S08.E10: Torn and Frayed

[Demented Daisy]

Dean and Castiel try to rescue Samandriel from Crowley. Sam tries to decide whether or not he should continue hunting or be with Amelia.

 

 

Poor Samandriel.  

 

Were TPTB breaking in a new team of writers that just didn't understand the show at all?

[DittyDotDot]

Trying to focus on the good again...Kevin and Cas are mildly humorous in this episode. That should do it.

[AwesomO4000]

Gratuitous torture is gratuitous, and then Samandriel gets killed by Castiel.. oops I mean "dies" (TM Castiel season 9)... Haaate.

[rue721]

Wow, this is maybe the worst episode of Supernatural that I've ever seen. The music at one point was a lone oboe and there were some swelling strings in there. TERRIBLE.

Edited December 16, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

There is no way this was worse than Man's Best Friend with Benefits

[rue721]

There is no way this was worse than Man's Best Friend with Benefits

 

Touche! Thankfully, that episode is so mythically bad that I knew to avoid it! But this one was covert-terrible, and I was completely unprepared for how bad it was.

 

I think the turning point from "bad SPN episode" to "is this an SPN episode?!!!" was when Amelia was wondering around the bedroom in a gigantic plaid shirt making overly complicated plans with Sam for meeting up with him at some *other* time and place in order to have The Relationship Talk at *that* time and place on the off-chance that they both even showed up there. That's when I had to make some taquitos and stop doing my work to rubberneck until the episode was over, anyway.

Edited December 16, 2014 by rue721

[AwesomO4000]

Touche! Thankfully, that episode is so mythically bad that I knew to avoid it! But this one was covert-terrible, and I was completely unprepared for how bad it was.

 

I am assuming then that you didn't read my above comment of "haaaate" before watching.   ; )  That pretty much summed up how I felt about this episode.

 

I think the turning point from "bad SPN episode" to "is this an SPN episode?!!!" was when Amelia was wondering around the bedroom in a gigantic plaid shirt making overly complicated plans with Sam for meeting up with him at some *other* time and place in order to have The Relationship Talk at *that* time and place on the off-chance that they both even showed up there. That's when I had to make some taquitos and stop doing my work to rubberneck until the episode was over, anyway.

 

And how about the pointless torture? Okay the other pointless torture besides what you described above ; ) where Crowley endlessly tortures Samandriel... only for him to die anyway when Castiel kills him. Really? The poor guy had to live through all that just to get killed in the end anyway? What was wrong with these writers?

Edited December 16, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

And how about the pointless torture? Okay the other pointless torture besides what you described above ; ) where Crowley endlessly tortures Samandriel... only for him to die anyway when Castiel kills him. Really? The poor guy had to live through all that just to get killed in the end anyway? What was wrong with these writers?

 

Just giving us what we want! Pandering to the fans! Which is as much torture as possible, of course.

Edited December 16, 2014 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

What's happening...WHAT IS HAPPENING? When did this show become a out-and-out soap opera? So, I think I now understand why Sam so desperately wants to stay with Amelia...she saves him a lot of time and energy by finishing his sentences. I see it all so clearly now. OMG, the stuff with Sam and Amelia, seriously, who thought that dialogue was worthy of any screen time? And the music, ugh. It was really hard to sit through those scenes.

 

I thought I'd be relieved when we flipped over the Dean and Castiel, which to a certain extent I was. But a lot of that was slow and boring and...I don't know...not good either. And then the band gets together to boringly skulk around a warehouse tagging sigils...it was so very melodramatically shot, yuck! And all the torture that seems totally unnecessary. I get what they were trying to do with the torture and Castiel and all, I just think it wasn't done very well.

 

And then the end breakup sadness. I don't know what show I'm watching anymore. I know, I've said that a lot since starting S8, but seriously, what show am I watching?

 

 

There is no way this was worse than Man's Best Friend with Benefits

 

I'm saying it, yes this is worse than Man's Best Friend with Benefits. While MBFWB is bad, its also easily forgotten and skipped. I'm actually more offended by this one being a myth heavy episode and part of the whole. No matter what angle I look at this episode, it's just terrible, IMO.

[Demented Daisy]

Trying to get through this episode today and... ugh.  The only likable character in the entire episode is Samandriel and, surprise surprise, he dies in the end.

 

One bright moment from Cas:

 

We need everything, Dean. And I need both of you, as you say, to stow your crap. Can you do that?

[Goldmoon]

Since I am binge-watching I am not having such a hard time with Season Eight.  I hated that Samandrial got ganked and that Cas is being controlled, but why did they waste all the minutes all this season on the non-romance of Samelia?  It was clearly nothing special, so all the drama about his choices was not.  As for the "soap opera" comment, this has always been a soap opera, but was done far better when the drama was between the brothers in the first six seasons and with others like Crowley and Alastair when done well.

[GirlyGeek]

Even binge watching and moving through these as quickly as possible isn't making this good.

 

I tried watching and pretending it was Soulless Sam, back for a few episodes only... but then even Soulless Sam wasn't this big of a douche.

