S02.E02: Ad Astra Per Aspera

[marceline]

21 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Is that really how it works?  Turn down our plea offer and we will tack on more charges that weren’t even discussed before?

Pretty much. The point of a plea is to save everyone the trouble of a trial. Once you turn down a plea, the prosecutors get to charge you as they see fit. Every option gets put back on the table because now they have a trial to win.

 

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, marceline said:

Pretty much. The point of a plea is to save everyone the trouble of a trial. Once you turn down a plea, the prosecutors get to charge you as they see fit. Every option gets put back on the table because now they have a trial to win.

 

 

[magdalene]

Another good episode. I always enjoy these courtroom episodes in Star Trek. Bonus is I didn't predict how she was going to be saved.

[PurpleTentacle]

Measure of a man was written by somebody with extensive knowledge of military law and court proceedings. This was clearly not.

There were good parts, but the episode could have been great if the court proceedings weren't a complete clown show. Sad, really.

The whole Asylum thing doesn't make a lick of sense. These writers don't know the difference between Star Fleet and the Federation, do they? That's like saying "somebody fleeing from persecution may seek asylum in the US military." Hell they don't even seem to know what Asylum is. It's certainly not "you can lie about your youself, break a bunch of laws and rise up throught the ranks in the military."

I also don't love that the writers seem to want to cram current day problems into the federation, in general. Star Trek has always worked with alegory for modern problems, but the federation was mostly good, except for some insane admirals of the week. Where you could find the alegories for our modern problems was with alien races, not in the federation.

Most importantly I'm frustrated with this whole storyline. We know it doesn't go anywhere substancial. The ban on genetic augementation is still around in the 24th century. (btw. maybe somebody there should have asked the Illyrian's for help, considering how big a failure rate genetic augmentations had like a 100 years after Una's trial) So what's the point here? Couldn't we have done this in a show set after ST:Picard?

 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 6/22/2023 at 3:24 PM, starri said:

I love a good Star Trek courtroom drama. 

Then you hated this episode? :D

23 hours ago, historylover820 said:

While I don't like just dour and gloom and doom, I like a nuanced version of the Federation -- it has problems, prejudices, and it's run by flawed humans and flawed aliens. 2254 is only 200 years away from us. That's not all that long.

I don't like it. Because that is literally every other scifi, with varying shades of gray. Star Trek used to be aspirational. Sure there were flaws in the Federation, but not something as massive as this one.

[wanderingstar]

Not since Annalise Keating have I loved a fictional defense lawyer so much. Neera is amazing! It helps that she's played by the awesome Yetide Badaki. I like the friendship between Neera and Una. I want to see more of it. 

This episode brought to mind the DS9 episode "Doctor Bashir, I Presume," where we learn that Bashir is genetically modified, though this episode is about someone from a society that genetically modifies their people. It makes sense that Starfleet and the Federation would finally have to grapple with its banning of elective genetic modification. To quote one recapper, discrimination flies in the face of everything the Federation is supposed to stand for. Una's testimony about facing discrimination and her family going to another city because they could pass poignantly underscored the result of the the Federation's discriminatory policy. I'm curious to see if this or any other new ST show addresses this issue again.

Spock saying "I'm sorry you had to witness that outburst" to Ortegas and M'Benga was hilarious. I laughed right along with them.

I'm so glad this show is back!

Edited June 24, 2023 by wanderingstar

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, wanderingstar said:

It makes sense that Starfleet and the Federation would finally have to grapple with its banning of elective genetic modification.

Finally, a 100 years before "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" happened?

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, wanderingstar said:

Spock saying "I'm sorry you had to witness that outburst" to Ortegas and M'Benga was hilarious. I laughed right along with them.

 

An old joke, but a good one!

Cloning isn't simple. You can clone someone using a transporter, apparently. Even if it 'only happens by accident' it could clearly be engineered easily. You could clone someone because it is your family tradition to always have every grandpappy look the same. You could clone a baby because you are devastated that the child died. You could clone someone to provide a heart transplant for a genetically damaged brother or sister. or even a kidney, but what does that say about the second child and to the second child? You could clone someone to be raised and harvested to replace your own organs. You could clone someone because they are special, and so the worlds can always have an Einstein. You could creepily clone someone so you would have a basement full of your childhood sweetheart, who rejected you. I think different reactions for different situations are appropriate.

