John Bates: Martyr

[Rhondinella]

Have disliked him since the end of season 2.  Which is too bad because I usually like Brendan Coyle and his characters.

[David T. Cole]

He's the worst but he gets so much screen time. I feel like they should give him the spin off show Julian Fellowes obviously wants to write for him just to remove him from the DA equation.

[theycallmemama]

Ugh, yes. Send him and Boring Anna off to live in a cottage in the country together. They can be in one or two episodes a season if they must. But he's horrible and together they're dull. 

[spottedreptile]

I like Anna way better than her husband. I can relate to Anna, she's feisty and has a sharp wit, at least she was until Mr. Righteous Raincloud turned up. She's the one character I would like to see having an affair, it would cheer me up considerably.

[Rhondinella]

Mr. Righteous Raincloud

 

Hee!  Love it.  Stealing it.

[SnarkySheep]

The main thing I would fear, were I Anna (or those who are concerned about her well-being) is the eventual possibility of his turning in anger toward her. Yes, yes, we know - he's totally in love with her, she's turned his life around, she's his reason for living, etc. But as we've seen on numerous occasions, John Bates is capable of incredible anger and violence. What would happen if that feeling for Anna were to change?

[jellywager]

I love the title of this thread b/c I thought I was the only person who dislikes him. How come in season 1 his limp was so bad he bought that awful leg brace and now it looks like he barely needs the cane? I don't recall him limping or walking with a cane in prison. I fail to see why Anna is attracted to him. And why is he so loyal to this family that he will fall on his sword for them? 

[helenamonster]

I realize it's an unpopular opinion nowadays, but I still have a soft spot for Bates. I have fondness for the early days of he and Anna, and I also see him as an extension of Anna, who is my favorite character. Even when I get so unbelievably frustrated with him, I remember that he, for whatever reason, makes Anna happy, and if he were to die or go back to prison or whatever, then she would be a sad panda for the rest of forever and I don't want that.

 

However, I agree that the rape story did/is doing him no favors, but he's, like, fifth on my list of the things I hate about that story. Yes, he definitely got more to do with it than Anna did, but tbh, it seemed like Mrs. Hughes did too, so I don't see it as a gender issue.

 

I love the title of this thread b/c I thought I was the only person who dislikes him. How come in season 1 his limp was so bad he bought that awful leg brace and now it looks like he barely needs the cane? I don't recall him limping or walking with a cane in prison. I fail to see why Anna is attracted to him. And why is he so loyal to this family that he will fall on his sword for them? 

 

He definitely had a limp in prison. There were several scenes of the prisoners walking in circles outside (I guess that's how they got their exercise) and he was limping pretty heavily. I assume that they wouldn't have allowed him to have his cane in there with him because he could have used it as a weapon against the guards or other inmates, or possibly smuggled something inside of it if it was hollow. But I don't know protocol about that kind of thing, past or present on either side of the pond, so I can't say for sure.

 

As for his loyalty to the family, I think that goes both ways, especially in Robert's case. Robert is loyal to Bates because of however he helped him during the war, so he gave him the valet job. Bates was grateful for said job, because I think it was mentioned he was pretty much broke and having trouble finding work as a convicted felon. So their gratitude/loyalty has gone back and forth for the entire run of the show, which is continuity I really appreciate. The same thing has happened with Anna and Mary. I've always seen Bates and Anna both as the downstairs counterparts of the toffs they dress, as well as the romantic servant counterpart to Mary and Matthew. Not necessarily in personality, but in the way their stories were structured (before Matthew's death, that is).

[Athena]

I find Bates incredibly boring, but Brendan Coyle won so much favour from me after his roles in Larkrise and North & south. He is the only reason I don't hate the character.

The murder plot line was bad, but it wasn't as awful as the prison storyline. That didn't even feel like the same show.

[Mrsjumbo]

Hee! Love it. Stealing it.

Mr. Righteous Raincloud. This made me LOL!

Edited July 24, 2014 by Mrsjumbo

[3jt]

I agree with helenamonster, I can't help but love Mr. Bates and Anna. I understand why other people don't care for the character, he can come off as an ass. I just think that he tries really hard to do the "right" thing, and sometimes you have to get your hands a little dirty getting there. I believe that he seen enough and been through enough injustices in life that he feels that sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

[AZChristian]

I love Brendan Coyle, so I love Bates.

 

I once sent his picture to my daughter and said, "Don't you think he resembles Dad when Dad was younger?"

 

Her response:  "Well, if I squint my eyes almost shut and have about 3 shots . . . maybe a little."