 

Sam yelling and whinging about Benny (omg how he sounded like a brat) and telling Dean he has to give up Benny or give up Sam...?  What?!  Ok, why?  How is Dean having a friend in Benny actually affecting your life, Sam?  Really?  ugh

 

I hate Amelia.  And I can't even describe how much I hate Sam and Amelia's little affair.  Ick

 

So moral of the story is... Dean and Sam can only have each other?  Ew and why?

I don't like that Dean giving up Benny/not helping Benny was put on the same level as Sam *not having an affair with a married woman* (who was horrible to begin with).

 

There was next to nothing I can like about this episode.  When does it get better??!

[DittyDotDot]

There was next to nothing I can like about this episode.  When does it get better??!

 

Heh, my cynical side says it never gets better, but realistically, the next one is better IMO. There's actually two or possibly three episodes after this I find acceptable and for the most part most of the sniping and bitching are over with now...I did say for the most part, right?

[supposebly]

I like Kevin.

 

I don't like Sam and Dean at the moment.

 

Torture porn, ....Did they have to pad this with extended torture scenes? Just yuck.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, it didnt' suck as  bad as the last ep (Citizen Fang.)  That's something at least.  Not really a good way to start off a review/commentary, but that's about as much good as I can say about this one.  I watched it one this past weekend.  Thanks to @AwesomO4000's awesome (see what I did there?) suggestion, I had my alcohol ready.  Good thing too.  

Good grief: poor Alfie.  I liked that kid.  I don't understand what good having Cas kill Samandriel did when he'd already spilled the secrets to Crowley.  

After watching this ep, it's a wonder that anyone (viewers) likes Crowley at all.  

Speaking of spilling secrets, I think Dean should have kept the demon doc alive for a bit and gotten what he heard out of him - by any means possible.  I would have been okay with that.  

The flippity flopping from last ep was back.  It must have been catching too.  Maybe they caught something down in Louisiana - those bayous breed mosquitoes and they carry diseases, you know - cause Dean even flip flopped by the end of the ep.  After all the 'Benny is my brother' stuff since the beginning of the season, now it's 'Don't let the door hit where guck split you'? WTF?

Was Benny having problems staying off the live humans?  That's the vibe I got at first, but then we see him drinking the blood packet, and I'm not sure.  Potentially a bad move for Dean to cut him out of his life if being friends with Dean helped him not kill people.  But then again, that ain't Dean's responsibility, is it?  Like any addict, Benny needs to take responsibility and ownership of his own actions.  

At least Dean showed some integrity (not that it surprised me that Dean has integrity, don't get me wrong.  I can't think of how else to phrase it right now) with that in that he didn't ask Sam to do anything that he wasn't willing to do either - be all in or all out.  (Did anyone but me want to sing "Are you in or out" from Aladdin and the King of Thieves?  No?  I seriously needed a little levity at this point...)

Angry Lady (AL) even flip flopped.  Her flip flop made me lose whatever little burgeoning respect for her there was.  She waits until her husband leaves town - to work to help support his family (her) no less - and then hightails it over to Sam for a little extra marital action.  I get that it was Sam (I mean it was SAM - come on!) but WTF?  She'd made the choice to be with her husband and then...not?  No, I got no sympathy for cheaters.  She didn't have the decency to tell her husband first - to be upfront about it - so good riddance.  

I don't even understand the relationship between Sam and AL from Sam's POV either, at this point.  (What am I supposed to feel about this?  Am I supposed to feel sorry for Sam?  Cause I don't really.  He could do so much better.)  But here is this "woman he loves" (as he said to Dean) who told him that if he stayed, she'd leave her husband for him (and she did - or was going to anyway.  I think.  Or maybe she just wanted to keep Sam on the side?)  Yet he completely ditched her at the end.  Yep, nothing says I Love You like not showing up without a word.  Dick move, Sam.  I think it had something to do with the 'all in or all out' speech she gave him (echoed by Dean later, but I think the creaky wheels in Sam's dusty brain started turning at this point).  Like he couldn't handle even the thought of his two worlds colliding (the hunting world and his 'normal' world) so he had to leave one or the other behind and he chose to leave her behind.  But that doesn't make sense to me.  It's the flip flop thing.  Early in the Sam-back he didn't want to give up their relationship because it was 'right' even if it meant going to hell - which was a REALLY odd thing for Sam to say, considering, you know, he's BEEN to hell...(WTF?) - but okay, that was before Dean came back so at that point he didn't have to choose between hunting and 'normal'.  But then he was already back to hunting when he ditched Martin and the job when he thought AL needed him.  Then suddenly - hey, you can't keep each life compartmentalized any more Sammy-Boy  - and THUD!   AL bites the dust.  

WTF.

Seems to me, if he loved her - REALLY loved her - he would have at least tried.  I wonder if he was afraid that she would not love him back if she found out who he really was and what he really did?  It's easier sometimes to avoid rejection by not even trying.  And I think that's what Sam did here.