It seems that starfleet usually takes the stance that you get one life, that life is precious, and it is your job to nuture and develop it so it lasts as long as it will last, and is a unique and precious organism.

I'm not sure the Federation should necessarily take the same stance, or that individual planets wouldn't have different ideas.

The genetic enhancement makes sense if you are afraid that it will take over the basic race and that only the 1 percent who can afford it will live long and prosper in society, so I get the initial issues and the fear that a lot of people would have about disrupting society. Of course, sometimes you would have persecution, which is wrong on many levels.

I'm just not sure this is getting to the meat of these issues, while it may be solving it for Una. Una is functioning as a good star fleet officer and shows no indication of endangering the balance of society, so it really is a non issue.

[QuantumMechanic]

54 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The genetic enhancement makes sense if you are afraid that it will take over the basic race and that only the 1 percent who can afford it will live long and prosper in society, so I get the initial issues and the fear that a lot of people would have about disrupting society.

There's also the issue of what enhancements might actually do.  Una's lawyer was arguing that genes don't affect how people act, but that's not necessarily true.  What if some enhancement greatly increases the chances that those augments are violent?  Seems like that would be pretty bad especially if those same enhancements give extra strength or intelligence.

There are also arguments akin to why performance-enhancing drugs are banned in sports today.  If you don't ban them you are basically forcing everyone in the sport to take them or have no chance of being able to compete.

[marinw]

The doping in sports analogy is an excellent one @QuantumMechanic

[Sandman]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:32 AM, Affogato said:

The genetic enhancement makes sense if you are afraid that it will take over the basic race and that only the 1 percent who can afford it will live long and prosper in society, so I get the initial issues and the fear that a lot of people would have about disrupting society.

I still don’t understand how something so expensive and physically invasive as genetic modification could be a widespread cultural practice. Is Illyrian society hugely stratified? At first I thought (given Una’s ability to adapt to — or destroy? — the pathogen in the episode “Ghosts of Illyria”) that Illyrians had the ability to mutate spontaneously to respond to environmental or personal threats (… what? I know it doesn’t make any sense, but does it makes any less sense than, say, empathic healing? And Una’s ability to heal seems almost Wolverine-esque anyway.)

Maybe the Illyrians were invited to join the Federation because they have the best universal single-payer health care system in the universe?

Edited June 30, 2023 by Sandman

[Sandman]

23 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

What if some enhancement greatly increases the chances that those augments are violent?  Seems like that would be pretty bad especially if those same enhancements give extra strength or intelligence.

I think “Space Seed” at least implied, if it did not state explicitly, that the Eugenics Wars happened in part because Khan and his merry band of flash-frozen Übermenschen united physical enhancement and increased intelligence with ambition and aggression. 

I must say I did enjoy Spock’s testimony as to Una’s character in particular; framing it as illogical for Starfleet to punish itself by the loss of Una’s contribution was piece of argument that seemed to me worthy of the OG Spock — at once ingenious and, in its way, kind of sweet (without overt emotional display).

Edited June 24, 2023 by Sandman

[Guest]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:34 AM, Good Queen Jane said:

You could say that Una was seeking asylum from Starfleet to protect her from the Federation. It's kind of like the US military accepting undocumented immigrants into military service. As long as they are part of the military, they can't be deported. That would also explain why Una was returned to her position on the Enterprise. As long as she is part of Starfleet, she is protected from prosecution. 

This really does make a lot of sense. Starfleet predates the Federation and, while it has expanded beyond just Earth, it is still largely Earth-based. Many planets within the Federation operate their own Starfleet like agencies. The Federation is more closely tied to Starfleet but they are still separate entities. 

On 6/22/2023 at 6:37 PM, rtms77 said:

Why is it that what happened on earth the rule of law in the Federation  and how did other aliens get in when they clearly used such things to much better outcomes? Why is this an issue with Vulcans etc? Only humans and earth born should be bothered with this.

I could see it happening. All the founding countries probably had certain laws they insisted on. I also doubt that Earth would have been the only planet who had a negative history with eugenics. 

