All Episodes Discussion

[Ellee]

I believe that that is a niece and that it was her ex-husband that was shot at and that the man she is currently married to wore a wire for the police to get information for the police on the kids.   
 

His facial expression and body language is interesting for lack of a better word.  

ETA  I’ve been meaning to ask.  Does Vallow’s charges now change to what Daybill is currently be charged with?   I mean ... there is no way in hell that she gets released even for a minute is there?

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Ellee

[Court]

3 hours ago, druzy said:

 

Thanks for that! I found this post on her Facebook page rather fascinating. 

[Lsk02]

Annie’s Facebook page is very eye-opening. She is the sister of Tylee’s biological father, Lori’s third husband who also died under mysterious circumstances. She seems to question Colby, Lori’s adult son who was interviewed on the last Dateline episode and came across as pretty sympathetic.  She’s also not a big fan of JJ’s grandparents. She is not happy that that leaked that the bodies were Tylee and J.J. before it was confirmed. She also wondered what took them and Colby so long to report the kids as missing. 
 

There are a lot of crazy extended family dynamics here. 

[Melina22]

I wonder if we'll ever understand a fraction of how 2 people who did an excellent job of appearing reasonably normal and functional for most of their lives could be capable of committing such evil and then walking around smiling and free of remorse. 

My hope is that they gave the children something that made them go to sleep, so they never knew what happened. 

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Lsk02 said:

Annie’s Facebook page is very eye-opening. She is the sister of Tylee’s biological father, Lori’s third husband who also died under mysterious circumstances. She seems to question Colby, Lori’s adult son who was interviewed on the last Dateline episode and came across as pretty sympathetic.  She’s also not a big fan of JJ’s grandparents. She is not happy that that leaked that the bodies were Tylee and J.J. before it was confirmed. She also wondered what took them and Colby so long to report the kids as missing. 
 

There are a lot of crazy extended family dynamics here. 

I can't get the links to work, so thanks for this synopsis.  I agree with her about Colby as I've said before in this forum, and I don't understand why the Woodcocks left JJ where he was after Charles had died, given the circumstances of his death and Lori's ties to his death.

[MsJamieDornan]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I don't understand why the Woodcocks left JJ where he was after Charles had died, given the circumstances of his death and Lori's ties to his death.

What were they supposed to do ?  You cant take a child away from it's legal mother just because you want to.  The police wrongly assumed that Charles death was self defense and it was left at that.

[iMonrey]

I watched a repeat of Endgame on Friday night. It was the story of Rod Covlin and the death of his wife Shele. My DVR description of the episode was "A man murders his wife for her fortune." Hey, DVR: Spoiler alert!! I mean sure, we all know it's the husband, because it's always the husband, but can we at least maintain the pretense of a mystery until I've actually watched the thing??

Anyway, I found it very sad that his children have had no contact with their mother's family.  It does seem odd that the children of a convicted murderer can wind up in the custody of his family instead of the victim's. The laws are kind of screwy in that regard and should probably be addressed. In order for any of Shele's family to have contact with those kids they'd have to play nice with the Covlins who still believe their son is innocent and was wrongly convicted, and have no doubt brain-washed the children into believing that as well. The whole situation is sad.

[Ellee]

@iMonrey

Just out of curiosity who got the wife’s money?  How old were the kids? 
 

Did the kids go where the money went? 

(Sorry about that.  Hope you all understand where that is coming from. )

Edited June 16, 2020 by Ellee

[iMonrey]

They didn't say where the money went. I'm assuming to the children though. The kids are in their teens now, they were around 5 and 3 when their mother was murdered.

[cooksdelight]

Money is the perfect reason for Dad and his family to talk the kids into sticking with them.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 6/13/2020 at 9:02 PM, Melina22 said:

I wonder if we'll ever understand a fraction of how 2 people who did an excellent job of appearing reasonably normal and functional for most of their lives could be capable of committing such evil and then walking around smiling and free of remorse. 

My hope is that they gave the children something that made them go to sleep, so they never knew what happened. 

This is why I am very careful making assumptions about what good people/parents, etc someone is because of what they put out there for  their own benefit.  All those smiling faces for the camera do not mean it’s authentic. There are lots of monsters behind closed doors.  This particular crime of them murdering these two kids really makes me feel physically ill and extremely hostile towards Lori and her husband.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I can't really think about it too much, because, I know it raises my blood pressure. I'm not a violent person at all, but, I feel towards them similar to the way I felt about the two monsters who raped and murdered Dr. Petit's family some years ago in Connecticut.   I was so outraged over it......good people and children TORTURED for no reason.  Those types of killers are in a whole other league imo.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders

[kieyra]

I listen to the Dateline podcast (don’t really watch the show), usually for boring commutes and whatnot. I’m a longtime true crime follower and a lot of times I already know the cases, but it’s something to listen to that isn’t too mentally taxing. I also listen to some COVID19 podcasts. I was super confused when “The Playbook” appeared in my queue and I started playing it, I had to doublecheck which podcast I was listening to. I’m used to mostly hearing four or five year old murder cases, certainly nothing super current (other than major, major cases like the Daybells), definitely nothing about non-crime current events, much less the pandemic.