On second (or third) thought, maybe it really was the husband thing.  Or at least the husband thing was a contributing factor.  Because even though Sam slept with AL in the motel room while decent, clueless Don was out of town, he didn't look to happy about it in the afterward.  He looked pretty miserable.  So maybe Sam had a bout of guilty conscious over being 'the other man' and that aided his decision to dump AL?   I don't know.  Like I said, I don't understand it at all.  

What was that line of AL's about "It's official, I hate motel rooms"?  WTF?  She didn't seem to hate motel rooms when she was banging Sam before Don came back in the picture.  Why would she hate motel rooms now?  Here's a clue for you honey: it's not the motel room's fault that you are a dirty rotten cheating spouse.  And it's not Sam's fault either.  Own up, bitch.

That's about all I got on this one.  The torture went on WAY too long.  As did the Sam and AL stuff.  So was the message supposed to be that neither one can have outside relationships because they have to be "all in or all out"?  Cause I personally think that is Bullshit.  I know that's the way the show rolls, but I still call BS.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Forgot to say:I was never too impressed with the actress playing AL.  But the "I hate motel rooms" scene definitely sealed it.  That was so flat.  There was just nothing about her there I could like or for which I could feel even a tad of sympathy that she was torn between two wonderful men.  I just didn't buy it at all.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Seems to me, if he loved her - REALLY loved her - he would have at least tried.  I wonder if he was afraid that she would not love him back if she found out who he really was and what he really did?  It's easier sometimes to avoid rejection by not even trying.  And I think that's what Sam did here.

Perhaps Sam finally realized he didn't really love her as much as he loved the idea of her, or what she represented? In some ways, I think it's a lot like Dean and Lisa. I think Dean cared for Lisa--as I'm sure Sam did for Amelia--but it was more the idea of how she and Ben represented family to Dean that drew him to her, IMO. For me, that's kinda the similar thing with Sam and Amelia. I think she represented that normal life he thought he wanted as a kid, but that life wasn't actually all that fulfilling when he finally got to live it.

22 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

After watching this ep, it's a wonder that anyone (viewers) likes Crowley at all.  

Well, I love Mark Sheppard, but I've been over Crowley since S6. IMO, Crowley is best when he's working his own game in the background and no one notices him. The character just makes more of an impact on me the less he's actually around. But that's probably true of most antagonists for me. I just find the more we hear them spout on, the less frightening they appear to be. I will say, though, there's good Crowley stuff coming up. And, I mean good, but also horrible...you'll see what I mean. ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps Sam finally realized he didn't really love her as much as he loved the idea of her, or what she represented? In some ways, I think it's a lot like Dean and Lisa. I think Dean cared for Lisa--as I'm sure Sam did for Amelia--but it was more the idea of how she and Ben represented family to Dean that drew him to her, IMO. For me, that's kinda the similar thing with Sam and Amelia. I think she represented that normal life he thought he wanted as a kid, but that life wasn't actually all that fulfilling when he finally got to live it.

Yeah, I agree with this.  And thinking of it this way is going to help reconcile the whole debacle in my head going forward.  :)  (However, I think there was more between Lisa and Dean than Sam and AL).  I wonder though - if it hadn't been for Don coming back and being in the picture- if Sam still would have ditched AL in the end?  He didn't even leave her the first time until after she found out Don was alive.  I really think that a large part of what wasn't so fulfilling to him was breaking up a marriage. That's not the normal life he wants.  (Yes, for all his other faults, I want Sam to be honorable in that respect at least.)  

Edited June 27, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
reconcilliation

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I agree with this.  (However, I think there was more between Lisa and Dean than Sam and AL).  I wonder though - if it hadn't been for Don coming back and being in the picture- if Sam still would have ditched AL in the end?  He didn't even leave her the first time until after she found out Don was alive.  I really think that a large part of what wasn't so fulfilling to him was breaking up a marriage. That's not the normal life he wants.  (Yes, for all his other faults, I want Sam to be honorable in that respect at least.)  

To me, it really didn't have so much to do with Don, but with Amelia. I'm sure Sam didn't want to break up a marriage, but also, that marriage wasn't being broken due to Sam. Amelia was obviously not happy in her marriage with Don, no matter how much she said she loved him, in order for her to say she'd leave him for Sam. Sam wasn't asking anything of Amelia; Amelia was asking things of Sam and I'm not sure it was actually about Sam as much as it was about escaping her life a little longer. I mean, that's what Sam and Amelia did for each other, allowed each other to hide away from their lives. I just don't think Sam would've left her in the first place if it really was the life he had built up in my head.

[catrox14]

I'm gonna defend Samelia  here a little bit.

I never really judged  her or Sam for the struggle they had with ending their relationship.

I think her and Sam's situation is far more complicated than the show could really give proper attention.

IMO Samelia was a screwy relationship born of mutual grief, loss and need more than 'love" or being "in love" with each other as much as in 'need' with each other.

Amelia  fully believed her husband was KIA. I think she buried herself in her work as a veterinarian and refused to attach herself to closely to the town by living in a motel room. She finally allowed herself to try and be with Sam and maybe the need was growing into love when they moved in together.So IMO once she and Sam moved in together her hating motel rooms was because it reminded her of when she was IMO unhappy, unsettled and grieving.

