S08.E09: Citizen Fang

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

anyway, I still think she was sincere in her statement to Dean, but I suppose there always is the question of what would she have done if her son became sick again.

I agree, I think she was sincere in her statement, but I also think that doesn't mean it would've worked out that way for her in the end.

TBH, I don't think Sam still is harboring any anger over Amy. Dean explained his reasoning, and while Sam may not have done the same thing, he accepted Dean wasn't just killing her willy-nilly. And, TBH, I don't think Sam was every all that upset that he killed Amy as much as he was angry about Dean lying about it when he was already having issues with knowing what was real or not. I think they both moved on from it, though.

I think Sam's motivations with Benny were driven mostly out of jealousy and it clouded his judgement. I also think Sam was confused by Dean suddenly having a monster friend and was transferring his own history with Ruby on to this situation. But mostly, I think it was jealousy more than anything. That's not to say Dean didn't conflate the issue or do anything wrong either, though.

Edited August 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Sam's motivations with Benny were driven mostly out of jealousy and it clouded his judgement. I also think Sam was confused by Dean suddenly having a monster friend and was transferring his own history with Ruby on to this situation. But mostly, I think it was jealousy more than anything. That's not to say Dean didn't conflate the issue or do anything wrong either, though.

I'm not saying there was no jealousy involved.  Because there definitely was.  But, I also think people tend to assume the worst more when you are hiding something.  If Dean had shown up at the cabin with Benny, introduced him, or even just told Sam everything from the get go, it might have gone a lot differently. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm not saying there was no jealousy involved.  Because there definitely was.  But, I also think people tend to assume the worst more when you are hiding something.  If Dean had shown up at the cabin with Benny, introduced him, or even just told Sam everything from the get go, it might have gone a lot differently. 

Oh, I agree. Like I said, it's not like Dean didn't conflate the issue with his shiftiness about it all. I don't think he even needed to introduce Benny, nor do I think he needed to tell Sam about Benny from the get-go, but he certainly didn't need to lie to Sam when Benny called him for help. I think that was the red flag that got Sam very concerned Dean had his own Ruby with Benny. But, I do think Sam's main reason for sending Martin to watch Benny was more out of jealousy after Dean said that Benny was a better brother than Sam had ever been. 

Don't get me wrong, I actually think Sam was being smart in having Benny watched, I'm just not sure Sam's motives were really about keeping folks safe as much as trying to prove Benny wasn't who Dean thought he was. 

[Hanahope]

18 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dean said that Benny was a better brother than Sam had ever been. 

Yeah, between that and the fake phone message, Dean was really being cruel to Sam.  

[bettername2come]

Immediately looked up the Elizabeth actress because I thought I recognized her and boom! she's the mom that drove her changeling into a lake from "The Kids Are Alright." I liked her in that one too. And Broots! I mean, Martin. Didn't realize they had two Dammit, Amelia. Hi, Riot. "Maybe I'm going to hell for saying this, but..." Literally did not hear the end of Sam's sentence because I burst out cackling like the awful person I am. Aw, Elizabeth is Benny's great-granddaughter. "Guys like us, we don't get a home. We don't get a family." Aw, come on, I was trying to be mad at Dean, don't make me feel bad for him. Well, Martin had it coming. He started it. Oh, the trick with the burner phone. I have to admit, I'm a little impressed, but not cool, Dean. 

[Wayward Son]

On 11/03/2015 at 1:24 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

 

I can't answer for anyone else on that point, but for me personally, the answer is in the rest of your description. "I hated Sam here and really felt bad for Dean and Benny." (Warning: somewhat bitter opinions ahead.) Exactly. I felt severely manipulated by this episode. From the very beginning of Benny being introduced - actually from the beginning of the season - it was all set up for this. First we had Sam not look for Dean - which in itself made no sense to me. * Then we have Sam immediately hate Benny for little reason. Especially since Sam has previously had good interactions with and given the benefit of the doubt to other vampires (Lenore and her nest and as recently as late season 6) - and he's shown no jealousy/bitterness towards others previously saving Dean (Castiel). I understand Amerilla's point above that this wasn't the same as Castiel, but, in my opinion, there was little reason for the plot to have Sam act like this jealous asshat except to manufacture this almost romantic, us-against-the-world, bro-ship feeling for the Dean and Benny friendship. Because for me, it would have been just as much in character and supported by previous behavior - maybe even more so - for Sam not to act this way (i.e. look for Dean and give Benny some benefit of the doubt), but I guess that wouldn't be as dramatic. So the more the writers pushed the "Poor Benny and Dean. Sam is being such an unsympathetic ass to them, and all they want to be is friends," the more I felt manipulated and completely over it. For me, the Benny / Dean bromance wasn't worth trashing Sam's character for. Not by a long shot, and this made me feel even more manipulated and a little bitter. Miles vary.