 

I don't get no respect.

[Mrsjumbo]

This is very silly. I don't know why, but to me he resembles Disney's Winnie the Pooh. Not just body shape but his face too!

[DeepRunner]

Bates is probably my favorite character in the cast (feeling very much in the minority here, as many if not most members of Downtonia have grown painfully tired of him). He is a complex character with a background that doesn't get revealed much, and there is obviously his dark side that makes him an antihero. Brendan Coyle does an excellent job playing him.

 

 

And why is he so loyal to this family that he will fall on his sword for them?

 

I don't know that he is loyal to the family so much as he is loyal to ROBERT, his commanding office in the Boer War, and the officer he served as batman. Bates has shown his faithfulness to Robert, and Robert has done so to Bates.

 

People sigh and shake their heads at Bates, and truly, he has been ill-served by the Vera story line, the time in prison, and, yes, his proximity to the Bus O' Justice. And his trying to save Thomas from unemployment at the end of S3 was...mmm...not believable. Seriously, Bates should have been allowed to leave Thomas "basting on the grill," so to speak.

 

But he is more real than the stuffed-shirt Carson, not as conniving as Thomas, and the Al Neri to Robert's Michael. I hope we get more of his life story before Downton ends, and that he and Anna have some prolonged happiness. As in, more than one episode's worth.

[helenamonster]

Especially because, imo, they're so enjoyable to watch when there isn't a dark rain cloud hanging above their story. I know the old adage goes that happy television couples are boring couples, but that doesn't have to be true. The actors work well with each other and the characters had a really good banter way back before Vera darkened their doorstep and set the ball rolling on their misfortune. I really wouldn't mind if they were given a lighter, happier story for awhile. In fact, I'd welcome it with open arms. Unfortunately, with the Green thing still unresolved, that won't be happening anytime soon.

[ZulaMay]

I liked Bates in S1 and S2.  In S3 he went way downhill.  The prison story was boring as Hell, which didn't help.  Then he arrived home and snarled at Jimmy to stop being a "Big Girl's Blouse" about Thomas kissing him in his sleep.  That really rubbed me the wrong way.  The guy just got out of prison and was welcomed right back like a returning hero.  He doesn't even KNOW Jimmy, and he's talking to him like that?  When Jimmy had a legitimate complaint?

 

I think he's a patronizing martyr.  And that he also treated Anna badly in the rape episode when he barked at her in front of the whole staff because she was playing a card game.  He really is an albatross around her neck.

 

Way back in S2 someone described him as a man limping around looking for a sword to fall on.  I thought that was perfect.

Edited July 31, 2014 by ZulaMay

[ZoloftBlob]

Then he arrived home and snarled at Jimmy to stop being a "Big Girl's Blouse" about Thomas kissing him in his sleep.  That really rubbed me the wrong way.  The guy just got out of prison and was welcomed right back like a returning hero.  He doesn't even KNOW Jimmy, and he's talking to him like that?  When Jimmy had a legitimate complaint?

 

I thought this was more of an example of bad writing coupled with wish fulfillment about the open mindedness of people in the 1920s. What Thomas did to Jimmy wasn't, in my opinion, a cute little sitcom moment. If Thomas had misinterpreted a woman, and hopped into bed with her and rubbed her down, even in modern times, he'd be on the hook for attempted rape.

 

Yes, O'Brien set both Jimmy and Thomas up, but Thomas ran with it in a really predatory fashion. And frankly, while Lord Grantham might have fond remembrances of his time in the showers of Eton, Bates always struck me as disliking Thomas in part because Thomas was gay. And because Thomas is a sleazy manipulative tool, but the "not a man's man" thing seemed part of Bates's dislike so Bates really should have been jumping for joy over how cleanly and neatly Thomas was being excised from the household.

 

I'm not suggesting Bates is anti gay, btw, just that he would consider it all a part of Thomas's flawed character. Carson came off more sympathetic to Thomas so Bates suddenly going to the wall for Thomas just came off strange.

[ZulaMay]

True.  But my problem was, he could have gone to the wall for Thomas without being so nasty and scornful to Jimmy about it.  Like I said, he had just returned from prison and barely knew Jimmy.  Maybe his position in the household is above Jimmy's, but he still shouldn't treat him like that.  I thought he was being a patronizing bully.

[Mrsjumbo]

It's funny because we are looking at these issues with 2014 eyes, not 1920 eyes. I doubt anyone in 1920 would really say to Thomas "anyone can see you were born that way" as Carson did.