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

The genetic enhancement makes sense if you are afraid that it will take over the basic race

That part doesn't actually make that much sense. Also reminds me of something annoying in the episode, but that I forgot over all that Asylum-nonsense: These writers don't understand evolution! It's infuriating.

1 hour ago, QuantumMechanic said:

There are also arguments akin to why performance-enhancing drugs are banned in sports today.  If you don't ban them you are basically forcing everyone in the sport to take them or have no chance of being able to compete.

And then there is the argument that everybody in high level sports has to take performance-enhancing drugs to be able to compete anyway and allowing them would make it safer, due to better monitoring and not trying to sweep it under the rug if something goes wrong.

Back allay gene editing is probably going to be more problematic than going to a hospital. And you know it's happening, with technology that advanced. (also we know it is from the example of Bashir)

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I still don’t understand how something so expensive and physically invasive as genetic modification could be a widespread cultural practice.

It's not even that expensive today. At least not the actual procedure. Of course pharma companies are taking an arm and a leg for it, but they even do that for something as easy to produce as insulin and for profit companies don't exist in the federation anymore.

With a fetus it's also not very invasive.

14 minutes ago, Dani said:

Many planets within the Federation operate their own Starfleet like agencies.

They do? Which ones?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

They do? Which ones?

A lot of the big ones. The Klingons may be willing to join the Federation but they’re certainly not going to be willing to give up their fleet. Even Vulcan, which helped found the Federation, doesn’t really claim Starfleet and has their own interests.  Although, as far as I know, it’s never been explicitly outlined. 

There doesn’t appear to be any requirement for planets to give up their own exploration and military organization when they join the Federation. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Neera was an amazing attorney. She should get her own Law & Order spinoff, ha ha. And she might be the second best-dressed woman in space, right behind Chrisjen Avasarala.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

These writers don't understand evolution! It's infuriating.

This is a franchise which had the crew of the Enterprise-D devolve into a Neanderthal, a spider, and some sort of Klingon monster (plus had Spot transform into a lizard) before making a miraculous recovery. Oh, and there was that VOY episode where Paris and Janeway transformed into some sort of salamander and had kids.

5 hours ago, Sandman said:

I think “Space Seed” at least implied, if it did not state explicitly, that the Eugenics Wars happened in part because Khan and his merry band of flash-frozen Übermenschen united physical enhancement and increased intelligence with ambition and aggression. 

That was the exact argument that came up in the DS9 episode - if you create someone with a superior mind and body, you'd probably create superior ambition as well.  Even if it's to fix certain problems (Bashir had developmental issues as a child), a lot of parents would go for exceptional instead of just average. 

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

The Klingons may be willing to join the Federation but they’re certainly not going to be willing to give up their fleet.

The Klingon Empire is not part of the federation.

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Even Vulcan, which helped found the Federation, doesn’t really claim Starfleet and has their own interests.

Where did you get that idea? The Vulcans are very much part of Starfleet. We had three Vulcans in Starfleet in this episode.

7 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

This is a franchise which had the crew of the Enterprise-D devolve into a Neanderthal, a spider, and some sort of Klingon monster (plus had Spot transform into a lizard) before making a miraculous recovery. Oh, and there was that VOY episode where Paris and Janeway transformed into some sort of salamander and had kids.

Yes and all that was infuriating too. Those episodes are widely regarded as amoung the worst of their respective shows.

[paigow]

April predates Pike, Kirk & Picard as Prime Guideline Breaker... Which makes Janeway a more infuriating outlier...  Picard broke it to save only Wesley from the AI Lawgiver... Janeway could have saved her crew & Maquis survivors.

 

 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The Klingon Empire is not part of the federation.

There is debate about that. There have been lines that it will/did happen at some point but who knows how much has been retconned or impacted by changing timelines. It’s hard to keep it straight or know what is actually canon considering the franchise itself doesn’t seem to care that much. 

14 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Where did you get that idea?

From watching the shows. 

14 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The Vulcans are very much part of Starfleet. We had three Vulcans in Starfleet in this episode.

My interpretation of what I have watched is that there is a distinction between members of a species being part of Starfleet and the planet being a part of Starfleet. In part due to the Vulcan’s very blatant feelings of superiority towards human’s and Starfleet.