Well said! One of the primary reasons Benny is the character I most loathe on Supernatural is the fact IMO he was there to act as fuel in the Sam vs Dean angst at the start of the season.* I also felt he went against the established lore of the show and they tried too hard to make him cute cuddly vampire Benny who is being persecuted by mean old Sam.

 

Spoiler

I think this is supported by the fact that as soon as the writers decided it was time for the brothers to start getting along again Benny was written off the show. He had served his purpose. 

 

This is why I loudly cheered when that stupid vampire got his head chopped off :D.

On 04/08/2017 at 4:57 PM, Hanahope said:

Yeah, between that and the fake phone message, Dean was really being cruel to Sam.  

It was cruel and not only that it was dangerous. Dean kept stressing just how dangerous Sam was and then he manipulated him into an extreme mindset. What would have happened if Sam hadn’t arrived while Don and Amelia were cuddling on the couch? What if they had been arguing, or some other context where Dean’s text seemed to be true, and Dean’s text led Sam to assume the worst and he hurt Don or worse? Dean isn’t a psychic and he put the lives of those around in danger by setting a Sam, who thinks he’s protecting the woman he loves, on them. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 8/4/2017 at 11:57 AM, Hanahope said:

Yeah, between that and the fake phone message, Dean was really being cruel to Sam.  

To be fair, Sam, sided against him with a hunter they know to be mentally unstable, and then, who supposedly believing that Benny is killing humans (not to mention any other vamps in the area), left his unconscious brother handcuffed to a radiator. Not exactly a shining example of brotherly love. Dean's method was cold, but necessary. If, as @Wayward Son says, Dean's deception was potentially dangerous*, so was Sam's.  And there is precedent for the 'cuddly' vampire in show lore - see: Lenore. Who, ironically, Sam championed for.

 

*I'm trying to recall Dean saying Sam was dangerous in S8 - drawing a blank.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be fair, Sam, sided against him with a hunter they know to be mentally unstable, and then, who supposedly believing that Benny is killing humans (not to mention any other vamps in the area), left his unconscious brother handcuffed to a radiator. Not exactly a shining example of brotherly love. Dean's method was cold, but necessary. If, as @Wayward Son says, Dean's deception was potentially dangerous*, so was Sam's.  And there is precedent for the 'cuddly' vampire in show lore - see: Lenore. Who, ironically, Sam championed for.

 

*I'm trying to recall Dean saying Sam was dangerous in S8 - drawing a blank.

I’m not sure if he uses that exact word (I hate this episode and half watch at best), but there are several scenes with Dean telling Benny he does not want Sam coming after him. That Sam can and will kill him if given half a chance. So if he doesn’t use that precise word he says it in spirit. Since this isn’t bitch vs jerk I don’t want to get too into it, but yeah IMO potentially* siccing a panicked Sam Winchester on innocent civilians is dangerous as hell. But we can agree to disagree

 

* Please note the word potentially. I’m aware that fortunately Sam came across an innocent scene where it was obvious the text wasn’t real. All I’m saying is Dean didn’t know that’s what Sam would walk in on and it could have just as easily been a more heated scene, such as Don and Amelia having an argument of some sort, which in a panicked Sam’s mind supported the content of the text and led to him lashing out at Don, or whoever was with Amelia. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m not sure if he uses that exact word (I hate this episode and half watch at best), but there are several scenes with Dean telling Benny he does not want Sam coming after him. That Sam can and will kill him if given half a chance. So if he doesn’t use that precise word he says it in spirit. Since this isn’t bitch vs jerk I don’t want to get too into it, but yeah IMO potentially* siccing a panicked Sam Winchester on innocent civilians is dangerous as hell. But we can agree to disagree