Bates annoys me because he is so pessimistic. Even in the early episodes he always sees the glass half empty. And he never defends himself, just sighs like a martyr.

[ZoloftBlob]

True.  But my problem was, he could have gone to the wall for Thomas without being so nasty and scornful to Jimmy about it.  Like I said, he had just returned from prison and barely knew Jimmy.  Maybe his position in the household is above Jimmy's, but he still shouldn't treat him like that.  I thought he was being a patronizing bully.

 

Oh agreed, and it's not the first time he's played grumpy old dad to the younger staff. He does it to Anna the night she is raped (though I think that was in part because Anna was uncharacteristically flirty, and he's been judgemental and nasty to Daisy at times. Not without reason but for a guy who isn't a saint, I agree he can be quite sanctimonious.

 

I had more of problem with how he treated Jimmy because when I look at it from 21st century eyes, it's not a crime for Thomas to be gay, but it is a crime for Thomas to sexually assault an unwilling partner, so Bates telling Jimmy to not be such a priss about attempted rape jars. I mean, this is the second time we've seen Thomas do this (the first was with Pamuk).

 

I actually like Bates but I think they need to do something with him other than have him brood around the house. I hated the prison story line for the same reason I hated the "Matthew is paralyzed" storyline because I knew both storylines were there to increase the man pain.

 

Agree btw that Carson's comment to Thomas was very 21st century. If Thomas was a more likeable character, like WIlliam for example, I could see the household being quietly tolerant but really.

[ZulaMay]

I hated the way he talked to his wife in front of the other household staff that night.  And yes, he's been patronizing to Daisy too. She was misbehaving but he does it in such a demeaning way.  I am not sure he should even have kids, frankly.  Not if that is how he "disciplines" people.

[Badger]

There really isn't anything "21st century" about Carson and his attitude towards Thomas's sexuality.  The idea that people could be born with all sorts of traits -negative and positive - was not unknown at the time 

 

I thought the attitude of Bates had to do with what I call "the British sense of fair play."   Bates did not like Thomas but the idea that he could lose his job and not get a reference for something he couldn't help probably struck him as unfair.  Remember by the standards of the day,Jimmy was being "a big girl's blouse" about it.  Also, everything that was done was about Thomas leaving with a good reference so he could get a job somewhere else.  If he had known that Thomas would end up staying and getting a promotion, he may not have worked as hard in helping him.

[ZoloftBlob]

There really isn't anything "21st century" about Carson and his attitude towards Thomas's sexuality.  The idea that people could be born with all sorts of traits -negative and positive - was not unknown at the time

 

I don't think someone in 1920, someone in particular who was horrified at the idea of anyone knowing he was once a stage performer, would be as understanding as Carson was. I mean, he was going to let Thomas leave with a good reference (until Jimmy was a big girl's blouse about it) and not blather it all over?

 

This, the same household where Edna was summarily dismissed for having sex with a man? Thomas, the disliked, arrogant, prone to theft and nasty behavior Thomas gets a "you were born that way" pass from Carson, the same guy who is horrified if the silver isn't properly stored?  It felt unrealistic to me.

 

Frankly, Bates struck me as out of character in being unwilling to let Thomas dangle on that hook. I also don't think by the day's standard that Jimmy was overreacting  - this was a time where homosexual men were arrested for less. When we apply our 21st century sensibilities, of course it's appalling (although I still would argue that in 2014 a pretty good assault case could come from one man sneaking into another man's room and getting into bed with him wouldn't be treated as merry hijinks from a legal standpoint) but the fact that everyone is so blase about the fact that Thomas is doing something they consider close to evil just rang false. I could see Bates not pressing the point, but actively conniving to help Thomas? Nope.

[Mrsjumbo]

Thomas did swear to Mr. Carson that nothing happened, & Mrs Hughes put a bug in Mr Carson's ear that Jimmy was a flirt & Thomas misread the signals. That's the only reason I can see that Carson was easy on him.

Edna actually did have sex & then came up with her pregnancy blackmail scheme. Not the same situation.

[ZoloftBlob]

I was thinking of the maid (Ethel?) who got pregnant who was shown the door and told repeatedly to lie in the bed her whore vagina had made her, not Edna, who ultimately was fired for something similar. (This show has a lot of women with names that start with E that have premarital sex).

[michkabibbles]

Oh, boo! I just started season 1, and Bates if one of my favorite characters. It's a shame to see he seems to go downhill as the series goes on.