I think Sam wanted to do the honorable thing but was still too attached to her in some way.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

To me, it really didn't have so much to do with Don, but with Amelia. I'm sure Sam didn't want to break up a marriage, but also, that marriage wasn't being broken due to Sam. Amelia was obviously not happy in her marriage with Don, no matter how much she said she loved him, in order for her to say she'd leave him for Sam. Sam wasn't asking anything of Amelia; Amelia was asking things of Sam and I'm not sure it was actually about Sam as much as it was about escaping her life a little longer. I mean, that's what Sam and Amelia did for each other, allowed each other to hide away from their lives. I just don't think Sam would've left her in the first place if it really was the life he had built up in my head.

Oh it absolutely had more to do with AL than Don.  And, I think perhaps, more to do with AL than Sam even.  The marriage wasn't being broken up due to Sam when he and AL first got together because as far as anyone knew, Don was dead at that time.  But after Don came back from the dead?  That's when Sam decided to peace out and allow them time to reconnect.  Now, yes, after that, it's on AL because she is the one who showed up at Sam's motel room.  Sam even offered to leave right away.  And this is where, I agree with you that I think it was about AL escaping her life a little longer.  I don't know if it was AL was unhappy in her marriage with Don.  I certainly don't think there is any reason to think that they had an unhappy marriage before his "death" based on how she mourned him.  I think she was confused.  I think many in her situation would be.  To some extent, she'd put her feelings for Don aside - moved on from his 'death' with Sam - and now BAM!  Don's alive.  Talk about having the rug pulled out from under you - again.  What does she feel for her husband now?  Does she still love him?  The way she did before? Before she met Sam?  She told Sam that she thought she was happy until Sam showed back up - and obviously brought up feelings she thought she'd put behind her (again).  That seems like the same thing she did with Don.  And that's one reason I didn't have any respect for her after that scene.  She seemed content with which ever one was present at the time.

But as far as Sam...I don't know.  I still don't know if Sam would have left in the first place if Don hadn't turned up alive.  I mean, they'd moved in together and he was looking all content and domesticated, meeting the dad, etc.  Maybe he would have left eventually, but I think Don coming back definitely expedited that.  And to be fair to AL (ugh!  Do I have to?) Sam is the one who sped back to Texas to check on her - and I believe he was even doing a little internet stalking earlier in the ep or last ep.  Plus, even after he said he'd leave; he didn't.  Did he want her to make the decision this time (like he made it initially) for him to leave in order to take the burden off of him?  I wonder if that was why it was easier for him to just not show back up: it's a decision by default.  

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think her and Sam's situation is far more complicated than the show could really give proper attention.

IMO Samelia was a screwy relationship born of mutual grief, loss and need more than 'love" or being "in love" with each other as much as in 'need' with each other.

Amelia  fully believed her husband was KIA. I think she buried herself in her work as a veterinarian and refused to attach herself to closely to the town by living in a motel room. She finally allowed herself to try and be with Sam and maybe the need was growing into love when they moved in together.So IMO once she and Sam moved in together her hating motel rooms was because it reminded her of when she was IMO unhappy, unsettled and grieving.

I think Sam wanted to do the honorable thing but was still too attached to her in some way.

I can actually agree with all this too.  As you said, it was far more complicated than shown.  And screwy.  Very screwy.  And I don't mean that in a good way.  :)  It was just a mess all the way around, from what I can tell.  And what good did it do?  What was the point of it?  Did anyone learn anything from it - other than as I postulated - that Sam and Dean can only have each other?  Like I said: I call BS on that.  

[catrox14]

From the discussion in the LARP thread re Benny being an addict and the use of animal blood instead of human blood.

@DittyDotDot reminded about animal blood as an option for vampires from the Lenore episode in s2. So I went back to do some reading about other episodes that mention animal blood.  Lenore told Sam they fed on animal blood and that's why Lenore's nest let him go and Sam took her at her word.

Is there an assumption that ALL vampires would know this but they are just choosing to not take it to stick with human blood? I'm not sure.

Was it ever mentioned by Dean or Sam to help Benny and he rejected the option? I really don't recall that happening. If he rejected it, then I can see a case for him being addicted to human blood but if we have no evidence he rejected it then was that actually an option?  Did I miss something? 

Edited June 27, 2016 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Was it ever mentioned by Dean or Sam to help Benny and he rejected the option? I really don't recall that happening. If he rejected it, then I can see a case for him being addicted to human blood but if we have no evidence he rejected it then was that actually an option?  Did I miss something? 

Are you suggesting Benny can't be addicted to the blood and still need the blood to survive? Just because you might need something in moderation, doesn't mean you can't also be out of control in wanting that same thing. Many addicts believe they need whatever their addiction is or else they'll die.

However, Benny himself acknowledged he was having a hard time staying on the wagon. Which says to me he was aware it was an addiction and there were other choices.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Is there an assumption that ALL vampires would know this but they are just choosing to not take it to stick with human blood? I'm not sure.