Sam killing a vampire wouldn't make him seem "dangerous" or unstable in Dean's eyes.  That is what they do after all.  Dean just happened to not want this particular vampire dead.  He also told Sam that Benny would kill him if he went after him, I think.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be fair, Sam, sided against him with a hunter they know to be mentally unstable, and then, who supposedly believing that Benny is killing humans (not to mention any other vamps in the area), left his unconscious brother handcuffed to a radiator. Not exactly a shining example of brotherly love. Dean's method was cold, but necessary.

It was a Dick Move by Sam to sic Martin on Benny.

It was a Dick Move by Dean to send a fake text to Sam.

This is not Bitch vs. Jerk.  They were both Dicks.  Both 'methods' were cold.  And IMO, neither one was necessary.  

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam killing a vampire wouldn't make him seem "dangerous" or unstable in Dean's eyes.  That is what they do after all.  Dean just happened to not want this particular vampire dead.  He also told Sam that Benny would kill him if he went after him, I think.

My point is that Dean is well aware of how capable Sam is. So if Sam walked in on an argument and misunderstood things and went to attack Don (thinking he was defending Amelia). Who do you think would win such a confrontation? Because my bets on Sam due to how capable he is at taking monsters down let alone a run of the mill civilian. That is a fact Dean is well aware of and yet he was still happy to potentially sic a  panicked and riled up Sam on an innocent civilian.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be fair, Sam, sided against him with a hunter they know to be mentally unstable, and then, who supposedly believing that Benny is killing humans (not to mention any other vamps in the area), left his unconscious brother handcuffed to a radiator. Not exactly a shining example of brotherly love.

Well, if we're being fair, I wouldn't say Sam sided with the nut job as much as Martin was off the reservation and Sam followed along trying to make sure Martin didn't cause any more trouble since Sam gave him the pass to leave the reservation in the first place. I think Sam was just playing the middle between two extremes he created in the first place.

[Katy M]

And, I can't really say what would have happened had Dean not sent the text, but I do know that Sam would not have let Martin kidnap Elizabeth.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

And, I can't really say what would have happened had Dean not sent the text, but I do know that Sam would not have let Martin kidnap Elizabeth.

Yeah, I tend to see this episode as the accumulation of both Sam and Dean getting caught up in their own issues and creating more problems than they solved. Less saving people through hunting things and more hunting things to the detriment of others.

[Hanahope]

7 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Who do you think would win such a confrontation? Because my bets on Sam due to how capable he is at taking monsters down let alone a run of the mill civilian.

Well, Don wasn't a "run of the mill civilian" like the parents in American Nightmare (S12E4), for example who managed to capture Sam.  Don was military, he's had combat training.  He would have at least put up a good fight.

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It was a Dick Move by Sam to sic Martin on Benny.

It was a Dick Move by Dean to send a fake text to Sam.

This is not Bitch vs. Jerk.  They were both Dicks.  Both 'methods' were cold.  And IMO, neither one was necessary.  

*looks for 100 likes button*

[Iju]

On 8/28/2014 at 3:34 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, my complaint here was more Sam's "he's a vampire, so of course he should die" attitude that seemed odd. Generally Sam was the brother who wanted to give monsters a chance, and considering Benny helped Dean, and Dean trusted him - which if anything should've convinced Sam a monster should be given a chance first it would be Dean of all people trusting him - it would seem Sam wouldn't usually have made a snap judgement here. But it seemed Sam deciding he hated Benny from the moment he met him and insinuating even then that Benny should die is what to me seemed out of character. This was supposedly the same Sam who in season 7 agreed to leave Castiel with Meg of all people and gave her the benefit of the doubt with watching Cas and then later talked/commiserated with Meg. His anger with Benny just seemed way out of proportion* from his usual reaction. And bringing in Martin seemed an odd choice all around. Wouldn't someone like Garth have been a more logical choice?