When the Federation was formed, I does not appear that Vulcan chose to give up their existing scientific, exploration or military systems in favor of Starfleet although they clearly do maintain a presence within Starfleet. We saw on Disco that a Vulcan joining Starfleet was controversial. Throughout Trek, Vulcan has had its own interests that often run contradictory to Starfleet’s interests. 

So I don’t have a problem with Starfleet giving Una asylum from the Federation. Largely because I also wouldn’t find it weird is Vulcan gave someone asylum from Starfleet. 

[tkc]

I quite enjoyed this episode, with all of its classic Star Trek story elements:

• bureaucratic Starfleet high muckety-mucks who make life difficult for our merry crew
• brilliant lawyer who actually uses physical law books à la Samuel T. Cogley, attorney-at-law (TOS: Court Martial)
• themes that touch on current affairs, both directly and obliquely
• inspirational speeches about justice, and the high ideals of Starfleet and the Federation
• shows of genuine friendship and camaraderie among the Enterprise crew
• ...and an A-B-A story arc! (Una is Number One, Una gets in trouble, Una is back to being Number One)

Now that's Trek!  :)

PS: However, can someone remind La'an that she shouldn't be calling the XO "Chief", as she does at the end of the episode?  😀

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Prime Guideline

Heh. 

[paigow]

The destruction of Praxis in Star Trek VI initiated the new era of co-operation between The Klingon Empire and The Federation. The Khitomer Accord was the peace treaty that old Duras and his Romulan conspirators framed Moog for violating. Klingons and Romulans were permitted to send Ambassadors to Federation meetings, but they were not Members

 

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by paigow

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

The destruction of Praxis in Star Trek VI initiated the new era of co-operation between The Klingon Empire and The Federation. The Khitomer Accord was the peace treaty that old Duras and his Romulan conspirators framed Moog for violating. Klingons and Romulans were permitted to send Ambassadors to Federation meetings, but they were not Members

There is so much in Star Trek that is impossible to resolve. As a result, I consider all canon to be pretty flexible. Which given the amount of time the franchise spans there is room for a lot of changes. There was a line in Next Gen that says they joined and a line in Enterprise where Archer is told about what the Federation will be and the Klingons were mentioned. 🤷‍♀️Make of it what you will. 

It all makes up a my messy mental picture of what this universe is and based on that the resolution of the episode works for me. 

[paigow]

10 hours ago, tkc said:

PS: However, can someone remind La'an that she shouldn't be calling the XO "Chief" 😀

Maybe she knows that the Riley family tree shares roots with  

[starri]

19 hours ago, Dani said:

Even Vulcan, which helped found the Federation, doesn’t really claim Starfleet and has their own interests.

Disco established that the Vulcans have their own uniformed exploratory service. the Vulcan Expeditionary Group.  Michael wanted to join, but Sarek could only convince them to take Spock, who ultimately turned it down to go to Starfleet Academy.  

We've also seen their ships in Lower Decks, so they continue to exist at least until the 2380s or so.

[marinw]

A blanket ban of Genetic Augmentation (and maybe cloning) may have inhibited medical treatments in ways that aren't immediately obvious. Medicine in the 23-25th Centuries is obviously much more advanced that in our own era. Yet if you aren't allowed to  genetically modify anyone or clone any body parts (except in the case of several birth defects) that could have spinoff effects: Perhaps that is why Pike didn't have a better quality of life in "The Menagerie", or why Picard has an artificial heart instead of a real one (I'm handwaving that no suitable hearts for a transplant were available at the time or that heart transplants are no longer a thing for some reason). Or why Worf went through a risky surgery to cure his spinal cord injury. The list goes on.

It's never the technology, it's how it's used. YMMV.

Edited June 25, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

8 hours ago, marinw said:

Perhaps that is why Pike didn't have a better quality of life in "The Menagerie"

Thanks to ridiculous retconning of Archer obtaining Holodeck Technology, TOS!Spock did not need to kidnap Pike... just lock him in a holosuite..

Edited June 26, 2023 by paigow

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Thanks to ridiculous retconning of Archer obtaining Holodeck Technolgy, TOS!Spock did not need to kidnap Pike... just lock him in a holosuite..

He still wouldn't be able to talk or move in a holodeck, and without the Talosian mind tricks he'd never be able to simulate it.  Sure, it might be more enjoyable than just staring out a window, but it's hardly a cure-all. 

