be fine after the trials (?  I don't remember this being said/set in stone and with all the talk about Sam being irrevocably changed, I don't know why they'd believe Sam was going to be OK, but whatever.

 

While I loved everything Dean said to Sam in the church, I still don't get Sam's POV.  Like, at all.  Like another poster said above, somehow Sam's speech made Dean come out the bad guy?!  Ok, Sam, if your biggest sin is letting Dean down (which... um, ok, whatever), then STOP.DOING.IT.  LOL
It just seemed like the writers had to reach back 10-12 episodes ago and pull this speech for Sam, cause in my eyes the brothers Winchester have been doing mostly OK and supporting each other and re-building a bit since mid season... so why shove the old angst into Sam's speech again?  I mean, Dean has been supporting Sam and the trials all season!  And while Sam didn't hear it, Dean's speech in Clip Show to the pastor guy was great re: Sam being able to accomplish the trials 100% and Dean believing in him.  SO its jarring for the audience, after seeing Dean's support and hearing how much he believes in his brother, to have, this episode, Dean saying Sam needs to be babysat and Sam verbally puking old resentments.  I just don't get it.

And, I'm sorry, but I don't see why they thought it was OK to *not* finish the trials.  Other than not wanting Sam to die (which I get, I really really do), it was incredibly selfish to not close the gates!  This is what they do.  They make the big sacrifices to save the world.  Suddenly they're not willing to make the sacrifice?  Since when? And what about all the collateral damage all season long, all the people who died while they went on this quest to close the gates?  You think Kevin was going to understand that his mom died, his whole life got flip-turned upside down (I've got fresh prince on the brain, lol), to complete these trials, and suddenly, nah, we're not gonna follow through? 

I loved Dean's speech to Sam, really did.  But (imo) he was wrong to stop Sam, and Sam was wrong to go along with it.
Did I want to have another season finale where a brother died to do xyz?  No, not really.  Cause its annoying now and they always come back, so its not really a big deal (except for the emotional toll we get to usually see, at least on Dean's part)
So, why did MetaTron have to be lying?  Why couldn't Sam do something right and good and close the gates and live?  I just don't see why they had to throw in, at the 11th and a half hour, that Sam will die from the trials?  It wasn't necessary.  There could have been any other reason the trials couldn't get done (if that's what the writers ultimately needed to have happen).

 

Otoh, I did like Crowley and Sam's scenes.  And Crowley's changing attitude and confessions were great.  Mark Sheppard did a fabulous job with that and Jared's performance was awesome.  Watching Sam get more and more desperate and messed up and a little crazed was very entertaining.

OK, on to Season 9.  Not excited.

Edited April 13, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[DittyDotDot]

:slow clap:

Oh, not for this episode, though.  I'm giving myself a slow clap for freaking finally finishing Season 8!

I stopped commenting on episodes a long time ago, but I thought I'd stop in here to mark finally getting through this season and moving on.  Not that I'm gonna like much what I'm moving on to in Season 9, iirc

 

I feel your pain, Girly Geek. It took my nine months to do a full series re-watch....S8 and S9, were by far the most difficult to get through. I recommend lots and lots of alcohol. That helps with burn, let me tell ya. ;)

[GirlyGeek]

I was trucking right through the seasons, all quick-like, and then Season 8 hit and I hit the brakes.  Took a few weeks off, even.  I just couldn't get excited to continually  being confused and frustrated.  
Alcohol, should have thought of that.  I'll start now, for Season 9.  :cries:

[AwesomO4000]

OK, so I haven't been able to get a good grasp on Sam this season at all.  I don't get his motivations, I don't get why he didn't look for Dean (and why he couldn't understand why Dean was upset about it), etc.  I do get that he latched on to these trials and was ready to follow them to the end, and Dean (against all his usual feelings and 'save sammy' programming) was helping to get him there.  I guess they thought Sam would be fine after the trials (?  I don't remember this being said/set in stone and with all the talk about Sam being irrevocably changed, I don't know why they'd believe Sam was going to be OK, but whatever.

 

While I loved everything Dean said to Sam in the church, I still don't get Sam's POV.  Like, at all.  Like another poster said above, somehow Sam's speech made Dean come out the bad guy?!  Ok, Sam, if your biggest sin is letting Dean down (which... um, ok, whatever), then STOP.DOING.IT.  LOL.

 

I agree with you on the first part. Sam not looking for Dean (or Kevin) didn't make sense, in my opinion, and there was no attempt by the writers to explain it either - which made it even worse.

 

I didn't think what Sam said made Dean out to be the bad guy though per se. I thought that at least with respect to Castiel that Sam had a good point and that it was a legitimate question. And I think that the reason it all came up again for Sam was because he overheard what Dean said to Cas and because of the confession thing - and I really do think Sam was looking for the ritual to do there and not what sins to confess to, because obviously Sam knew his own sins - and the fact that Dean just went there so easily with some stuff from so long ago. Put those two things together along with the stress of the trials and Sam felt once again that nothing he ever did was good enough to gain Dean's forgiveness or trust, and he'd never be good enough to live up to Dean's other go tos: Castiel and Benny neither of whom are human and aren't going to make human mistakes like Sam is. Sam knew that Dean supported him, but support and trust and forgiveness are different things. After overhearing what Dean said to Cas and likely not necessarily understanding what Dean meant by it, I think that's where the "what can I do where you'll trust me as much as them" came from, and as I said, with Castiel at least, it was a legitimate question since Cas hadn't really been Mr. Trustworthy for most of the season (not his fault entirely, but still...). That was my take on what Sam was saying anyway.

 

As for not letting Dean down, sometimes that's not so easy to do. Most times Dean is extremely forgiving and understanding and doesn't ask for much, but sometimes he isn't and does, and it's not always easy to figure out which things are which. It ain't easy trying to live up to Dean Winchester.

[GirlyGeek]

I just don't see Dean as being that complicated, though. And I don't see where Sam was coming from with the Cas and Benny talk?