 

And it's too bad, because I think this could have been a really good episode - especially with Elizabeth - without all of the Sam wanting to kill Benny stuff. Why was that even needed? Crazy Martin could've gotten out and caught the trail of the other vampire and been on Benny's trail, and Sam could've watched from the outside watching Dean trying to help Benny - with Sam watching both and trying to figure out the real story and what the connection was between Benny and Dean... conflicted but waiting and trying to solve the case (like he used to do). He could've sneaked around, not quite trusting either side, only getting pieces of what was going on, and it might've been interesting to see something from Sam's POV in that regard... with us the audience trying to figure out the real story with Sam, knowing he was supicious of Benny, but still trying to find out the truth first. I don't know maybe I'm reading too much into it, but to me, I would've found that much more satisfying.

 

reading this, this is an interesting look on why people are so hard on sam nowadays. it is true that sam wasn't so happy to kill monsters, but for some reason they didn't want to bring that back in older sam, they wanted to bring back his ridiculous child's dream of having a normal life.

On 8/28/2014 at 3:34 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

More like something you'd expect from a jealous lover in a soap opera than something Sam would actually do. And I can't really buy that Sam was angry/jealous that Beny saved Dean when he (Sam) couldn't, because Sam didn't react that way with Castiel in season 4. In fact he was grateful that Castiel had saved Dean. So for me, Sam's over the top anger reaction here just seemed odd.

i believe it was because of dean's hiding of benny, and when it was revealed what benny was he basically told sam to just trust him on it. sam already forgave dean on him killing amy but i think he's just hugely suspicious (and yes, a bit jealous) of benny. however, he still had faith in dean while martin didn't believe him at all (with good reason, he doesn't know dean).

On 8/28/2014 at 9:36 AM, Amerilla said:

Also, at the risk of giving the story far more complexity than it to gave me, it didn't feel like Sam was just looking at Benny like Yoko was about to split up the band - it was more of an unconcious mix of guilt (because Benny had done what he hadn't even tried to do) and hatred (because he had worked out a lot of his Souless ya-yas on vampire nests and the team has never before had a good interaction with the species), combined with at least some jealously over Dean's obvious affection for Benny as a person. Castiel doesn't disrupt the equilibrium between the boys, where I could see Sam sensing Benny had "distruptor" written all over him.

 

agreed with your points in bold, because that at least adds some complexities of him as a character rather than baffling to the audience. and about sam, dean and cass may be best friends, but i think some people can forget that he trusted and had affection for sam first. dean wasn't fighting for cass' affection because he didn't like him, and sam wasn't really feeling him so i don't think that would have separated them then

or maybe i am totally wrong. how cass came in their lives is hazy to me lol

On 8/29/2014 at 10:01 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I think the biggest fail for them not being able to pull this off is that they never really hit Dean's jealousy side hard enough nor did they give us enough of Sam's point of view about how Dean's judgment shouldn't be trusted here. I think they got so lost in trying to make Sam's normal-life story hold water, when it obviously didn't, that they lost sight of what was happening with Dean once he was out of Purgatory. I also think this is one of those instances when social media and the way TPTB like to be so accessible to the fans really hindered them. It seemed to me they got too caught up trying to respond fan backlash, that they lost sight of what they had originally set out to do which was give them a more mature and grown up relationship.

really, i didn't find them trying to make sam's story more valid, but pushing more on how he was the bad guy on it all. it just doesn't look right, dean almost literally scraping by to get his life back and sam just laughing it up with his GF and her father. sad, because when it turned out her husband was still alive, sam should have been nodding to himself with a sort of grim smile as if to say "Yep, I really can't have this life...Time to move on" or something like that. now it is only introduced that dean could be jealous instead of outright angry on sam's choices and i agree, they hardly danced that number though. no, i do not blame sam not knowing where to find dean, but i do blame him for being so stupid to try to go back and get a woman. both brothers are at fault here but as i said before, this season makes sam look more like the person to run the bus over.

 

On 1/5/2015 at 8:41 AM, DittyDotDot said:

What sticks in my craw is how Sam abandons Martin when he gets that text message. Which okay, someone he loves is in danger so he goes to help--that's reasonable, I guess, whatever. But in the many hours of driving to Kermit, Texas, Sam doesn't, at any point, use all that free time to call Martin or Dean and let them know what's up or make sure they didn't get killed in by a vampire or anything? Okay, he was in panic mode, fine, whatever. But, then he sees Amelia is just fine and dandy and his next course of action is to go get a beer and think things over rather than returning to the mess he made in Louisiana or even making a phone call to see what happened with the case. Confused, needed a moment, okay fine, whatever. But then, he figures it all out and still acts like he had nothing to do with what happened in the end. What the fuck?

