S02.E07: Burial

[hoodooznoodooz]

I just googled, “If I am starving, can I eat trees?” The answer is, yes. Yes, I can.

[hoodooznoodooz]

The idea of Travis having no choice but to eat his brother triggered me!

[Colorado David]

ok props to sam hanratty saying butt meat with a straight face, and following up with that tearful delivery. man that is serious chops.

[hoodooznoodooz]

Why does Charlotte have such a huge stash of alcohol at her compound/cult base/Wellness Center?

[CoachMartinez]

27 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Why does Charlotte have such a huge stash of alcohol at her compound/cult base/Wellness Center?

All great leaders need a vice. Manson did acid. Jim Jones speed. Lottie likes to get her drink on. It don't make her a bad person...

[Colorado David]

37 minutes ago, CoachMartinez said:

All great leaders need a vice. Manson did acid. Jim Jones speed. Lottie likes to get her drink on. It don't make her a bad person...

i think that was van's stash from her truck? or am i wrong and lottie is just a closet lush....

[CoachMartinez]

I think that was van's stash from her truck? or am i wrong and lottie is just a closet lush....

 

You could be right but I thought Van provided the tequila and then Lottie brought out a crate of booze. 

[KarenX]

9 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I just googled, “If I am starving, can I eat trees?” The answer is, yes. Yes, I can.

If I remember my Clan of the Cave Bear correctly, you can boil pine needles into a tea that wards off scurvy.

[the eskimo]

OK, so that ending made me think they're implying that the grown up versions remember VERY little about what happened out there? Because would they really be dancing around and "loving" Lightning Crashes in current time when that song prompted the Lottie beatdown back in the wilderness? I would think Shauna would hate that song for life.

Speaking of Shauna...I'm a Melanie Lynskey fan, but I can't figure out what she's doing with her acting choices. When she was breaking down to Lottie, I felt like I did when she was breaking down with the cop - like she's using some kernels of true emotion to put on this act and say what she thinks people want to hear. If that's the case, kudos for the acting. If not...seems like a rare miss in acting ability. I also have a hard time connecting young Shauna with adult Shauna, when all the rest seem pretty spot on. Melanie has that high-pitched, cutesy way of talking, while young Shauna seems sort of blunt and "rougher." I'm hoping this is all somehow intentional, but I'm not sure how or why. 

[AstridM]

That wasn’t the song that prompted the beatdown. It was “Qui” by Charles Aznavour. Misty was humming it. 
 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by AstridM

[snarts]

Said I was done, but binged & caught up this weekend. Kinda regret it, but...

1 hour ago, the eskimo said:

Speaking of Shauna...I'm a Melanie Lynskey fan, but I can't figure out what she's doing with her acting choices.

Acting is off a bit for many of them this season, including the incredible Melanie Lynskey and Juliette Lewis. I think it's because the writers haven't shared (don't have) the full story outline. The actresses are flying a bit blind on their characters and where they are headed with them. 

As a State Senator, isn't someone wondering where Tai is?

Edited May 15, 2023 by snarts

[sistermagpie]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:12 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I've forgotten a lot, too. I don't remember that or Jeff revealing he sent the postcards, which a lot of people seem to think happened. I also don't remember Travis hallucinating that he found Javi's dead body either lol.

I think Jeff revealed he sent the postcards because all the characters considered the postcards the first communication from the blackmailer with a point made of Shauna not getting one as a clue, and Jeff revealed he was the blackmailer without making any specific reference of postcard vs. text. And since then, the postcards have never been brought up by anyone at all.

Travis hallucinated Javi's body in the snow when he was out with Nat, but as he dug him up Nat said it was just a fox and then he looked again and yes, it was a fox.

On 5/13/2023 at 5:31 PM, BitterApple said:

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but when Misty was trying to talk Coach Scott down from the ledge, she said "I tried so hard to keep the baby alive." Does this mean Shauna didn't have a stillbirth? I wonder if Shauna's dream of the girls eating the baby was the moment he actually died? 

Could have been a stillbirth or it lived for a second, but I think what Misty was saying fits a stillbirth as well.