Deans dropped Cas like a hot potato over, numerous times, written him off even, when betrayed or hurt by him. He may be family, but he isn't on the same level as his brother. Not even close. And I think Deans showed that over and over. He and Sam can barely stay apart for longer than an episode, and Deans always chosen Sam over anyone and everything.

And Benny? A couple of snarky comments and looks from Sam and Dean dropped Benny, too. For Sam. Then killed Benny. To save Sam.

Also, I can't stand how Sam says the name Benny... Like a petulant child. Sorry, off topic. ;)

Anyway, to me the 'how am I ever going to be as important or trusted as Cas or Benny' whine from Sam just didn't ring true to me at all.

Now, I get that it was low for Dean to start retreading old sins of Sam's. When deans betrayed he forgives but he holds on and doesn't forget. Even for his brother. But Sam did ask, lol

But as for it being difficult to live up to Dean Winchester, I'm not so sure that's ever been requested. Maybe in Sam's mind that how he sees it, and being the little brother I could understand that he feels there is some kind of bar. Also being the little brother who's betrayed or let down the older brother and I could see that Sam feels like he has to live up to some kind of standard of Deans. But I don't see Dean ever want more than a brother who's by his side, not hiding things from him.

The fact that they're such complicated and rich characters that we can discuss the, in so much depth though is fascinating to me! :)

Edited April 14, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[GirlyGeek]

Ok, so I went back and watched the last few scenes between the brothers (which, Ahhhh, even if I don't agree with the dialogue, they still *kill* me!)

Transcript:

DEAN

Think about it. Think about what we know, huh? Pulling souls from hell, curing demons, hell, ganking a Hellhound! We have enough knowledge on our side to turn the tide here. But I can't do it without you.

SAM

You can barely do it with me. I mean, you think I screw up everything I try. You think I need a chaperone, remember?

DEAN

Come on, man. That's not what I meant.

SAM

No, it's exactly what you meant. You want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again.

DEAN

Sam --

SAM

[beginning to cry] What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just –

DEAN

Hold on, hold on! You seriously think that? Because none of it -- none of it -- is true. Listen, man, I know we've had our disagreements, okay? Hell, I know I've said some junk that set you back on your heels. But, Sammy...come on. I killed Benny to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever! I need you to see that. I'm begging you.

SAM

How do I stop?

*******

I think the part that made me throw my hands up was this:

"What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just -"

He's upset that Dean turns to Cas for help or because he trusts Cas? Since when?

And, while he never liked Benny, how can he throw Benny in Deans face? Are they saying that Sam is actually mad that Dean found someone in *purgatory* to watch his back and help keep him alive? The same Benny that allowed himself to be beheaded to save Sam?

And it's not like Dean just suddenly decides Sam's not trustworthy. Sam's done untrustworthy things!

And the real kicker is the last line,... Um yes, Sam, Dean knows exactly how it feels. Remember beating him to a pulp so you could run off with Ruby, who everyone told you was bad news and using you? Remember choosing a demon over Dean? Dean does have a very good idea how it feels, thank you very much.

Whew, I'm pretty sure that that line is what made me wtf Sam's whole speech here. MV of course, lol

Edited April 14, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[DittyDotDot]

I think you only have two options if really want to understand that speech:

1. Pretend 90 percent of that exchange didn't happen--only keep the parts where Dean tells Sam to stop and Sam says okay. Easy peasy, right?
2. Ignore 90 percent of what came before S8--I find if I think of S8 as a new show and I don't know anything about Sam and Dean Winchester, Sam and Dean make a slight bit more sense.

 

I guess there's a third option: don't try to understand it, but that's not really my way. Personally, I tend to lean towards option 1, but option 2 can be helpful throughout S8. ;)

 

I really think they had things backwards for so much of S8. It seems to me Dean doing the trials and Sam being support would've been a better through line for Sam's arc of S8. Having Sam have to show Dean how he wasn't going to ever abandon him again and just how important Dean is to him, I think would've made more sense. And having Dean be the one thinking he wasn't all that important in Sam's life, so might as well die trying to get a big win would've fit more with where they started the season. Ah well, it is what it is, right?

Edited April 14, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[GirlyGeek]

I really think they had things backwards for so much of S8. It seems to me Dean doing the trials and Sam being support would've been a better through line for Sam's arc of S8. Having Sam have to show Dean how he wasn't going to ever abandon him again and just how important Dean is to him, I think would've made more sense. And having Dean be the one thinking he wasn't all that important in Sam's life, so might as well die trying to get a big win would've fit more with where they started the season.

DDD, could you write the show please? Cause that way makes so much more sense. And doesn't make me want to gouge my eyeballs out in frustration.

[catrox14]

I've been beating the drum of Dean doing the trials FOREVER. It drives me crazy.

 

It would even make Death showing up to reap Dean sensible because he has a weird relationship with Dean.  So much WTFery in s8

[AwesomO4000]

I just don't see Dean as being that complicated, though. And I don't see where Sam was coming from with the Cas and Benny talk?

Deans dropped Cas like a hot potato over, numerous times, written him off even, when betrayed or hurt by him. He may be family, but he isn't on the same level as his brother. Not even close. And I think Deans showed that over and over. He and Sam can barely stay apart for longer than an episode, and Deans always chosen Sam over anyone and everything.

 

I don't know if this is totally true per se if we're talking about trusting. Dean doesn't always choose Sam to trust, and there are multiple examples of this: John, Castiel, even Gordon at first. I'm also not sure Dean always chose Sam over anyone or everything else and there are multiple examples of that as well - civilians, Sam's "humanity", Dean's own principals. I'm not saying Dean should always choose Sam here - he shouldn't - I'm just saying that I don't think he does. Or at least he didn't used to.

 

And Benny? A couple of snarky comments and looks from Sam and Dean dropped Benny, too. For Sam. Then killed Benny. To save Sam.