They certainly didn’t pull any punches. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I was trying to post a link about the latest on the Daybell man, but, having trouble copying the link.  That site must be overloaded.  Will retry in a few.  Anyway, it's saying that Daybell did believe the kids were zombies and had to go. He was selling his visions for money. lol  He predicted a big earthquake that would give them an excuse for the missing children. So BOGUS.  I don't believe it at all and suspect that Lori made much of this BS up herself.  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8428033/Cult-dad-Chad-Daybell-believed-stepchildren-possessed-evil-spirits.html

Edited June 18, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Ellee]

30 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I was trying to post a link about the latest on the Daybell man, but, having trouble copying the link.  That site must be overloaded.  Will retry in a few.  Anyway, it's saying that Daybell did believe the kids were zombies and had to go. He was selling his visions for money. lol  He predicted a big earthquake that would give them an excuse for the missing children. So BOGUS.  I don't believe it at all and suspect that Lori made much of this BS up herself.  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8428033/Cult-dad-Chad-Daybell-believed-stepchildren-possessed-evil-spirits.html

Wasn’t Vallow saying that very same thing about her kids prior to meeting him or were they meeting on the sly for quite a while?

[SunnyBeBe]

8 minutes ago, Ellee said:

Wasn’t Vallow saying that very same thing about her kids prior to meeting him or were they meeting on the sly for quite a while?

That's what Lori's friend said on Dateline, but, I don't recall the time line.

Spoiler

Also, I think that the Hawaii friend said something similar about her ex-husband, which, made me wonder if she was telling the truth.

  

[Ellee]

I know Daybill is a crackpot but wasn’t Vallow killing or having people killed long before him. A couple of husbands here ... a couple of husbands there ... 

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Ellee said:

I know Daybill is a crackpot but wasn’t Vallow killing or having people killed long before him. A couple of husbands here ... a couple of husbands there ... 

It would take a lot to convince me that Lori is not the REAL instigator in all the deaths. 

[cooksdelight]

This is going to make a great movie or mini-series. Just the Dateline footage alone, combined with news reports, the equally-wacky niece, all of the dead relatives who got in her way .... pure gold for an in-depth movie showing whatever Dateline or the news didn’t cover.

I would be terrified to be in a cell next to hers, what would happen to me if I pissed her off?

[Ellee]

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It would take a lot to convince me that Lori is not the REAL instigator in all the deaths. 

That’s how I see it.  
 

I do wonder if the undetermined cause of her sister’s death will end up being another one attributable to her.  It will be interesting to find out if there was an insurance policy.

 

3 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

Snip...

I would be terrified to be in a cell next to hers, what would happen to me if I pissed her off?

Scary part is that it might not even come down to pissing her off.  You might just be having a bad hair day. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Ellee

[iMonrey]

Quote

I would be terrified to be in a cell next to hers, what would happen to me if I pissed her off?

Doing her own killing and getting her hands dirty doesn't seem to be her M.O. I think you'd be safe so long as she doesn't have access to one of her goons. She had her brother kill her husband (seemingly) and probably had her next husband kill the kids.

Also? Child killers - do not fare well in prison. She's the one who should be worried.

Edited June 19, 2020 by iMonrey

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Also? Child killers - do not fare well in prison. She's the one who should be worried.

Very true. And it's certainly not like this case has slipped under the radar or anything. I'm pretty sure the prisoners in whatever prison she'll be going to have some awareness of this case, depending on how closely they follow the news. 

[Melina22]

It's strange that after all this time there's no reports from Tammy's disinterment. I wonder if they do have the reports but are keeping them a secret for now. 

[Ellee]

https://www.khou.com/amp/article/news/crime/true-crime/new-court-documents-what-led-to-the-discovery-of-jj-vallow-tyree-ryan/75-00a72e12-cb2b-4f86-a65b-54023b6fc34a

 

[Ellee]

https://www.ktvb.com/mobile/article/news/crime/missing-rexburg-kids/pca-alex-coxs-phone-was-where-jj-and-tylees-remains-were-found-lori-vallow-thought-they-were-zombies/277-8378ee7e-3e96-4844-9fd6-1609d79aaf7d

 

I’m at a loss for words.  

[Annber03]

Quote

 

Lori’s close friend, Melanie Gibb, told police Lori thought both kids had turned into zombies that were hard to handle and that Chad put the idea in her head.