 

On 5/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, Black Knight said:

I don't think the opening scene is that simple. The last thing we saw before this episode was Shauna screaming to everyone in the cabin, and the viewers, if we/they could hear her son crying. It's very natural that coming back from the two-week break, the show started with a picture of how everyone was reacting in the aftermath of that. I honestly don't know how the show would go from that last scene in the previous episode to the start of this episode without having such a scene. It's very necessary for character reasons. And it was only about a minute. There wouldn't really have been any progress on the Javi storyline if that minute had been given to him instead. "Why don't you talk?" [silence] "Talk!" [silence] That's just a waste of screentime. I'm happy to accept that everyone has decided to give Javi some space while they're busy with the drama of Shauna's baby. The only one he's really important to is his brother. (And Shauna to a degree, but she's completely overwhelmed with what's going on with her.)

Agreed. People are losing interest in a lot of things including asking the same questions of Javi he's refused to answer so far. As Travis said, he'll speak when he's ready. And I agree it might be something that moves things along when he finally does speak.

22 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Not sure if we will ever learn what fully happened to Javi because this episode made me think that the group is going to kill him. Since last season I wondered what lead Nat to spiral into drugs and alcohol in adulthood because like a lot have said, she seemed to be one of the most together in the past. So ultimately, I think she must get into drugs because Travis does, after seeing that flashback of them getting high together. I feel like Travis would get into it first and Nat would try to help him, but Travis would ultimately be like, "the only thing you can do for me is be here with me as I am, or leave." And Nat would make that choice.

Nat was already an active drug user as a teenager, so I don't think she'd need Travis for that. Her being together in the woods was a change from the way she was back in New Jersey. She had a purpose that took the place of drugs, alcohol and sex. When she returned that would be gone. Maybe she introduced Travis to it, maybe not.

 

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, the eskimo said:

Speaking of Shauna...I'm a Melanie Lynskey fan, but I can't figure out what she's doing with her acting choices. When she was breaking down to Lottie, I felt like I did when she was breaking down with the cop - like she's using some kernels of true emotion to put on this act and say what she thinks people want to hear. If that's the case, kudos for the acting. If not...seems like a rare miss in acting ability. I also have a hard time connecting young Shauna with adult Shauna, when all the rest seem pretty spot on. Melanie has that high-pitched, cutesy way of talking, while young Shauna seems sort of blunt and "rougher." I'm hoping this is all somehow intentional, but I'm not sure how or why. 

I completely agree. Adult Shauna has never fully worked for me but this season she really doesn't. Melanie's acting is bad imo and yea there's no connection between the teen and adult version, which I find annoying. I don't find much connection between teen and adult Tai either.

3 hours ago, snarts said:

Acting is off a bit for many of them this season, including the incredible Melanie Lynskey and Juliette Lewis. I think it's because the writers haven't shared (don't have) the full story outline. The actresses are flying a bit blind on their characters and where they are headed with them. 

I believe I read somewhere that they allowed the actors to decide whether they wanted to know the 5 season plan (presumably they only have the big points mapped out but still) or not and some chose to hear it, Melanie being one, I think.

Quote

As a State Senator, isn't someone wondering where Tai is?

Since this season has only been 1 week and started right after the finale last season, I don't think Tai has actually taken office yet. Also, it's only been 1 day since the car accident.

[Black Knight]

28 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I believe I read somewhere that they allowed the actors to decide whether they wanted to know the 5 season plan (presumably they only have the big points mapped out but still) or not and some chose to hear it, Melanie being one, I think.

Yes. In the Media thread a while back I posted a link to an article where Lynskey confirmed she was given a complete rundown of S1 and the plan for the remaining 4 seasons. She knows the broad strokes of where everything is going.

And yes, there's no way Tai has taken office yet. The only time it happens that fast is if the seat was vacated during the term due to death or resignation and so there was a special election to choose a replacement to finish the current term. In the U.S., new terms start a few months after regular elections - we hold regular elections in early November, and then early the following year the new term begins. We're something of an outlier with our long lame duck period; in most other countries elected officials take office very shortly after the election.