I could be remembering this incorrectly, but when Dean was briefly a vampire, wasn't there some kind of "collective consciousness" download?  (and that's how he knew where to find the alpha?)

If that's true, then seems to me, that if one vampire, or a whole nest, knew they could survive on animal blood instead of human blood, all vampires would know.  They just might reject it  because it doesn't taste as good.  

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just because you might need something in moderation, doesn't mean you can't also be out of control in wanting that same thing. Many addicts believe they need whatever their addiction is or else they'll die.

However, Benny himself acknowledged he was having a hard time staying on the wagon. Which says to me he was aware it was an addiction and there were other choices.

I was thinking of it in terms of protein for us 'normal' humans.  We need protein to survive, but there are many different ways to get it.  Most humans get it through animal protein.  But there are some people who choose not to eat animal products for their protein and so get it through plant sources like soy beans and nuts.  Now, I personally enjoy a good rib-eye steak occasionally and think it tastes much better than tofu.   But for those who feel strongly about it, they choose not to rely on animal protein and it isn't an issue for them to give up rib-eyes.  

So, imo, if Benny felt strongly enough about the sanctity of human life; it should be a no-brainer for him.  Either he gets his blood, his 'protein', elsewhere or he kills a person.  No matter how good that human rib-eye might taste, the moral prohibition against taking a human life should be enough to stop him.  If it's not - that's addiction.  

[DittyDotDot]

56 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So, imo, if Benny felt strongly enough about the sanctity of human life; it should be a no-brainer for him.  Either he gets his blood, his 'protein', elsewhere or he kills a person.  No matter how good that human rib-eye might taste, the moral prohibition against taking a human life should be enough to stop him.  If it's not - that's addiction.  

Yeah, I was trying to come up with a way to say he wasn't in control of himself around humans. Like if he took one little sip of fresh blood he wouldn't be able to stop. It's like eating an entire cake without realizing what you're doing. You aren't eating it for sustenance any longer, you just can't stop yourself.

To a certain extent, I think I get what you're trying to say, @catrox14. Benny has this hunger for blood simply because he's a vampire. It's part of his base code. And it's not even like this was something Benny chose, being a vampire is something that was done to him. It's almost like an animal who doesn't know any different and It's hard to see instinct as addiction. Except, it does seem Benny does know better.

Edited June 28, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Are you suggesting Benny can't be addicted to the blood and still need the blood to survive? Just because you might need something in moderation, doesn't mean you can't also be out of control in wanting that same thing. Many addicts believe they need whatever their addiction is or else they'll die.

However, Benny himself acknowledged he was having a hard time staying on the wagon. Which says to me he was aware it was an addiction and there were other choices.

I'm asking if we have information that Benny realized or thought he had an option to use animal blood at all? I couldn't find any reference to vamps using animal blood as a substitute for survival other than Lenore.

Benny "falling off the wagon" IMO was a stupid line to try and communicate that Benny was losing the fight against his vampire nature. which is to drink blood from the tap and to either kill or turn humans. Severe alcoholics and heroin addicts will literally die from withdrawal depending on their level of physical dependency. That's why there are drugs like methadone and something else for alcoholics. But that's not what Benny was dealing with. Bagged human blood kept him from drinking from the tap which kept him from killing and satisfying that part of his vampire nature. It's just a totally different thing than addiction.  I mean he can't not be a vampire. He can't be cured of being a vampire. To me without clear information that he KNEW he could drink animal blood, I don't see that he was an addict choosing the better drug with human blood or that he was addicted to killing. I mean it's not like he could go to Vampires Anonymous and use the 12 steps to stop drinking human blood unless they gave out animal blood instead of cookies and coffee at the meetings :)

Vampires aren't human beings anymore. Their DNA has changed. Dean could barely fight off the effects even around Lisa and Ben who he loved on some level and that was before he even fed. If he fed, that would have been lights out for him forever and he would have struggled with what Benny wound up struggling with if Sam didn't stake him first

Edited June 28, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm asking if we have information that Benny realized or thought he had an option to use animal blood at all? I couldn't find any reference to vamps using animal blood as a substitute for survival other than Lenore.

As far as I know, there was no conversation about animal blood with Benny. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Benny "falling off the wagon" IMO was a stupid line to try and communicate that Benny was losing the fight against his vampire nature. which is to drink blood from the tap and to either kill or turn humans. Severe alcoholics and heroin addicts will literally die from withdrawal depending on their level of physical dependency. That's why there are drugs like methadone and something else for alcoholics. But that's not what Benny was dealing with. Bagged human blood kept him from drinking from the tap which kept him from killing and satisfying that part of his vampire nature. It's just a totally different thing than addiction.  I mean he can't not be a vampire. He can't be cured of being a vampire. To me without clear information that he KNEW he could drink animal blood, I don't see that he was an addict choosing the better drug with human blood or that he was addicted to killing. I mean it's not like he could go to Vampires Anonymous and use the 12 steps to stop drinking human blood unless they gave out animal blood instead of cookies and coffee at the meetings :)

Vampires aren't human beings anymore. Their DNA has changed. Dean could barely fight off the effects even around Lisa and Ben who he loved on some level and that was before he even fed. If he fed, that would have been lights out for him forever and he would have struggled with what Benny wound up struggling with if Sam didn't stake him first

It seems like we are actually talking about two different things here. Addiction, which is basically a compulsive behavior that overtakes one's life; and dependence, which is the physical reliance on on a drug. Dependence doesn't constitute addiction, but it often accompanies addiction.