 

really, i can't see how you can't see why. martin was such an ass the whole time. sam didn't like working with him as soon as he saw how he treated dean, especially with the whole knock out thingie. then with martin's complaining on "get dean under control...he's your brother....do you know what's happening with dean?!?" talk, who wouldn't leave his ass somewhere. safe, but alone.

---------------

watching this episode, my brother came in and watched the rest with us and asked "What are they struggling with now?" my mother explained what was going on, and he just sat there listening and eating his pizza. after our mother was finished, he thought for a while and said: "So you're telling me, that with these two's fmaily bonds that are so strong they can transcend death, the apocalypse and even Fate itself, and now they are fighting over a vampire?"

which really shows the really big picture of things and makes this storyline so ridiculous. i get it, dean+purgatory = not so okay dean, but he's taking the favour he did with benny way too far. and didn't cass have to do way more things to and for dean in order for him to call him family? saving his life isn't going to be nothing of course, but they both did each other favours and that was it. i think what dean feels is "trauma bonding" or "tragic event bonding", and that the only side to what he feels about purgatory is benny. so he uses that as a means to call benny his "brother", and is holding way too tightly to him than he should be.

and i freaking hated that martin punched dean to oblivion and sam almost let it slide. the reason why i say almost is because sam was still looking at martin as if he was crazy when he did that, because it was totally unneeded. but he still left him on the floor, cuffed like that. all kinds of no and wrong. and martin really needed more than an intimidating "stfu" chat sam spat at him, i would have done more than that if it were me in that situation.

 dean using that number as well...damn man. can't even speak on how wrong that was as well. this whole arc just needs to end end eeeend.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Iju said:

it is true that sam wasn't so happy to kill monsters, but for some reason they didn't want to bring that back in older sam, they wanted to bring back his ridiculous child's dream of having a normal life.

Not sure why that's ridiculous.  Most people want a normal life.  It's why it'snormal.

[Iju]

18 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not sure why that's ridiculous.  Most people want a normal life.  It's why it'snormal.

because as i said, sam had already gotten over that and knew it would probably never come to him. and even if it did, it would probably come by an old age, when he and dean's body would give out from age and damage.

also, the winchesters (or hunters in general) are not "most people", dean himself would say something like that lol.

[The Companion]

 

On 10/19/2017 at 8:49 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

It was a Dick Move by Sam to sic Martin on Benny.

It was a Dick Move by Dean to send a fake text to Sam.

This is not Bitch vs. Jerk.  They were both Dicks.  Both 'methods' were cold.  And IMO, neither one was necessary.  

I almost hate to quote anyone with regard to this shitshow episode for fear of remonding them, but so much this. Both of them are dicks. I refuse to even entertain the discussion of who is less wrong. Ugh.

On 10/19/2017 at 9:48 AM, Katy M said:

And, I can't really say what would have happened had Dean not sent the text, but I do know that Sam would not have let Martin kidnap Elizabeth.

Oh for sure. The unintended consequence here is that Sam who had shown a willingness to trust Dean despite his reservations was barrelling down the highway instead of resigning in Martin.

 

You know, I was told there would be no more flashbacks, and those posts sit on a throne of lies as do Sam and Dean. Finally get to Louisiana and this is what I get?

I was actually enjoying the episode until the ridiculousness hit. Well, except for the Amelia flashbacks. Nobody cares, show.

 

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

Finally get to Louisiana and this is what I get?

Hee - Now I'm pretty sure I suggested that you skip this episode especially. : D

If it makes you feel any better, this writer is gone after this season. Both episodes he wrote on his own I found awful, so I say good riddance.

[The Companion]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee - Now I'm pretty sure I suggested that you skip this episode especially. : D

If it makes you feel any better, this writer is gone after this season. Both episodes he wrote on his own I found awful, so I say good riddance.