Also, I can't stand how Sam says the name Benny... Like a petulant child. Sorry, off topic. ;)

 

Sam's hatred of Benny made zero sense to me. I found it little but character assassination.

 

Now, I get that it was low for Dean to start retreading old sins of Sam's. When deans betrayed he forgives but he holds on and doesn't forget. Even for his brother. But Sam did ask, lol

 

I got the impression Sam was asking how to do the ritual of confession - like what goes along with the "Bless me father for I have sinned..." - not for what to confess to, but it is up for interpretation.

 

But as for it being difficult to live up to Dean Winchester, I'm not so sure that's ever been requested. Maybe in Sam's mind that how he sees it, and being the little brother I could understand that he feels there is some kind of bar. Also being the little brother who's betrayed or let down the older brother and I could see that Sam feels like he has to live up to some kind of standard of Deans. But I don't see Dean ever want more than a brother who's by his side, not hiding things from him.

 

But is that fair to always ask even? Dean hides things all the time from Sam "for his own good." Hides his emotions, his mental health, etc. again supposedly for Sam's own good. He trades his soul for Sam even though he knows Sam wouldn't want him to and then asks Sam not to be mad about it, and expects Sam to be "fine" about losing Dean and living with the guilt of not being able to save Dean. Of course Sam isn't going to be able to live up to that and is going to "let Dean down" by turning into a basket case. Dean felt the same way when Sam died in season 2, and it wasn't even something related to Dean or something Dean could have stopped. I know it is often Dean's self-esteem issues that are highlighted, but Sam has his own self-esteem issues and feelings of failure. And that's not even counting the family making Sam feel guilty for going away to college - so much so that Sam eventually thought they were right.

 

The fact that they're such complicated and rich characters that we can discuss the, in so much depth though is fascinating to me! :)

 

I agree with you there.

 

I think the part that made me throw my hands up was this:

"What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just -"

He's upset that Dean turns to Cas for help or because he trusts Cas? Since when?

And, while he never liked Benny, how can he throw Benny in Deans face? Are they saying that Sam is actually mad that Dean found someone in *purgatory* to watch his back and help keep him alive? The same Benny that allowed himself to be beheaded to save Sam?

And it's not like Dean just suddenly decides Sam's not trustworthy. Sam's done untrustworthy things!

And the real kicker is the last line,... Um yes, Sam, Dean knows exactly how it feels. Remember beating him to a pulp so you could run off with Ruby, who everyone told you was bad news and using you? Remember choosing a demon over Dean? Dean does have a very good idea how it feels, thank you very much.

Whew, I'm pretty sure that that line is what made me wtf Sam's whole speech here. MV of course, lol

 

Lots of questions there, and I don't have answers for most of them. From Sam's perspective, I guess he doesn't want to have to start from scratch again. By this point in the show, Ruby was 4 seasons and about 180 years in hell ago for Sam. From Sam's perspective, he took on those hell memories so he could be there for Dean and he tried to be there for Dean all through season 7 despite his craziness, and after the first time he lied and it caused problems, he made sure to tell Dean the truth about his condition at all times. Sam likely thinks he's paid his dues in that respect and proved that he's earned Dean's trust by now only to hear what sounds like Dean not trusting him again - while talking to Castiel who's been doing some very shady things recently himself. Of course there was the crappy Amelia / not looking for Dean storyline throwing a wrench in all of that, but that made so damn little sense that I'm not sure what to do with that.

 

And for me the Ruby incident is more complicated than just Sam choosing Ruby over Dean. As with this episode the main issue was more about Sam wanting Dean's trust. Sam wanted Dean to come with him, but Dean insisted no Ruby, and Sam thought he needed Ruby too. For me, the main issue was this - Sam: "My whole life, you take the wheel, you call the shots, and I trust you because you are my brother. Now I'm asking you, for once, trust me."  Dean: "No. You don't know what you're doing, Sam."  And when Sam said he did, that's when Dean said he was a monster. And yes, Sam was wrong, but they were all wrong. Sam shouldn't have trusted Ruby, but Dean shouldn't have trusted the angels either, including Cas. Dean could've avoided the whole fight by just "trusting" Sam and then ganking Ruby later. (But he's so damn stubborn, and again chose his principals over Sam and even Sam's well being in this case.)

 

So for me, the comparison to what Sam is asking isn't quite the same. Sam didn't choke Dean because he was choosing Ruby over Dean or because he didn't trust Dean. He wanted Dean there also, but Dean wouldn't go for it. In my opinion, Sam choked Dean, because Dean wouldn't even consider trusting Sam and then called Sam a monster.

 

I really think they had things backwards for so much of S8. It seems to me Dean doing the trials and Sam being support would've been a better through line for Sam's arc of S8. Having Sam have to show Dean how he wasn't going to ever abandon him again and just how important Dean is to him, I think would've made more sense. And having Dean be the one thinking he wasn't all that important in Sam's life, so might as well die trying to get a big win would've fit more with where they started the season. Ah well, it is what it is, right?

 

I'd rather we forget the whole Sam doesn't look for Dean thing in the first place. It made no sense, based on what came before. If we can't then your suggestions would seem to make more sense, but to me, Dean doing the trials because he might as well die trying to get a big win while Sam does his best to support Dean and show Dean how important Dean is to him would mainly be just a bad repeat of season 7, because that's pretty much what happened in that season, too, just in my opinion, a whole lot better. And if Sam had to go through both the Amelia / not looking for Dean or Kevin storyline and then also have only the support role while Dean got the purgatory arc, Benny, Castiel, and the trials... what a completely crappy season for Sam, in my opinion. So Sam's character gets trashed just so he can once again show Dean he loves, supports, and needs him?

 

Damn, I hated a lot of this season.