The other question is why Pike didn't just ask for euthanasia or include a DNR in his file.  As far as he knows there's no happy ending coming, just the nightmare of being trapped in a ruined body with no realistic chance of getting healed.

[ML89]

I did like that the Starfleet code is possibly a smaller book than the US Internal Revenue Code…and that publishing still exists.

I wanted Pike to say something along the lines of not realizing how clever he was to offer asylum. I also wanted to know what exactly the two counts of sedition were for, and how Pike’s girlfriend as the prosecutor wasn’t a huge conflict of interest, along with the chief prosecutor’s relationship with Spock and his unVulcan-like glee in wanting to go after Pike next.

Loved defense counsel Neera, her asssistant, and her great skills and snazzy wardrobe but Riley is just lucky she got the Earl Warren version of Starfleet court and not the Rehnquist version. Also, as others above have noted, why is the Federation basically being run by human dictates?

 

[marinw]

2 hours ago, baldryanr said:

The other question is why Pike didn't just ask for euthanasia or include a DNR in his file.  As far as he knows there's no happy ending coming, just the nightmare of being trapped in a ruined body with no realistic chance of getting healed.

My question as well. As I said upthread, law in this era is different than our laws. Starfleet/The Federation may take the "All life is scared" approach and any DNR or Living Will has no legal bearing.

The "Menagerie" has been criticized for being very abelist on its views that Pike could not have a meaningful life after such serious injuries. To which I reply "Its was the 1960's! Attitudes were Different!" In creating the SNW canon these evolving views put the SNW writers in a potentially murky area about living with disabilities, so Pike isn't going to get Neera The Awesome Civil Rights Lawyer to draw up a super air-tight living will.(As far as we know) I realize that this is a super sensitive area, so a huge YMMV here.

Edited June 25, 2023 by marinw

[historylover820]

4 hours ago, ML89 said:

I wanted Pike to say something along the lines of not realizing how clever he was to offer asylum. I also wanted to know what exactly the two counts of sedition were for, and how Pike’s girlfriend as the prosecutor wasn’t a huge conflict of interest, along with the chief prosecutor’s relationship with Spock and his unVulcan-like glee in wanting to go after Pike next.
 

 

Well, in the TOS episode, Court Martial, Kirk's prosecutor was a former girlfriend of his. Now, there's a conflict of interest.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, historylover820 said:

Well, in the TOS episode, Court Martial, Kirk's prosecutor was a former girlfriend of his. 

The population segment labelled Not Former Girlfriend is very small...

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:54 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Measure of a man was written by somebody with extensive knowledge of military law and court proceedings. This was clearly not.

There were good parts, but the episode could have been great if the court proceedings weren't a complete clown show. Sad, really.

The whole Asylum thing doesn't make a lick of sense. These writers don't know the difference between Star Fleet and the Federation, do they? That's like saying "somebody fleeing from persecution may seek asylum in the US military." Hell they don't even seem to know what Asylum is. It's certainly not "you can lie about your youself, break a bunch of laws and rise up throught the ranks in the military."

I also don't love that the writers seem to want to cram current day problems into the federation, in general. Star Trek has always worked with alegory for modern problems, but the federation was mostly good, except for some insane admirals of the week. Where you could find the alegories for our modern problems was with alien races, not in the federation.

Most importantly I'm frustrated with this whole storyline. We know it doesn't go anywhere substancial. The ban on genetic augementation is still around in the 24th century. (btw. maybe somebody there should have asked the Illyrian's for help, considering how big a failure rate genetic augmentations had like a 100 years after Una's trial) So what's the point here? Couldn't we have done this in a show set after ST:Picard?

 

The writer of Measure of a Man, Melissa Snodgrass, was a lawyer prior to becoming a sci-fi writer according to what I see on the Internet, but I don't see anything about her having extensive knowledge of military law from a quick scan of what came up in a Google search. Do you know about her background of military law, or just extrapolate that she had one because the episode was significantly tighter than most in the way of courtroom drama?