[DianeDobbler]

Brendan Coyle really gets on my nerves in martyr mode and in romantic lead mode. I cringe. I like him when he's involved in someone else's story, which is why to date his helping Thomas out of the fix he was in with O'Brien/Jimmy remains my favorite of his storylines. I think his line delivery is sharper and smart and warmer. When he's a martyr, the acting is too wet. When he's a romantic lead, it doesn't work for me and I can't figure why - not looks though, because I don't mind with other character-actors.

 

I don't think he particularly has any chemistry with Joanna Froggatt, and some of what bugs me in him bugs me in her, so maybe it's the combination that does it to me. Froggatt's anachronistic eyebrows have bugged me since S1. Most recently I liked when he was helping Anna get a bedroom sorted out.

 

I guess maybe I think he's dreadful with subtext, which is a strange problem for an actor to have or for me to believe I perceive in an actor. But when he's on the level, and his character is on the level (and not romantic), I can enjoy Bates. When he's macho, pissy, threatening or romantic, he just comes off smarmy to me and I'd rather take a pass.

[ZulaMay]

Me too.  JoFro really needs to get another person to do her eyebrows.  They're over-plucked, uneven, and kind of tacky.  It's obvious Michelle Dockery has her eyebrows done too but it's a much more subtle, symmetrical, and high-end job.  I have no idea why the costume/style department doesn't do something about JoFro.  I know the actresses were told NOT to do their eyebrows.  They have said so.  And JBF didn't do hers at all (you can tell they're natural just by looking).  I don't think LC does either.  Again, MD does but it's artful enough to work.  

 

And I can't stand Bates when he's any of the above either.  Smarmy and creepy comes to mind for me too.  I don't find him good-looking, although I might if he lost thirty pounds (about five of them in his face).  But a better personality would help enormously.  I found Harold Levinson more attractive and Paul Giamatti is no looker.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ZulaMay

[meep.meep]

I hope when this thing is finally over, that Fellowes has it that Bates secretly was behind all the evil things that happened.  He did kill Vera and rapist valet!  He got rid of Grigson in Germany.  He caused Matthew's car crash.  He convinced the Earl that the other doctor was right about how to treat Sibyl. He infected Lavinia with the Spanish Flu even if he had to do it from prison!  He probably talked Robert into all those schemes that lost all Cora's money.   He sank the Lusitania!

 

It's all been Bates Bates Bates!  He's pure evil.

[Diane M]

Bates isn't evil.  He didn't kill the nasty Vera, and I do not believe he killed Greene, although he may have thought about it and decided that if he were caught, it would hurt Anna.  I've been a Bates/Anna shipper since Season 1 and I really want them to be happy, have a couple of kids and buy that small hotel he talked about.  I hope Fellowes writes that for them in the final season.  

[Constantinople]

Aren't martyrs supposed to die?

[SusanSunflower]

I remain very fond of Brendan Coyle. I am American, which I think makes a difference, but I've seen him in so many other parts -- sigh -- playing so many paragons and other, less paragon parts when he was younger. He's managed to realize he's not chick-magnet young finally and dropped all the winking glances, finally. I was dismayed by him -- actor -- in earlier seasons. He's not responsible for Fellowes' writing.

I caught a glimpse of him this week -- Season 5 episode 2 -- and he looked very well, lighter, more spontaneous, but it made me realize how far into the background he and his character have drifted. The "Mysterious Death of Mr. Green" is being carried forward by policemen and Mrs. Hughes' dismayed expression -- while the audience at home groans. Think how they would hate Bates if he were carrying that part of the story.

It's funny when you get older -- not even very old -- when you realize that the "older men" you thought very-hot in your 20's are now simply old -- and that someone, not so old, say Tom Selleck or Brendan Coyle, possibly still attractive to you, would cause your daughter to make rude noises if mentioned.  So it goes. I had moment of hope that either Bates will NOT be dragged through the mud again or Coyle might be about to do something else in some big-surprise-move (since he'd slimmed while everyone had seemed to bulk up, with age, passage of time, eating during off-season or by outfitting for continuity) 

Edited January 18, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[mightycrone]

I cannot be partial to Bates, because Brendan Coyle so resembles an ex- bf that it nearly caused a gasp to see him onscreen.  Like Anna, I was quite a bit younger when I was in a relationship with "my" Bates.  I want to scream "Stop being noble.  Be your age and have fun--this man will suck the very life (youth) out of you".  All in all, I'm disappointed with the men of DA-- they are starting to seem less dimensional, just like the women.  

 

Did it take the life-draining Bates for me to realize that I'm "just not that into you, DA?"