Edited April 14, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

I'd rather we forget the whole Sam doesn't look for Dean thing in the first place. It made no sense, based on what came before. If we can't then your suggestions would seem to make more sense, but to me, Dean doing the trials because he might as well die trying to get a big win while Sam does his best to support Dean and show Dean how important Dean is to him would mainly be just a bad repeat of season 7, because that's pretty much what happened in that season, too, just in my opinion, a whole lot better. And if Sam had to go through both the Amelia / not looking for Dean or Kevin storyline and then also have only the support role while Dean got the purgatory arc, Benny, Castiel, and the trials... what a completely crappy season for Sam, in my opinion. So Sam's character gets trashed just so he can once again show Dean he loves, supports, and needs him?

 

But would've it been a crappy season for Sam if there had been some point for Sam going through those things in the end? I guess I look at it as, I'm fine with them taking a character somewhere, even and unlikeable place, as long as it leads to something interesting. To me, there was no point to all the angst and backbiting in the first half because what they did in the second half was entirely counter-intuitive to what they set up. So, I think I could've looked back more fondly on S8 if, when it was all said and done, there had been a through line from start to finish. Granted Carver said he had a three-year plan, so one could argue it could all come full circle in S10. I'm just not sure if when we get there I'll actually care to get some resolution from S8? I'm fine with a slow burn, if the stuff in the middle engages me and keeps me entertained until we get to the end, I'm just not sure they accomplished that here?

 

Okay, I'm gonna torture a metaphor because I can and love to do so...

For me, watching Supernatural is akin to eating an Oreo cookie. The sweet and creamy MotW filling was what keep me coming back to naw on the chocolate-crunchy myth arc episodes. Sometimes I'd need to dip the outside in milk to make the crunchy bookends a little softer, but when all was said and done, it was an enjoyable and satisfying treat. Unfortunately, S8 had that weird dairy/sugar-free creamy filling that was not only not sweet but also not very filling. And the chocolate crunchy outside was also uncharacteristically bitter that no amount of milk drenching could make them palatable to me. The whole thing really had me wondering why anyone would make an imitation Supernatural-eo when, in eaten in moderation, there wasn't anything really wrong with the original, IMO.

 

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Nabisco and was not paid to write these comments...in fact, I actually don't really care for Oreos much, but I do love a good metaphor-torture! ;)

Edited April 14, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[GirlyGeek]

Lol, DDD, finally someone who understands why I won't eat off brand Oreos or off brand Oreo cookie ice cream!
Why mess with it?!

In all seriousness I am loving this discussion because we can all take away from the show and the characters something different. I am ok with bringing characters down so they can build them back up. In fact I thought they would never be able to redeem Sam for me after season 4, but they did. but Season 8 has yet to make sense to me for Sam, so if it's something that's still coming then they're really posing a risk cause they lost some fans over S8 and S9 craziness.

I'm choosing to take the good out of the church speech and see Sam's words as general frustration with not being good enough & him being not willing to let Dean down (and leaving the Angel and vampire and the totally lame line about Dean not knowing what it feels like). And I'm keeping in my head canon most of what Dean says because there's some big time brotherly love coming through and things that needed to be said.
 

So for me, the comparison to what Sam is asking isn't quite the same. Sam didn't choke Dean because he was choosing Ruby over Dean or because he didn't trust Dean. He wanted Dean there also, but Dean wouldn't go for it. In my opinion, Sam choked Dean, because Dean wouldn't even consider trusting Sam and then called Sam a monster.

I just can't get behind this, though. I mean, I can see where that might be Sam's blood-addled and twisted brain *thinking* that, and that's fine. But he's wrong,and I think Dean was 95% right in his actions in that season (though he acted out of his hurt and betrayal in some places). Sam wasn't trustworthy, his actions weren't and his entire demeanor screamed "just give me one more hit, I'm fine, I'm not crazy or an addict, why won't you trust me?"
 

I'd rather we forget the whole Sam doesn't look for Dean thing in the first place. It made no sense, based on what came before.

From your mouth to my brain, lol. I wish I could forget it cause we agree there: it was senseless.

Edited April 14, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[AwesomO4000]

But would've it been a crappy season for Sam if there had been some point for Sam going through those things in the end? I guess I look at it as, I'm fine with them taking a character somewhere, even and unlikeable place, as long as it leads to something interesting. To me, there was no point to all the angst and backbiting in the first half because what they did in the second half was entirely counter-intuitive to what they set up. So, I think I could've looked back more fondly on S8 if, when it was all said and done, there had been a through line from start to finish. Granted Carver said he had a three-year plan, so one could argue it could all come full circle in S10. I'm just not sure if when we get there I'll actually care to get some resolution from S8? I'm fine with a slow burn, if the stuff in the middle engages me and keeps me entertained until we get to the end, I'm just not sure they accomplished that here?

 

I guess I just didn't see the point of repeating the themes of season 4 and 5 (with 6.5-7) again when for me it wasn't necessary. So if the question is would I still have thought it was a crappy season if Sam supported Dean through the trials and showed Dean that, yes, he needed him, etc. etc? The answer is still yes, because we already went through that in seasons 4 and 5 to an extent. Season 5 didn't end with Sam supporting Dean through something like the trials, but he had to go through that season trying to get back Dean's trust and then he supported Dean and showed him he trusted him and believed in him in "Point of No Return." Then Sam told Dean how much he needed him multiple times throughout season 6.5 through 7 - "Mannequin 3...", "Season 7: Time for a Wedding," "Slice Girls," etc. and tried to support him through Castiel's betrayal, losing Cas and Bobby and through Dean's Dick Roman quest: supporting Dean until Dean made the sacrifice this time and ended up in purgatory. And mostly Sam's attempts at support didn't make a big difference for Dean, and in the end, after all of that... instead of what should have happened, in my opinion - Sam looking for Dean and finally succeeding and saving him for a change - Sam was written to screw up yet again and the saving role was given to a vampire, putting Sam in the position that he should have to start all over and work for Dean's forgiveness and trust all over again.

 

And if the roles were reversed with the trials and Sam was the one who had Dean stop them and shoved Gadreel in Dean, Sam would have had yet more things to have to make up to Dean and get his trust back for. Though I suppose then at least Sam might have gotten the mark of Cain and actually gotten to kill an important foe - something Sam hasn't done since season 5 - but then there would be complaints that Sam was once again getting all the "good" storylines.