The records say Gibb also told police Lori believed that once a person was possessed by a zombie, their true spirit goes into a limbo where it’s stuck until the body is killed.

 

Quote

The morning after Joshua "JJ" Vallow was last seen alive, his mother told a family member that he was "acting like a zombie" and had been crawling on the kitchen cabinetry during the night, knocking a picture of Jesus off the refrigerator.

*Blinks*

...what...

Also, my heart goes out to all the people involved in finding and digging up the children's remains, given what they saw. Holy shit. 

Chad and Lori are going to be so sorely disappointed at the afterlife they'll be leading when the time comes. 

[Lsk02]

Good god. They’re going to pin this whole thing on the dead brother. I want to know how they caused his heart attack. I will never believe he died of “natural causes.”  Unless the guilt finally took its toll. 

[cooksdelight]

Dateline is doing a show about this next week, I think. I saw a quick blurb about it while watching tonight’s show.

[Ellee]

I think they are going to try to pin it on Cox too but I don’t think they will get away with it.  And I do believe that Cox was murdered too.  I’m sure that they are looking at that too despite the current ‘natural causes’ ruling. 
 

At this point if I knew ‘anyone’ that was friends or related to these people I’d stay as far away as possible.  Much more than social distancing. As they talk bits and pieces slip to show that they knew more than what they told.  It might have been too late to save the kids but ‘they’ showed who they were supporting.   Two kids are dead and the people that they were supposed to trust to look out for them are responsible.  It could have been totally different. 
 

I wonder how much investigating is being done on the Cox family.   The mother, the remaining sister.  

And on the topic of Vallow and Daybill’s afterlife expectations....can we give them a little hell on earth?   Ok .... a lot of hell on earth. 

 

 

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Ellee said:

And on the topic of Vallow and Daybill’s afterlife expectations....can we give them a little hell on earth?

I'd like to hear the judge tell them that he and the jury have concluded that the two of them are zombies and they will be given the death penalty as a mercy to release their spirits.  Then let them sit and think about it on death row forever.

Dateline is having a special about it Monday night.

[Court]

Just checking in to see if the world has ended. I wonder if they will try for a plea bargain.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, Court said:

Just checking in to see if the world has ended

Don't be silly.  That's not until July 23.

[Court]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Don't be silly.  That's not until July 23.

How could I get the demise of our world wrong? I'll check back on the 23, lol

 

[druzy]

If anyone wants a recap before Monday's Dateline Special here's a timeline:

The major players and timeline in the disappearance of JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan

[druzy]

 

[Ellee]

3 hours ago, druzy said:

 

From the sounds of this, I may owe an apology for jumping to conclusions.   
 

I look forward to the show tonight but would expect that a lot will not be talked about.  

[Melina22]

Part of me is really anxious to see tonight's show, and part of me knows it's going to make me feel awful. Talk about mixed feelings! 

[Ellee]

18 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Part of me is really anxious to see tonight's show, and part of me knows it's going to make me feel awful. Talk about mixed feelings! 

I agree with you on that.  It’s one thing to read about what they did to the kids and totally different when those words are spoken out loud. 

[Melina22]

Well, that was extremely interesting and horrible. It all just seemed so farfetched it couldn't possibly have happened, and yet it did. 

And as the friend said, it was interesting how anyone who got in their way conveniently became a zombie. And how little the death of these "zombies" appeared to affect these allegedly normal people, even when it was one of their children. Utterly baffling. 

Is it just me or did their ex-friend Melanie, while truthful, seem weirdly detached about everything? That seemed like a theme among the people they hung out with. Only JJs grandfather seemed visibly upset. I would have expected Melanie to be consumed with guilt over her failure to warn or save Charles, Tammy and the children, but if she was, it didn't show. More oddness in a stupendously odd story. 

 

[MsJamieDornan]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Is it just me or did their ex-friend Melanie, while truthful, seem weirdly detached about everything?

Yes, her demeanor started to annoy me.  

[Ellee]

Can’t get a divorce but it’s ok to murder people.   SMDH. 
 

MLK???  Again ... at a loss for words. 
 

Wasn’t Alex Cox newly married?  Just by chance was she one of Vallow/Daybill’s ‘disciples’?   Don’t care about him truthfully but each one of these people need to be looked at.  Closely.  Very closely. 

Was Tylee’s dad also a victim?  Hope they are checking his passing also.

Not regarding Vallow/Daybill but their friends/family ....What was missing in their lives that they would fall prey to this kind of bullshit?  Why wouldn’t they be more proactive in ending this early on?   Why do I feel Jim Jones is cheering them on?
 

 

[Ellee]

8 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Well, that was extremely interesting and horrible. It all just seemed so farfetched it couldn't possibly have happened, and yet it did. 