In Benny's case, I think he is both physically dependent on the blood, but also addicted to it. He physically needs some blood to survive, but also has a compulsion and desire for that blood that goes beyond need. He probably spends most of his days thinking about blood and how to manage his blood consumption. Whether it's due to his vampire nature or not, it is compulsive behavior that's taken over his life. He's able to manage his hunger when he has a support system in place and feels a sense of stability, but when that's taken away from him, his need overwhelms him. That's addiction, IMO.

[Dobian]

I have to disagree with the addiction label.  Benny isn't addicted to blood any more than wolves are addicted to deer meat.  He needs it to survive.  And stealing from blood banks not only is not very viable, it's not natural.  Just as it isn't natural when zoo animals are fed.  Lions and tigers are supposed to hunt for their kills, not get meat delivered to them.  They're not supposed to have support systems so they don't  feel the need to kill and eat a gazelle.  Their nature is to hunt.  It's a vampire's nature to hunt.  That's not addiction, it's what they are.  An addict does not need drugs or alcohol to survive, it's not human nature to seek out those things for survival. 

Heaven is depicted more and more like an evil corporation than a godly paradise on this show.

I love Crowley, but my one issue with him is that he comes off as much more of a low level gangster than a demon.  Except for the accent, I could see him working on Tony's crew on the Sopranos.

[Dobian]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 2:23 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Then that comports with what @DittyDotDot said.  Benny might need blood to survive - but not specifically human blood.  He could live on animal blood.  And he could live without killing people by getting his blood from blood banks as he'd been doing.  But they showed him eyeing people in the park as if he was about go on a killing bender.  That's addiction behavior.

 

My last two cents on this topic.  Vampire lore varies, but in one area where it's pretty consistent is that animal blood is a poor substitute for human blood.  Vampires were once human, so human blood is their appropriate food source.  It's true that vampires can survive off of animal blood.  And humans can survive without red meat or any animal protein.  But then you'd have to classify everyone who craves a hamburger as an addict since technically they don't "have" to eat it.  I think the problem here is people are trying to place their own human morals on vampires and then calling vampires addicts for violating those values.  We consider killing people to be murder and unacceptable, therefore if a vampire does it when he could be getting his blood by killing an animal, he is then an addict.  Well you could say the same about meat eaters.  A lot of animals wouldn't have to be slaughtered if people could suppress their craving for meat.  Why is a vampire an addict if he kills people for food but not an addict if he kills an animal?  He is killing and eating his primary food source.  He needs it to survive, and to forego hunting humans - a much more plentiful and accessible source of food for a vampire - to hunt animals, not only goes against his nature but makes no practical sense.  This again gets back to us expecting vampires to make choices based on our own human morals.  But they're not going to do that any more than a wolf or a lion is going to make decisions based on human values and behavior instead of their own.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Dobian

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

My last two cents on this topic.  Vampire lore varies, but in one area where it's pretty consistent is that animal blood is a poor substitute for human blood.  Vampires were once human, so human blood is their appropriate food source.  It's true that vampires can survive off of animal blood.  And humans can survive without red meat or any animal protein.  But then you'd have to classify everyone who craves a hamburger as an addict since technically they don't "have" to eat it.

Only if that compulsion to eat hamburgers overtakes their life and can't stop thinking about eating hamburgers and/or they're not in control of themselves when in the vicinity of hamburgers and will forgo their usual value system--steal, kill or whatnot--in order to get more hamburgers.

Benny made a choice not to kill humans in order to get what he needed to survive and chose to live off blood bank blood. He didn't seem to have any problems holding to that choice when he had "family" to support him. But when his support system was taken away, he was having a hard time holding to that choice. IMO, He wasn't considering killing humans for survival, but wanted to that old feeling back he got from drinking humans. That's why I call it addiction.

I don't think all vampires are necessarily addicts, but I do believe Benny was. Just because you need something to survive, doesn't mean you can't be addicted to it, as well.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

This again gets back to us expecting vampires to make choices based on our own human morals.  But they're not going to do that any more than a wolf or a lion is going to make decisions based on human values and behavior instead of their own.

I understand what you're saying - I really do.  And part of me really wants to agree with you...but I just can't.  