All of Starfleet is part of the Federation. Neera's argument is that Una was seeking asylum from persecution when she confided in Pike her genetic modifications, and that Pike granted it. The analogy would be someone fleeing persecution turning themselves in to an naval base and asking for refuge there. But like all analogies, it has limits. In this particular case, Starfleet rules apparently allow for a captain to grant asylum to refugees from persecution in a way that (say) a captain of a U.S. Navy ship cannot. At best (I believe, haven't done and won't do any research on the point), a naval captain could say "I'll take you to civilian authorities who will make that decision."

If this were a better episode, the Vulcan prosecutor would have had the chance to show the "give her asylum because she was fleeing prosecution" argument for the sophistry it is, and point out that the "request for asylum" envisioned by the rules is something completely different from lying about your genetic modifications and only coming clean about it when your guilty conscience got to be too much, that there are additional steps needed to seek asylum, that even if one were to buy the "asylum" argument, it doesn't call for amnesty for crimes committed before or while pursuing asylum, etc. etc. Or at least, the court would acknowledge it for sophistry and say "But we're going to make this exception because we can" as opposed to treating it like an actual winning argument.

You recognize that Star Trek has always "worked with allegories for modern problems," but then you don't love that the writers want "to cram current day problems into the federation." I don't get it. 

The Federation remains "mostly good." It just has taken a stand against genetic modification that, as applied to Una, seems extreme and counterproductive. As the episode points out, Una didn't ask to be genetically modified. None of her genetic modifications, as far as we know, pose a danger to her crew or Starfleet in general. There really is no reason to stop her from serving in Starfleet other than Starfleet established a blanket rule against genetic modification. The episode seems to concede that some sort of rule is called for because of the Eugenics Wars and the possibilities that evokes. So the point the episode is making to me is where do you find the balance between obeying the rules and the greater good? I enjoyed the episode overall, but a better version would have allowed the "strict obedience to the rules, no exceptions" view to have a fair say.

I also don't get the point about a plotline needing to go "anywhere substantial" or whether a plot could be done in a different time frame. Almost by definition, most any plot could be adapted to most any show. And some problems are not going to be solved in 100 years, or 1,000 or ever. Even if in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" they had realized at that point that it's stupid to drum someone out of Starfleet just because of their genes as opposed to their behavior/character, there would still be the tension over that issue and the larger issue of when is it OK to tolerate breaking the law for ends ranging from noble to selfish.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Affogato]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:07 PM, marinw said:

My question as well. As I said upthread, law in this era is different than our laws. Starfleet/The Federation may take the "All life is scared" approach and any DNR or Living Will has no legal bearing.

The "Menagerie" has been criticized for being very abelist on its views that Pike could not have a meaningful life after such serious injuries. To which I reply "Its was the 1960's! Attitudes were Different!" In creating the SNW canon these evolving views put the SNW writers in a potentially murky area about living with disabilities, so Pike isn't going to get Neera The Awesome Civil Rights Lawyer to draw up a super air-tight living will.(As far as we know) I realize that this is a super sensitive area, so a huge YMMV here.

In fairness to Star Trek  and the sixties in general Pike's predicament was carefully designed to be extremely limiting, not just physically but in terms of communication. Pike would obviously abhor such a life and would advocate for a different life, learning about an advance alien culture and having the use of his limbs while doing so, and this is pretty consistant with this Pike.

Pike didn't want to die, necessarily, he wanted to seek out new life and new civilizations. Spock helped. In some ways it is the opposite of the attitude that Pike's life was over, while in fact he was able to make a new beginning.

The woman, I forget her name, who was put together incorrectly, that would be more of a ableist issue, but it was again presented as her  choice.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Affogato

[marinw]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

The woman, I forget her name,

Vina

[historylover820]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

The population segment labelled Not Former Girlfriend is very small...

Yep

[Guest]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:25 AM, baldryanr said:

He still wouldn't be able to talk or move in a holodeck, and without the Talosian mind tricks he'd never be able to simulate it.  Sure, it might be more enjoyable than just staring out a window, but it's hardly a cure-all. 

The other question is why Pike didn't just ask for euthanasia or include a DNR in his file.  As far as he knows there's no happy ending coming, just the nightmare of being trapped in a ruined body with no realistic chance of getting healed.

Is there any reason to think that he doesn’t know that he ends up on Talos IV? 

I hope that plot is left in the rear view after the season one finale. The specifics of Pike’s condition are too tied to the medical knowledge at the time. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Dani said:

Is there any reason to think that he doesn’t know that he ends up on Talos IV? 