 

So bottom line, yes, I still think it would have been a crappy storyline, because I think Sam needs a new storyline other than Sam screws up and has to win Dean's trust back and prove how much he loves and supports him. The first time was good - and your Oreo metaphor is apt, because I really liked where the guys relationship was in season 7 - the second time made me really annoyed. And I really wanted to see Sam do something other than have to make it up to Dean for screwing up yet again. Especially since the screwing up they had Sam do seemed so out of character that I spent much of the first half of season 8 thinking that Sam's "flashbacks" were some sort of delusion and that Amelia was some made up fantasy, because actually Sam had gone crazy or something and that any moment we were going to learn what really happened with Sam.

 

In all seriousness I am loving this discussion because we can all take away from the show and the characters something different. I am ok with bringing characters down so they can build them back up. In fact I thought they would never be able to redeem Sam for me after season 4, but they did. but Season 8 has yet to make sense to me for Sam, so if it's something that's still coming then they're really posing a risk cause they lost some fans over S8 and S9 craziness.

 

I'm also fine with taking characters down to bring them back if it makes sense character-wise, but I really don't think what they did to Sam in season 8 did make sense character-wise (as in I didn't think it was something his character would do based on where he was without some major explanation)... and then they piled abandoning KEVIN in on top of that and pointed a huge neon sign at it as to how awful it was, when they obviously had little to no intention of bringing Sam back from that bit of cowardice even if they did address the Dean part of it. So no I don't get it, and I didn't see much intention of bringing Sam back from it.

 

To me, this episode - with only it's vague references to the first part of the season - was an attempt to try to pull in tiny snippets of that first part of the season even if they didn't make sense, and say "See it all fits. Look at this payoff! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." when it didn't really fit, and they conveniently skipped over a bunch of important character assassination and other stuff that should have been addressed and fixed - like Kevin.

 

I'm choosing to take the good out of the church speech and see Sam's words as general frustration with not being good enough & him being not willing to let Dean down (and leaving the Angel and vampire and the totally lame line about Dean not knowing what it feels like). And I'm keeping in my head canon most of what Dean says because there's some big time brotherly love coming through and things that needed to be said.

 

But to me, it was a Sam thing to say, and he did mean it. Sam has said some things to Dean - and this is before that stupid stuff in "The Purge" - but often they were in the heat of the moment and fueled by Sam being angry or annoyed. Yes, Ruby happened, but as I said, that was a long time ago - and supposedly something that Dean said they were getting a new start from (Remember that whole speech, Dean? Apparently not.)  - and something Sam thought he'd shown Dean was in his past. Since then, Sam spends a lot of their daily life looking up to and trusting Dean. He's perfectly fine with asking "so what's the plan?" and going along with what Dean thinks is best. And likely he can't imagine that Dean doesn't know that - i.e. that Dean must know how much Sam trusts him and looks up to him. So I think that yes, Sam doesn't think Dean knows what it feels like to be the screw up brother who isn't trusted, because he doesn't look at Dean that way at all. So I actually thought that line made sense coming out of Sam. Was it actually true for Dean - nope, but that's because it's a matter of perspective, and to Sam it made sense based on how he feels about Dean. Sam doesn't think Dean understands, because he doesn't see Dean as a screw up and he trusts Dean completely, especially because Dean turned out to be right about Benny.

   

I just can't get behind this, though. I mean, I can see where that might be Sam's blood-addled and twisted brain *thinking* that, and that's fine. But he's wrong,and I think Dean was 95% right in his actions in that season (though he acted out of his hurt and betrayal in some places). Sam wasn't trustworthy, his actions weren't and his entire demeanor screamed "just give me one more hit, I'm fine, I'm not crazy or an addict, why won't you trust me?"

 

Taken to the "When the Levee Breaks" episode thread.

[GirlyGeek]

I'm also fine with taking characters down to bring them back if it makes sense character-wise, but I really don't think what they did to Sam in season 8 did make sense character-wise (as in I didn't think it was something his character would do based on where he was without some major explanation)... and then they piled abandoning KEVIN in on top of that and pointed a huge neon sign at it as to how awful it was, when they obviously had little to no intention of bringing Sam back from that bit of cowardice even if they did address the Dean part of it. So no I don't get it, and I didn't see much intention of bringing Sam back from it.

 

To me, this episode - with only it's vague references to the first part of the season - was an attempt to try to pull in tiny snippets of that first part of the season even if they didn't make sense, and say "See it all fits. Look at this payoff! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." when it didn't really fit, and they conveniently skipped over a bunch of important character assassination and other stuff that should have been addressed and fixed - like Kevin.

Agreed.  They messed with Sam and IMO didn't really try to show *why*.  In fact, it came off as Sam still thought he was right, not sorry at all, and for awhile he even seemed mad at Dean for being 'drug back in'.

So weird.

 

Especially since the screwing up they had Sam do seemed so out of character that I spent much of the first half of season 8 thinking that Sam's "flashbacks" were some sort of delusion and that Amelia was some made up fantasy, because actually Sam had gone crazy or something and that any moment we were going to learn what really happened with Sam.

 

Oh my gosh, YES!  I kept waiting, thinking "this will pay off, this isn't Sam, its a dream" etc.  And when it never did it made me even more frustrated for the assassination of Sam, because Sam would at least try to find Dean.  He's a good brother and a good person and he's loyal.

Then I wanted to go in and rewrite it for my brain: instead of hitting a dog, Sam was so distraught he got in a car accident and the whole Amelia thing and dog thing and not looking thing was all in his coma-brain.

I think I'm gonna go with that.  ;)

[thesupremediva1]

"Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you."

 

::UGLY CRIES LIKE CLAIRE DANES IN HOMELAND::

 

Dean Winchester, I love you. Jensen Ackles, you are a damn fine actor.