What is really problematic for me about this analogy is that wolves or lions are not humans - and don't and never did have human thought processes and reasoning capabilities - so therefore no, imo, one could not expect them to make decisions based on human values.  In fact, I wouldn't expect wolves or lions to make "decisions" at all - not how we normally think of decisions, any more than I expect my dog or cat to make decisions.  (To bark or not to bark - is that the question?)  But you said it yourself:

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

Vampires were once human

And they still have "human" brains and frontal lobes and reasoning skills.  So, I do not think it unreasonable to expect them, especially ones like Benny who have shown some human morality in their past choices, to continue making choices based on human morals. 

[Dobian]

Just responding to the above. Vampires did use to be human, and their need for human blood is physiological.  They don't really drink it, they don't ingest it, and it doesn't even fall into the same category as "food" is for animals.  They need it to run through their veins, to simulate being alive.  And being that they have human anatomy, human blood is the most appropriate kind of blood for them to drink, and what they are hard-wired to crave.  It's not simply that it tastes great, or gives them some big high, they need it just like a carnivore needs its red meat.  As for Benny not needing to drink human blood when he had this support system, of course he did.  All that support system (Dean) did was to help him suppress his true nature and his hunger for his primary source of sustenance.  That in itself was  misguided.  To say that this creature - which is what he is, a creature - is an addict because he craves the thing that he needs for optimal survival, makes no sense to me.  As for the difference between humans and animals, yes, humans can reason where animals cannot, and humans make moral choices whereas animals don't.  But while Benny remembers what it was to be a human, vampires are by their nature feral animals, and when he hasn't fed in a while and is hungry and sees a nice meal in front of him in human form, his reaction is no different that that of a wolf or lion.  That's not the reaction of an addict, that's the reaction of a hungry predator.  When it comes right down to it, a vampire is going to feed on humans, and that isn't something you can 'cure', like you can cure a heroin addict, because the need is part of their nature.  Benny's feeding his hunger with human blood isn't an example of addiction, it's an example of Darwinism..

[DittyDotDot]

IMO, the problem with the argument that Benny is a monster and does as monsters do, is that we saw that Benny was able to do as monster's don't when he had a proper support system in place to help him manage. 

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

To say that this creature - which is what he is, a creature - is an addict because he craves the thing that he needs for optimal survival, makes no sense to me.  

That's not at all what I'm saying. Craving has nothing to do with it. I'm craving ice cream right now, but that doesn't mean I'm addicted to ice cream. 

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

 As for Benny not needing to drink human blood when he had this support system, of course he did. 

Again, not what I was saying. I was saying that Benny lived on human blood, but didn't kill anyone in order to get it. He drank blood bank blood instead of people. He says he had been off "fresh" blood years before he went to Purgatory. He was able to live a fairly normal life. Had a wife and a job and all that. And even after he gets out of Purgatory, he manages, doesn't seem to have any problems until his personal life gets out of control and he starts looking for something to make him feel like he's in control again.

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

When it comes right down to it, a vampire is going to feed on humans, and that isn't something you can 'cure', like you can cure a heroin addict, because the need is part of their nature.  Benny's feeding his hunger with human blood isn't an example of addiction, it's an example of Darwinism..

As far as I know, there's no cure for addiction. It can be managed successfully through modifying one's behavior and with proper treatment. But treatment is lifelong and characterized by relapses. Which, IMO, is what was happening to Benny after he killed Martin. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Dobian]

We just see it differently.  You see a vampire needing human blood as an addiction that needs to be managed, I see it as a vampire expressing its true nature that needs to be embraced.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Dobian said:

We just see it differently.  You see a vampire needing human blood as an addiction that needs to be managed, I see it as a vampire expressing its true nature that needs to be embraced.

We definitely see it differently, but as I said above, I don't think all vampires are addicts. Benny's behavior is what makes me see it as addiction because he's behaving like an addict. Other vampires on this show I've seen it as survival and their nature. We didn't see enough of Lenore for me to judge, but she could be the exception, but I don't even think she was an addict.

[Hanahope]

Well, it was good to get the brothers back together again, and realize that they are both each others No. 1.  Both had to give up their "seconds".  Please let this be the last of Amelia.  I'll bet we'll still see Benny again, and that's ok.  He's a decent character.

I'm curious as to how the Castiel story plays out, with him being controlled by Naomi and who exactly is Naomi?

Duh, of course there's an angel tablet.  There's a tablet for everything it seems.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

 Please let this be the last of Amelia.

You can breathe easy now, it is indeed the last we see of Amelia. ;)

[Hanahope]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

You can breathe easy now, it is indeed the last we see of Amelia. ;)

IDK if it was the writing or the actress or the character, but I really disliked that whole story line.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

IDK if it was the writing or the actress or the character, but I really disliked that whole story line.

Heh, I think the only thing this fandom has ever agreed on was not liking that storyline. ;)

TBH, I didn't actually dislike the character or the actress--although, I didn't think she and Jared had any on-screen chemistry--but I definitely didn't like the storyline. It was just so contrived and forced. I think if Sam had met Amelia under different circumstances, Amelia as a character might have worked out...maybe...perhaps...sort of... ? 