I hope that plot is left in the rear view after the season one finale. The specifics of Pike’s condition are too tied to the medical knowledge at the time. 

I don't think that the flashes of the future that we were shown him seeing include his end on Talos IV, and he has never said or done anything to suggest that he knows his ultimate end will be on Talos IV. 

I don't see it likely that he will not have in the back of his mind that he is doomed. How could he?

[dovegrey]

42 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that the flashes of the future that we were shown him seeing include his end on Talos IV, and he has never said or done anything to suggest that he knows his ultimate end will be on Talos IV. 

I don't see it likely that he will not have in the back of his mind that he is doomed. How could he?

Or, really, that he’s doomed at a specific point in time and that Kirk inherits Pike’s Enterprise. If you know you’re not going to die or destroy the ship, that has to be an ongoing mindfuck during critical situations, and, IMO, one of the most compelling elements that could/should come out of Pike knowing his future for these next several years. Does he become reckless? Does he become paralysed with fear of accidentally changing the future, like in the season one finale? Does he actually accidentally change the timeline because of what he knows and how that affects his actions? I’d like to move on from the angst without ignoring that he knows.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that the flashes of the future that we were shown him seeing include his end on Talos IV, and he has never said or done anything to suggest that he knows his ultimate end will be on Talos IV. 

I don't see it likely that he will not have in the back of his mind that he is doomed. How could he?

Perhaps he is not a 'glass is half empty' person. Seriously, Star Trek is developed on humanist principles and Pike has shown himself to be someone who makes the most of himself in a bad situation, so I expect he will try to get as much experience and do as much good and host as many starship bbqs as he can.  Knowing, beyond a doubt, what is going to happen does remove a lot of the angst and avoidance from the situation, and must be somewhat calming.

It is possible that he left a letter, to be delivered to Spock in case something happened, and that letter might mention Talos 4.

[marinw]

So in "The Menagerie" what was Pike blinking no to? No to being alive? Or no to going to Talos 4?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that the flashes of the future that we were shown him seeing include his end on Talos IV, and he has never said or done anything to suggest that he knows his ultimate end will be on Talos IV. 

We didn’t see it but we already know that he knows more than we saw. Otherwise he could never know the names of the cadets he saved. 

4 hours ago, dovegrey said:

Or, really, that he’s doomed at a specific point in time and that Kirk inherits Pike’s Enterprise. If you know you’re not going to die or destroy the ship, that has to be an ongoing mindfuck during critical situations, and, IMO, one of the most compelling elements that could/should come out of Pike knowing his future for these next several years. Does he become reckless? Does he become paralysed with fear of accidentally changing the future, like in the season one finale? Does he actually accidentally change the timeline because of what he knows and how that affects his actions? I’d like to move on from the angst without ignoring that he knows.

This is exactly what I don’t want the show to do. I also don’t think it would be consistent with his personality. He certainly didn’t seem to impact is reaction to Una. I could possibly see him being hesitant to but Spock in jeopardy. 

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, marinw said:

So in "The Menagerie" what was Pike blinking no to? No to being alive? Or no to going to Talos 4?

He was blinking at Spock... I could say flashing Spock, but that is open to misinterpretation.... 

[dovegrey]

7 minutes ago, Dani said:

This is exactly what I don’t want the show to do. I also don’t think it would be consistent with his personality. He certainly didn’t seem to impact is reaction to Una. I could possibly see him being hesitant to but Spock in jeopardy. 

I don't see it as having to do with his personality. He knows how he "dies," he now knows what is supposed to happen to his Enterprise, and he's human. He also now knows that his choices can change what happens to him, others he knows, and even the entire Federation. I see an interesting and unique character arc here, built off the S1 season finale, where Pike adamantly needs to make sure that he suffers his own worst possible fate, and he has, what, 6 years to mess that up before it happens? The exact thing I don't want the show to do is ignore that Pike now knows his future is the best possible outcome for everyone else but now also knows that his actions can change it; it's not immutable. I wouldn't want it to consume the series or become the focal point, but to me, it doesn't make any psychological or thematic sense for a person to be unaffected by such a complex burden.