You did try to warn me. Don't go into that basement, Companion! 😆

[gonzosgirrl]

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

. Both of them are dicks. I refuse to even entertain the discussion of who is less wrong. Ugh.

Sam let another hunter knock his brother out, and chain him to a radiator,  and left him there alone, knowing there were (at the least) vampires in the area. Dean sent a text to distract him (that Sam could have resolved with a phone call). Dean also tried to get Sam to help him  to trust him, before any of that.I don't have a problem calling Sam the bigger dick here. In my opinion he acted solely out of jealousy, and made a bad situation worse. 

[The Companion]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam let another hunter knock his brother out, and chain him to a radiator,  and left him there alone, knowing there were (at the least) vampires in the area. Dean sent a text to distract him (that Sam could have resolved with a phone call). Dean also tried to get Sam to help him  to trust him, before any of that.I don't have a problem calling Sam the bigger dick here. In my opinion he acted solely out of jealousy, and made a bad situation worse. 

He tried to call and got an unavailable notification, so he did try a phone call. Dean planned it in advance and knew exactly what he was doing.

Spoiler

He doesn't deny that his plan was absolutely to get Sam out of the way in thr next episode (which I am halfway through)

DEAN
Amelia? Oh, come on, man. I sent you that text 'cause I needed you to – to –

SAM
You needed me to what? To tear ass to Texas? To be afraid that what happened to Jessica, what happened to... everybody that we care about might have happened to her?

DEAN
You were gonna kill Benny. What was I supposed to do?

SAM
Is that what we are? You save a vampire by making me believe that the woman I love might be dead?

DEAN
What do you want to hear, Sam? That I was wrong? Fine. I was wrong. Okay? But if you'd have just heard me out, if you'd have trusted me, all of this could have been avoided.

 

Sam did trust him and give him time, only hesitating when the body count went up and the only proof available was the word of the suspect. He also advocated for his brother with the other hunter. I also don't buy for a second that Dean trusts Sam if reversed. I think Sam thinks Dean's trust is misplaced and he would be correct with pretty much every monster on this show up to this point. Even Benny doesn't seem 100% talking about dealing with the hunger (absent in purgatory when he met Dean) and struggling when seeing blood. 

But Sam didn't intervene when his brother got knocked out (which is total bullshit and completely unbelievable),  didn't call him when he left and made a really bad choice of hunters in the first place. He put his brother in potential danger. Why the hell they didn't have Martin run out and Sam chase after him is beyond me. Instead he is like, oh look, you gave my brother a concussion. Shall we work the case?

Both of them are lying liars who lie for plot reasons and I don't like either of them here.

It all feels like manufactured drama and I hate it. I think I said it before but I am not really a Sam girl or a Dean girl, but I am a Team Winchester girl. I love it when they work together. I loved it when Dean told Sam about the Castiellucinations. I loved when Dean helped ground Sam with the stitches. This show is best when they are trying to figure out a problem together. Unfortunately, the writers seem to disagree. It is starting to feel like freaking Ross and Rachel from friends. Get it together, boys. 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, The Companion said:

It all feels like manufactured drama and I hate it. I think I said it before but I am not really a Sam girl or a Dean girl, but I am a Team Winchester girl. I love it when they work together. I loved it when Dean told Sam about the Castiellucinations. I loved when Dean helped ground Sam with the stitches. This show is best when they are trying to figure out a problem together. Unfortunately, the writers seem to disagree. It is starting to feel like freaking Ross and Rachel from friends. Get it together, boys. 

I hate to burst your bubble and I hope this isn't too spoilery, but I'd say if what you want is the boys working together without manufactured drama, you might as well stop watching right now.  I think I can count the number of times that happens in the next 7 seasons without even taking off my shoes.  

This is not to say that there aren't many wonderful episodes to come, and some interesting (and often wrenching) storylines, and even moments when the brothers are supporting each other and at their best together.  But the writers seem incapable of writing drama without the "melo" 

Spoiler

and all the characters take turns lying, "betraying", and being angry with/resenting the others, even if it's only in the background.

  Personally, I'm way too invested in the characters to stop watching and there are enough gems to keep me going, but I watch(ed) live and I think bingeing all the eps quickly would make it much more visible, intense and worse.  Sorry.  

