All Episodes Discussion

[ari333]

Set your DVR, you have time.

Holy crap I didnt' know what day it is.... OMG>..  Have I finally gone cray?

[JudyObscure]

My TV blipped over that, too. I think he probably said her name, as in that Jane Smith is a real Tessa. Urban Slang dictionary says it is "Asset," backwards and refers to a girl who is a total package of looks, brains, talent and charisma. That, plus her name in all caps in his list of girls sounds to me like he thought she was more than just a hot girl and may have -- originally -- just wanted to do the nice definition of "senior salute," which seems to have been to ask a younger girl out for a short date, call it an official senior salute, as a compliment form an outgoing person. A way of saying, "I noticed this one and think she will go far." then bad definition seems to be "these are the girls I want to do before I graduate." that's what it turned into.

I agree that girls need to be taught self-worth but I also think we shouldn't expect any fifteen year-old girl to be able to handle an 18 year-old boy. If she had been living at home her parents would have taken one look at him, asked a few questions and there would have been no date.

[walnutqueen]

I agree that girls need to be taught self-worth but I also think we shouldn't expect any fifteen year-old girl to be able to handle an 18 year-old boy. If she had been living at home her parents would have taken one look at him, asked a few questions and there would have been no date.

 

Since when has that EVER stopped a young girl from "dating" or consorting with any boy?  Because, usually, that just doesn't work, living at home or not.

[cooksdelight]

Yeah, I knew plenty of girls who were 14 and 15 that were having sex with their boyfriends when we were growing up back in the 70s. One girl actually got pregnant a couple of times and claimed she didn't know how it happened.

But this girl sounded like she was really, really traumatized. It didn't sound like she was doing it with her boyfriend in the back seat of his car as was the case back in the day at the drive-in.

[LakeGal]

Didn't they say the girl's older sister had once dated this boy?  I believe they said she told her sister not to accept the date because he was a player.  So at least one family member did try to help her.  But he got another girl to convince her to go out with him.  

[walnutqueen]

Didn't they say the girl's older sister had once dated this boy?  I believe they said she told her sister not to accept the date because he was a player.  So at least one family member did try to help her.  But he got another girl to convince her to go out with him.  

 

Actually, he got another guy to convince her, but I suppose at this point it's splitting hairs.

[Fable]

I know this will be unpopular, but I don't think this was a case of rape  The E-mails in the day or so afterwards pretty much confirm this.  I know, I know, age of consent and all, but really, when I was in high school 15 to 18 was not a big deal.   I was 15 when I met my ex-husband who was 18 at the time and we also went to school together.  I think this girl went out with him hoping for a love connection, and he just wanted a notch on his belt.  When she realized she had been taken advantage of, she cried rape, but it sounded to me like she was a willing participant.  I'm not arguing that the guy wasn't a sleeze, but I don't think he forced himself on her, manipulated her yes. but I think the sex was consensual.  .  

[Mrs. P.]

I kept wondering why she told the school nurse who she went to for the morning after pill that the sex was consensual. Did she think it was consensual at first, then later changed her mind and called it rape?

[JudyObscure]

 

I know this will be unpopular, but I don't think this was a case of rape  The E-mails in the day or so afterwards pretty much confirm this.

I forgot about those. I can understand not telling the nurse if she had decided to wait until after her sister's graduation to go to the police, but you would think she would ignore her rapists e-mails rather than reply with glowing compliments.  That's strange behavior for someone who is so devastated and traumatized that she can't be happy until he is punished.

[grumpypanda]

That message Owen sent the girl inviting her to go to the roof with him was so bizarre. When I was a teen, a boy would just call and ask if you wanted to hang out and not write a weird sonnet.

Anyway, they didn't give us much detail about the Senior Salute was but I assumed it was older boys competing with one another to see who can sleep with the most freshmen girls. I'm guessing that Salute is a reference to an erection.

I definitely think that Owen is a creep and that he manipulated this young girl into having sex with him but it's hard to know in a case like this if his actions were really rape though. It's possible that she freaked out for letting things go too far and felt emembarrassed and ashamed for letting Owen use her. Maybe in her mind she didn't consent but she didn't make it clear to Owen that she wanted him to stop.