 

Jared was great in this ep too. All of terrible season 8 was worth it for that scene. Imagine the emotional payoff if they hadn't totally misdirected the whole season. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Had to get through this one to be finally done with Season 8.  Boy, am I ready to be done with Season 8.

• The little used-to-be-white church looks just like a little church I know.  The doors should have been red.  (There’s a reason for the red doors, but I can’t remember off the top of my head.)  Also though: how did they know that was consecrated ground?  Here’s a clue guys: churches are usually DE-consecrated when they are no longer active.  Pretty sure that run down building no longer had an active congregation.  Therefore, de-consecrated.
• I don’t think Sam’s blood would have ever worked anyway.  He wasn’t purified.  He didn’t do confession correctly.  First there’s the whole “Bless me Father for I have sinned” rhetoric he didn’t use and then there’s the…missing priest…which is kind of pretty much needed for absolution.  (He cannot absolve himself.)  Really, Show Writers, it’s not that hard to get a few sacraments right.
• Sam didn’t really need Dean to give him suggestions on for what to ask forgiveness.  That was just a way to remind us all of Sam’s mistakes.  Thank you, but not really, for hitting me over the head with that.  Oh, and Sam can’t be held responsible for “losing” his soul since Cas resurrected him without it, so it’s really Cas’ fault, IMO.  Or God’s, since he allowed it to happen.  But not Sam’s. 
• And now I want to know what Dean did to Penny Markle in the 6th grade.  That can’t even be funny.  The girl would have been 11 or 12.  Not cool, show.
• I think Marv wanted to get taken to Heaven. 
• Okay, I was against them closing the gates of Hell without knowing the full consequences, but now Dean just jumps on the “Closing Heaven” bandwagon without a second thought?  Oh Boy, the Stupid is strong in this episode.
• Dean does realize “sending the angels back to Heaven” would include Cas, right?  Does Cas realize this? 
• Zombie Sam didn’t say the incantation with the injection. 
• Pretty sure angels aren’t allowed to manhandle the prophets like that.
• Seriously, they didn’t learn from leaving Abaddon alone?  So Dean leaves Sam to deal with Crowley by himself and Sam walks out and leaves Crowley unchaperoned?  I’m not sure I can deal with the Stupid anymore.  I know the guys are smarter than that.
• I did get a laugh out of Rod and the bartender.  And watching Dean’s face: priceless.
• Wow.  Naomi was actually decent in the end.
• Told you not to trust the skeezy short dude.  P.S. I was so right about Marv wanting to go up to Heaven.
• Thought angels didn’t have souls.  If Marv took Cas’ grace, that still doesn’t give him a soul.
• Some serious shit at the end between Dean and Sam.  They both said some hard truths.  Unfortunately, all I heard at the end of the 'Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you' speech was the unspoken 'like you did with me' that's been beat into me all season.  So thanks for that shit to end on.
• I was actually a little surprised that Sam didn't go ahead and try to complete the trial anyway, knowing how many times they've already been resurrected/saved.

Edited July 17, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Sam's been saved before.

[Diane]

Ugh so glad to be done with this season. It was hard to get through.

[Dobian]

I was actually ready to declare the second half of this season a success.  And then came those last...five...minutes.  Talk about ending on a whimper.  The gates of Hell are still open, and Booger is in charge of Heaven.  Sam and Castiel are both damaged goods again.  A redeemed Crowley would have been interesting.  A show without demons would have been refreshing and allowed them to focus on new interesting villains and threats instead of always falling back on that tired trope.  Having all of the mains functioning at a hundred percent instead of spending many episodes trying to cure or fix them yet again would have been a relief.  Oh well, old ways die hard with writers I guess.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I was actually ready to declare the second half of this season a success.  And then came those last...five...minutes.  Talk about ending on a whimper.  The gates of Hell are still open, and Booger is in charge of Heaven.  Sam and Castiel are both damaged goods again.  A redeemed Crowley would have been interesting.  A show without demons would have been refreshing and allowed them to focus on new interesting villains and threats instead of always falling back on that tired trope.  Having all of the mains functioning at a hundred percent instead of spending many episodes trying to cure or fix them yet again would have been a relief.  Oh well, old ways die hard with writers I guess.

Heh, or old ways never die...whatever, right? ;)

[Dobian]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, or old ways never die...whatever, right? ;)

So more crappy nonsensical major story arc in season 9 then?  Meh, I'll just look forward to the monster of the week episodes then.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

So more crappy nonsensical major story arc in season 9 then?  Meh, I'll just look forward to the monster of the week episodes then.

Oh, um...probably shouldn't have said that. Now you have expectations...sorry.

[Dobian]

I stopped having expectations for shows like this when Smallville went off the rails after about season seven.  Or was it six?

[DittyDotDot]

I'm sorry, but I just...ugh, this episode! I really want to like it for what Mark Sheppard does, but the curing a demon thing, that makes no sense, and the whole speech about how there's nothing Dean would put in front of Sam, that makes me want to vomit, really color the episode for me.

Also, I think Curtis Armstrong is really good in this episode as well. I really like the work he and Amanda Tapping did together. I do believe Marvatron's storyline is the only one that makes any sense here. 

But seriously, Mark Sheppard really shines in this episode even if the storyline is stupid. The moment he asks how one begins to ask for forgiveness never fails to draw me in. And, it's freakin' Crowley, who I'm sure even when he was human was perfectly horrible! Gah, kudos show on almost selling me on having compassion for the King of Hades.

Abaddon kicking Crowley's ass and Castiel looking through personal ads does amuse me though.

S8, moving on...to...S9. Sigh. ;)

Edited September 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

My problem with this episode is what the hell  Sam was supposed to be saying in  his big speech to Dean. He's supposedly saying that  his confession was how he failed Dean yet he also says how Dean didn't think he could do it with him and had to turn to a vampire and an angel. I could accept Sam taking issue with Benny but not Cas. That really pissed me off.  Cas saved Dean from Hell and eventually went all TFW and helped the boys stop the Apocalypse. Cas made mistakes and bad choices but he did try to right his wrong or make amends  like taking on Sam's Hell memories.  So Sam being upset about Cas was non sensical at best and plain old jealousy at worst.