Adult Tai and Teen Tai, to me, have always shared an intensity and drive that lets me connect the two. Teen Shauna and Adult Shauna both have an amoral streak and an interestingly gross way of rationalizing their actions and decisions, among other things. All of the adult and teen versions are separated by nearly 25 years as well as an additional year of trauma in the woods we have yet to see. And because the nature vs. environment question differs by the individual, some of the adult characters are more overtly like their teen selves than others. Adult Van, for instance, has clearly chosen to stay in the past, so it's no surprise that she hews so closely to her teen self. She's literally refused to try to change or grow; she wants to stay in pre-crash 1996. (And while we don't know why Tai and Van broke up, we've had hints that it was Tai's decision, and I bet it had a fair amount to do with Van refusing to move forward.) But we know what Teen Shauna wanted to do after high school, and Adult Shauna ended up going a completely different way, out of guilt and shame. (I believe her on that. She decided she needed to live the life she thought Jackie would have lived, that it would have been wrong of her to go ahead with her own life plans that she'd kept concealed from her best friend.)

[Eeksquire]

Quote

OK, so that ending made me think they're implying that the grown up versions remember VERY little about what happened out there?

I think that's a very weird choice for the showrunners to make, since we spent a lot of last season VERY INVESTED in Shauna's diaries. Jeff has read them, Shauna clearly pulled them out once in awhile. I guess they could be pointing to Shauna having stopped writing at some point, but there was quite a stack that they burned on the grill earlier in the season. 

I'm sort of thinking (typing) out loud here, but if that's the case, maybe Shauna is a little less okay than the others in present day because she DOES remember more? Or she just remembers more because of the pregnancy? Unless it's a misdirect and Nat doesn't remember much, but the others do. 

In any event, I'm just glad that it appears we're now at the fireworks factory for the season.

[Anela]

They might all be pretending, because they're ashamed, and don't want to talk about it. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I completely agree. Adult Shauna has never fully worked for me but this season she really doesn't. Melanie's acting is bad imo and yea there's no connection between the teen and adult version, which I find annoying. I don't find much connection between teen and adult Tai either.

They're also the two who have most repressed parts of themselves. Shauna, especially, is really playing a role in her life and it seems like her trauma has made her numb to a lot of feelings. Younger Shauna is going through it, but she's not shut down yet.

 

1 hour ago, Eeksquire said:

I think that's a very weird choice for the showrunners to make, since we spent a lot of last season VERY INVESTED in Shauna's diaries. Jeff has read them, Shauna clearly pulled them out once in awhile. I guess they could be pointing to Shauna having stopped writing at some point, but there was quite a stack that they burned on the grill earlier in the season. 

I don't think they were saying they didn't remember stuff in general--as Natalie said, she did remember, just some thing were hazy. And Lottie seemed to assume they were talking about times when they were in what she considered ecstatic states, which would probably mean times like the way they were at Doomcoming.

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, the eskimo said:

I also have a hard time connecting young Shauna with adult Shauna, when all the rest seem pretty spot on. Melanie has that high-pitched, cutesy way of talking, while young Shauna seems sort of blunt and "rougher." I'm hoping this is all somehow intentional, but I'm not sure how or why. 

While Nelisse and Lynskey's mannerisms are different in some ways, one should note that tonally they're also dealing with some fairly different material. Lynskey's scenes are often written as suburban dark comedy, whereas Nelisse is often (and especially this season) playing the angstiest, grimmest part of the show.

7 hours ago, snarts said:

Said I was done, but binged & caught up this weekend. Kinda regret it, but...

Acting is off a bit for many of them this season, including the incredible Melanie Lynskey and Juliette Lewis. I think it's because the writers haven't shared (don't have) the full story outline. The actresses are flying a bit blind on their characters and where they are headed with them. 

Actors don't generally need to know where their characters are headed as a result of things that haven't happened yet. Indeed, it's quite rare to get that on TV.

[Shermie]

Re: what happened to Crystal’s body? Misty was digging wildly around in the snow, but when they showed the aerial shot of that area, it looked like there was a dark lump under the snow where Misty didn’t dig. It could have been rocks, but it also could have been Crystal. 

And speaking of rocks, there is no way Shauna could have found those big flat rocks just loosely lying there; that’s not how rocks work. They don’t really suit the environment, but even if I believe that kind of rock is conveniently there, they would be frozen to the ground. But I know Hollywood doesn’t understand how snow works either. To whit, when they opened the cabin door after the blizzard and it was 4 feet up the door. Makes for a cool visual, but that’s now how snow works.

[Demian]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

In the U.S., new terms start a few months after regular elections - we hold regular elections in early November, and then early the following year the new term begins.