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, The Companion said:

He tried to call and got an unavailable notification, so he did try a phone call. Dean planned it in advance and knew exactly what he was doing.

I doubt that one call was Sam's only alternative between then and driving all the way to Texas, but okay. I agree Dean knew what he was doing, but Sam left him no choice, having cleary demonstrated whose side [Sam] was on here. Better send him away than having to stop him from killing Benny or being forced to choose between his brother and his friend in a showdown. IMO this isn't like the other monsters they decided to give, or not give, a chance. This is one who proved his loyalty to Dean and saved his butt. Sam should have given him the benefit of the doubt based on Dean's word. That would have been solidarity and brotherhood.

 

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I hate to burst your bubble and I hope this isn't too spoilery, but I'd say if what you want is the boys working together without manufactured drama, you might as well stop watching right now.  I think I can count the number of times that happens in the next 7 seasons without even taking off my shoes.  

This is not to say that there aren't many wonderful episodes to come, and some interesting (and often wrenching) storylines, and even moments when the brothers are supporting each other and at their best together.  But the writers seem incapable of writing drama without the "melo" 

  Hide contents

and all the characters take turns lying, "betraying", and being angry with/resenting the others, even if it's only in the background.

  Personally, I'm way too invested in the characters to stop watching and there are enough gems to keep me going, but I watch(ed) live and I think bingeing all the eps quickly would make it much more visible, intense and worse.  Sorry.  

Oh, I hold no illusions that I will get what I want but I reserve the right to still be irritated. 😆

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

Both of them are lying liars who lie for plot reasons and I don't like either of them here.

It all feels like manufactured drama and I hate it.

This is the only way they could come up with drama.  Manufactured is the key word.  Unfortunately, more is coming with lots of heavy sighs.  I liked parts of season 8 but several moments could have been handled better period.

I want to like both brothers.  I just relate to Dean more.  Sam's reactions...can't say it makes me like him very much.  But this was the point...to make the fans fight each other.  lol

[The Companion]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:17 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee - Now I'm pretty sure I suggested that you skip this episode especially. : D

If it makes you feel any better, this writer is gone after this season. Both episodes he wrote on his own I found awful, so I say good riddance.

Funny story: i went to TWoP to read the archived recap for some snark and I clicked on the forum where there was a really good post summarizing the frustrating way Dean is somehow always right with regard to trusting monsters and Dean's good intentions go bad. I am nodding along and I look at the poster. It was you. 😆

[gonzosgirrl]

Dean's instinct about monsters is one of the few great attributes they (mostly) let him keep. Since they won't let him be book smart or even socially adept most most of the time (unlike his polite, scholarly little brother), I can't begrudge him that, too. 

Spoiler

They can't even acknowledge that he looks appealing most of the time from here on out. Leave the guy something.

 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

Funny story: i went to TWoP to read the archived recap for some snark and I clicked on the forum where there was a really good post summarizing the frustrating way Dean is somehow always right with regard to trusting monsters and Dean's good intentions go bad. I am nodding along and I look at the poster. It was you. 😆

TWOP's recaps are still accessible but the forums aren't; they're closed down. Is this a rewatch and you read Awesome0's original post on TWOP when the episode first aired?

[The Companion]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

TWOP's recaps are still accessible but the forums aren't; they're closed down. Is this a rewatch and you read Awesome0's original post on TWOP when the episode first aired?

The forum is closed/inactive but archived. When I clicked the link it let me access the old thread in read only format. Or maybe it was a ghost. I didn't notice any cold spots, though. 😊

I am a first time watcher.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, The Companion said:

The forum is closed/inactive but archived. When I clicked the link it let me access the old thread in read only format. Or maybe it was a ghost. I didn't notice any cold spots, though. 😊

I am a first time watcher.

Can you share the link for the archived forums? I reread the recaps and I was a frequent poster on their forums ( for Scrubs ) and I remember when they were closing down and they said that the forums wouldn't be accessible to reread. I just tried to access the forums after I read your post but it took me to Domain For Sale page.

[The Companion]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean's instinct about monsters is one of the few great attributes they (mostly) let him keep. Since they won't let him be book smart or even socially adept most most of the time (unlike his polite, scholarly little brother), I can't begrudge him that, too. 