I have no doubt that she's been traumatized by the incident but I'm not completely sure that he did rape her. There's so many shades of grey here that it's impossible to really know what happened.

What I don't get is that if he had consensual sex with the girl than why did he deny it in the first place? Maybe because he was afraid that her being fifteen could get him in trouble or maybe because he knew he raped her. I really don't know.

I'm really confused as to why the girl continued to send flirty messages to him after she was raped. I guess she could have been in shock and she didn't know what to do but it's still strange.

Anyway, I hope this gets kids talking and older boys will think twice before perusing a younger girls. I also hope that girls will learn to stand up for themselves and realize that they have the right to say no at any point.

[JudyObscure]

I looked up the site, which did not impress me much, and found out the annual tuition is almost $58,000.  That's a lot of money to have your kids get their lives ruined. Owen's parents would have spent almost a quarter million by the time he had learned to seduce girls with sonnets.

 

Has anyone read, "Testimony," by Anita Shreve?  It's a novel about a sex scandal in an elite New England boarding school, a senior boy and freshman girl.  It's not based on this, but very similar. Each chapter gives a different point of view, including teachers, roommates, parents.  It may be one reason I'm giving this girl a bit of side eye. 

[BusyOctober]

St. Paul's is like many other blue-blood, Ivy League type prep schools and colleges. They have HUGE alumni endowments and give out a lot of scholarships. Like Harvard, Brown, Phillips and Choate, hardly anyone from middle class who is accepted pays full price. Owen received a full scholarship to both St. Paul's and Harvard ( before it was rescinded ).

I am disgusted by the Sr. Salute practice, but if all the students were aware of it, then I would assume the freshmen girls were too. I would think sophomore and upper class girls would warn the 14-15 yr olds about accepting "dates" from Seniors (especially as it got closer to graduation).

It's awful that these bad decisions will affect these kids forever. I'm very sorry the girl had this experience but all the more reason to educate girls (&boys) on the emotional & psychological components of sex and not just the mechanics.

[psychoticstate]

I didn't see enough in this episode to convince me that rape happened.  It seems like a classic case of "he said, she said," 

 

The girl's texts immediately after that night disturbed me.  I get that she was young but it seems that she would have not have been telling the guy he was an angel.  Maybe an "Eff Off" if any contact at all.   It makes me think that he may have pressured her for sex and she agreed and then regretted it later.

[cooksdelight]

I am now starting to wonder if somehow her parents found out, they read her the riot act, and in response to that, she said she was raped? I could see a 15-year old being terrified of what their parents would do if it was consensual sex, versus her being forced.

[ari333]

Could her friendly emails to him afterwards be her trying to convince herself that nothing terrible happened? as in some kind of cognitive dissonance or something.,? Maybe I'm reaching.

[psychoticstate]

I think anything is possible, especially given that the rape allegation wasn't made for several weeks. There could have been some pressure or not, there could have been a misunderstanding or not, she could have thought this was a relationship and it wasn't, or not.  Heck, there could have been sex or not. 

 

I think back to when I was fifteen and a lot of things we did do not make sense to our adult minds.  But when I think of being raped or even doing something that I really didn't want to do but didn't refuse, I see my fifteen year old self being teary, upset and hibernating away.  I think I would be so upset and disgusted that I wouldn't want to tell anyone. 

 

This boy was Mr. Popular and the girl's older sister had warned her about him.  It's possible that she felt stupid for not listening and/or felt that no one would believe her because this boy was Big Man on Campus.  I suppose she could have been texting him as a means to try and tell herself that nothing bad had happened . . . but I still keep getting stumped on them.

[zxy556575]

Who to believe? Blegh.

 

My high school boyfriend/future ex-husband is two years older than me, so for a while he was 18/19 and I was 16/17 when we were having sex. Not sure what the law was back then, but currently in CA it's a crime to have "unlawful" sexual intercourse with someone under 18. It's a misdemeanor if the older person is no more than 3 years older. If he/she is, it can be either a felony or misdemeanor.

 

The statutory rape laws by state are interesting.