 I would have respected the writing more if Sam had said his confession was that he was straight up jealous of Cas and Benny. Or if he would have frakking APOLOGIZED to Dean for not looking for him which probably kept Dean more attached to Benny than he might have otherwise.   But instead they make DEAN essentially apologize to Sam for having  Cas as his best friend and not bothering to have Sam acknowledge that Dean was pretty fucked up when he got put of Purgatory. And making it worse with that way  barftastic romantic speech about never putting anyone in front of Sam. 

  It made NO sense but it did make for a compatible bookend for the strange start to s8.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I would have respected the writing more if Sam had said his confession was that he was straight up jealous of Cas and Benny.

To a certain degree, I think that what Sam is saying. I think Sam is jealous of Benny or jealous that Benny--a vampire--is the one person Dean says didn't let him down. I think Sam just wishes Dean could say that about him. And, I think he's also saying he's sorry for being such a fuck up that he didn't look for Dean, so Dean had to befriend a vampire in order to get himself out of Purgatory, instead of Sam getting him out. He's just saying it poorly because he's exhausted and fever addled due to whatever the trials are doing to him. He's a mess and all over the place, he's not thinking or speaking clearly, IMO.

I also think what he's saying about Cass goes back to S4 when Dean "sold" himself to the angels so "Sammy wouldn't have to" when Sam was all hopped up on demon blood and locked in the panic room. Dean turned to Cass--when he really wasn't an ally or friend--because Sam was so messed up at the time. And this season, Dean was praying to Cass for Sam even when Cass was clearly off the reservation.

I think all Sam's trying to say is he wishes he wasn't such a fuck up all the time so that Dean didn't have compromise himself by turning to something supernatural because of his fuck ups. But he's definitely saying it poorly.

I actually get more annoyed by Dean's little "there's nothing I would put in front of you" speech--it makes me want to vomit, then gouge my ears out, then vomit again! ;)

Edited September 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think all Sam's trying to say is he wishes he wasn't such a fuck up all the time so that Dean didn't have compromise himself by turning to something supernatural because of his fuck ups. But he's definitely saying it poorly.

 

Just for my own amusement based on your interpretation, I decided to rewatch the scene and read the dialogue and try to see it as you are because I think your interpretation is reasonable and logical but man, I just don't see it.  Nor did I get that from Jared's performance.
 

Quote

 

SAM: Look at him. Look at him! Look how close we are! Other people will die if I don't finish this!

DEAN: Think about it. Think about what we know, huh? Pulling souls from hell, curing demons, hell, ganking a Hellhound! We have enough knowledge on our side to turn the tide here. But I can't do it without you.

SAM: You can barely do it with me. I mean, you think I screw up everything I try. You think I need a chaperone, remember?

DEAN: Come on, man. That's not what I meant.

SAM: No, it's exactly what you meant. You want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I let you down. I can't do that again.

DEAN: Sam --

SAM: [beginning to cry] What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again? I mean, who are you gonna turn to next time instead of me? Another angel, another -- another vampire? Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just –

DEAN: Hold on, hold on! You seriously think that? Because none of it -- none of it -- is true. Listen, man, I know we've had our disagreements, okay? Hell, I know I've said some junk that set you back on your heels. But, Sammy...come on. I killed Benny to save you. I'm willing to let this bastard and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don't you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever! I need you to see that. I'm begging you.

 

The first bolded sentence I can see that as Sam saying he feels like he let down Dean. And then to me  it gets all flipped around in the very next sentence in italic bolded. To me it would have been more effective if Jared had played it much more softly and if the dialogue was different.

So between Jared's performance and the dialogue I just still come away with Sam still being angry and bitter towards Dean  more than sad and regretful or angry and bitter with himself. I didn't get out of it that Sam was apologizing to Dean when it wasn't brought up at all.

I don't understand at all why Dean even had to say what he said.   I also fault Jensen's performance there too. It was too much and overwrought for Jensen which he rarely does IMO.  My head!canon is that Jensen was like WTF am I saying this for so he just spat it out LOL.

Just curious what you hate about it @DITTYDOTDOT

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Just curious what you hate about it @DITTYDOTDOT

Mostly, it's because it's written like some sort of sappy soap opera rather than a natural conversation between two grown-ass men who have been through this shit more times than I can count. It's just too corny and sappy and makes me want to puke.

But also, it's just plain stupid. IMO, the scene is supposed to be about Sam owning up for his failing Dean and what Dean is saying has nothing to do with what Sam is saying, IMO. It feels like they included it only so Dean could also get his quota of "feels" in, as well. Blech!!!

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So between Jared's performance and the dialogue I just still come away with Sam still being angry and bitter towards Dean  more than sad and regretful or angry and bitter with himself. I didn't get out of it that Sam was apologizing to Dean when it wasn't brought up at all.

Well, I he didn't outright say, "I'm sorry," but I think that was what he was trying to convey from his fever-addled mind. However, I think Sam is kind of angry and bitter at Dean, in a way. I think Sam feels like no matter what he does, Dean will never truly forgive Sam for all his various fuck ups and and apparently is holding on to things Sam didn't even do. So, yeah, I think he is a bit angry and bitter towards Dean, but I just don't think that means he can't be regretful and angry at himself at the same time. I just find that we humans are capable of many emotions at one time, sometimes even conflicting ones, and Sam is seriously messed up and being pushed to his limits right then, so... .

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Mostly, it's because it's written like some sort of sappy soap opera rather than a natural conversation between two grown-ass men who have been through this shit more times than I can count. It's just too corny and sappy and makes me want to puke.

But also, it's just plain stupid. IMO, the scene is supposed to be about Sam owning up for his failing Dean and what Dean is saying has nothing to do with what Sam is saying, IMO. It feels like they included it only so Dean could also get his quota of "feels" in, as well. Blech!!!