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

The exact thing I don't want the show to do is ignore that Pike now knows his future is the best possible outcome for everyone else but now also knows that his actions can change it; it's not immutable. I wouldn't want it to consume the series or become the focal point, but to me, it doesn't make any psychological or thematic sense for a person to be unaffected by such a complex burden.

The show could venture into The Edge Of Tomorrow territory with Pike granted intermittent opportunities to relive the accident and retain helpful information that could save himself AND Spock... 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dovegrey said:

I don't see it as having to do with his personality. He knows how he "dies," he now knows what is supposed to happen to his Enterprise, and he's human. He also now knows that his choices can change what happens to him, others he knows, and even the entire Federation.

I think his personality is absolutely relevant. He also knows that is original actions leads to exactly what needs to happen. So the best course of action is for him to follow his normal impulses. Some people would be unable to do that but I don’t think Pike is that type of person. He has made a decision and is going to go forward with it. I could see it being challenging at decisions that a clearly leading to the accident but otherwise I can’t see him as someone to second guess a decision once he has made it. 
Otherwise, I really do think we should have seen it in this episode. In the future he saw Una was in jail but we didn’t see him hesitate at all in making sure that didn’t happen. If he was going to second guess himself this was a clear opportunity for them to go down that road. 

[tennisgurl]

This was a big step up from the first episode, its a classic Trek courtroom drama! Like any good Trek court, its more about big speeches and obvious metaphors than any kind of law, but that's why Trek courtroom dramas are so much fun. This was very Measure of a Man mixed with Doctor Bashir I presume, which are both set far into the future so we know that these issues aren't going away because Una got a win. Neera is awesome, I really hope she comes back with her speeches and her fabulous wardrobe next time the crew needs more legal council. 

I know that the Federation has a huge thing about genetic augmentation because of the eugenics wars, but it seems so weird that they insist that any new species that joins them has to follow that very specific rule based around human history. Sure, other races might agree with them having heard about the eugenics wars and might have their own issues with genetic augmentation, but forcing a culture to give up what they need to do to survive on their own planet seems like its a totally different issue than what happened in the eugenics wars. That's the point of the argument I suppose, that this whole rule is based on fear and not logic, so the opposite of the smug Vulcans excuse for booting Una. I was also left with more questions about the Illyrians, what does it mean to "pass" as a non Illyrian? All of the Illyrians look like regular humans, was there something different about Una and her family? How did this whole "all of the Illyrians go to another city" idea work, and where was this happening?

Wow Spock, tone it down, your making a scene!

[dovegrey]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

I think his personality is absolutely relevant. He also knows that is original actions leads to exactly what needs to happen. So the best course of action is for him to follow his normal impulses. Some people would be unable to do that but I don’t think Pike is that type of person. He has made a decision and is going to go forward with it. I could see it being challenging at decisions that a clearly leading to the accident but otherwise I can’t see him as someone to second guess a decision once he has made it. 
Otherwise, I really do think we should have seen it in this episode. In the future he saw Una was in jail but we didn’t see him hesitate at all in making sure that didn’t happen. If he was going to second guess himself this was a clear opportunity for them to go down that road. 

It's funny; that's not how I see Pike, especially after the season one finale, where he came off, to me, as someone who doesn't do well at all when he doesn't fully understand the box he's in and can't well conceptualize how his decisions will land. It humanized him, in my eyes at least, pouf and all.

Una's predicament here is a great example of the dilemma Pike should be facing with the knowledge that he has. At the end of S1, he lived a future where he didn’t promote off the Enterprise and dodged his doom, apparently for several years. In that future, Una was in prison and La’an wasn't on Enterprise, both of which the series just went way out of its way to reverse/prevent in the prime timeline. Is that what’s SUPPOSED to happen down the line, was it supposed to happen NOW, or is that what WOULD happen if Pike doom-dodged? A person could drive themselves insane trying to untangle that, but I agree that he has strong instincts that will guide him through 80% of the season. But, at some point, I hope a messier situation comes along and challenges Pike to balance his fate, his knowledge, and his choices to maintain his doom course.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

It's funny; that's not how I see Pike, especially after the season one finale, where he came off, to me, as someone who doesn't do well at all when he doesn't fully understand the box he's in and can't well conceptualize how his decisions will land.

I agree with this but I think we disagree on what puts him in a box.