[ari333]

Im thinking she was trying to convince herself that nothing terrible happened... but it did... and in her soul she knew it. I think the emails were a weird reaction...trying to make it ok in her head and she couldn't  do it.

I believe her.

[NewDigs]

Saw "A Killing in Cottonwood," and thought the second jury had it wrong. If Karen's family supported Mark, there's NO WAY he could be guilty, right?!? Was really bothered by it, so I turned to Google for any updates...

https://2paragraphs.com/2015/09/mark-duenas-attorney-says-he-talks-too-much/

PS...Make sure you check out the link where one of their sons is a known pedophile.

Now I just feel sick. :/

Thanks for the update. I was on the guilty or innocent fence with that one but that hard-nosed prosecutor left me rooting for innocent. It seemed to me that she had found her perp and built the case around that supposition. I hate that she might/probably be right. Even CreepyKeith gave her a kind of hard time.

Hated hearing about Macumber. His prison time was a travesty.

Re: good clean kill guy

Mistakes were made by all involved but it did not need to end in death. His after the fact words were beyond chilling. Imho he laid in wait as opposed to responding to danger.

[LakeGal]

I do wonder if her parents are part of the reason she cried rape.  I remember back when I was a teenager.  A girl that was 15 had sex with a guy that was 21.  They were both drunk and it happened in the bushes at a bonfire party. I was at the party.  She was fine with it at the time.  She had a crush on the guy and was happy about it.  She was not a virgin and had been quite sexually active before this.  But her parents still thought she was a sweet little girl.  Months later her parents found out and had the guy charged with rape.   He didn't even try to fight it because he knew the age difference killed him.  He admitted he was so drunk he didn't even remember the encounter.  But he said it probably happened.  I knew both people involved plus their families.  He went to jail for a short time and was put on probation after he was out.  It caused a huge rift with people taking sides.  She changed her story because of her parents. I knew she was lying.  But she was scared of what her parents thought.      

[UsernameFatigue]

Like some others here I don't necessarliy believe her and find her emails to him odd for someone who was so traumatized. And she told the nurse when she went for the morning after pill that it was consentual sex. I think her story changed because of her parents, and maybe even her sister who may also have expected a relationship with him that did not materialize. Also I am sure on the show they said the girl is now 17. Since the encounter only happened about 15 months ago she must have been close 16 at the time. I am just not buying the innocent and didn't know better act. He did not drag her up to where the so called assault happened, she went happily and willingly, knowing his reputation as a player and apparently the senior salute which seemed to be common knowledge.

 

I have the biggest problem with this guy now being labelled a sexual offender for life. I can't believe his lawyers cannot get this conviction overturned. The law was not put in place for boys who send sonnets to girls trying to woo them (for whatever intent). It is for actual predators and pedophiles. So if he had sent the messages via text there would have been no sexual registry as he would not have been using a computer. If he had said the sentiments over the phone there would be no sexual registry as they were not sent via the computer. Rubbish in my opinion, and the biggest travesty of the whole case.

 

I was disturbed by the interview with the now 17 year old as well that she wants him to be punished and to get on with her life, and will apparently be traumitized until that happens. I hope she has learned to take some responsibilty for her actions. And no, I am not blaming 'the victim' - I am saying that both sexes need to smarten up. If she hasn't learned anything from the experience chances are she will put herself in the same position again.

[ari333]

This eppy is a repeat IIRC but it aired again late Sunday night which is really Monday morning at 2 a.m. I didnt' see a thread for it yet. It is about bullying and there are hidden cameras with actors playing bullies with some regular kids mixed in the fake focus group which is why they regular kids were told they were there. They capture reactions of kids, but there is a twist. They also set up the parents for some situations to see how THEY react.

Additionally, Rosalind Wiseman is on as a guest/ expert to give advice. She is the author of , "Queen Bees and Wannaabes" "Queen-Bee Moms Kingpin Dads, " Masterminds Wingmen" etc.

I cant imagine having that happen back in the day when I was a kid and there were no cell phones and facebook and "my page space" as my neighbor calls it. :) I recall "Slam Books" back in the day - that were pretty hurtful. I cant recall that I was ever mentioned in one, but it is very possible that my name was there and I never saw it.