Well, I he didn't outright say, "I'm sorry," but I think that was what he was trying to convey from his fever-addled mind. However, I think Sam is kind of angry and bitter at Dean, in a way. I think Sam feels like no matter what he does, Dean will never truly forgive Sam for all his various fuck ups and and apparently is holding on to things Sam didn't even do. So, yeah, I think he is a bit angry and bitter towards Dean, but I just don't think that means he can't be regretful and angry at himself at the same time. I just find that we humans are capable of many emotions at one time, sometimes even conflicting ones, and Sam is seriously messed up and being pushed to his limits right then, so... .

Oh sure human beings are able to be many things at one time. 

I thought that with Dean's unnecessary explaining his side of things was meant to keep Dean on the defensive more than just about his quota of feels. I just wish I could have bought what they were trying to sell there.

Do you think it's Sam's opinion that Dean never forgave/will never forgive Sam? Or that you think Dean actually has not forgiven him?

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think it's Sam's opinion that Dean never forgave/will never forgive Sam? Or that you think Dean actually has not forgiven him?

Oh no, I think that's what Sam is thinking. Personally, I think Dean long forgave Sam, but since he was so ready with things for Sam to confess--and even things Sam didn't do--I think Sam thought Dean has been silently holding on to these things all these years. But I think a lot of that goes to Sam's state of mind right then. He's exhausted and just can't see the situation clearly. He's fixating on a few comments from Dean and letting that anger at himself be directed at Dean rather than seeing the whole picture. That's my take-away, anyway.

Edited September 14, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I gotcha. Thanks for expanding on that. I'll think more about your interpretation :)

[bettername2come]

He tried to kill Jody! The bastard! He's gone too far! Jody's gone for a season and a half and this is what she comes back for? I like that Kevin hid the demon tablet under a billboard of the devil. It's smart. And about damn time, they gave him a key to the bunker. Glad he went for the liquor while he was there. I love that he told off Dean. Sam just seems so offended when Crowley resorts to biting. I wish they could have cured Crowley. I think that could've been interesting. Great acting by Jared and Jensen in the church at the end. I like the turning Castiel human plot twist. The angels falling to earth is a beautiful visual.

[Hanahope]

This season just seemed very disjointed.  The overall story arc was very unsatisfactory and didn't make sense in the end.  I can't believe the boys wouldn't consider that whoever did the trials might die.  Not like that hasn't happened to them before.

And so what happens to Sam now?  He was changing or dying before doing the third trial, does that just stop?

And I agree that I don't think he was doing the trial right anyway, no priest to confess to for sure.

And trusting Meta?  They should know better.

And even the Kevin story didn't make a lot of sense.  He smart one moment and dumb the next.

at least the set up to next season looks interesting.

[Catfi9ht]

Sigh. So I finished this season. I have no idea how the entertainment industry works so I have no idea how writers are chosen to continue shows after the original show runner leaves. However, I believe season 8 is what happens when you ask someone to write a show they're not a fan of. At least, I think I remember reading a quote from Carver somewhere about he doesn't like the horror genre which is reflected in his writing and direction the show has taken, I think.

Anyway, feel free to correct me if I totally made up that quote from Carver. I blame it on season 8 turning my brain to mush; everything is starting to blend together.

[Iju]

On 4/13/2015 at 11:18 PM, GirlyGeek said:

Anyway, to me the 'how am I ever going to be as important or trusted as Cas or Benny' whine from Sam just didn't ring true to me at all.

 

idk about cass but dean just said to sam this season that benny was a better brother than he ever was. i think that would cut deep to him enough for him to feel something about that.

--------------

crowley being human was sooooo creepy, but to be fair it was the actor's fault! he's so good playing this character, i'm almost jealous.

dean really gave sam a what for this season so i don't see how he can't be surprised that sam's biggest confession was what it was. again, as i said way back, the complexities of sam could have been explored in that he was guilty or angry at himself that he couldn't find dean when he disappeared. and that was the biggest let down of all.

on dean's side, i'm not saying i don't understand his feelings. if i was kidnapped and i come back and find out my family didn't try looking for me no matter what legit reasons, it would hurt me bad. but i would have to come to realise that they still love me and have loved me as they always has. they just didn't have any clues. that wouldn't heal my instantly, but instead of sam healing from his dumb boring "normal" life, that journey could have been dean healing from that instead. but no we write dean getting anrgy constantly bringing up sam leaving him. say it's all in character as well, it's still a chance for dean to mature and move on as a new person. but as of now for me, the only other POV he can see other than himself is his father's. 

all that aside, this was probably the best season finale to me in a long time. it was SUPER cliffhangy, SUPER chaotic, SUPER hopeless, just as S4 was. how on earth is this going to get back to normal. and sicky sam has always made my heart thump with such pain, must be my own personal feelings as an older sibling. i don't only want sam to get better i want it to be by the help of people he loves than him handling his own demons. i am so very curious on what will they do to the angels and sam.

[The Companion]

Well, we have finally limped past the finish line on Season 8. The final visual and set up were great (though I don't dare get my hopes up) but the rest of tjr episode was a mess in the way much of Season 8 was. The writers never quite pull it all together. From the nonsensical concept that Sam and Dean have somehow failed to consider Sam would not survive (where have they been?) to the ridiculous dialogue, this episode failed two characters I love, in my opinion. I think the issues with this episode have been very well covered, and I am not going to offer any new insight except to say I am afraid I am too cynical to ascribe some deep meaning here. I think it is poor show management. I can't even say that they have just changed the characters, because Sam and Dean aren't even internally consistent during the season.

While I didn't love the concept of demon rehab, I did think Mark Sheppard did a grear job. As much as I dislike the character of Crowley, I like the actor and thought he really dug his teeth into the material.  

I am happy to close the door on this season. I do think the second half introduced some interesting concepts (though they mostly didn't go anywhere), but it ultimately ends up being largely for nothing.