And as the friend said, it was interesting how anyone who got in their way conveniently became a zombie. And how little the death of these "zombies" appeared to affect these allegedly normal people, even when it was one of their children. Utterly baffling. 

Is it just me or did their ex-friend Melanie, while truthful, seem weirdly detached about everything? That seemed like a theme among the people they hung out with. Only JJs grandfather seemed visibly upset. I would have expected Melanie to be consumed with guilt over her failure to warn or save Charles, Tammy and the children, but if she was, it didn't show. More oddness in a stupendously odd story. 

 

One would think Melanie would be consumed with guilt along with their male friend. Can’t remember his name.   One can only hope that their demeanor was due to still assisting the police in some way and trying not to give anything away that they don’t want known. 
 

Hoping too that Melanie the niece’s husband is also working with law enforcement.  

[druzy]

4 hours ago, Ellee said:

Was Tylee’s dad also a victim?  Hope they are checking his passing also.

Tylee's father and Lori's third husband, Joseph Ryan, died in 2018 from an apparent "heart attack". How convenient for the evil Lori.

Joseph Ryan's sister has a web page with a little profile for the cast of characters in this case. Here is what she wrote for Joseph Ryan:

Quote

Who is he: Lori Vallow’s third husband and biological father of Tylee Ryan and adopted father of Colby Ryan

Date of death: 4/3/18

Notable: Alex Cox went to jail for assaulting Ryan with a stun gun and allegedly threatened to kill Ryan (source). Also, Lori Vallow was the only next of kin the ME’s office had at the time of Ryan’s death. She never returned any of their calls or notified me of my brother’s passing, even though we had been friends since 2002 and she had my contact info. There was also no funeral for him. Another family member was contacted by a funeral home more than a month after he had died.

Here is part of another profile from that page (you can't make this stuff up):

Quote

Zulema Pastenes

Who is she: An LDS member and self-professed emotion code practitioner (she listed cuddling services in one of her profiles)

Married to: Alex Cox

Date of marriage: 11/29/19

Notables: Zulema married Alex Cox less than two weeks before his death; Cox took Zulema’s last name; and her 25-year-old son, Joseph Lopez, found Cox unresponsive in the bathroom, didn’t know his last name, and referred to Cox as his mom’s boyfriend, not husband.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by druzy

[Court]

I didn't glean much new from the Dateline special but the cellphone records of the brother convinced me he was the muscle. Plus, Chad to an extent.

But Lori is very clearly the mastermind.

I thought her friend was very detached as well but I also think it may just be her way of dealing with things. I tend to deal with hard/sad things like that similarly and with a dark sense of humor. Not many get it but it keeps me from breaking down. 

[druzy]

 

[Melina22]

The part about Oprah was the only thing in the show that made me laugh. 

That's shocking about Joseph Ryan. She didn't even have the excuse that he was a zombie! I'm running out of ways to say "You can't make this stuff up". 

Her oldest son never appeared last night. I wonder what's happening with him? 

Finally, it makes literally no sense to me that 7 months after Tammy's disinterment, the toxicology report isn't ready. What's that about? 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Melina22

[iMonrey]

Quote

Is it just me or did their ex-friend Melanie, while truthful, seem weirdly detached about everything? 

The friend was into all the same "end times" stuff that Lori and Chad were. She was responsible for bringing Lori into Chad's life. They went to some sort of end times convention where Chad was speaking. 

I don't want to go off into a tangent about this, but I feel this whole story shows what a slippery slope it is when you start believing in weird stuff. I mean, Melanie (Melody?) was right there with Lori and Chad, up to a point. But she's the one sitting there with Keith like she's the "normal" one. It's like "yeah, I believe in this crazy thing, but that other crazy thing? Oh, that's too crazy." 

[TVbitch]

I agree @iMonrey, Melanie is just an example of how seemingly "normal" totally deluded people can come off. If you just met her you would think Melanie was smart and well spoken, and did not appear in any way crazypants. Just like Melanie said Laurie came off whenever her poor dead ex tried to have her committed. Just like the friend in Hawaii. 

 

[Josiemae]

Everyone involved in this case is despicable. I'd like to wipe those smug grins off both the friend and the niece.  WTF is wrong with these people?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Josiemae

[iMonrey]

I forgot to add, Melanie's friend David looked just like Michael Palin. 

I can't believe she had the nerve to say she was "betrayed" by Lori. Let's see, the kids are dead, the husband and wife are dead and the brother is dead but, oh yeah, you're the injured party here. Granted, Keith was baiting her to say that but it irritates me the way she was glad-handled just so they could get an interview out of her.

There really wasn't anything new to be gleaned from this update. I wanted to hear how they cops were tipped off to the location of the graves but they're still not talking.