I haven't watched the whole show yet, but it looks pretty interesting and shocking at a glance. Even n the intro few minutes, some examples of cyber bullying were "Go kill yourself" "Everyone hates you." It seems pretty brutal, especially coming from kids.

Some kids were bullied in real life (outside of the show,) which made me think about another aspect of now being different than the old days which is that now the bullies can sit in the safety of their home and trash people online through social media etc. Iow, it makes it even easier to try to break someone's spirit..

[cooksdelight]

There have been several episodes of this show concept, so we can lump them all into this one thread.

[ari333]

There have been several episodes of this show concept, so we can lump them all into this one thread.

Ok Great.

 

I'd like to see the other installments of this theme. Maybe you tube has them. I didn't see them on On Demand.

 

I liked the "My Parent Would Never Do That" part too.

[ari333]

I do wonder if her parents are part of the reason she cried rape.  I remember back when I was a teenager.  A girl that was 15 had sex with a guy that was 21.  They were both drunk and it happened in the bushes at a bonfire party. I was at the party.  She was fine with it at the time.  She had a crush on the guy and was happy about it.  She was not a virgin and had been quite sexually active before this.  But her parents still thought she was a sweet little girl.  Months later her parents found out and had the guy charged with rape.   He didn't even try to fight it because he knew the age difference killed him.  He admitted he was so drunk he didn't even remember the encounter.  But he said it probably happened.  I knew both people involved plus their families.  He went to jail for a short time and was put on probation after he was out.  It caused a huge rift with people taking sides.  She changed her story because of her parents. I knew she was lying.  But she was scared of what her parents thought.      

 

I totally believe this story ^^^^ too and know that that does indeed happen... pressure from parents and all the nuance of their little angel having consensual sex is just too much for them so they go all "RAPE". However, I don't get the feeling that that is what happened here with the girl in this eppy. It does feel iffy like there is a grey area, but if I had to choose... I believe her.

[ari333]

Like some others here I don't necessarliy believe her and find her emails to him odd for someone who was so traumatized. And she told the nurse when she went for the morning after pill that it was consentual sex. I think her story changed because of her parents, and maybe even her sister who may also have expected a relationship with him that did not materialize. Also I am sure on the show they said the girl is now 17. Since the encounter only happened about 15 months ago she must have been close 16 at the time. I am just not buying the innocent and didn't know better act. He did not drag her up to where the so called assault happened, she went happily and willingly, knowing his reputation as a player and apparently the senior salute which seemed to be common knowledge.

 

I have the biggest problem with this guy now being labelled a sexual offender for life. I can't believe his lawyers cannot get this conviction overturned. The law was not put in place for boys who send sonnets to girls trying to woo them (for whatever intent). It is for actual predators and pedophiles. So if he had sent the messages via text there would have been no sexual registry as he would not have been using a computer. If he had said the sentiments over the phone there would be no sexual registry as they were not sent via the computer. Rubbish in my opinion, and the biggest travesty of the whole case.

 

I was disturbed by the interview with the now 17 year old as well that she wants him to be punished and to get on with her life, and will apparently be traumitized until that happens. I hope she has learned to take some responsibilty for her actions. And no, I am not blaming 'the victim' - I am saying that both sexes need to smarten up. If she hasn't learned anything from the experience chances are she will put herself in the same position again.

 

I totally agree with this part about how he asked for the date. If it had been by phone or text, as mentioned, there'd be no obvious evidence of "luring by computer". or however they phrase it. That part is over the top for me too.

 

However, a man does not have to drag a female somewhere in order to rape her. Sometimes there is a gentle sweet talk to lure the female to the location. Things get started, the man is ... erm..ready, aroused,  engaged.... the female says, "no... stop" and the man doesn't stop. That is rape. (imo) 

Edited November 2, 2015 by ari333

[ari333]

Well, we're watching and are only 9 minutes in... it is creepy.

[Rowan]

My gut says this was a case of buyers remorse, and that the sex was consensual.

I know that won't be popular. And as a woman and a mother to a young teen daughter, I feel a little bit uncomfortable "saying" it.