You know, I have no idea what time of year the present-day scenes are supposed to be happening.  Have there been any specific references to dates?  Some of the clothes say Early Autumn, sure, but others really don't -- and the mountains surrounding Lottie's compound seemed awfully green for upstate New York in late October/early November.

[Anela]

15 minutes ago, Demian said:

You know, I have no idea what time of year the present-day scenes are supposed to be happening.  Have there been any specific references to dates?  Some of the clothes say Early Autumn, sure, but others really don't -- and the mountains surrounding Lottie's compound seemed awfully green for upstate New York in late October/early November.

Elections usually happen in November here, unless it's a primary, or a special election. So, I think it's two or three weeks before Thanksgiving.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Anela

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, Demian said:

You know, I have no idea what time of year the present-day scenes are supposed to be happening.  Have there been any specific references to dates?  Some of the clothes say Early Autumn, sure, but others really don't -- and the mountains surrounding Lottie's compound seemed awfully green for upstate New York in late October/early November.

There was an episode that took place on Halloween in S1, so things really shouldn't be that green around Lottie's place!

[tennisgurl]

John Cameron Mitchell as Caligula is the best weirdest casting I could have ever imagined. I feel like Misty's dream sequence was a whole journey for me as a viewer, going from thinking it was awesome, to stupid, to awesome again by the end, never a dull moment with Misty. I thought that she had a really interesting episode, especially teen Misty. She's truly hurt by what she did to Crystal, even if it was an accident, she's manipulating things to keep the other girls from knowing what happened, she really did seem upset about Coach Ben trying to kill himself and managed to talk him down, even after she tried to kill him not so long ago, Misty is just a whirlwind of crazy. 

Even if Ben didn't go over the mountain, I cant imagine that he's long for this world as he is physically and mentally deteriorating at such a rapid pace. Poor guy is literally falling apart. 

Lottie's forest cult is certainly creepy, especially because we know how things go, but for now its at least providing some comfort for the team, I can see why so many of them ended up so attached to it in this desperate situation. I think that teen Lottie believes her hype but adult Lottie, after years of therapy, thinks that her visions were all just a part of her mental illness, and both feel uncomfortable with their role as cult leader/prophet. How this will play out I'm not sure but its not going the way I thought it would.

It seems weird that Nat is apparently actually buying what Lottie is selling at the compound, but I guess it could be like why so many people joined up with Lottie's forest cult in the woods. People desperate for a reason to hang on will hang onto some very strange things. 

It was really cool seeing so many of the adult survivors together, trauma bonds really do hold strong, beyond cannibalism, murder cults, and possible deer monsters. 

Jeff's goofy "trying to sound natural while talking about the murder we're covering up" phone call was incredible, Jeff is really bringing the hilarity this season.

Edited May 16, 2023 by tennisgurl

[monagatuna]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:46 PM, Shorty186 said:

Was that Alanis singing the opening again? I missed it in ep 4 since I tend to skip the song to get to the episode but I watched it this time and was so surprised. I had no idea the title song was original for the show and not a 90s song, so I first thought, did they get the original artist to re-record the song now and that's how she sounds 30 years later? Then I read Alanis covered it for episode 4 and now this sounds like it could be her. But enough about the music.

Never enough about the music! Florence Welsh's cover of Just a Girl prompted me to suggest that song to my band, and they went for it. We're doing the No Doubt version, which is much harder vocally than you'd think. And we're doing a Sleater Kinney song as well, which made the callback in e6 fun for me.

But no, I don't think this version was an Alanis cover. My wife and I asked a similar question, noting how it had a certain Juliette and the Licks flair to it, and she looked it up. I can't remember (or find now) who covered it, but I don't think it was Alanis (it wasn't Juliette, either, but I'd really love it if her band would cover it!).

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by monagatuna

[Cranberry]

17 hours ago, Shermie said:

But I know Hollywood doesn’t understand how snow works either. To whit, when they opened the cabin door after the blizzard and it was 4 feet up the door. Makes for a cool visual, but that’s now how snow works.

That part actually rang true to me -- before a blizzard, I'll take a shovel into the house in case I end up having to break through a snow door! The snow on all the trees looks fake, though, and the snow on objects looks really fake when they brush it aside. I just try to ignore it; it's better than the poor actors freezing their fingers off!