  Reveal spoiler

They can't even acknowledge that he looks appealing most of the time from here on out. Leave the guy something.

 

To more completely identify the issue described, it is that it makes the outcome predictable. That being said, I actually think his ability to read people and monsters is consistent with his ability to fit in/blend and his ability to flirt. And it is not an unusual attribute to be developed by a kid who is moved around a lot (e.g., army kids). So it isn't really a criticism of Dean so much as the effect it has on the ability to create dramatic tension. At least that is my read on the original comment and what I was finding resonated. 

[The Companion]

23 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Can you share the link for the archived forums? I reread the recaps and I was a frequent poster on their forums ( for Scrubs ) and I remember when they were closing down and they said that the forums wouldn't be accessible to reread. I just tried to access the forums after I read your post but it took me to Domain For Sale page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140330044841/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/forum/811-supernatural-general-gabbery/page-2

Here is the Supernatural section. It lets you click around and even has an archived home page. Warning, it made me intensely nostalgic.

 

ETA: It appears to be powered by wayback machine. I was really excited to see all that labor preserved. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by The Companion

[bethy]

Aw! The old thread titles - Hair Issues: Is that J-Pad or Cousin Itt. Sniff.

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean's instinct about monsters is one of the few great attributes they (mostly) let him keep. Since they won't let him be book smart or even socially adept most most of the time (unlike his polite, scholarly little brother), I can't begrudge him that, too. 

  Reveal spoiler

They can't even acknowledge that he looks appealing most of the time from here on out. Leave the guy something.

 

Spoiler

Sorry, this is in the wrong thread!

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Bergamot

[DeeDee79]

52 minutes ago, The Companion said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140330044841/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/forum/811-supernatural-general-gabbery/page-2

Here is the Supernatural section. It lets you click around and even has an archived home page. Warning, it made me intensely nostalgic.

 

ETA: It appears to be powered by wayback machine. I was really excited to see all that labor preserved. 

Cool, thanks for the link 👍

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

So it isn't really a criticism of Dean so much as the effect it has on the ability to create dramatic tension. At least that is my read on the original comment and what I was finding resonated.

Yes, that was my original meaning: that I was pretty much able to tell what was going to be the outcome based on Dean's (or Sam's or Castiel's) opinion of a monster or person (or

Spoiler

even situation later on.)

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

I am nodding along and I look at the poster. It was you. 😆

Heh, that seems like forever ago now.

Man, I miss those forums sometimes. I also haunted the Project Runway forums. We had an awesome quote thread going on there.

[Nick24]

On 7/19/2016 at 5:54 PM, catrox14 said:

re Dean and Benny's friendship.

This is one of the sad parts about the lack of interest and effort in expanding Dean's SL in Purgatory. 

But for me Dean and Benny were brothers-in-arms.  They had bonds that were forged in war essentially. . Dean lost pretty much everyone in some way shape or form before he went to Purgatory.  He wasn't about to lose Cas too. And since Dean is more or less a soldier he spent a year in combat without a break. Literally. And Benny proved to be a loyal brother in arms.

 

Sorry for reviving this thread, but I just want to strongly disagree with you on the bolded part.

IMO Soldiers do what they do because of the orders, not because of their own decisions. It's not about Dean at all.

Dean was fighting destiny all his life. Dean was making his own choices and he was doing what HE thought was necessary to do. 

This is why I am convinced, that Dean is a warrior. 

[DeeDee79]

35 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Sorry for reviving this thread, but I just want to strongly disagree with you on the bolded part.

IMO Soldiers do what they do because of the orders, not because of their own decisions. It's not about Dean at all.

Dean was fighting destiny all his life. Dean was making his own choices and he was doing what HE thought was necessary to do. 

This is why I am convinced, that Dean is a warrior. 

Speaking as a former soldier (US Army woot woot!) I agree with this assessment. The soldier description would be more apt for Castiel before TFW and his brethren before they were kicked out of Heaven by Metatron. They were blindly following God's orders. Dean was going by his instincts and skill to survive and get his friends out of Purgatory by any means necessary.

Edited May 22, 2022 by DeeDee79