The Senior Salute is shady and stupid. And it makes me feel for all young girls who became a part of it.

However, obviously, rape is not always black and white, and there are different kinds of situations where it gets tricky. And the whole freeze as a response to rape may be valid. But if you had been an active participant up until the moment of truth, and you suddenly become inactive, does that make it rape?

This young girl said she said no. And if she did, then, yes, it becomes rape to me. If she never actually vocalized her feelings, well, as the mother to a teen boy, I wouldn't call it rape. And seeing the texts after, I just don't think she said no.

Only they know.

There is a reason there is an age for consent. He learned that the hard way.

[UsernameFatigue]

Well put Rowan. I also think that she didn't say no - she may have said it in her head but I don't believe she said it to him.

 

The age of consent thing is tricky too. The age of consent in New Hampshire (not sure if it is the same throughout the states?) is 16. The girl was 15 at the time in I believe it was June, and 17 this October when the episode aired. So she was a few months at most from turning 16 when this happened- could have been a few weeks for all we know.  Maybe he assumed she was 16? I am not making excuses for him but it isn't like he was 21. He was a teenager too - a stupid one unfortunately.

 

In any case I hope teenagers of both sexes learn from this. The young man is paying for his crime (if there was one). I just hope his conviction as a sexual predator is overturned as I do not think he deserved it.  

Edited November 3, 2015 by UsernameFatigue

[ari333]

Maybe the young men should not play games in which young women/girls are used as pawns and conquests. Surely some of those guys have younger sisters. How would they feel about that? It all makes me sick.

[psychoticstate]

Maybe the young men should not play games in which young women/girls are used as pawns and conquests. Surely some of those guys have younger sisters. How would they feel about that? It all makes me sick.

 

I am not defending using people in the slightest but hormonally hyper teenaged boys are not going to be thinking about their sisters or thinking about someone using their sister.  An adult male, maybe but if a teen is thinking he is going to get laid, that's ALL he's thinking about.

 

 

My gut says this was a case of buyers remorse, and that the sex was consensual.

I know that won't be popular. And as a woman and a mother to a young teen daughter, I feel a little bit uncomfortable "saying" it.

The Senior Salute is shady and stupid. And it makes me feel for all young girls who became a part of it.

However, obviously, rape is not always black and white, and there are different kinds of situations where it gets tricky. And the whole freeze as a response to rape may be valid. But if you had been an active participant up until the moment of truth, and you suddenly become inactive, does that make it rape?

This young girl said she said no. And if she did, then, yes, it becomes rape to me. If she never actually vocalized her feelings, well, as the mother to a teen boy, I wouldn't call it rape. And seeing the texts after, I just don't think she said no.

Only they know.

There is a reason there is an age for consent. He learned that the hard way.

 

 

Well put Rowan. I also think that she didn't say no - she may have said it in her head but I don't believe she said it to him.

 

The age of consent thing is tricky too. The age of consent in New Hampshire (not sure if it is the same throughout the states?) is 16. The girl was 15 at the time in I believe it was June, and 17 this October when the episode aired. So she was a few months at most from turning 16 when this happened- could have been a few weeks for all we know.  Maybe he assumed she was 16? I am not making excuses for him but it isn't like he was 21. He was a teenager too - a stupid one unfortunately.

 

In any case I hope teenagers of both sexes learn from this. The young man is paying for his crime (if there was one). I just hope his conviction as a sexual predator is overturned as I do not think he deserved it.  

 

I think "buyer's remorse" is a very apt description here.  I could try and overlook the texts but as another post reminded me upthread, she told the nurse the sex was consensual.  I can understand not wanting to tell her parents if she was raped, or even her friends that night but why not a seemingly impartial bystander?   Was it ever reported on the show how her behavior was between that night and when she accused him of rape several weeks later?  I know she texted with him but I'm wondering if she missed her classes, seemed depressed, teary, angry, etc.  (And I do have to say that when I was a teen, my friends and I shared EVERYTHING with each other so I can't imagine not blabbing to one of my girlfriends in very short order.