 

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Cranberry said:

That part actually rang true to me -- before a blizzard, I'll take a shovel into the house in case I end up having to break through a snow door! The snow on all the trees looks fake, though, and the snow on objects looks really fake when they brush it aside. I just try to ignore it; it's better than the poor actors freezing their fingers off!

Yeah, I live in Boston now, and while I wasn't here for it, I've heard a lot on the neighborhood FB group about the "100-inch winter" a few years ago, with pics of the snow piled all the way to the top of their doors after one particularly bad storm. As far north as the YJs are, they definitely would get that kind of snow sometimes.

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

Actors don't generally need to know where their characters are headed as a result of things that haven't happened yet. Indeed, it's quite rare to get that on TV.

The adult counterparts are in a tricky position, though, because so much of the mystery is about what happened in their past. So I see why Lynskey opted to be told. Knowing your character's backstory can be critical for your performance.

Which, BTW, goes to support the thought that:

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think they were saying they didn't remember stuff in general--as Natalie said, she did remember, just some thing were hazy. And Lottie seemed to assume they were talking about times when they were in what she considered ecstatic states, which would probably mean times like the way they were at Doomcoming.

If Shauna didn't remember anything, Lynskey wouldn't need to know because Adult Shauna doesn't know what she's forgotten and so it'd be essentially the same as playing a character to whom something hasn't happened yet.

Lottie is probably very near the right of it - Doomcoming, the Roman banquet of eating Jackie (which Tai did not remember), and so forth. I can see individual women having a memory of that kind of group madness without being sure what they themselves did or didn't do during it.

[Anela]

I suppose they could have blocked it out, in order to adapt to life at home again. I know my memory isn't as good anymore, and I did block one thing out as a teenager, that I remembered around 2010. My sister remembered it. 

I don't live in an area that gets that much snow, but I do remember people being snowed in, in places like Buffalo, NY. A friend posted a picture of her door - they had to tunnel out. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

If Shauna didn't remember anything, Lynskey wouldn't need to know because Adult Shauna doesn't know what she's forgotten and so it'd be essentially the same as playing a character to whom something hasn't happened yet.

 

But Shauna had diaries, so she would have a record of a lot of it--or at least, though again that might not include hazy things like Doomcoming. Tai, of course, also has her split personality--though when Van told her they'd eaten Jackie she seemed to have a flash of memory of it.

 

[Emily Thrace]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:54 PM, Black Knight said:

Yeah, I live in Boston now, and while I wasn't here for it, I've heard a lot on the neighborhood FB group about the "100-inch winter" a few years ago, with pics of the snow piled all the way to the top of their doors after one particularly bad storm. As far north as the YJs are, they definitely would get that kind of snow sometimes.

The adult counterparts are in a tricky position, though, because so much of the mystery is about what happened in their past. So I see why Lynskey opted to be told. Knowing your character's backstory can be critical for your performance.

Which, BTW, goes to support the thought that:

If Shauna didn't remember anything, Lynskey wouldn't need to know because Adult Shauna doesn't know what she's forgotten and so it'd be essentially the same as playing a character to whom something hasn't happened yet.

Lottie is probably very near the right of it - Doomcoming, the Roman banquet of eating Jackie (which Tai did not remember), and so forth. I can see individual women having a memory of that kind of group madness without being sure what they themselves did or didn't do during it.

One of the more popular theories I've seen is that they are actually being poisioned by mercury or lead and the land they are on is contaminated. So group hallucinations could be the result of that. Long term low level exposure is hard to detect and can cause cancer. Mercury contamination isn't  unheard of in the Canadian wilderness. It would also explain why a place only 600 miles from the border is so uninhabited. 600 miles from the border is still cottage country in most of Ontario. (Although that could be the American  writers not getting how big Canada is, it wouldn't be the first time.) Plus it explains why all the animals are so unafraid of humans.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Emily Thrace

[Macbeth1966]

On 5/12/2023 at 4:09 PM, Anela said:

She had her locked up in her basement, and then killed her through cigarettes. That isn't self-defense. 

I wonder what her reaction would be, if she found out that Tai had her stalking them.

That's why Shauna's and Misty's self discoveries through Lottie's healing techniques are so very different.

Shauna's beating Lottie up was her psychotic break.  So she had a real breakthrough when she looked after the baby goat.

Misty is a complete sociopath - so her "breakthrough" is she is perfect - doesn't need to change.  There is no way she can have a breakthrough.