[bettername2come]

Poor Samandriel. Heh, "fangbanger." I need to hear vamps called that more often. I'm with Sam on the fake phone call. After Jess, making him think the woman he loves is in danger is not cool. The fact that Amelia is in the dark about what Sam does really holds the relationship back. Aw, Castiel healed a baby. He deserves better than Naomi messing with his head. I like Dean's press suit. "That's his serious face, yes." Woohoo, Shirtless Sam! Thanks for that, Amelia.  Kevin!  He's aged like ten years since his first appearance. Laughed a little too hard at Dean checking if Kevin could hear him by saying his mom's hot. "I got what we need." Brings back Sam. Castiel's "Why was I so afraid? What did you do to me?" just breaks my heart. Something about these characters just admitting that they're scared gets to me. Nice parallel with the Dean/Benny breakup and Sam/Amelia. I half-expected Sam to be watching her in the distance like he did Dean when he came back from hell. I've seen every episode of season eight at least once or twice, but very little of the first half stuck. 

[Iju]

i couldn't look at samandriel's torture. probably the worst i have ever seen in the whole show. this is probably when i stopped adoring crawley as a slightly attractive villain and realised the king of hell meant business.

also, i hated amelia for manipulating a very vulnerable sam. she chose her life and she has to suffer the consequences. but she wants to skimp back to sam's place on the DL? wtf? and then she's all "well i saw you, goshdarn it now i just HAVE to sleep with you! darn these feelings!" man screw her right to hell. betraying her husband and using sam like that. was i supposed to feel bad when she didn't see sam in his motel? whoops.

naomi...lord knows how i much i want her killed. someone please write her death as glorious as it should be. if she dies by a sacrifice i will throw a table.

in other news, i'm happy to see the boys "kiss and make up". looking in my brother's perspective, them fighting over a vampire was pretty silly. dean was the first to apologize, thank god. he really was getting to be way too dramatic about sam. and sam's (HOPEFULLY) gotten his head out of some very high clouds on him having a "normal life". honestly writers. whyyyy

[The Companion]

On 12/16/2014 at 12:28 AM, rue721 said:

 

Touche! Thankfully, that episode is so mythically bad that I knew to avoid it! But this one was covert-terrible, and I was completely unprepared for how bad it was.

 

I think the turning point from "bad SPN episode" to "is this an SPN episode?!!!" was when Amelia was wondering around the bedroom in a gigantic plaid shirt making overly complicated plans with Sam for meeting up with him at some *other* time and place in order to have The Relationship Talk at *that* time and place on the off-chance that they both even showed up there. That's when I had to make some taquitos and stop doing my work to rubberneck until the episode was over, anyway.

Why talk about things like adults when you can set an arbitrary deadline and really ramp up the drama? 🙄

 

On 6/27/2016 at 10:28 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps Sam finally realized he didn't really love her as much as he loved the idea of her, or what she represented? In some ways, I think it's a lot like Dean and Lisa. I think Dean cared for Lisa--as I'm sure Sam did for Amelia--but it was more the idea of how she and Ben represented family to Dean that drew him to her, IMO. For me, that's kinda the similar thing with Sam and Amelia. I think she represented that normal life he thought he wanted as a kid, but that life wasn't actually all that fulfilling when he finally got to live it.

 

I don't know if Benny ever goes bad, but that would make that the theme of the season. We have seen a lot of examples of people ignoring reality or focusing on their fantasy version of a person. With Benny, it would be less a lack of self reflection and more that Benny can be a different person with no hunger. Sadly, that seems unlikely given the lack of cohesion 

On 8/2/2017 at 11:59 PM, DittyDotDot said:

You can breathe easy now, it is indeed the last we see of Amelia. 😉

Hallelujah 

On 8/17/2018 at 4:15 AM, Iju said:

i couldn't look at samandriel's torture. probably the worst i have ever seen in the whole show. this is probably when i stopped adoring crawley as a slightly attractive villain and realised the king of hell meant business.

also, i hated amelia for manipulating a very vulnerable sam. she chose her life and she has to suffer the consequences. but she wants to skimp back to sam's place on the DL? wtf? and then she's all "well i saw you, goshdarn it now i just HAVE to sleep with you! darn these feelings!" man screw her right to hell. betraying her husband and using sam like that. was i supposed to feel bad when she didn't see sam in his motel? whoops.

 

I think Crowley is best used when he is turning on the charm and you can almost forget the undercurrent of evil. I have never fully warmed to him, but this episode was particularly hard to watch.

Agree on Amelia. The worst is that her husband was actually really understanding. I don't think they could have made her any more insufferable.

I did love the moment where Castiel told them to stow their shit mainly because I have felt the same way all season.

This episode was not great. It was peetty depressing that we get a storyline episode and the story has been so sparse that they basically have to sketch it out here. There has been so little development. So little tension.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

Why talk about things like adults when you can set an arbitrary deadline and really ramp up the drama?

I would have liked that so much better if they had shown Amelia NOT going to the hotel.

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

I did love the moment where Castiel told them to stow their shit mainly because I have felt the same way all season.

Me, too. I've felt that they were both wrong in their annoyances with each other.  That's right. I said both and I mean both.