 

The outcome of this case is a very slippery slope to me.  The boy invited the girl to a school event - - as despicable as you may find the event, it's still a known school event.  He wasn't masquerading as a teenager or student, he didn't lure her to the location under some ruse.  I don't agree at all with labeling him a predator or sex offender.  To me he was acting like a teenaged boy in this day of technology.  Kids don't call each other anymore -- they text and message. 

 

I don't know what happened that night.  My gut tells me it was consensual at the time and the girl had major regrets following (immediately, hours, days, weeks . . . unsure) and convinced herself it was rape.  I think the most important thing to take from this is that kids and teens need to understand the repercussions of saying yes and saying no. Boys need to understand that no means no, no matter what and no matter how far you've gone already.  Girls need to understand that you can say no at any point and it's okay to say it. 

 

Regardless of whether it did or did not happen, both of their lives have been forever altered and changed.

 

ETA - I wonder if the investigators ever talked to the nurse the girl went to and asked what her impressions were?  Seems like a nurse would recognize signs if someone had been raped/assaulted the night before.

Edited November 3, 2015 by psychoticstate

[Rowan]

I also think labeling this young man a sex offender is going too far.

The situation is messy. He is not a terribly sympathetic defendant, what with all the Senior Salute recruiting and and subsequent bragging, but to me he is not a criminal.

This comes down to her word against his. He lied about stopping short of intercourse, and I feel she isn't being truthful about telling him no.

I just don't feel it's fair that he is the one to bear most of blame and all of the punishment for a mistake they both entered into.

Now, again, this all based on the my opinion that the sex was consensual with a huge disclaimer that I can't ever truly know.

[ari333]

I believe her.

[UsernameFatigue]

I was interested in reading more about this case so I read a report that gave quite a bit more info that I remember being given on the episode. She agreed to meet Owen only if they kept the meeting a secret. She testified that she laughed a couple of times during the encounter saying it was a nervous laugh. She said she lifted her hips so that Owen could remove her pants, and raised her arms so he could pull off her shirt. She told the police in her statement that she was exicted about having his attention, and wasn't sure if she should be "proud or happy". She said that she said no three times (one presumes after she helped him take off her clothes) but that she did not kick, scream or push him off. In the initial police report she also said that she told a friend that " she might have had a sexual encounter with Owen Labrie" On the stand she said she didn't remember making that statement to the police. She also wrote off inconsistencies in her police report and her testimony to being  traumatized.

I'm sorry, but the more I read the less I believe her. And if you were raped would you tell a friend that you MIGHT have had a SEXUAL encounter? Me neither. In a statement after the verdict she called herself a survivor. Nope. Not even close to my definition of a real survivor.

Edited November 4, 2015 by UsernameFatigue

[cooksdelight]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the sexual offender registration thing only for a certain number of years, not lifetime?

[biakbiak]

No, the sexual offender registry is for a lifetime.

[ari333]

Did they say she had any vaginal injury? I cant recall now.

 

Anyway, even if she were naked, she could still say, "no." That would be terrible timing and really bad judgment to go that far and wait to say no, if that happened. I can see a 15 yr old getting into that situation.

 

I believe her bc of her statements, but also bc of the guy's demeanor and statements. Why deny that he had sexual contact with her at all? I realize that being a smarmy, smirky jerk does not make a rapist; But also rape does not have to be sudden and violent with severe physical injuries.  I'm not saying this very well.

Edited November 4, 2015 by ari333

[jenkait]

I actually couldn't stop laughing at the 6-year-old who exclaimed, "OOOH, a GUN!!" and picked it up from the table.  I know it was right after gun training, but what do you expect?  I think that talking about safety is part of learning and it's a good thing...but the kid also has to have some maturity, a little more safety experience in life, impulse control that comes with age, etc.  I remember in the gun scenario the 9-year-old grabbed her brother's arm and yanked him away, and then Natalie's Morales's son (about 11?) was like, "NOPE" to the video game guy.  I'd be MUCH more worried if the 9 and 11-year-olds had fallen for this stuff.  

[ari333]

I actually couldn't stop laughing at the 6-year-old who exclaimed, "OOOH, a GUN!!" and picked it up from the table.  I know it was right after gun training, but what do you expect?  I think that talking about safety is part of learning and it's a good thing...but the kid also has to have some maturity, a little more safety experience in life, impulse control that comes with age, etc.  I remember in the gun scenario the 9-year-old grabbed her brother's arm and yanked him away, and then Natalie's Morales's son (about 11?) was like, "NOPE" to the video game guy.  I'd be MUCH more worried if the 9 and 11-year-olds had fallen for this stuff.  

 

EEK! I missed that part.

[grumpypanda]

I do wonder if her parents are part of the reason she cried rape. I remember back when I was a teenager. A girl that was 15 had sex with a guy that was 21. They were both drunk and it happened in the bushes at a bonfire party. I was at the party. She was fine with it at the time. She had a crush on the guy and was happy about it. She was not a virgin and had been quite sexually active before this. But her parents still thought she was a sweet little girl. Months later her parents found out and had the guy charged with rape. He didn't even try to fight it because he knew the age difference killed him. He admitted he was so drunk he didn't even remember the encounter. But he said it probably happened. I knew both people involved plus their families. He went to jail for a short time and was put on probation after he was out. It caused a huge rift with people taking sides. She changed her story because of her parents. I knew she was lying. But she was scared of what her parents thought.

I can see that happening in some cases but I don't think that's the situation here. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but didn't she tell a student adviser about the rape first and then the advisor told her to tell her parents? If she really had consensual sex and just regretted it later, why tell anyone about it at all? She could have kept her mouth shut and her parents would never have known that she had sex in the first place. The girl was calling it rape before she even talked to her parents so I don't see how they talked her into it.

Only two people know what actually happened and I think the truth is somewhere in between. Maybe she said no playfully and he didn't realize that she was serious. He should have stopped right there but she's kissing him back, she's helping him undress her, she seems into it so he thinks he has a green light to go. I can see how two people in the same situation can interpret the events in a completely different way.

[SGfan]

I hope I don't come across as victim shaming, but I don't think she was raped. I know that rape doesn't have to be violent, but I just don't think rape was the situation here, for a lot of reasons already listed here. I do think she regrets what happened with them and I think he is smarmy, but I think a lot of guys his age are. I don't think he should be labeled a sex offender for life. There are lessons to be learned here, but rape, in my opinion, is not one of them. I don't believe they didn't have sex at all like he claims, but I don't believe she said no three times. That seemed coached by her attorney to me. She told someone she thought she had sex with him, told the nurse it was consentual, texted him what an angel he was, etc. He bragged to friends like a typical senior in high school would. Just sad all around. She needs to move on from her poor decisions IMO (meeting up with him against her sister's advice & just our little secret) and he doesn't need a sex crime following him for life.

[cooksdelight]

This was probably one of the most controversial cases Dateline has profiled, and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's opinions and the way it's been discussed here. Thank you all!

[SGfan]

I agree, cooksdelight! Usually I'm pretty well decided one way or the other, but this one was definitely a more controversial story.

[cooksdelight]

I've changed my mind 5 times to Sunday (as we say here in the south) based on some of the very insightful and intelligent posts here. This is one of the favorite forums I mod due in large fact to the people who post here.

[SGfan]

Haha! I'm in the south, too, so I get you! FYI, I was just in Charleston this past weekend, but that's probably only relevant in another forum. Wink, wink. Not that I have anything to report. LOL

[cooksdelight]

When detectives track down the killer of a Las Vegas cocktail waitress and mother, it becomes clear that the investigation has just begun,

[cooksdelight]

A courageous mother works with a hostage negotiator in hope of freeing her husband from kidnappers in Mexico.

A repeat episode from 2010, but we didn't have a thread for it.

[ari333]

Oh man. Was this case just covered a couple weeks ago on another show... 20/20 or 48 hrs? I might be confused, but it sounds familiar. MAybe they will have a different take on it.

[ari333]

If it is a repeat, it's ok with me since I don't think I've seen this one. How'd I miss it? Im such a fanatic about these crime shows....  I'm in!

[cooksdelight]

I don't remember it either, so I thought maybe I wasn't alone. :)